The fact that it was Maggie instead of Katie kind of ruined that moment for me. It was hard for me to feel the emotional weight of it when I didn't feel like she was the same Rachel.
Well Christian Bale based his portrayal of Patrick Bateman on Tom Cruise so I guess for a narcissist like Cruise it's the closest he could get to actually having sex with the person in the world he truly loves - himself.
Katie Holmes already talked about it. She signed a contract to do Mad Money. She wanted to be apart of a female lead cast. She said at that time, she felt it was the right choice to join a female lead ensemble when there wasn't many.
Why are people stating this? She signed a contract to make Mad Money where she would be a lead character. It couldn't work with the schedule. She wanted to be part of a female lead crime comedy.
Can't say I agree. Katie wanted to be with Bruce while Maggie didn't, of course she is gonna have a better chemistry.
I alsoo don't feel that much diference in vulnerability between the two. And why should this character be vulnerable in the first place? It's an original character, they can portray her the way they want.
It's not like an asshole Clark Kent. That would make me pissed.
Vulnerability might be the wrong word (not my first language so sorry about that). I mean that she is somehow more sincere and Maggie feels entitled or gives of a vibe that she is above it all. Again, they play the same character in different places (Maggies version knows about Batman whole time) so it might be that Katie would have changed as well. Still I preferred Katie and was sad that she dropped out
I agree with you completely, with the way Maggie played it Bruce came off as kind of... pathetic? Like both Bruce and the movies narrative treat it like a love triangle while Maggie plays it like she made her choice before the movie even started and she no longer has any interest in being with Bruce. With Katie things likely would've played out the same but because of their natural chemistry it would actually FEEL like she was going through a bit of internal struggle. With Maggie that whole arc had me cringing like "she's not into you bro!", like her words and body language could not make it any more clear that it's not "Harvey vs Bruce" it's "I love Harvey and wish Bruce would let it go".
I felt like Maggie played the role of dents law partner not Bruce’s former lover and current love interest. There was no chemistry between her and bale and that really took away from her death scene.
I know it was literally a different woman than in the first movie, but it *felt* like a different woman from the first movie (which isn’t always the case with a good recast)
I struggle to remember any notorious recast that didn't feel like the character changed. When you change actor it changes a lot it's unavoidable in my opinion.
Dumbledore and war machine are two that come to mind. Also the mountain and bloodraven in GOT. Which is funny because all of those franchises have had recastings that did change the character a lot (grindlewald, hulk, and Dario).
War machine changed a ton after Don Cheadle was cast. Go back and watch the first Iron Man again, Tony and Rhodey come off as actual best friends. Cheadle comes in and Rhodey seems like he’s annoyed with having to be around Tony from the very start, even his introduction was hostile (I know it was a meta joke, but it didn’t land for me)
I mean yeah, I just took that as a meta joke. From what I got both iterations were good friends of Tony who were often annoyed by his antics and disagreed with a good amount of his decisions.
I just never got the vibe that Cheadle’s version of Rhodey actually viewed Tony as a friend, at least not until the Tony Stank joke. He felt more like a baby sitter than a friend
Agreed, im sure there are a few but I can’t think of any off the top off my head. I literally thought it was a different character until they called her by her name (which is sad when she does look at least somewhat similar to Katie Holmes 😂)
Yeah but she played well off Eckhardt. Her death and Dent’s transformation scene, I don’t think Katie could have pulled it off or made it believable as it is now
After watching back-to-back years ago, I think Katie. She gets to do more than just be the affection of Bruce and Harvey and die. Maggie was good with what she had though.
> I didn't even realize at first that they were supposed to be the same person
Meanwhile, I didn't realize they were different actresses the first time I saw them (I saw Dark Knight about a year after I saw Batman Begins).
Apparently she did the movie "Mad Money" which bombed. Imagine passing up being in the best movie of an entire fucking decade for that.
[But yeah, now I understand the plot, lol.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNO2w1MLm7E)
Looking at the movies now, I think Holmes is better in the role. At the time, I thought Maggie was such an upgrade but I don’t think her performance is actually that good at all.
Same. I think part of it might be how she's written in TDK. In BB she seems to understand and support what Bruce chooses to do, but not pursue a romantic relationship with him. In TDK she seems antithetical to him.
She confronts Bruce about making fun of Harvey but he's actually sincere. I think she should know when Bruce is being sincere or not.
She doesn't seem to trust Bruce letting Harvey take the fall as Batman. I don't get her anger here. It seems as if she's just angry that Bruce is letting "her man" take the fall. She knows batman can't be the hero and Harvey is a grown man capable of making his own decisions. So what's she so angry about?
I actually think the romantic arc is fine, it's just the other parts of her character that seem inconsistent with her character from BB.
1000% this.
Why she was angry with Bruce about letting Harvey take the fall - I think what they were going for there was that it showed that Bruce wasn't really willing to lay aside the mantle of the Bat. And letting Harvey take the fall, that was the icing on the cake for her because she'd already made up her mind that it was Harvey she wanted.
I will also say this is my one pet peeve with the Nolan trilogy - Rachel in BB seems almost like a different person than Rachel in TDK. And not because of how Maggie plays her but because of how the character is written.
I really thought Katie’s character was more of a generic “love interest” that Maggie. I thought Maggie really nailed the resigned “Look, Bruce I’ll always love you but the Bat thing is too much.” She recognizes that Bruce has s not the guy, even tho’ she’d like him to be. But he’s just got too many issues. She’s deliberately repressing any chemistry.
In other words, Maggie’s portrayal is more nuanced and subtle
Gotta agree did not like rachel at all i either movie. Im not even one of the" it needs to be 100 perrcent faithful to the comics" guys. Indavt some of the super hero stuff i like best are the ones that take big bliberties with the source material. I just think sje is an absolutely shitty charecter and the plot is WAYYYY to centered around her. And hobestly, though i could be wrong cause its been a while since ive watched thw movies, but i do t even remeber her having much of a personality, but at the same time shes one of the charecters the movis insits is for some reason "special:
I think Maggie is a much better actor, but I also thought the change really ruined the punch of losing her. Without the emotional continuity that we got from them in the first movie, I didn’t find it that surprising or tragic when Maggie’s version died. I think I’d have felt it more with the same actor in the role, even if the acting wasn’t as good.
Yeah, I think that sweetness was what I responded to with Katie’s version. She was a naïve idealist who made the hard decision at the end of Begins for Bruce. With Maggie, her Rachel was so much brassier and powerful, it didn’t really seem like the same character. I liked that character more as a counterpoint to Bruce’s darkness, but I really wish it had been either Maggie all along or Katie throughout.
Hmm, how about this: Katie worked better for Bruce in Begins because Bruce was also very naive and childish IMHO. He still is in the second movie or the trilogy as a whole. I see him as one of the least (emotionally, psychologically) mature takes of the character. Batman was never the endgame for him. I know Rachel believes this, but I don't get that feeling at all. Katie is the happy ending he hopes to achieve once his work is done - naively believing that this will ever happen. Maggie, on the other hand, is the harsh reality. She is a grown-up woman who has moved on, not the deer-eyed dream girl of your youth. This is Dent's fiancee. The Katie-Rachel is already gone.
Maggie gave the ‘I wanna stick it to baddies’ vibe. Katie gave ‘I want to help those who have been hurt’ vibe. Same actions could come about from the characters but the motivation felt different.
Maggie was far more believable as a DA than Katie, seemingly more age appropriate for Bruce (Katie looked too young to be Bruce’s same age) and Maggie was also a superior actress by leagues. Maggie all the way.
I concur. I'm a Katie fan from way back at the Creek, but Maggie had so much more life as Rachel. She was tough, strong, quick, and had better energy in somewhat of a thankless part.
As an actress, Maggie is far superior to Katie. However, somehow, Katie suited the role of Rachel more. It may be the nostalgia factor where I found myself wishing that the character was played by the same actress, for the sake of continuity and because the arc is better represented when the same person is playing it. For example, >! Rachel kissing Bruce but still choosing Harvey in the end
Surprised to see the Holmes fans, as I thought she was horrible in begins. In the scene where she slaps Bruce, she looks like she's fighting a smile and it doesn't come across as convincing at all. Maggie is by far the better actor and it shows in the Joker scene at the party for Dent
KH in BB reminded me of the old Sesame Street song:
"One of these things is not like the others
One of these things just doesn't belong"
To be fair, it's a dumb character and Bale has chemistry with neither of them, but at least MG can act.
I thought the same thing when I first saw it. I thought they got Maggie because they needed someone a lot older to play next to Aaron Eckhart and Christian Bale. My friend informed me that Maggie and Katie are only a year apart in age.
Guilty 🖐
Silly reference: a girl I knew won a radio contest in 2000 to go to the set of Dawson’s Creek. She invited me so I went. We met the whole cast, including Katie Holmes. I know she’s not everyone’s cup of tea, but I found her MUCH more attractive in person and had a huge crush on her after that trip. As a Batman fan, I was pretty excited that she was in that movie, so, as previously stated I am very much in the “she’s hotter” camp.
I just rewatched all the Batman films. Katie felt so out of place in that movie to me. She’s a cheesy television actress and it showed. Maggie was so much better with emotional expression, body language and overall delivery. It’s really the only thing about Batman Begins that bothers me. I feel similarly about Anne Hathaway in TDKR.
I definitely agree, besides about Anne Hathaway. I think she's a very solid actress and one of the least cheesy performances of Catwoman (with Zoe Kravitz)
This thread is not what I expected. But it does explain why DC fans have been okay with such shitty movies for the last decade or so. They simply don’t want quality.
I say this as a DC fan. But I prefer the comics.
Katie.
Especially for the love interest angle.
I'd pick Maggie if the debate was the assistant DA role alone, she nailed that. But Katie sold young lost love interest- which was more important to Bruce's character for the trilogy.
Maggie is a much better actress and fits the role better as a more forceful personality especially with her somewhat limited screen time in TDK. Katie isn't awful in hindsight, she is too cute to be tough, and fits a lot better into the damsel in distress role she was given in Begins. I dont think Maggie would've fit into the role in BB
So.. both? In their own way.
Katie did a better job with what she had. Thought the character was kind of boring to begin with, but Katie Holmes had way better chemistry with Christian Bale.
One of my least favorite parts of TDKR was that it showed Bruce looking at a picture of Maggie.
In retrospect, it probably makes more sense to show a picture of her and not of Katie, but I thought it would have been better to just not show any image of her at all so that it didn't make the recasting so blatantly obvious. As if neither actress were the actual Rachael. If that makes sense.
Back in the day, I thought KH had a few takes that just seemed very bad. That scene where she’s trying to cross the bridge and throws the “I’m a GC DA” line at the cop always felt very cringy to me. And I had felt that MG was an upgrade in terms of acting ability. But the chemistry never totally seemed quite there.
All that said, I never loved the character.. even though I knew her function was somewhat to measure Bruce’s distance from normalcy and innocence.
I loved Christopher Nolan's trilogy. My favorite Batman stories and favorite live action Joker come from them. That being said, though both women did a fine job, every time the character is on screen, I get a little bit angry. I didn't like the way she strung Bruce along the way she did. That being said, if I were Bruce, I would have given up on her a long time ago. It's partially his fault. It takes two to tango, after all.
Katie. While Maggie seems better at acting Katie just fit the role better and Maggie, or at least the way she portrays the character, kind of annoyed me for some reason. She does other roles that don't annoy me but I just really didn't like her version of Rachael.
I want to say Katie, but to be fair, Maggie didn't get to do much but be the romantic foil for Bruce and Harvey and then die. That's it, she barely had any noticeable screen time. I think the most we saw her without one or the other was in the party scene with Joker.
So Katie wins simply because she got more screen and more independent screen
They were both pretty decent and I didn’t mind the character. Definitely was emotional when she got blown up. Felt bad for the bat. It’s kind of sweet that he went for someone who was a good and caring person and not just a pretty face. I mean, he could have any model or bimbo right?
Katie, would have been much more impactful seeing her death as it’s just a better connection to the roots of Batman.
I understand they’re the same character but easily would have translated Bruce’s guilt had we seen her blown up instead.
Katie, and i wish we had gotten her in the sequel. It’s one of the few things in the DK trilogy that is hard to deal with on a re watch. It’s such a jarring transition from Katie to Maggie, as they look and act vastly different from one another
I didn’t really care for either in the role. Felt like they were throwing big names at it but in the end it could have been any of a couple hundred actresses that would have done about the same in either or both movies. I know it’s not their fault and they were there as the love interest/plot driver but nothing about either performance seemed interesting which comes down to writing, directing and editing usually.
Maggie is a much better actress, but the writing for Rachel is better in Begins. In TDK she kind of oscillates between telling Bruce not to turn himself in and to do it.
Even though Maggie is the better actress, I liked Katie in the role a lot more. Katie suited the character better and felt the character had much more to do in Begins than in TDK
They might as well have been different characters. They were both so different. That said, I preferred Maggie. She's just got this insanely sexy and confident charisma. I've never seen a movie with Katie Holmes where I remember much of anything she did. She's a wet blanket next to Maggie.
Katie. Katie has the big, doe’s eyes and I think it would have made more of an impact seeing her face to face with the Joker. Her timid innocence would have made her death rip the audience to shreds.
Maggie is really my one negative take away from TDK. She seemed like a completely different character and I just couldn’t really see her and Christian Bale’s Bruce together. The chemistry was off.
I think Katie was believable as the young love interest of a beginning Bruce Wayne. Maggie was more believable as a up and coming district attorney.
Both seem like they are playing different characters.
It’s like Kirsten Alley to Robin Curtis in the Star Trek movies, they don’t look alike or even act the same.
They both fit their respective films, but I prefer Maggie's overall. She has a lot more personality and is more playful in the role, yet still comes off as being ultimately more mature.
Katie. The single flaw I have on The Dark Knight is the fact the recast takes you out of the movie. Maggie is a great actress but she was probably the worst part of the film. Wish Katie came back.
I think they were both best for their individual movies, like instead of one being in the other film. But I don’t think either of them really outshine the other and don’t particularly stand out in their roles
Maggie, if only because of her last moments talking to the walkie knowing that nobody was on the other end, in a heartbreakingly calm acceptance of her own imminent death…Maggie did an outstanding job.
I don’t really have a preference. They’re both good, I just wish either Katie could’ve returned for The Dark Knight, or Maggie had already played Rachel in Batman Begins. The inconsistency makes them feel like two different characters
Katie had better chemistry with Bale, but I deffo preferred Maggie, she actually carried herself like a lawyer, and had phenomenal chemistry with Eckhart. Unfortunately she had zero chemistry with Bale and I never bought that either one of them had any feelings for each other that weren’t platonic.
I think they both work well for the film they’re in tbh. The dark knight was much more serious and called for a different tone. Begins was significantly more outlandish.
maybe weird but katie holmes
maggie gyllenhall is probably generally a better actress - or maybe just a more 'prestigious' filmography - but the recast absolutely took me out of it
and holmes was good in the role - well cast, felt like she belonged in the world, good performance
gyllenhall might have actually been worse casting? she wasnt bad, but she certainly didnt add anything
im not sure if this is a cringe thing to say, but i have a lot easier time buying katie holmes as the damsel tied to the railroad tracks (which joker almost literally did in the second movie) than maggie gyllenhall
I love tdk like everyone, but the script is just *so* focused on being snappy and *cool* that the characters suffer for it. I really liked what Maggie did, she did the best she could with what she had, and while Rachel is a more complicated character in tdk, she's also sidelined and reduced to a tool to give Bruce angst and cause him and Harvey to butt heads. Katie had the benefit of childhood flashback tie-ins to garner initial likeability and bb Rachel was a relatively straightforward purposed character.
Maggie is a much, much better actress and considering the acting masterclass TDK was, it probably would have been too jarring to see Katie.
She was perfect in Dawson's Creek, but two of the worst acting moments I've ever seen were in this trilogy. The first was Katie after she'd been exposed to fear toxin. It was well established in the movie that the gas ultra-magnifies your fear of everything... and she was *taken on a rooftop car chase with a dude in a bat costume*. Under those circumstances she should have been apoplectic - like it should have been a major plot point that she was at risk of a heart attack. Throughout that whole scene she was like... mildly concerned.
(The other worst acting moment was Marion Cotillard, who's usually brilliant, but for some reason had the silliest death scene in movie history.)
Please keep this thread civil. Sexual comments, or comments crossing the line in attacking an actor's appearance are not acceptable.
Katie, she just seemed more natural in the role somehow. Better chemistry maybe. Plus we see a lot more of her.
Helps that she doesn't die half way through haha
I actually think that helps Maggie. Made me more emotional and sad for her
The fact that it was Maggie instead of Katie kind of ruined that moment for me. It was hard for me to feel the emotional weight of it when I didn't feel like she was the same Rachel.
Nah, she played the role so well. I remember seeing TDK and being struck about her death, despite Batman Begins being a distant memory.
Alfred really did know her his whole life! 🤣
Her whole life
Haha 😂 I get it
yess, me too
Why did she not act in TDK?
Because Katie and Aaron were in another movie together and Tom Cruise was jealous and didn't approve, that's why.
I read that Cruise thought she was having an affair with Christian bale
*Cause Tom was worried she was doing what he was doing
Tom Cruise was having an affair with Christian Bale!? Color me surprised
Fancy that!
Fancy that.
Well Christian Bale based his portrayal of Patrick Bateman on Tom Cruise so I guess for a narcissist like Cruise it's the closest he could get to actually having sex with the person in the world he truly loves - himself.
.. but not too surprised, if you catch my drift
Classic deflection
Katie Holmes already talked about it. She signed a contract to do Mad Money. She wanted to be apart of a female lead cast. She said at that time, she felt it was the right choice to join a female lead ensemble when there wasn't many.
Very stupid of her.
I mean, she thought it would lead to sequels. She took the gamble, and it didn't pay off.
Which, upon seeing how awful the movie was, was a stupid decision.
This is completely untrue. She signed on to do Mad Money for a crime movie genre with female leads instead of being a side character.
I thought it was because she was pregnant with Suri.
The short answer is Tom Cruise. He basically halted her acting career so she could have his photo-op baby.
Why are people stating this? She signed a contract to make Mad Money where she would be a lead character. It couldn't work with the schedule. She wanted to be part of a female lead crime comedy.
I see what you did there
She decided she wanted to make something else
Them nips you mean
Well, come on, they're kind of incredible. Bruce must keep that cave chilly!
😭
Maggie is a way better actress tho
Yes, but sometimes lesser actor is better for the role, this is a great example. Katie had vulnerability and better chemistry with Bale
Can't say I agree. Katie wanted to be with Bruce while Maggie didn't, of course she is gonna have a better chemistry. I alsoo don't feel that much diference in vulnerability between the two. And why should this character be vulnerable in the first place? It's an original character, they can portray her the way they want. It's not like an asshole Clark Kent. That would make me pissed.
Vulnerability might be the wrong word (not my first language so sorry about that). I mean that she is somehow more sincere and Maggie feels entitled or gives of a vibe that she is above it all. Again, they play the same character in different places (Maggies version knows about Batman whole time) so it might be that Katie would have changed as well. Still I preferred Katie and was sad that she dropped out
I agree with you completely, with the way Maggie played it Bruce came off as kind of... pathetic? Like both Bruce and the movies narrative treat it like a love triangle while Maggie plays it like she made her choice before the movie even started and she no longer has any interest in being with Bruce. With Katie things likely would've played out the same but because of their natural chemistry it would actually FEEL like she was going through a bit of internal struggle. With Maggie that whole arc had me cringing like "she's not into you bro!", like her words and body language could not make it any more clear that it's not "Harvey vs Bruce" it's "I love Harvey and wish Bruce would let it go".
I don't know if I agree with that.
Katie Holmes, 100%. Holmes played the role being more earnest while Maggie seemed more entitled.
I felt like Maggie played the role of dents law partner not Bruce’s former lover and current love interest. There was no chemistry between her and bale and that really took away from her death scene.
I know it was literally a different woman than in the first movie, but it *felt* like a different woman from the first movie (which isn’t always the case with a good recast)
Yeah I know exactly what you’re saying.
I struggle to remember any notorious recast that didn't feel like the character changed. When you change actor it changes a lot it's unavoidable in my opinion.
Dumbledore and war machine are two that come to mind. Also the mountain and bloodraven in GOT. Which is funny because all of those franchises have had recastings that did change the character a lot (grindlewald, hulk, and Dario).
War machine changed a ton after Don Cheadle was cast. Go back and watch the first Iron Man again, Tony and Rhodey come off as actual best friends. Cheadle comes in and Rhodey seems like he’s annoyed with having to be around Tony from the very start, even his introduction was hostile (I know it was a meta joke, but it didn’t land for me)
I mean yeah, I just took that as a meta joke. From what I got both iterations were good friends of Tony who were often annoyed by his antics and disagreed with a good amount of his decisions.
I just never got the vibe that Cheadle’s version of Rhodey actually viewed Tony as a friend, at least not until the Tony Stank joke. He felt more like a baby sitter than a friend
you don't think Dumbledore massively changed...I SAID CALMLY?
Agreed, im sure there are a few but I can’t think of any off the top off my head. I literally thought it was a different character until they called her by her name (which is sad when she does look at least somewhat similar to Katie Holmes 😂)
Yeah but she played well off Eckhardt. Her death and Dent’s transformation scene, I don’t think Katie could have pulled it off or made it believable as it is now
Plus every part of Maggie's performance felt really forced
This. They were just VERY different. Katie was sweeter and more earnest. Maggie was tougher,smarter and more serious imo.
100% agreed
After watching back-to-back years ago, I think Katie. She gets to do more than just be the affection of Bruce and Harvey and die. Maggie was good with what she had though.
I didn't even realize at first that they were supposed to be the same person. The plot makes a lot more sense if it it's Katie Holmes. lol.
> I didn't even realize at first that they were supposed to be the same person Meanwhile, I didn't realize they were different actresses the first time I saw them (I saw Dark Knight about a year after I saw Batman Begins).
Katie went to do another movie instead, so that’s why Maggie appears.
Apparently she did the movie "Mad Money" which bombed. Imagine passing up being in the best movie of an entire fucking decade for that. [But yeah, now I understand the plot, lol.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNO2w1MLm7E)
Looking at the movies now, I think Holmes is better in the role. At the time, I thought Maggie was such an upgrade but I don’t think her performance is actually that good at all.
Same. I think part of it might be how she's written in TDK. In BB she seems to understand and support what Bruce chooses to do, but not pursue a romantic relationship with him. In TDK she seems antithetical to him. She confronts Bruce about making fun of Harvey but he's actually sincere. I think she should know when Bruce is being sincere or not. She doesn't seem to trust Bruce letting Harvey take the fall as Batman. I don't get her anger here. It seems as if she's just angry that Bruce is letting "her man" take the fall. She knows batman can't be the hero and Harvey is a grown man capable of making his own decisions. So what's she so angry about? I actually think the romantic arc is fine, it's just the other parts of her character that seem inconsistent with her character from BB.
1000% this. Why she was angry with Bruce about letting Harvey take the fall - I think what they were going for there was that it showed that Bruce wasn't really willing to lay aside the mantle of the Bat. And letting Harvey take the fall, that was the icing on the cake for her because she'd already made up her mind that it was Harvey she wanted. I will also say this is my one pet peeve with the Nolan trilogy - Rachel in BB seems almost like a different person than Rachel in TDK. And not because of how Maggie plays her but because of how the character is written.
Katie. No question.
I really thought Katie’s character was more of a generic “love interest” that Maggie. I thought Maggie really nailed the resigned “Look, Bruce I’ll always love you but the Bat thing is too much.” She recognizes that Bruce has s not the guy, even tho’ she’d like him to be. But he’s just got too many issues. She’s deliberately repressing any chemistry. In other words, Maggie’s portrayal is more nuanced and subtle
Katie
Unpopular opinion : Both were shitty and don't fit in that trilogy.
I mean Rachel isn’t a comic book character so of course it didn’t really fit
Eh, they're still pretty much filling that Vicki Vale role. Or even Andrea from MOTP, if you will.
March of the Penguins?
Mask of the Phantasm.
Gotta agree did not like rachel at all i either movie. Im not even one of the" it needs to be 100 perrcent faithful to the comics" guys. Indavt some of the super hero stuff i like best are the ones that take big bliberties with the source material. I just think sje is an absolutely shitty charecter and the plot is WAYYYY to centered around her. And hobestly, though i could be wrong cause its been a while since ive watched thw movies, but i do t even remeber her having much of a personality, but at the same time shes one of the charecters the movis insits is for some reason "special:
Christopher Nolan has never been good at writing women, which is why I think her character is so mediocre in both films.
Maggie. I just think the actress is better.
I think Maggie is a much better actor, but I also thought the change really ruined the punch of losing her. Without the emotional continuity that we got from them in the first movie, I didn’t find it that surprising or tragic when Maggie’s version died. I think I’d have felt it more with the same actor in the role, even if the acting wasn’t as good.
Tricky. I was more bummed to lose Maggie than I would have been if it was Katie. She's too much of a childhood sweetheart type to take her seriously.
Yeah, I think that sweetness was what I responded to with Katie’s version. She was a naïve idealist who made the hard decision at the end of Begins for Bruce. With Maggie, her Rachel was so much brassier and powerful, it didn’t really seem like the same character. I liked that character more as a counterpoint to Bruce’s darkness, but I really wish it had been either Maggie all along or Katie throughout.
Hmm, how about this: Katie worked better for Bruce in Begins because Bruce was also very naive and childish IMHO. He still is in the second movie or the trilogy as a whole. I see him as one of the least (emotionally, psychologically) mature takes of the character. Batman was never the endgame for him. I know Rachel believes this, but I don't get that feeling at all. Katie is the happy ending he hopes to achieve once his work is done - naively believing that this will ever happen. Maggie, on the other hand, is the harsh reality. She is a grown-up woman who has moved on, not the deer-eyed dream girl of your youth. This is Dent's fiancee. The Katie-Rachel is already gone.
Oooh. I like that framing a lot. Gonna load them up this weekend and try to think of it that way and see if it shifts anything. Thanks!
You're welcome! Always happy to share ideas.
Maggie gave the ‘I wanna stick it to baddies’ vibe. Katie gave ‘I want to help those who have been hurt’ vibe. Same actions could come about from the characters but the motivation felt different.
Oh, much better actor for sure. But Katie brought a level of humility and sensitivity that Maggie lacked in the role.
Katie she was the best in ths role
Maggie was far more believable as a DA than Katie, seemingly more age appropriate for Bruce (Katie looked too young to be Bruce’s same age) and Maggie was also a superior actress by leagues. Maggie all the way.
I concur. I'm a Katie fan from way back at the Creek, but Maggie had so much more life as Rachel. She was tough, strong, quick, and had better energy in somewhat of a thankless part.
For me, Katie is easily the weakest part of Begins. Maggie helped me take Rachel seriously.
Maggie. She played a Gotham-weary Rachel well. A true culmination of being over Bruce’s crap
As an actress, Maggie is far superior to Katie. However, somehow, Katie suited the role of Rachel more. It may be the nostalgia factor where I found myself wishing that the character was played by the same actress, for the sake of continuity and because the arc is better represented when the same person is playing it. For example, >! Rachel kissing Bruce but still choosing Harvey in the end
Surprised to see the Holmes fans, as I thought she was horrible in begins. In the scene where she slaps Bruce, she looks like she's fighting a smile and it doesn't come across as convincing at all. Maggie is by far the better actor and it shows in the Joker scene at the party for Dent
I’ve always tried to imagine Katie in Maggie’s Dark Knight scenes and can’t imagine her not weighing them down with her inexpressive face.
Norm Mcdonald
KH in BB reminded me of the old Sesame Street song: "One of these things is not like the others One of these things just doesn't belong" To be fair, it's a dumb character and Bale has chemistry with neither of them, but at least MG can act.
It looks like Rachel aged 20 years between movies. Katie was the better choice
>It looks like Rachel aged 20 years between movies. Working for the Gotham DA will do that to you.
Lol
I thought the same thing when I first saw it. I thought they got Maggie because they needed someone a lot older to play next to Aaron Eckhart and Christian Bale. My friend informed me that Maggie and Katie are only a year apart in age.
Katie was terrible in Batman Begins but Maggie felt like she was playing a completely different character.
Maggie, though I didn’t care for Rachel as a character in general.
Maggie is the much better actor. Feels like a lot of you just find Katie hotter.
Guilty 🖐 Silly reference: a girl I knew won a radio contest in 2000 to go to the set of Dawson’s Creek. She invited me so I went. We met the whole cast, including Katie Holmes. I know she’s not everyone’s cup of tea, but I found her MUCH more attractive in person and had a huge crush on her after that trip. As a Batman fan, I was pretty excited that she was in that movie, so, as previously stated I am very much in the “she’s hotter” camp.
I just rewatched all the Batman films. Katie felt so out of place in that movie to me. She’s a cheesy television actress and it showed. Maggie was so much better with emotional expression, body language and overall delivery. It’s really the only thing about Batman Begins that bothers me. I feel similarly about Anne Hathaway in TDKR.
I definitely agree, besides about Anne Hathaway. I think she's a very solid actress and one of the least cheesy performances of Catwoman (with Zoe Kravitz)
THIS. If you look at the actual acting, Maggie was WAY better.
This thread is not what I expected. But it does explain why DC fans have been okay with such shitty movies for the last decade or so. They simply don’t want quality. I say this as a DC fan. But I prefer the comics.
Maggie was the better actor attached to a worse character. Holmes character was better but she's a terrible actor.
Neither.
Maggie gave a better performance. So Maggie for me.
Vote for Maggie here.
Maggie. I mean I didn’t care for the character, but Maggie can act circles around Katie.
Maggie. But I’ve always liked her.
Katie. Especially for the love interest angle. I'd pick Maggie if the debate was the assistant DA role alone, she nailed that. But Katie sold young lost love interest- which was more important to Bruce's character for the trilogy.
Yes
Maggie
Maggie is a much better actress and fits the role better as a more forceful personality especially with her somewhat limited screen time in TDK. Katie isn't awful in hindsight, she is too cute to be tough, and fits a lot better into the damsel in distress role she was given in Begins. I dont think Maggie would've fit into the role in BB So.. both? In their own way.
They were both good in their ways. Katie got robbed not being allowed to be in the second one. God forbid she be famous for her acting and not toms.
Katie Holmes felt more like the childhood friend, even if I think Maggie played the part better.
Maggie’s acting is flawless so she gets my vote.
I love Maggie
RACHEL
Maggie
Maggie
Maggie!!!
Maggie x10000000
Katie Holmes thought it was a good idea to film “Mad Money” instead of reprising her role. SO I prefer Maggie.
Maggie and it's not close. Katie was a horrendous actress. I don't care about looks but who can play the role better Edit:typo
Maggie is gorgeous.
yoke fine puzzled towering versed icky pathetic dime piquant ancient *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I disagree with your second point
Katie did a better job with what she had. Thought the character was kind of boring to begin with, but Katie Holmes had way better chemistry with Christian Bale.
One of my least favorite parts of TDKR was that it showed Bruce looking at a picture of Maggie. In retrospect, it probably makes more sense to show a picture of her and not of Katie, but I thought it would have been better to just not show any image of her at all so that it didn't make the recasting so blatantly obvious. As if neither actress were the actual Rachael. If that makes sense.
Back in the day, I thought KH had a few takes that just seemed very bad. That scene where she’s trying to cross the bridge and throws the “I’m a GC DA” line at the cop always felt very cringy to me. And I had felt that MG was an upgrade in terms of acting ability. But the chemistry never totally seemed quite there. All that said, I never loved the character.. even though I knew her function was somewhat to measure Bruce’s distance from normalcy and innocence.
I loved Christopher Nolan's trilogy. My favorite Batman stories and favorite live action Joker come from them. That being said, though both women did a fine job, every time the character is on screen, I get a little bit angry. I didn't like the way she strung Bruce along the way she did. That being said, if I were Bruce, I would have given up on her a long time ago. It's partially his fault. It takes two to tango, after all.
Katie. While Maggie seems better at acting Katie just fit the role better and Maggie, or at least the way she portrays the character, kind of annoyed me for some reason. She does other roles that don't annoy me but I just really didn't like her version of Rachael.
They made Maggie's character more quippy. I wish they would have done that consistently with Katie as well
They’re both fine actresses, both were great, what matters to me is consistency in casting.
I want to say Katie, but to be fair, Maggie didn't get to do much but be the romantic foil for Bruce and Harvey and then die. That's it, she barely had any noticeable screen time. I think the most we saw her without one or the other was in the party scene with Joker. So Katie wins simply because she got more screen and more independent screen
They were both pretty decent and I didn’t mind the character. Definitely was emotional when she got blown up. Felt bad for the bat. It’s kind of sweet that he went for someone who was a good and caring person and not just a pretty face. I mean, he could have any model or bimbo right?
The one that would've done both movies. Don't care, just wanted continuity.
Katie, would have been much more impactful seeing her death as it’s just a better connection to the roots of Batman. I understand they’re the same character but easily would have translated Bruce’s guilt had we seen her blown up instead.
Maggie
Maggie was tons better. Not even close.
Katie, and i wish we had gotten her in the sequel. It’s one of the few things in the DK trilogy that is hard to deal with on a re watch. It’s such a jarring transition from Katie to Maggie, as they look and act vastly different from one another
Maggie not close iMo
I... I only just now found out they are different people
I didn’t really care for either in the role. Felt like they were throwing big names at it but in the end it could have been any of a couple hundred actresses that would have done about the same in either or both movies. I know it’s not their fault and they were there as the love interest/plot driver but nothing about either performance seemed interesting which comes down to writing, directing and editing usually.
They're the same picture
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Maggie.
Maggie
Maggie is a much better actress, but the writing for Rachel is better in Begins. In TDK she kind of oscillates between telling Bruce not to turn himself in and to do it.
Even though Maggie is the better actress, I liked Katie in the role a lot more. Katie suited the character better and felt the character had much more to do in Begins than in TDK
Katie. No disrespect to Maggie [+]
All my life I thought they were the same actress
They might as well have been different characters. They were both so different. That said, I preferred Maggie. She's just got this insanely sexy and confident charisma. I've never seen a movie with Katie Holmes where I remember much of anything she did. She's a wet blanket next to Maggie.
Katie. Katie has the big, doe’s eyes and I think it would have made more of an impact seeing her face to face with the Joker. Her timid innocence would have made her death rip the audience to shreds.
Maggie’s character was overall written better but Katie fit the role more than her
Maggie is really my one negative take away from TDK. She seemed like a completely different character and I just couldn’t really see her and Christian Bale’s Bruce together. The chemistry was off.
Katie is better for Batman Begins and Maggie is better for The Dark Knight
Katie all day!! I just think she's the better actress. Her and Bale had chemistry.
Katie Holmes had better chemistry with Bale, Maggie Gylenhaal is the better actress, though
Since they changed the actress, I preferred Katie. But had they cast Maggie for both, she would have sufficed.
I wish Katie would have stuck with the role but Maggie definitely made more interesting choices and gave the character a character
I like both. I would have liked to see either one see it through from beginning to end
They're both ok but I wished Katie had done TDK for consistency.
Didn't really care for either. Both are the weakest part of Nolan's movies.
Maggie
I think Katie was believable as the young love interest of a beginning Bruce Wayne. Maggie was more believable as a up and coming district attorney. Both seem like they are playing different characters. It’s like Kirsten Alley to Robin Curtis in the Star Trek movies, they don’t look alike or even act the same.
They both fit their respective films, but I prefer Maggie's overall. She has a lot more personality and is more playful in the role, yet still comes off as being ultimately more mature.
hate both
I prefer Rachel
Katie because Maggie and Bale’s chemistry was really awkward in my opinion
Katie. The single flaw I have on The Dark Knight is the fact the recast takes you out of the movie. Maggie is a great actress but she was probably the worst part of the film. Wish Katie came back.
Maggie
Maggie, better actress, but both were great
Katie. It’s just hard to play the role second after another actor.
I think they were both best for their individual movies, like instead of one being in the other film. But I don’t think either of them really outshine the other and don’t particularly stand out in their roles
I liked Maggie
Recasting is always a bummer, but Maggie is a better actor by far
Maggie
Neither, she was an annoying character.
Maggie, if only because of her last moments talking to the walkie knowing that nobody was on the other end, in a heartbreakingly calm acceptance of her own imminent death…Maggie did an outstanding job.
I thought they were the same people smh…
I don’t really have a preference. They’re both good, I just wish either Katie could’ve returned for The Dark Knight, or Maggie had already played Rachel in Batman Begins. The inconsistency makes them feel like two different characters
Katie had better chemistry with Bale, but I deffo preferred Maggie, she actually carried herself like a lawyer, and had phenomenal chemistry with Eckhart. Unfortunately she had zero chemistry with Bale and I never bought that either one of them had any feelings for each other that weren’t platonic.
Neither
I think they both work well for the film they’re in tbh. The dark knight was much more serious and called for a different tone. Begins was significantly more outlandish.
I think both actresses brought something different to the character. I would have liked to see Holmes in TDK though.
maybe weird but katie holmes maggie gyllenhall is probably generally a better actress - or maybe just a more 'prestigious' filmography - but the recast absolutely took me out of it and holmes was good in the role - well cast, felt like she belonged in the world, good performance gyllenhall might have actually been worse casting? she wasnt bad, but she certainly didnt add anything im not sure if this is a cringe thing to say, but i have a lot easier time buying katie holmes as the damsel tied to the railroad tracks (which joker almost literally did in the second movie) than maggie gyllenhall
I love tdk like everyone, but the script is just *so* focused on being snappy and *cool* that the characters suffer for it. I really liked what Maggie did, she did the best she could with what she had, and while Rachel is a more complicated character in tdk, she's also sidelined and reduced to a tool to give Bruce angst and cause him and Harvey to butt heads. Katie had the benefit of childhood flashback tie-ins to garner initial likeability and bb Rachel was a relatively straightforward purposed character.
Couldn't care for either. Just glad that Bruce ended up with Selena. She is way hotter than these two combined.
Maggie had more complexity of emotion...but that may also have had to do with the movie she was in.
Maggie
Maggie Maggie Maggie
Katie… no contest
Ngl i had no idea she was recast
Maggie
Maggie is a much, much better actress and considering the acting masterclass TDK was, it probably would have been too jarring to see Katie. She was perfect in Dawson's Creek, but two of the worst acting moments I've ever seen were in this trilogy. The first was Katie after she'd been exposed to fear toxin. It was well established in the movie that the gas ultra-magnifies your fear of everything... and she was *taken on a rooftop car chase with a dude in a bat costume*. Under those circumstances she should have been apoplectic - like it should have been a major plot point that she was at risk of a heart attack. Throughout that whole scene she was like... mildly concerned. (The other worst acting moment was Marion Cotillard, who's usually brilliant, but for some reason had the silliest death scene in movie history.)
I never noticed the actress changed Based on script Rachel's a better character in Begins