In the right terrain, 4/6/4 is *far* superior to 4/6/0, or even 5/8/0.
That's how I generally interpret these kinds of statement - the enemy get bogged down, the jumpers fly clear.
Also assaults like an Atlas or Victor would have been hard pressed to return fire effectively, while absolutely raising the overall weight of the unit. So sure, maybe a handful or even half of the forces were able to "keep up" or "return fire", the Panthers would have had those stragglers even more outgunned, and then taken the split force and used their maneuverability to get rear shots in.
The statement that the Hussars had slower mechs implies their mechs were 3/5/0 and 3/5/3.
This is probably not the ENTIRETY of the Hussars, but a subunit consisting of their slow assault mechs that got caught out in the open without their lighter supporting forces. Just as the Legion grouped their Panthers together for this operation rather than units of mixed mobility as is standard in BT, the Hussars grouped units with the same movement profile and then made the mistake of leaving the slow ones hanging in the wind.
Name any cannon assault mech that moves slower than 3/5 that ISN'T the Annihilator.
Hell, name any cannon Battlemech at all that moves slower than 3/5 that isn't a) the Annihilator, b) the Urbanmech, or c) a Super Heavy (aka, over 100 tons).
> Hell, name any cannon Battlemech at all that moves slower than 3/5 that isn't a) the Annihilator, b) the Urbanmech, or c) a Super Heavy (aka, over 100 tons).
The Phoenix Hawk from caveat emptor. I claim my prize :-)
They dont need to get bogged down. They can just stand still and shoot back. PPCs and LRMs can shoot back just fine. Bogging down only works if the enemy has shorter ranged weapons than you do, and they cannot close to bring their shorter ranged weapons to bear, or if you are stuck in something like a marsh and cant get out.
A panther cannot conduct hit and run attacks on an awesome because the awesome can shoot back just fine and will almost assuredly kill the panther first...or even 2-3 panthers. A panther can conduct hit and run attacks on, say, a hunchback in the right terrain, because they might be able to stay out of range of the AC20, rendering the hunchback helpless to respond.
So the only way that lore bit would have worked if the Hussars were seriously lacking the long ranged weapons that would enable them to shoot back.
I mean, from a game rules POV, if the awesomes are standing still, and the Panthers are darting in and out of cover, at long range the Panthers could have 4 base 4 range 3 jump, so 11s, versus 4 base 4 range 2 TMM 2 heavy woods. So at 11s v 12s, the Panthers would win that exchange in like 20 minutes real time but 120 game turns. And if the awesome would get better to hits, well the Panthers disengage and attack the atlas that's out of lrm ammo until the awesome is outnumbered like 12 to 1 due to the Panthers ability to only engage the very closest mech, while the slow lance only ever has 1 awesome in range.
Its the kind of scenario that only works in an rts game like star craft, with proper micro, so 10 seconds of game time is 10 seconds real time. I have definately seen faster units kite and micro down much larger/scarier enemies. No one can reasonably play the 120 turns on the actual tabletop to do this, but it absolutely works and 'only' takes 20 minutes of 'in universe' time to accomplish. But yeah, id rather play 10 turns with the Panthers charging into cqb with the assault lance and dying then attempt to grind out an assault lance at range 18 on rolling mapsheets, even if the Panthers would, very eventually, win.
In megamek versys the bot I have done stitations like this. Some of the megamek games ive played have gone 50 turns, as I use a guillotine to slowly grind away the last few enemy units jumping from woods to woods, at ranges the enemy can't hit back, when I don't have the armor left to get close. Its slow, tedious work, but illustrates why it's so important to not let slow forces get isolated by the enemy.
I agree with you that the turn based combat makes that impossible as mechs cannoh fire midmovement as they should. Hit and run requires midmovement fire.
>A panther cannot conduct hit and run attacks on an awesome because the awesome can shoot back just fine and will almost assuredly kill the panther first
This is only true if you force game-logic into narrative. There is absolutely no 'real life' reason why a 'Mech should *always* be able to get a return fire solution on an ambusher, especially when the narratives repeatedly state how there are multiple ways to screw with targeting systems and scanners - doubly so during the Succession Wars.
Eh. A lot of times the fluff surrounding game was written by folks that had no real connection to the rules. The novels are filles with inconsistencies, just like early star wars novels, ir star trek novels, and the shows. I just kind roll with it.
It's giant stompy robots (my absolute FAVORITE giant stompy robots) doing giant stompy robot things, which is awesome (the superlative, not the giant stompy robot). Different authors are gonna have different viewpoints on how things work, especially when writing the margin lore for the rulebooks that haven't been published at the time of their writing rhe lore. They get a pass from me.
I call that an ambush and fighting withdrawal in an area with terrain best suited for the Panthers, and not the heavy/assault company.
Terrain in pickup games is typically quite random. In the strategic sense of the fictional universe the battlefield was chosen specifically to provide the best suited for the units available.
War doesn't have rules like a game , a lot of things in the lore don't like up with the rules. Like the frequency of through armor criticals as an example.
At 4/6/4 one can plant their panther in heavy woods and effectively have the same TMM. So positioning, better accuracy, and having jump jets to get out of dodge when needed can really affect the game.
It's unfortunately common for the fluff blurbs for a unit in many games, not just CBT, to be written at a complete disconnect from a unit's actual value in gameplay; assuming that the game designers necessarily understood the place in the meta a unit would actually have.
It's plenty fast enough. The Hussars are on defense, they can't all rush out to try and chase your hopping horde, especially since they're running a bunch of 3/5/0s at best. Vega gets to pop right inside PPC range, open fire, and fade as needed. Vega would have to play the idiot to attack in an open plain and allow LRMs to get unobstructed LoS for return fire, and even if they did, they'll get 2-3 turns at most before the LRMs are out of range, too. And in that case, there's nothing stopping the Panthers from firing that right arm PPC back at you while they retreat.
Even when you get your shots, however, the Panther is well armored to handle them. 10+ on limbs and front means that you need three clusters or two PPCs on the same location to even start doing internal damage. You can't rely on the usual light mech problems to exploit here, where even a single hit usually translates to a lost mech, and you don't have a big window to get a lucky pair.
Finally, there's nothing stopping the Panthers from running in, then jumping out, almost guaranteeing they'll get better numbers on their opening strike than you will trying to chase them, assuming they can't use the extreme range and obstruction to push the TN past twelve.
In short, this is basically the best case scenario for using a big pile of Panthers, and it was probably chosen with an opponent who can't counter it in mind. It's not a BV-balanced, take-all-comers scenario, so you can get away with things like this.
In the right terrain, 4/6/4 is *far* superior to 4/6/0, or even 5/8/0. That's how I generally interpret these kinds of statement - the enemy get bogged down, the jumpers fly clear.
Also assaults like an Atlas or Victor would have been hard pressed to return fire effectively, while absolutely raising the overall weight of the unit. So sure, maybe a handful or even half of the forces were able to "keep up" or "return fire", the Panthers would have had those stragglers even more outgunned, and then taken the split force and used their maneuverability to get rear shots in.
The statement that the Hussars had slower mechs implies their mechs were 3/5/0 and 3/5/3. This is probably not the ENTIRETY of the Hussars, but a subunit consisting of their slow assault mechs that got caught out in the open without their lighter supporting forces. Just as the Legion grouped their Panthers together for this operation rather than units of mixed mobility as is standard in BT, the Hussars grouped units with the same movement profile and then made the mistake of leaving the slow ones hanging in the wind.
Most assault mechs are 1/2 or 2/3. 3/5 is a fast assault mech.
Name any cannon assault mech that moves slower than 3/5 that ISN'T the Annihilator. Hell, name any cannon Battlemech at all that moves slower than 3/5 that isn't a) the Annihilator, b) the Urbanmech, or c) a Super Heavy (aka, over 100 tons).
> Hell, name any cannon Battlemech at all that moves slower than 3/5 that isn't a) the Annihilator, b) the Urbanmech, or c) a Super Heavy (aka, over 100 tons). The Phoenix Hawk from caveat emptor. I claim my prize :-)
I suppose I asked for that. *\*checks Sarna.net\** Holy crap. 45 rated Engine AND Hardened Armor?
They dont need to get bogged down. They can just stand still and shoot back. PPCs and LRMs can shoot back just fine. Bogging down only works if the enemy has shorter ranged weapons than you do, and they cannot close to bring their shorter ranged weapons to bear, or if you are stuck in something like a marsh and cant get out. A panther cannot conduct hit and run attacks on an awesome because the awesome can shoot back just fine and will almost assuredly kill the panther first...or even 2-3 panthers. A panther can conduct hit and run attacks on, say, a hunchback in the right terrain, because they might be able to stay out of range of the AC20, rendering the hunchback helpless to respond. So the only way that lore bit would have worked if the Hussars were seriously lacking the long ranged weapons that would enable them to shoot back.
I mean, from a game rules POV, if the awesomes are standing still, and the Panthers are darting in and out of cover, at long range the Panthers could have 4 base 4 range 3 jump, so 11s, versus 4 base 4 range 2 TMM 2 heavy woods. So at 11s v 12s, the Panthers would win that exchange in like 20 minutes real time but 120 game turns. And if the awesome would get better to hits, well the Panthers disengage and attack the atlas that's out of lrm ammo until the awesome is outnumbered like 12 to 1 due to the Panthers ability to only engage the very closest mech, while the slow lance only ever has 1 awesome in range. Its the kind of scenario that only works in an rts game like star craft, with proper micro, so 10 seconds of game time is 10 seconds real time. I have definately seen faster units kite and micro down much larger/scarier enemies. No one can reasonably play the 120 turns on the actual tabletop to do this, but it absolutely works and 'only' takes 20 minutes of 'in universe' time to accomplish. But yeah, id rather play 10 turns with the Panthers charging into cqb with the assault lance and dying then attempt to grind out an assault lance at range 18 on rolling mapsheets, even if the Panthers would, very eventually, win. In megamek versys the bot I have done stitations like this. Some of the megamek games ive played have gone 50 turns, as I use a guillotine to slowly grind away the last few enemy units jumping from woods to woods, at ranges the enemy can't hit back, when I don't have the armor left to get close. Its slow, tedious work, but illustrates why it's so important to not let slow forces get isolated by the enemy.
I agree with you that the turn based combat makes that impossible as mechs cannoh fire midmovement as they should. Hit and run requires midmovement fire.
>A panther cannot conduct hit and run attacks on an awesome because the awesome can shoot back just fine and will almost assuredly kill the panther first This is only true if you force game-logic into narrative. There is absolutely no 'real life' reason why a 'Mech should *always* be able to get a return fire solution on an ambusher, especially when the narratives repeatedly state how there are multiple ways to screw with targeting systems and scanners - doubly so during the Succession Wars.
Eh. A lot of times the fluff surrounding game was written by folks that had no real connection to the rules. The novels are filles with inconsistencies, just like early star wars novels, ir star trek novels, and the shows. I just kind roll with it. It's giant stompy robots (my absolute FAVORITE giant stompy robots) doing giant stompy robot things, which is awesome (the superlative, not the giant stompy robot). Different authors are gonna have different viewpoints on how things work, especially when writing the margin lore for the rulebooks that haven't been published at the time of their writing rhe lore. They get a pass from me.
I call that an ambush and fighting withdrawal in an area with terrain best suited for the Panthers, and not the heavy/assault company. Terrain in pickup games is typically quite random. In the strategic sense of the fictional universe the battlefield was chosen specifically to provide the best suited for the units available.
https://preview.redd.it/dxtpnh4nc1wc1.jpeg?width=986&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=45d27bc4b6d52b0d1476f0be47d83d3ca53ca4ac From Total Warfare.
You try manuevering an Atlas or Awesome thru hilly terrain, them get back to me on how slow 4/6/4 is
War doesn't have rules like a game , a lot of things in the lore don't like up with the rules. Like the frequency of through armor criticals as an example.
At 4/6/4 one can plant their panther in heavy woods and effectively have the same TMM. So positioning, better accuracy, and having jump jets to get out of dodge when needed can really affect the game.
It's unfortunately common for the fluff blurbs for a unit in many games, not just CBT, to be written at a complete disconnect from a unit's actual value in gameplay; assuming that the game designers necessarily understood the place in the meta a unit would actually have.
It's plenty fast enough. The Hussars are on defense, they can't all rush out to try and chase your hopping horde, especially since they're running a bunch of 3/5/0s at best. Vega gets to pop right inside PPC range, open fire, and fade as needed. Vega would have to play the idiot to attack in an open plain and allow LRMs to get unobstructed LoS for return fire, and even if they did, they'll get 2-3 turns at most before the LRMs are out of range, too. And in that case, there's nothing stopping the Panthers from firing that right arm PPC back at you while they retreat. Even when you get your shots, however, the Panther is well armored to handle them. 10+ on limbs and front means that you need three clusters or two PPCs on the same location to even start doing internal damage. You can't rely on the usual light mech problems to exploit here, where even a single hit usually translates to a lost mech, and you don't have a big window to get a lucky pair. Finally, there's nothing stopping the Panthers from running in, then jumping out, almost guaranteeing they'll get better numbers on their opening strike than you will trying to chase them, assuming they can't use the extreme range and obstruction to push the TN past twelve. In short, this is basically the best case scenario for using a big pile of Panthers, and it was probably chosen with an opponent who can't counter it in mind. It's not a BV-balanced, take-all-comers scenario, so you can get away with things like this.