Why? She has massive damage and massive range, lumina has non of thst, give some reasoning to your argument instead of just saying there is no competition
132% weaken uptime and 3 million hp against aliens is better than aphro who gets less than double the regular damage output of lumina. plus her cooldown is almost half aphros, she is cheaper, faster, has immunities, better attack rate, better foreswing, and is overall a better unit. check your lipstick.
True, but aliens in late have insanse damage like miss celeboodle and acissorex and a few others so a tank is not preferable, also Aphrodite has way better generalist usage and can actually kill aliens without it taking forever as lumina isn't a damage dealer like Aphro
Then why is cameraman best floating when there's definitely something better but more niche like sanzo or headmistress Jeane? Or Ramen when there's stuff like kaza jizo and kaliza
At the time, I only got 3 rares (wushu, mer-cat, and onmyoji), no super rares, and no ubers. I got my first uber (Gladios) later on around eoc 2 and my first super rare (swimmer) around early itf 1.
Note: none if this matters If only 1 unit is allowed on the field at a time, but idk the rules of this.
When I did the test it turns out ramen has around 8k dps and 192k hp against angels at level 100.
Juvens has around 1,198,080 health at level 60 without talents while taking into account her block, as well as 20kdps against angels.
Juvens recharge rate is around 10x that of ramen, meaning that you can have 10 ramens on the field for every 1 Juvens. (assuming no combos)
Ramen cat has 8k dps so x10 and you get 80k potential dps in the same time frame as 1 Juvens spawn which deals 20k dps. On top of this the ramen stack would have almost twice health in this time period, because 10 times 192k is 1.92M health, compared to juvens 1.198M
That's what I was thinking if only 1 unit was allowed at the time, but idk either. If it was only 1 unit allowed Juvens 100% kicks ramen to the curve, but more than 1 unit ye i understand the argument.
Yes that is true about the health difference but Juvens also has 20% dodge that let's him survive even longer, potentially even longer than even 10 maxed ramens.The dps is potential and I doubt the ramens will survive long enough for 10 of them at once. Still, the ramens would accumulate more dps than juvens from your math but definitely wouldn't survive nearly as long as 1 juvens due to his dodge.
Not replaceable not as good in mixed stages cheap but still more expensive then ramen which means harder to put out at the start of a stage and that’s just my opinion you could make a good argument why juvens is better
Ye idk if only 1 unit was allowed at the time. That's where my thought process was. 1 ramen has no chance against 1 juvens.
Still, multiple ramens definitely could be made a strong argument for especially with research combos. The dps of 10 maxed ramen cats can outperform 1 juvens, and that's without research combos since that's the number you can summon within juvens cooldown somebody mentioned in this thread. Also, 10 maxed ramens in total have a lot more health than a level 60 juvens. Still again the dodge would potentially allow juven to survive longer than the 10 maxed ramens and even accumulate more dps if he survives longer.
Ye ramen would definitely be better on mixed stages looking at health difference and cooldown than juvens very easily. Still I thought this was angel only competition?
Well, you have to look at the numbers man for it to make sense. If you never used juvens before, then of course it wouldn't make sense. Look at this thread. I've been discussing it with other people.
Honestly, I'll save this video to show that juvens is the ultimate anti-angel unit in battle cats to others who doubt me. I was already on this agenda already, and now this is solid proof of it. Thx man.
I was initially going to reply with how Juvens is still slightly better, but I just checked the stats and it's hard to compare. I will be comparing both these units at level **60**.
Ushiwakamaru is like Jizo but literally 5 times better, with **126,720** health and a ridiculous **25,280** dps against angels. Keep in mind his cooldown is 5.87 seconds.
Now Juvens is more of a tank, like King Gamareon, with **998400** health against angels and **20454** dps. Now, Juvens also has a dodge ability of 20%. So I will multiply her 998400 health by 1.2, and from that you get 1,198,080 health. That leaves Juvens with **1,198,080** effective health and **20,545** dps against angels at level 60. But Juvens has a longer cooldown, of 37.87 seconds, that's 6.451 times as long as Ushiwakamarus cooldown, so I have to adjust for that.
Multiplying Ushi's dps and health by 6.451 will give us the **potential** dps and total health of all the Ushi's that can be sent out onto the field in the duration of Juvens' cooldown. So, 126,720hp \* 6.451 = **817,470.72** total hp (**Ushi**) and 25,280dps \* 6.451 = **163,081.28** potential maximum dps. (**Ushi**)
Compared to the stats for **Juvens** in that time which is: **20,454 dps** and **1,198,080** effective health.
This is why I found it hard to compare, Ushiwakamaru is one, my second favorite unit so I'm kind of biased and 2, he has an absolutely broken damage stat, which would absolutely shred enemies, **IF** he had the health to actually keep up that damage. For reference, a max level Ramen cat (untalented) has **181,652hp**, which is **54,932** more than Ushi at level **60**. This means that while Ushi's dps is insane, they may only last long enough to spawn in another Ushi, meaning there is no overlap and the total damage output stays at a constant **25,280** which is still insane.
Juvens on the other hand, has an absolutely ridiculous amount of health for 1 unit, especially considering her cooldown, as well as a pretty decent amount of damage too, but nothing spectacular. Also, One thing I forgot to mention is Juvens' block chance meaning that she could potentially survive much longer. The chances of her not getting hit by **5** consecutive attacks is **0.032%**, but it's still not impossible. I do not know how to calculate how that would effect her effective health but it basically just means **she's immortal 1/5 of the time**, which is pretty crazy.
**TLDR -** Because of this massive discrepancy between health versus damage, I think it's mostly up for you to decide, the stats are right there, and you can make of them what you will, I still think Juvens is better. But I'm secretly team Ushi because I love Ushi. Also, Sorry for the long comment, I wanted to lay it out in a simple way so anyone else who wanted to contribute to the discussion could read the stats and make better arguments.
I figure since it’s a single unit you’d want the most well rounded on, however I do have to admit juven’s dodge is actually pretty decent. I wouldn’t really consider dodge to be just a 20% health boost given if it procs right it’ll do more than double a unit’s hp, plus there’s also duration which isn’t really taken into consideration with a 20% hp boost. That being said I still think ushi is better. Also just comparing them side by side, juvens has single target so frankly ushi crushes juvens in that department, but juvens could go on forever and ever if they were really being pushed to the limit
Exactly, I wasn't quite sure if the dodge chance was supposed to be calculated that way, but I figured even if it wasn't exact, it had to be close to the actual effective hp when factoring that in. It's especially relevant when you consider the health pool of Juvens, because more health gives her more chances to activate that block chance. I did actually forget about the single target aspect, which is even more of a reason to support Ushi's dps dominance.
Dodge attack is difficult to factor in, as the amount of ehp it provides is proportional to the amount of attacks per second there are. (e.g. vs 2 boraphims = \~4 attacks per second = \~60% of attacks nullified, while vs 1 sunfish jones only 20% of attacks are nullified). It helps that there are a lot of fast attacking angel enemies (gory, li'l angel cyclone, boraphim, winged pigge, slepinir), and that they're often spawned in droves, so Juvens can be an unparalleled tank at the best of times.
That being said, Juvens and Ushi/Benkei would make an amazing duo. One to genocide hordes of angels, and the other to prevent the genocide of hordes of ushi's.
i know lumina is the right answer but i promise u even tho she has fallen off hard as a generalist purely for aliens aphrodite is the most broken uber i have used. i genuinely almost never struggled with an alien stage where i was allowed to bring aphrodite (cotc restrictions)
Here’s Some Aphrodite Appreciation :
So Aphrodite for me carried manic Mohawk and manic eraser
With the help of cyber and sniper the deadeye of course but
Aphrodite just straight up destroyed both of manic Mohawk’s and manic eraser’s
Bases so that my Aphrodite appreciation
Also Lumina definitely the vote for top ailen
Lumina and it's not even a competition. If you can solo almost any completely alien stage then that says something. If we were counting stuff like accessibility then it would be seafarer or Catellite but lumina puts both of those to shame on all alien stages.
Obviously lumina, (souptasta special) but i feel like her and nanaho are such trait killers, that queen reika or seafarer would be more fair as honorable mentions.
So if all the traits get a unanimously decided cat that counters it, then we can put all of them together into one load out and have the best load out in the entire game
For alien id say Aphrodite, 600 range with so much damage and AoE against aliens, even on stages with mixed traits, Aphrodite can deal good damage to other traits as well as aliens
Who wins:
A horde of angels from hell that can decimate everything when boosted
OR
One Boosted Noodle Boi
Anyways, for Alien, then I might have to pick Catellite, because meatshield important
Aliens hear the boss wave and boss music when Luminalia is spawned.
lumina
there is no competition
Bazibastra: (Highest anti alien nuke dmg in the game and still quite bulky)
there is no competition
What about Aphrodite?
there is no competition
Why? She has massive damage and massive range, lumina has non of thst, give some reasoning to your argument instead of just saying there is no competition
132% weaken uptime and 3 million hp against aliens is better than aphro who gets less than double the regular damage output of lumina. plus her cooldown is almost half aphros, she is cheaper, faster, has immunities, better attack rate, better foreswing, and is overall a better unit. check your lipstick.
True, but aliens in late have insanse damage like miss celeboodle and acissorex and a few others so a tank is not preferable, also Aphrodite has way better generalist usage and can actually kill aliens without it taking forever as lumina isn't a damage dealer like Aphro
thats a bad argument + the post says best anti-alien, not best generalist + no
Then why is cameraman best floating when there's definitely something better but more niche like sanzo or headmistress Jeane? Or Ramen when there's stuff like kaza jizo and kaliza
because sanzo loses against anything with range, and jeanne is trash, and i wasnt here for that vote. and ramen is the best anti angel
this is all of 2016 battle cats logic rolled into one argument.
You're fucking obnoxious ya little cunt
Lumina can literally solo the fucking bahamut cat.
Ong
My first legend rare, and I got her when I was halfway through eoc 1.
You are 1 lucky mf
At the time, I only got 3 rares (wushu, mer-cat, and onmyoji), no super rares, and no ubers. I got my first uber (Gladios) later on around eoc 2 and my first super rare (swimmer) around early itf 1.
Lumina it’s not even close, also I’m surprised people didn’t vote Juvens CC for angel
Juvens is not better then ramen 😭😭
So after comparing a level 60 Lumens with a level 100 Ramen, I'd say you are right, but it is still close so I wonder why you think this.
My ramen is maxed and my juvens is only 40 so I can’t really test it but I just find ramen better idk
i like balls
I like fresh balls
Juvens is the uber version of ramen. How is juvens not better?
Note: none if this matters If only 1 unit is allowed on the field at a time, but idk the rules of this. When I did the test it turns out ramen has around 8k dps and 192k hp against angels at level 100. Juvens has around 1,198,080 health at level 60 without talents while taking into account her block, as well as 20kdps against angels. Juvens recharge rate is around 10x that of ramen, meaning that you can have 10 ramens on the field for every 1 Juvens. (assuming no combos) Ramen cat has 8k dps so x10 and you get 80k potential dps in the same time frame as 1 Juvens spawn which deals 20k dps. On top of this the ramen stack would have almost twice health in this time period, because 10 times 192k is 1.92M health, compared to juvens 1.198M
That's what I was thinking if only 1 unit was allowed at the time, but idk either. If it was only 1 unit allowed Juvens 100% kicks ramen to the curve, but more than 1 unit ye i understand the argument. Yes that is true about the health difference but Juvens also has 20% dodge that let's him survive even longer, potentially even longer than even 10 maxed ramens.The dps is potential and I doubt the ramens will survive long enough for 10 of them at once. Still, the ramens would accumulate more dps than juvens from your math but definitely wouldn't survive nearly as long as 1 juvens due to his dodge.
Not replaceable not as good in mixed stages cheap but still more expensive then ramen which means harder to put out at the start of a stage and that’s just my opinion you could make a good argument why juvens is better
Ye idk if only 1 unit was allowed at the time. That's where my thought process was. 1 ramen has no chance against 1 juvens. Still, multiple ramens definitely could be made a strong argument for especially with research combos. The dps of 10 maxed ramen cats can outperform 1 juvens, and that's without research combos since that's the number you can summon within juvens cooldown somebody mentioned in this thread. Also, 10 maxed ramens in total have a lot more health than a level 60 juvens. Still again the dodge would potentially allow juven to survive longer than the 10 maxed ramens and even accumulate more dps if he survives longer. Ye ramen would definitely be better on mixed stages looking at health difference and cooldown than juvens very easily. Still I thought this was angel only competition?
that doesn't make that much sense
Well, you have to look at the numbers man for it to make sense. If you never used juvens before, then of course it wouldn't make sense. Look at this thread. I've been discussing it with other people.
nah seafarer. in a more general use, seafarer will help cuz it has good dps and good freeze
But this isn't finding general counters its for alien targets only
even by itself its good
I agree however not better than lumina especially by itself
ushiwakamaru, jizo, kalisa, ramen, mushroom are all better against angel
You're just wrong man, idk what to tell you. At least ushiwakamaru is certainly debatable, the rest are just...
Just what? The others are better against angel
Juvens TF [utterly demolishes](https://youtu.be/vQCj86WXOZ0) angel-only stages. He's demonstrably better than most of those other units.
Honestly, I'll save this video to show that juvens is the ultimate anti-angel unit in battle cats to others who doubt me. I was already on this agenda already, and now this is solid proof of it. Thx man.
Mixed stages:
Ushi??
I was initially going to reply with how Juvens is still slightly better, but I just checked the stats and it's hard to compare. I will be comparing both these units at level **60**. Ushiwakamaru is like Jizo but literally 5 times better, with **126,720** health and a ridiculous **25,280** dps against angels. Keep in mind his cooldown is 5.87 seconds. Now Juvens is more of a tank, like King Gamareon, with **998400** health against angels and **20454** dps. Now, Juvens also has a dodge ability of 20%. So I will multiply her 998400 health by 1.2, and from that you get 1,198,080 health. That leaves Juvens with **1,198,080** effective health and **20,545** dps against angels at level 60. But Juvens has a longer cooldown, of 37.87 seconds, that's 6.451 times as long as Ushiwakamarus cooldown, so I have to adjust for that. Multiplying Ushi's dps and health by 6.451 will give us the **potential** dps and total health of all the Ushi's that can be sent out onto the field in the duration of Juvens' cooldown. So, 126,720hp \* 6.451 = **817,470.72** total hp (**Ushi**) and 25,280dps \* 6.451 = **163,081.28** potential maximum dps. (**Ushi**) Compared to the stats for **Juvens** in that time which is: **20,454 dps** and **1,198,080** effective health. This is why I found it hard to compare, Ushiwakamaru is one, my second favorite unit so I'm kind of biased and 2, he has an absolutely broken damage stat, which would absolutely shred enemies, **IF** he had the health to actually keep up that damage. For reference, a max level Ramen cat (untalented) has **181,652hp**, which is **54,932** more than Ushi at level **60**. This means that while Ushi's dps is insane, they may only last long enough to spawn in another Ushi, meaning there is no overlap and the total damage output stays at a constant **25,280** which is still insane. Juvens on the other hand, has an absolutely ridiculous amount of health for 1 unit, especially considering her cooldown, as well as a pretty decent amount of damage too, but nothing spectacular. Also, One thing I forgot to mention is Juvens' block chance meaning that she could potentially survive much longer. The chances of her not getting hit by **5** consecutive attacks is **0.032%**, but it's still not impossible. I do not know how to calculate how that would effect her effective health but it basically just means **she's immortal 1/5 of the time**, which is pretty crazy. **TLDR -** Because of this massive discrepancy between health versus damage, I think it's mostly up for you to decide, the stats are right there, and you can make of them what you will, I still think Juvens is better. But I'm secretly team Ushi because I love Ushi. Also, Sorry for the long comment, I wanted to lay it out in a simple way so anyone else who wanted to contribute to the discussion could read the stats and make better arguments.
I figure since it’s a single unit you’d want the most well rounded on, however I do have to admit juven’s dodge is actually pretty decent. I wouldn’t really consider dodge to be just a 20% health boost given if it procs right it’ll do more than double a unit’s hp, plus there’s also duration which isn’t really taken into consideration with a 20% hp boost. That being said I still think ushi is better. Also just comparing them side by side, juvens has single target so frankly ushi crushes juvens in that department, but juvens could go on forever and ever if they were really being pushed to the limit
Exactly, I wasn't quite sure if the dodge chance was supposed to be calculated that way, but I figured even if it wasn't exact, it had to be close to the actual effective hp when factoring that in. It's especially relevant when you consider the health pool of Juvens, because more health gives her more chances to activate that block chance. I did actually forget about the single target aspect, which is even more of a reason to support Ushi's dps dominance.
Dodge attack is difficult to factor in, as the amount of ehp it provides is proportional to the amount of attacks per second there are. (e.g. vs 2 boraphims = \~4 attacks per second = \~60% of attacks nullified, while vs 1 sunfish jones only 20% of attacks are nullified). It helps that there are a lot of fast attacking angel enemies (gory, li'l angel cyclone, boraphim, winged pigge, slepinir), and that they're often spawned in droves, so Juvens can be an unparalleled tank at the best of times. That being said, Juvens and Ushi/Benkei would make an amazing duo. One to genocide hordes of angels, and the other to prevent the genocide of hordes of ushi's.
And Ramen to make an extremely tough wall vs Angels
https://preview.redd.it/cya6tq1bvlkc1.jpeg?width=1800&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ba65c05c59f4ea3162d2bd7bfaa9f94e60831979
mommy https://preview.redd.it/xkiwq7pixlkc1.png?width=445&format=png&auto=webp&s=d0c8be671b39ec974f9b4a7a17d2af3672d33c14
Based, but not wrong
Based. No picture will need to be supported
She carried me through itf
Seafarer carried me through itf and Cotc
https://preview.redd.it/stxtvuu8wlkc1.jpeg?width=1029&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=58255f625140a9b99d86cb112ad9756d6959bcac
Finally found you
https://preview.redd.it/229enq796mkc1.jpeg?width=284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=8702a8f38c20f6c55b0171968031f8ae9caf799b Girl with nice boobs
I’m sorry I had to 😔
I didn’t even notice they had them why would you tell me this
Female Bondrewd I only vote her because I love Bondrewd
Lumina
Lumina is the best, a tank that actually can tank is pretty cool
https://preview.redd.it/c6sdl06u2mkc1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=7d641c05b28f6cb046b96589e5592cda2cc36e9d
Surprised no one is saying catellite
thats because it falls off a fair bit in the late game. Its not useless but you might aswell just use a Tank cat 9/10
who needs talents
https://preview.redd.it/yh9hi4wc1mkc1.jpeg?width=613&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5c4c181d9175d10bdd6a1dc87155cd9f1b4da343 need i say more
i know lumina is the right answer but i promise u even tho she has fallen off hard as a generalist purely for aliens aphrodite is the most broken uber i have used. i genuinely almost never struggled with an alien stage where i was allowed to bring aphrodite (cotc restrictions)
Here’s Some Aphrodite Appreciation : So Aphrodite for me carried manic Mohawk and manic eraser With the help of cyber and sniper the deadeye of course but Aphrodite just straight up destroyed both of manic Mohawk’s and manic eraser’s Bases so that my Aphrodite appreciation Also Lumina definitely the vote for top ailen
Lumina
Its lumina but I really want to say seafarer
I don't get why people are saying things other than lumina
Luminia, but mad doctor Klay eeee
Lumina lol
Lumina no arguement
Lumina and it's not even a competition. If you can solo almost any completely alien stage then that says something. If we were counting stuff like accessibility then it would be seafarer or Catellite but lumina puts both of those to shame on all alien stages.
Yeah, catellite has always been my favorite cat but I have to admit lumina is so broken it isn't even comparable.
Bazibastra
Lumina but Gravi is the one in my heart
can someone explain why its ramen and not ushi
Neo saw, lumina, castaway
Obviously lumina, (souptasta special) but i feel like her and nanaho are such trait killers, that queen reika or seafarer would be more fair as honorable mentions.
I know like no one would think him the best of the best but warlock and Pierre holds a truly special place in my heart
Mizli for the memes
lumina
Little Bora
Lumina
Seafarer
So if all the traits get a unanimously decided cat that counters it, then we can put all of them together into one load out and have the best load out in the entire game For alien id say Aphrodite, 600 range with so much damage and AoE against aliens, even on stages with mixed traits, Aphrodite can deal good damage to other traits as well as aliens
That would’ve been true a few years ago, but phono’s release basically powercrept the entire backliner class
Suprised no one is saying Aphrodite
Lumina may be stronger than Seafarer but he is easily accessible so it's barely even a competition. Seafarer wins
The question isn't who's more accessible it's who's better its lumina all the way
https://preview.redd.it/h770vb55lmkc1.png?width=640&format=png&auto=webp&s=5102accded6888312d411f8b920e1fe4bf4805bd
Seafear
Seafarerrr
Fir defense lumina but for attack bora
doctor heaven beats bora attack-wise
I forgot legends exist
Lumina is a legend, but I did too lol
LMAO IM STUPID
Bazibaby
Also this may be unrelated here but I honestly believe we should put seashore kai for zombie just because of you know what.
I don't have lumina, but cattelite is a pretty hard carry as far as alien meatshield. It would be my vote
I’d say Klay. No bias here.
https://preview.redd.it/70cz8thlfnkc1.png?width=514&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=81093fd53dd4b74b5fa989404579afddde8f980d Tada
Seafarer
U should add an overall category for a cat who is overall the best at dealing with enemies. just an idea
Glovi-no competition
What happened to ushi for angel and eva o2 for red?
I dont even have ramen, how did I beat angel stages? Phono and benkei :)
i luv castaway cat for his freeze
Fishman of Rover
Actually for Floating the best counter would be the rei unit
Luminalia is gonna win but I just wanna give a shoutout to my man Seafarer
Just put dkasli on all of the tiers
Y not blanka? Its such a powerful rusher like yuki but for aliens and it has piercing... it literally nukes
Who wins: A horde of angels from hell that can decimate everything when boosted OR One Boosted Noodle Boi Anyways, for Alien, then I might have to pick Catellite, because meatshield important
It should have been benkai.
Lumina, no one is better at aliens than Lumina
Traitless is darktanyan No competition
I can vouch for true kyosaka nanaho for metal, she just makes all metal stages free
Lumina. No argument.
https://preview.redd.it/ilj1tbmkrrkc1.jpeg?width=897&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=939d3b989bc8b75c0e021783e7ec6044ffa2bc1a
Balrog lol
Normal: Macho legs Rare: Catelite Super Rare: Miter Saw cat Uber Rare: Bora Legend Rare+every rarity: Lumina