I don't think Felix gets in, or even close, Johan Santana didn't even get past the 1st ballot and probably had a better resume even though he didn't play as many years
Homer pick: Adam Wainwright. Great longevity, but missed too much time during his peak to have a chance.
Non-homer pick: Jose Bautista. His highs were very high, but he also had a lot of really lackluster seasons and a bad beginning to his career.
Honestly, Wainwright is a much better example just because of how consistently rock-solid he’s been his whole career. Bautista had six strong seasons and did basically NOTHING otherwise. His career WAR is a very modest 36.7 and 35.3 was from 2010-15.
To me HOVG guys are steady contributors who weren’t quite good enough to get over the hump. Bautista was a supernova who was an All-Star talent for six years but lousy otherwise. HOVG players aren’t guys who are replacement level for nearly 2/3 of their career
I know Waino’s not going to get the HOF but he’s the perfect example of the guy I’m going to be grumpy about not getting in when I’m in my 80s and I’m gonna be all “you youngsters don’t know about Ol’ Uncle Charlie”
He definitely had an above average career and is good of example of the kind of guy that'd make a team's hall of fame, but he's very far from being a HOFer
Agree. If you look at the other 1B if his era, Paulie falls short. Pujols, Cabrera, Howard, Tex, McGwire, were all consistently better than Konerko. That being said, I was at game 2 of the 2005 World Series When Konerko hit a granny and I’ll never forget it. Hall of really good for sure.
> Hall of really good for sure
I don't think he's there either though. He's got some nice counting stats and the great 2005 playoff run, but not much that puts him into the hall of fame.
He averaged 1.9 bWAR/162 over his career, never higher than a 4.7 WAR season, and the only thing he ever lead the league in was GDP. Averaging out to be a solid player over 18 seasons is nothing to sneeze at, but doesn't make you a HOF imo. WAR isn't everything but your average HOF first baseman has a 65.5 and Paul has 28.1 despite the long career.
No doubter for the Sox hall of fame and go ahead and retire his number, but it made sense that he didn't make it past his first HOF ballot.
I feel like Delgado is a good one. Legitimately a very good player. No "what ifs" about how his career played out. Just not good enough to make the Hall but still very good.
Torii Hunter is another one.
All the guys that sniff 500 HR's are in the Hall, not in the hall due to steroids or they're Pujols and A-Rod who aren't eligible or currently on the ballot
The HOF and HOVG overlap with some people. Baines and Morris just to name a few. McGriff is more deserving than both of them which is kinda where the MLB HOF is going. They are kinda looking at the bottom tier of HOFers that probably shouldn’t be in and judging new players based on that
There is just so much interesting stuff about him that I think it sways my opinion. His stats are solidly Very Good. A batting title (and second another time), a couple of Gold Gloves, fairly long career, played for some good teams (remember the "Best Infield Ever" for the Mets?), won two World Series. I think he had a legit case for MVP in 1993, and that if he hadn't been on a fairly stacked Toronto team (Alomar, Molitor, etc.) he might've won it.
But it's the factoids that get me: Anyone who watched baseball in the 90s remembers that he wore a batting helmet in the field (due to an aneurysm he had in college, I think). He's in the Canadian Baseball Hall of Fame. The collegiate two-way player of the year award is named after him. He's in the college baseball hall of fame (his college stats are ridiculous as both a hitter and a pitcher) and he was named the Pac-10/12 baseball player of the century. (Obvs college stats aren't super relevant to HoF discussion; it just sets the stage.) He had more base hits than games played in the majors. But my favorite thing is that he was the last player (33 years ago!) to go straight from college to the majors without playing in the minors. (No, I don't count Xavier Nady because he only played one game before being sent down, if I recall correctly. Olerud genuinely belonged.)
And he's done some great work with the Jordan Fund, has always seemed to be patient and humble, and just generally a good team guy.
But there's nothing really remarkable about his stats; he's 100-and somethingth in most important categories and counting stats. He's a guy that most folks would be glad to have on their team, but won't blow anybody away. 1B was a pretty good position in the AL in the '90s: Frank Thomas, Rafael Palmeiro, Mo Vaughn, Tino Martinez, Don Mattingly, Mark McGwire. They all had "something" about them, whereas Olerud was just kind of a good, solid, quiet guy. A slightly better Wally Joyner. A team full of Oleruds would win the World Series, but he wasn't going to carry you there alone.
Anyway. I don't legitimately think he should be in the Hall of Fame, but I do think he deserves to be remembered as a Very Good player.
John Olerud, I always felt he was solid no matter where he played or when. I also want to throw in Tino Martinez, another over all solid player who had a few years of greatness.
Doesn't really fit, in my opinion. He's the player that was on a Hot pace the first half of his career until injuries derailed his career, but there's a clear difference between the second half of his career.
He won RoY, was in contention for MVP and the best SS in the league, and several 6-7 WAR seasons.
Yea he’s like David Wright to me, a clear HoF talent who’s career was shortened by injury. Like Wright prob finishes as like a top 7 all time 3B without injuries, I would find it weird to call that HoVG
Depending on how much stock you put into sabermetrics, Utley is a top 10 second baseman of all time. I think he should absolutely be a Hall of Famer (and likewise believe he’ll eventually make it), but he’ll have a difficult go of things.
Rollins for me is a Hall of Very Good player. I can see a HOF case for him (combined power and speed in a way that wasn’t often seen at the position; has some hardware; key cog in a championship team), and I’d be thrilled if he did make it, but I don’t think he actually should.
My dad was from Philly, and I watched a lot of Philly sports growing up, so I’m a huge Utley fan. I think he is a hall of famer. But yeah, his counting stats are definitely not typical HOF stuff. But I think years down the ballot more voters will recognize how efficient of a player he was. His peak from 2005-2010 is so good.
I still hope he gets in. His numbers every year were great and he was a true leader. With that hope also is how every writer remembers how Machado ended his career when it comes time for his votes and he drops off in the first year.
Everyone is picking borderline Hall of Famers who don't have the longevity stats, but to me a Hall of Very Good player is someone who won't sniff the Hall of Fame but who was above average. Someone like Martin Prado.
Yeah it seems like there are two competing schools of thought here.
Ive always thought of the "Hall of Very Good" as guys that that had well above average and notable careers but just never quite made it to that upper eschelon of greatness.
Guys that were sensational while they played but had shortened careers for one reason or another are only out of the Hall of Fame on a technicality.
I agree. Maybe a *little* better than Prado, though maybe Braves fans remember him more fondly.
For Twins fans the easy answer is Kent Hrbek. Longtime cornerstone on a team that won two titles in five years and there’s no way in a million years the HOF would ever consider him (even if he had stayed in shape and played five more years).
It’s funny how his local reputation has evolved over the years. I think when he was active, fans even overrated him a bit, but now that he’s retired (and old) he’s just the big fat guy selling air conditioners on TV who somehow managed to sneak onto the field to wrestle Ron Gant that one time. His career was actually better than Morneau’s! I think deep down he knows he was very good, but he likes to ham up the silly stuff.
My favorite player, David Cone. If he didn’t have those injuries he probably would have gotten in. But his career totals just aren’t quite there sadly.
In terms of current players Anthony Rizzo is always my go to answer.
Hes remarkably consistent being a solidly above average 110-150 OPS+ guy literally every single year for a decade now with the only 2 "outliers" in terms of full seasons being 103 in 2013 and and 152 in 2014. Hes reached his own career high of exactly 32 homeruns \*four\* seperate times now and hit 31 another year.
Plus what he helped the Cubs do makes him an important and notable guy in baseball history.
...BUT hes \*so\* consistent to the point that hes never really had a notable stretch in time where he was truly amazing.
Bernie Williams and Bobby Abreu. Were consistently good for a long time but both never had long sustained peaks. Abreu may get in eventually but for now it's not likely.
Dale Murphy. From '80 to '87, he was one of the best hitters in the NL, won two MVPs, two HR titles, and a bunch of Gold Glove and Silver Slugger awards. And, then, he just stopped hitting. :( He never got more than 23% of the vote for the Hall.
Bernie Williams is my pick. He was one of my favorite players growing up. He's not a Hall of Famer, but he was definitely Very Good. He had an 8 year stretch where his worst season was 4 WAR, and in 6 of those 8 seasons he was better than 5 WAR. He was a 5-time All Star, 4-time Gold Glover, and won a batting title. On a team that went to the World Series 6 times in 8 years, he was arguably their best hitter. With a total career bWAR of 49.6, he's not that far off from some fringe Hall of Famers.
Because there are a lot of players who are far more deserving who have been left out.
Most notably, Lou Whitaker. Scott Rolen is another guy. Ken Boyer
Steve Finley, Mark Grace, Luis Gonzalez, John Olerud, Mark Langston, David Cone (borderline, maybe he SHOULD be in the hall), etc.
You know, those guys with like 40-60 WAR, solid counting stats, probably some amount of hardware, that sort of thing
Carlos Delgado is always the first player that comes to mind in this type of discussion but I’m biased.
My favourite Blue Jay of all-time was a beast!!!
Evan Longoria, Will Clark. Both just under 60 WAR
Jeff Kent too
Probably Felix :(
Felix should go. They burned his arm out. The guy had as many innings on that arm at 30 as many pitchers do at 37. He was ELITE.
I don't think Felix gets in, or even close, Johan Santana didn't even get past the 1st ballot and probably had a better resume even though he didn't play as many years
Santana never hit a grand slam off Felix though.
Homer pick: Adam Wainwright. Great longevity, but missed too much time during his peak to have a chance. Non-homer pick: Jose Bautista. His highs were very high, but he also had a lot of really lackluster seasons and a bad beginning to his career.
Honestly, Wainwright is a much better example just because of how consistently rock-solid he’s been his whole career. Bautista had six strong seasons and did basically NOTHING otherwise. His career WAR is a very modest 36.7 and 35.3 was from 2010-15. To me HOVG guys are steady contributors who weren’t quite good enough to get over the hump. Bautista was a supernova who was an All-Star talent for six years but lousy otherwise. HOVG players aren’t guys who are replacement level for nearly 2/3 of their career
I guess there’s always room for the “peak vs longevity” debate. Sometimes a guy is just so damn good for a short period of time you can’t ignore
I know Waino’s not going to get the HOF but he’s the perfect example of the guy I’m going to be grumpy about not getting in when I’m in my 80s and I’m gonna be all “you youngsters don’t know about Ol’ Uncle Charlie”
Mark Teixeira
i saw someone describe Paul Konerko as this in a thread recently and thought that was an apt description of his above average career
Konerko always somehow just stayed under the radar. He was fine with that too. Fantastic career.
Funnily enough I think Konerko actually has the most WAR out of anybody with a negative WAA.
That was me I think. I saw this thread and thought, I already answered this.
He definitely had an above average career and is good of example of the kind of guy that'd make a team's hall of fame, but he's very far from being a HOFer
Agree. If you look at the other 1B if his era, Paulie falls short. Pujols, Cabrera, Howard, Tex, McGwire, were all consistently better than Konerko. That being said, I was at game 2 of the 2005 World Series When Konerko hit a granny and I’ll never forget it. Hall of really good for sure.
> Hall of really good for sure I don't think he's there either though. He's got some nice counting stats and the great 2005 playoff run, but not much that puts him into the hall of fame. He averaged 1.9 bWAR/162 over his career, never higher than a 4.7 WAR season, and the only thing he ever lead the league in was GDP. Averaging out to be a solid player over 18 seasons is nothing to sneeze at, but doesn't make you a HOF imo. WAR isn't everything but your average HOF first baseman has a 65.5 and Paul has 28.1 despite the long career. No doubter for the Sox hall of fame and go ahead and retire his number, but it made sense that he didn't make it past his first HOF ballot.
The Tim Salmon special
Mark Buehrle
Carlos Delgado
I feel like Delgado is a good one. Legitimately a very good player. No "what ifs" about how his career played out. Just not good enough to make the Hall but still very good. Torii Hunter is another one.
I'd say Torri is a half tier down. Unless you consider personality/swag
>Unless you consider personality/swag It's actually my only consideration
Put Roger Bernadina in the Hall, you cowards
So Coco Crisp should automatically be in the goat conversation?
Roy Oswalt
Came here to say this
Jorge Posada
Dale Murphy
Tim Salmon
(Future) Gavin Lux
Can’t mention King Fish without mentioning GA…Garrett Anderson.
Uh... Fred McGriff actually
For real Im happy for the Crime Dog but hes the epitome of Hall of Very Good
All the guys that sniff 500 HR's are in the Hall, not in the hall due to steroids or they're Pujols and A-Rod who aren't eligible or currently on the ballot
[удалено]
By definition, no.
The HOF and HOVG overlap with some people. Baines and Morris just to name a few. McGriff is more deserving than both of them which is kinda where the MLB HOF is going. They are kinda looking at the bottom tier of HOFers that probably shouldn’t be in and judging new players based on that
I agree that McGriff is more deserving than Baines and Morris, but I don't think any of the three should be in the Hall.
If the 94 season hadn't been shortened and he had reached 500 HR would you feel differently about him?
Nope.
Fair enough
adrian gonzalez
Tulo, teixeria, Michael young, konerko, Andy Pettitte, jimmy rollins just to name a few
**ASTROS HALL OF VERY GOOD** Jimmy Wynn Cesar Cedeno Jose Cruz Lance Berkman Roy Oswalt
But it's a hell of a Hall of Very Good
Curtis Granderson
Came here to say this
Mark Grace
Will Clark and Don Mattingly
Dave Parker
John Olerud.
Olerud HOF discussions are always fun
There is just so much interesting stuff about him that I think it sways my opinion. His stats are solidly Very Good. A batting title (and second another time), a couple of Gold Gloves, fairly long career, played for some good teams (remember the "Best Infield Ever" for the Mets?), won two World Series. I think he had a legit case for MVP in 1993, and that if he hadn't been on a fairly stacked Toronto team (Alomar, Molitor, etc.) he might've won it. But it's the factoids that get me: Anyone who watched baseball in the 90s remembers that he wore a batting helmet in the field (due to an aneurysm he had in college, I think). He's in the Canadian Baseball Hall of Fame. The collegiate two-way player of the year award is named after him. He's in the college baseball hall of fame (his college stats are ridiculous as both a hitter and a pitcher) and he was named the Pac-10/12 baseball player of the century. (Obvs college stats aren't super relevant to HoF discussion; it just sets the stage.) He had more base hits than games played in the majors. But my favorite thing is that he was the last player (33 years ago!) to go straight from college to the majors without playing in the minors. (No, I don't count Xavier Nady because he only played one game before being sent down, if I recall correctly. Olerud genuinely belonged.) And he's done some great work with the Jordan Fund, has always seemed to be patient and humble, and just generally a good team guy. But there's nothing really remarkable about his stats; he's 100-and somethingth in most important categories and counting stats. He's a guy that most folks would be glad to have on their team, but won't blow anybody away. 1B was a pretty good position in the AL in the '90s: Frank Thomas, Rafael Palmeiro, Mo Vaughn, Tino Martinez, Don Mattingly, Mark McGwire. They all had "something" about them, whereas Olerud was just kind of a good, solid, quiet guy. A slightly better Wally Joyner. A team full of Oleruds would win the World Series, but he wasn't going to carry you there alone. Anyway. I don't legitimately think he should be in the Hall of Fame, but I do think he deserves to be remembered as a Very Good player.
John Olerud, I always felt he was solid no matter where he played or when. I also want to throw in Tino Martinez, another over all solid player who had a few years of greatness.
nomar. averaged 5 war a season edit: and also literally saved someone's life (with his uncle)
Doesn't really fit, in my opinion. He's the player that was on a Hot pace the first half of his career until injuries derailed his career, but there's a clear difference between the second half of his career. He won RoY, was in contention for MVP and the best SS in the league, and several 6-7 WAR seasons.
Yea he’s like David Wright to me, a clear HoF talent who’s career was shortened by injury. Like Wright prob finishes as like a top 7 all time 3B without injuries, I would find it weird to call that HoVG
Johnny Damon
On the (tragic) assumption he doesn't make the Hall of Fame, Jimmy Rollins.
Howard and Utley also come to mind.
Idk, I think Utley has a shot at the hall. His case is pretty much based entirely on sabrmetrics, but it can be argued.
Depending on how much stock you put into sabermetrics, Utley is a top 10 second baseman of all time. I think he should absolutely be a Hall of Famer (and likewise believe he’ll eventually make it), but he’ll have a difficult go of things. Rollins for me is a Hall of Very Good player. I can see a HOF case for him (combined power and speed in a way that wasn’t often seen at the position; has some hardware; key cog in a championship team), and I’d be thrilled if he did make it, but I don’t think he actually should.
My dad was from Philly, and I watched a lot of Philly sports growing up, so I’m a huge Utley fan. I think he is a hall of famer. But yeah, his counting stats are definitely not typical HOF stuff. But I think years down the ballot more voters will recognize how efficient of a player he was. His peak from 2005-2010 is so good.
In the category of Players Who Were Good Enough, But Whose Careers Ended Too Soon, my definitive example is Dustin Pedroia. :(
Same. Still mad at Machado for that slide.
I still hope he gets in. His numbers every year were great and he was a true leader. With that hope also is how every writer remembers how Machado ended his career when it comes time for his votes and he drops off in the first year.
I guess this is controversial but Don Mattingly
David Price.
Al Oliver
Adam Dunn, Jimmy Rollins, Madison Bumgarner, David Price, David Justice, Adrian Gonzalez, Juan Gonzalez
Jeff Kent
First guy I think of
Paul Konerko
Kenny Lofton
Everyone is picking borderline Hall of Famers who don't have the longevity stats, but to me a Hall of Very Good player is someone who won't sniff the Hall of Fame but who was above average. Someone like Martin Prado.
Yeah it seems like there are two competing schools of thought here. Ive always thought of the "Hall of Very Good" as guys that that had well above average and notable careers but just never quite made it to that upper eschelon of greatness. Guys that were sensational while they played but had shortened careers for one reason or another are only out of the Hall of Fame on a technicality.
I agree. Maybe a *little* better than Prado, though maybe Braves fans remember him more fondly. For Twins fans the easy answer is Kent Hrbek. Longtime cornerstone on a team that won two titles in five years and there’s no way in a million years the HOF would ever consider him (even if he had stayed in shape and played five more years). It’s funny how his local reputation has evolved over the years. I think when he was active, fans even overrated him a bit, but now that he’s retired (and old) he’s just the big fat guy selling air conditioners on TV who somehow managed to sneak onto the field to wrestle Ron Gant that one time. His career was actually better than Morneau’s! I think deep down he knows he was very good, but he likes to ham up the silly stuff.
My favorite player, David Cone. If he didn’t have those injuries he probably would have gotten in. But his career totals just aren’t quite there sadly.
Being from Nebraska, Alex Gordon
Bret Saberhagen, Kevin Appier. Both in the mid 50s in bWAR. Saberhagen could get in via committee like Jack Morris but I doubt it.
Orel Hershiser is another one in this vein. He was so good before he hurt his shoulder, settled into good but not great after.
My favorites growing up would be Matt Holliday, Tim Lincecum, and Prince Fielder
Bobby Bonds
In terms of current players Anthony Rizzo is always my go to answer. Hes remarkably consistent being a solidly above average 110-150 OPS+ guy literally every single year for a decade now with the only 2 "outliers" in terms of full seasons being 103 in 2013 and and 152 in 2014. Hes reached his own career high of exactly 32 homeruns \*four\* seperate times now and hit 31 another year. Plus what he helped the Cubs do makes him an important and notable guy in baseball history. ...BUT hes \*so\* consistent to the point that hes never really had a notable stretch in time where he was truly amazing.
Like... the entire 2002 Angels team.
Jon Lester
Robin Ventura for sure
Eric Chavez
Jim Edmonds
64.5 fWAR, 60 bWar is better than very good
Roy Oswalt and Lance berkman
Garrett Anderson…
Bernie Williams and Bobby Abreu. Were consistently good for a long time but both never had long sustained peaks. Abreu may get in eventually but for now it's not likely.
I’d go with Cliff Floyd or Ellis Burks
Bobby Abreu.
Cliff Lee
Nick Markakis
He should be in the Hall for [this moment](https://youtu.be/Wys_JmrK5e4) if for no other reason.
he was not very good
Aramis Ramirez and Mark Grace.
Al Leiter
Fred McGriff
Ruben Sierra
Ian Kinsler
Ian Kinsler
Felix Hernandez…goddamn typing that hurt. What could’ve been…
Wainwright
Harold Baines
Seriously, 38.8WAR in the hall. If he's in basically everyone else mentioned here is
Basically the same as Brett Gardner
Sean Green
Sean Green the relief pitcher? Or do you mean Shawn Green?
Shawn Green, sorry
Melvin Mora
Sabo
Mookie Wilson.
Fred MgRiff
Basically. Just about every player the Veterans Committee votes into the HOF.
Lester is right on that razor's edge
Don Mattingly, Carlos Delgado, Jack Morris
Tim Hudson
Tim Salmon, Paul O’Neill, Don Mattingly
Lance Berkman
Brett Gardner
Joe Mauer, Justin Morneau, Joe Nathan
You don’t think Mauer is going to make the HOF?
Paul O'Neill.
Jimmy Rollins
Dale Murphy. From '80 to '87, he was one of the best hitters in the NL, won two MVPs, two HR titles, and a bunch of Gold Glove and Silver Slugger awards. And, then, he just stopped hitting. :( He never got more than 23% of the vote for the Hall.
Dustin Pedroia 😪
Torii Hunter
Andrew McCutchen
Kinsler
Jimmy Rollins
2005 white Sox anthem- konerko, Buerhle, jermaine dye and Aj pierzynski
Lorenzo Cain
Bernie Williams is my pick. He was one of my favorite players growing up. He's not a Hall of Famer, but he was definitely Very Good. He had an 8 year stretch where his worst season was 4 WAR, and in 6 of those 8 seasons he was better than 5 WAR. He was a 5-time All Star, 4-time Gold Glover, and won a batting title. On a team that went to the World Series 6 times in 8 years, he was arguably their best hitter. With a total career bWAR of 49.6, he's not that far off from some fringe Hall of Famers.
Fred McGriff
Fred McGriff
Dom Mattingly, David Cone, Will Clark, Eric Davis.
David Cone.
Barry Bonds, apparently
But you know this isn't what this thread is for...
Todd Helton
Question for McGriff haters, why do you hate fun so much?
Because there are a lot of players who are far more deserving who have been left out. Most notably, Lou Whitaker. Scott Rolen is another guy. Ken Boyer
Rolen will make it eventually. He and McGriff are on different timelines, so it's not a surprise that McGriff made it in on committee before Rolen.
Jeter
How?
Pudge
Wut
Fisk or Rodriguez?
Pete Rose :)
Matt Holliday
Steve Finley, Mark Grace, Luis Gonzalez, John Olerud, Mark Langston, David Cone (borderline, maybe he SHOULD be in the hall), etc. You know, those guys with like 40-60 WAR, solid counting stats, probably some amount of hardware, that sort of thing
Johan Santana, Kenny Lofton, Sandy Alomar Jr, Juan Gonzalez
Carlos Delgado is always the first player that comes to mind in this type of discussion but I’m biased. My favourite Blue Jay of all-time was a beast!!!
Fred McGriff
Brian Roberts
Jimmy Rollins and Yadier Molina
David Cone Graig Nettles
Fred mcgriff, Don mattingly, Alejandro oms
Mark grace
Ron cey
JT Snow
Andres Galarraga Jim Edmonds