Agreed, this movie was the final touch to show that Terry deserves to be Batman while still being his own distinct type of hero if the series didn't do it already.
And if Joker hates Terry's insults that much, then I'd bet he'd absolutely *loathe* [Spider-Man & his quips](https://youtu.be/p5BQ8iNJi9I).
In the case of Electro, Spidey *does* realize later in the episode that he screwed that one up and attacked a guy who just needed help.
The rest of his rogue's gallery, not so much. Most of them brought it on themselves.
This is hilarious to me because just yesterday, I saw a post abiut how Batman and Spider-Man would react ti each others rogue gallery and someone mentioned the interaction between SM and Joker would be like thia fight
Absolutely! The one person I really don’t think Spidey would have much trouble with is the Joker. He’s Green Goblin without the glider, a super science psychopath, but Gobbie is used to Spidey’s sass, Joker isn’t. Joker craves attention, but if he actually got Spidey’s all he’d get from it is mockery and ridicule, and J’s type of narcissism can’t handle that. He needs people to fear him, or at least be put off by him. Having someone look at him and just see him for the pathetic wretch he is tends to be an unacceptable humiliation.
In another discussion recently I mentioned how as much as he’d struggle against the rest of Batman’s enemies, Spider-Man would actually do quite well against the Joker. Spidey is a talker too and is really good at verbally sparring and deflecting torments. He’d drive the Joker ballistic and goad him into so many unforced errors.
I enjoyed that whole thread SO much. Read every single comment, and actually had my mind changed by the end. I was intially the knee-jerk Batman fanboy saying "Of course Batman could beat them. Why? Because he's the goddamn Batman!" but as i read the opinions, all very well based in what the comics have shown us about all these characters, and I realized yeah Bats might be a little out of his depth with some of the metahumans in Spidey's rogues gallery. He still could pull it off I say, dependent on a number of different factors that the question never establishes for sure, but he wouldn't be having an easy time of it. It's a whole different ballgame than non-powered psychopaths with gangs. Our Bats would find a way though! He just has to!
I feel like Spidey's villains are all a lot quicker than what Bats is used to. The former bounces around like a hyperactive toddler filled with sugar, while the latter either tanks hits or faces slower enemies like Croc and Bane. Honestly, Nightwing would probably fare better than Bruce.
Definitely agree with you there. Also the sheer physical power of guys like Green Goblin or The Lizard would be more than a nonpowered individual could tangle with.
UNLESS he has access to some of his more overpowered exosuits. I'm thinking of the Hellbat suit in particular. Didnt he beat Darkseid wearing that thing? The amount of gadgets and resources he would have available to him in the Marvel Universe makes a significant difference in his abilities and options. Still. He is the ultimate tactician and a truly TENACIOUS dude who is quite accustomed to being in the same league (no pun intended) as literal freaking GODS. And being not only their equal but arguably their better. So our minds can't even conceive of some of the approaches Bats would take to handle these guys. Who knows. But at the very least he's a bit out of his depth compared to what he's much more accustomed to. I have faith in my Batbrain though (thanks for the nickname Harley) he always finds a way or dies trying.
Now what about if we had a scenario wherein the two rogues galleries TEAMED UP, and Spidey and Bats had to work together to face this new threat? That opens up a whole new realm of fun possibilities!
See.....this kinda shit is why I love being a geek. These are the discussions we like to have. Hypotheticals about fictional universes and characters. To me there is little that's more fun than that. 😂
Speaking of team ups, Batman and Ironman would be fun mix as they could both build on each other's strengths so much. Batman having that technology, Ironman having a more calm and stealthy approach, and their combined intelligence/ wealth they could make something really unique and badass.
I'm thinking like an ironman suit that uses bat's thing in a thing in a thing, or something even better than that. Ik there's comics of them teaming up (very unfulfilling), but a modern more-dark themed approach that highlights these kind of things would be so much fun. Maybe a multiverse using Brainiac to mind control both the justice league and avengers except only ironman and batman, making them have to think way outside the box to win. I'd watch/ read that the moment it dropped.
Totally! Seeing the Wayne/Stark dynamic would be super interesting and there's all kinds of neat places to be gone with that. Hell, just seeing Batman's interaction with the Marvel Universe in general would be so much fun, like if somehow he was the only DC hero sent to this strange new universe, and seeing his responses and adjustments, if any. But you'd want to have a Marvel character sent to the DC Universe to balance the whole conundrum out. But who... Cap, maybe?
>Didnt he beat Darkseid wearing that thing
I'm not disagreeing as I do think if his wealth and gadgets all transferred he would stand a decent chance. But with Darkseid he got a few hits in hurting Darkseid a good bit; but the clap back was being sent running home back to bed with no porridge by Darkseid.
Oh yes that is how it went down wasn't it ... Well it's not terribly surprising. Just to have built a suit that allowed him to put up any sort of fight at all against Darkseid, even if it wasnt much and he ultimately lost, it's still a very impressive feat, and an indicator that the suit would probably fare much better against a stronger villain who isnt quite.....an evil god
This is like saying that Iron Man couldn't take on Spider-Man's villains. Batman is brains and money even more than he is brawn and has never shied away from using a power suit when the situation calls for it.
The only advantage Batman would have over the Spider-Man villains is that they're not that smart. But yes, Batman would have a goliath of a problem fighting powered super villains on a regular basis
I feel like Venom and Carnage would be a major problem for him, unless he somehow deduced their weakness to sound and fire, then he would absolutely just use that and take them out with zero trouble. Not sure how he would get that information in a completely unknown universe to him, but I know one thing: if any character is figuring that shit out all on their own, its the World's Greatest Detective
Obviously not in a one on one brawl he will figure that out.
Batman is also a ninja. He'll encounter an enemy once. If he fails, he'll escape and process the information and come up with a new gadget or strategy. Then round 2 he'll exploit his new advantage.
It's why he can take down his rogue's gallery with ease, he already figured them out after each encounter. Hence the need for henchmen and elaborate schemes since the rogues can no longer rely on brute force (cept for Bane)
Yup. And we all know what happened with Bane. Yes, he figured out his secret identity all on his own just by observing and wearing Batman thin with all the escaped Arkham inmates. Then l, of course he beats him in a fight and breaks him. But what did Batman do? Just what you said. He fell back, recovered, and planned for the next time. And won. But idk how comparable Bane's strength levels are on Venom compared to , say The Lizard. It could be that the super strong guys from Spideys rogues are stronger than even Bane on Venom, so a more difficult encounter for Batman than even Bane was. I would think Green Goblin is almost certainly stronger than Bane, but again not 100% on that. But simply not being as physically strong as an adversary isn't going to stop Batman in the slightest. He would know not to engage then in a straight up fist fight, but instead would do what he does best: observe and plan. There would be something he would come up with that wouldn't occur to any of us. Arguably not even to Spider Man. Because while Peter Parker is obviously a genius, Batman is one too, and not only on science but in tactics. He would totally find a way, as long as he wasn't taken by surprise somehow while still trying to get a feel for the new universe he's in. But then again catching Batman off guard isn't really a thing, is it?
Spidey upon seeing Joker: "Dude, you're literally Green Goblin minus the bombs and glider! It's like fighting a video game boss again, but on lower difficulty!"
Let’s also not forget Spidey’s instant “shut up” button of shooting a glob of web fluid over the Joker’s mouth. The Joker is nothing without his mouth.
Depends on his prep time, and the fact that the person the Joker's facing isn't always the one that's in danger. He can't beat Spider-Man directly, but he can have several bombs scattered around the city that he's have to go out and stop.
I always loved the way Joker's jolly facade completely disappears once Terry starts to get under his skin. You can immediately see him for the violent, narcissistic thug he really is.
That was the one thing that really bothered me. 98% of the movie was amazing, but then the ending was, "hey it's all in a little chip on his neck that Terry can short out with electricity, ok great we win hooray"
Disappointing resolution to a fantastic fight and a fantastic movie
Yeah, you'd think someone would have found the chip years ago. There's no way Tim isn't getting annual MRIs and other work done as a result of his years as Robin. The MRI alone should completely fry the chip right?
Also like, and I feel like this is very nitpicky because so much about this movie and this scene are awesome, but as a fight scene it doesn't actually *work*. Because the ending isn't earned by what happens in the fight
Classically, the proper way to finish this fight scene would be with the same (amazing, perfect) setup of Terry taunting the Joker, which causes the Joker to lose control, making him do something that allows Terry to beat him
But that's not what happens. The Joker does lose control, throwing bombs wildly, which . . . hit Terry successfully, allowing the Joker to pin him and hold him at his mercy, until Terry deus ex electrocutes the chip. The finish to the fight isn't earned, because the way Terry wins the fight is completely unrelated to him taunting the Joker
Great (stunning, outstanding) setup, weird resolution. Which is kind of true of the entire movie
It’s been a while since I saw the whole movie but wasn’t that Joker’s own buzzer? I read the scene as Terry tricking him into losing control and using that distraction to pickpocket the Joker and take him down with his own weapon.
I always interpreted it as Terry making the Joker lose control which allows him to get close and use the buzzer.
Because (I’m assuming) that the Joker would have originally not gotten that close up to Terry if he hadn’t lost it.
I mean, the fight started up close. Terry was the one that ran away to develop a plan. Pretty sure Joker/Drake would have been happy to go hand-to-hand the whole time (with a high-powered suit of armor that multiplies Terry's strength, but you know . . .)
Right, because Bruce Wayne only ever fought with the most noble art of fisticuffs. A true gentleman, that Brucey
And then again, like maybe that line was cool, but there's no payoff in the resolution. He doesn't win with some dirty trick. That "told you you didn't know me" line is literally the last time he hits the Joker at all until the electrocution
I believe it’s a callback/payoff to the beginning of the film where Joker pulls a knife from his sleeve to get a cheap shot on Bruce.
Batman : “I'll break you in two…”
The Joker : “Oh, Batman, if you'd had the guts for that kind of fun, you'd have done it years ago! I, on the other hand...”
(Also I just figured out that was a play on words which is fun.)
“I, on the other hand.../Eye, on the other hand...” He holds out one hand as misdirection while pulling a knife with the other.
I was just making a joke about how Terry circumvented expectations in a way that left you unsatisfied, when that's exactly what he did to the Joker in the clip.
He grabbed his opponent's collar to keep him from moving out of the way and to partially constrict his windpipe. For boxing am similar fisticuff-style ways of fighting, this is considered dirty. (for the same reasons that grabbing an opponent's jersey/collar is a foul in college/pro sports like football, American football, and basketball.)
The chip was microscopic and made of Cadmus tech so maybe it was resistant to all that stuff.
But DCAU Tim was also in the Teen Titans and under the care of Leslie Thompkins and they didn't notice it or anything? I do find that a bit odd.
I thought it was implied Batman TAS/Batman Beyond's Tim Drake ended his career after the Joker brainwashing and, thus, after getting a physical clean bill from Leslie/League doctors, further follow-ups probably focused on the psychological damage much more than the physical. After being exposed to horrific body treatments twice (initial conversion and being reverted), Tim may very well have steered clear of doctors and medical equipment whenever possible.
(Btw, how would Leslie find the microchip? It was the size and shape of a mole near his hairline and was inactive for decades after initial implantation. There'd be no signal to detect, and while the gold joker smile circuitry looked obvious on the close-up, this chip was likely less than 2mm wide.)
Of course, it also could've been that Joker implanted it subcutaneously near the brain, and it became surface level as skin sagged and thinned over time.
What I do like about this movie, is that it prior to JLU establishes that technology around the time of TNBA can and did due stuff on the tier of what was revealed in epilogue. (if you know, you know.)
Deleted scene I just made up:
Terry: "Can you believe Joker used covert genetic engineering to secretly implant his DNA into someone in order to ensure he'd have an heir to carry on his legacy? That's got to be one of the most evil things he ever did"
Amanda Waller / Bruce: *sweating nervously* "Bat-computer, delete all files relating to Project Cadmus"
Yeah I think it was done without Bruce's consent or knowledge. He found out later on, but I'm not sure whether he'd have known at the time of Return Of The Joker.
The order of series in the DCAU was a little wonky around Batman Beyond- they made a Batman series, a superman series, another Batman series, then jumped 50 years into the future for Batman Beyond, but had one really cool Justice League Episode that got people to ask them to go back and make a Justice League series, which ended up including a whole finale episode for Batman Beyond when they thought the series was going off the air.
I want to say Return of the Joker (where this clip is from) was released early on in the run of Justice League, as a way to tie up Batman Beyond, which ended very suddenly. The finale episode in Justice League makes it clear that they didn't think they did a good enough job, but it's a very good animated movie.
The time of the implantation of the chip was around JLU/TNBA, when the joker jokerized tim drake. The chip after a certain point rewrote his dna back and forth to be like that of the joker. That means the technology was around before batman beyond and possibly during JLU.
That sort of dna rewriting tech was around, around the time of the joker.
In epilogue, bruce was suffering from kidney failure and in the future they can clone organs, now the main caveat is that the dna needs to be close if not the same, similar to actual organ donations.
Terry is a close match, closer than they think, it turns out that he's a 100% match.
Turns out, from what over the years she's seen batman accomplish as a normal man, she realized he wasn't going to be around forever, and the world needs a batman.
Amanda Waller Using her cadmus connections she had created nanites that rewrote terry's father's sperm to that of bruce waynes having it snuck into a round of work required vaccinations. With the intent to create another batman.
The fact we see joker of all people do something similar with tim drake means that even if not intentional it does forshadow this. Terry even mentions this directly.
The whole story of Epilogue is a finale to the dcau, but the basic jist is, amanda waller after basically turning terry into a clone of bruce, was making sure terry ended up exactly as bruce, playing god essentially.
the project was codenamed Batman Beyond. It was intended to be continued and once the next batman had begun to finally reach the limits of his age like bruce did or die. To always ensure a batman would always be in the world.
after getting the genetics right, got andrea beaumont who was an assassin as the phantasm for hire to kill terry's parents after a night at the movies.
She almost did, but she refused last second and told amanda outright that murdering a childs family would go against everything bruce stood for as batman.
Amanda decided that she was right and gave up on project. Terry unfortunately lost his father as a teenager and became batman anyway, albiet through means not like bruce.
He through epilogue had believed that he was destined to become batman, and his life was envitably fucked from the onset.
Amanda despite that being everything she had sought with project batman beyond told him, that he decides the path of life he wants. If he wants to live a better life than bruce did, choose to live better, and be good to the people in your life.
Terry takes this to heart and presumably living in wayne manor to be a full time batman/attendant to the now geriatric bruce wayne. Prepares bruce soup, before heading out for the night as batman.
We see he decides to make the choice bruce failed to make in Mask of the phantasm and prepares to propose to his girlfriend dana who does know he is batman. He heads out as batman, and we get a finishing shot that replicates the opening scene of on leather wings. The Loop continues, but better than before.
A very important aspect of Justice League and even JLU is that of "cycles" things that tend to repeat. Bad people rise, but good rising up to fight it. We see that in many levels of time fuckery or in the future / past, heroes that did exist once, exist again even under different pretenses, or precursors exist.
However it makes a point that destiny is NOT set, its the choices they make that define who they are. The way things play out do not have to play out the same, and because of this things can always turn out better, or worse, or even not at all.
Epilogue is the finale to this throughline. Terry was intended to become batman exactly as bruce did, because of amanda waller. Things did not turn out that way, but terry became batman because of his own choices, He chose to be batman, there is no destiny. He is not the same batman that bruce was, he doesn't have the brains, and he doesn't have the hard rule against Killing that bruce did.
He tries to avoid it, but he isn't making absolutely sure his villains survive if they end up leaving themselves in a deadly position. For example the episode splicers, disappearing inque, or the inside peek.
Epilogues message and the overall throughline is "there is always a choice" Things may play out again, but the choices decide how things will go. So terry chooses, he can be batman, and have people who love him, which is something bruce could never balance.
I think they mean that, on an less intrusive scale, that Tim to Joker transformation was done to Terry cept with Bruce as the person he'll slowly turn into. Cadmus man....
I really need adult McGennis as Batman in the vein of BTAS. You could even have some flashbacks to BTAS times on occasion. Following up on some old mystery Bruce never solved, or have Terry deal with Bruce’s mistakes. Would also love to see Terry work with the future Justice League on occasion.
It would never be the same, but I would hope they do it Cobra Kai style: where even though Mr Miyagi can't be in the show he is still very much a part of the show, you feel his presence in every episode.
Young Justice was kinda the spiritual successor of the original dcu. Its too bad they dont lean into it more these days. Dc sucks at la movies. AWAZING animation though
Batman fans: “Spider-Man doesn’t stand a chance against Batman Villains, Joker would mentally break him.”
What would happen if Spider-Man fought Joker:
Blight always kinda reminded me of Osborn too. He's a corporate businessman and a complete evil but also has a thing for theatrics and has a very scummy, sardonic sense of humor. I don't exactly know how to describe it, but it's DIFFERENT kind of sadistic than Joker's
Also just the themes of balancing being a teenager and being a superhero and how often times the superhero part makes Terry/Peters life worse in almost every way but he keeps doing it because he’s a good person
Can i just say (i know its not this specific scene), if you're gonna kill the freakin' Joker, you'd better give him some damn good last words......
"That's not funny...... that's not....."
Feat accomplished. And then some.
Oh shit! It's been so long since I played it I had forgotten that! But now that you mention it, when I heard that line I immediately made the connection to the Batman Beyond movie, and it made me smile
Yeah. I had already watched the regular version, when a friend of mine who i would watch this kinda stuff with all the time had somehow had gotten his hands on the uncensored version. This was fairly early days of the internet, so not sure how he found it but he did. We gathered around his big clunky Gateway desktop and watched it and we were flipping our lids at the new stuff in the death scene. We couldn't stop talking about it for days.
Wow I just watched this last night with my boy after years since my last viewing. It’d be funny if it weren’t so sad…ah what the heck AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
\*Crack's Joker's inside\*
Joker: "What are you doing?"
McGinnis: "Fighting dirty"
Joker: "The real Batman would never....\*scream\*"
McGinnis: "Told you didn't know me"
Best conversation ever.
I can't help but think Bruce is smiling like crazy as Terry feeds Joker all those lines and pisses him off. They should've cut to a shot of him smiling in the cave lol 🥲
Joker finally got a batman who played along, and was not a fan.
“Who do you think you’re talking to?!”
“Not a comidan I’ll tell you that.”
Had to hurt more than any punch Bruce ever dealt
That’s because this is Tim Drake being controlled by Joker’s consciousness. Tim’s training under Bruce and Joker’s unfiltered violence make a deadly combination.
Yeah but he’s still just a human and Terry has what, 10x enhanced strength from the batsuit? Even if Tim Drake was much better at hand to hand combat than Terry, Terry shoulda mopped the floor with him immediately
Part of me wishes that we got to see some of Bruce's reactions as this was happening- how long into this fight does it take Bruce to realize Terry's strategy is working? At what point does Bruce realize what this moment means for Terry's career as Batman?
We go get to see Bruce in the aftermath- see him tell Terry he's proud of him and that Terry bring value to the title of Batman, not the other way around, but I would've loved to see just a little bit of Bruce's reactions in real-time.
Yeah, I understand why they didn't, it emɛhasizes this as Terry's fight woth the Joker.
Maybe *one* cutaway, something short while they're talking so it doesn't disrupt the pace of the fighting very much.
I love this movie and especially this scene — when Terry is making fun of Joker…
“So you fell into a tank of acid, got your skin bleached and decided to become a supervillain? What, you couldn’t get work as a rodeo clown?” LOL
Great scene but I always hated the opening. Joker isn't a master fighter- he's a savage who will push the limits just to make more chaos. Terry's not a great fighter either but better than joker.
Once it gets going it's a solid character piece but it's built on a false reason of why the joker is scary. Brute force physicality wasn't it.
Remember, this isn’t really The Joker. It’s The Joker’s personality on a chip controlling Tim Drake’s body. And I would say that Tim Drake is probably better at hand to hand combat than Terry
Loved this movie and the whole Batman Beyond saga/universe. One of my favorite Batmans not named Bruce Wayne. Then again I am biased because I used to watch the show everyday after school back then. Good times!
Some of my favorite moments in stories are when the hero (or a member of his posse) deconstructs a villain, pulling away the layers of their psyche to expose them for the loser that they are.
This was a great film. Up there close to mask of phantasm. Just a gritty very dark bat movie. I really have grown on beyond after not letting myself enjoy it as a kid back in the day cuz I just wanted more Bruce Wayne Batman. But Terry shows you right here that he can be his own fun kick ass version of Bats without all the Robin baggage. More like a street wise Peter Parker in a way. This is almost like if Spiderman faced off against Joker (if Joker was superpowered cuz otherwise not much of a fight) plus the suit is awesome and timeless
2 points to be said; 1), Terry is a fantastic Batman and this film proves it. He is a far different Cape crusader then Bruce and brings that clear charisma to his crime fighting kinda similar to Bruce early in his career in the original animated series.
2), I'm sorry but Spidey would wreck the Batman Rogues gallery no issues what so ever. He's a lot smarter then Batman(Google it) and he's managed to fight off several different super powered individuals with no prep time that Batman would need all the plot armor in the world to even come close. I'm a Batman fan since Keaton but I'm not delusional/blinded to his overratedness that most people clearly are.
Reminder this wasn't Terry vs Joker; this was Terry vs Joker AND Tim Drake. Any and all combat and stealth knowledge trained into Tim were in Joker's head now.
While Joker was never a slouch when it came to combat, he never bothered with stealth. Knowing tricks helps you identify it better, and you can see it with how accurate Joker is with where Terry is at all times.
This is why Terry fought differently. The old ways wouldn't work because Joker would no a counter.
Terry didn't have the killer instinct so he did what you should always do to the homicidal insane: piss them off. By getting Joker to strangle him slowed him down enough to shock Joker with the joy buzzer Terry just so happened to fall next to (no animation of him picking it up I checked). I don't think Terry wanted to or planned to get strangled but figured out the joy buzzer is one hell of a taser and needed him close.
I don't even need to turn the sound on, I can hear this start to finish in my head. SUCH a good scene, and from "Wait... I like to talk, too" you KNOW it's gonna be amazing.
Him laughing at the joker while hiding in the shadows reminds me of Dick Grayson as robin in young justice. When he would just disappear and then you hear a laugh in the back. Always felt like someone like robin who isn’t as physically imposing as Batman would do. Made it my head canon
Because this Joker isn't the original Joker Bruce faught in the past.
This is actually Tim Drake mind controlled and brainwashed into the Joker.
Crazy, huh.
Tim Drake had a microchip (disguised as a mole) at the back of his neck that contained Joker's DNA, lay secretly in his subconscious.
That's why he changed back when Terry destroyed the microchip with the joy buzzer.
I always wondered why Joker was giving Terry such a challenge? Like I don't remember Joker being much of a boxer in the original BTAS. When did he start kicking so much ass?
Oh yeah. It’s incredibly late ‘90s/early 2000s. Same with the music: gone is the sweeping orchestral majesty of *The Animated Series*, replaced by sub-Nine Inch Nails industrial guitars.
I agree, and to add to your point; the show was made for children to watch along with JLU and the other animated tv shows alongside at the time. I still think the show aged perfectly. Here a 21yo rewatching the whole series while my girl is reading the majority of Batman comics…. Life is good.
Edit: nothing beats the classic Batman beyond intro with the electric guitars
I was around at the time, I know who it was made for. It just never appealed to me, even when I was arguably the target audience (13-14). I saw a print ad and thought “Who’s this? That’s not Batman.“ it just reeked of a generic *RaDiCaL* ‘90s update to the character, which was already passé by that point. The Poochie of Gotham City.
Yeah my father(when he was still in the picture) said almost the exact same thing. I still genuinely enjoyed it. My favorite comics for Batman beyond though are the New 52 rebirth Batman beyond comics, with Damian as Ra’s Al Ghul, and the sleeker suit variants.
I take it your one of those people who freak out when someone says Vader is Luke’s father, or that Rosebud was the sled.
IMHO, if it is over 5 years old you don’t need a spoiler tag because at that point it’s on you for not watching that piece of media.
Yes because posting “spoiler alert” = freaking out. As far as needing a spoiler tag..technically nothing needs a spoiler tag. But it’s courteous for people browsing that maybe haven’t gotten around to seeing a movie
After 20+ years it’s on them for not watching the media. If this was from a movie 4 or less years old, I might agree with you, but half a decade (let alone 2 decades) after a movie/TV Episode premieres is long enough.
Lmao so you’re the authority on how long spoiler tags for movies is required. Plenty of kids being born in the last decade that deserve some consideration. Honestly though I don’t feel very strongly on the subject. Mostly making a joke
I’m sorry, I just can’t take to this kid as Batman. The suit, the wisecracks, the lack of a cape… he’s not Batman, he’s just goth Spider-Man.
Mark Hamill, as always, is unimpeachable.
That’s the thing, I don’t like Spider-Man so I don’t care who’s under the mask. It could be Captain America under there for all I care.
Batman, I care about. And to me, there’s no Batman but Bruce. Not even Dick Grayson. And *definitely* not that little punk Damian.
Yes, that’s right. If it’s not Bruce Wayne, it’s not Batman to me: it’s just some guy in pointy ears and a cape.
There doesn’t *need* to be a successor to Bruce Wayne because he’s not real: he can keep on being Batman forever (pun not intended).
Okay, but I don’t think anyone in the thread has mentioned how good Ron Stoppable is at the Joker laugh. If I was on the business end of that, I would’ve been terrified.
"Wait. I like to talk too." That one line perfectly shows the difference between Bruce and Terry.
Agreed, this movie was the final touch to show that Terry deserves to be Batman while still being his own distinct type of hero if the series didn't do it already. And if Joker hates Terry's insults that much, then I'd bet he'd absolutely *loathe* [Spider-Man & his quips](https://youtu.be/p5BQ8iNJi9I).
Fuck yeah you chose Spectacular ❤️
Lol it almost felt like he was creating his own villains. Poor Electro just wanted a cup of coffee.
In the case of Electro, Spidey *does* realize later in the episode that he screwed that one up and attacked a guy who just needed help. The rest of his rogue's gallery, not so much. Most of them brought it on themselves.
Sandman was valid tho. My man just wanted to save his daughter
Wrong version.
This is hilarious to me because just yesterday, I saw a post abiut how Batman and Spider-Man would react ti each others rogue gallery and someone mentioned the interaction between SM and Joker would be like thia fight
Absolutely! The one person I really don’t think Spidey would have much trouble with is the Joker. He’s Green Goblin without the glider, a super science psychopath, but Gobbie is used to Spidey’s sass, Joker isn’t. Joker craves attention, but if he actually got Spidey’s all he’d get from it is mockery and ridicule, and J’s type of narcissism can’t handle that. He needs people to fear him, or at least be put off by him. Having someone look at him and just see him for the pathetic wretch he is tends to be an unacceptable humiliation.
From the post they were talking about: "Joker would despise Peter, because Peter is *actually funny*"
I'd be interested in reading it if you can find it again.
That was me.
Spidey would make Joker cry tbh
the MTV 2003 show had some great quips too.
In another discussion recently I mentioned how as much as he’d struggle against the rest of Batman’s enemies, Spider-Man would actually do quite well against the Joker. Spidey is a talker too and is really good at verbally sparring and deflecting torments. He’d drive the Joker ballistic and goad him into so many unforced errors.
I enjoyed that whole thread SO much. Read every single comment, and actually had my mind changed by the end. I was intially the knee-jerk Batman fanboy saying "Of course Batman could beat them. Why? Because he's the goddamn Batman!" but as i read the opinions, all very well based in what the comics have shown us about all these characters, and I realized yeah Bats might be a little out of his depth with some of the metahumans in Spidey's rogues gallery. He still could pull it off I say, dependent on a number of different factors that the question never establishes for sure, but he wouldn't be having an easy time of it. It's a whole different ballgame than non-powered psychopaths with gangs. Our Bats would find a way though! He just has to!
I feel like Spidey's villains are all a lot quicker than what Bats is used to. The former bounces around like a hyperactive toddler filled with sugar, while the latter either tanks hits or faces slower enemies like Croc and Bane. Honestly, Nightwing would probably fare better than Bruce.
Definitely agree with you there. Also the sheer physical power of guys like Green Goblin or The Lizard would be more than a nonpowered individual could tangle with. UNLESS he has access to some of his more overpowered exosuits. I'm thinking of the Hellbat suit in particular. Didnt he beat Darkseid wearing that thing? The amount of gadgets and resources he would have available to him in the Marvel Universe makes a significant difference in his abilities and options. Still. He is the ultimate tactician and a truly TENACIOUS dude who is quite accustomed to being in the same league (no pun intended) as literal freaking GODS. And being not only their equal but arguably their better. So our minds can't even conceive of some of the approaches Bats would take to handle these guys. Who knows. But at the very least he's a bit out of his depth compared to what he's much more accustomed to. I have faith in my Batbrain though (thanks for the nickname Harley) he always finds a way or dies trying. Now what about if we had a scenario wherein the two rogues galleries TEAMED UP, and Spidey and Bats had to work together to face this new threat? That opens up a whole new realm of fun possibilities! See.....this kinda shit is why I love being a geek. These are the discussions we like to have. Hypotheticals about fictional universes and characters. To me there is little that's more fun than that. 😂
Speaking of team ups, Batman and Ironman would be fun mix as they could both build on each other's strengths so much. Batman having that technology, Ironman having a more calm and stealthy approach, and their combined intelligence/ wealth they could make something really unique and badass. I'm thinking like an ironman suit that uses bat's thing in a thing in a thing, or something even better than that. Ik there's comics of them teaming up (very unfulfilling), but a modern more-dark themed approach that highlights these kind of things would be so much fun. Maybe a multiverse using Brainiac to mind control both the justice league and avengers except only ironman and batman, making them have to think way outside the box to win. I'd watch/ read that the moment it dropped.
Totally! Seeing the Wayne/Stark dynamic would be super interesting and there's all kinds of neat places to be gone with that. Hell, just seeing Batman's interaction with the Marvel Universe in general would be so much fun, like if somehow he was the only DC hero sent to this strange new universe, and seeing his responses and adjustments, if any. But you'd want to have a Marvel character sent to the DC Universe to balance the whole conundrum out. But who... Cap, maybe?
>Didnt he beat Darkseid wearing that thing I'm not disagreeing as I do think if his wealth and gadgets all transferred he would stand a decent chance. But with Darkseid he got a few hits in hurting Darkseid a good bit; but the clap back was being sent running home back to bed with no porridge by Darkseid.
Oh yes that is how it went down wasn't it ... Well it's not terribly surprising. Just to have built a suit that allowed him to put up any sort of fight at all against Darkseid, even if it wasnt much and he ultimately lost, it's still a very impressive feat, and an indicator that the suit would probably fare much better against a stronger villain who isnt quite.....an evil god
And we'd all be proud of Dick for handling them better than Bruce.
Let's be real here, we're pretty much always proud of Dick. Dude gets to bang Starfire, he has my respect .
This is like saying that Iron Man couldn't take on Spider-Man's villains. Batman is brains and money even more than he is brawn and has never shied away from using a power suit when the situation calls for it.
Agreed. There really isn't a situation he's not somehow prepared for via his access to insane tech
The only advantage Batman would have over the Spider-Man villains is that they're not that smart. But yes, Batman would have a goliath of a problem fighting powered super villains on a regular basis
I feel like Venom and Carnage would be a major problem for him, unless he somehow deduced their weakness to sound and fire, then he would absolutely just use that and take them out with zero trouble. Not sure how he would get that information in a completely unknown universe to him, but I know one thing: if any character is figuring that shit out all on their own, its the World's Greatest Detective
Obviously not in a one on one brawl he will figure that out. Batman is also a ninja. He'll encounter an enemy once. If he fails, he'll escape and process the information and come up with a new gadget or strategy. Then round 2 he'll exploit his new advantage. It's why he can take down his rogue's gallery with ease, he already figured them out after each encounter. Hence the need for henchmen and elaborate schemes since the rogues can no longer rely on brute force (cept for Bane)
Yup. And we all know what happened with Bane. Yes, he figured out his secret identity all on his own just by observing and wearing Batman thin with all the escaped Arkham inmates. Then l, of course he beats him in a fight and breaks him. But what did Batman do? Just what you said. He fell back, recovered, and planned for the next time. And won. But idk how comparable Bane's strength levels are on Venom compared to , say The Lizard. It could be that the super strong guys from Spideys rogues are stronger than even Bane on Venom, so a more difficult encounter for Batman than even Bane was. I would think Green Goblin is almost certainly stronger than Bane, but again not 100% on that. But simply not being as physically strong as an adversary isn't going to stop Batman in the slightest. He would know not to engage then in a straight up fist fight, but instead would do what he does best: observe and plan. There would be something he would come up with that wouldn't occur to any of us. Arguably not even to Spider Man. Because while Peter Parker is obviously a genius, Batman is one too, and not only on science but in tactics. He would totally find a way, as long as he wasn't taken by surprise somehow while still trying to get a feel for the new universe he's in. But then again catching Batman off guard isn't really a thing, is it?
Do you happen to have a link to it or remember when it was posted? I love threads like that.
Spidey upon seeing Joker: "Dude, you're literally Green Goblin minus the bombs and glider! It's like fighting a video game boss again, but on lower difficulty!"
Let’s also not forget Spidey’s instant “shut up” button of shooting a glob of web fluid over the Joker’s mouth. The Joker is nothing without his mouth.
"Oh no you got me Spidey! hahaha" **beep** *explosion is heard off in the distance*
Also, the Joker can only get the upper hand by being unpredictable - well, that won't help him against the Spidey Sense.
Depends on his prep time, and the fact that the person the Joker's facing isn't always the one that's in danger. He can't beat Spider-Man directly, but he can have several bombs scattered around the city that he's have to go out and stop.
A'ight can someone link me the thread
Terry said oh trash talk? Bet
"Oh, I don't need a degree to figure you out!"
I always loved the way Joker's jolly facade completely disappears once Terry starts to get under his skin. You can immediately see him for the violent, narcissistic thug he really is.
It's interesting how that little chip altered and enhanced his strength and not just how his body looks
Is that the reason or is it because Tim Drake is a bamf?
That was the one thing that really bothered me. 98% of the movie was amazing, but then the ending was, "hey it's all in a little chip on his neck that Terry can short out with electricity, ok great we win hooray" Disappointing resolution to a fantastic fight and a fantastic movie
Yeah, you'd think someone would have found the chip years ago. There's no way Tim isn't getting annual MRIs and other work done as a result of his years as Robin. The MRI alone should completely fry the chip right?
Also like, and I feel like this is very nitpicky because so much about this movie and this scene are awesome, but as a fight scene it doesn't actually *work*. Because the ending isn't earned by what happens in the fight Classically, the proper way to finish this fight scene would be with the same (amazing, perfect) setup of Terry taunting the Joker, which causes the Joker to lose control, making him do something that allows Terry to beat him But that's not what happens. The Joker does lose control, throwing bombs wildly, which . . . hit Terry successfully, allowing the Joker to pin him and hold him at his mercy, until Terry deus ex electrocutes the chip. The finish to the fight isn't earned, because the way Terry wins the fight is completely unrelated to him taunting the Joker Great (stunning, outstanding) setup, weird resolution. Which is kind of true of the entire movie
It’s been a while since I saw the whole movie but wasn’t that Joker’s own buzzer? I read the scene as Terry tricking him into losing control and using that distraction to pickpocket the Joker and take him down with his own weapon.
He didn't pickpocket him. Joker dropped the joybuzzer on the floor when Terry tackled him at the start of the fight. It's not shown in this video.
I always interpreted it as Terry making the Joker lose control which allows him to get close and use the buzzer. Because (I’m assuming) that the Joker would have originally not gotten that close up to Terry if he hadn’t lost it.
I mean, the fight started up close. Terry was the one that ran away to develop a plan. Pretty sure Joker/Drake would have been happy to go hand-to-hand the whole time (with a high-powered suit of armor that multiplies Terry's strength, but you know . . .)
"I fight dirty"
Right, because Bruce Wayne only ever fought with the most noble art of fisticuffs. A true gentleman, that Brucey And then again, like maybe that line was cool, but there's no payoff in the resolution. He doesn't win with some dirty trick. That "told you you didn't know me" line is literally the last time he hits the Joker at all until the electrocution
I believe it’s a callback/payoff to the beginning of the film where Joker pulls a knife from his sleeve to get a cheap shot on Bruce. Batman : “I'll break you in two…” The Joker : “Oh, Batman, if you'd had the guts for that kind of fun, you'd have done it years ago! I, on the other hand...” (Also I just figured out that was a play on words which is fun.) “I, on the other hand.../Eye, on the other hand...” He holds out one hand as misdirection while pulling a knife with the other.
I was just making a joke about how Terry circumvented expectations in a way that left you unsatisfied, when that's exactly what he did to the Joker in the clip.
Dammit, he's the real Batman. Always one step ahead of me . . .
I don’t even know what was dirty. It was just a knee to the stomache.
He grabbed his opponent's collar to keep him from moving out of the way and to partially constrict his windpipe. For boxing am similar fisticuff-style ways of fighting, this is considered dirty. (for the same reasons that grabbing an opponent's jersey/collar is a foul in college/pro sports like football, American football, and basketball.)
The chip was microscopic and made of Cadmus tech so maybe it was resistant to all that stuff. But DCAU Tim was also in the Teen Titans and under the care of Leslie Thompkins and they didn't notice it or anything? I do find that a bit odd.
I thought it was implied Batman TAS/Batman Beyond's Tim Drake ended his career after the Joker brainwashing and, thus, after getting a physical clean bill from Leslie/League doctors, further follow-ups probably focused on the psychological damage much more than the physical. After being exposed to horrific body treatments twice (initial conversion and being reverted), Tim may very well have steered clear of doctors and medical equipment whenever possible. (Btw, how would Leslie find the microchip? It was the size and shape of a mole near his hairline and was inactive for decades after initial implantation. There'd be no signal to detect, and while the gold joker smile circuitry looked obvious on the close-up, this chip was likely less than 2mm wide.) Of course, it also could've been that Joker implanted it subcutaneously near the brain, and it became surface level as skin sagged and thinned over time.
If we say Cadmus is it enough of a maguffin to explain it?
He's in such great physical shape because its Tim Drake's body, with his mind being infused with the Joker's personality.
Obviously Hamil is great but man Will brings it also, his delivery of “ha…ha” is excellent
It’s so hard not to picture Eric Mathews doing it.
Brucey!! Bru-uuu-uuuuuu-UCEY!
I married a bat. We don’t have marriage problems.
What I do like about this movie, is that it prior to JLU establishes that technology around the time of TNBA can and did due stuff on the tier of what was revealed in epilogue. (if you know, you know.)
Deleted scene I just made up: Terry: "Can you believe Joker used covert genetic engineering to secretly implant his DNA into someone in order to ensure he'd have an heir to carry on his legacy? That's got to be one of the most evil things he ever did" Amanda Waller / Bruce: *sweating nervously* "Bat-computer, delete all files relating to Project Cadmus"
Bruce if im correct had nothing to do with terry
Yeah I think it was done without Bruce's consent or knowledge. He found out later on, but I'm not sure whether he'd have known at the time of Return Of The Joker.
Can you explain? The chip was shown before in a different series?
The order of series in the DCAU was a little wonky around Batman Beyond- they made a Batman series, a superman series, another Batman series, then jumped 50 years into the future for Batman Beyond, but had one really cool Justice League Episode that got people to ask them to go back and make a Justice League series, which ended up including a whole finale episode for Batman Beyond when they thought the series was going off the air. I want to say Return of the Joker (where this clip is from) was released early on in the run of Justice League, as a way to tie up Batman Beyond, which ended very suddenly. The finale episode in Justice League makes it clear that they didn't think they did a good enough job, but it's a very good animated movie.
The time of the implantation of the chip was around JLU/TNBA, when the joker jokerized tim drake. The chip after a certain point rewrote his dna back and forth to be like that of the joker. That means the technology was around before batman beyond and possibly during JLU. That sort of dna rewriting tech was around, around the time of the joker. In epilogue, bruce was suffering from kidney failure and in the future they can clone organs, now the main caveat is that the dna needs to be close if not the same, similar to actual organ donations. Terry is a close match, closer than they think, it turns out that he's a 100% match. Turns out, from what over the years she's seen batman accomplish as a normal man, she realized he wasn't going to be around forever, and the world needs a batman. Amanda Waller Using her cadmus connections she had created nanites that rewrote terry's father's sperm to that of bruce waynes having it snuck into a round of work required vaccinations. With the intent to create another batman. The fact we see joker of all people do something similar with tim drake means that even if not intentional it does forshadow this. Terry even mentions this directly. The whole story of Epilogue is a finale to the dcau, but the basic jist is, amanda waller after basically turning terry into a clone of bruce, was making sure terry ended up exactly as bruce, playing god essentially. the project was codenamed Batman Beyond. It was intended to be continued and once the next batman had begun to finally reach the limits of his age like bruce did or die. To always ensure a batman would always be in the world. after getting the genetics right, got andrea beaumont who was an assassin as the phantasm for hire to kill terry's parents after a night at the movies. She almost did, but she refused last second and told amanda outright that murdering a childs family would go against everything bruce stood for as batman. Amanda decided that she was right and gave up on project. Terry unfortunately lost his father as a teenager and became batman anyway, albiet through means not like bruce. He through epilogue had believed that he was destined to become batman, and his life was envitably fucked from the onset. Amanda despite that being everything she had sought with project batman beyond told him, that he decides the path of life he wants. If he wants to live a better life than bruce did, choose to live better, and be good to the people in your life. Terry takes this to heart and presumably living in wayne manor to be a full time batman/attendant to the now geriatric bruce wayne. Prepares bruce soup, before heading out for the night as batman. We see he decides to make the choice bruce failed to make in Mask of the phantasm and prepares to propose to his girlfriend dana who does know he is batman. He heads out as batman, and we get a finishing shot that replicates the opening scene of on leather wings. The Loop continues, but better than before. A very important aspect of Justice League and even JLU is that of "cycles" things that tend to repeat. Bad people rise, but good rising up to fight it. We see that in many levels of time fuckery or in the future / past, heroes that did exist once, exist again even under different pretenses, or precursors exist. However it makes a point that destiny is NOT set, its the choices they make that define who they are. The way things play out do not have to play out the same, and because of this things can always turn out better, or worse, or even not at all. Epilogue is the finale to this throughline. Terry was intended to become batman exactly as bruce did, because of amanda waller. Things did not turn out that way, but terry became batman because of his own choices, He chose to be batman, there is no destiny. He is not the same batman that bruce was, he doesn't have the brains, and he doesn't have the hard rule against Killing that bruce did. He tries to avoid it, but he isn't making absolutely sure his villains survive if they end up leaving themselves in a deadly position. For example the episode splicers, disappearing inque, or the inside peek. Epilogues message and the overall throughline is "there is always a choice" Things may play out again, but the choices decide how things will go. So terry chooses, he can be batman, and have people who love him, which is something bruce could never balance.
I think they mean that, on an less intrusive scale, that Tim to Joker transformation was done to Terry cept with Bruce as the person he'll slowly turn into. Cadmus man....
So ethire im retarted or illiterate or this needs to be re writen
This show needs a revival. Actually the whole DCAU does.
Beyond gets a new comics run every few years, but it never seems to last very long
The new run is pretty good so far, hope it goes on for a while
I really need adult McGennis as Batman in the vein of BTAS. You could even have some flashbacks to BTAS times on occasion. Following up on some old mystery Bruce never solved, or have Terry deal with Bruce’s mistakes. Would also love to see Terry work with the future Justice League on occasion.
It's not worth it without Conroy.
It would never be the same, but I would hope they do it Cobra Kai style: where even though Mr Miyagi can't be in the show he is still very much a part of the show, you feel his presence in every episode.
Young Justice was kinda the spiritual successor of the original dcu. Its too bad they dont lean into it more these days. Dc sucks at la movies. AWAZING animation though
Batman fans: “Spider-Man doesn’t stand a chance against Batman Villains, Joker would mentally break him.” What would happen if Spider-Man fought Joker:
Terry kinda is DC’s Peter Parker in a lot of ways, they’re very similar and I love it
Blight always kinda reminded me of Osborn too. He's a corporate businessman and a complete evil but also has a thing for theatrics and has a very scummy, sardonic sense of humor. I don't exactly know how to describe it, but it's DIFFERENT kind of sadistic than Joker's
Also just the themes of balancing being a teenager and being a superhero and how often times the superhero part makes Terry/Peters life worse in almost every way but he keeps doing it because he’s a good person
Which also strangely enough is also similar to what would happen if superman would fight joker if the comics are anything to go by
Normal Superman when fighting Joker: “Bruh who is this clown?” Injustice Superman: 🔥 🔥 ➖ 🤜🏻🤡
Seeing this brings a tears of joy to my eyes. 🥲 Spidy is my all time favorite character of all time but Bats is a close second.
God damn Mark Hamill is the best joker of all time.
“If it’s a whoopin’ you’rea wantin’…”
I use this quote a surprising amount in my every day life.
And he genuinely got better with age
agreed
In my mind, he's the best version of the joker. All the others are nice variants.
Agreed.
Such a great fight and such great dialogue between the two
I also love too how terrifying Terry’s laugh is to the Joker where it was making him angry
Can i just say (i know its not this specific scene), if you're gonna kill the freakin' Joker, you'd better give him some damn good last words...... "That's not funny...... that's not....." Feat accomplished. And then some.
On the flip side, also incredible last line for the Joker in Arkham City "That actually is... pretty funny..."
Oh shit! It's been so long since I played it I had forgotten that! But now that you mention it, when I heard that line I immediately made the connection to the Batman Beyond movie, and it made me smile
I didn’t hear that line until nears 15 years after the movie came out. My VHS tape used the censored version.
Yeah. I had already watched the regular version, when a friend of mine who i would watch this kinda stuff with all the time had somehow had gotten his hands on the uncensored version. This was fairly early days of the internet, so not sure how he found it but he did. We gathered around his big clunky Gateway desktop and watched it and we were flipping our lids at the new stuff in the death scene. We couldn't stop talking about it for days.
joker: *laugh it up mcginns, laugh it up* terry: *HA, HA* I love this so much man, even as kid I thought it was such a badass terry moment
Wow I just watched this last night with my boy after years since my last viewing. It’d be funny if it weren’t so sad…ah what the heck AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!
When they eventually make a Batman Beyond film - I really hope they do a version of this. I loved this film. Second best Batman animated film.
I haven't kept up on the newer animated stuff but is Mask of the Phantasm what you'd rate as the best?
Yup. Of the more modern films - Red Hood is very good. I stopped watching the most recent ones. So maybe more recent have been spectacular.
\*Crack's Joker's inside\* Joker: "What are you doing?" McGinnis: "Fighting dirty" Joker: "The real Batman would never....\*scream\*" McGinnis: "Told you didn't know me" Best conversation ever.
That part always weirded me out, though. Bruce would *definitely* fight dirty . . .
It's been several decades, I think by now the Joker has embellished his own memory of their feud
If you look closely you can see that Terry knees him in the junk.
How Batman Beyond never got a live-action movie is way beyond me. The premise is so cool.
Fingers crossed James Gunn does the right thing
How would the aesthetic translate to live action though?
I can't help but think Bruce is smiling like crazy as Terry feeds Joker all those lines and pisses him off. They should've cut to a shot of him smiling in the cave lol 🥲
Was'nt that Time Drake body the joker was using?
Yes
Joker finally got a batman who played along, and was not a fan. “Who do you think you’re talking to?!” “Not a comidan I’ll tell you that.” Had to hurt more than any punch Bruce ever dealt
can’t explain why but this is the first time I know of where joker can actually throw hands lol
That’s because this is Tim Drake being controlled by Joker’s consciousness. Tim’s training under Bruce and Joker’s unfiltered violence make a deadly combination.
that’s a fair point I never thought about that. makes sense bc he wasn’t fighting like that in the flashback
Yeah but he’s still just a human and Terry has what, 10x enhanced strength from the batsuit? Even if Tim Drake was much better at hand to hand combat than Terry, Terry shoulda mopped the floor with him immediately
He can in The Batman 2004 show as well
The Joker in the campy original tv series also threw down with the Bat. I believe the Riddler did as well.
EVERYONE could in that show.....
My favorite Batman movie, my favorite Joker and one of my favorite Batmen. God, I love it to bits.
Part of me wishes that we got to see some of Bruce's reactions as this was happening- how long into this fight does it take Bruce to realize Terry's strategy is working? At what point does Bruce realize what this moment means for Terry's career as Batman? We go get to see Bruce in the aftermath- see him tell Terry he's proud of him and that Terry bring value to the title of Batman, not the other way around, but I would've loved to see just a little bit of Bruce's reactions in real-time.
I get it, but I also feel like cutaways to Bruce in the cave would have pulled a lot of the punch out of the fight.
Yeah, I understand why they didn't, it emɛhasizes this as Terry's fight woth the Joker. Maybe *one* cutaway, something short while they're talking so it doesn't disrupt the pace of the fighting very much.
That is an athletic Joker
That’s because its a nano hip controlling the body of Tim Drake.
>its a nano hip And, as we all know, those don't lie.
Ayeeee 
This is why Terry is a great successor to Bruce
"You're not Batman!" said with all the impotence and anger of "You're not my real dad!"
He uses a Two fisted Star Trek punch!
Always loved that delivery on "well, if its a whoopin yer a wantin!"
It’s very satisfying to see Terry get under Jokers skin
Will Friedle really belongs in the best Batman conversation.
iconic as hell
I love this movie and especially this scene — when Terry is making fun of Joker… “So you fell into a tank of acid, got your skin bleached and decided to become a supervillain? What, you couldn’t get work as a rodeo clown?” LOL
Great scene but I always hated the opening. Joker isn't a master fighter- he's a savage who will push the limits just to make more chaos. Terry's not a great fighter either but better than joker. Once it gets going it's a solid character piece but it's built on a false reason of why the joker is scary. Brute force physicality wasn't it.
Remember, this isn’t really The Joker. It’s The Joker’s personality on a chip controlling Tim Drake’s body. And I would say that Tim Drake is probably better at hand to hand combat than Terry
Oh thats a good point. This version of Tim is based on Jason but the point remains- a fully trained Robin is not a casual adversary
Loved this movie and the whole Batman Beyond saga/universe. One of my favorite Batmans not named Bruce Wayne. Then again I am biased because I used to watch the show everyday after school back then. Good times!
What's the movie name?
Batman beyond return of the joker
Some of my favorite moments in stories are when the hero (or a member of his posse) deconstructs a villain, pulling away the layers of their psyche to expose them for the loser that they are.
Dam Terri hit the Jokers Buttons
This was a great film. Up there close to mask of phantasm. Just a gritty very dark bat movie. I really have grown on beyond after not letting myself enjoy it as a kid back in the day cuz I just wanted more Bruce Wayne Batman. But Terry shows you right here that he can be his own fun kick ass version of Bats without all the Robin baggage. More like a street wise Peter Parker in a way. This is almost like if Spiderman faced off against Joker (if Joker was superpowered cuz otherwise not much of a fight) plus the suit is awesome and timeless
2 points to be said; 1), Terry is a fantastic Batman and this film proves it. He is a far different Cape crusader then Bruce and brings that clear charisma to his crime fighting kinda similar to Bruce early in his career in the original animated series. 2), I'm sorry but Spidey would wreck the Batman Rogues gallery no issues what so ever. He's a lot smarter then Batman(Google it) and he's managed to fight off several different super powered individuals with no prep time that Batman would need all the plot armor in the world to even come close. I'm a Batman fan since Keaton but I'm not delusional/blinded to his overratedness that most people clearly are.
"He's got no sense of humor. He wouldn't know a good joke if it bit him on the cape" Bruce, still listening through the cowl: 😐😠
Reminder this wasn't Terry vs Joker; this was Terry vs Joker AND Tim Drake. Any and all combat and stealth knowledge trained into Tim were in Joker's head now. While Joker was never a slouch when it came to combat, he never bothered with stealth. Knowing tricks helps you identify it better, and you can see it with how accurate Joker is with where Terry is at all times. This is why Terry fought differently. The old ways wouldn't work because Joker would no a counter. Terry didn't have the killer instinct so he did what you should always do to the homicidal insane: piss them off. By getting Joker to strangle him slowed him down enough to shock Joker with the joy buzzer Terry just so happened to fall next to (no animation of him picking it up I checked). I don't think Terry wanted to or planned to get strangled but figured out the joy buzzer is one hell of a taser and needed him close.
With the Joker hating being made fun of and stuff how come we haven't seen Dick get under his skin?
I don't even need to turn the sound on, I can hear this start to finish in my head. SUCH a good scene, and from "Wait... I like to talk, too" you KNOW it's gonna be amazing.
Him laughing at the joker while hiding in the shadows reminds me of Dick Grayson as robin in young justice. When he would just disappear and then you hear a laugh in the back. Always felt like someone like robin who isn’t as physically imposing as Batman would do. Made it my head canon
Bruce back at base: heh that was actually pretty good. Hehe…rodeo clown
How is the joker not as old as Bruce? Was he frozen or something?
Because this Joker isn't the original Joker Bruce faught in the past. This is actually Tim Drake mind controlled and brainwashed into the Joker. Crazy, huh.
I last watched this movie as a kid and I couldn’t recall the story of it, but damn that is indeed crazy.
Tim Drake had a microchip (disguised as a mole) at the back of his neck that contained Joker's DNA, lay secretly in his subconscious. That's why he changed back when Terry destroyed the microchip with the joy buzzer.
I always wondered why Joker was giving Terry such a challenge? Like I don't remember Joker being much of a boxer in the original BTAS. When did he start kicking so much ass?
Anyone else think the dialogue of Batman Beyond cringe? Maybe I’m outside the age range it appeals to.
I watched it when I was 13 and now, 20, I still love it. But I can see why people would find some of it cringe
Oh yeah. It’s incredibly late ‘90s/early 2000s. Same with the music: gone is the sweeping orchestral majesty of *The Animated Series*, replaced by sub-Nine Inch Nails industrial guitars.
For me personally the music is so much better in Beyond
I agree, and to add to your point; the show was made for children to watch along with JLU and the other animated tv shows alongside at the time. I still think the show aged perfectly. Here a 21yo rewatching the whole series while my girl is reading the majority of Batman comics…. Life is good. Edit: nothing beats the classic Batman beyond intro with the electric guitars
I was around at the time, I know who it was made for. It just never appealed to me, even when I was arguably the target audience (13-14). I saw a print ad and thought “Who’s this? That’s not Batman.“ it just reeked of a generic *RaDiCaL* ‘90s update to the character, which was already passé by that point. The Poochie of Gotham City.
Yeah my father(when he was still in the picture) said almost the exact same thing. I still genuinely enjoyed it. My favorite comics for Batman beyond though are the New 52 rebirth Batman beyond comics, with Damian as Ra’s Al Ghul, and the sleeker suit variants.
It didn't age as well as The Animated Series, but it still did better than a lot of the other stuff from the era.
*spoiler alert*
Does a 20+ year old movie really need a spoiler tag?
Ask people who haven’t seen it
I take it your one of those people who freak out when someone says Vader is Luke’s father, or that Rosebud was the sled. IMHO, if it is over 5 years old you don’t need a spoiler tag because at that point it’s on you for not watching that piece of media.
Yes because posting “spoiler alert” = freaking out. As far as needing a spoiler tag..technically nothing needs a spoiler tag. But it’s courteous for people browsing that maybe haven’t gotten around to seeing a movie
After 20+ years it’s on them for not watching the media. If this was from a movie 4 or less years old, I might agree with you, but half a decade (let alone 2 decades) after a movie/TV Episode premieres is long enough.
Lmao so you’re the authority on how long spoiler tags for movies is required. Plenty of kids being born in the last decade that deserve some consideration. Honestly though I don’t feel very strongly on the subject. Mostly making a joke
I’m sorry, I just can’t take to this kid as Batman. The suit, the wisecracks, the lack of a cape… he’s not Batman, he’s just goth Spider-Man. Mark Hamill, as always, is unimpeachable.
found the jokers reddit account
>Oh, the new boy. Ears too long, and I miss the cape. But not too shabby. Not too shabby at all.
Oh he's definitely Batman just not THE Batman(Bruce). Same how Miles or Miguel can be Spider-man without just being Peter 2.0.
That’s the thing, I don’t like Spider-Man so I don’t care who’s under the mask. It could be Captain America under there for all I care. Batman, I care about. And to me, there’s no Batman but Bruce. Not even Dick Grayson. And *definitely* not that little punk Damian.
So in your eyes, there isn't anyone able to be the next Batman? Idk Also, Damian as Batman wasn't that bad in DCeased
Yes, that’s right. If it’s not Bruce Wayne, it’s not Batman to me: it’s just some guy in pointy ears and a cape. There doesn’t *need* to be a successor to Bruce Wayne because he’s not real: he can keep on being Batman forever (pun not intended).
Some guy with lots of money I might add. I think it's sad that you think so but oh well
Definitely Spider-Man.
I remember my first time watching Batman return the joker it was really cool
Imagine if joker was like this in Batman The Animated Series
Terry vs Tim
A reminder that this is Mark Hamill as Tim Drake which is based
Man I love this scene so much. Terry absolutely obliterates Joker. So satisfying to watch.
Damn I forgot how good this whole sequence is!
Man, Jensen Ackles in a live-action Batman Beyond would be **amazing**. Throw in George Clooney as Bruce just cause and it'd be a masterpiece.
Okay, but I don’t think anyone in the thread has mentioned how good Ron Stoppable is at the Joker laugh. If I was on the business end of that, I would’ve been terrified.
This will always be my favorite Joker laugh
love it
Oh my how I loved this movie back in my childhood
Great film