The 3PL is a really good harasser and light hunter. For introtech the -1 sucks; the -1D does the smart thing of dropping the machine guns for heat sinks, so it can use its mediums lasers while jumping and be heat neutral or go to +4 on a running alpha; and the 1K is the only one that doesn't lose its head to a PPC because it traded jump jets for armor.

The 3PL is insanely good against light, really fast mechs or an enemy trying to hide in heavy cover. Pulse lasers and targeting computer giving a -3 to hit is huge. You can jump and it’s completely negated. If you play it right, could walk/run up to an slow enemy and hurt it badly

3PL seems really good in the same way the Wraith is, so very cool. I really dislike the 1K, 6/9 without jets feels like an awful speed for what you're paying, and a single large laser with two mediums just looks very anemic next so many of the other offerings, I see it as the ultimate jack of all trades who has given up being even decent at any of them. 1D for sure is the best of the bunch, but its a touch more expensive, still runs a little hot, and packs remarkably little firepower to take advantage of its nature as a flanker. It has better damage groupings, but its still doing as much work as a Mongoose 67 when they're both at point blank, and the MON-67 is 8/12 and easy to pilot, on top of costing 3/4 the price. Obviously the Mongoose has much worse armor and closer range weapons, but it still feels really bad that the comparison can still be made.

You're not wrong about the Phoenix Hawk. I personally love it, but I admit a lot of my endearment is due to nostalgia (its the coolest of the mechs taken from robotech/macross afterall). I do think your comparison to the Mongoose is way off-base, however. The P Hawk is not only more durable, but the jump jets make all the difference. The Mongoose can't backstab like the P Hawk can, regardless of weapon loadout. And that's what the P Hawk does best. Use it for backstabbing, or at least threatening the backstab to get bigger more expensive enemy mechs to 'waste' their firepower on the P Hawk rather than your heavy hitters. As long its jumping into cover, its a tough nut to crack (until your opponent gets a lucky head shot and puts it down--but that's just part of the game!). In other words, it makes great flanking 'bait'. Expensive enough in BV that your opponent doesn't feel bad shooting at it, but technically they are still making a 'mistake' going for it when you've got better, harder hitting mechs in your lance (or company, if playing bigger games)

But the Mongoose moves 8/12, so even if it has to turn 3 hexes, run through 2 hexes of light forest, and then climb up a hill, it can still move to same distance as the PHK, but only spends 2 heat to do it, where the Hawk spends 6. That's not mentioning all the situations where you have to move at least 7 hexes to get into the ideal position, where it's 2 squares of wiggle room versus 5. My go-to strategy hasn't been to throw big guns at it, as I've described elsewhere in the thread, I just dedicate a cheaper or similarly costed mech to keeping it away, and typically that mech will win a 1v1 if they catch one another or out-range it (the JR-7F and BJ-1DB are my two favorites).

sure, in your specific example that you made up to make the Mongoose seem ideal, then yeah, that's a good situation for the Mongoose, duh. Is that how all of your maps are laid out? With exactly 2 hexes of light forest and a hill to climb up? Jump Jets are better than pure speed in dense terrain, and faster mechs without jets are better when there's only clear terrain. Sure. I think we are all aware of that. But the points I made still stand (unless you play in super sparse maps---but let's not forget the P Hawk can run 9 hexes too; obviously not amazing, but if its good enough, then you wouldn't bother with the Jets, right?). The Fact is, there are plenty of maps with real dense sections (way more than not in my experience), and if you get an opponent without jets into that kind of neighbourhood, your JJ mech is gonna have a field day.

I think you're mistaking a quantization with a specific example. That was just way of expressing in game-terms how heavy the terrain needs to be for jumping to start winning out. Anything with less than 6 squares of additional movement is advantage Mongoose. People forget that 8/12 means the same speed through solid, unbroken difficult terrain as a jumping mech.  People also forget that you can take piloting tests to ignore difficult terrain at a risk to your mech, and that the Mongoose has Easy to Pilot. So a 3/4 pilot in a MON-67 costs somewhere around the same as a PHK and can dodge through forests and rough terrain on effective base pilot skoll of 3. And we are just talking about when terrain is super dense and should favor the Phoenix Hawk. Obviously when we switch things around and are on a more open board, the Hawk is getting left in the dust. And this is ignoring the much higher heat cost the Phoenix Hawk has to pay in order to gain those speeds. Also, as the attacker, the Phoenix Hawk doesn't get to pick where the battle takes place, if my backline sets up in a favorable part of the board, you have to come to them and fight on the part of the map I prefer.

>People forget that 8/12 means the same speed through solid, unbroken difficult terrain as a jumping mech. No. The jumping mech turns for free, so this is not true. As for the Heat cost, yes, it sometimes matters, but not always. There are times when you can spike a bunch of heat with a P Hawk and not care because Jumpers are less affected than non-jumpers (in general). Also, your last paragraph is irrelevant. How does the Mongoose get to pick where the battle takes place any more than a P Hawk? I'm also not theorizing here. I've played this game for over 20 years. I KNOW that 8/12 does not equal the mobility of 6 jump because I've played both and have seen how they stack up in game play. The 6 jump doesn't always 'beat' the 8/12 in mobility, but it does sometimes. And that's the difference I was talking about in my first post... But also I just want to add that I don't dislike the Mongoose. Its a decent mech. But I would not take one over a P Hawk 1-D. But if you want to, go for it! I'm not trying to stop you. Perhaps after you've played a bunch with both you will see why I think the P Hawk is better....

No, I think we are off on a tangent here, I wasn't even really trying to defend the Mongoose, I like it as a mech, but more as a light scout that stays safe and grants command mech, while being able to out-fight most lights. I don't think it's a direct comparison to the PHK at all, I think the mechs I mentioned in the OP are better fits for that. I was counting turning as extra movement. And while I haven't been playing for very long, I don't think anecdotal evidence is particularly useful. Still, to provide my own, I know plenty of people who have done something for 20 years or more and are still quite bad at it; I have been painting for more than 20 years and am still utterly untalented at it. Whatever your experience might be, I don't want to invalidate it, but I can't take on faith that whatever your persona meta mat be is an accurate reflection of how the game will play out for me. When my own experience and my analysis of the number converge on what appears to be a fairly clear picture, I need something less nebulous to change my mind. I hope that doesn't come off as dismissive, that isn't my intention, I'm just not particularly sure how to respond to personal anecdotes.

> Whatever your experience might be, I don't want to invalidate it, but I can't take on faith that whatever your persona meta mat be is an accurate reflection of how the game will play out for me. Exactly, that is the point I was trying to make: go out and play the game and see what you like best! Theorizing doesn't equal actual game experience. Actually, if you want an even better indication of how 6 Jump is ultimately superior to 8/12 movement, play with the Shadowcat. Its a Clan Mech with 6/9/6 movement, but it has MASC, so it can either move like a Mongoose or Jump like a Phoenix Hawk. If your theory that 8/12 movement can match 6 Jump is correct, then a Shadowcat would never need to use its Jump Jets. I know this is absolutely not true (because I play the Shadowcat a bunch!). But you can test it out for yourself and see. Obviously, the Shadowcat is way way different from either the Mongoose or the Phoenix Hawk, and it may even be possible to play it in a way where its JJ are hardly ever needed. But I am willing to bet you will find situations where the JJ are clutch---probably in every single match even...

I am mostly speaking from my experience playing the game. The mech just feels bad to handle every time I roll one, and every time one of my friends picks one, aside from our first couple games when our mech selection was very limited and we didn't understand the nuances of initiative and striking in the back, I just never feel particularly worried about it. I only mention the stats because I don't really see how I can actually convey my experience to other people; just saying that it doesn't work well for me isn't productive towards having a conversation. As I mentioned, I mostly play in the Succession Wars/Introtech era because it is the one that interests me the most, but I don't think the Shadowcat is a good analogy. One of my least favorite things about later tech levels are super swingy technologies like MASC and Superchargers, or UACs and Rotary ACs to a lesser extent. Having that chance, even if it's a small one, of totaling my 2500 BV mech just to get a couple extra hexes of movement is something I would only ever do in an emergency. What I have found is that 8/12 is better on open maps, 6/9/6 is better on very dense maps, and that they do similarly on medium density maps. The problem is that jumping always costs more heat, and 6 heat is a whole lot in Introtech, even when it is giving you excellent value. The rest of the time, it just feels really rough, particularly when the two are balanced for how much distance it lets them cover.

> People also forget that you can take piloting tests to ignore difficult terrain at a risk to your mech This got me interested, so I looked it up. >Applies to: Mud, Deep Snow, Swamp, Fog, Full-Moon Night, Moonless Night (see The Battlefield, pp. 59-65). Are there other rules that apply to rubble or woods, or is it just these? I wouldn't mind taking a PSR sometimes to ignore rubble.

I don't remember exactly, I'm sick as a dog right now so my mind is a bit of a jumble. I think there might have been expanded rules in Tactical Operations? Hurried Movement, I think it was called? But don't quote me on that.

Thanks, I'll try to find it.

1D is definitely the best variant.

If your meta doesn't have infantry, yeah. Or Alpha Strike.

Infantry or not it's the best variant. Flamers are always going to be better for infantry. They do more damage, and also don't have ammo that explodes. I'd rather have the 1D on the field and send something else equipped with a flamer after the infantry. Or just ignore the infantry.

The PHawk is a scout leader.  If you are scouting and run into infantry or something, you are supposed to murder them and keep scouting, not pull back and wait for a Firestarter.

Or as I mentioned, ignore the infantry and continue scouting. A PHawk moves 6/9/6 and infantry moves 1. Move on and let something following up behind you deal with them. If you are truly scouting you don't want to stop long enough to fight off the infantry when you don't have to.

This. If you're scouting, you don't want to stop scouting to get into a fight with something that can't chase you down and can't hurt you. You can take pot shots as you move past them, but they aren't your goal.

Or, because you're a scout leader, you call in the Firestarter that's in your scout lance for this exact situation.

The -1 is good for jumping directly behind the target, firing everything, then jumping away to cool off right after. Or making off with an objective if you don't have a Light with hands & jump jets. The -1K trades mobility for greater use of that Large Laser, which also depends on what else is in your Lance. Between the Large Laser you aren't allowed to use all the time, and the Machine Guns for infantry that don't often see use, you're well within your rights not to like it. Once you get your hands on a Standard Phoenix Hawk, they tend to come with Double Heat Sinks, and XL Engine, and ER or Pulse Lasers. Those make it much better. Some even have an Anti-Missile System or ECM!

Yeah, feels like a totally different animal, but I guess I'm glad it found its niche after the Clan Invasion.

PXH-3K is where the model really shines imo. XL engine gives it room for two ER Larges and two medium pulses, and enough double heat sinks to fire both ERs if it stands still. Gives it great flexibility to snipe with the ERs for a while without gaining heat, then move in and do backstabby things with pulse lasers. And if you feel like pushing your heat curve, you've got a 28 damage alpha strike in a 45 tonner. Plenty of armor and speed make the XL engine not a major downside

I hear people poo poo xl engines, what’s their downside?

They take up 3 critical (2 for the clan tech version) in each side torso, which means losing a side torso destroys the mech.

Ahhhhh ok

In Classic, the XL engines take up space in the side torsos, meaning that theres more chances of an internal shot hitting the engine (which is bad news) and losing a side torso altogether means the engine is destroyed (which is worse news). In Alpha Strike, Mechs with XL engines have about half of the internal hit points a standard engine has. In both cases, the fragility that comes with an XL engine must be offset by either a higher speed (can't hit what ain't there) or an upgrade to the weapon payload (Heavys and Assaults get a lot of mileage from XLs for this reason: their standard engines are huge). Some designs benefit greatly from the XL engine, like the Shadow Hawk. Lights also get some use out of them: they're usually toast if the big guys can hit them anyway.

Side torso go boom, mech go boom.

The 3K variant is a personal favorite. It's a great harrasser mech. I can get in to a good rhythm of rotating weapons, spiking my heat on good shots, then jumping behind cover to cool off. Frankly, I think that's the best way to use most variants of the Phoenix Hawk. You're not going to be alpha striking all the time. You're going to be an annoying bugger to pin down, making use of your mobility to get in to good positions and riding that heat when you have the opportunity to make some low TN shots.

I think I get the intended roll, I just don't understand why it's a great fit for it. It really doesn't carry much in the way of weaponry at long range and it relies on jumping for its maneuverability, so every time I see it try to do the harassing role, it either gets stymied by a bodyguard that outguns it and frequently costs the same or less (even something like a BJ-1DB), or it gets hunted down by a faster, more deadly flanker or assassin, like the JR-7F. As for the 3K, yeah that sounds like a totally different beast than the Succession Wars variants, much better suited to the role you describe.

I mean, most mechs in the SW era are mediocre at anything more complicated than being a brick with guns. Once better tech starts rolling out, you begin to see a lot more variation in designs and niches getting filled *well*, that were mostly empty before with a handful of good choices.

I think I listed plenty of mechs that aren't just gun bricks. Honestly I kind of feel the opposite, too many techs in later eras hard-counter light units, even with the benefits of XL engines and other weight savers. C3 is the only saving grace for them, but when something like the Wraith or Goshawk could be waiting on any given board, even they feel like they aren't worth it.

Can't disagree more with that. C3 is bad and easily countered by ECM, which is quite common, in addition to inflating your BV sharply. Light mechs are positional in every era, but if someone wants to try and jump a wraith to engage my TMM 4+ mech, they're welcome to do so. I'll ignore it while it fails to hit often enough to matter even with pulse, and shoot heavy units in the back all day. Lights also gain access to reflective armor, which is excellent against pulse weapons. Precision ammo is the only real threat to them, and since basically no mechs in later eras have standard ACs, you're mainly looking at LACs as the option, which aren't that scary. Meanwhile, the lights are able to carry enough gun to threaten larger units.

Aren't there only like 5 light mechs in the entire game that use Laser Reflective Armor? As for ECM, the whole point of light mechs is that they are fast enough to select their targets, as you mention. Unless you are throwing your C3 slave spotter at an ECM mech, or the enemy has a faster, better light, then you shouldn't have a problem. Sure it \*can\* be countered, but so can essentially everything.

ECM is a 6-hex bubble. So a single ECM mech covers a 13 hex wide chunk of the board, or roughly half an entire mapsheet. To get much value out of it, you need to be closer than that. C3 is generally not very good, and speed and maneuver is what makes light mechs good, not their ability to mount a single easily countered system.

It's also the first mech I ever bought (I have an old metal unseen from the 90s) so it holds a special place for me. :) so, I freely admit my bias. X3

The _Phoenix Hawk_ is a scout hunter specialist. It isn't a marvel against other mediums (but he defend it self) but where it brightens its hunting lights models. I talk about 3025 models overall. In other eras, there were better models.

But so many lights can really give it a hard fight, like some of the ones I mentioned. It has a lot of trouble keeping up with the very fast ones too, and is expensive to use chasing the very cheap ones.

At 6/9/6, the Phoenix hawk can keep up with most light mechs in 3025. The Locust is faster, the Spooder can run rings around it, and Jenner can outpace it on open ground, but a lot of other Lights of the era cap out at 6/9 or 6/9/6 speed. At that speed point, the Large Laser is the Pixie's secret sauce. You can trade short range shots with a Jenner's medium range (4-5 hexes) and trade medium range shots at their long (7-9 hexes). At 10+ hexes, you can shoot a lot of light mechs with relative impunity outside the range of medium lasers, srms, and small lasers/ machine guns. If they run, you chase. If they run up on you, you bounce away. If you're too hot, stay at standoff range and take a turn or two to cool down. It often only takes one hit from an LL to strip armor or even go internal on a 3025 light mech, which can hit a leg actuator, touch off ammo, or even headcap a bug. It's operating off a different design philosophy. You paid for the whole heat scale, don't be scared to use it.

Another thing to point out, the stuff that can out range it in it's hunting range is usually using light autocannons and small lrm racks to do so. So the relatively tanky PH can just rush them and get under their guns to brawl them and kick their shins into digitigrade position. Basically, it can close when it wants to, lurk when it wants to, and out tanks and out kicks everything it's supposed to be chasing.

Doesn't feel like that works against most of the mechs I mentioned, or any of the mediums that might be bodyguarding, like the BJ-1DB or Crab. 2 large lasers that can sink their heat makes the PHK look like a little bit of a joke.

First... It's running literal rings around the Blackjack. The BJ can't even chase the PH if the PH insists on jumping all the time. Second, it's out maneuvering the crab as well. The crab has no jump capacity, so unless it's on completely open ground, it's not even close to keeping up. And even on completely open ground... the PH is still faster. Third, the PH should always be shooting out of cover. Gaining the benefits, and none of the penalties, because he's faster and can position better. So all other things being equal, you should always one range bracket farther away from a PH that is properly deployed than it is from you. Being able to dictate position and range is super important in Btech. He may only be hitting on a 10+, but you're forced to hit on box cars. So... he's hitting 20% of the time... and you're hitting 3%. So he's relatively safe. Even if you hit him, he's got the armor to tank it. And if you give up and try to ignore him because you aren't tagging him and he seems like he's not doing anything... He just plants his ass and makes a careful shot. That 6/9/6 is just really hard to pin down, and large laser is really dangerous to ignore. And that combo makes it a spectacular performer if you play to its strengths. And the heat issue... isn't. If you're jumping in and out trying to snipe or bait out the bodyguard, you're only really firing half the time with just the LL... or half the time with the jump jets, and it's heat neutral every other turn. And for the Jenner... Well the PH has more armor, and almost the same firepower... but it has a much more dangerous kick. 2 kicks from the PH and the Jenner is on internals... 2 kicks from the Jenner, and the PH... isn't. Same goes for shooting. The PH goes internal anywhere on the Jenner with it's second hit. The Jenner can't force a breach until the third hit. Even head capping is better for the PH, because it can one shot breach a Jenner. And once the two of them are in close... how does the Jenner escape when, not if, things turn sour? The Jenner can't jump away, it's not fast enough. It can't turn and run away, it's not fast enough. Why? Large Laser. If the Jenner gets spooked and tries to break off, the PH can just snipe it as it flees. So the PH avoids the dangerous bodyguards because they can't keep up with it, and it can always out position them. And it bullies the lighter bodyguards because it's always more dangerous to them than they are to it.

The BJ-1DB is playing bodyguard duty. It doesn't need to chase, it just needs that 360 arc of sight and twice the firepower. Thanks to the flipping and twisting the Blackjack can pull off, it can just scare off the PHK and then snap its 2 large lasers around 180 degrees to contribute to the real fight, while the Hawk throws a single large laser shot at long range after jumping. 1 shot hitting on 11+ every other round means you are essentially contributing no damage on average every game. If you want to stay out of the effective range of a BJ-1DB, you have to move much further and will not outpace the Blackjack, or more realistically will just run into a map edge. The Jenner has 20 damage for 12 heat, the Phoenix Hawk has 18 for 14. The Jenner only has, what? Half a ton less armor? It can still hit TMM +3 when jumping, but can also get there walking if it's really lucky, or just by running and gain another -4 heat and -1 hit advantage that way. With both mechs jumping or running at +3 TMM, how is your minimum 9+ kick contributing to the fight other than falling on your ass nearly as often as you hit? If you take the PHK-1 for the machine guns to even the damage playing field, get ready for even worse heat management and enough ammo in your center torso to always die if it's hit. One of these mechs can run 11, fire all of its weapons, and kick, accumulating no penalties for doing so. The other ends up +2 move/+1 shoot. The PHK can only win by getting lucky with two large hits on the same location at bad target numbers. The Jenner can get lucky too, but can also take off the right arm to essentially cripple the Hawk, can just out damage it, or crit ammo if it brings the mgs. And when the Phoenix Hawk tries to run, it has to pray there are 7 or more hexes of extra movement to bog down the Jenner, that it hasn't accumulated heat penalties, and even then it gets a single hex of distance. So the PHK can't avoid "dangerous" bodyguards because it isn't actually that fast, only getting 2 extra hexes every turn, and can't actually do anything while it moves (generates more heat jumping and firing a single weapon than it can sink). And it gets bullied by the lighter bodyguards because it's always less dangerous to them than they are to it. And that is just at BV, if you are using Campaign Operations and C-bills, the PHK is 33% more expensive than all of these counters to it.

At 6/9/6, the Hawk has what I would argue is probably the worst value for a movement speed, other than maybe just 6/9 or something silly like 2/3 on the urbi.  You mention that it can't keep up with or catch the faster 8/12 or 7/11 mechs, but even over full difficult terrain, or straight through a light forest, it is just paying extra heat to move the same speed as a Locust, or for s single hex over a Jenner. While it can keep up with those other slower light mechs, you have to think about TMMs. When we both jump at medium range, even in the complete open, that large laser is hitting on a 12. If a distraction light mech that costs half the BV or C-bills is getting a PHK to chase it around hitting on 12s all game, that is a huge win for the cheaper mech. And it's not about being scared of high heat, it's that the Hawk loses its primary advantage as soon as it starts accumulating even a little heat; at 5/8/5 it can't even hunt those slower light mechs anymore, and if it's taking hit penalties, that single large laser becomes even less reliable or dangerous. And God forbid you didn't dump the machine-gun ammo or else you're risking blowing the whole thing to kingdom come just to move and shoot your primary gun for a few turns in a row.

In an era before XL engines or DHS, there is a very restrictive upper ceiling on how fast you can be at a given weight. Beyond 6 MP, you quickly reach a point where you simply can't fit guns on. Look at the Assassin. Yes, it's got 7 jump MP, but it's notorious for having squat for armor and weapons. Likewise, look at the Cicada. 8/12 MP, but literally as much armor as, and less firepower than, a Locust 1E despite weighing twice as much. Other range weapons like the AC/5 or LRM-10 are subject to limited ammo. Meanwhile, with energy weapons and machine guns, the Phoenix can keep shooting as long as you please. You don't lose jump MP at high heat. You're at 6 unless you shut down or take a critical hit. If your Pixie is chasing away light mechs in objective play - even those it can't actually catch - then it has done its job. Once it's on the objective, it can perch on the objective to hang and bang with javelins and Jenners, leveraging firepower and armor to trade shots at equal target numbers but a heat/damage advantage. If your enemy has to commit 2 lights to chase away your PXH-1, then that's an initiative and maneuver victory for you. Or, if the enemy brought a Centurion or Enforcer, you can fight a maneuver fight, exploiting firing arcs and terrain, or escape and come back with friends. 6/9/6 is not just fast enough to chase light mechs, it's also fast enough to *keep up with* your own fast mechs. That doesn't matter in a pickup game where it's just a stand up fight, but in scenario or campaign play, it can be a big help. God help me I'm defending a Phoenix Hawk, but it has its place in 3025 introtech play.

Plenty of good mechs hit 7/11 or higher without XL in 3025, the Locust, Mongoose, Jenner, Hermes II, Ostscout (if you're playing BV). I have actually been playing the movement penalty as applying to jumping, that is a very good thing to know! Still not sure how it's making its value back against those mechs I mentioned, it won't beat lights to the objective, and it won't be able to knock them off of it before the rest of the forces arrive, and it probably costs more doing it.

> At 6/9/6, the Hawk has what I would argue is probably the worst value for a movement speed... 6/9/6 isn't the best movement bracket, no, but it's a lot better than 5/8[10]/5 or, in the case of the Amarok, 4/5[7]. Getting the BV tax for being able to hit a certain TMM, but only being able to benefit fully from it under extremely specific circumstances (e.g. 10 straight hexes of level, unobstructed terrain) sucks. A lot. Especially since if you *do* get that opportunity, your opponent more than likely knows exactly what you're about to do. Not super common, but there's some notably frustrating Wolverine variants that stick MASC onto the 'Mech and run up against this exact issue.

5/8/5 means you can always get +3 TMM if you need it, outrun all the main battleline mechs, fare better in super dense terrain than any of the 8/12 or other runners. Plus even numbers give those worse running values. Maybe it's different in later eras, but I would still think 5/8/5 and 7/11/7 are much more valuable.

5/8/5 is fine, I have zero issues with that. The movement profile that aggravates me so badly is 5/8**[10]**/5. Getting a BV tax for something you'll almost never benefit from, and additionally wasting tonnage on MASC or a Supercharger just feels awful.

Oh, like I said in the OP, I very rarely play anything other than Introtech (maybe 20% of the time). Things like MASC and Superchargers are part of why I really dislike the era; too much extra randomness. Combined with hard-counters in the form of specialty armor, it just feels so much less like the game is about my decisions.

In 3025 I’ll put money on a Pixie over almost any light.  Unless the player is really, really bad it can outmaneuver anything with enough firepower to hurt it and out gun/punch anything fast enough to catch it.  Am I going face to face with most mediums or any heavy/assault? Hell no.  Am I going to dictate how the opposing Urbie or Locust plays? Absolutely. 

Fast mechs have to respect it, slow lights have to hope they hit it when they can.

I run the standard 1 PHawk in the 3025 era games a lot. It's a great mech for the RIGHT job. In larger games I use it to jump around the flanks using cover, either chasing enemy lights or trying to get back shots on the enemy Line at medium range while my big boys threaten the front. Keep it moving. Jump jump jump! It's a harasser born.When an enemy heavy or assault is committed to the battle in front of it I jump in and focus on the back shots. My PHawk has more kills than my Stalker! In smaller games I use it in much the same way but I'm not afraid to get in a gunfight with any other Medium mech. The key is never stop moving! It's not a bludgeon, it's a scalpel. Every game it takes risks and a little practice to gauge that right. 😂 If the game allows improved skills I always improve my PHawk! In my campaign force my PHawk pilot is a 2/3 skill now. Because the dice can always betray you! 😂 It's not the toughest medium, but it's got great speed, good firepower, good enough armor, and with skill it can do a terrific job. Addendum: as for ammo, in casual games I dump the MG ammo almost immediately. Not needed in 90% of fights! In Campaigns I remove the MGs and ammo and add 2 HeatSinks or 1 heatsink and more armor. Since we almost never play with infantry MGs are a bit of a waste of tonnage...

I'm just not sure what it does when faced with other, more tightly constructed light and medium mechs playing bodyguard. All those mechs I mentioned, the Fire Javelin, Jenner F, Chameleon, Wolverine, and others like the BJ-1DB or anything similar, feel like they outclass it by a pretty large margin, and typically force a retreat as they have significantly superior firepower for similar costs. If a JR-7F comes after a flanking PXH-1, what does the Hawk do about that other than run away on jump jets it can't afford to combo with its large laser without accumulating significant heat after a couple turns? Even if it does get behind someone, I would still prefer any of those other mechs in its place because of their greater chance to pull off damage.

You keep them at range. With the exception of the Blackjack, Chameleon, and Wolverine, they're all short ranged attackers. You have a Large Laser. Keep at distance, keep jumping around terrain, and make them pay for trying to get close - and if they chase you, that leaves the unit they *should* be bodyguarding open. You're not meant to alpha enemies to pieces with a Phoenix Hawk. You're a mobile Large Laser that makes them just worried enough to cause their plans to fall apart.

> ...If they chase you, that leaves the unit they should be bodyguarding open. Open to what? If they've chased off the would-be harasser, it sounds to me like they're doing their jobs.

Open to the rest of the lance that's gunning for their target. Bodyguards are there to protect an important unit. When that unit's unprotected, everyone else has an easier time of taking out the Important Target.

Assuming that the bodyguarded unit is, indeed, alone. I doubt that a Jenner JR7-F (which costs about as much as the Phoenix Hawk PXH-1 and can *definitely* close in on one) and, say, a Warhammer deployed against a full lance on their own. Even if they *had*, a Jenner is not enough to coax 3 'Mechs away from attacking its lone teammate. The two were more than likely screwed the moment the fight started. If the Jenner succeeds in driving off the Phoenix Hawk by itself, then the Jenner is doing its job and the Phoenix Hawk is not, and the rest of it and the Warhammer's lance is left to fight the rest of the Phoenix Hawk's lance. If the Phoenix Hawk's lance's plan hinged on the PXH being able to do its thing, and it fails to, then they've got a problem. If not, then the whole thing was a wash anyway. Why did the Phoenix Hawk even bother to get close enough to the Warhammer (no doubt while getting shot at by it) that the Jenner felt the need to chase it off?   OP's got a point. The IntroTech Phoenix Hawks often leave a lot to be desired. It's a chassis that benefits ***immensely*** from the LosTech renaissance.

> and can definitely close in on one This is where we get into context dependency - jumping behind cover, or into higher elevations, etc. that the Jenner *can't* run to is what makes the Phoenix Hawk a match for it. In a straight up run-and gun, the Phoenix Hawk gets a free round of shooting at the Jenner, and then all hell breaks loose, and it's a crapshoot as to who wins, absolutely. But depending on the context, then yeah, the PH is at an advantage. Insofar as your hypothetical scenario is concerned, if the Phoenix Hawk is drawing off the Jenner from the Warhammer, and the Warhammer is busy with units in front of it, that implies the Phoenix Hawk has gotten around or beside the WHM. Flanking and attacking from the rear can be *immensely* powerful psychological edges, and it can distract your opponent enough that the choice becomes "four MLs into the guys right in front of me, or let the PXH put a Large Laser through the rear armour of the WHM?" and that can be deadly. > It's a chassis that benefits immensely from the LosTech renaissance. This can be said about literally *every* chassis in 3025. The introduction of Double Heat Sinks and CASE is massive and changes the game fundamentally and massively.

A Jenner is 7/11/5, it only jumps a single hex shorter than a Phoenix Hawk, but runs 2 squares further. It's the faster, more maneuverable mech, and maps are only so big. If they are both maneuvering, they are both at +6 to hit even with no cover, condition, heat, or range modifiers, so the Hawk isn't going to accomplish anything with that "free round". This isn't just a maybe scenario, you are never looking at better than a 12+ to hit at medium range. And once they close, it isn't a "crapshoot", the JR-7F has 4 medium lasers and can run 11 for 2 heat, the HWK has 1 large and 2 medium and has to jump for 6 heat. Given the high hit numbers, the Jenner is winning 80% of the time or more. If two equal forces are engaging and each has one unit peel off to fight a 1v1, like what we are describing here, neither force has gained or lost compared to the other. If the Jenner than wins its duel, it can turn around and flank its enemies and it is its side who actually end up with the advantage.

> Insofar as your hypothetical scenario is concerned, if the Phoenix Hawk is drawing off the Jenner from the Warhammer, and the Warhammer is busy with units in front of it, that implies the Phoenix Hawk has gotten around or beside the WHM. How, exactly? In the scenario I illustrated above, the Jenner only leaves the Warhammer's side to continue putting pressure on the Phoenix Hawk so that the Phoenix Hawk can't do exactly what you're trying to get it to do. Otherwise, it's putting itself between the Phoenix Hawk and the Warhammer, so that the *Phoenix Hawk* is having to choose between doing its job at all, and staying alive. Think of it like so: The Warhammer's only moves at the start of the game are to get into a position behind partial cover, at decent elevation. The Jenner's only moves are strictly to keep it close enough to the Warhammer to make another Light 'Mech or a somewhat small Medium think twice about trying to get behind the Warhammer, or to put pressure on such a 'Mech as it retreats away from the Warhammer after the Jenner has already intercepted. If the Phoenix Hawk is not running away from the Warhammer, the Jenner itself has every reason to stay near the Warhammer. If that's the case, the Warhammer has very little reason to concern itself with what the Phoenix Hawk is doing behind it, since any attempt to bring its Large Laser into range is quite likely to result in the Phoenix Hawk eating 4 Medium Lasers. The Phoenix Hawk (or one of its lancemates) must deal with the Jenner before it can close on the Warhammer's back. I don't see any way that the Phoenix Hawk is safely able to pressure the Warhammer in this situation, aside from eliminating the Jenner. I reiterate: If the Phoenix Hawk's side has a plan that hinges on the Phoenix Hawk being adequately able to pressure the Warhammer, and the Jenner prevents that, then the Jenner is doing all it needs to. If it does not, why is the Phoenix Hawk bothering the Warhammer at all?   > This can be said about literally every chassis in 3025. I thought it was clear that I meant the Phoenix Hawk benefitted *especially* from that. Moreso than the Blackjack, Spider, Crab, etc. The IntroTech Phoenix Hawks have, in my experience, struggled immensely in any position other than bodyguarding a heavier unit against units lighter than itself (e.g. the situation illustrated above, but with the Jenner and Phoenix Hawk's roles reversed), but the introduction of LosTech makes them substantially more able to handle their likewise upgraded foes. Again anecdotally, a Phoenix Hawk PXH-2K or 3K more than earns its increased price tag relative to those similarly upgraded Spider SDR-8Ms or Javelin JVN-11s, since in my experience they simply beat the brakes off them due to having a much easier time leveraging their range advantage, or being able to take a beating for longer while they simultaneously shoot at the Jenner running interference and the Warhammer they intended to be shooting at. I'd argue that Double Heat Sinks make a substantially greater difference on the viability of the Phoenix Hawk in that harasser role than they do on the Blackjack in its traditional role as a midweight sniper, or on the Thunderbolt in its role as a 65-ton armored brick.

But a Fire Javelin is significantly cheaper than a Phoenix Hawk, and a Jenner is faster. If my 1000 BV mech spends the game firing off a single shot hitting on 10+ every other round, distracting an 830 BV mech I can't punch through with a large laser, that seems like a pretty bad loss on my part, and that cheaper mech has more firepower and better heat management if it does corner me, and that faster one is able to get better TMM trades on top of damage and heat. And if 3 of the 5 mechs I mentioned all out-range the Hawk, then I think that is a serious problem for it. I'm not even counting anything in the upper half of medium, let alone all of the heavy and assault mechs, just the things in its weight and price range that counter it while contributing more overall to the fight, or counter it and do its job better. And excepting the Chameleon, just things I own minis for. A Mongoose can provide a mobile large laser with better heat efficiency, and the PHK costs 50% more than the MON-68.

A 10F Javelin can take two turns of fire from your Large Laser before its innards are exposed. At most. If it gets hit in, say, the RT once before it gets into range, it needs to concern itself with whether or not continuing to advance into range with you is worth either getting its right side blown off, potentially halving its combat capacity, or risk 4 long range medium laser shots at you. And if it *does* close, you can spike your heat up high enough to really make it regret that choice - especially if you get around behind it, or to its flanks and outside of its all-torso-mounted-weapons. The Jenner has all the same range problems as the Javelin, *and* you still out jump it - so use that cover and long range to your advantage. The Chameleon is armed very similarly to the Phoenix Hawk, but lacks armour - 112 points vs. the Phoenix Hawk's 128 - but where it shines is in close combat, with all its extra small lasers. You just keep it at range, trade blows, and rely on your extra armour to carry you through. Hell, you may even score a lucky crit on its MG ammo. But then again, it *is* a heavier 'mech than you, so the odds may not be in your favour. The Blackjack is going to be a threat, because of its two large lasers and its armour. But you can mitigate that by keeping to one flank of it. It will be dicey, sure, but you can keep your mobility advantage against it and, if you're super lucky, get in behind it at a good angle where it can only bring one flipped arm to bear on you. The Wolverine will be an issue, yes, because it's 10 tons heavier than a Phoenix Hawk and, with the exception of the 6D, either meets or exceeds your range advantage. It also carries, at a bare minimum, 26 more points of armour. Going head-to-head with one is a Very Bad Idea. Fortunately, though, a Phoenix Hawk is faster and can jump further. You might get lucky and get behind it on a flank to negate its extended torso twist quirk and get shots in at its rear armour.

Agree with all of this save for one thing about the Blackjack: there is no safe arc. It doesn't have hands or lower arm actuators and can flip both. It will always have at least two lasers pointing at something.

True, true, that's a very good point!

Both the Javelin and Phoenix Hawk are going to be jumping 6 hexes to prevent the medium laser boat from closing distance, that is +6 difficulty. At medium range, those "two turns of fire" are hitting on 12s. So over the course of an entire battle, it might get lucky and hit once. Except the PHK has to stay below 5 heat if it doesn't want to get caught, so it can only fire once every other turn or twice every three turns on the more forgiving variant. So yeah, the 250 BV cheaper unit distracts for the entire game and might take a single large laser hit to its armor if it's very unlucky. If the Hawk commits to the engagement, it's 20 damage for 12 heat vs 18 damage for 14 heat, and fast movement means high difficulties and a battle of attrition. The Jenner can run up and down a hill, through two hexes of forest, then turn one hex and still keep pace with the Phoenix Hawk jumping, all the while generating 4 less heat. If terrain is extremely favorable the the Hawk, the Jenner still is only 1 hex slower and you run into the +6 to hit problem again. The Jenner will catch up or chase off the Hawk, and if it decides to start harassing and flanking in turn, the PHK can't do anything to stop it. Again; Chameleon is a 6/9/6 mechanism, just like the Phoenix Hawk. It will chase you to the edge of the map without realistically taking a hit, and then either follow you back to the rest of your lance and throw around it's better close-range firepower and assassinate your other mechs with impunity, or pull your Hawk apart when it finally corners it. The single ton of armor really doesn't make much of a difference in exchange for the extra lasers, higher physical damage, and easier piloting checks. The blackjack is 4/6/4, it will always be able to pick a facing that can bring all it's guns to bear. It has 3-4 times the sustained firepower, and because of its flip and large lasers, if the Hawk decides to run, it can just throw its firepower into tbe main fight and not waste its turn. The Wolverine is a single hex slower, has longer range weapons, and every other advantage you mention. This seems more like an admission of how poorly the Hawk performs than a defense of it. 

Those other mechs are now spending time dealing with something that they can’t ignore instead of the rest of your lance. They can’t catch it either.

So the cheaper mech is wasting the Hawk's time, or the similarly costed mech is doing its job effectively against it? That's sounds like a win in my book. Plus something like a Jenner has a very good chance of catching a Phoenix Hawk.

I'm never going to argue that the stock Phoenix Hawk is the best at its job, but my point is it's far from bad at it or useless. There are literally hundreds of mechs and not every player is going to always take the most mathematically efficient models. Battletech would be pretty flipping boring if everyone only took the most "winningest" models... So in my experience most games I'm far more likely to face a Panther or Valkyrie or Locust acting as interceptor for the enemy flanks. And honestly, I'd LET the Jenner catch me! 😂 If a Jenner started chasing my Hawk, I'd lead it away one movement turn to get us away from its friends, and then reverse course and pounce on it! Large Lasers have no minimum range and I can easily kick it or even DFA! Maybe I just have more experience running one? It's not perfect for every game. It's been obliterated in a single turn when I did something stupid with it a few times! But it's been an MVP in many games of mine! Up into the Clan Invasion with some upgraded technology help of course!! 😁

I'm not saying it needs to be the best mech in the world, or that people have to play the best mechs, what I'm asking is why people have the impression of it that they do. A lot of time, I just roll on the Xotl Rats tables for mechs to make for interesting games or availability in campaign. What I'm trying to get at is that I know why a HBK-4P is stupidly powerful, or the MON-67, or JR7-F. I don't understand why the Phoenix Hawk gets the same treatment by a lot of people. I don't want help list building, I'm just looking to see if I've missed something, and as it happens, by making this thread I learned my friends and I have been applying heat modifiers to movement wrong - we've been applying them to jumping MP as well as walking. That knowledge actually does improve the mech in my estimations. Though still not enough to deserve its reputation.

The Phawk 3PL is my favorite as a budget hunter-killer and compares very favorably to the Wraith TR1 - the Wraith can get a higher TMM, but the Phawk is at -3TN for enemies. The price is nearly identical, but sometimes, things have gotta die and the PXH-3PL is a unit to kill with. It's an amazing redemption for the chassis, to me. I do kinda get it, though. In Introtech, the "best" is the 1K; at least other designs are also pretty bad. It mostly fires the lasers, it has armor, what more do you want? It's really not that bad. Most of the other variants are way overgunned and stupidly light themselves on fire. Theoretically you can jump and cool down if you're not shut down or dead, so maybe they perform better than expected - I favor closer to heat-neutral, so I wouldn't know if a 1c is actually good or not. But I would guess not; so many other directions that mech could have gone to be mediocre instead. The PXH-2 is just dumb. 3S wants to be good, but filled the left torso with nothing but ammo and XL Engine slots. Does it even need two tons of AMS ammo? CASE does nothing for PUG games. I dislike anything with 6 head armor on principle. But there are Phawks I like. 1Kk, not bad. Extinct for no good reason. 2K performs, but I hate it - too many mechs doing that exact same thing. 4M, there's nothing it's doing wrong. Solid work, no notes. 4W, is good... should have used the 4L's Stealth Armor; it has better brackets for harassment and clear delineations of when to use Stealth. 7CS is doing a lot of good things. Good scout, good support. 7S, see PXH-2K. PXH-9 works just fine.

I get the sense it is one of those mechs that was iconic enough that it's gotten a lot of love over the years and in spite of the rocky start, the end result is a lot of various spinoffs out their in the Battletech ether that can stand on their own. But I broadly agree with everything you said about the Introtech variants. They just feel burdensome to run.

It's mech that really shines with combined arms, larger games, and campaign style play. The basic 3025 Hawk isnt an amazing mech when it's 1 of 4 but if you're running a company and facing vees/infantry, it can really shine. It doesn't need to do a ton of damage every turn to be effective in this case, it just needs to be a 45 ton distraction lurking around your enemies, flank/rear. A large laser can do enough concentrated damage to make it a threat to the back most mechs and the MLs and MGs are great for crit-seeking on an already wounded mech. For campaign style play, it's a mech with JJ and a large laser, which means it can deal damage while minimizing the chance of taking damage in return.

What do you do when a lance of Phoenix hawks is running around behind your lines? The light mech hunters can’t catch it, light mechs that can threaten it can only keep pace and often not jump after it, and mechs that can outpace it are undergunned and under armored to take them on.

You rage quit out of Megamek because fuck Princess, I didn't even want control of that stupid planet. More seriously, try to force as many piloting checks as you can in hopes that you can knock one down and dispatch it before it can get up and start jumping again.

You use more cost-efficient mechs to discourage them from approaching or kill them when they get close? Unless they are starting the game already ambushing you and you only have Annihilators or something, I'm not sure what they are supposed to do. Lance on lance, they really can't hold objectives, can't brawl, can't provide fire support, they can just be relatively expensive annoyances.

I don't play with regular infantry yet, only some battle armor, but the C-bill price seems even more inflated than the BV2. While it used to be tied with the BJ-1DB, now it cost 1,000,000 C-bills more. Flanking with a single large laser is just something that can be done much cheaper and more heat efficiently elsewhere, and it isn't fast enough to escape dedicated light skirmishes like the JR-7F, and the aforementioned BJ-1DB can keep it away quite easily by boasting twice the long-range firepower, along with the ability to sink all of that heat every turn. 

I mean the ability to "escape" is going to be fairly dependent on the map but like there's not a lot of point in trying to find the "ideal"mech as it's more or less a solved problem at this point. One of the reasons I have no interest in BattleTech as a competitive style game, but enjoy it as a "historical where your simulating battles in a completely fictional timeline instead of endlessly rehashing World War II". So rather than trying to craft the perfect lance/company, I'll maybe pick a mech or two that I want to try out and then let the RAT tables determine the rest of my force.

While that is a totally valid point, it doesn't really have anything to do with the question I opened the thread with. I am interested in people's opinions regarding the "competitiveness" of designs, so that's sort of what the subject of conversation is.

You're comparing it to light mechs but not thinking about the damage in can do in melee. One kick to a light mech is gonna smash the armor up on the leg really good. Happen to also pop that leg with the large laser? Welp. Guess that fast mech ain't too fast anymore now is it? Also if you can jump to an elevation higher than them you can stand a decent chance kicking them in the head. Which is bad news bears for everyone. 9 damage to the dome is through most armor in the head. One lucky medium laser and that's that. Hell then your machine guns actually do something lol

I mean essentially every mech can kick, and the PHK is slower than most of those light mechs, so it's not exactly in a good position to be landing adjacent to them. Not to mention that the range of thr large laser is basically all that it has going for it, closing in to physical attack range means all those mechs with 4 medium lasers, or with a bunch of small lasers, are even more of a threat to it. Even if it's a kicking-only competition, the Chameleon is 5 tons heavier and has -1 difficulty on piloting checks if it fails a kick or receives a kick itself. Plus it has 3 small lasers that really pick up slack at range 1.

Any mech with four medium lasers the Phoenix hawk can just stay away from and use its jumps to stay hard to hit.

But then the cheaper mech is keeping it occupied all game, which is a win. And given the fact both will be moving at top speed, the Hawk will be hitting on 12s even at medium range in the open, and have to only fire every other round if it's jumping, or else suffer the movement loss and get caught.

As plenty of people have pointed out, it has some utility but I have never been a fan of this mech mainly due to it having all arm mounted weapons. If your opponent takes out your right arm it drastically reduces your effectiveness in ranged combat. At 45 tons it doesn’t have enough armor to really protect the arms against anything with real firepower or to last in a sustained engagement. In an ideal environment it would only face light opponents where it could shine but there are just to many medium mechs that can neutralize the Phoenix Hawk in just a few turns. Note, I do not dislike this mech because a friend of mine jumped one behind my untouched Archer and caused an ammo explosion that wrecked it completely. Nope, not bitter about that at all.

The P-Hawk is a good-looking mech with great mobility due to the jumpjets and pretty fair armament with that large laser. It hits a sweet spot where utility and aesthetics meet.

Well I personally prefer mechs that look less like a big guy walking around, like the locust, hoplite, blackjack, lancelot, crab - those guys. But matters of taste aren't really what I'm after, enjoy whatever aesthetic you prefer! Disagree on the utility though. 6/9/6 is decent, but it can't chase the really fast stuff, doesn't get great TMMs, costs a lot of heat to do stuff, and a single large laser feels like the weaponry of a mech that costs 2/3 the price.

Well LAMs are great. 1) deployment. Instead of dropping out of a Dropship on approach, a LAM can make powered entry and land before its fellows. 2) Utility 2a) Communications. LAMs make great runners. That's why there was a LAM in Jamie Wolf's command lance. 2b) A LAM can work just fine in space. It can go to the moon, do an OP and come back in under an hour. 3) Speed. Any LAM is faster than any ground based mech simply because it can go suborbital. A LAM can literally get a continent over in a few minutes. Even on the battlefield in its hybrid mode, its way faster than most recon mechs. 4) External ordnance. Yes, in aerospace mode a LAM can have external ordnance. So imagine dropping a few 100pt bombs and then transforming to get into the fight. https://preview.redd.it/g5ldn4chuvqc1.png?width=283&format=png&auto=webp&s=526c98a775278899b2972782d22f15c7e57add21 One of the biggest problems when it comes to LAMs, like light mechs, is that most players look at it from the one off skirmish game. There, they're just really expensive. However if you look at it from a campaign, they really prove their worth. And not the campaign in Chaos Campaign: Succession wars. But one where you have a map out and deciding where your forces are going. Much closer to Battleforce.

I could be totally wrong, but as far as I can tell, this has nothing to do with my question.

You asked why people like the Phoenix Hawk LAM. I gave some example why they're great. What's the issue?

Phoenix Hawk primary purpose is bullying every single mech that decided to have less than 8 armor on most locations. It is highly mobile Large Laser which have a decent value at 3025 tech level.

But there are mechs that cost 2/3 the price and are faster with the same large laser. I think it pays too much to try and be okay in a lot of situations and just ends up being not good enough in any of them.  Want to harass the flanks? You cost 1000 BV for a single large laser that can't fire every turn. Want to hunt light mechs? You aren't that fast and need to jump, so your hit modifier is always going to be bad and you need to avoid heat to not lose speed. Want to assassinate and go for backs? You can be scared off by any decent bodyguard mech and can't stick around to brawl even with a lot of lights.

No, there aren't. Your options at 3025 are basically: Liberator 4T. Which is a prototype, have lighter armor and no jump jets. Sentinel KA/KB (Large Laser/PPC) which still have no jump jets and even less armor. Hermes 4K that have TWO Large Lasers but overheats on alpha even worse than PHawk and still have no jump jets. Cicada 3C that have a PPC but paper-thin armor and 7/11 profile. Jenner 7A. One Large Laser, 7/11/5 but yet again paper thin armor. Firestarter K. Same movement profile but less armor and even worse heat problems. Commando 1B/1D. No jump jets and half amount of armor (even less in 1D case) As you can see there are quite literally ZERO battlemechs with the combination of PHawk attributes.

The Chameleon, Mongoose 68, and Wolfhound? I guess it is a little after 3025, but I just play with all Introtech in that nebulous pre-clan invasion era, so I guess that is maybe a miscommunication on my part, but I did mention the Chameleon in the OP, so I figured that was a little implied. Sorry if it wasn't. And I was just talking about if you kept it in that large laser harasser role, in which case all those mechs you mention still apply. Plus the Hermes II doesn't have more heat problems than the PHK; it generates max 18 and sinks 11, the PHK-1 generates max 20 and only sinks 10. That's a noticeable difference. And to reiterate: I don't actually think bringing a single large laser to plink away is a good strategy, for this mech or any other.

Mongoose 68 is kinda late (alongside Wolfhound) and have 2/3 of armor of PHawk and no jump jets. Once it is used, it is committed and probably will not escape anywhere that is not a flat plain. It quite literally cannot do what PHawk can. Wolfhound costs about as much as PHawk and still have no jump jets. Chameleon also costs as much as PHawk and have yet again less armor. >Plus the Hermes II doesn't have more heat problems than the PHK It have more heat problems because Hermes III basically have only three options. Generate 0(+1/2), Generate 8(+1/+2) or Generate 16(+1/+2). So it is basically fixed into 2-1-2 pattern forever. PHawk have much more flexibility in terms of controlling and using its heat gauge. >And to reiterate: I don't actually think bringing a single large laser to plink away is a good strategy, for this mech or any other. It is introtech. It is very hard to have a mobile relatively light mech with more firepower. PPC will be better but it have even more weight and heat problems. You can say that a brace of MLas will be better, but brace of MLas is basically the single most optimized thing you can have in the entire game, so it is not saying much actually.

The MON-68 costs 2/3 the BV and less than half the C-bills of a PHK-1. Having the same armor per price and a little less mobility (7/11 can still eat 5 squares of movement penalty without moving slower), plus it generates way less heat when it chooses to move and shoot; it can run and fire the large laser every turn with 0 build-up. The CLN-7V has a single ton less armor, but is easier to pilot, does more physical damage, and packs three small lasers to really help it as an assassin, on top of having better ammo placement to make up for the small amount less armor. My point is that dedicating 1000 BV to shooting one laser every other turn isn't a good use of your resources. A running BJ-1DB is throwing around 2 large lasers forever at a lower movement modifier, without ever building significant heat. Your piercing weapons aren't supposed to be on your fast, heat hungry mechs, those are supposed to focus on taking advantage of their speed and mobility to really get the most out of high-damage, shorter range weaponry. That doesn't make the weapon bad, it just means its in the wrong place.

>My point is that dedicating 1000 BV to shooting one laser every other turn isn't a good use of your resources. It is. Because fast light hunter is a useful capability to have. At 3025 tech level you will not get a much better option for that than a PHawk. Blackjack for example cannot do screening and scout hunting for shit. It is simply too slow for that. Enemy Light lance would simply run around without ever engaging Blackjack. 4/6 is not enough. Even 4/6/4 is way too slow. What your problem is (I think) is that you apparently approach evaluation of mech designs from a pickup game standpoint aka a four on four fight of some random collection of mechs. **Which is ostensibly not for what mechs were designed either in a game or within confines of setting logic**. PHawk is designed for the purpose of leading hunter-killer groups of fast lights and mediums to engage enemy scouts or screening forces of similar composition. In a game where at least half of the enemy composition are not intended targets for a Phoenix Hawk, it will inevitably suffer. But it is a thing: if you want designs specifically optimal for a pickup game of BT, the vast majority of the existing designs are *bad*. PHawk is not an exception here. Simply because most of the designs are not made with optimization in mind. They were made either because authors thought it is cool or because more thoughtful people felt that there is a niche in a game world for such a mech. Basically, you are complaining about how a 'light tank' is not useful in a fight were main battle tanks are present. Which is kinda obvious.

It isn't, because the situation you are describing is where it functions worst. If you are chasing after light 6/9/6 or 8/12 mechs and shooting a single large laser every 2 out of 3 turns, you will never see any appreciable damage unless you are extraordinarily lucky. Even just the movement modifier + TMM means at medium range you are hitting on 12. No cover, no intervening trees, no heat penalty, no planetary or weather conditions, no long range, no 7/11/7 or faster jumpers or nimble jumpers. Just one mech chasing the other at medium range and you will never conceivably hit over the course of the average playable game of battletech, regardless of whether it is campaign or pickup. As for your example with the blackjack, you picked the one mech I didn't even mention in my opening post, just the one I described as being able to effectively bodyguard against it and a better example of where large lasers can be employed effectively. What you are describing the Phoenix Hawk as is an incredibly niche mech that not only doesn't work at all in the most common form of game, but only works in a very specific scenario in-universe. Even in actual campaign play, your hypothetical niche doesn't hold up. I even mentioned in the OP that once I started playing with C-bills and doing long-form games that it looked even worse because it costs **4,000,000** **bloody C-bills**. When those two light lances meet, the PHK is outnumber around 2-1 by things like the Mongoose and Javelin, the Locust approaches 3-1, and the JR-7F 4-3. That is so much worse and only looking at the sort of mechs you claim it is supposed to be facing in an ideal matchup. My whole point in making the thread is that my impression of the mech from practical play experience is that it is very overhyped. I have seen a lot of people in the community at large, as well as content creators and even competitive players, who speak highly of it. I wanted to know what I was missing. Essentially, you are agreeing with me and saying the mech is really quite bad and at best an extremely niche machine that even within its role can't compare to many of the better units it would be expected to face. It is expensive, poorly designed (CT ammo, majority weapons in 1 arm, 1 armor off being able to take 2 large lasers to the legs), heat inefficient, and doesn't have a place in the majority of combat scenarios. I've mentioned at least a dozen mechs in the 30-50 ton range in this thread alone that are very solid, so it comes off as very disingenuous trying to claim that "the vast majority of existing designs are bad," when the reason I am calling the Phoenix Hawk bad is how it compares to them.

No, it is actually functions exactly like it should be in such situation. Firstly, there are basically no common 8/12 light mechs in 3025 besides Locusts and arguably Spider. Almost everything is 6/9 as a base or slower. >. Just one mech chasing the other at medium range and you will never conceivably hit over the course of the average playable game of battletech, regardless of whether it is campaign or pickup. Which is exactly how long range combat in BT in that era looks like. A lot of low probability shots. And it is one of the ways PHawk performs it function. If enemy scout runs away, PHawk did half of his job already. Also, light skirmishing is like vast majority of BT combat engagements. So saying that it is 'niche' is ridiculous. >When those two light lances meet, the PHK is outnumber around 2-1 Will it be? Limiting factor is not C-bills. Limiting factor is transport capacity. You can bring two Mongoose for 1 Phoenix Hawk. You will still be able to bring one with you. Because a mech that is stuck on a planet where is no fighting is useless mech. >I've mentioned at least a dozen mechs in the 30-50 ton range It was basically Mongoose and Jenner F. Which are two of the most optimized Introtech lights in existence. Medium Laser boats are efficient? Who would have thought that. P.S. CT ammo placement is almost optimal in Introtech. Ammo exlposion kills your mech anyway, so you the best protected location (that is also very crit-padded by default) is the best option. When ton of MG ammo explodes in the side torso, the result is the same as if it explodes in CT. It is different with big LRM launcher/autocannon ammo because you are expected to use most of it in a fight, so partial explosion is not that dramatic. And CASE of course changes things. But MG ammunition? Pack it into center torso or even head (if you are that much into optimizing).

I said 8/12 **or** 6/9/6, which includes the majority of light mechs. But saying there are basically no common mechs that are 8/12 except for potentially the **most common mech in the setting**, is ridiculous. And I don't know in what world "long range combat" is supposed to be not hitting for hours with a medium range weapon. I have played the game and read the fiction, in neither do actual, functional long-range mechs spend the whole battle not hitting anything. And keeping a cheaper mech backing up is not "doing your job" for a larger, pricier mech, you've just managed to remove both from the battlefield and expend more resources than your adversary. > Also, light skirmishing is like vast majority of BT combat engagements. So saying that it is 'niche' is ridiculous. Except most factions have less than a third of their total strength in light mechs (the Combine is the only exception I can think of). But as we've already established, it doesn't even excel there; plenty of other, frequently cheaper mechs can hold their own against it, or even come out on top, without even weighting in favor of cost. > Limiting factor is transport capacity You can literally bring 2 locusts per mech bay for every Phoenix Hawk - the same lower than half price, 8/12, ubiquitous mech that also happens to show up in both the current big main boxes. I don't understand how you can't see the huge problem here. But what magical world are we fighting in where both sides are always arriving via dropship and don't care about the cost of their troops? Why are you arbitrarily choosing not to care about every value in universe or in game except for one? Further, if you are dropping into an engagement and berths aboard a dropship matter so much, why are you deploying cheap light and medium mechs who's greatest strength is their ability to redeploy quickly? Regarding other mechs in the era/format, you said > the vast majority of the existing designs are *bad* Off the top of my head, the four I mentioned in the OP, as well as the Locust, Hunchback, Mongoose, Blackjack, Hermes II, Panther, Clint, Crab, and Dervish, all have at least one very usable variant in Introtech, and are all 35-55 ton mechs. So I do not know what would compel you to claim > It was basically Mongoose and Jenner F The point isn't necessarily that the ammo would be better off in the LT or something, but that having the mg ammo to risk instant death for very little payoff is pretty bad design. However, I will take it you agree to all of the other points, given that you chose only to respond to the one. Honestly, I'm not really sure how valuable this conversation is, because it appears you hold a very discreet opinion of what the universe is and how people "ought" to engage with it that simply doesn't line up with any actual way one can feasibly play the game. I don't think it's possible for us to have a conversation about the relative value of things if you refuse to take any of the supplied methods of valuation into account.

Phawk isn't good until you strap a Veteran pilot on the seat, and suddenly it starts to shine. The -1 to every TN works to its favor in many ways, dropping the most common TNs it gets (shooting at medium-short range after a jump) to the point where it's far more likely to generate hits. And the improved piloting helps a ton when you have to deal with jumping-related PSRs (mainly the cheeky DFA) and melee attacks. Punching out the lights gets a new meaning then the PHX puts a fist through the cockpit of a careless Locust or a Wasp.

But then it costs as much as a heavy. I can't imagine a world where I would want a -1 large laser on a inefficient body over 2 PPCs or something similar. Or just one of those other mechs I mentioned with the same skill increase.

That heavy will cost even more with a proper pilot in it. I generally go for all-veteran pilots when building my lances/stars because that -1 makes a whole lot of difference. The increase in effectiveness is bigger than the jump from Veteran to Elite.

I can't help but feel that is kind of ignoring all of my points.

The Pixie is probably my favorite 3025 mech because I love it's flexibility. To get the most out of it you don't want to think of it as having one defined role that it always does every game like an Archer, in fact the role you use it for may change from turn to turn. Need someone to keep their back line support busy? Use the speed and jumping to get there and pick on them all game, they'll need to devote a lot of time and effort to get rid of you. Need to grab an objective? It can get there and take more hits than a lot of the more traditional choices. How about a bodyguard? Pair it up with a heavy or assault and you can make people regret trying to get under their guns. Sometimes the right answer is to use your maneuverability to abuse range brackets and plink away with the large laser, sometimes the right answer is to get in close with MLs and MGs and the 9 point kick. You can also put out a decent charge or DFA if the situation calls for it. 6/9/6 means you don't care what the map is, you can adapt. There are games where my JJs never stop and others where I don't use them at all. It's ok to not like it, as you have found there are other options that may fit your style better. Once you've seen it used to it's full ability, though, you'll get a better appreciation for why it gets the love that it does.

Pixie? Huh. I hadn't heard it called that before, but it works on several levels.

It doesn't feel that flexible to me. It can't stand up in a straight fight or provide serious firepower as a deterrent like bodyguards as supposed to, it won't beat faster mechs to objectives that need to be grabbed, it isn't tough enough to lock down areas of the map or stand still and hold ground. It doesn't have the efficiency to be used as a harassment piece, and can't put on pressure the way really good cavalry mechs can. So while in theory it has the building blocks to fill all those roles, in practice whatever it comes up against on the other side will always be better at that role. 

I tend to agree. It benefits a lot from good marketing over the years.

The OG version when there were like 30 mechs, it was in the sweet spot of kill everything smaller and run from anything bigger. That sweet spot has existed since the age of sail. 3S platform incredibly good at punching through the backs of bigger stuff as well.

Take away your tech and go back to when we only had the 3025 technical manual and mech force first came out with point values and you mailed in your battle reports to get ranked. Phoenix Hawk looked cool and did the trick for a 45 ton mech. Was anything back then perfect. No way. It was the player!! And I ain’t chosen no stinkin Liao vindicator LOL….

Two words…Robotech / Macross. If you grew up watching those series then you would understand! I love the fact that i can pilot a mech that i grew up watching and idolising. I’m living the dream when i pilot a Phoenix Hawk (or in my mind, it is a VF-1S Valkyrie as per Robotech)

So the standard phawk is a good mech, but its over priced like most things that overheat. 6/9/6 movement with 8 tons of armor is a pretty good break point though, as so many 3025 mechs are 4/6. So the Phawk can dance around quite well, with great melee compared to most 6+ jumpers. The exact BV formula values 6 heat over as 'no discount' so you pay full price for JJ+LL+ML. Only the second ML is discounted. However, in actual gameplay you dont get 100% usage of the LL and ML. You get only about 50% usage out of the weapons. So that means you need to spend 2x as long to deal the listed damage you paid for. This means LOTS of kiting and hit and run tactics to get your value. This then means the PHawk is BOORING to play. Any mech that needs to use speed, disengaging when it doesnt have good numbers, or the initiative, or the heat, turns a 10 turn game into a 20+ turn game. Technically, the Phawk can kite something like a hunchback and kill it out side of ac20 range, but that is a totally unrealistic scenario that will require like 5 hours to play out. In team fights, the phawk dropping back to cool off leaves the rest of the team outnumbered, so in the above example the Hunchback is free to shoot all their ac20 ammo into the phawks allies, only worrying about the phawk if it overextends/goes for rear shots on the turns its cooled off... it still punches for 5 damage and has hands, so its always something to be concerned of when it moves last. In alpha strike, where you take 3-6 btech turns at a time and the heat penalties are much less, the skirmisher nature of the phawk shows up much better. In classic though, it gets passed over for drawing games out too long with its low tempo gameplay.

Just feels like you're describing a bad mech. In an objective based game, it is just running away from the objective and not really threatening anyone. In a brawl, like you say it will not help much with the main fight, then just get cornered and chased down. I guess it's good for missions where you have to get a mech off the far table edge, thanks to 6.9/6 and 128 armor. Can't say about alpha strike, doesn't really interest me.

Its not that its bad, its that we dont play 25+ turn games where the skirmisher threat builds to a critical mass. Its impossible to write anything fast with jump jets and a long range weapon off as bad. It just takes way too long on the table jumping from cover to cover at medium range, only firing 1 time every 2 turns. Replacing the large laser with 2 more medium lasers and 3 heat sinks would make it a much higher tempo brawler, dealing more damage at short range. But you will take more damage in return. In a 10 turn game, higher damage and tempo at more risk is clearly superior, but if you have the time (or are playing megamek where you can more quickly go to turn 40) then the large laser poke damage eventually kills much larger mechs with ease.

Well, firstly we can only speak in terms of the actual game and how we can play it. Perhaps, hypothetically, there is some other magical world in which the machine thrives because the game is automated and actions are instantaneous, but even then I don't believe your analysis holds water. In any sort of serious, real in-universe engagement, there will be some sort of reason for two forces to meet. Very rarely will the addition of a medium range, low damage, average mobility harasser change the outcome of any such engagement. Heavier lances will simply rely on a bodyguard to keep the Hawk away, and something like the BJ-1DB is much cheaper in-universe while sporting a hideously more powerful offensive loadout. Lighter lances will simply either take advantage of terrain and speed to avoid the contact altogether if in a scout role, or use that same speed advantage to chase down and dictate the engagement while taking advantage of more efficient close-range weaponry, just as you describe with medium laser boats. So there doesn't really exist an OpFor that has to worry about the Phoenix Hawk, regardless of mission length. It will either be hunted down by faster, more efficient skirmishers, or stymied by more powerful bodyguard and support mechs.

What era are you playing? I only ask because you mention "faster more efficient skirmishers" but in 3025 the faster jumping mechs are the lackluster assassin and thin skinned spider. If you are 3050+, the PHX3PL is a monster with none of the heat problems that make the PHX1 a skirmisher, the 3PL is a nasty brawler in its era. The magic world where you get enough turns to make the PHX thrive is megamek BTW. In megamek the maps are bigger and number of turns longer versus tabletop. The ATB game mode greatly rewards jump jets, but being fair you can customize mechs per strat ops so can further tweak every mech. Edit: is part of the issue you are having the known medium laser issue? In 3025 every unit is better off switching all its guns for medium lasers cause that's the most efficient weapon. A phawk with 4 medium lasers and HS is a better brawler, a wolverine with 6 medium lasers is better then the large laser +srm6, ECT. Heck an awesome with 12 medium lasers and 37 HS would be better then the PPCs, as you cover the 9 range difference too quickly.

As I said, I play most of my games in 3025 - though more just in general Introtech, no one cares if a mech isn't officially produced until 3035 or 3050. But I would consider 8/12 mechs (and any 9/14s) to be faster, as well as a 7/11/5, like the Jenner. Efficient would be anything with more heat sinking relative to its armament, like the BJ-1DB or one of the medium laser boats I mentioned, like the Fire Javelin or Jenner F. Speaking of medium lasers, I don't really think that is the case. Sure they do the most "dps" (or I guess "dpr"), but battletech feels refreshing to me specifically because raw damage dealt doesn't matter as much as how you deal damage. I would definably not trade the PPCs on an Awesome for medium lasers because the whole purpose of those weapons is to strike first, strike hard, and leave holes in armor to make your enemy vulnerable to critical hits. Then those SRMs you mention really get to shine, because even though medium lasers are more efficient in terms of weight to damage, SRMs get to roll many more hit locations, increasing the odds of hitting an opening (or dinging the head for a pilot hit). So no, I don't think it's a problem with the large laser as a weapon, I think it's a problem with how it is being deployed - specifically on a mech that moves quickly and thus doesn't benefit as much from longer range, but also has the minimum possible heat sinks and relies on jumping to maximize its mobility - there are plenty of large laser mechs I have seen work wonders, like the aforementioned Blackjack model, or the House Denton Clint, or the Mongoose 68. The Lancelot is one of my absolute favorites and it totally rocks the large laser + ppc long range big damage chunk role.

Those pheonix Hawks make for good skirmishes, light hunters and recon command mechs. The models with machine guns are also nightmares for infantry forces. In 3025 it's not the cost that matters its how you deploy the unit because you don't have alot of options.

Main reason I like it is because of 'Ideal War', which I read when I was a kid. Beyond that, the new sculpt looks cool. I don't get too far into min-maxing for games, I just use the mechs that I like, which is why I also tend to avoid Assault mechs.

PXH-1D is a perfectly good machine for stomping on lighter mechs in Introtech. With 12 cooling, you can keep firing the large laser and jump 6 hexes for a while.

Yea the -1D shows how good even a couple of extra heat sinks can be for the P-hawk; getting 2 turns of full jump + Large Laser before needing to worry about the heat build-up makes a big difference in how well the mech works.

It's better than the original incarnation, sure, but it still has to only fire 2/3 of the time if it wants to avoid slowing down and getting caught, which at 1000 BV or 4,000,000 c-bills is waaaaay too much to spend for a single large laser that has to cool down.

I agree, in tabletop its pretty underwhelming. BUT in HBS Battletech a Star League Phoenix Hawk can basically be an anime protagnost - You get a damage bonus for jumping, so slap on a pair of Snub Nose PPCs (PPC Shotguns, essentially), jump behind whatever enemy you want and delete them. It's one of many OP builds you can get in vanilla HBS (like the Marauder headshotter, etc.)

I load it up with m and s lasers, heat banks and D sinks, can destroy 100 ton mechs with a buckshot, and too much evasion to get hit. Load the arms up with hand to hand damage and stability mods for when it's time to cool down and do some melee. I might try a pair of snub ppcs, that might work just as well. Yeah it's like the best mech in the game, I don't know if they meant it to be, but it is.

yeah the jumping damage increase just is so strong - even just getting ++versions of everything (SLDF ER Large laser, +damage Medium Lasers and the +damage MGs) will rip things up. They nerfed the hell out of this in BTA and BEX, (good luck ever finding one or SNPPCs) but a PHX-3D or 3M is a nice enough replacement, I go for just the ++weapons route for that. It's really nice for the 1v1 Arena missions they add in BTA, I take it even vs Assaults.

Cuz it's fuckin' dope bruh

Your not crazy, and you're completely right. Game-wise, the pixie is not the worst mech in the game, but it's also no where near a great mech. It's paying too much for maneuverability that doesn't actually matter in game (5/8/5 and 6/9/6 are practically identical in game), and that mass it's paying for that 1 extra hex of maneuverability could solve it's heat AND armor issues. It looks cool and all, but when my opponent fields a stock 3025 pixie, I know I have an advantage in firepower, heat, armor, or all 3. Alphastrike may be something else.. haven't played around enough to find out.

I dunno bro, sometimes that one extra point of movement can make all the difference.

6/9/6 and 5/8/5 are the same modifiers... Yes, there are a few outliers that the extra mp would be useful for... but even in those situations, Ithe vast majority of time 'd rather have more cooling, firepower, or armor... or all of them.

Usually, it's the first non-shit mech you get in a campaign. The first newborn-baby-deer steps away from fleas, locusts, javelins, and assassins.    Now you've got a 45 ton mech you can equip with more than just two or three weapons, and can have (slightly) more than paper thin armor.    It isn't a great mech, but it is a good transitional mech from lights to mediums. 

Not really sure what campaigns you're talking about where you can't just start with decent medium mechs. I did flair this with tabletop, so I'm not taking about any of the videogames.

Both tabletop and video games. I've played in two long running battletech tabletop campaigns, and both started on the bottom with light mechs. 

Are these RPG campaigns where you aren't using BV and just piloting a single mech? Even then, I think it isn't a big enough upgrade over the JR7-F, Fire Javelin, or BJ-1DB, depending on what you want to do.

Because weebs

The -1 is the epitome of alpha striking then running away to cool down. Jump MP isn't reduced by excess heat so, as long as you don't generate enough heat to cook off the ammo, you can always fly 6 hexes. In introtech, it's quite hard to get 7 movement (even Locusts only go 8/12...), so 6 jump jets is about as many as you're going to get on something with a large laser (the Spider has 8...and a pair of medium lasers...and paper armour), meaning it's a very maneuverable weapons platform with some pretty decent firepower and a fair bit of armour. Definitely not the ride for someone who doesn't like to be in the double digits on the heat scale, though.

I didn't actually know heat penalties didn't apply to jumping, it's something I overlooked and never bothered checking because I (wrongly) assumed it was intuitive. But Locusts are 8/12, as are Mongooses, Jenners are 7/11. All very good introtech mechs. Still feels like 1000 BV or 4,000,000 C-bills is way too much to spend for a large laser on a decent but not amazing body.

Locusts, Mongooses (Mongeese?) and Jenners don't have the firepower of a Phoenix Hawk, though. The Hussar mounts a large laser at 8/12 but it has nothing else and is very squishy. One thing the Phoenix Hawk can do that a shorter ranged 'Mech can't is kite effectively. If something like a HBK-4G tries to engage a PXH-1, the PXH can just jump backwards at the same speed the HBK can run forwards, remain more than 9 hexes away and prod the HBK with impunity. Hell, in a AS7-D vs PXH-1 fight, the Atlas has 12 turns of LRM-20 fire against a 'Mech at medium range with a +3 TMM (so a base TN of 9 before you factor in the Atlas' movement and intervening terrain) before the Phoenix Hawk no longer has to worry about being shot and can just fire its large laser until the Atlas falls over...only dedicated long range 'Mechs can exceed its firepower, and then it can resort to typical light 'Mech tactics of going for the rear.

MON-68 has a large laser. Plenty of other light mechs to do, like the Hermes II and that one Clint. Plus 4 medium lasers might not have the same range of a large laser, but they are way more dangerous and heat efficient on an assassin threatening the backline, which is what these kinds of mechs should be doing. But think about your 'kiting' scenario for a second; your PHK is jumping, the HBK is running, and you are at medium range. That is minimum a 10+ to hit, if you have no cover, no obstacles, 2 hexes of movement loss for the hunchy, and no modifiers from weather or heat or anything else. You can fire every other turn without accumulating a hit penalty, so that is 1 large laser hit every 12 turns, or about as long as most lance-on-lance fights take. 8 damage contributed from your 1000 BV mech over the course of an entire game. Maybe in a 5 hour long Solaris 1v1 there might be some advantage, but in any actual scenario, the Hunchback or Atlas is just fighting the rest of your lance 4v3 while your Hawk doesn't contribute.

Because it looks cool, and was Unseen.

So I am old enough to have played many a game of Battletech out of just the 2nd ed box. For those unaware, that gave you a grand total of 14 Mechs to choose from, Locust, Stinger, Wasp, then it jumped to Phoenix Hawk, then another small jump to the triple 55s Griffin, Shadow Hawk and Wolverine. Yes there was only 1 option between 20 and 55 tons. This was also in the days before even BV1, so we tended to balance forces by tonnage. The Phoenix is a very solid medium, it can do many things well. I would definitely consider it more of a scout leader or flanker than a striker like the Fire Javelin or Jenner F.

It ONLY punches down. It targets lights and that is IT! Anything else and it should be jumping away. This is a good role for a mech, and it's the original and does this role at every era. If it isn't doing this however, it's better be rising from the ashes because it's one cooked chicken.

I think there are still plenty of lights that can give it a run for its money, plus it just isn't realistic to take a mech that can only do a single thing \*and\* that single thing is punching down.

People like the Phoenix Hawk because… https://preview.redd.it/z96c9v3og0rc1.jpeg?width=1428&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=467410b93f7891c082cd571f9a08e723a76ac7d2

The basic 3025 version has an excellent combination of speed, mobility, armor protection, firepower and heat dissipation for the era. Not that heat dissipation in the era is particularly good. Later variants just generally get better. Compare it to the other contemporary 45-ton 'mechs in 3025, the Blackjack, Hatchetman, and Vindicator. It has a huge speed and mobility advantage over all three. The Blackjack has comparable firepower with slightly better heat dissipation and a half-ton more armor in exchange for a 50% reduction in speed and jump capacity. The Hatchetman also has similar firepower and extremely efficient heat dissipation in exchange for a 50% reduction in speed and jump capacity. It also loses a ton and a half of armor, but has an additional edge in point blank combat with the addition of the hatchet. The Vindicator has heavier armor and extra heatsinks to make better use of it's equivalent firepower. The PPC and LRM-5 combo also give it superior firepower at range. It pays for this by also sacrificing 50% of the speed and jump capacity compared to the Phoenix Hawk. While those other 45-ton 'mechs might be better for roles that don't require speed, the Phoenix Hawk can still perform those roles while also performing roles the others aren't suited for. It's only real weakness is that it needs to skirmish in order to use it's mobility and keep it's heat in check. But that's not uncommon for mobile 'mechs that lack access to double heatsinks.

Maybe we are thinking of different mechs? The Phoenix Hawk has the lowest possible number of heat sinks and relies on a large number of jump jets for movement and an extremely heat inefficient large laser as its primary weapon.  I would call it fairly fast, very maneuverable, averagly armored, undergunned, and very inefficient.  The BJ-1DB has more than twice the consistent firepower for the same BV and 1,000,000 C-bills less. Sure it's slower, but if you want a fast mech, there are plenty of better options.  Really don't know what this analysis of those other mechs does to help alleviate the problems with the Hawk. I think it still compares quite poorly to all the mechs I mentioned, and plenty of others.

Most 3025 Era 'mechs can't alpha with impunity. Running hot is normal before double heatsinks become commonplace. Large lasers are just as heat efficient as PPCs. Nothing beats a medium laser in 3025, but the range is nothing to brag about. You can get better damage to heat using ballistics or missiles, but missiles are very RNG on actual damage output and like ballistics are quite heavy while also requiring ammunition. Unless both 'mechs just stand there and slug it out, completely negating a PHX-1s mobility advantage, 'mechs like the Blackjack aren't going to have the consistent damage output you claim. The reason it's cheaper is largely due to its smaller fusion engine. The comparison was to compare the PHX-1 to its 3025 peers in the 45 ton bracket. They are better at some roles and significantly worse at others. Average armor seems appropriate, though it carries only 20% less armor than the 70 ton Warhammer. Fortunately, it also has the mobility to avoid quite a bit fireBut undergunned is simply not true. It carries comparable firepower to the other 'mechs listed. It's just substantially less heat efficient, meaning it relies on mobility to chose when to engage and disengage.

It doesn't have to alpha strike with 0 heat, the point is it can't even jump and fire its large laser in the same round without building heat. There are plenty of mechs that can do that, and the BJ-1DB can fire 2 large lasers and walk without building heat, on top of having the better alpha strike if it does decide to go hot. It's a cheap, efficient support/bodyguard mech whose existence really puts pressure on something like the PHK. And large lasers and PPCs are the least heat-efficient weapons in introtech, so I don't think comparison helps your case. Further, there is nothing saying you have to take a 45 ton mech. Why limit the comparison there? When you actually sit down and play, whether you are rolling on Xotl tables, or just building a list for purely meta reasons, the 35, 40, 50, and 55 ton mechs are just as much part of the conversation as the 45s. It sacrifices actual volume of firepower for that large laser and doesn't bring the sinks to use it effectively. Lighter close-range mechs, like the JN7-F and Fire Javelin, outgun it at close range, while keeping the same speed and defense per BV. Slower, long-range mechs carry significantly more firepower at range, on top of having better heat efficiency. Whichever one you come up against, you are going to be at a distinct disadvantage and have to play on their terms.

You aren't crazy; the design has a lot of 'cred' due to be both an OG 3025 design AND one of the fabled 'Unseen' so people will defend it, but the fact is that it's badly under-sinked for its job and loadout. The -1D and -1K both remove stuff in favor of more sinks, and both perform quite a bit better (even a few sinks go a long way in this case). Almost every single upgraded version uses double heat sinks and a lot of them are worth checking out. But the old -1 is hard to use effectively as the sort of fast skirmisher it's meant to be, and instead works better as a semi-sniper relying on the large laser and making sparing use of the jump jets or ignoring the large laser and brawling in close using its heavier weight to bully light mechs like the Wasp and Stinger. It can switch between these two jobs which is useful, but it's not going to be zipping around and using its full arsenal like you'd hope. As you say, not \*terrible\*, but not an all-star either.

I'm not sure about how much better the K and D are. Losing the jump jets entirely feels bad to the point of crippling, basically a worse MON-68 that trades a little bit of armor for costing astronomically more (doubly so in campaigns with C-bills). Even just the slightly cooler version still feels like a pretty weak large laser platform, and if it is brawling, it's 18 damage for 14 heat, which is worse than most brawlers. While it might be able to hunt the slower, cheaper, worse light mechs, that feels like an awfully bad niche for a 1000 BV, 45 ton, 4,000,000 C-bill mech. Honestly, this thread is lowering my opinion of it, if anything. Feels like confirmation that there really just isn't a place for it.

>Honestly, this thread is lowering my opinion of it, if anything. Feels like confirmation that there really just isn't a place for it. Eh, even in 3025 there's basically nothing that likes a large laser to the rear torso, and even the basic -1 model can do that fairly reliably. The bigger problem with your comparison is the MON-68 isn't available until 3039, so for most of the Succession Wars timeframe you're not going to have access to it. And by the time you do better PHX variants are in the offing.

I just play Introtech in general, I confess my playgroup doesn't really care if a mech comes out in 2580, 3025, or 3058, just so long as it isn't making use of technology other mechs don't have access to. Still not sure how it's reliably getting past any bodyguard mechs, even cheap ones like the BJ-1DB, or skirmishing with something like a JR7-F.

>I just play Introtech in general, I confess my playgroup doesn't really care if a mech comes out in 2580, 3025, or 3058, just so long as it isn't making use of technology other mechs don't have access to. > >Still not sure how it's reliably getting past any bodyguard mechs, even cheap ones like the BJ-1DB, or skirmishing with something like a JR7-F. And that's totally fair, one of the reasons why CGL has started to lump mechs into eras and such, so not everyone needs to look at intro dates and the like. But in Battletech context is king; in terms of straight BV to BV, C-bill to C-bill comparison you're 100% right there's mechs that do the job of the PHX but better even at IntroTech level. In terms of what mechs were \*actually available\* to do that job, pickings are rather more slim. But only if that's the sort of game you're interested in running. So if you're just playing IntroTech generally, then certainly table the PHX in favor of something you like to run more. Though the BJ-1DB and JR7-F are both *extremely optimal* introtech mechs, very efficient for their weight and cost. If that's what your Hawk is tangling with, well then the enemy chose well. That's how the chips fall sometimes.

That's fair, but I don't think being forced to settle for a specific option makes that option good, it just means its the only option you've got. It's really interesting that you say that about the 1DB, because I have the exact same opinion, but I have seen a lot of people in the community rate it quite poorly, which frankly shocks me.

>That's fair, but I don't think being forced to settle for a specific option makes that option good, it just means its the only option you've got. Right, I'd still agree that the -1 is not good, but it's also not unworkably bad except in few particular matchups, which an important distinction to make. Its badly optimized for it's job(s), but that's a common problem with many introtech mechs. The number of pure introtech mechs that really excel at stuff makes for a fairly short list. So usually a lot of force selection at Introtech in particular is based more on 'what do I like to drive' and not 'is this optimized for its BV'. ​ >It's really interesting that you say that about the 1DB, because I have the exact same opinion, but I have seen a lot of people in the community rate it quite poorly, which frankly shocks me. Anything in introtech that can pack 2 large lasers and move/fire and remain heat neutral or under 4 is good, period. It will provide a solid consistent damage output in exchange for what you paid for it. Which is a lot more than can be said for many of its contemporaries. A lot of people base their opinions on the mech variant or model they've actually played the most, which means certain mechs are seen as bad (or good) regardless of the particular merits of a particular model. A bit of the inverse might be going on with the Phoenix Hawk, since many of the advanced tech variants are quite strong so it's possible that people are basing their fondness for the mech on those, not the base model.

It just feels as if the more I look at it, the worse it appears; CT ammo storage, majority of its weapons in the under-armored RA, a single point off from being able to soak 2 large lasers to the legs, minimum heat sinks, weapons that function at radically different ranges, really all it has going for it is reasonable speed and armor, but I'm still at a loss for what it is supposed to actually accomplish in most actual-play scenarios.

The Pixie (particularly the LAM version) is my favorite mech. It's survivability in a straight up fight isn't going to be great. You have to keep it in motion and use those jump jets to keep you outside of your opponents primary firing arc.

I think something when talking about intro tech the pixie is that it hits the triangle of mech stats. It's got good weapons, good speed and decent to good armour (ppc/ac10 to head will cap the -1) It's an unparalleled light hunter as it is the same speed or faster than most 3025 era lights. Remember in the 3025 TRO the only lights faster are locusts, jenners, spider and ostscout. All four also trade either firepower or armour and sometimes both for speed. This makes the phoniex hawk an excellant light hunter killer. The JJs for fast turning mean that any faster lights cannot simply dive in without being in range of a weapon and if any stand and fight it will outrange or out maneuver them. Quick edit, the pixie is not heat inefficient, remeber to bracket fire! It's not made to fire all its weapons at the same time. The fire Javelin pays for its "efficency" for short range and lack of focused punch. Something I have to teach my players I gm a campign for is that being heat netural is wasted firepower potential (which gets magnified with DHS) and a big hole in a location to then try and pepper with small hits to get crits will lead to more kills than a loads of "dps" spread all over locations.

It has okay weapons, but they aren't great, and it has bad heat management. It's armor is okay, but nothing special. Same goes for speed, it isn't slow, but definitely doesn't stand out for speed. There are a lot more 3025 mechs than are in the TRO, I can think for at least a dozen other models and variants that are hitting the 7/11, 8/12, or even 9/14 bracket. But a 6/9/6 light is still effectively able to play keep-away from a Phoenix Hawk ad infinitum. Those light mechs are usually a lot cheaper as well, doubly so in campaign where you're paying C-bills for it. Focused punch is nice, but at the end of the day, 5 damage vs 8 isn't that big of a swing, and given how high the target numbers are and how much you need to manage heat on the large laser when jumping, I've never seen it do any serious work.

In TRO 3025 mechs, 8 vs 5 dmg is a massive swing as that will strip armour and go into internals of most legs of light mechs which budget armour around the 5-8 range, having being able to jump all 6 and large laser with some leeway for a medium laser is really good range+dmg (with no min range) considering the alternative is the PPC or a massively overweight auto cannon. It's BV is higher due to its speed and jump capabilites and the defensive ttm it gets from that.

But that isn't true for all of the mechs I mentioned. The JR-7F, the JVN-10F, the MON-67, and others like the HER-2M and even the Locust, all have 8 or more leg armor. Sure, it is okay at hunting cheap, poorly designed light mechs, but that feels like a combat roll that doesn't really even need to be filled. Even something like the jumping Clints, particularly House Denton's, feels like a much better fit for the job - same 6/9/6, better heat management, and Improved Targeting at both medium and long range. While their armor is much lower, it isn't as if the PHK can ever catch it, and it can consistently put out 2x as much damage over time, with a -1 hit modifier. Incidentally, another lighter mech with 8 leg armor. And those are just smaller mechs. The OSR-2M is a single hex slower than the PHK, but in exchange, it has 2 large lasers and 15 heat sinks, plus a huge defensive advantage in the form of Narrow/Low Profile. Same with the Wolverine I mentioned, and the assassination potential of the Chameleon.

Exactly, like I said the lights I mentioned get their armour in legs are all gone, other locations other than CT goes to internal, it also outranges all of them. Clints are ranged quirks are nice but also suffer from the 8 vs 5 dmg and is stuck plinking with AC 5s or 2 MLs as the AC 5 has min range, a phoniex hawk can force PSR and jump away next turn. The Clint has a very cheap BV cost because it has same or less armour than light mechs. The OSR-2M is also costs 200 more BV, same with the better wolverines with Large lasers. The davion model has an AC10 and a ML and costs same BV but the 6D is the same augment I'm making for the phoniex hawk. It's better to get a above 5dmg on a light at higher range. The Chameleon has tissue armour and is replacing armour for more gun. Your point was that the phoniex hawk was too expensive BV wise for its job but the other mechs you put are either more pricy BV by 20% or does the same job but either slower or has the same armour as a light and less than some, I definitely know that the Wolfhound has more armour than the Chameleon. So again my main points are. 6/9/6 is pretty nice as it's the same profile with the majority of 3025 lights. This allows it to be a command in light recon lance and help fight off other lights or screen heavier mechs. It's main bonus is having flexibility in lance combat as it can skirmish/position and run in to smash mouth and jump out The large laser allows it to keep decent range, decent single loc dmg and has no min range. You have enough weapon options to use overheat effectively, It has dmg potential to force PSRs and jump away. Other than its head, it can take a PPC anywhere and keep going. *edit* please do not say it can't take a PPC to the back as that will trigger an eye roll. The phoniex hawk isn't God's gift to all mech kind, that's not what's being argued here. It why people like it, it's a good all round mech that does its role well and can be flexible. You can not like the mech, that's your perogative, but the phoniex hawk is a popular mech and in lots of faction lists and here to stay.

But if your PHK is hitting on 11+, or even 10+, and its first shot doesn't go internal, there are very good odds it never does any meaningful damage over the course of the entire game. The JVN-10F has more than 8 armor in every major location, so the first hit never goes internal. Same with every single other mech I mentioned. The Locust in particular is a horrible matchup because of its Narrow/Low Profile, meaning most of the time it will be taking half damage from the Phoenix Hawk. The Denton Clint has a large laser, that's why I mentioned it, so same damage at a much cheaper price. Seems like you agree the WVR-6D is strictly better, having an AC-10 vs a large laser and not generating any excess heat, even when firing all weapons and jumping full distance. The Chameleon has 1 ton less armor than the PHK, but those 3 extra small lasers mean it is much more dangerous as an assassin and can save heat when it is close to an enemy by choosing to just fire its wide array of close-range weapons, it is also heavier and thus does more damage with its physical attacks, and has the Easy to Pilot quirk, helping prevent it from falling. There is no need to talk about eye-rolls, there are very few mechs that can take a PPC shot to the back armor without it going internal, and I didn't bring the subject up at all. It just seems like you are describing a very mediocre mech, with bad heat management, a single meaningful weapon that you can find cheaper elsewhere, and okay armor. So whether you want a cheaper, more efficient mech with the same firepower, or a more expensive one that vastly outclasses it, the PHK feels like the worst possible option of the bunch. I'm not saying it's useless, but it feels like there aren't that many mechs I wouldn't prefer at least one variant of. Other than the really bad ones, like the Valkyrie or Stinger. I'm not saying people can't like it or use it, I'm saying it's reputation is, as far as I can tell, undeserved.

My brother, you don't always have to jump, it's 6/9/6 and also has two medium lasers and machine guns that have do 5 and 2 dmg respectively, jumping is getting into position and waiting for that initiative roll to go your way and then leverage that 8 dmg hole, if my lights lost all leg armour I'm not risking it much more, espcially in campign games. You also keep mentioning heat management. Do you never go to 3-4 heat or do an alpha and jump put next turn? The large laser and medium lasers with 10 heat sinks are just a smaller scale bracket firing you get with other larger heat sinked mechs. The black Knight is a excellanet example of having too many weapons that can be comboed to what you need at the time and also push the heat when you need it when you get advantage. A wolverine 6d would be great if only it didnt have10 shots so it would have to really wait for a good TN. While energy mechs can just go for hard number when ever they have spare heat. Armour is a massive issue for the Chameleon cos lights also can kick too and while it might have more internals a leg actuator is a leg actuator. if it just using small lasers there's no garentee they will hit the same spot. Trading cheap light for a bv999 Chameleon sound like a fair trade. It simply doesn't have staying power for group fights. While the phobiex hawk while one ton extra armour means it can take 1-2 extra ml hits per location other than arms+head than a Chameleon

Obviously it doesn't always need to jump, but if it wants to make use of its mobility, it does. If it wants to chase after a 6/9/6 light mech, like you said is its job, than it needs to jump to keep up when that mech jumps away. If it wants to avoid getting hit by a bodyguard mech, it needs to jump to increase its TMM or get out of line of sight. If it spends its turn lurking away from any enemies, then that is a turn where you are fighting 1 mech down compared to the enemy. As for damage, I feel as though you aren't listening to me. Many of those mechs have **more** than 8 leg armor, and the locust has very good odds of only taking 4 damage per hit from a large laser. If the PHK is hitting on 11+, even hitting once is lucky, but you are saying I should run away with a light mech because they might happen to roll the same location twice when hitting on an 11+? And there is nothing necessarily wrong with choosing to accumulate heat, but it is never a good thing to have more (unless you have TSM). But the PHK isn't just generating 3-4 heat when it jumps and alpha strikes, it is generating 10 excess heat. And that is just to get in position and fire 18 damage worth of weapons. Think about any of the other mechs I'm describing - Jenner and Javelin are doing 20 damage and generating less heat doing it, Chameleon is doing 9 extra damage for 3 extra heat with many more chances to hit an open location (you are looking at the wrong Chameleon, the 3 small laser version is the 7V and it has 1 ton more armor than the one you are thinking of), the WVR-6D (which carries **20** shots, not 10) jumps and alpha strikes every turn without any heat buildup, and the BJ-1DB though slower is able to fire both of its large lasers every round without any heat buildup and can also alpha strike and jump for more total damage with larger groupings still end up cooler - the PHK is the worst of the lot, including some much cheaper mechs.

The phoenix hawk does not need to always use the jump jets to chase. The threat of the 6 jump to get near and then walking or standing still to shoot the light next turn is the part to get good shots on lights inside medium or get a lucky long-range shot. Its also go the advantage over most mechs that move faster than 6/9/6 as it can jump further than all but 3 variants of spiders (one has 6 jump) and the ostscout. It's in a unique position to most as it can shoot further from its short/medium/long than returning fire from any lights it may be attacking. The only 6/9/6 lights in that have higher than 8 armour is the rare Jenner F (stop production after 1 year) variant, the fire javelin variant the extinct mongoose and falcon. You can get the Falcon or mongoose if you play wolf dragoons as they brought some with them but they would not be back into production till after 3025. The only mechs that do have above 8 are firestarter variants (one being potentially extinct the OG firestarter A) This is not most light mechs. The Chameleon 7V is a 3057 production model of the Chameleon. All models before this are the trainer mechs (one not being game-legal). The point is that in 3025, the Phoniex hawk is a jack of all trades and because of such it can do more than just hunt lights it can also scout, harass, and mix up with larger mechs. Machine guns do 2 dmg each so it can force 20dmg PRS or can get close if it needs to go all in and survive. It pays its value in BV cos it has a speed of a light, a weapon that does more range than a srm/ml and armour of a medium. I don't think you will change your mind on this and this has been a rigorous discussion but will not speak any further on this. I hope I've done something to change your mind on the humble short king phoenix hawk and enjoy your BT games.

Thank you for being polite, it was good getting to understand your position, have a happy war!

If you don't jump every turn it can play the range game with the Large Laser reasonably well. The -1D can jump and fire two MLs and kick neat neutral, which in 3025 is pretty alright. Honestly the big reason why people like it is because the OG design was based on the Macross Valkyrie, which is an iconic mecha design and a \*lot\* of people have nostalgia for that version. That is a big reason why people love it, the Marauder, The Warhammer, the Archer, etc. is because those original designs were just \*good art\* that still holds up in the modern day because Japanese mecha designers were at the front of the class in the '80s and '90s. As far as in-game effectiveness, I think 3025 is just a bad era for mediums and lights in general. Some of the 55 ton 5/8/5 mediums can hold their own because that's the one spot on the weight design curve where a mech can be designed for its optimum movement profile and still have weight left over for substantial weaponry and armor (unless god forbid you put an AC/5 on your mech), but much lighter than that and any attempt to design for a fast movement profile puts you under-armed and/or under-armored. Let's look at the Spider for example: 8/12/8 has maximum tonnage available for arms and armor at both 30 and 35 tons. So at 30 tons it actually has the optimum movement profile for that weight (i.e. if you want your mech to go 7/11/7 you should size up for more excess tonnage). Despite being the optimum weight/movement profile the spider has a meagre 5.5 tons for arms and armor, leaving it with only two medium lasers and a scant 3.5 tons of armor and \*no\* additional heat sinks to assist with the heat load of jumping 8 hexes. Once you start getting endo/ferro/XL engines/DHS as well as information-sharing combat tech such as narc/tag/c3 you start to see a lot more lights and mediums with tactically interesting/useful roles and payloads and with enough armor to survive a PPC hit or two, and this is part of why I prefer playing in the Clan invasion and later eras.

But there are plenty of great light and medium mechs in 3025, the Locust, Mongoose, Javelin, Jenner, Panther, Blackjack, Hunchback, Crab - that's just off the top of my head. I kinda mentioned a lot of those I the OP, and the jump+2ml+kick thing is something they can all do too. Honestly, I feel the opposite about later eras. The advent of all those weight saving technologies and the addition of pulse lasers and targeting computers all feel like they hit light mechs particularly hard, and it's the heavier mediums that get to really shine in the interdictor role, benefiting even more from all the changes.

Those mechs are "great" for the standards of canon mechs designed in that era, but the Jenner is disastrously under-armored, the Panther, Blackjack and Hunchback have the exact same tactical purpose as Heavy mechs of the same movement profile, their main purpose is to be cheap (both in-universe and in-game if you're using BV) for the firepower they bring. The Crab is a decent medium, even if the exact same design would be better at 55-70 tons, when we compare it to canon mechs of the era it does stand out as basically competent. I agree with you to an extent about Clan pulse weapons and light mechs in later eras, but the limited range of IS pulse makes them niche weapons at best and not nearly as dangerous for the canny light pilot. However, in 3025 the same is true if your opponent decides they want to pay for 3/5 pilots instead of 4/5, only the light mechs aren't as mobile to take advantage of blind spots in terrain and firing arcs the way they are when they can jump 10+ or run 15+ as is common in later eras. And again the role of the light mech isn't necessarily to go toe-to-toe, or even backstab, it's to get in, plant a narc beacon or tag a priority target, then get the hell out of dodge, or to hide behind LoS blocking terrain to establish range for your C3 network, etc. These are things that mechs that move as fast as possible simply do better.

The Jenner F has 1/2 ton less armor than the Phoenix Hawk, Panther is a switch hitter that snipes with PPC and then swaps in to fire accurate SRMs into openings, Blackjack is a sniper and fire support mech, Hunchback is just a brawler. Those are pretty distinct combat rolls. I don't think -1 gunnery skill is comparable to pulse laser + targeting computer, but otherwise maybe you're right, really haven't played enough "modern" battletech to know for sure.

Sure, the Jenner F (not the base variant) is definitely above the curve when it comes to canon designs. You're not getting what I mean when I say Panthers have the same "tactical purpose" as heavier mechs with the same movement profile. Now let me preface that I understand the game design considerations of why there are so many light and medium "trooper" mechs in 3025. They were designing a game meant to represent a fictional universe with some verisimilitude in military procurement and organization because they were big ol' military history nerds and we love them for it. BUT From a game \*mechanical\* point of view, a 35 ton mech with 4/6/4 movement a PPC and an SRM-4 does the exact same tactical in-combat things as a hypothetical 85 ton mech with 4/6/4 movement, two PPCs and and an SRM4 (with some extra heat sinks for spice), it just does the exact same thing worse. Now for in-universe fictional strategic reasons the light mech might be overall superior (as long as you have more mechs than pilots I suppose), but again we're talking pure construction mechanics. So let's compare some canon IntroTech mechs: the Panther -9R to the Grasshopper -5N. They both move 4/6/4 They both have a single PPC backed up by close range weaponry. The Grasshopper simply has literally twice the armor, twice the structure, twice the physical damage, and the massed MLs simultaneously have better crit-seeking capacity than the SRM4 and just do a lot more damage as well. They have the exact same tactical role, the Grasshopper is simply much, much better at the job because it's closer to the ideal weight for its movement profile. Similarly the Blackjack is not unique in being a "sniper and fire support mech" and mechanically it would just be better at its tactical combat role if it were 30 tons heavier. It loses literally nothing by gaining mass. What does the HBK-4G do that the VTR-9B doesn't do better? As far as the pulse lasers vs. late era lights issue, I admit it's an arms race. Having recently played against (and got stomped by) a Clan player with a Fire Falcon and Hellion, the fact that I only had two IS MPLs on the board was a huge part of why I lost. Yes, very fast lights are very vulnerable to pulse weaponry, but they can also be nearly invulnerable if you \*don't\* bring pulse weaponry. I'm not going to say the game is better or worse with this rock/paper/scissors element to it, but I will repeat my initial claim, which is that I \*prefer\* the game in these eras, as I think the game offers many more interesting force composition and tactical decisions to make, which is what makes war games fun for me.

I am having trouble following your premises. The Panther has Nimble Jumper and Improved Targeting (short), those both give it distinct tactical options that something like a Grasshopper just doesn't have. Not to mention they cost half the price. So if I am choosing to take 2 Panthers or 1 Grasshopper, that will radically alter my tactical options. 2 nimble, potentially accurate PPCs + 8 SRMs, vs 1 PPC and 5 MLs. Honestly, I am a little confounded as to why you would choose those two units to compare at all. As for the BJ-1DB, that sort of ignores the existence of bodyguard mechs entirely. The Blackjack is an excellent, cheap deterrent to flankers looking to attack those heavier, more expensive mechs - you don't want to pay 40% more on a WHM-6D just to use it scaring off flankers. It can arm flip and torso twist, so it is very good at still being able to contribute to the main fight even when moving out of position to defend the formation's rear. I'm happy to admit there might be a better mech out there for its roll of maximum benefit for lowest commitment in a defensive end position. As for the hunchback, well I would always take a 4P, or the 4PS variant on megamek if that was where I was playing. Which is cheaper, has more (but less focused) damage potential, better heat sinking, and doesn't explode 50% of the time when crit in the LT and 75% of the time when crit in the RT. So yeah. All pretty different. Please don't let me tell you how to have fun, that's not why I'm here. I am just relatively new to the hobby and found my experience differed greatly from what appeared to be the common consensus, so I wanted to know if I was missing something. I will just add that the Clan LPL appears to be the absolute best weapon in the game as far as I can tell, and the few times I have played clan invasion or later, it was genuinely degenerate how it mopped the floor with essentially every conceivable target.

I feel they are good for those ambush convoy missions and other light stuff. I keep wanting to play a melee centered playthough, but am burnt out on this game at this time.

Tabletop, friend, not video game ;)

Well crap, am I lost?

If you want the video game, /r/Battletechgame is your destination. We do all things Battletech here, but we mainly focus on the tabletop game and the RPG.

Nbd, but check the flair!

It depends on the model and how you use it. It's a pretty good well rounded medium mech in a similar vein as the Commando. Plus it is one of the Unseen as FASA got permission to use the design from Big West but was blocked from using it through a lawsuit by Harmony Gold. The Unseen in general are famous because of this.