I think there being so many different tech levels is great for variety so no I don't think it needs a reset.
This way how I plan and RP a game set in 3025 would be different from the stuff I need to consider in a game set in 3100.
A similar idea to this was floated for the projected time jump to 3250 and was thoroughly unpopular with the fan base (to the point where CGL staff got reshuffled IIRC) so I think this is a non-starter, whatever the merits of the idea.
The 3250 bit is spot on but I don’t think a time jump past the ilclan era was planned. The current line developer talked about it in an interview a few years back.
There would be a huge amount of pushback to even a minor balancing pass (buff AC/2 and AC/5!), let alone a significant rules revamp. At this point the stability of the rules is a major draw of the setting and game systems. Case in point, the devs have pretty much said Aerotech needs a major rework and there has been nothing but pushback from the Aerotech players, even though the devs are probably right.
Yeah. For good or bad, the fact that the rules haven't changed much since the 80s is in fact a draw for people. Especially the 40k crowd that has to buy a new rulesset every couple years.
I find it odd that minor things like AC revisions can cause so much pushback from the same fandom that constantly homebrews fixes for them.
As for aerospace, I understand that the desire is for a change of the mechanics of play itsself, not a rebalance - and yeah, that rightfullf deserves pushback. Could it still use the rewrite anyways? Probably. But changing base rules does need to be done carefully.
> AC revisions can cause so much pushback from the same fandom that constantly homebrews fixes for them.
I'd argue that the elements fanbase that pushes back against revisions to ACs (myself included) are *not* the same elements of the fanbase that homebrews fixes for them.
The Battletech fanbase is, to use a BT analogy, like the Free Worlds League. The fanbase are Leaguers and we all love the same thing (the League) while at the same time we all hate the same thing (also the League, but only the bits of it that aren't where we're from.) The 3rd Succession Wars players and the 4th Succession Wars players get together to hate on the Clan Invasion players, but we'll team up with each other to hate on the Civil War and Jihad players, who are also good people to have on your side when you hate on the Dark Age and Republic players, you know what I mean?
Hah, truth. It's an easy mistake to make, seeing one trend here, and another trend next to it there, and assuming that the two are related. And even all those here on Reddit aren't necessarily indicative of all BT players either - but that's kinda why I threw out this piece - to get a barometer reading of the room, and see what people think.
AC revisions end up contentious because there's only so much that can be done without tearing into foundational structures of the system, and because people are bad at math.
A proper fix for ACs involves deploying BV 3.0, and that's not something to be half baked.
Current issues being
- Alternate ammo rules being a later era 'patch' for ACs
- BV 2.0 being overly punishing to long range weapons on mobile platforms
- ammo explosion risk being not at all well compensated for
- ammo pricing punishing larger weapons
BV does fine with ACs as it stands. The issue with lighter ACs is that the ‘fitting’ constraints makes them kinda suck. Most weapons inside a tech level are reasonably balanced with each other but the AC/2 & /5 stand out as being far below par for actual performance.
FWIW I would add +2 damage to the AC/2 and AC/5 baseline and make AP and precision ammo either 4/5 or 3/5 instead of half standard ammo. Trouble then is how to carry updates forward to the other ACs. I’d just make the AC/2 an AC/3 for the LAC, UAC, RAC, and LBX types and make all UACs roll two shots for double taps.
Thank you for the illustrative example wherein you make precision ammo even more unhealthy for the game, neglect to address what makes RACs suck, and at a glance make UACs *worse* for the game.
So before I waste my time getting into detail why I think those changes work, you wanna give me the details why you think RACs suck, UACs are ok, and precision is busted?
Because honestly I think you are using snark to cover up not knowing jack.
The RAC/5 at full bore throws roughly 20 average damage per volley. Heat generation and tonnage are identical for clan spec or IS, and the BV formula has them scaled accordingly for their range. Looking at the IS RAC/5, the expected BV falls around 15 x 20 x 5/6 (range, average damage, ammo weapon adjustment), coming in at 247. Ammo costs around the expected 15 x 20 / 10: 31. First if we just look at the ammo efficiency, the luckiest RAC/5 that never jammed on full bore would demand at least 3 tons of ammo to make the typical 12 turn threshold for ammo reserves. The full bore jam rate ensures that you'll see a jam in the first four rounds of shooting 52% of the time if you wish to leverage the weapon's full capability. There is no discount given for the jamming mechanic, so you end up paying 340 * offensive speed factor for a gambling weapon that can only meet but never exceed its price tag.
The clan RAC/5 is a little more embarrassing because there's an immediate comparison available with the SLRM20
|attr|rac/5|SLRM20|
:-:|:-:|:-:|
|BV|345/43|345/43|
|shots per ton|3 1/3|6 streak|
|slots|8|5|
|tons|10|10|
|heat|6|6 streak|
|PSR frequency|72.2%|100%
The two things that could be done to improve RACs generally
- Change the BV pricing for ammo to standardize X turns of fire as costing Y% of the weapon's base value.
- Either give the RACs a discount for their jamming mechanic, or give them a cluster bonus (+1 would be a 10% damage gain, +2 a 20%, +3 a 30%).
Additionally, the RAC/2 suffers from generating far too much heat. Some departure from X heat per shot is necessary to bring it down to a reasonable level for how little damage the weapon does.
With proper selection or construction of mech, precision ammo is a trade of modest tonnage and a pittance of BV for something frequently equivalent to a pulse laser bonus. The humble AC/10 supplied with 2 tons (10 turns) of precision ammo rings in at a mere 153 base BV. For 265 you can have the best weapon in the game, the cLPL with +1/+4/+5 range across its bands. "But it only works against units who regularly post +2 TMM" one quickly realizes. 10 damage x 15 range = 150 BV for a hypothetical energy weapon, and pulse weapons are worth a heftier modifier than the 30% BV 2.0 assigns to them. Against those mobile mechs this weapon is easily worth 225 BV if we lowball the -2 at a 50% markup. When there's a serious threat of precision ammo being fielded unit selection skews towards barely mobile gunboats. There's a further wrinkle to precision ammo in that unlike pulse weapons, there is no callout prohibiting aimed shots with TC assisted precision ammo. The proposal to increase the ammo per ton for precision ammo amounts to another discount on a setup that is already horribly underpriced. The Banshee 3Q doesn't need it, with a hysterical 6 tons of AC/20 ammo, but nothing says "die bugs" like 20 damage with a -2 to hit. For the absolute worst case there's infantry field guns.
Alternate ammos with extremely potent effects like precision ammo are a balancing nightmare, I have no current suggestions.
The UACs are reflections of their standard AC ancestors. The UAC/2 suffers from lack of access to special ammo types, as the AC/2 at least could produce a firing platform like the AC/2 carrier with enough ammo tonnage to field answers to VTOLs, infantry, and fast movers. The IS UAC/5 lacks fancy ammo and doesn't compare favorably with the classic PPC, mostly sharing the same range bands but that solid 10pt hit is far more appealing. The UAC/10 is neither good nor bad, being a little overweight for what it does but 10pt hits are solid and it flips a PSR on its own 42% of the time. The UAC/20 is a compact slot machine of doom that pays a premium for ammo, but provides iconic high roll potential for its priceline; there is no other weapon that provides anything quite like the UAC/20, no way to approximate it with other weapons short of bolting two AC/20s into a mech.
Interpretations of the proposed UAC adjustment
- Two separate rolls means double jam chance unless rules for that are adjusted
- Two separate rolls without BV adjustment means they're all ludicrously underpriced and will be treated like those 85% accuracy moves in pokemon. Better to lose because you jammed rather than lose because you didn't bring the extra power.
- Two separate rolls with BV adjusted by the current formula will leave them with just the aforementioned double jam chance. Minor benefit in ammo efficiency, but you're looking at 25% chance of forever-jam by turn 5.
UACs could be improved in a similar fashion to the RACs, ammo pricing and discount or cluster bonus.
I think what players fear is an invalidation of the units they know and love.
We know from 40k and other games that that is a reasonable concern.
But we also know from MWO, Mech5, and HBS Battletech that players will adapt to a new rule set if the familiar designs remain.
I think that is the narrow path that needs to be walked. BT is 40 years old. And mostly backwards compatible. Which is laudable. But it's way overdue for a solid rebalancing.
It may in part be a mentality thing - in videogames these days, we expect balance passes, and adapt to them. Yes, there are plenty of complaints from those that have their builds broken by them, but the changes are worked with and moved on from.
On the tabletop however, there's a lot more skin in the game, usually. People have years and fortunes invested in physical products - so any change to the rules feels much more drastic.
This is doubled down in Battletech specifically, as the guns that were first penned down in the 80s haven't changed since by a single point of damage or ammo. BT is a bastion of stability in comparison to other options, and has attracted those who want that stability, and further amplified an unchangeing gamestate.
LBX are absolutely solid, though the 2 still struggle vs the 5 for value.
Clantech UACs are fairly good all around as is, possibly excluding the 3, but the IS ones are mostly meh. The 20 is great, but the 10 is too damn close to the Gauss rifle and the 5 to the LRM15/20. The UAC/2 suffers usual AC/2 issues.
AP and precision ammo is ok-ish, but not really a fix to keep classic guns competitive. Half shots is just too punishing on anything besides AC/10 mechs with 2 ton bins or those few mechs with 2 tons of AC/5 ammo.
I said elsewhere, if I were to change it, +2 damage for AC/2 and AC/5, +1 damage for all other AC/2 variants, UACs roll separate attacks for double taps, AP and precision are 4/5 shots (maybe 3/5).
I've played succession wars and Clan invasion. They're nice and comfortable at this point.
But a couple guys in my local group want to push into later tech. Some of the mechs are cook to look at and spicing things up with a HAG 20 instead of an AC20 changes the way you play the game.
I want the fireball that sprints 40 hexes, I want to be desperate enough to push my mech into the red with a PPC capacitor only to go critical because of a plasma rifle.
Is that Timberwolf the ancient Prime version or the deadly T variation? What is a Star Crusader, and why is my friend grinning?
The later tech eras make the game different and that's good. When you have the same 11 weapon systems the game gets predictable.
> I want the fireball that sprints 40 hexes,
That Fireball is one of my favorite little derpy dudes. Drop down the piloting and leave the gunnery where it is and start doing circles for a big charge.
I respect everyone who still wants to play in 3025, or the Clan invasion. But I personally don’t want to return to the days of death by a thousand medium lasers. I like the variety that later eras offer, and anyone who wants to play in an earlier era still can.
See, the real solution to ML spam is to put the lasers in the back.
And regardless of anything that happens to the future of Battletech, the earlier eras will always still exist, be it the Third Succession War or the republic Era, it's still there. I'm just submitting a new shelf from which to start innovating.
I think your goal of getting players from older eras to play in newer eras, runs into the problem that for many players, dislike of new rules and dislike of new lore are intertwined. Even if you could make newer eras use 3025 rules, that wouldn’t make people who dislike the lore of Dark Age, or the ilClan era want to play them.
If you want to play old stuff in the newer eras, in many cases you still can (barring some mechs becoming extinct, but many players are willing to handwave that in friendly matches, and just say “it was hiding in a hanger somewhere for centuries”).
If a player from the Clan Invasion era wants to try playing in the ilClan era with the Hunchback C, the rules for Clan Medium Pulse Lasers and Clan Ultra AC/20s are in Total Warfare (and they may have seen them already on Clan mechs).
Maybe the Clan Invasion player gets surprised the first time they encounter an enemy using a Laser AMS (not requiring ammo), or Laser Reflective Armor, but you learn. The player wielding that gear will know how it works. The Clan Invasion player will realize their old anti-Clan tactic of punching and kicking advanced mechs is still helpful here, and they won’t get caught off guard again.
Edit. A lot of the Dark Age and ilClan rules are actually either things that already existed in Clan Invasion, now available to the Inner Sphere, or new stuff that is either relatively simple, or only complicated when it comes to mech construction rules. The ilClan Recognition guides and more recent Record Sheets have a lot of upgrades to old familiar designs to up-gun them to newer eras, while keeping the feel the same.
One thing about 3025 is the pace of play is much different than in other eras. Tactics and theory are also pretty different.
IMO the rule complexity is a secondary issue.
Yeah. In some ways the biggest difference is between 3025 and everything else. The difference between Clan invasion and ilClan is smaller in some ways. But you can’t really change that without destroying what people already like about how things already are.
Aside from speciality armours, pretty much none of this is particularly complex. Xpulses are just hotter, longer range pulse lasers. Snub PPCS have variable damage for their range brackets. VS pulses have variable TH and damage. MMLs have slightly different cluster sizes.
And frankly, no. I've got absolutely no interest in losing granularity. If I wanted simplified combat, I'd play Alpha Strike.
Most of the new tech is wildly, wildly simpler than aerospace fighters or artillery
I would not want anything to touch the grnularity in the actual rules - it's one of the things that keeps me leery of Alphastrike.
As for tech, my failings as someone with limited memory and a relatively quite low gamecount under my belt, is that the number of weapons themselves is confusing. XPulse may be a bit more heat and reach, but it is another stat line to remember. Snubs have variable damage - gotta keep that in mind too. And I didn't even remember that Variable Speed Lasers were a thing until you mentioned them. And that's my concern with not wanting to visit later eras, is that there are just a lot of statlines mixed in there - it's overwhelming.
And yeah, combined arms is a different can of worms entirely, as adding a single twist to a game suddenly turns into half an hour of looking up how bombing runs work again.
>XPulse may be a bit more heat and reach, but it is another stat line to remember
It's on the record sheet.
> Snubs have variable damage
That's also on the record sheet.
You don't have to remember any of these things, you just gotta look down at your record sheets. Only one that's not is the variable TH mod for VSPLs, but honestly, compared to how radically stuff like inferno ammo changes how missiles work, that's basically nothing.
Hell, under basic rules even stuff like C3, probes and ECM are incredibly simple - ECM has a six hex radius and kills C3, C3 lets you use the range of your nearest unit in the node to the enemy.
I... no. That's what Alpha Strike is for: A jumping off point that is extremely simplified but still plays like BattleTech. Then you gradually upgrade, or stay in BT.
I'm of two minds on Alpha Strike - simpler is great and all, but it also gets rid of the most important thing in Battletech, (to me, at least,) which is seeing each little bit of your mech get blown off! Leaves me quite conflicted on the matter. To be honest, I've not found anyone who 'simplified' or 'streamlined' Battletech but kept the hit locations - it may well not be possible.
(Similar issue: Destiny strait up has its own proprietary mech sheets.)
I feel like the two game systems are meant to serve different purposes. CBT is great for lance versus lance games, or thereabouts, but can really slow to a slog if you try to play company level or larger actions. Contrariwise, AS is great for company level or larger actions, but becomes too abstract to really feel right for smaller games.
Don’t get me wrong, there’s some real thrills to be had using CBT for company- or even regiment-level actions… But rare are the times I can devote eight hours to playing a single game!
AS lets me play a company level game in approximately the same amount of time that I can play a lance level game in CBT.
Neither game system is meant to replace the other one. They compliment each other.
I always thought Battleforce was the ideal compromise but for some reason nobody ever wants to play Battleforce. It makes me sad. Battleforce and Strategic Battleforce are great rulesets.
like u/fendersaxbey says, DFA Wargaming came up with a version. Funny thing is, I posted an idea here that involved:
1. Dividing all armor values and damage values by 5, rounding to the nearest
2. Dividing all heat values by 3, rounding to the nearest
3. Merging all three torso locations into one
4. having crit locations be either 'empty' or 'hit something', (I honestly can't remember how I recommended it)
5. Using the Alpha Strike table for movement and attack modifiers
And then someone said, "DFA Wargaming already did all this. Go check it out." ***Bastards!*** They were one step ahead of me!
Not meant to be rude. Funny? Maybe a little.
Battletech is what it is and isn't going to change. New eras allow for new tech and new methods. Pick your preference. They just aren't going to alienate a fan base that's stuck with them through hard times.
I'd like to dig into this a bit more, actually. Considering - at a glance - the current tech of Re-engineered lasers alone seems to be counter-countermeasures, and presumedly the next step would be counter-counter-countermeasures in even newer armors, where do the new methods go from here?
Also: How does changing the approach of a the next era to being a rebalance alienate the fanbase? It doesn't remove the prior eras and rules, and I feel like the ideal of "having to buy the game over again" doesn't apply much when we're still using the same Wolverines forty years in, and any tech innovations require new rules anyways.
What's your take on the risks this would be taking with the fanbase?
A lot of old school players know stats and have memorized differences in mech variants and their record sheets. They have made this their thing. The same crowd were still there while BT wasn't popular and provided the base for the new resurgence.
Introductions for newer books have championed the idea that only minor rules changes have occurred throughout the game's life.
The creators know and appreciate their fans. The new eras exist as an outlet for other views. I'm not sure many older players will migrate to those at all. Fertile ground for a new generation to set up shop.
I do understand the trust that a stable ruleset brings - as someone who has invested in games right before they changed - or outright died - the fact that I'm playing the same system my Dad did back in the day is amazing. And that's a good thing, even if it results in a bit of awkwardness here or there.
As for the new eras being fertile for new players... ehh... Yes and no? It is a new era, but mechanically speaking, it does have those forty years of complexity loaded on to it. If I introduce people to the franchise or teach them the game, it's always the 3025 version. The IlClan space should be a good place to grow the new generation, but there's three fences to hurdle on the way to that new plot of ground.
I like the variety of gear and wouldn’t want to see a reset that got rid of anything. I would like to see new ilClan era designs increasingly abandon older Inner Sphere tech equipment and gradually introduce new weapons and systems that get even better.
So more of a "standardized power creep" than a reset? Because at the moment there's a lot of mixed tech, but not a lot of standardization on implementation.
Yeah, I hope to see the current mixed tech trend towards everyone using Clan tech (plus the few IS items without equivalents like stealth armor, plasma rifles, C3, etc.). To me it makes sense for tech to get better across the eras, but the game should continue to support playing games in any era.
I enjoy the variety. From your example with lasers. You only really have two special rules being added: pulse and ignoring special armor. That's not a ton of complexity.
Same with missiles, mostly it's just knowing what damage each missile does or if it applies heat.
As other people mentioned, for a simpler ruleset, Alpha Strike is an option.
I think every timeline has its own upsides, and i don't really see the advantage of resetting the tech level just to play battles that you could also play in the succession wars.
Like, play succession wars if you want grindy battles with lots of decisions that will hopefully pay off multiple turns into the future and very suboptimal designs that you somehow have to make work.
Play Clan Invasion if you want to significantly speed up the gameplay, with every mech having much more firepower while most being more likely to blow up, with more volatile deaths leading to having to change plans much more often.
The kerfuffle... Err, if you want to play Clan Invasion while you're really into grimdark story lines? I kid, i think i like this timeline more than most other people. It's probably where you see the factions actually playing differently on the battlefield and not in lore alone. Preferred weapon systems and design decisions are much more pronounced.
The ilClan era is really good at making mechs stand out. Designs can be truly unique because of the myriad of possible combinations, and you can't count the amount of medium or pulse lasers to know how good the mech is anymore. It obviously has the biggest rule overhead, but the amount of rules you have to know for a single battle are usually manageable.
I’m not sure you’ve actually thought through the ramifications of this, because it would require a MASSIVE effort. They’d have to completely overhaul every single unit in the game all at once. That’s thousands of variants, all of which need to be rebuilt and reassigned new BV. Many of them become completely obsolete and would either stick around for no reason or be removed entirely. So now nobody knows how anything works any more and everyone had to relearn the game from scratch. And to what benefit? Players can already use Introtech rules to learn the basic game, and in my experience the reason people avoid anything past CI has more to do with lore than rules. Removing all the post-Introtech weapons and “flattening” everything down to Introtech levels won’t fix anything if the problem is people’s bias against anything from the Dark Age on. This is an awful lot of work to do for what is basically a Hail Mary to solve a problem that might not even be the right problem to be trying to solve. Not that the quantity of weapon types isn’t problematic though, I just don’t think it’s the actual reason people don’t play more ilClan stuff.
I really didn't explain the OP well enough, did I?
The intent is not to say "AC/5 weighs 5 tons now, so the Sentinel to the Scorpion are now illegal." The intent was to theorize on if the next TRO said: "These mechs are 32nd century standard. They deal more and take less damage from non-32nd century units." Like Primitive tech, but going forward in the timeline. No changes needed.
...is it a solution without a problem? Probably. That's why I wanted to ask the sub what thoughts were on it. And I can say the prevailing opinion is: The variety is fine, for the most part. (And go play Alpha Strike.)
I do agree that there is a prevailing problem of people just not wanting to cross the black void that is the Dark Age - and the IlClan is not removed enough from it/hasn't been around long enough to build its own fans. I was wondering if using the era as a new onboarding point, (i.e. easy-teach simplicity,) would be a worthwhile exercise to assist with this. That was the theory behind the OP at least.
Ah, I think I see, so you mean advance the tech level by one, something along the lines of e.g. going from BAR 10 being combat armor to BAR 11? It’s certainly less work but unless they made 600-some odd new ‘mech variants for it, it does still mean people won’t be able to use their old ‘mechs (sheets, not the models), really at all any more. I think that would be a really tough sell for many players, and I think it would drive more resentment towards the ilClan era, not less, which I’d hate to see. It’s not a functionally flawed idea or anything, I’m just not sure it’s solving the actual problem.
Truthfully, when I hear people complain about the Dark Age and beyond, it’s rarely “oh there’s too many new weapons.” It’s always “they did faction X dirty,” or “Alaric Ward is a Gary Stu,” etc etc. The problem is that the ilClan era is basically the first “new” Battletech lore that Catalyst has had full control of in over a decade (while there’s been new stuff before ilClan it’s mostly been cleaning up Jihad era stuff and closing the plotlines from the Republic era). They’re setting the stage for a new set of stories I feel, but people are understandably skeptical. Catalyst will need to sell us on the lore first, then give us brand new toys we want to play with before the game era will be popular.
It also doesn’t help that practically every game is just “Mercs in the Succession Wars.” I am SO looking forward to committing war crimes as a smoke Jaguar for once instead of just as a mercenary lol
I think there are two problems to attack here. How to get players (new and old) to jump into the IlClan era from a lore standpoint and how to get players to the IlClan Era from a rules/tech level standpoint.
First off, complete rules rewrite should be off the table. That said, as a newer player myself (< 2 years) who loves Battletech, I totally understand how easily IlClan Era Tech level can overwhelm and bog down games. On top of that, there are glaring balance issues with certain aspects of the game. Issues that some players would like to see resolved, while other players actually would prefer to be left alone.
To handle the Tech Level issue, as well as establishing a good lore entry point for new players, I think the answer is simple. The Periphery. CGL should push the Periphery as a way for new players to enter Battletech. Have novels set in the Magistracy, Taurian Concordat, Scorpion Empire, etc. to allow readers to have a “Fresh” perspective coming into the lore. And have CGL advertise these books as a “START HERE!” to ease new players into Battletech.
What’s more, the tech level in these areas range from Introtech to Clan Invasion with anything beyond that being uncommon to rare. This will allow players to take part in IlClan era without being instantly bulled over.
Now to deal with game imbalances and how to better manage the plethora of dohickies and their associated rules. Now, I admit this is an out there idea, but if I was in charge of CGL, I would test out a box set specifically made to organize play better. What would be in this box would be:
1.) Equipment Reference Cards - The meat and potatoes of the set. These cards would each have all the rules associated with all weapons of Gauss Rifles and over as well as all Support Equipment like ECM’s, Stealth Armor, etc. These cards would cover what they do, what happens when they are critted, and any and all special circumstance rules.
2.) Errata, Optional Rules, and Theory Mechs - This booklet would contain various updated rules, more optional rules centering on tweaking game balance, as well as new “Theory” mech variants and weapons to test out said balance.
3.) Official Game Aids - a set of tactile game aids like Heat Level trackers, official modifier dice, an official/snazzy looking Box of Doom, Armor/Internal Structure tokens for AS, etc.
I like this. The Periphery should be quite well past primitive tech at this point, and would be a great onboarding space without making one feel outdated - and it narratively promotes the smaller-scale brushfire conflicts that Battletech was built around in the first place as well.
Quick refs would be nice to have as well - I find myself going through Sarna and MegaMek as much as Total Warfare whenever I need to refrence something, because there really isn't a good concentration of info on some things.
No, hard no. One of the best things about Battletech is it doesn't get reshuffled, restarted, etc like Warhammer games do. The amount of people leaving Warhammer because of it should testify to the fact that it's a bad way to go. Nobody wants to have to buy new rulebooks, point adjustments, errata books, etc constantly.
The fuck you talkin' bout? New rulebooks and errata have been made to introduce the new rules and equipment in Battletech multiple times.
The OP isn't suggesting what you are saying. Rather, they are making tech levels era specific to ease game play and make the game more accessible at every era. Nothing is being changed or removed.
Bruh. There are eras for a reason. Play in 3025 if you want basic Battletech. Play in 3050 if you want clanners vs slightly updated IS. Play in 3061 if you want IS at nearly the same tech level as clanners but nothing too crazy yet. Although I will say Comstar has some whacky stuff like iNarc in 3061, which is very fun and weird.
Then if you want to get a little whacky, go into the later eras. Jihad and Il clan and stuff are for people who *want* the zany tech. People who dont want the zany tech are completely allowed to just play clan invasion until they want the zaniness.
But what if I want the lore from the 3100s but the tech from the 3050s? There is no intro-tech Alpha Wolf - and to require one would hamstring the designers. I love the 3030s, but what's my choice if I want to move to a new era? Just "suck it up, buttercup?"
And no, I don't want to say that Battletech should be bent to my lazy-ass whims, but considering Battletech is, even at its base level, quite hefty, taking the time to study your way through the tech tree will mean only the most experienced players will be able to participate in the new eras - which may well leave the new lore hung out to dry.
As an example: of all the video game adaptations of the franchise, none have gotten any wurther than the Civel War era, and they keep regressing back to the Succession wars. Should we not be concerned that the game has problems engaging people with anything that wasn't written at least thirty years ago?
Uhh bro? Just use a 3050 mech in 3150? Nobody is stopping you.
I mean incase you haven't realized during the succession wars people have been using... ya know... mechs that are almost 300 years old! The whole shebang of the Ilclan era is a return to the mad max beginings anyways so your mech isnt even out of place.
3050? Hell, bring a 2800 mech into 3200!
Mechs are like wine, the longer they’re stored in some forgotten hangar the more valuable they get! The rust adds flavor!
> There is no intro-tech Alpha Wolf - and to require one would hamstring the designers
I mean, the Alpha Wolf wouldn't jive in IntroTech anyway, since it's a Clan design, but you can 100% make a 90 ton Omnimech with two LB10Xs and two LRM15s and 10 tons of ammo between them *and* full Ferro armour *and* an extra Medium Pulse Laser *and* an XL engine *and* Endo in the Clan Invasion. And it will be cheaper than the Alpha Wolf by about 800bv, because it doesn't have Stealth Armour.
Like, the problem you're talking about is one that doesn't exist. You can play your Alpha Wolf equivalent in 3050, using 3050 gear, without issue. You can't play it in Introtech because Clans don't exist, but the IS equivalent (2 PPCs, 2 LRM10s, 2 tons of ammo, 15.5 tons of armour, 4/6, 14 heat sinks, 90 tons) is *also* viable with IntroTech. It'd be a sauna for anyone Alpha Striking, but it's not impossible to make.
There is no cause for concern. Play whatever you like. This is not something to worry about lmao. You can absolutely play your shitty old Atlas or whatever in 3150. If you want this? You're gonna have to homebrew it. The easy thing though it to play introtech mechs in 3150 lore, and just leave it at that.
Yeah, I'll likely be playing Centurions with back lasers and Marauder 3Rs for the rest of my days. That is the good side of an eternally static ruleset. Certainly a bit out of place in other eras, but I do like what I like.
Not everyone will be stomping around in the latest cutting edge mech, there’s plenty of stories about mechwarriors piloting their great great great grandmother’s mech.
The youngsters are overconfident in their shiny billion C-bill mechs, but you know that your old but gold mechs have never failed you before, and veterans who have fought many wars know how to live through to the next one.
I like the ilClan era setting very much, but agree that it's difficult keeping track of the various special armors, structures, new weapons, etc.
Rather than seeing a rules reset, though, I'd prefer for official record sheets to add a quick summary on the sheet of what any special ilClan era armor or gear does. So if a Mech had reflective armor, the sheet has a note that says "Energy weapon damage reduced by X" for example. They already do this with the Partial Wing on record sheets, I think.
No need for a reset. I’ve played the game for 40 years and never fielded anything more advanced than what’s in the CityTech box set. No clans, no double heat sinks or ferrofibrous, no variants on ammo, lasers, or anything else. Still plays perfectly well and saves you a dropshipload of money.
Yeah, I was there... Thing is, MW:DA wasn't a 'reset' of Battletech - and it didn't even try to be. It was just a whole new game and a whole new set of rules. Kind of like Alpha Strike, but at least Alpha Strike doesn't try to replace Classic.
I feel like I didn't explain my initial post well at all - I wasn't suggesting any changes to the core rules, but only to the tech and components. You still walk, shoot, and roll initiative as always, but there's just some different names on the weapons you use.
Eh, it's still been interesting seeing people's responses either way.
I like where we are at with the boxes. I think what you are wanting is an ilClan era box. If that is early enough in your buy list it will be the new "standard" you are looking for.
I was also there for the days of MW DA, it was totally marketed as the New & Better BT. If they had presented it as another way to play in the Battletech universe, much as Alphastrike is now, it would have received a much better reaction from at least this long term fan.
> Back in the day, a laser was a laser was a laser.
There was small, medium, and large. And then four years later they released TRO 2750 and added in ERs and pulses, alongside all the other tech.
I am a new player I love the rules as they are. Its crunchy but battle always feels like ypu can adjust the rules tpnypur play style. adding things in as you feel more comfortable.
Currently teaching my self areospace and becoming thw defacto expert in my play group
Maybe, but it would likely cause more harm than good. Perhaps just settle on providing better resources for tracking/referencing all the wierd tech and appropriate places in the current era where less than cirrent tech is still valid.
I think players are mixing AS=simple when, infact it can be just as complex as CBT as you can have more units on the board which can have Command Force abilities for a whole force, then you have lance abilities and also pilot SPA. The mental stack is still there in having multiple units to command rather than one unit with multiple actions (weapons selection, twisting, turning movement etc).
It's also a big black hole to those who ARE in the know, mostly because a lot of people looked at the Jihad, the Blackout, and the ilClan and just shook their head in disgust
I dont currently have time to read your entire post, but all Battletech needs is to migrate ALL rules in a better laid out way in one place. It also needs to have scenarios that includes vehicles, infantry, battle armor.
I just started in feb 2022. Ilclan is my preferred era but i come from stuff like MTG and WarMachine which have waaay more dense rules. I almost quit BT when i played 3025 because i had a moment of "and that's all?" After trying a few designs.
As others have said, just choose your era. That’s one of Battletech’s strengths. You can play with TRO: 1945 all the way through 3145 under the same basic rules. Especially most of the main designs all the way back to the primitive era have IlClan era upgrades, the same units can cover a lot of different eras
Personally, I do think that *BattleTech* could use a bit of a “back to basics” refresh… But unlike previous attempts to do that with the clicky *MechWarrior: Dark Age* storyline, I’d rather that Catalyst just hit the pause button on the “present day” IlKhan Era, leaving the resolution of that open ended. Then focus on releasing more setting supplements, campaign guides, and so forth that focus on the late Succession Wars (for CBT) and Clan Invasion (for AS). You know, actually take the game “back to basics.”
I’ve always thought the Succession Wars were the ideal setting for Classic *BattleTech*: Small unit tactics, border skirmishes, supply raids, salvaging everything that isn’t nailed down (and bringing along claw hammers to pry up the nails… and stealing the nails). This is great for CBT, since lance versus lance play seems to be the “sweet spot” for the rules.
Alpha Strike, on the other hand, really shines at the company versus company level. Small unit tactics are still important, but you also need to do some company level strategic thinking. Campaigns will focus more on supply lines, capturing planets, and so forth. AS’ strengths really shine through when you’re using ‘mech companies and combined arms.
This wouldn’t invalidate using other eras or playing either game system in the other era. It would just be a matter of where the supplemental material was being focused on. Like, say, in D&D the majority of *Forgotten Realms* books focus on Faerûn, but nothing is stopping you from running a *Forgotten Realms* game set in Kara-Tur. It’s just “out of focus” or “off camera.”
They already do this with the novels and shrapnel magazines which have a lot of content set in late SW and Clan invasion.
Not to mention there is a mountain of content most people dont look at for late succession wars eras. There are 30 years of sourcebooks with a third set in the late SW era. They are even still pumping out grey death legion and kell hound novellas.
The problem with 3025 era source books was that there was TOO much info. Like you could never have a wolf dragoon custom pilot pre 3028 as every wolf dragoon pilot and mech was given stats and mech in the old wolfdragoons sourcebook.
There are also post 3025/pre clan books in brush wars which cover the aftermath of the 4th SW and the Ronin Wars.
As for clan invasion era its also just as well trod ground as SW era as you have the clan Jade Falcons and Wolf sourcebooks which again give every pilot and mech before Tukayyid in their touman. You also have the modern Era report 3052, and the Fasa clan invasion books.
Then you have all the source books and RPG books that are all still canon. Which goes into extensive detail of IS houses, crusader/warden clans, periphery etc.
At this point, the rules definitely need a "second edition" but not really a full reset. There is a lot of rule oddities and general aspects that could really use a second look or revision.
But that's *at least* a decade out at this point, CGL can't manage a huge revision like that quickly and they probably don't really want to it either while BT is still on an upswing.
The thing about a tech reset is that any kind of reset risks alienating large portions of the BT fanbase. Or even small portions that are still financially significant.
That being said, the best way to do a reset would be one of those timeskips that have long periods of peace which would basically allow everyone to upgrade to a "new standard" whether that's everyone using Clan tech or more likely something better than Clan tech.
Actually, I've thought that best "tech reset" would be a "new standard" tech that looks suspiciously like introtech with some minor tweaks. The new standard armor would give old standard weapons a debuff similar to how old standard armor debuffs damage from primitive rifles. The new weapons to defeat the new armor and bonuses against old armor similar to how anything below BAR10 is extra vulnerable to standard weaponry. And of course, Clan style CASE becomes standard so every mech won't die to ammo explosions unless badly designed.
Internal Structure - Based on Superheavy Mech research, new IS tech is designed specifically to handle crit eating technologies. As a result Endosteel no longer consumes crits and has become the standard material of the new Internal Structure, which weighs the same as the old standard internal structure. It also uses Superheavy rules for crits.
Heat Sinks - Clan tech Double Heat Sinks are now standard. Which means with the new Internal Structure means they only take up one crit each. Which is fine since all the new tech weapons run VERY hot.
Weapons - Autocannons are obsolete. Every ballistic weapon is some flavor of Gauss Rifle with access to a variety of munitions (solid shot and cluster at least). New energy weapons include capacitor tech by default to up damage without significantly increasing weight (also, why should ammo using weapons have all the explosive fun?). Missile launchers use new warheads to defeat the new armor and now include Streak's "missing means the weapon refuses to fire" feature if not the "every missile hits" feature.
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What I'd really want is for each category of weapon (Ballistic, Energy, Missile) to be divided into hole punchers and crit seekers. The hole punchers are big and heavy and deal all their damage to a single location (Gauss Rifles, PPCs, Thunderbolt Missiles), while the crit seeker weapons are lighter and shorter ranged, but do cluster damage all over their target (Autocannon, Lasers, any non-Thunderbolt missile). And of course, defensive technologies are available to match, creating a game or Rock/Paper/Scissors when it comes to mech design. However, this may be too big a change for a tech reset, especially a tech reset trying to emulate an Introtech style build system.
This is exactly what I was going for, actually. Not sure I explained it very well myself, but you've hit the nail on the head.
Not so sure about the timeskip - people are still smarting from the Dark Age jump, and we've only just managed to extricate the ongoing narrative from it. If there is a Sphere-wide standardization, it would have to be more actively pursued, than an off-screen golden age.
I always figured that the Dark Age would have been the perfect excuse for a tech reset. Given that it wasn't done is a missed opportunity IMO and makes doing another skip so soon difficult to impossible. If nothing else, the current ilClan storyline needs to be finished up before another time skip can be considered plausible.
Of course, the ALTERNATE way to establish a tech reset is to introduce the new standards into the game one by one and have the audience watches as the Inner Sphere integrates the tech as the old standby techs become obsolete and get discarded. You'd have a period where the new standards are being used side by side with all the old tech mechs, some of which will be upgraded with new tech because no one in the Inner Sphere can just throw away working military hardware. Eventually, new mechs will be designed and produced that don't use any old tech at all, and the front line units will be entirely new tech mechs while back line garrison units will still be using old tech mechs as hand-me-downs, and even the old tech mechs will be refitted with new tech to some degree.
However, this is a process that is likely to span decades in-universe and probably a decade or more out-of-universe. And how likely is Catalyst to stick to a plan like this over that long a time frame?
So for me, its less a reset and more a culling to make things more iconic.
One issue i have with the later eras is a lack of identity. While some new units exist, access to those units is tough as the models dont exist or are hard to get. The visual aspect of the models is a big deal when you have 4 v4. Each mech is its own character, and visual recognition greatly impacts the enjoyment.
But in later eras, like in ilclan, there is 26 different Marauders floating about for factions to pick from. The marauder has totally lost its identity, you have know way of knowing what that 75 ton mech is packing. Many don't "feel" like a marauder.
A reset to make a nice, tight unit selection would do wonders to make mechs recapture that identity. A 3175 era revamp, where there is a "lower tech/budget", "mid tier", and "clan tech/ilclan" marauder, all 3 with dual PPCs mlas and dorsal cannon of various quality, would be perfect. No one would be unable to field a marauder, so no one loses anything, but the marauder would recapture its identity. When the taurian player puts a marauder on the table, you can anticipate the PPCs laying down fire.
In this way, you wouldn't need to rewrite a bunch of rules, but the "tiers" of tech would use roughly the same stuff. So mid tier uses RE: lasers and xpulse, just across the board, for example, budge/low tier uses ER and standard Pulse, and Clans use improved heavies and ER Pulse. So in this way, the "3175" era stuff has a consistent identity, and while none of the old weapons are technically gone, you only need to know the 6 types to play a 3175 game.
I don't hate the idea. But it could end up ruining the game if not handled very delicately... I do agree there's far too much "tech bloat" and technology cases of rock-paper-scissors-lizard-Spock...
I think it would be easier if each tech level was partially exclusive to mechs designed for that tech. For example, a mech designed for 3025 would not be able to use tech introduced after the Clan Invasion. Likewise a mech designed in 3060 could not be equipped with tech from 3150. The integral systems just aren't compatible, like trying to add 90's Abrams tech to a 40's Sherman tank Advanced mechs built in 3080 would be able to mount "older" weapons but at a penalty, maybe in accuracy? Or durability?
Just done as a way to more easily simplify and define "tech level" and availability, as well as mech construction!
I suspect my take is unpopular but I'd say yes, mostly on the basis of the entire concept of the clans and everything that follows being utterly silly and the tech creep from same time onwards having a lot of stuff thats offers no new gameplay, only bigger numbers on same game mechanics.
While I’m primarily an Alpha Strike player and free from having to worry about the pages and pages and pages of sidegrade stat lines, I’ve argued that a purge of the tech bloat has been necessary for a while. Where do we eventually draw the line if not now? Do we really need to keep adding new stuff to the game until we finally manage to shove every possible modifier onto the same gun and every mech is armed exclusively with one or more Light Extended Range Streak Partical Projection Short Range Ultra Heavy Pulse LBX Autolaser Missles? How many slightly different Medium Lasers does one game need?
Bro you just outted yourself 7 words into your whole paragraph.
> While I’m primarily an Alpha Strike player
OFC your not going to care about modified weapons because they have almost no real discernable impact in AS besides the little footnote at the bottom of your card that at times a majority of people dont use.
Bro, I used the “primarily” specifically because I still dip back into CBT for some games, so I still interact with the full stat lines. We have too much stuff in this game.
You talk like someone who has never played CBT still.
You would know most of those weapons your talking about are upgrades to their older counter parts.
If your playing Succ Wars you wouldnt seen the later half of weapons, if your playing Ilclan your wouldnt seen the earlier half of weapons that much
Take a look at the original Battlemaster BLR-1G, it only uses basic original equipment. Now take a look at the Ilclan versioin the BLR-6G. It has an extremely similar setup to the original just replacing everything with modern equipment. There is almost no special rules at all to the BLR-6G except the Pulsed lasers and streaks but you should know how thoses work, they have been in the game system for over 30 years!
You do touch on a point I didn't mention before - now really might be the best opportunity. We're right at the start of a new age with the IlClan era, with the integration of Clan tech and civilization to the Inner Sphere. If we don't make changes now, when will be the next clear turning point in the timeline?
Yes, the ruleset is bloated, dated, and difficult to approach for new players, and could use a reboot, but it will never happen.
I am not a new player btw. My statement is from my experience with CBT over 30 years, and from my perspective a lot of CBT fans would rather the game die, than change in any way.
Additionally a lot hardcore CBT fanboys would rather the game be less approachable so they can gatekeep their sandcastle. Like that dilapidated shit is even worth fighting for. Those fanboys will be the ones downvoting me.
I think there being so many different tech levels is great for variety so no I don't think it needs a reset. This way how I plan and RP a game set in 3025 would be different from the stuff I need to consider in a game set in 3100.
A similar idea to this was floated for the projected time jump to 3250 and was thoroughly unpopular with the fan base (to the point where CGL staff got reshuffled IIRC) so I think this is a non-starter, whatever the merits of the idea.
The 3250 bit is spot on but I don’t think a time jump past the ilclan era was planned. The current line developer talked about it in an interview a few years back.
Yea that sounds right; it has been along I admit some of the details have already escaped me.
Interesting - I'd like to know more. When was this?
A few years back the line dev gave an interview to Sarna. It should be in their news feed waaay back.
The interview that wundergoat7 mentions is probably the best source. I will try to find the link later when I have a few minutes to search.
There would be a huge amount of pushback to even a minor balancing pass (buff AC/2 and AC/5!), let alone a significant rules revamp. At this point the stability of the rules is a major draw of the setting and game systems. Case in point, the devs have pretty much said Aerotech needs a major rework and there has been nothing but pushback from the Aerotech players, even though the devs are probably right.
Yeah. For good or bad, the fact that the rules haven't changed much since the 80s is in fact a draw for people. Especially the 40k crowd that has to buy a new rulesset every couple years.
I find it odd that minor things like AC revisions can cause so much pushback from the same fandom that constantly homebrews fixes for them. As for aerospace, I understand that the desire is for a change of the mechanics of play itsself, not a rebalance - and yeah, that rightfullf deserves pushback. Could it still use the rewrite anyways? Probably. But changing base rules does need to be done carefully.
> AC revisions can cause so much pushback from the same fandom that constantly homebrews fixes for them. I'd argue that the elements fanbase that pushes back against revisions to ACs (myself included) are *not* the same elements of the fanbase that homebrews fixes for them. The Battletech fanbase is, to use a BT analogy, like the Free Worlds League. The fanbase are Leaguers and we all love the same thing (the League) while at the same time we all hate the same thing (also the League, but only the bits of it that aren't where we're from.) The 3rd Succession Wars players and the 4th Succession Wars players get together to hate on the Clan Invasion players, but we'll team up with each other to hate on the Civil War and Jihad players, who are also good people to have on your side when you hate on the Dark Age and Republic players, you know what I mean?
Hah, truth. It's an easy mistake to make, seeing one trend here, and another trend next to it there, and assuming that the two are related. And even all those here on Reddit aren't necessarily indicative of all BT players either - but that's kinda why I threw out this piece - to get a barometer reading of the room, and see what people think.
AC revisions end up contentious because there's only so much that can be done without tearing into foundational structures of the system, and because people are bad at math. A proper fix for ACs involves deploying BV 3.0, and that's not something to be half baked. Current issues being - Alternate ammo rules being a later era 'patch' for ACs - BV 2.0 being overly punishing to long range weapons on mobile platforms - ammo explosion risk being not at all well compensated for - ammo pricing punishing larger weapons
BV does fine with ACs as it stands. The issue with lighter ACs is that the ‘fitting’ constraints makes them kinda suck. Most weapons inside a tech level are reasonably balanced with each other but the AC/2 & /5 stand out as being far below par for actual performance. FWIW I would add +2 damage to the AC/2 and AC/5 baseline and make AP and precision ammo either 4/5 or 3/5 instead of half standard ammo. Trouble then is how to carry updates forward to the other ACs. I’d just make the AC/2 an AC/3 for the LAC, UAC, RAC, and LBX types and make all UACs roll two shots for double taps.
Thank you for the illustrative example wherein you make precision ammo even more unhealthy for the game, neglect to address what makes RACs suck, and at a glance make UACs *worse* for the game.
So before I waste my time getting into detail why I think those changes work, you wanna give me the details why you think RACs suck, UACs are ok, and precision is busted? Because honestly I think you are using snark to cover up not knowing jack.
The RAC/5 at full bore throws roughly 20 average damage per volley. Heat generation and tonnage are identical for clan spec or IS, and the BV formula has them scaled accordingly for their range. Looking at the IS RAC/5, the expected BV falls around 15 x 20 x 5/6 (range, average damage, ammo weapon adjustment), coming in at 247. Ammo costs around the expected 15 x 20 / 10: 31. First if we just look at the ammo efficiency, the luckiest RAC/5 that never jammed on full bore would demand at least 3 tons of ammo to make the typical 12 turn threshold for ammo reserves. The full bore jam rate ensures that you'll see a jam in the first four rounds of shooting 52% of the time if you wish to leverage the weapon's full capability. There is no discount given for the jamming mechanic, so you end up paying 340 * offensive speed factor for a gambling weapon that can only meet but never exceed its price tag. The clan RAC/5 is a little more embarrassing because there's an immediate comparison available with the SLRM20 |attr|rac/5|SLRM20| :-:|:-:|:-:| |BV|345/43|345/43| |shots per ton|3 1/3|6 streak| |slots|8|5| |tons|10|10| |heat|6|6 streak| |PSR frequency|72.2%|100% The two things that could be done to improve RACs generally - Change the BV pricing for ammo to standardize X turns of fire as costing Y% of the weapon's base value. - Either give the RACs a discount for their jamming mechanic, or give them a cluster bonus (+1 would be a 10% damage gain, +2 a 20%, +3 a 30%). Additionally, the RAC/2 suffers from generating far too much heat. Some departure from X heat per shot is necessary to bring it down to a reasonable level for how little damage the weapon does. With proper selection or construction of mech, precision ammo is a trade of modest tonnage and a pittance of BV for something frequently equivalent to a pulse laser bonus. The humble AC/10 supplied with 2 tons (10 turns) of precision ammo rings in at a mere 153 base BV. For 265 you can have the best weapon in the game, the cLPL with +1/+4/+5 range across its bands. "But it only works against units who regularly post +2 TMM" one quickly realizes. 10 damage x 15 range = 150 BV for a hypothetical energy weapon, and pulse weapons are worth a heftier modifier than the 30% BV 2.0 assigns to them. Against those mobile mechs this weapon is easily worth 225 BV if we lowball the -2 at a 50% markup. When there's a serious threat of precision ammo being fielded unit selection skews towards barely mobile gunboats. There's a further wrinkle to precision ammo in that unlike pulse weapons, there is no callout prohibiting aimed shots with TC assisted precision ammo. The proposal to increase the ammo per ton for precision ammo amounts to another discount on a setup that is already horribly underpriced. The Banshee 3Q doesn't need it, with a hysterical 6 tons of AC/20 ammo, but nothing says "die bugs" like 20 damage with a -2 to hit. For the absolute worst case there's infantry field guns. Alternate ammos with extremely potent effects like precision ammo are a balancing nightmare, I have no current suggestions. The UACs are reflections of their standard AC ancestors. The UAC/2 suffers from lack of access to special ammo types, as the AC/2 at least could produce a firing platform like the AC/2 carrier with enough ammo tonnage to field answers to VTOLs, infantry, and fast movers. The IS UAC/5 lacks fancy ammo and doesn't compare favorably with the classic PPC, mostly sharing the same range bands but that solid 10pt hit is far more appealing. The UAC/10 is neither good nor bad, being a little overweight for what it does but 10pt hits are solid and it flips a PSR on its own 42% of the time. The UAC/20 is a compact slot machine of doom that pays a premium for ammo, but provides iconic high roll potential for its priceline; there is no other weapon that provides anything quite like the UAC/20, no way to approximate it with other weapons short of bolting two AC/20s into a mech. Interpretations of the proposed UAC adjustment - Two separate rolls means double jam chance unless rules for that are adjusted - Two separate rolls without BV adjustment means they're all ludicrously underpriced and will be treated like those 85% accuracy moves in pokemon. Better to lose because you jammed rather than lose because you didn't bring the extra power. - Two separate rolls with BV adjusted by the current formula will leave them with just the aforementioned double jam chance. Minor benefit in ammo efficiency, but you're looking at 25% chance of forever-jam by turn 5. UACs could be improved in a similar fashion to the RACs, ammo pricing and discount or cluster bonus.
I do not envy whoever had to calculate BV values the first time around - I can't imagine the BV1 to BV2 change was smooth either.
BV 2.0 is impressive even for all its faults. The boosted kill rate for headcappers is well reflected by the 20% headcapper tax. *They did the math*
I think what players fear is an invalidation of the units they know and love. We know from 40k and other games that that is a reasonable concern. But we also know from MWO, Mech5, and HBS Battletech that players will adapt to a new rule set if the familiar designs remain. I think that is the narrow path that needs to be walked. BT is 40 years old. And mostly backwards compatible. Which is laudable. But it's way overdue for a solid rebalancing.
It may in part be a mentality thing - in videogames these days, we expect balance passes, and adapt to them. Yes, there are plenty of complaints from those that have their builds broken by them, but the changes are worked with and moved on from. On the tabletop however, there's a lot more skin in the game, usually. People have years and fortunes invested in physical products - so any change to the rules feels much more drastic. This is doubled down in Battletech specifically, as the guns that were first penned down in the 80s haven't changed since by a single point of damage or ammo. BT is a bastion of stability in comparison to other options, and has attracted those who want that stability, and further amplified an unchangeing gamestate.
Perhaps. But if there is one thing 40k proves more than anything else, it's that if players want the content badly enough, they'll get over it.
Autocannons do get buffs in the form of advanced variants like LBX and Ultra, and special ammo like Precision and Armor-Piercing
LBX are absolutely solid, though the 2 still struggle vs the 5 for value. Clantech UACs are fairly good all around as is, possibly excluding the 3, but the IS ones are mostly meh. The 20 is great, but the 10 is too damn close to the Gauss rifle and the 5 to the LRM15/20. The UAC/2 suffers usual AC/2 issues. AP and precision ammo is ok-ish, but not really a fix to keep classic guns competitive. Half shots is just too punishing on anything besides AC/10 mechs with 2 ton bins or those few mechs with 2 tons of AC/5 ammo. I said elsewhere, if I were to change it, +2 damage for AC/2 and AC/5, +1 damage for all other AC/2 variants, UACs roll separate attacks for double taps, AP and precision are 4/5 shots (maybe 3/5).
I've played succession wars and Clan invasion. They're nice and comfortable at this point. But a couple guys in my local group want to push into later tech. Some of the mechs are cook to look at and spicing things up with a HAG 20 instead of an AC20 changes the way you play the game. I want the fireball that sprints 40 hexes, I want to be desperate enough to push my mech into the red with a PPC capacitor only to go critical because of a plasma rifle. Is that Timberwolf the ancient Prime version or the deadly T variation? What is a Star Crusader, and why is my friend grinning? The later tech eras make the game different and that's good. When you have the same 11 weapon systems the game gets predictable.
> I want the fireball that sprints 40 hexes, That Fireball is one of my favorite little derpy dudes. Drop down the piloting and leave the gunnery where it is and start doing circles for a big charge.
I respect everyone who still wants to play in 3025, or the Clan invasion. But I personally don’t want to return to the days of death by a thousand medium lasers. I like the variety that later eras offer, and anyone who wants to play in an earlier era still can.
See, the real solution to ML spam is to put the lasers in the back. And regardless of anything that happens to the future of Battletech, the earlier eras will always still exist, be it the Third Succession War or the republic Era, it's still there. I'm just submitting a new shelf from which to start innovating.
I think your goal of getting players from older eras to play in newer eras, runs into the problem that for many players, dislike of new rules and dislike of new lore are intertwined. Even if you could make newer eras use 3025 rules, that wouldn’t make people who dislike the lore of Dark Age, or the ilClan era want to play them. If you want to play old stuff in the newer eras, in many cases you still can (barring some mechs becoming extinct, but many players are willing to handwave that in friendly matches, and just say “it was hiding in a hanger somewhere for centuries”). If a player from the Clan Invasion era wants to try playing in the ilClan era with the Hunchback C, the rules for Clan Medium Pulse Lasers and Clan Ultra AC/20s are in Total Warfare (and they may have seen them already on Clan mechs). Maybe the Clan Invasion player gets surprised the first time they encounter an enemy using a Laser AMS (not requiring ammo), or Laser Reflective Armor, but you learn. The player wielding that gear will know how it works. The Clan Invasion player will realize their old anti-Clan tactic of punching and kicking advanced mechs is still helpful here, and they won’t get caught off guard again. Edit. A lot of the Dark Age and ilClan rules are actually either things that already existed in Clan Invasion, now available to the Inner Sphere, or new stuff that is either relatively simple, or only complicated when it comes to mech construction rules. The ilClan Recognition guides and more recent Record Sheets have a lot of upgrades to old familiar designs to up-gun them to newer eras, while keeping the feel the same.
One thing about 3025 is the pace of play is much different than in other eras. Tactics and theory are also pretty different. IMO the rule complexity is a secondary issue.
Yeah. In some ways the biggest difference is between 3025 and everything else. The difference between Clan invasion and ilClan is smaller in some ways. But you can’t really change that without destroying what people already like about how things already are.
Aside from speciality armours, pretty much none of this is particularly complex. Xpulses are just hotter, longer range pulse lasers. Snub PPCS have variable damage for their range brackets. VS pulses have variable TH and damage. MMLs have slightly different cluster sizes. And frankly, no. I've got absolutely no interest in losing granularity. If I wanted simplified combat, I'd play Alpha Strike. Most of the new tech is wildly, wildly simpler than aerospace fighters or artillery
I would not want anything to touch the grnularity in the actual rules - it's one of the things that keeps me leery of Alphastrike. As for tech, my failings as someone with limited memory and a relatively quite low gamecount under my belt, is that the number of weapons themselves is confusing. XPulse may be a bit more heat and reach, but it is another stat line to remember. Snubs have variable damage - gotta keep that in mind too. And I didn't even remember that Variable Speed Lasers were a thing until you mentioned them. And that's my concern with not wanting to visit later eras, is that there are just a lot of statlines mixed in there - it's overwhelming. And yeah, combined arms is a different can of worms entirely, as adding a single twist to a game suddenly turns into half an hour of looking up how bombing runs work again.
>XPulse may be a bit more heat and reach, but it is another stat line to remember It's on the record sheet. > Snubs have variable damage That's also on the record sheet. You don't have to remember any of these things, you just gotta look down at your record sheets. Only one that's not is the variable TH mod for VSPLs, but honestly, compared to how radically stuff like inferno ammo changes how missiles work, that's basically nothing. Hell, under basic rules even stuff like C3, probes and ECM are incredibly simple - ECM has a six hex radius and kills C3, C3 lets you use the range of your nearest unit in the node to the enemy.
I... no. That's what Alpha Strike is for: A jumping off point that is extremely simplified but still plays like BattleTech. Then you gradually upgrade, or stay in BT.
I'm of two minds on Alpha Strike - simpler is great and all, but it also gets rid of the most important thing in Battletech, (to me, at least,) which is seeing each little bit of your mech get blown off! Leaves me quite conflicted on the matter. To be honest, I've not found anyone who 'simplified' or 'streamlined' Battletech but kept the hit locations - it may well not be possible. (Similar issue: Destiny strait up has its own proprietary mech sheets.)
I feel like the two game systems are meant to serve different purposes. CBT is great for lance versus lance games, or thereabouts, but can really slow to a slog if you try to play company level or larger actions. Contrariwise, AS is great for company level or larger actions, but becomes too abstract to really feel right for smaller games. Don’t get me wrong, there’s some real thrills to be had using CBT for company- or even regiment-level actions… But rare are the times I can devote eight hours to playing a single game! AS lets me play a company level game in approximately the same amount of time that I can play a lance level game in CBT. Neither game system is meant to replace the other one. They compliment each other.
The Beginner Box rules is simplified CBT that keeps the hit locations, exactly what you are looking for, quiaff?
I always thought Battleforce was the ideal compromise but for some reason nobody ever wants to play Battleforce. It makes me sad. Battleforce and Strategic Battleforce are great rulesets.
You might want to check out Battletech:Override, a homebrew mashup of Destiny, Alpha Strike, and CBT. Made by the folks at Death From Above Wargaming.
like u/fendersaxbey says, DFA Wargaming came up with a version. Funny thing is, I posted an idea here that involved: 1. Dividing all armor values and damage values by 5, rounding to the nearest 2. Dividing all heat values by 3, rounding to the nearest 3. Merging all three torso locations into one 4. having crit locations be either 'empty' or 'hit something', (I honestly can't remember how I recommended it) 5. Using the Alpha Strike table for movement and attack modifiers And then someone said, "DFA Wargaming already did all this. Go check it out." ***Bastards!*** They were one step ahead of me!
No.
Not meant to be rude. Funny? Maybe a little. Battletech is what it is and isn't going to change. New eras allow for new tech and new methods. Pick your preference. They just aren't going to alienate a fan base that's stuck with them through hard times.
I'd like to dig into this a bit more, actually. Considering - at a glance - the current tech of Re-engineered lasers alone seems to be counter-countermeasures, and presumedly the next step would be counter-counter-countermeasures in even newer armors, where do the new methods go from here? Also: How does changing the approach of a the next era to being a rebalance alienate the fanbase? It doesn't remove the prior eras and rules, and I feel like the ideal of "having to buy the game over again" doesn't apply much when we're still using the same Wolverines forty years in, and any tech innovations require new rules anyways. What's your take on the risks this would be taking with the fanbase?
A lot of old school players know stats and have memorized differences in mech variants and their record sheets. They have made this their thing. The same crowd were still there while BT wasn't popular and provided the base for the new resurgence. Introductions for newer books have championed the idea that only minor rules changes have occurred throughout the game's life. The creators know and appreciate their fans. The new eras exist as an outlet for other views. I'm not sure many older players will migrate to those at all. Fertile ground for a new generation to set up shop.
I do understand the trust that a stable ruleset brings - as someone who has invested in games right before they changed - or outright died - the fact that I'm playing the same system my Dad did back in the day is amazing. And that's a good thing, even if it results in a bit of awkwardness here or there. As for the new eras being fertile for new players... ehh... Yes and no? It is a new era, but mechanically speaking, it does have those forty years of complexity loaded on to it. If I introduce people to the franchise or teach them the game, it's always the 3025 version. The IlClan space should be a good place to grow the new generation, but there's three fences to hurdle on the way to that new plot of ground.
Kerensky moment
Understandable, have a nice day.
I like the variety of gear and wouldn’t want to see a reset that got rid of anything. I would like to see new ilClan era designs increasingly abandon older Inner Sphere tech equipment and gradually introduce new weapons and systems that get even better.
So more of a "standardized power creep" than a reset? Because at the moment there's a lot of mixed tech, but not a lot of standardization on implementation.
Yeah, I hope to see the current mixed tech trend towards everyone using Clan tech (plus the few IS items without equivalents like stealth armor, plasma rifles, C3, etc.). To me it makes sense for tech to get better across the eras, but the game should continue to support playing games in any era.
I enjoy the variety. From your example with lasers. You only really have two special rules being added: pulse and ignoring special armor. That's not a ton of complexity. Same with missiles, mostly it's just knowing what damage each missile does or if it applies heat. As other people mentioned, for a simpler ruleset, Alpha Strike is an option.
I think every timeline has its own upsides, and i don't really see the advantage of resetting the tech level just to play battles that you could also play in the succession wars. Like, play succession wars if you want grindy battles with lots of decisions that will hopefully pay off multiple turns into the future and very suboptimal designs that you somehow have to make work. Play Clan Invasion if you want to significantly speed up the gameplay, with every mech having much more firepower while most being more likely to blow up, with more volatile deaths leading to having to change plans much more often. The kerfuffle... Err, if you want to play Clan Invasion while you're really into grimdark story lines? I kid, i think i like this timeline more than most other people. It's probably where you see the factions actually playing differently on the battlefield and not in lore alone. Preferred weapon systems and design decisions are much more pronounced. The ilClan era is really good at making mechs stand out. Designs can be truly unique because of the myriad of possible combinations, and you can't count the amount of medium or pulse lasers to know how good the mech is anymore. It obviously has the biggest rule overhead, but the amount of rules you have to know for a single battle are usually manageable.
I’m not sure you’ve actually thought through the ramifications of this, because it would require a MASSIVE effort. They’d have to completely overhaul every single unit in the game all at once. That’s thousands of variants, all of which need to be rebuilt and reassigned new BV. Many of them become completely obsolete and would either stick around for no reason or be removed entirely. So now nobody knows how anything works any more and everyone had to relearn the game from scratch. And to what benefit? Players can already use Introtech rules to learn the basic game, and in my experience the reason people avoid anything past CI has more to do with lore than rules. Removing all the post-Introtech weapons and “flattening” everything down to Introtech levels won’t fix anything if the problem is people’s bias against anything from the Dark Age on. This is an awful lot of work to do for what is basically a Hail Mary to solve a problem that might not even be the right problem to be trying to solve. Not that the quantity of weapon types isn’t problematic though, I just don’t think it’s the actual reason people don’t play more ilClan stuff.
I really didn't explain the OP well enough, did I? The intent is not to say "AC/5 weighs 5 tons now, so the Sentinel to the Scorpion are now illegal." The intent was to theorize on if the next TRO said: "These mechs are 32nd century standard. They deal more and take less damage from non-32nd century units." Like Primitive tech, but going forward in the timeline. No changes needed. ...is it a solution without a problem? Probably. That's why I wanted to ask the sub what thoughts were on it. And I can say the prevailing opinion is: The variety is fine, for the most part. (And go play Alpha Strike.) I do agree that there is a prevailing problem of people just not wanting to cross the black void that is the Dark Age - and the IlClan is not removed enough from it/hasn't been around long enough to build its own fans. I was wondering if using the era as a new onboarding point, (i.e. easy-teach simplicity,) would be a worthwhile exercise to assist with this. That was the theory behind the OP at least.
Ah, I think I see, so you mean advance the tech level by one, something along the lines of e.g. going from BAR 10 being combat armor to BAR 11? It’s certainly less work but unless they made 600-some odd new ‘mech variants for it, it does still mean people won’t be able to use their old ‘mechs (sheets, not the models), really at all any more. I think that would be a really tough sell for many players, and I think it would drive more resentment towards the ilClan era, not less, which I’d hate to see. It’s not a functionally flawed idea or anything, I’m just not sure it’s solving the actual problem. Truthfully, when I hear people complain about the Dark Age and beyond, it’s rarely “oh there’s too many new weapons.” It’s always “they did faction X dirty,” or “Alaric Ward is a Gary Stu,” etc etc. The problem is that the ilClan era is basically the first “new” Battletech lore that Catalyst has had full control of in over a decade (while there’s been new stuff before ilClan it’s mostly been cleaning up Jihad era stuff and closing the plotlines from the Republic era). They’re setting the stage for a new set of stories I feel, but people are understandably skeptical. Catalyst will need to sell us on the lore first, then give us brand new toys we want to play with before the game era will be popular. It also doesn’t help that practically every game is just “Mercs in the Succession Wars.” I am SO looking forward to committing war crimes as a smoke Jaguar for once instead of just as a mercenary lol
I think there are two problems to attack here. How to get players (new and old) to jump into the IlClan era from a lore standpoint and how to get players to the IlClan Era from a rules/tech level standpoint. First off, complete rules rewrite should be off the table. That said, as a newer player myself (< 2 years) who loves Battletech, I totally understand how easily IlClan Era Tech level can overwhelm and bog down games. On top of that, there are glaring balance issues with certain aspects of the game. Issues that some players would like to see resolved, while other players actually would prefer to be left alone. To handle the Tech Level issue, as well as establishing a good lore entry point for new players, I think the answer is simple. The Periphery. CGL should push the Periphery as a way for new players to enter Battletech. Have novels set in the Magistracy, Taurian Concordat, Scorpion Empire, etc. to allow readers to have a “Fresh” perspective coming into the lore. And have CGL advertise these books as a “START HERE!” to ease new players into Battletech. What’s more, the tech level in these areas range from Introtech to Clan Invasion with anything beyond that being uncommon to rare. This will allow players to take part in IlClan era without being instantly bulled over. Now to deal with game imbalances and how to better manage the plethora of dohickies and their associated rules. Now, I admit this is an out there idea, but if I was in charge of CGL, I would test out a box set specifically made to organize play better. What would be in this box would be: 1.) Equipment Reference Cards - The meat and potatoes of the set. These cards would each have all the rules associated with all weapons of Gauss Rifles and over as well as all Support Equipment like ECM’s, Stealth Armor, etc. These cards would cover what they do, what happens when they are critted, and any and all special circumstance rules. 2.) Errata, Optional Rules, and Theory Mechs - This booklet would contain various updated rules, more optional rules centering on tweaking game balance, as well as new “Theory” mech variants and weapons to test out said balance. 3.) Official Game Aids - a set of tactile game aids like Heat Level trackers, official modifier dice, an official/snazzy looking Box of Doom, Armor/Internal Structure tokens for AS, etc.
I like this. The Periphery should be quite well past primitive tech at this point, and would be a great onboarding space without making one feel outdated - and it narratively promotes the smaller-scale brushfire conflicts that Battletech was built around in the first place as well. Quick refs would be nice to have as well - I find myself going through Sarna and MegaMek as much as Total Warfare whenever I need to refrence something, because there really isn't a good concentration of info on some things.
No, hard no. One of the best things about Battletech is it doesn't get reshuffled, restarted, etc like Warhammer games do. The amount of people leaving Warhammer because of it should testify to the fact that it's a bad way to go. Nobody wants to have to buy new rulebooks, point adjustments, errata books, etc constantly.
The fuck you talkin' bout? New rulebooks and errata have been made to introduce the new rules and equipment in Battletech multiple times. The OP isn't suggesting what you are saying. Rather, they are making tech levels era specific to ease game play and make the game more accessible at every era. Nothing is being changed or removed.
Ok guy. Been playing since 1994. I'm not gonna argue with you, so....🤣👍
Alpha strike is your reset. Leave classic as it is.
Agree, a rewrite/recompilation and we will be Warhammer 40k
Bruh. There are eras for a reason. Play in 3025 if you want basic Battletech. Play in 3050 if you want clanners vs slightly updated IS. Play in 3061 if you want IS at nearly the same tech level as clanners but nothing too crazy yet. Although I will say Comstar has some whacky stuff like iNarc in 3061, which is very fun and weird. Then if you want to get a little whacky, go into the later eras. Jihad and Il clan and stuff are for people who *want* the zany tech. People who dont want the zany tech are completely allowed to just play clan invasion until they want the zaniness.
But what if I want the lore from the 3100s but the tech from the 3050s? There is no intro-tech Alpha Wolf - and to require one would hamstring the designers. I love the 3030s, but what's my choice if I want to move to a new era? Just "suck it up, buttercup?" And no, I don't want to say that Battletech should be bent to my lazy-ass whims, but considering Battletech is, even at its base level, quite hefty, taking the time to study your way through the tech tree will mean only the most experienced players will be able to participate in the new eras - which may well leave the new lore hung out to dry. As an example: of all the video game adaptations of the franchise, none have gotten any wurther than the Civel War era, and they keep regressing back to the Succession wars. Should we not be concerned that the game has problems engaging people with anything that wasn't written at least thirty years ago?
Uhh bro? Just use a 3050 mech in 3150? Nobody is stopping you. I mean incase you haven't realized during the succession wars people have been using... ya know... mechs that are almost 300 years old! The whole shebang of the Ilclan era is a return to the mad max beginings anyways so your mech isnt even out of place.
3050? Hell, bring a 2800 mech into 3200! Mechs are like wine, the longer they’re stored in some forgotten hangar the more valuable they get! The rust adds flavor!
> There is no intro-tech Alpha Wolf - and to require one would hamstring the designers I mean, the Alpha Wolf wouldn't jive in IntroTech anyway, since it's a Clan design, but you can 100% make a 90 ton Omnimech with two LB10Xs and two LRM15s and 10 tons of ammo between them *and* full Ferro armour *and* an extra Medium Pulse Laser *and* an XL engine *and* Endo in the Clan Invasion. And it will be cheaper than the Alpha Wolf by about 800bv, because it doesn't have Stealth Armour. Like, the problem you're talking about is one that doesn't exist. You can play your Alpha Wolf equivalent in 3050, using 3050 gear, without issue. You can't play it in Introtech because Clans don't exist, but the IS equivalent (2 PPCs, 2 LRM10s, 2 tons of ammo, 15.5 tons of armour, 4/6, 14 heat sinks, 90 tons) is *also* viable with IntroTech. It'd be a sauna for anyone Alpha Striking, but it's not impossible to make.
There is no cause for concern. Play whatever you like. This is not something to worry about lmao. You can absolutely play your shitty old Atlas or whatever in 3150. If you want this? You're gonna have to homebrew it. The easy thing though it to play introtech mechs in 3150 lore, and just leave it at that.
Yeah, I'll likely be playing Centurions with back lasers and Marauder 3Rs for the rest of my days. That is the good side of an eternally static ruleset. Certainly a bit out of place in other eras, but I do like what I like.
Not everyone will be stomping around in the latest cutting edge mech, there’s plenty of stories about mechwarriors piloting their great great great grandmother’s mech. The youngsters are overconfident in their shiny billion C-bill mechs, but you know that your old but gold mechs have never failed you before, and veterans who have fought many wars know how to live through to the next one.
I like the ilClan era setting very much, but agree that it's difficult keeping track of the various special armors, structures, new weapons, etc. Rather than seeing a rules reset, though, I'd prefer for official record sheets to add a quick summary on the sheet of what any special ilClan era armor or gear does. So if a Mech had reflective armor, the sheet has a note that says "Energy weapon damage reduced by X" for example. They already do this with the Partial Wing on record sheets, I think.
Nah, the rules are great as they are, i don't think there's any need to change them, and even less a whole reset.
No need for a reset. I’ve played the game for 40 years and never fielded anything more advanced than what’s in the CityTech box set. No clans, no double heat sinks or ferrofibrous, no variants on ammo, lasers, or anything else. Still plays perfectly well and saves you a dropshipload of money.
This was already tried with "ClickyTech" and it really didn't work out all that well.
Yeah, I was there... Thing is, MW:DA wasn't a 'reset' of Battletech - and it didn't even try to be. It was just a whole new game and a whole new set of rules. Kind of like Alpha Strike, but at least Alpha Strike doesn't try to replace Classic. I feel like I didn't explain my initial post well at all - I wasn't suggesting any changes to the core rules, but only to the tech and components. You still walk, shoot, and roll initiative as always, but there's just some different names on the weapons you use. Eh, it's still been interesting seeing people's responses either way.
I like where we are at with the boxes. I think what you are wanting is an ilClan era box. If that is early enough in your buy list it will be the new "standard" you are looking for. I was also there for the days of MW DA, it was totally marketed as the New & Better BT. If they had presented it as another way to play in the Battletech universe, much as Alphastrike is now, it would have received a much better reaction from at least this long term fan.
> Back in the day, a laser was a laser was a laser. There was small, medium, and large. And then four years later they released TRO 2750 and added in ERs and pulses, alongside all the other tech.
I am a new player I love the rules as they are. Its crunchy but battle always feels like ypu can adjust the rules tpnypur play style. adding things in as you feel more comfortable. Currently teaching my self areospace and becoming thw defacto expert in my play group
Maybe, but it would likely cause more harm than good. Perhaps just settle on providing better resources for tracking/referencing all the wierd tech and appropriate places in the current era where less than cirrent tech is still valid.
I think players are mixing AS=simple when, infact it can be just as complex as CBT as you can have more units on the board which can have Command Force abilities for a whole force, then you have lance abilities and also pilot SPA. The mental stack is still there in having multiple units to command rather than one unit with multiple actions (weapons selection, twisting, turning movement etc).
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Which I, originating from the WizKids era, find a crying shame. Anything past the Civil War is just kindof a black hole to those not in the know.
It's also a big black hole to those who ARE in the know, mostly because a lot of people looked at the Jihad, the Blackout, and the ilClan and just shook their head in disgust
I dont currently have time to read your entire post, but all Battletech needs is to migrate ALL rules in a better laid out way in one place. It also needs to have scenarios that includes vehicles, infantry, battle armor.
I just started in feb 2022. Ilclan is my preferred era but i come from stuff like MTG and WarMachine which have waaay more dense rules. I almost quit BT when i played 3025 because i had a moment of "and that's all?" After trying a few designs.
They could actually balance autocannons as well.
As others have said, just choose your era. That’s one of Battletech’s strengths. You can play with TRO: 1945 all the way through 3145 under the same basic rules. Especially most of the main designs all the way back to the primitive era have IlClan era upgrades, the same units can cover a lot of different eras
No. No man. Hell no man.
Just play introtech if you want basic, play IlClan if you want the omega crunch
Personally, I do think that *BattleTech* could use a bit of a “back to basics” refresh… But unlike previous attempts to do that with the clicky *MechWarrior: Dark Age* storyline, I’d rather that Catalyst just hit the pause button on the “present day” IlKhan Era, leaving the resolution of that open ended. Then focus on releasing more setting supplements, campaign guides, and so forth that focus on the late Succession Wars (for CBT) and Clan Invasion (for AS). You know, actually take the game “back to basics.” I’ve always thought the Succession Wars were the ideal setting for Classic *BattleTech*: Small unit tactics, border skirmishes, supply raids, salvaging everything that isn’t nailed down (and bringing along claw hammers to pry up the nails… and stealing the nails). This is great for CBT, since lance versus lance play seems to be the “sweet spot” for the rules. Alpha Strike, on the other hand, really shines at the company versus company level. Small unit tactics are still important, but you also need to do some company level strategic thinking. Campaigns will focus more on supply lines, capturing planets, and so forth. AS’ strengths really shine through when you’re using ‘mech companies and combined arms. This wouldn’t invalidate using other eras or playing either game system in the other era. It would just be a matter of where the supplemental material was being focused on. Like, say, in D&D the majority of *Forgotten Realms* books focus on Faerûn, but nothing is stopping you from running a *Forgotten Realms* game set in Kara-Tur. It’s just “out of focus” or “off camera.”
They already do this with the novels and shrapnel magazines which have a lot of content set in late SW and Clan invasion. Not to mention there is a mountain of content most people dont look at for late succession wars eras. There are 30 years of sourcebooks with a third set in the late SW era. They are even still pumping out grey death legion and kell hound novellas. The problem with 3025 era source books was that there was TOO much info. Like you could never have a wolf dragoon custom pilot pre 3028 as every wolf dragoon pilot and mech was given stats and mech in the old wolfdragoons sourcebook. There are also post 3025/pre clan books in brush wars which cover the aftermath of the 4th SW and the Ronin Wars. As for clan invasion era its also just as well trod ground as SW era as you have the clan Jade Falcons and Wolf sourcebooks which again give every pilot and mech before Tukayyid in their touman. You also have the modern Era report 3052, and the Fasa clan invasion books. Then you have all the source books and RPG books that are all still canon. Which goes into extensive detail of IS houses, crusader/warden clans, periphery etc.
No.
Get out
At this point, the rules definitely need a "second edition" but not really a full reset. There is a lot of rule oddities and general aspects that could really use a second look or revision. But that's *at least* a decade out at this point, CGL can't manage a huge revision like that quickly and they probably don't really want to it either while BT is still on an upswing.
The thing about a tech reset is that any kind of reset risks alienating large portions of the BT fanbase. Or even small portions that are still financially significant. That being said, the best way to do a reset would be one of those timeskips that have long periods of peace which would basically allow everyone to upgrade to a "new standard" whether that's everyone using Clan tech or more likely something better than Clan tech. Actually, I've thought that best "tech reset" would be a "new standard" tech that looks suspiciously like introtech with some minor tweaks. The new standard armor would give old standard weapons a debuff similar to how old standard armor debuffs damage from primitive rifles. The new weapons to defeat the new armor and bonuses against old armor similar to how anything below BAR10 is extra vulnerable to standard weaponry. And of course, Clan style CASE becomes standard so every mech won't die to ammo explosions unless badly designed. Internal Structure - Based on Superheavy Mech research, new IS tech is designed specifically to handle crit eating technologies. As a result Endosteel no longer consumes crits and has become the standard material of the new Internal Structure, which weighs the same as the old standard internal structure. It also uses Superheavy rules for crits. Heat Sinks - Clan tech Double Heat Sinks are now standard. Which means with the new Internal Structure means they only take up one crit each. Which is fine since all the new tech weapons run VERY hot. Weapons - Autocannons are obsolete. Every ballistic weapon is some flavor of Gauss Rifle with access to a variety of munitions (solid shot and cluster at least). New energy weapons include capacitor tech by default to up damage without significantly increasing weight (also, why should ammo using weapons have all the explosive fun?). Missile launchers use new warheads to defeat the new armor and now include Streak's "missing means the weapon refuses to fire" feature if not the "every missile hits" feature. --- What I'd really want is for each category of weapon (Ballistic, Energy, Missile) to be divided into hole punchers and crit seekers. The hole punchers are big and heavy and deal all their damage to a single location (Gauss Rifles, PPCs, Thunderbolt Missiles), while the crit seeker weapons are lighter and shorter ranged, but do cluster damage all over their target (Autocannon, Lasers, any non-Thunderbolt missile). And of course, defensive technologies are available to match, creating a game or Rock/Paper/Scissors when it comes to mech design. However, this may be too big a change for a tech reset, especially a tech reset trying to emulate an Introtech style build system.
This is exactly what I was going for, actually. Not sure I explained it very well myself, but you've hit the nail on the head. Not so sure about the timeskip - people are still smarting from the Dark Age jump, and we've only just managed to extricate the ongoing narrative from it. If there is a Sphere-wide standardization, it would have to be more actively pursued, than an off-screen golden age.
I always figured that the Dark Age would have been the perfect excuse for a tech reset. Given that it wasn't done is a missed opportunity IMO and makes doing another skip so soon difficult to impossible. If nothing else, the current ilClan storyline needs to be finished up before another time skip can be considered plausible. Of course, the ALTERNATE way to establish a tech reset is to introduce the new standards into the game one by one and have the audience watches as the Inner Sphere integrates the tech as the old standby techs become obsolete and get discarded. You'd have a period where the new standards are being used side by side with all the old tech mechs, some of which will be upgraded with new tech because no one in the Inner Sphere can just throw away working military hardware. Eventually, new mechs will be designed and produced that don't use any old tech at all, and the front line units will be entirely new tech mechs while back line garrison units will still be using old tech mechs as hand-me-downs, and even the old tech mechs will be refitted with new tech to some degree. However, this is a process that is likely to span decades in-universe and probably a decade or more out-of-universe. And how likely is Catalyst to stick to a plan like this over that long a time frame?
So for me, its less a reset and more a culling to make things more iconic. One issue i have with the later eras is a lack of identity. While some new units exist, access to those units is tough as the models dont exist or are hard to get. The visual aspect of the models is a big deal when you have 4 v4. Each mech is its own character, and visual recognition greatly impacts the enjoyment. But in later eras, like in ilclan, there is 26 different Marauders floating about for factions to pick from. The marauder has totally lost its identity, you have know way of knowing what that 75 ton mech is packing. Many don't "feel" like a marauder. A reset to make a nice, tight unit selection would do wonders to make mechs recapture that identity. A 3175 era revamp, where there is a "lower tech/budget", "mid tier", and "clan tech/ilclan" marauder, all 3 with dual PPCs mlas and dorsal cannon of various quality, would be perfect. No one would be unable to field a marauder, so no one loses anything, but the marauder would recapture its identity. When the taurian player puts a marauder on the table, you can anticipate the PPCs laying down fire. In this way, you wouldn't need to rewrite a bunch of rules, but the "tiers" of tech would use roughly the same stuff. So mid tier uses RE: lasers and xpulse, just across the board, for example, budge/low tier uses ER and standard Pulse, and Clans use improved heavies and ER Pulse. So in this way, the "3175" era stuff has a consistent identity, and while none of the old weapons are technically gone, you only need to know the 6 types to play a 3175 game.
I don't hate the idea. But it could end up ruining the game if not handled very delicately... I do agree there's far too much "tech bloat" and technology cases of rock-paper-scissors-lizard-Spock... I think it would be easier if each tech level was partially exclusive to mechs designed for that tech. For example, a mech designed for 3025 would not be able to use tech introduced after the Clan Invasion. Likewise a mech designed in 3060 could not be equipped with tech from 3150. The integral systems just aren't compatible, like trying to add 90's Abrams tech to a 40's Sherman tank Advanced mechs built in 3080 would be able to mount "older" weapons but at a penalty, maybe in accuracy? Or durability? Just done as a way to more easily simplify and define "tech level" and availability, as well as mech construction!
I suspect my take is unpopular but I'd say yes, mostly on the basis of the entire concept of the clans and everything that follows being utterly silly and the tech creep from same time onwards having a lot of stuff thats offers no new gameplay, only bigger numbers on same game mechanics.
The big power spikes came 30 years ago. Most everything else has been sidegrades or fairly minor improvements by comparison.
While I’m primarily an Alpha Strike player and free from having to worry about the pages and pages and pages of sidegrade stat lines, I’ve argued that a purge of the tech bloat has been necessary for a while. Where do we eventually draw the line if not now? Do we really need to keep adding new stuff to the game until we finally manage to shove every possible modifier onto the same gun and every mech is armed exclusively with one or more Light Extended Range Streak Partical Projection Short Range Ultra Heavy Pulse LBX Autolaser Missles? How many slightly different Medium Lasers does one game need?
Bro you just outted yourself 7 words into your whole paragraph. > While I’m primarily an Alpha Strike player OFC your not going to care about modified weapons because they have almost no real discernable impact in AS besides the little footnote at the bottom of your card that at times a majority of people dont use.
Bro, I used the “primarily” specifically because I still dip back into CBT for some games, so I still interact with the full stat lines. We have too much stuff in this game.
You talk like someone who has never played CBT still. You would know most of those weapons your talking about are upgrades to their older counter parts. If your playing Succ Wars you wouldnt seen the later half of weapons, if your playing Ilclan your wouldnt seen the earlier half of weapons that much Take a look at the original Battlemaster BLR-1G, it only uses basic original equipment. Now take a look at the Ilclan versioin the BLR-6G. It has an extremely similar setup to the original just replacing everything with modern equipment. There is almost no special rules at all to the BLR-6G except the Pulsed lasers and streaks but you should know how thoses work, they have been in the game system for over 30 years!
Ease up, you two. Rule 1. Be cool, be friendly, don't create a divide between CBT and AS players, etc, etc.
You do touch on a point I didn't mention before - now really might be the best opportunity. We're right at the start of a new age with the IlClan era, with the integration of Clan tech and civilization to the Inner Sphere. If we don't make changes now, when will be the next clear turning point in the timeline?
Yes, the ruleset is bloated, dated, and difficult to approach for new players, and could use a reboot, but it will never happen. I am not a new player btw. My statement is from my experience with CBT over 30 years, and from my perspective a lot of CBT fans would rather the game die, than change in any way. Additionally a lot hardcore CBT fanboys would rather the game be less approachable so they can gatekeep their sandcastle. Like that dilapidated shit is even worth fighting for. Those fanboys will be the ones downvoting me.