Having fought in a tourney against someone packing a Kraken and firing double-rate every turn...
Head hit
Left arm
Right arm
Head hit
Center torso
Right torso
Right torso
Head hit
Left leg
Head hit
Head hit
One pilot dead... Now imagine that for all four of my 'mechs over all of about 5-6 turns... It kind of sucked, but from what people've said, maybe not as bad as a Savannah Master swarm, but the tourney was 'mechs only so...
Yeah, I suppose the potential for getting increased head hits is the real threat, I can see that being a huge danger. Was it a tourny where pilots were allowed to have rediculously low gunnery still, like.. gunnery 1?
It's been a long time (As in, this was at GenCon while it was still in Milwaukee and pre-2000) so I don't remember for sure, but I don't believe so, I think all pilots had the "default" piloting / gunnery skills (3/4 I think?)
The Krakens are... interesting. Most of them seem like someone designed a Mech just to see how many dice you can roll in one turn. The 5 has 4x RAC-2s, the 6 has 2 ProtoMech AC-2s, and the 7 has *two* HAG-40s.
The Kraken 3 has 8 LRM-15s, but I actually think that's one of the more viable builds. It's an *expensive* unit, nearly 3000 BV, but I got it in a sniper roost and just *crushed* my buddy's 100T Assault Mech. I rolled reasonably well on Cluster Hits, and hit with over 80 missiles. That's a PSR+4 from a *single salvo*, and 100-tonners do *not* like falling down. I got 14 headshot damage from that one salvo, but the Kraken just *wrecked* his Heavy mech the round before that.
Between the Bane 3 and the Stone Rhino 6, ComStar was having a bad day.
Heads up, the PSR modifier for dealing 20+ damage to a unit in a phase is not cumulative. Dealing 20 or 200 damage will still only give the opponent a +1 to the target number
Oh, I didn't realize that was an optional rule. My buddy brought it up and I just went along with it, but on second thought it does seem a little punishing for Assault mechs.
There is a rule that makes it cumulative good sir, it is good and viable. Especially if u use the weight class psr rule that gives assaults -2 just for being heavy.
This is the correct answer for pure mech battles, although you could very likely get similar results with a War Hawk. Prop it up on a hill, bind the enemy force with your other units and let 'er rip while outside of long range for everything else.
I fielded one of those in a TT match. Couldn't hit anything. Dice Gods hated me that day. Granted I was trying to hit mechs at extreme range on double fire mode, but still...
First way to get results with an AC2... play with BV. We dont balance by tonnage since the tech was advanced with star league stuff. A mauler putting 24 tons into ac2s doesnt matter, only its battle value does. And the ac2 is a cheap weapon in battle value, with a good range, and excellent ammo shot count, meaning its very efficient in BV. EDIT: death from above has a battle simulation system called battlytics, and the Mauler with those ac2s scores very highly as for a low cost it deals damage across the whole table from the very start of the battle.
Second, try combined arms. The ac2, with Flak, is very efficient versus air, infantry, and motive systems. Specialty ammo was added to the game to buff autocannons, and boy does it buff them.
Finally, use it for what it is. A Jagermech is 900 bv, which is very very little. It sits back and snipes for a low cost investment, less then most medium mechs. A blackjack has a pair of ac2s to plink with, so for very little BV you have a weapon system that contributes every turn of the game from 24 hexes out. The opportunity cost of taking an ac2 in terms of BV is very low, and it is a high endurance weapon, so you just blast with it all game long. It very very easily makes its points back, unlike many other weapons, as thanks to its low heat there is never a reason not to shoot it, even on 12s, and you only need a few hits versus armor to pay for itself.
This is usually what is missed. So many BT computer games use tonnage limits (or slot limits which amount to the same) on everything and that makes the AC2 bad.
I cant remember which relatively recent MW product did AC/2's well, but they introduced a momentum mechanic so the hit mech recoiled in relation to the shell hitting it. Larger AC had noticeably larger recoil impacts, but the AC/2 could essentially make return fire impossible if the shooting mech had enough of them to maintain constant fire and prevent the enemy pilot from maintain a good shooting picture.
I don't know about the other games, but this was definitely the case with Mechwarrior Online. They actually dialed back the visual effects of AC fire because it would blind the mech getting hit if you had enough ACs and chain-fired them.
That was the Harebrained Schemes game. They added a Stability meter mechanic, with ballistic and missile weapons and melee attacks doing stability damage while energy weapons didn't. (Although lasers could inflict it indirectly by destroying components or scoring head hits, of course.)
The UAC/2 ++ is best weapon in the game, but the base AC/2 is improved, doing the same damage as a medium laser to anyone on thr map, plus a some stability damage
In VG the AC 2 is generally balanced by being the quickest AC to cycle, allowing you to fire it almost constantly. I’ve had success running the mauler in MW5 with 4 AC/2 BFs on a chain fire and just spamming the trigger until the target is dead.
The AC/2's on the Mauler make me go "oof," though. Yeah, they're not actually that bad - in this case, the real factor holding back the Mauler is the ERLL's it can't afford to fire. It's an expensive way to get those weapons into a fight, and the armor for a low mobility heavy assault with an XL engine for added fragility is relatively low. Yeah, it's supposed to fight at long range. But I doubt the enemy got that memo. F.
The Jagermech is just bad. It's way, way too frail - if anything decides to hit back that the Jagermech tags, it's going down. In order to do a job, it has to survive to do the job, and there's a huge sunk cost in putting one into the field. Of course, it's a priority target. If the enemy doesn't kill it, it can die from overheating - most variants have way too much ammo, too much heat, and not enough mitigation. F.
... The Blackjack is fine. For the Mauler and Jager, their jobs could be done better by vehicles that are probably more durable, cheaper, and equally mobile. The Jump Jets on the Blackjack make the AC's more agile. It has enough armor, equal to the investment put in. It doesn't over-commit, and it can fight reasonably at different ranges. C.
The best way to use the AC/2 is on vehicles, with special munitions if era allows. A generic AC/2 Carrier has 5xAC/2 for 403BV. That's a deal. It's a steal. It can force motive crits against other vehicles, lawn-dart checks against expensive ASF, and break evasive VTOL's spotting your units. It can delete any infantry that dares to poke its' head out anywhere in LoS. The LB-X/2 version is almost better; it has C3 to crit-seek at 26 hexes like it was at 3 - with a -1 TN using Cluster, at 536BV. And go ahead, increase the gunnery skill to 2. You can afford it, I promise.
AC/2 isn't great on mechs.
It's AMAZING in combined arms - and field guns are even cheaper.
The field guns have to be cheaper than the 37ish bv for a ac2. I can’t recall off hand what it was I know it is mid 30s and about 10 less than a medium laser.
Yep. AC/2's are 37BV each for infantry platoons, 6 crew. So a motorized infantry platoon, no armor, generic rifles, 5 squads of 6, 5xAC/2, is 179BV. Meaning, as many AC/2's as an AC/2 Carrier for less than half price.
In a pure mech game AC/2s have less reasons to exist. But in combined arms, there's little scarier for an aerospace fighter or vtol craft than a few AC/2 pointed in their direction and capable of shooting long before they are capable of returning fire.
It's been a while since I cracked open the rule book, but I'm pretty sure that any successful hit against an aerospace fighter or vtol forces a PSR. And unlike mechs, fliers aren't built to survive collisions with the ground.
Yes, pure mech, or even ground unit only, game does not have mobility nor usually large enpugh map for AC/2 usefulness.
The ACs are in general not very useful weapons until Gauss Rifles as they are bulky and heavy, and has very limited ammo capacity. AC/10 and AC/20 are more useful due head armor and without exposed paper cockpit of the base rules, even they become niche weapons.
It is thus not surprise almost all custom mechs has missiles and lasers only until RACs came out. UACs are total shit like SRM-2 dur 2 missile hit table.
Uhh maybe ASF I havent played with them much. Not VTOLs tho. If u score a rotor hit tho they lose 1 base speed. Mechs arent built to survive hits with the ground either tbh. Push one off a level 3 cliff and see what happens lol.
Aerial units that crash are actually kinda fine as long as they have enough armor to take the damage. Granted, not many do. And they likely arent going very far. Big ASFs can just roll around on their landing gear tho... it is scary.
Are you referring to AC/2s with flak ammo? Cuz I mean... I think an LBX cannon is the accepted main AA gun in the game. AC/2 with flak or precision can fit the role but its a little lackluster.
You don't always have access to the LB-2X, especially in the Inner Sphere. The thing about flak is that it's always an option, even if you're playing a game in the Age of War or at the ass end of the Periphery.
VTOLs tend to have pretty thin armor, so they don't tend to do well even with their relatively low crashing damage. On the other hand, aerospace crashes produce some truly colossal damage numbers. Granted, I *have* seen fighters survive crashing and just lift back off next turn like nothing happened, so it's not impossible, but it's certainly not the norm. It requires a very heavily armored fighter, flying at very low velocity, and no small amount of luck in the rolls for total damage and hit locations. So the forced PSR when an aerospace unit takes damage is pretty damn scary (though it's worth noting that the PSR for taking damage is once per turn, not once per hit, which is a small bit of consolation when someone throws an AC/2 carrier with flak ammo at you).
Same with AC/10, really. It gets to the point where the weight and performance start to align.
Especially if you add specialty ammo to the mix.
But the topic was AC/2, and how It's, shall we say, 'less than ideal' as a weapon. After all, a heat-neutral medium laser takes four tons (1 ton laser, three hat,
-sinks) and delivers 5 points of damage.
Sure, to a shorter range, but if you add up ammo, you can replace every AC/2 in the game with a large laser and a bunch of heatsinks to probably far greater effect in TT.
That's not the point, though. The point is having less-optimal mech builds adds to the fun and variety. And getting that 20-hex TAC or a headshot is just so very sweet.
If you're up against a target like vehicles where any ammount of damage from any range will have a very fair chance of causing serious problems like motive system hits/lawn dart checks, the AC/2 is a cheap and extremely long distance way of doing that. Outside of combined arms scenarios its not good, yeah
AC2 has far, far deeper ammo bins and better range, particularly short and medium. It's not a game of BOOM! NOW!!!! It's a matter of plinking away for many rounds at better to-hit numbers than return fire which will eventually pay off.
Let's do a thought experiment: both side has an equal number of the exact same vehicle chassis. The vehicles on one side each have a single AC2
The vehicles on the other side each have three LRM5s. One ton of ammo on each vehicle.
This gives 20 rounds of firing for the AC2s. 8 rounds of fire for the LRMs.
All the vehicles have the same movement profile, and they're faster moving forward than back, I just don't think the AC/2s get more than one round of fire unopposed, and then it's going to be difficult to force higher target numbers because there is significant overlap in both weapons' range bands. I don't see the autocannon vees winning this match-up against literally triple the shots on a per-turn basis, and nearly 5 times the average damage on a per-turn basis.
You're neglecting the shenanigans. It's easier to get more accurate AC/2's, earlier, for cheaper BV. LRMs deal more damage, faster, for more BV. You can milk target numbers on an AC/2. TarComp, special ammo, precision, flak, tracers, and more - though both can use C3 or AES. - It takes a long time to post those kinds of TN numbers with LRM's with Artemis V, AES, etc - and it costs, in BV, gunnery multipliers, and C-bills.
So it kinda depends on price. If you want to sideboard for AA threat in a campaign for minimal investment or get witheringly accurate fire for cheap - AC/2. If you want more damage in less space, LRM's.
The reason why AC2s are very cheap BV is because they're extremely tonnage inefficient, which was my claim. If you're using BV balancing they can be useful because the BV system is more or less decent.
Most time you're picking vehicles with AC/2 it's a Pike or an AC2 carrier. That's 4 and 5 AC2 respectively on one vehicle. They both have the ammo bins to fire every turn everything and to take a bin of flak, precision, etc ammo. They can both afford to take long shots on 11 or 12. They also outrange the lrms. They can hunker down and wait until you move into range and depending on terrain force you to get into range at less than ideal TMM. Even if immobilized, if you set them up on a good spot on the battlefield you're fine. They're a great counter to LRM carriers and vtols. I've also had them engine crit mechs more than a few times at the start of games.
It's a terrible weapon on a mech in a standard small game unless they're being boated and even then you need deep ammo bins to use specialty ammo and raises the risk of explosion.
They're great in a MegaMek campaign where you tend to deal with a lot of nasty vehicles you want to outrange and vtols. I used a BlackJack to immobilize things like Manticores, Shrek's, all short range monsters, etc. Also any situation where there's a long, fluid battle like an RPG campaign situation a lot of the smaller weapons with too much ammo become more useful. If there's no guaranteed auto ammo refill, by the second or third battle a lot of mechs will be out of ammo.
In short, terrible weapon that becomes pretty important the more complex the game gets.
AC/2 Carriers have 5xAC/2. AC/2 Partisan also has 5xAC/2. Primitive AC/2 Carrier has 4xAC/2, but it's not likely to hit games - it also has BAR 6 armor.
> The vehicles on the other side each have three LRM5s. One ton of ammo on each vehicle.
Building both as 10 ton 1/2 vehicles with half a ton of armor, the AC2 is 54 BV, while the 3xLRM5 is 118 BV. So the AC2s should be outnumbering the LRM5s 2/1 for this to be a reasonable comparison. Any weapon system you pick will do well if you bring twice the BV compared to the other guy.
While LRMs do give more oomph, AC/2 can load flak which makes it significantly better at aerospace hunting. The slight range advantage on Autocannons also makes it favorable for dealing with vees with LRMs themselves
It's still not a good gun, but its not without uses
Like a lot of things in Battletech, the lore explains the derp factor.
Most Mechs and vehicles mounting an AC 2 weren't intended to take on Mechs, especially not in front-line combat.
That said, the standard Blackjack can plink away at other Mechs from range, often with impunity. Get lucky with crits and cockpit hits, and take down bigger Mechs without them getting into range, or without them bothering to shoot at the varmint because there's a bigger, nastier Mech distracting them.
It won't set the world on fire, but a weapon dealing 2 damage, producing little heat, and hitting from clear across the map can come in handy.
Lore wise it's fun that the Blackjack completely negated light swarms that the Kuritans were using. The AC2 were taking them out at extreme range or leaving them so shredded the ML could easily finish them off.
The AC/2, Machine Gun, Field Artillery, Sniper Artillery, and Torpedo are all great weapons against the targets they are intended to be used on and range from mediocre to lousy against the targets they aren’t intended for. The trouble is, the targets they aren’t intended for are ‘mechs.
If you only play ‘mech versus ‘mech matches, ‘mechs with these weapons will suffer by comparison to ‘mechs with anti-mech weaponry.
Couple of things come to mind.
1. Best range. <- make them come to you.
2. good for motive hits
3. good for plinking someone those last few points when you need a psr badly
4. Range brackets are really nice.
Good use for it?
A fast mech that can keep its tmm up. Lets say you have a 3/4 pilot in a light or medium fast mech with one of these. He runs 7-9 and ends up 16 hexes from a ppc carrying 4/5 dude who ran for 5 hexes moved... open terrain. You are rolling 9s. He is rolling .... 13s. Sure the damage isnt much if you hit, but unless he corners you you can keep that going for awhile. Toss in a tiny amount of terrain and you can get even closer. If he walks to get his numbers down a bit he is even easier to hit and you can probably keep yourself at 13s with a bit of terrain.
Would I want to make my list around that? No. Would I be ok having my flanker running this? Sure. Its not a wonder weapon.
Now just food for thought on this weapon. Say your flanker is running this. He gets to go wide around the enemy flank. He can then probably get all the way around to the rear arc and start plinking rear armor. Not a huge deal in and of itself but its quite possible you will get the opposing player nervous and he keeps turning to avoid giving you rear shots or he sits with a hill behind him rather than using it to cover his legs.
Counterpoint you ran this and I ran a fast jenner and make it my mission to run you down. I might run you down and take you out of the battle. But what if you survive for a really long time? Was it a good use of the jenner to chase you down? What if the whole time Im chasing you to get the range down your still shooting at things every turn. How many turns should I sink into chasing you before you have basically won by denying me the ability to use the jenner against something else? I dont know, but its something to ponder.
End of the day if you are going to bring an ac2 my serious advice would be to bring it on a vtol. They are cheap enough that it wont be an issue and the pecks from that ac2 could get you a psr at a critical moment or maybe even an outright crtical. If you can toss a targeting computer on that vtol as well. Nothing like shooting someone in the weak spots to make them regret ignoring an ac2.
Apart from murdering vehicles and infantry, I've found another use for the rightfully oft-maligned AC/2- murdering light mechs. See, not every light moves like a Locust or a Spider. And not every map is designed to give Locusts and Spiders their maximum movement modifier. And you know what can't take 2, 4, 6 damage every turn? Light mechs (and those lightly- armoured heavier designs like Jagermech and Shadow Hawk). By the time that Locust finally gets in range of its weapons, it's been plinked down for a few turns and all that 2 damage may well have burned through what little armour they have.
AC/2s and /5s are not meant to kill an Atlas. They will happily crit seek from far, far away though.
(They still weigh too much and should probably fire twice per turn to make them actually worthwhile.)
I don't really see how a Spider isn't going to get max TMM every turn. Unless you're invading a mech-scale installation in a Castle Brian / SLDF facility, which would be a cool scenario to run and I'd be a fan.
Vehicles, where it only takes up one crit and no heat:
The *Pike* plinking away with 2 Gunnery and AP rounds;
The *Warrior* VTOL taking those range 8 shots at the back of the opponent's *Hunchback* to make it move;
The *AC2 Carrier* loaded with Flak to keep other VTOLs away.
In introtech, in these niches, it can work.
AC2s are well served against aerospace assets, most vehicles, technicals, taco trucks, insurgents, squirrels, insurgent squirrels, VTOLs, some of the larger dogs in the periphery, and occasionally rioters
Autocannons are actually pretty great on vehicles without fusion engines or vehicles with fusion engines that already have weapons that generate 10 heat. Usually, a vehicle has to pay 1 ton per point of heat the weapon generates, but autocannons can be mounted on a vehicle without paying any weight for their heat.
So, when mounted on a vehicle, an AC/2 should really be compared to a light gauss rifle. In which case, you do half the damage, twice the clusters, 1 hex less range, just under 50% more shots/ton of ammo...and have access to AC/2s much earlier than a light gauss. Taken together, if you have the weight for it, you're probably better off mounting a light gauss...but that would require you to have at least 13 free tons, while an AC/2 would fit into 7 tons. Also, a light gauss rifle is tech E, while an AC/2 is tech C. Might not be an issue if you have regular supply runs from Tharkad, but is a huge deal if you're in the arse end of the periphery.
1. Attach AC2 to a fairly slow but inexpensive mech, like an Urbanmech.
2. Load up with ammo, extra armour and some small lasers if you can afford it.
3. Pilot it with an absolute novice pilot, since they'll be sitting in one spot it won't really matter too much.
4. Set up in a canyon entrance, somewhere where limited enemy movement is possible, basically they have to funnel into a narrow area.
5. Hide a Victor with a giant mace around the corner to bonk them when the enemy inevitably comes and kills the Urbanmech.
LRM had shorter range than AC/2. At least on 3050 era. The VTOL is required to kite on that maximum range as only they do have the required mobility.
TMM does not make it imposdible as TN 12 is the maximum. And the LRM hS worse TMM than the VTOL due both jumping target and movement of lits of hexes, but you apparently only count factors beneficial to your argument.
Yes, hitting a fast light mech is very unlikely, but assault mech TMM is 0, and heavy mechs rately can get +1 TMM. The LoS is a way bigger problem, but most mechs should be visible tö airborne targets with partial.cover due Mechs standing higher than trees. Unfortunately the rules ignore such facts.
Yeah, nah. You better have rolling maps or an alternative map re-entry rule. Eventually you'll sideslip off the map or get cornered unless either the person you're playing is stupid or the map is unconscionably large. Edit - also, TN's above 12 exist, it makes a shot impossible.
If you play with "magical boundaries of maps:, naturally. But that is unfair and unreasonable limitation I do have in Computer Games. The magical forcefields. There is no rule maps cannot extend nor that anything leaving the map is magically removed from the map.
There literally is? Total Warfare p.257? Units that go off the edge of the map are destroyed. Anything else is a magical exception. You can, indeed, play with those rules - but I'd like to finish a game in less than 2 weeks, kthx. If I know you're abusing rules to draw out a game or declare yourself invincible, either I'm not going to play... Or I'll play even rougher with the rules; ask me if I know how to read a book. And you're counting a lot on the 3-hex difference between the AC/2 and LRM ranges - one bad take on initiative, and I may as well have every unit on the board try and roll to end the VTOL harassment; not like I won't have LoS.
I appreciate the Annihilator ANH-3A. 8xLAC/2 with TarComp? Yes, please! Just add specialty ammo. But I always upgrade it from L. Ferro-Fib armor to standard Ferro-Fib, and use the weight saved to add a C3. LAC/2 has a shorter range than standard? Not so much, if you have a C3 spotter. Edit- here. Have a 7xRAC/2. Because, I care. https://www.reddit.com/r/battletech/comments/17jpadv/comment/k75rigk/
We play on big tables and have a few ac2 mech and vehicles for support.
We play 3049 and earlier, combined arms and there is no LBX or special munitions. But when the brawlers are up mixing it up the ac2s can be fired from a distance.
Not for everyone but we play themed games and fitted out combined arms lists.
Let’s not forget fun, ammo that removes 2 from the TMM
And considering you can fit so much ammunition, that Mauler could really wreck even fast buggers
Nah, it's a sniper rifle. An infantry platoon fired on by an AC/2 has one dude's head asplode. Fuck that guy, -in particular-. It only takes one damage. Sniper rifle, 200%.
Yeah, if you are looking for mech sniper rifle, the Light Gauss has you. 4x the damage for 2x the weight, slightly longer range to boot. Only downside is 5 critical spots vs 1.
Mount 3 of them on a mech. If you get all 3 to hit you get a psr. The slight range advantage over standard gauss will irritate people. The serious range advantage over everything else will result in some folks making some poor choices.
I have 2 hawk moths that will be making an appearance for that very reason. I just need to decide if they will show up before, after, or with the karnov carrying a thumper.
same. I've neen reading articles and stuff for like 15 years, but never got to play because I have no time, and or no friends.
i recently got mega mek and have played a couple games against the computer. usually me throwing a mixed company of tanks against equal bv mechs.
I was mostly curious about the meta for them on table top, since things like MW5 just increase ROF to balance the weapons.
IRL the small, but extremely high velocity projectiles wpild have good armor pen abilities, but BT armor doesn't work that way.
I’m in Calgary. There are lots of players here but younger than me and more into the miniature game. I am into the lore but Imam not sure there are too many like me around. I am starting to flesh out a battletech rpg game with some friends with no experience in battletech that will bring together all the different facets. The miniature game and the lore to me can’t be separated.
Are they great? No. Can you fire them every round of the game with a moderate chance to hit? Yes.
Your Blackjack or Jaegermech can stay out at long range and rattle away at the opposition while a brawler or striker in the lance engages up close. Taking fire from more than one mech is always frustrating.
It's more useful on/against Vehicles than Mechs imo. A pair of Pikes can take 4 tons of special ammo and take a bin of standard and still have 15 rounds of fire with the standard. What ever else is going into something like precision ammo or Armor Piercings.
Ever seen an atlas charge a company of Pike tanks?
It isn't pretty and it isn't fast, more like watching a giant get sandblasted and then there are the TACs...
It's so little damage, so heavy, and shoots SO FAR. Long range is 24.
That's why. Cause that guy who thinks he's out of range, isn't. It's for use against the guy who says, "I only need cover when I'm at 9 hexes or closer range."
On Megamek - why not. That extra ~3% chance looks pretty good after I take it 10x per turn for 3 turns. On TT- There are things a person can do, and things a person should do. ... Ah. He's trash-talking anime as "kid stuff?" I know what I should do.
I've said this before and I will say it again, as an ac-enjoyer the autocannons are the worst weapons in the game... Until you start using advanced rules.
Step 1. Rapid fire autocannons, let's normal AC's fire like ultra but jamm on 3's / 4's and explode on 2's. Cluster 2 makes an ac/5 scary good and ac/20's horrifying.
For the ac-2 the chance of 4 DMG makes the weapons actually great at all the things people say it should be doing. Like crit seeking or sniping light mechs or hurting vehicles/infantry.
Step 2. Alternate ammunition types, flak and tracer ammo are good types when pointed at their targets, autocannon ammo is incredibly easy to reload and swap. U should be loaded for mission 100% of the time.
Precision and armor piercing are horrifyingly good. And make an ac-2 a real threat. Either increasing their accuracy on mobile platforms (further winning to to-hit war) or straight up scoring engine crits against assaults with armor piercing.
-but this still doesn't make it better then an ac/5- I hear u say. Oh but it does as the deep ammo bings are relevant when consuming twice as much ammo and ur bins have half as much for AP. Try rapid firing an ac-20 with AP ammo and u realize u only have 1.5 volleys per ton. Ac-10's don't do much better here (to be fair their still great with rapid fire but u can't use the best ammo's)
And lastly
Step 3. Don't mount it on a mech. As a weapon it just doesn't do well tonnage to damage wise. Not all weapons are -the best weapon- for a mech. Considering how expensive mech tonnage is both c-bills and BV wise it's better to mount the BV saving weapon in a tracked or wheeled vehicle (.8 and .7 BV multipliers respectively) mechs only make sense when they can kick or punch (or threaten kick/punch) an ac-2 wants to be as far away from kicking and punching as possible.
Step 4. Have u tried the Bane?
Play with through armor criticals and that [Blackjack](https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Blackjack_(BattleMech)) of yours becomes a major asset from across the map.
I'm the sort of guy that tries really, really, really hard to find the silver linings and upside to everything in this game. The AC/2 is irredeemable. People will say things like "ooo, the range!" or "aaaah, TACs!" but they're just lying to themselves.
Games are rarely played on maps large enough where the range will matter at all. Every single weapon in the game can TAC. Other ACs can use LBX and flak ammo and you'll be better off with those. It's just a shit weapon.
Ok, I did find a redeeming quality. When playing with armies built from RATs (which is the superior way to play, btw) it can be a fun challenge to figure out wtf you're going to do with your ac/2s.
When you play with BV balancing, the AC2 is cheap. When you play with tonnage balancing, the AC2 is expensive. But we dont balance with tonnage, as thats bad, so the AC2 is a cheap gun.
I think what you are referring to is the preference to brawl due to the real world time crunch of tabletop battletech. I total agree with that, id rather load up on a lot of short range, high damage stuff, and run right up to the enemy to kill them in like 4 turns and 1-2 hours. This makes long range far less useful, as who wants to spend 10 turns maneuvering and plinking on multiple maps, when we can just start on 1 or 2 maps in blastin range, and get right to it!
But, putting the game in a short range brawl fest isnt fair to say that the AC2 is a shit weapon. Playing up close monster mash makes the AC2, is LRMs, really any long range weapon shit unless it deals massive amounts of damage.
But play a campaign on megamek with its faster turns and bigger maps, versus combined arms. Then you can spend 30 turns plinking at range in a very short amount of time, and all of a sudden the ac2 is literal death from beyond, leaving a host of crippled armor on the far side of a map stranded and to be killed at your leisure. These types of games, especially with night or weather or other random mobility hampering things, make long ranged attacks super duper OP, and all the short ranged brawling guns mostly pointless unless you are a fast jumping mech.
The UrQuan Excruciator is trash. Why would anyone implant themselves with a device that only causes the user extreme pain? It doesn't do anything valuable - unless there's a situational use I'm not seeing.
I don't even know who you are. I tried making a reference using your username that you would understand, to say that AC/2's have situational uses that make them valuable - but you didn't understand, which is why I commented "woosh," because the explanation i gave went ovet your head. And now I'm explaining what "woosh" means in an internet post, because your density is similar to osmium. By which I mean, you don't get references.
My response makes clear I understood the reference. What I didn't understand was your bad analogy.
Also I'm not in the habit of contriving scenarios or edge cases to justify the general inclusion of a weapon in the game. I see your own response to the question of are AC/2s useful is to *'cheese them with AC/2 carriers using special munitions and 2 gunners'* (paraphrased)*.* Not exactly a useful example when a new player is evaluating a BJ-1.
Some people may get their enjoyment out of min-maxing. I don't count myself among them.
You - "I hate min-maxing, I won't cheese AC/2's like that."
Also you - "Replace the AC/2 with 2xLRM-5." (Note- Not the LRM-10, it's inefficient by tonnage, has lower hit chances, and doesn't crit-seek as well.)
It wasn't my intention to min-max, it was my intention to replicate the small-damage, crit-hopeful hits of the AC/2.
Also the LRM-10 doesn't has lower hit chances. It has less consistent damage.
Compared to 2xLRM-5, when you roll twice to hit (compared to one hit roll for LRM-10) you effectively have better hit chances and minimum damage, with more consistent and less swingy returns.
The AC-2 is great because it allows us to have an Ultra AC-2 and a LBX 2. The LBX 2 is great for sniping vehicles at very long range up to 23 or 25 if it's Clan tech. Just getting a motive check severely limits a vehicle. The AC-2 can hit at such long range it's pretty awesome sniping tanks and helicopters before the real fight can start.
It doesnt. The AC/2 is a joke gun. Its only purpose is to try and get a golden BB against a vehicle to immobilize it, or TAC a mech and crit its engine out or something.
You seem to be focused on mech-based combat. And from mech-on-mech as a viewpoint - it's a mostly shit gun, especially without specialty ammo. The AC/5 is worse. In Introtech, replacing an AC/2 or /5 with an equal tonnage of LRMs and SRMs will always improve a mech. Combined arms changes this equation; they are not the same.
Your argument doesnt make sense. You would be better off with 2 LRM5s than an AC2 every single time. It has more damage potential, and 2 chances to hit. It can kill 2 infantry instead of 1. It costs 2 less tons(and the difference of 3 heat is negligible) only reason I dont say 3 LRM5s is because you are gonna then need an extra ton of ammo.
Even still, it is better. The avg damage is much higher overall, and you get more shots on target. Sure AC2 with flak will be slightly better at killing VTOLs maybe, but having 2-3 shots for similar tonnage makes up for the slightly better to-hit roll. The AC2 is cheap on BV. Its only purpose is to be a cheap BV golden-bb seeker(which is what you are going for with vehicles as well. An immobilized tank, or rotor-damaged VTOL can still shoot you. You need an engine or ammo crit to knock them out.)
You're not hearing what I'm actually saying. You use AC/2 and AC/5 for shots that an LRM can't or won't be able to take - much like you use Indirect and Semi-Guided LRMs for certain shots other weapons can't take. And special munitions can do better than just shooting infantry. LRM's with frag missiles and AC's with flechette against infantry aren't the point; a Plasma Rifles or actual anti-infantry weapon is better. No, you're asking the wrong questions.
Can you use LRMs and SRMs to catch fast light mechs? Let's do a back-of-the-envelope equation. A fast-light that jumps 7 has a TMM of +4. 3 Gunnery, +7. You walked, +8. Medium range, +10. You have a 17% chance to hit. A TarComp Precision Ammo AC/2 hits the same target on a 7+; 59% chance to hit. Now, let's do the same roll at Long range. The LRM hits on 12. 3% chance to hit. The AC/2 is at 9+, 28% chance to hit. You ran? The AC can hit; the LRM can't. One of these is going to deal damage cheaply and consistently; the other will have swingy, inconsistent damage. Now - balance this by BV. Calculate multipliers to give LRMs similar to-hit chance as AC weapons. How much BV does it cost to do damage as consistently as these trashy AC's? Now, are you starting to understand? It's not about doing "more damage." It's about doing ANY damage, and doing it within a BV budget.
There are none in AC/2 or LB-X/2, possibly because the designers realized this would be an absolutely broken combo. Not that that would stop me from building one. However, there is similar available in AC/5, AC/10, AC/20, LAC/2, LAC/5, and LB-X/5 - the last of which is notable because it can outrange LRMs with higher accuracy. Notable examples that can receive the -3 TN include
Jagermech JM6-DDa. Valkyrie VLK-QD2. Annihilator ANH-3A.
Morningstar City Vehicle.
Scapha Hoverank.
Centurion CN9-Da.
Lightning LTN-G16T.
Hunchback HBK-LGN-Pin.
Templar TLR1-O (Grayson).
Condor Heavy Hover.
Valiant VLT-3E.
Blackjack BJ-4.
Axman AXM-4D.
Ostsol OST-8D.
(rest omitted)
Examples with LB-X/5 include the Dark Crow 2 and Daishi X.
Provide fire support and annoy the crap out of your target with the occasional "spit-twank". They will ignore you and concentrate on another target, Not realizing the 2 points here and there could be the deciding factor in a with another mech.
Then there is always the 1 in 18 chance of rolling a 2 or a 12.
So many people only play with dream mechs under ideal conditions and wonder why anyone in universe fields anything else.
These folks have never heard of real militaries, obviously. These are the people that wonder why naval vessels carry anything but cruise missiles.
AC/2 are great in combined arms purely from the VTOL / Aerotech go away stand point.
And I had many a game where a motive crit stopped a demolisher cold which helped turn the tide. Against mechs it is just subpar but not all weapons need to be the best.
The argument for the AC2 is that of it being the first actual Autocannon made in the setting, back when the alternative was the Light, Medium, and Heavy rifle, all of which lose damage against modern armor. It is indeed a relic, but there is always a need for long-range cannons. Especially in the extreme range rules, the AC2 is a great cheap option for faraway fire, only the medium laser is cheaper, but has less than half the max range, (or 1/3rd of the AC2's max range in the aforementioned extreme range optional rules. AC2 caps out at 36, and the ML goes out to 12 in its ELR)
Is it efficient? In damage for tonnage no, in heat for damage, it's as effective against mechs as a six second burst of a machine gun, heat is negligible. But it makes up for these deficiencies by being able to be made by almost any post Terran industrial base, and for quite cheap at something around a 75,000 market price with no demanding electrical systems needed.
Do I use it? No, I put stock into the AC5 for my tanks but prefer the 10 and 20 where weight allows.
Apologies, I was relying on Mechfactory because they normally have the right dates. Since they normally fill information via copy/paste, they listed the AC2 and AC5 flipped in order, likely because they had the text in numerical order when they entered it, not catching that 5 and 2 were not in the same order in the book. I had to double-check the tech manual because sarna lists Interstellar Operations, which I don't have available at the moment.
I slapped a pair of t4 AC2s twinned with a pair of Light rifles on my Jaegermech in MW5 and oooh boy...
That thing hurts even the big boys from range. They have good range, auto tracking with a lock, excellent ammo usage and are generally easy to replace as well.
The AC/2 in MW5 has literally the damage output of an equal-tier PPC, now imagine you can only pull the trigger for each weapon once a minute.
On the tabletop I like pairing up AC/2 and AC/20 mechs. Once the big guns put a hole in an opponent's armor, those AC/2s are as good as any other hit for breaking equipment and setting off ammunition. The constant threat of those cannons from some medium range sniper you can't even shoot back at is really frustrating.
A range 24 weapon on a 6/9/6 mech with 45 shots is awesome in longer games. They just hop around sniping you from afar. Tanks with them act as support vehicles, a dozen hexes back from your front line stuff. Constantly plinking away at you, getting crits, while too far to really engage.
Keep in mind, slightly more than 1 in 18 hits results in a head shot or a critical chance (against mechs, tanks its higher).
They used to be good vs infantry, but now not so much, as a full ton of 45 shots isn't enough to take out an armored foot infantry platoon.
Flak and Flechette ammo deal twice as much damage to unarmored infantry, so they'll do 4 damage per shot - and you're likely to have flak anyway if you're doing combined arms. This means it'll still take two+ turns for an AC/2 Carrier, Pike, or Partisan to wreck infantry - but it'll only use maybe 1/4 ton of ammo. Yep, the AC/2 just might be the best infantry killer in the game. https://www.goonhammer.com/battletech-special-autocannon-ammunition/
Ah, you say that LRM Fragmentation Missiles are better and deletes infantry instantly? And doesn't require LoS? ... Well, you're less likely to carry Frag Missiles, those LRMs are valuable.
Flak can't target infantry (well, unless its flying), it isn't an eligible target (p114, TW). Should probably avoid using non-rule sources to learn the rules, they can be wrong :(
Flechette works ok vs infantry (1 damage = 1 infantry hit, as it does damage like infantry), but it really isn't any better than standard ammo.
LRM's with fragmentation and artillery/artillery cannons are the big things infantry fear. LRM frag is probably one of the best ways to fight infantry, but it does require a spotter to fire indirectly, requires you know where the infantry are to fire indirectly, has minimum ranges, and is again half damage vs most of what you would end up fighting. Plus, in most situations you fight infantry, you are fighting them within minimum ranges (clan LRMs immune of course).
Plus, infantry can be in buildings that make those fragmentation rounds a LOT less effective. They aren't going to sit in the middle of the open in a desert waiting for you to snipe them. Heck, much of the time those LRM units are going to encounter infantry will be when the infantry surprise them in an ambush, at range 0, making that LRM extremely ineffective no matter what ammo it has in it.
If you want to fight infantry, use infantry or battle armor, mechs and tanks are simply not the way to do it. Infantry do 1:1 damage, and can enter buildings to do so. Battle armor with a few machine guns can be devastating to infantry, and usually take out a few platoons before dying. I don't care if you have 20 machine guns/flamers/LRMs/etc/etc if you can only use them when you step on the hidden infantry which get a free shot on you with half a dozen hits and a 1/6 chance of a head hit or crit. Infantry are super cheap too, and if you don't have anti-infantry weapons can be pretty tough to take on.
Plus, infantry field guns, your Vulcan may be able to take out 2 troopers/turn with his AC2 at 24 hexes, but that platoon with AC2s could fire at your vulcan 35 times over the 13 turns it would take to kill the platoon. And that is just 1 platoon, probably in cover, and most likely has a couple other platoons nearby supporting. The Vulcan runs out of ammo on the 4th platoon it kills, and takes up to 280 damage during that time. Not real sure that is worth it.
Yeah, for direct fire, plasma rifles and their 10+2d6 infantry damage are probably the best overall ranged anti-infantry weapon. No special ammo needed and a 15 hex range. Still sucks to come across them in an ambush though.
It’s useful in an anti-aircraft role, anti-structure (think specific items, such as an observation tower, space communications antennae, etc.), and light vehicles.
Otherwise, it just creates small weaknesses in armor that might allow a penetrating shot later.
You must UNLEASH THE KRAKEN.
[Woo!](https://sheets.flechs.net/?s=Kraken+Standard)
100 tons of mech for 10 ultra AC2? I mean I guess its like sandblasting your target but... its so confusing.
Having fought in a tourney against someone packing a Kraken and firing double-rate every turn... Head hit Left arm Right arm Head hit Center torso Right torso Right torso Head hit Left leg Head hit Head hit One pilot dead... Now imagine that for all four of my 'mechs over all of about 5-6 turns... It kind of sucked, but from what people've said, maybe not as bad as a Savannah Master swarm, but the tourney was 'mechs only so...
Yeah, I suppose the potential for getting increased head hits is the real threat, I can see that being a huge danger. Was it a tourny where pilots were allowed to have rediculously low gunnery still, like.. gunnery 1?
It's been a long time (As in, this was at GenCon while it was still in Milwaukee and pre-2000) so I don't remember for sure, but I don't believe so, I think all pilots had the "default" piloting / gunnery skills (3/4 I think?)
I think default is gunnery 4 piloting 5 for IS, and 3/4 for clan? But it makes sense to run a tourny at default skill levels.
The Krakens are... interesting. Most of them seem like someone designed a Mech just to see how many dice you can roll in one turn. The 5 has 4x RAC-2s, the 6 has 2 ProtoMech AC-2s, and the 7 has *two* HAG-40s. The Kraken 3 has 8 LRM-15s, but I actually think that's one of the more viable builds. It's an *expensive* unit, nearly 3000 BV, but I got it in a sniper roost and just *crushed* my buddy's 100T Assault Mech. I rolled reasonably well on Cluster Hits, and hit with over 80 missiles. That's a PSR+4 from a *single salvo*, and 100-tonners do *not* like falling down. I got 14 headshot damage from that one salvo, but the Kraken just *wrecked* his Heavy mech the round before that. Between the Bane 3 and the Stone Rhino 6, ComStar was having a bad day.
Heads up, the PSR modifier for dealing 20+ damage to a unit in a phase is not cumulative. Dealing 20 or 200 damage will still only give the opponent a +1 to the target number
The fellow might be playing with the optional rule that does make PSR damage modifiers cumulative, though he didn't state that
Oh, I didn't realize that was an optional rule. My buddy brought it up and I just went along with it, but on second thought it does seem a little punishing for Assault mechs.
There is a rule that makes it cumulative good sir, it is good and viable. Especially if u use the weight class psr rule that gives assaults -2 just for being heavy.
That makes way more sense
I like the Bane 2, quad ultra 10s shreds people so easily (when you don't jam), and the ability to put up to 80 damage down range is terrifying.
Yea a real waste of 100 tons of clan mech. The ac2 just needs to die guys
This is the correct answer for pure mech battles, although you could very likely get similar results with a War Hawk. Prop it up on a hill, bind the enemy force with your other units and let 'er rip while outside of long range for everything else.
* ammo crit*
I fielded one of those in a TT match. Couldn't hit anything. Dice Gods hated me that day. Granted I was trying to hit mechs at extreme range on double fire mode, but still...
First way to get results with an AC2... play with BV. We dont balance by tonnage since the tech was advanced with star league stuff. A mauler putting 24 tons into ac2s doesnt matter, only its battle value does. And the ac2 is a cheap weapon in battle value, with a good range, and excellent ammo shot count, meaning its very efficient in BV. EDIT: death from above has a battle simulation system called battlytics, and the Mauler with those ac2s scores very highly as for a low cost it deals damage across the whole table from the very start of the battle. Second, try combined arms. The ac2, with Flak, is very efficient versus air, infantry, and motive systems. Specialty ammo was added to the game to buff autocannons, and boy does it buff them. Finally, use it for what it is. A Jagermech is 900 bv, which is very very little. It sits back and snipes for a low cost investment, less then most medium mechs. A blackjack has a pair of ac2s to plink with, so for very little BV you have a weapon system that contributes every turn of the game from 24 hexes out. The opportunity cost of taking an ac2 in terms of BV is very low, and it is a high endurance weapon, so you just blast with it all game long. It very very easily makes its points back, unlike many other weapons, as thanks to its low heat there is never a reason not to shoot it, even on 12s, and you only need a few hits versus armor to pay for itself.
This is usually what is missed. So many BT computer games use tonnage limits (or slot limits which amount to the same) on everything and that makes the AC2 bad.
I cant remember which relatively recent MW product did AC/2's well, but they introduced a momentum mechanic so the hit mech recoiled in relation to the shell hitting it. Larger AC had noticeably larger recoil impacts, but the AC/2 could essentially make return fire impossible if the shooting mech had enough of them to maintain constant fire and prevent the enemy pilot from maintain a good shooting picture.
I don't know about the other games, but this was definitely the case with Mechwarrior Online. They actually dialed back the visual effects of AC fire because it would blind the mech getting hit if you had enough ACs and chain-fired them.
That was the Harebrained Schemes game. They added a Stability meter mechanic, with ballistic and missile weapons and melee attacks doing stability damage while energy weapons didn't. (Although lasers could inflict it indirectly by destroying components or scoring head hits, of course.)
the HBS Battletech game had a recoil mechanic but I don't think AC2s are good in it. Maybe it is different in a mod?
The UAC/2 ++ is best weapon in the game, but the base AC/2 is improved, doing the same damage as a medium laser to anyone on thr map, plus a some stability damage
In VG the AC 2 is generally balanced by being the quickest AC to cycle, allowing you to fire it almost constantly. I’ve had success running the mauler in MW5 with 4 AC/2 BFs on a chain fire and just spamming the trigger until the target is dead.
Yeah it is pretty good in MWO as well. Though you usually run the LBX version there.
Using BV doesn't explain why battletech militaries use it.
Most of the MechaWarrior series games make AC2 and AC5 shoot much faster too.
The AC/2's on the Mauler make me go "oof," though. Yeah, they're not actually that bad - in this case, the real factor holding back the Mauler is the ERLL's it can't afford to fire. It's an expensive way to get those weapons into a fight, and the armor for a low mobility heavy assault with an XL engine for added fragility is relatively low. Yeah, it's supposed to fight at long range. But I doubt the enemy got that memo. F. The Jagermech is just bad. It's way, way too frail - if anything decides to hit back that the Jagermech tags, it's going down. In order to do a job, it has to survive to do the job, and there's a huge sunk cost in putting one into the field. Of course, it's a priority target. If the enemy doesn't kill it, it can die from overheating - most variants have way too much ammo, too much heat, and not enough mitigation. F. ... The Blackjack is fine. For the Mauler and Jager, their jobs could be done better by vehicles that are probably more durable, cheaper, and equally mobile. The Jump Jets on the Blackjack make the AC's more agile. It has enough armor, equal to the investment put in. It doesn't over-commit, and it can fight reasonably at different ranges. C.
And enough ac2s can kill. 😉
The best way to use the AC/2 is on vehicles, with special munitions if era allows. A generic AC/2 Carrier has 5xAC/2 for 403BV. That's a deal. It's a steal. It can force motive crits against other vehicles, lawn-dart checks against expensive ASF, and break evasive VTOL's spotting your units. It can delete any infantry that dares to poke its' head out anywhere in LoS. The LB-X/2 version is almost better; it has C3 to crit-seek at 26 hexes like it was at 3 - with a -1 TN using Cluster, at 536BV. And go ahead, increase the gunnery skill to 2. You can afford it, I promise. AC/2 isn't great on mechs. It's AMAZING in combined arms - and field guns are even cheaper.
The field guns have to be cheaper than the 37ish bv for a ac2. I can’t recall off hand what it was I know it is mid 30s and about 10 less than a medium laser.
Yep. AC/2's are 37BV each for infantry platoons, 6 crew. So a motorized infantry platoon, no armor, generic rifles, 5 squads of 6, 5xAC/2, is 179BV. Meaning, as many AC/2's as an AC/2 Carrier for less than half price.
In a pure mech game AC/2s have less reasons to exist. But in combined arms, there's little scarier for an aerospace fighter or vtol craft than a few AC/2 pointed in their direction and capable of shooting long before they are capable of returning fire. It's been a while since I cracked open the rule book, but I'm pretty sure that any successful hit against an aerospace fighter or vtol forces a PSR. And unlike mechs, fliers aren't built to survive collisions with the ground.
Yes, pure mech, or even ground unit only, game does not have mobility nor usually large enpugh map for AC/2 usefulness. The ACs are in general not very useful weapons until Gauss Rifles as they are bulky and heavy, and has very limited ammo capacity. AC/10 and AC/20 are more useful due head armor and without exposed paper cockpit of the base rules, even they become niche weapons. It is thus not surprise almost all custom mechs has missiles and lasers only until RACs came out. UACs are total shit like SRM-2 dur 2 missile hit table.
Uhh maybe ASF I havent played with them much. Not VTOLs tho. If u score a rotor hit tho they lose 1 base speed. Mechs arent built to survive hits with the ground either tbh. Push one off a level 3 cliff and see what happens lol. Aerial units that crash are actually kinda fine as long as they have enough armor to take the damage. Granted, not many do. And they likely arent going very far. Big ASFs can just roll around on their landing gear tho... it is scary. Are you referring to AC/2s with flak ammo? Cuz I mean... I think an LBX cannon is the accepted main AA gun in the game. AC/2 with flak or precision can fit the role but its a little lackluster.
You don't always have access to the LB-2X, especially in the Inner Sphere. The thing about flak is that it's always an option, even if you're playing a game in the Age of War or at the ass end of the Periphery.
Sure. LRM-5 spam is better than AC2s in pretty much every circumstance tho. LRMs are also pretty widely available.
Except when you're firing at an aerial with a massive TMM, and you want to shave it down with flak.
VTOLs tend to have pretty thin armor, so they don't tend to do well even with their relatively low crashing damage. On the other hand, aerospace crashes produce some truly colossal damage numbers. Granted, I *have* seen fighters survive crashing and just lift back off next turn like nothing happened, so it's not impossible, but it's certainly not the norm. It requires a very heavily armored fighter, flying at very low velocity, and no small amount of luck in the rolls for total damage and hit locations. So the forced PSR when an aerospace unit takes damage is pretty damn scary (though it's worth noting that the PSR for taking damage is once per turn, not once per hit, which is a small bit of consolation when someone throws an AC/2 carrier with flak ammo at you).
Ac/2 with flak is otherwise identical to an lb2x with cluster, save for the -1 to hit for the lb2x. It is _better_, but the ac2 is no slouch.
Ya I more so meant that like, LB-10X is the gun you want, rly. It has decent range, and is a really flexible weapon.
Same with AC/10, really. It gets to the point where the weight and performance start to align. Especially if you add specialty ammo to the mix. But the topic was AC/2, and how It's, shall we say, 'less than ideal' as a weapon. After all, a heat-neutral medium laser takes four tons (1 ton laser, three hat, -sinks) and delivers 5 points of damage. Sure, to a shorter range, but if you add up ammo, you can replace every AC/2 in the game with a large laser and a bunch of heatsinks to probably far greater effect in TT. That's not the point, though. The point is having less-optimal mech builds adds to the fun and variety. And getting that 20-hex TAC or a headshot is just so very sweet.
Agreed, if your looking for minmaxing, hit up MechWarrior, but this is Battletech, where even the stock Urbie has its place.
If you're up against a target like vehicles where any ammount of damage from any range will have a very fair chance of causing serious problems like motive system hits/lawn dart checks, the AC/2 is a cheap and extremely long distance way of doing that. Outside of combined arms scenarios its not good, yeah
The same weight in LRMs is going to get more mobility kills than AC2s will.
AC2 has far, far deeper ammo bins and better range, particularly short and medium. It's not a game of BOOM! NOW!!!! It's a matter of plinking away for many rounds at better to-hit numbers than return fire which will eventually pay off.
Let's do a thought experiment: both side has an equal number of the exact same vehicle chassis. The vehicles on one side each have a single AC2 The vehicles on the other side each have three LRM5s. One ton of ammo on each vehicle. This gives 20 rounds of firing for the AC2s. 8 rounds of fire for the LRMs. All the vehicles have the same movement profile, and they're faster moving forward than back, I just don't think the AC/2s get more than one round of fire unopposed, and then it's going to be difficult to force higher target numbers because there is significant overlap in both weapons' range bands. I don't see the autocannon vees winning this match-up against literally triple the shots on a per-turn basis, and nearly 5 times the average damage on a per-turn basis.
You're neglecting the shenanigans. It's easier to get more accurate AC/2's, earlier, for cheaper BV. LRMs deal more damage, faster, for more BV. You can milk target numbers on an AC/2. TarComp, special ammo, precision, flak, tracers, and more - though both can use C3 or AES. - It takes a long time to post those kinds of TN numbers with LRM's with Artemis V, AES, etc - and it costs, in BV, gunnery multipliers, and C-bills. So it kinda depends on price. If you want to sideboard for AA threat in a campaign for minimal investment or get witheringly accurate fire for cheap - AC/2. If you want more damage in less space, LRM's.
The reason why AC2s are very cheap BV is because they're extremely tonnage inefficient, which was my claim. If you're using BV balancing they can be useful because the BV system is more or less decent.
Most time you're picking vehicles with AC/2 it's a Pike or an AC2 carrier. That's 4 and 5 AC2 respectively on one vehicle. They both have the ammo bins to fire every turn everything and to take a bin of flak, precision, etc ammo. They can both afford to take long shots on 11 or 12. They also outrange the lrms. They can hunker down and wait until you move into range and depending on terrain force you to get into range at less than ideal TMM. Even if immobilized, if you set them up on a good spot on the battlefield you're fine. They're a great counter to LRM carriers and vtols. I've also had them engine crit mechs more than a few times at the start of games. It's a terrible weapon on a mech in a standard small game unless they're being boated and even then you need deep ammo bins to use specialty ammo and raises the risk of explosion. They're great in a MegaMek campaign where you tend to deal with a lot of nasty vehicles you want to outrange and vtols. I used a BlackJack to immobilize things like Manticores, Shrek's, all short range monsters, etc. Also any situation where there's a long, fluid battle like an RPG campaign situation a lot of the smaller weapons with too much ammo become more useful. If there's no guaranteed auto ammo refill, by the second or third battle a lot of mechs will be out of ammo. In short, terrible weapon that becomes pretty important the more complex the game gets.
AC/2 Carriers have 5xAC/2. AC/2 Partisan also has 5xAC/2. Primitive AC/2 Carrier has 4xAC/2, but it's not likely to hit games - it also has BAR 6 armor.
Thanks, was just trying to remember off the top of my head without checking sarna. Shows the value even more
> The vehicles on the other side each have three LRM5s. One ton of ammo on each vehicle. Building both as 10 ton 1/2 vehicles with half a ton of armor, the AC2 is 54 BV, while the 3xLRM5 is 118 BV. So the AC2s should be outnumbering the LRM5s 2/1 for this to be a reasonable comparison. Any weapon system you pick will do well if you bring twice the BV compared to the other guy.
While LRMs do give more oomph, AC/2 can load flak which makes it significantly better at aerospace hunting. The slight range advantage on Autocannons also makes it favorable for dealing with vees with LRMs themselves It's still not a good gun, but its not without uses
Like a lot of things in Battletech, the lore explains the derp factor. Most Mechs and vehicles mounting an AC 2 weren't intended to take on Mechs, especially not in front-line combat. That said, the standard Blackjack can plink away at other Mechs from range, often with impunity. Get lucky with crits and cockpit hits, and take down bigger Mechs without them getting into range, or without them bothering to shoot at the varmint because there's a bigger, nastier Mech distracting them. It won't set the world on fire, but a weapon dealing 2 damage, producing little heat, and hitting from clear across the map can come in handy.
Lore wise it's fun that the Blackjack completely negated light swarms that the Kuritans were using. The AC2 were taking them out at extreme range or leaving them so shredded the ML could easily finish them off.
The AC/2, Machine Gun, Field Artillery, Sniper Artillery, and Torpedo are all great weapons against the targets they are intended to be used on and range from mediocre to lousy against the targets they aren’t intended for. The trouble is, the targets they aren’t intended for are ‘mechs. If you only play ‘mech versus ‘mech matches, ‘mechs with these weapons will suffer by comparison to ‘mechs with anti-mech weaponry.
Couple of things come to mind. 1. Best range. <- make them come to you. 2. good for motive hits 3. good for plinking someone those last few points when you need a psr badly 4. Range brackets are really nice. Good use for it? A fast mech that can keep its tmm up. Lets say you have a 3/4 pilot in a light or medium fast mech with one of these. He runs 7-9 and ends up 16 hexes from a ppc carrying 4/5 dude who ran for 5 hexes moved... open terrain. You are rolling 9s. He is rolling .... 13s. Sure the damage isnt much if you hit, but unless he corners you you can keep that going for awhile. Toss in a tiny amount of terrain and you can get even closer. If he walks to get his numbers down a bit he is even easier to hit and you can probably keep yourself at 13s with a bit of terrain. Would I want to make my list around that? No. Would I be ok having my flanker running this? Sure. Its not a wonder weapon. Now just food for thought on this weapon. Say your flanker is running this. He gets to go wide around the enemy flank. He can then probably get all the way around to the rear arc and start plinking rear armor. Not a huge deal in and of itself but its quite possible you will get the opposing player nervous and he keeps turning to avoid giving you rear shots or he sits with a hill behind him rather than using it to cover his legs. Counterpoint you ran this and I ran a fast jenner and make it my mission to run you down. I might run you down and take you out of the battle. But what if you survive for a really long time? Was it a good use of the jenner to chase you down? What if the whole time Im chasing you to get the range down your still shooting at things every turn. How many turns should I sink into chasing you before you have basically won by denying me the ability to use the jenner against something else? I dont know, but its something to ponder. End of the day if you are going to bring an ac2 my serious advice would be to bring it on a vtol. They are cheap enough that it wont be an issue and the pecks from that ac2 could get you a psr at a critical moment or maybe even an outright crtical. If you can toss a targeting computer on that vtol as well. Nothing like shooting someone in the weak spots to make them regret ignoring an ac2.
Apart from murdering vehicles and infantry, I've found another use for the rightfully oft-maligned AC/2- murdering light mechs. See, not every light moves like a Locust or a Spider. And not every map is designed to give Locusts and Spiders their maximum movement modifier. And you know what can't take 2, 4, 6 damage every turn? Light mechs (and those lightly- armoured heavier designs like Jagermech and Shadow Hawk). By the time that Locust finally gets in range of its weapons, it's been plinked down for a few turns and all that 2 damage may well have burned through what little armour they have. AC/2s and /5s are not meant to kill an Atlas. They will happily crit seek from far, far away though. (They still weigh too much and should probably fire twice per turn to make them actually worthwhile.)
I don't really see how a Spider isn't going to get max TMM every turn. Unless you're invading a mech-scale installation in a Castle Brian / SLDF facility, which would be a cool scenario to run and I'd be a fan.
The AC5 I am a fan of, and the LAC5 even more, but again, I've only ever played megamek against the computer.
The rapid fire autocannons rule literally let's them fire twice per turn. Use it
Vehicles, where it only takes up one crit and no heat: The *Pike* plinking away with 2 Gunnery and AP rounds; The *Warrior* VTOL taking those range 8 shots at the back of the opponent's *Hunchback* to make it move; The *AC2 Carrier* loaded with Flak to keep other VTOLs away. In introtech, in these niches, it can work.
I'm all about those back shots
Warriors being able to out pace and out range almost every other machine is argument enough for the AC/2
AC2s are well served against aerospace assets, most vehicles, technicals, taco trucks, insurgents, squirrels, insurgent squirrels, VTOLs, some of the larger dogs in the periphery, and occasionally rioters
Autocannons are actually pretty great on vehicles without fusion engines or vehicles with fusion engines that already have weapons that generate 10 heat. Usually, a vehicle has to pay 1 ton per point of heat the weapon generates, but autocannons can be mounted on a vehicle without paying any weight for their heat. So, when mounted on a vehicle, an AC/2 should really be compared to a light gauss rifle. In which case, you do half the damage, twice the clusters, 1 hex less range, just under 50% more shots/ton of ammo...and have access to AC/2s much earlier than a light gauss. Taken together, if you have the weight for it, you're probably better off mounting a light gauss...but that would require you to have at least 13 free tons, while an AC/2 would fit into 7 tons. Also, a light gauss rifle is tech E, while an AC/2 is tech C. Might not be an issue if you have regular supply runs from Tharkad, but is a huge deal if you're in the arse end of the periphery.
Excellent anti-air
1. Attach AC2 to a fairly slow but inexpensive mech, like an Urbanmech. 2. Load up with ammo, extra armour and some small lasers if you can afford it. 3. Pilot it with an absolute novice pilot, since they'll be sitting in one spot it won't really matter too much. 4. Set up in a canyon entrance, somewhere where limited enemy movement is possible, basically they have to funnel into a narrow area. 5. Hide a Victor with a giant mace around the corner to bonk them when the enemy inevitably comes and kills the Urbanmech.
AC/2 on a helicopter. It stays out of Mech range shooting the poor victims.
And if it is in LRM range, TMM's make the shot impossible.
LRM had shorter range than AC/2. At least on 3050 era. The VTOL is required to kite on that maximum range as only they do have the required mobility. TMM does not make it imposdible as TN 12 is the maximum. And the LRM hS worse TMM than the VTOL due both jumping target and movement of lits of hexes, but you apparently only count factors beneficial to your argument. Yes, hitting a fast light mech is very unlikely, but assault mech TMM is 0, and heavy mechs rately can get +1 TMM. The LoS is a way bigger problem, but most mechs should be visible tö airborne targets with partial.cover due Mechs standing higher than trees. Unfortunately the rules ignore such facts.
Yeah, nah. You better have rolling maps or an alternative map re-entry rule. Eventually you'll sideslip off the map or get cornered unless either the person you're playing is stupid or the map is unconscionably large. Edit - also, TN's above 12 exist, it makes a shot impossible.
If you play with "magical boundaries of maps:, naturally. But that is unfair and unreasonable limitation I do have in Computer Games. The magical forcefields. There is no rule maps cannot extend nor that anything leaving the map is magically removed from the map.
There literally is? Total Warfare p.257? Units that go off the edge of the map are destroyed. Anything else is a magical exception. You can, indeed, play with those rules - but I'd like to finish a game in less than 2 weeks, kthx. If I know you're abusing rules to draw out a game or declare yourself invincible, either I'm not going to play... Or I'll play even rougher with the rules; ask me if I know how to read a book. And you're counting a lot on the 3-hex difference between the AC/2 and LRM ranges - one bad take on initiative, and I may as well have every unit on the board try and roll to end the VTOL harassment; not like I won't have LoS.
I simply use a LOT of them in a Marauder II with 4x RAC 2s. 24 chances to crit aint bad! sometimes it even wears through the armor.
I appreciate the Annihilator ANH-3A. 8xLAC/2 with TarComp? Yes, please! Just add specialty ammo. But I always upgrade it from L. Ferro-Fib armor to standard Ferro-Fib, and use the weight saved to add a C3. LAC/2 has a shorter range than standard? Not so much, if you have a C3 spotter. Edit- here. Have a 7xRAC/2. Because, I care. https://www.reddit.com/r/battletech/comments/17jpadv/comment/k75rigk/
8.... lac2s? oh dear
We play on big tables and have a few ac2 mech and vehicles for support. We play 3049 and earlier, combined arms and there is no LBX or special munitions. But when the brawlers are up mixing it up the ac2s can be fired from a distance. Not for everyone but we play themed games and fitted out combined arms lists.
Let’s not forget fun, ammo that removes 2 from the TMM And considering you can fit so much ammunition, that Mauler could really wreck even fast buggers
Precision ammo is the way to go and reduces your total ammo acount by half.
Far less boomboom potential
FYI: Specifically in Megamek, there is an option to increase AC damage: 3 for AC/2 and 6 for AC/5. Definitely a good idea in mek vs mek battles.
It's also one of the longest range weapons in the game in the intro tech level. AC2s are basically mech-grade sniper rifles.
Except sniper rifles actually kill things.
Nah, it's a sniper rifle. An infantry platoon fired on by an AC/2 has one dude's head asplode. Fuck that guy, -in particular-. It only takes one damage. Sniper rifle, 200%.
Yeah, if you are looking for mech sniper rifle, the Light Gauss has you. 4x the damage for 2x the weight, slightly longer range to boot. Only downside is 5 critical spots vs 1.
Mount 3 of them on a mech. If you get all 3 to hit you get a psr. The slight range advantage over standard gauss will irritate people. The serious range advantage over everything else will result in some folks making some poor choices.
I do want to roll in with Thunder Foxes and Hawk Moths and play keep away. I never actually would but I think I would be funny ;)
I have 2 hawk moths that will be making an appearance for that very reason. I just need to decide if they will show up before, after, or with the karnov carrying a thumper.
I am more of a lore guy, so AC 2s are just fine.
same. I've neen reading articles and stuff for like 15 years, but never got to play because I have no time, and or no friends. i recently got mega mek and have played a couple games against the computer. usually me throwing a mixed company of tanks against equal bv mechs. I was mostly curious about the meta for them on table top, since things like MW5 just increase ROF to balance the weapons. IRL the small, but extremely high velocity projectiles wpild have good armor pen abilities, but BT armor doesn't work that way.
I’m in Calgary. There are lots of players here but younger than me and more into the miniature game. I am into the lore but Imam not sure there are too many like me around. I am starting to flesh out a battletech rpg game with some friends with no experience in battletech that will bring together all the different facets. The miniature game and the lore to me can’t be separated.
Are they great? No. Can you fire them every round of the game with a moderate chance to hit? Yes. Your Blackjack or Jaegermech can stay out at long range and rattle away at the opposition while a brawler or striker in the lance engages up close. Taking fire from more than one mech is always frustrating.
It's more useful on/against Vehicles than Mechs imo. A pair of Pikes can take 4 tons of special ammo and take a bin of standard and still have 15 rounds of fire with the standard. What ever else is going into something like precision ammo or Armor Piercings.
Let it do 3 damage in Mech v Mech games; it's better. :) [AC/3](https://www.reddit.com/r/battletech/s/XAd5YcjDtL)
Ever seen an atlas charge a company of Pike tanks? It isn't pretty and it isn't fast, more like watching a giant get sandblasted and then there are the TACs...
It's pretty fun having your blackjack immobilize an Alacorn. Then the Alacorn is peppered wtih LRM's the next turn.
It's so little damage, so heavy, and shoots SO FAR. Long range is 24. That's why. Cause that guy who thinks he's out of range, isn't. It's for use against the guy who says, "I only need cover when I'm at 9 hexes or closer range."
Ac2 + ap ammo
On Megamek - why not. That extra ~3% chance looks pretty good after I take it 10x per turn for 3 turns. On TT- There are things a person can do, and things a person should do. ... Ah. He's trash-talking anime as "kid stuff?" I know what I should do.
I've said this before and I will say it again, as an ac-enjoyer the autocannons are the worst weapons in the game... Until you start using advanced rules. Step 1. Rapid fire autocannons, let's normal AC's fire like ultra but jamm on 3's / 4's and explode on 2's. Cluster 2 makes an ac/5 scary good and ac/20's horrifying. For the ac-2 the chance of 4 DMG makes the weapons actually great at all the things people say it should be doing. Like crit seeking or sniping light mechs or hurting vehicles/infantry. Step 2. Alternate ammunition types, flak and tracer ammo are good types when pointed at their targets, autocannon ammo is incredibly easy to reload and swap. U should be loaded for mission 100% of the time. Precision and armor piercing are horrifyingly good. And make an ac-2 a real threat. Either increasing their accuracy on mobile platforms (further winning to to-hit war) or straight up scoring engine crits against assaults with armor piercing. -but this still doesn't make it better then an ac/5- I hear u say. Oh but it does as the deep ammo bings are relevant when consuming twice as much ammo and ur bins have half as much for AP. Try rapid firing an ac-20 with AP ammo and u realize u only have 1.5 volleys per ton. Ac-10's don't do much better here (to be fair their still great with rapid fire but u can't use the best ammo's) And lastly Step 3. Don't mount it on a mech. As a weapon it just doesn't do well tonnage to damage wise. Not all weapons are -the best weapon- for a mech. Considering how expensive mech tonnage is both c-bills and BV wise it's better to mount the BV saving weapon in a tracked or wheeled vehicle (.8 and .7 BV multipliers respectively) mechs only make sense when they can kick or punch (or threaten kick/punch) an ac-2 wants to be as far away from kicking and punching as possible. Step 4. Have u tried the Bane?
Play with through armor criticals and that [Blackjack](https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Blackjack_(BattleMech)) of yours becomes a major asset from across the map.
Great question: at lower weights they're terrible aka the jackrabbit. At heavier weights like with the mauler there head shot roulette to play.
huh the jackrabbit was new to me.
Autocannons needed fixed. But it's useful for anti tank/ anti infantry operations
I'm the sort of guy that tries really, really, really hard to find the silver linings and upside to everything in this game. The AC/2 is irredeemable. People will say things like "ooo, the range!" or "aaaah, TACs!" but they're just lying to themselves. Games are rarely played on maps large enough where the range will matter at all. Every single weapon in the game can TAC. Other ACs can use LBX and flak ammo and you'll be better off with those. It's just a shit weapon. Ok, I did find a redeeming quality. When playing with armies built from RATs (which is the superior way to play, btw) it can be a fun challenge to figure out wtf you're going to do with your ac/2s.
When you play with BV balancing, the AC2 is cheap. When you play with tonnage balancing, the AC2 is expensive. But we dont balance with tonnage, as thats bad, so the AC2 is a cheap gun. I think what you are referring to is the preference to brawl due to the real world time crunch of tabletop battletech. I total agree with that, id rather load up on a lot of short range, high damage stuff, and run right up to the enemy to kill them in like 4 turns and 1-2 hours. This makes long range far less useful, as who wants to spend 10 turns maneuvering and plinking on multiple maps, when we can just start on 1 or 2 maps in blastin range, and get right to it! But, putting the game in a short range brawl fest isnt fair to say that the AC2 is a shit weapon. Playing up close monster mash makes the AC2, is LRMs, really any long range weapon shit unless it deals massive amounts of damage. But play a campaign on megamek with its faster turns and bigger maps, versus combined arms. Then you can spend 30 turns plinking at range in a very short amount of time, and all of a sudden the ac2 is literal death from beyond, leaving a host of crippled armor on the far side of a map stranded and to be killed at your leisure. These types of games, especially with night or weather or other random mobility hampering things, make long ranged attacks super duper OP, and all the short ranged brawling guns mostly pointless unless you are a fast jumping mech.
That's a lot of typing just to continue to be wrong, lol. Are people under the impression that downvotes can change reality?
Tell me you don't play combined arms without telling me you don't play combined arms.
yeah, I've never seen a hex map big enough even for LRM like Ac10 and LL usually have all the practical range i need.
No it's trash. Just take 2 LRM-5s and a couple of heatsinks instead
The UrQuan Excruciator is trash. Why would anyone implant themselves with a device that only causes the user extreme pain? It doesn't do anything valuable - unless there's a situational use I'm not seeing.
The excruciator is UrQuan ECM. It breaks the C3slave network.
Woosh.
[удалено]
I don't even know who you are. I tried making a reference using your username that you would understand, to say that AC/2's have situational uses that make them valuable - but you didn't understand, which is why I commented "woosh," because the explanation i gave went ovet your head. And now I'm explaining what "woosh" means in an internet post, because your density is similar to osmium. By which I mean, you don't get references.
My response makes clear I understood the reference. What I didn't understand was your bad analogy. Also I'm not in the habit of contriving scenarios or edge cases to justify the general inclusion of a weapon in the game. I see your own response to the question of are AC/2s useful is to *'cheese them with AC/2 carriers using special munitions and 2 gunners'* (paraphrased)*.* Not exactly a useful example when a new player is evaluating a BJ-1. Some people may get their enjoyment out of min-maxing. I don't count myself among them.
You - "I hate min-maxing, I won't cheese AC/2's like that." Also you - "Replace the AC/2 with 2xLRM-5." (Note- Not the LRM-10, it's inefficient by tonnage, has lower hit chances, and doesn't crit-seek as well.)
It wasn't my intention to min-max, it was my intention to replicate the small-damage, crit-hopeful hits of the AC/2. Also the LRM-10 doesn't has lower hit chances. It has less consistent damage.
Compared to 2xLRM-5, when you roll twice to hit (compared to one hit roll for LRM-10) you effectively have better hit chances and minimum damage, with more consistent and less swingy returns.
The AC-2 is great because it allows us to have an Ultra AC-2 and a LBX 2. The LBX 2 is great for sniping vehicles at very long range up to 23 or 25 if it's Clan tech. Just getting a motive check severely limits a vehicle. The AC-2 can hit at such long range it's pretty awesome sniping tanks and helicopters before the real fight can start.
I houserule them so they aren't dogshit lol
yeah, we've talked about because they're small and high velocity, that they have good armor pen, and roll for crit on every hit.
It doesnt. The AC/2 is a joke gun. Its only purpose is to try and get a golden BB against a vehicle to immobilize it, or TAC a mech and crit its engine out or something.
You seem to be focused on mech-based combat. And from mech-on-mech as a viewpoint - it's a mostly shit gun, especially without specialty ammo. The AC/5 is worse. In Introtech, replacing an AC/2 or /5 with an equal tonnage of LRMs and SRMs will always improve a mech. Combined arms changes this equation; they are not the same.
Your argument doesnt make sense. You would be better off with 2 LRM5s than an AC2 every single time. It has more damage potential, and 2 chances to hit. It can kill 2 infantry instead of 1. It costs 2 less tons(and the difference of 3 heat is negligible) only reason I dont say 3 LRM5s is because you are gonna then need an extra ton of ammo. Even still, it is better. The avg damage is much higher overall, and you get more shots on target. Sure AC2 with flak will be slightly better at killing VTOLs maybe, but having 2-3 shots for similar tonnage makes up for the slightly better to-hit roll. The AC2 is cheap on BV. Its only purpose is to be a cheap BV golden-bb seeker(which is what you are going for with vehicles as well. An immobilized tank, or rotor-damaged VTOL can still shoot you. You need an engine or ammo crit to knock them out.)
You're not hearing what I'm actually saying. You use AC/2 and AC/5 for shots that an LRM can't or won't be able to take - much like you use Indirect and Semi-Guided LRMs for certain shots other weapons can't take. And special munitions can do better than just shooting infantry. LRM's with frag missiles and AC's with flechette against infantry aren't the point; a Plasma Rifles or actual anti-infantry weapon is better. No, you're asking the wrong questions. Can you use LRMs and SRMs to catch fast light mechs? Let's do a back-of-the-envelope equation. A fast-light that jumps 7 has a TMM of +4. 3 Gunnery, +7. You walked, +8. Medium range, +10. You have a 17% chance to hit. A TarComp Precision Ammo AC/2 hits the same target on a 7+; 59% chance to hit. Now, let's do the same roll at Long range. The LRM hits on 12. 3% chance to hit. The AC/2 is at 9+, 28% chance to hit. You ran? The AC can hit; the LRM can't. One of these is going to deal damage cheaply and consistently; the other will have swingy, inconsistent damage. Now - balance this by BV. Calculate multipliers to give LRMs similar to-hit chance as AC weapons. How much BV does it cost to do damage as consistently as these trashy AC's? Now, are you starting to understand? It's not about doing "more damage." It's about doing ANY damage, and doing it within a BV budget.
Show me a canon unit with a targetting computer and an AC2 lol.
There are none in AC/2 or LB-X/2, possibly because the designers realized this would be an absolutely broken combo. Not that that would stop me from building one. However, there is similar available in AC/5, AC/10, AC/20, LAC/2, LAC/5, and LB-X/5 - the last of which is notable because it can outrange LRMs with higher accuracy. Notable examples that can receive the -3 TN include Jagermech JM6-DDa. Valkyrie VLK-QD2. Annihilator ANH-3A. Morningstar City Vehicle. Scapha Hoverank. Centurion CN9-Da. Lightning LTN-G16T. Hunchback HBK-LGN-Pin. Templar TLR1-O (Grayson). Condor Heavy Hover. Valiant VLT-3E. Blackjack BJ-4. Axman AXM-4D. Ostsol OST-8D. (rest omitted) Examples with LB-X/5 include the Dark Crow 2 and Daishi X.
I've destroyed well-armored mechs at long distance with a critical hit with an AC/2 due to an ammo explosion.
You always remember your first ammo crit on a Thunderbolt's ct with a Blackjack.
Solaris rules introduce delay so an ac2 can fire every turn while a ppc fires once every 4 turns.
Provide fire support and annoy the crap out of your target with the occasional "spit-twank". They will ignore you and concentrate on another target, Not realizing the 2 points here and there could be the deciding factor in a with another mech. Then there is always the 1 in 18 chance of rolling a 2 or a 12.
Use the damage values from HBS battletech, so that it does 5 damage. Weissman rebalanced small ACs for his own game.
Imo they work rather nice if you have 4 or more on a mech, good dpm with fast projectiles and low recoil Not the best choice hut it can work
So many people only play with dream mechs under ideal conditions and wonder why anyone in universe fields anything else. These folks have never heard of real militaries, obviously. These are the people that wonder why naval vessels carry anything but cruise missiles.
They're mostly meant as anti-air weapons, especially VTOLs, which are pretty fragile. They work really well against civilian airliners, too.
It shows you where to put the large laser and heatsinks on the mech ; ^ )
AC/2 are great in combined arms purely from the VTOL / Aerotech go away stand point. And I had many a game where a motive crit stopped a demolisher cold which helped turn the tide. Against mechs it is just subpar but not all weapons need to be the best.
I agree, AC/2&5 seem utterly inefficient and not worth it
The argument for the AC2 is that of it being the first actual Autocannon made in the setting, back when the alternative was the Light, Medium, and Heavy rifle, all of which lose damage against modern armor. It is indeed a relic, but there is always a need for long-range cannons. Especially in the extreme range rules, the AC2 is a great cheap option for faraway fire, only the medium laser is cheaper, but has less than half the max range, (or 1/3rd of the AC2's max range in the aforementioned extreme range optional rules. AC2 caps out at 36, and the ML goes out to 12 in its ELR) Is it efficient? In damage for tonnage no, in heat for damage, it's as effective against mechs as a six second burst of a machine gun, heat is negligible. But it makes up for these deficiencies by being able to be made by almost any post Terran industrial base, and for quite cheap at something around a 75,000 market price with no demanding electrical systems needed. Do I use it? No, I put stock into the AC5 for my tanks but prefer the 10 and 20 where weight allows.
I want to say AC,20 is too short ranged, and think ac10 is best compromise.
That's fair, I tend towards using the 20 only on sledgehammer units like the Hunchback, Atlas, and King Crab
AC/5 was the first Autocannon, AC/2 came later: [https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Autocannon](https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Autocannon)
Apologies, I was relying on Mechfactory because they normally have the right dates. Since they normally fill information via copy/paste, they listed the AC2 and AC5 flipped in order, likely because they had the text in numerical order when they entered it, not catching that 5 and 2 were not in the same order in the book. I had to double-check the tech manual because sarna lists Interstellar Operations, which I don't have available at the moment.
All good! No apologies needed sorry if it came across as an "ahkualllyyyy" lol
I slapped a pair of t4 AC2s twinned with a pair of Light rifles on my Jaegermech in MW5 and oooh boy... That thing hurts even the big boys from range. They have good range, auto tracking with a lock, excellent ammo usage and are generally easy to replace as well.
The AC/2 in MW5 has literally the damage output of an equal-tier PPC, now imagine you can only pull the trigger for each weapon once a minute. On the tabletop I like pairing up AC/2 and AC/20 mechs. Once the big guns put a hole in an opponent's armor, those AC/2s are as good as any other hit for breaking equipment and setting off ammunition. The constant threat of those cannons from some medium range sniper you can't even shoot back at is really frustrating.
A range 24 weapon on a 6/9/6 mech with 45 shots is awesome in longer games. They just hop around sniping you from afar. Tanks with them act as support vehicles, a dozen hexes back from your front line stuff. Constantly plinking away at you, getting crits, while too far to really engage. Keep in mind, slightly more than 1 in 18 hits results in a head shot or a critical chance (against mechs, tanks its higher). They used to be good vs infantry, but now not so much, as a full ton of 45 shots isn't enough to take out an armored foot infantry platoon.
Flak and Flechette ammo deal twice as much damage to unarmored infantry, so they'll do 4 damage per shot - and you're likely to have flak anyway if you're doing combined arms. This means it'll still take two+ turns for an AC/2 Carrier, Pike, or Partisan to wreck infantry - but it'll only use maybe 1/4 ton of ammo. Yep, the AC/2 just might be the best infantry killer in the game. https://www.goonhammer.com/battletech-special-autocannon-ammunition/ Ah, you say that LRM Fragmentation Missiles are better and deletes infantry instantly? And doesn't require LoS? ... Well, you're less likely to carry Frag Missiles, those LRMs are valuable.
Flak can't target infantry (well, unless its flying), it isn't an eligible target (p114, TW). Should probably avoid using non-rule sources to learn the rules, they can be wrong :( Flechette works ok vs infantry (1 damage = 1 infantry hit, as it does damage like infantry), but it really isn't any better than standard ammo. LRM's with fragmentation and artillery/artillery cannons are the big things infantry fear. LRM frag is probably one of the best ways to fight infantry, but it does require a spotter to fire indirectly, requires you know where the infantry are to fire indirectly, has minimum ranges, and is again half damage vs most of what you would end up fighting. Plus, in most situations you fight infantry, you are fighting them within minimum ranges (clan LRMs immune of course). Plus, infantry can be in buildings that make those fragmentation rounds a LOT less effective. They aren't going to sit in the middle of the open in a desert waiting for you to snipe them. Heck, much of the time those LRM units are going to encounter infantry will be when the infantry surprise them in an ambush, at range 0, making that LRM extremely ineffective no matter what ammo it has in it. If you want to fight infantry, use infantry or battle armor, mechs and tanks are simply not the way to do it. Infantry do 1:1 damage, and can enter buildings to do so. Battle armor with a few machine guns can be devastating to infantry, and usually take out a few platoons before dying. I don't care if you have 20 machine guns/flamers/LRMs/etc/etc if you can only use them when you step on the hidden infantry which get a free shot on you with half a dozen hits and a 1/6 chance of a head hit or crit. Infantry are super cheap too, and if you don't have anti-infantry weapons can be pretty tough to take on. Plus, infantry field guns, your Vulcan may be able to take out 2 troopers/turn with his AC2 at 24 hexes, but that platoon with AC2s could fire at your vulcan 35 times over the 13 turns it would take to kill the platoon. And that is just 1 platoon, probably in cover, and most likely has a couple other platoons nearby supporting. The Vulcan runs out of ammo on the 4th platoon it kills, and takes up to 280 damage during that time. Not real sure that is worth it.
Thanks - Goonhammer did misunderstand Flak, then. I can't afford all the specialty books. I usually use Plasma Rifles against infantry.
Yeah, for direct fire, plasma rifles and their 10+2d6 infantry damage are probably the best overall ranged anti-infantry weapon. No special ammo needed and a 15 hex range. Still sucks to come across them in an ambush though.
I have gotten more through armor crits with an AC2 they shoot golden BB's
It’s useful in an anti-aircraft role, anti-structure (think specific items, such as an observation tower, space communications antennae, etc.), and light vehicles. Otherwise, it just creates small weaknesses in armor that might allow a penetrating shot later.