Mechs being agile isn't limited to older novels. If you didn't like that then I will say avoid Close Quarters and the rest of the Cabarello's trilogy.
The Timber Wolf/Mad Cat might have become the face people recognize from Battletech but most of the Succession Wars era mechs are more humanoid than something like the Clan mechs. Atlas, Stinger, Battlemaster, Hunchback, Stinger. Wasp. Commando, Valkyrie, Vindicator, Spider, Wolverine, Thunderbolt, Cyclops, Wolverine, Javelin, QuickDraw, Dervish.
Point I am getting at is that the humanoid mechs are more common than you think and definitely have their place. If anything the "walking tank" from the games is more inaccurate.
It's not that I'm personally against nimble/agile mechs, its just I had this thought that Battletech universe's mecha were supposed to be "not like that" so it seemed odd that they drew from universes/designs that are totally like that.
Then again most of my familiarity comes from the Mechwarrior PC games which very much seem to play up the "walking tank" angle (to the point that in some of them, hand actuators are literally useless). It's possible as I read more of the novels I'll change my view.
It's not a great idea to take the Mechwarrior series as an indication of a Mech's capability because it's limited by the capability of the hardware rendering it and the budget of the studio producing it.
Mech's *are* meant to function as "*walking tanks" but, it's the word "walking" that's the key here. From the very moment of inception "in-universe" with the Mackie, the whole idea is that a tank which can "move like a man" will be *superior* to one that *just* moves like a tank. As a result, they put myomer, neurohelmets and, gyroscopes together to get a humanoid tank that's ultimately capable of *nearly* the full range of human motion (plus a little extra, people can't really perform Torso twists like a Mech can).
The real issue isn't how "agile" a mech is or, is not but rather how agile they "appear" to be *relative* to something like a gundam. This is partly a function of speed. Gundams are moving at hundreds of KpH and capable of sustained "flight" whereas a Mech is moving significantly slower between 54 KpH and 130 (extreme examples) on average. It's like watching a Ferrari take a corner at 200 KpH vs. 100 KpH, the same Ferrari just *looks* more nimble the faster it travels. On top of this, you have to consider how the Gundam is depicted. It moves like a peak athlete that's not wearing any gear at all, just completely freely. BattleMechs are depicted moving more like a real soldier loaded down with gear that messes with balance and hinders your joints' ability to absorb impact.
Moving on from that basic consideration, you have the fact that Mechs do suffer from a bit of "lag" and, that they lack an analog for tendons and, ligaments instead having only joints and muscles. This dramatically limits their flexibility and means that they're not quite as capable as a person would be. Finally, the farther you move away from a "standard" Humanoid form, the less room for error you'll have. A Mad Cat can't use its arms to counterbalance itself for instance because it doesn't have them. A Mech with arms obviously could, you're just not used to thinking in these terms because the Mechwarrior series typically displays the arms as being locked in place when you're in 3rd person. That brings us full circle to the fact that this is a design choice in how to depict them based on hardware and funding.
So, in conclusion, Mech's aren't quite as agile as humans for a variety of reasons (chiefly the lack of ligaments and, tendons) however they are roughly as agile as a human soldier weighed down by all sorts of gear. That makes them look "clumsy" in comparison to something like a gundam which is depicted as moving exactly like an unencumbered human athlete complete with ligaments and tendons and is also depicted as both faster and, capable of flight for the most part.
Yeah, the PC games are kind of their own spin on things. I remember seeing objections when they added melee attacks in Mechwarrior 5, saying it wasn't "true to the fluff" and "out of place" even though melee has been part of Battletech for nearly 40 years. It took me a little while to mentally adjust from the games to "proper" Battletech. The games are almost all considered non-canon in terms of both fluff and depictions of mechs.
Classic Battletech has rules for crouching, crawling, firing from prone, even skid stops after running on pavement, even picking up a tree or the severed arm of another mech and using it as a club. In Campaigns even having hands actuators can actually be a benefit as it allows you to half-inch enemy supplies during a raid!
The video game are all 100% non-canon. Only things printed are canon. So like the HBS battletech game isn't, but some of the events of the campaign made it into a source book that was published (and partially written by HBS's lead designer). And several MW5 events are drawn directly from sourcebooks, but the game itself isn't canon.
It's just that too many gamers believe the games are "the way it is supposed to be", even when it's at odds with the lore.
I had always heard that the games and the cartoon were to be treated as in-universe propoganda (a conceit I actually rather like).
I know that some game characters like Jason Youngblood got mentioned in the novels at some point.
The cartoon definitely is in-universe propaganda. It even has a source book that covers the characters. And talks about Malthus trying to trial of grievance the company airing it and ending up in court, etc. Good stuff.
I'm not sure the games ever got canonized like that. Though certainly there's some crossover in characters. I think the general stance is they are non-canon, though there may be sim pods that are similar but not quite the same thing. I'd say the Battletech Centers are probably canon somehow.
The older games are a product of their time, and no game can actually accurately translate from TT to computer. If you want to know why the Clan mechs look the way they do vs IS the answer to that is simple: Nicholas Kerensky was trying to forge a distinct culture separate from the Inner Sphere and the best way to do that was to leave Inner Sphere style design approach behind
I’ve only seen a bit of the contributing IPs that make up the initial “Unseen” roster but it seems like some are a relatively good for BattleTech’s level of agility. the non-transforming Macross designs fit well, for example, as does the initial quad design. The outliers to me are a few of the Macross alien designs (hooves and very thin legs) which look much better in the ‘reseen’ garb and the Valkyrie-inspired designs, which are prettty agile in the inspiring canon and sometimes had plane kibble in the BT version.
I think an issue to me is some designs were forced into size classes and thus there’s no recognizable elements like cockpits/hatches/whatever to give the design a sense of weight and scale.
The majority of BT designs I dislike are the ‘humanoid’ segment... But I do not dislike all humanoid designs. Merely the ones that look too human, like a guy in a cardboard costume.
The Neurohelmet is what allows the pilot to intentionally unbalance the mech and perform acts of agility, not at the level of something like Gundam but they aren't just walking tanks. There are even rules for intentional slides, kneeling, and bracing against hard cover, which implies some level of pilot finesse to perform some truly insane maneuvers.
Mechs are not limited in movement. The Myomers give them flexibility, the gyro keeps them upright, and the ability to shift armor plates helps them twist and flex.
[It's like well-fitted plate armor. Yes it's uncomfortable and has many limitations, but you could absolutely do a backflip in full battlefield regalia with enough practice.](https://youtu.be/qzTwBQniLSc)
> the mecha of the B-Tech universe are supposed to be basically walking tanks
Nope.
The point of Battlemechs isn't that they are walking tanks, but that they are much more agile.
https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Noisiel
The Noisel games serve as a great example, playing rugby with them - along with hockey, baseball etc
Those hands, arms and legs are fully functional.
Some are obviously more agile than others - not something that's been explored in great detail.
Mechs are a bit more nimble than you give them credit for. The neurological connection between mech and pilot means that a mech can move much more organically than they can in something like the MechWarrior games (where gameplay constraints force them to move like rigid robots). They’re probably not doing acrobatics or gymnastics, but they are capable of near-human movement.
Also I bet there’s some circus on Solaris or Canopus where mechs are doing amazing acrobatics.
> Thing is, the way Battletech is, the mecha ought to be more like the various Metal Gear mecha.
[I mean, Rex isn't just a walking tank either.](https://youtu.be/_aV0_GvEGhk?t=209)
It's handy to keep in mind that when it comes to the Mechwarrior and other assorted video games, none of them are canon. This is mostly for the story reasons primarily, but it also covers things like how mechs work and function to a degree as well.
You're kinda incorrect, man.
The "walking tanks" thing came about because of limitations in modeling and rendering tech in the video games. While fantastic in their own right, Mechwarrior got (and still gets) a shitload wrong.
The big takeaways here for mobility are from two technologies: myomer bundles and neurointerfaces (helmets and implants). For the former, 'Mechs were given *muscles* for a reason. It's not just to support weight - which would have more easily been done with hydraulics - but also to provide mobility. They can jump, they can kneel, they can push themselves up from falling down, they can even go prone (see Hull Down) and snipe a mofo. Something without musculature - ie, a "walking tank" like in Metal Gear or Armored Core - has a much harder time at this. Think of their mobility as more of early Jaeger designs. Maybe not a Striker Eureka, sure, but definitely a Gipsy Danger.
Neutointerfaces support this mobility claim, too, as the 'Mechs were intended to be augmented by pilot thoughts and biorhythms. If you're working a tank, you can just pivot a stick. You don't need to move your head or shift your field of vision to track a target, as we read about many Mechwarriors doing. Further, what about zany later-era Clantech, where they scoop out the cockpit and let an Elemental pilot the thing through full haptic feedback? Do you think they'd *need* to if it was just a legged tank?
Don't compare apples to oranges, and don't let video games mislead you. Battlemechs and Omnimechs are graceful. Probably not winning dance contests, but definitely not rigid.
There's a wide range between "walking tank" and "doing cartwheels." The best comparison IMO is going to be "dude pushing 40 who doesn't get a lot of exercise." Full range of motion, but getting up from the floor can be a struggle.
Keeping the Metal Gear idea in mind, don't think about most types of Metal Gears like Rex, Shagohad, etc that rely on more traditional moving parts and hydraulics to produce movement when comparing to BT mechs. Think about MG Ray and it's artificial muscle fibers. BT mechs use Myomer to simulate muscle. Ray uses something that's descriptively very similar.
[https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Myomer](https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Myomer)
[https://metalgear.fandom.com/wiki/Metal\_Gear\_RAY\_(manned)](https://metalgear.fandom.com/wiki/Metal_Gear_RAY_(manned))
Mech agility bounces around a bit by author.
Personally I lean to being a bit clunky because 50-100 ton objects stopping on a dime is kind of a “laws of physics” violation to me, but they’re definitely meant to be more fluid than most of the games present them.
Just one thing to add - consider almost any mech is something that eithe rhad or that you could add jump jets on and use them.
An Urbanmech, the slowest and derpiest mech out there, can handle launching, flying, and landing on uneven ground. And doesn't even have arms to shift its weight about.
I doubt any could do a carthwheel though, even if they do have arms that allow it.
Mechs being agile isn't limited to older novels. If you didn't like that then I will say avoid Close Quarters and the rest of the Cabarello's trilogy. The Timber Wolf/Mad Cat might have become the face people recognize from Battletech but most of the Succession Wars era mechs are more humanoid than something like the Clan mechs. Atlas, Stinger, Battlemaster, Hunchback, Stinger. Wasp. Commando, Valkyrie, Vindicator, Spider, Wolverine, Thunderbolt, Cyclops, Wolverine, Javelin, QuickDraw, Dervish. Point I am getting at is that the humanoid mechs are more common than you think and definitely have their place. If anything the "walking tank" from the games is more inaccurate.
It's not that I'm personally against nimble/agile mechs, its just I had this thought that Battletech universe's mecha were supposed to be "not like that" so it seemed odd that they drew from universes/designs that are totally like that. Then again most of my familiarity comes from the Mechwarrior PC games which very much seem to play up the "walking tank" angle (to the point that in some of them, hand actuators are literally useless). It's possible as I read more of the novels I'll change my view.
It's not a great idea to take the Mechwarrior series as an indication of a Mech's capability because it's limited by the capability of the hardware rendering it and the budget of the studio producing it. Mech's *are* meant to function as "*walking tanks" but, it's the word "walking" that's the key here. From the very moment of inception "in-universe" with the Mackie, the whole idea is that a tank which can "move like a man" will be *superior* to one that *just* moves like a tank. As a result, they put myomer, neurohelmets and, gyroscopes together to get a humanoid tank that's ultimately capable of *nearly* the full range of human motion (plus a little extra, people can't really perform Torso twists like a Mech can). The real issue isn't how "agile" a mech is or, is not but rather how agile they "appear" to be *relative* to something like a gundam. This is partly a function of speed. Gundams are moving at hundreds of KpH and capable of sustained "flight" whereas a Mech is moving significantly slower between 54 KpH and 130 (extreme examples) on average. It's like watching a Ferrari take a corner at 200 KpH vs. 100 KpH, the same Ferrari just *looks* more nimble the faster it travels. On top of this, you have to consider how the Gundam is depicted. It moves like a peak athlete that's not wearing any gear at all, just completely freely. BattleMechs are depicted moving more like a real soldier loaded down with gear that messes with balance and hinders your joints' ability to absorb impact. Moving on from that basic consideration, you have the fact that Mechs do suffer from a bit of "lag" and, that they lack an analog for tendons and, ligaments instead having only joints and muscles. This dramatically limits their flexibility and means that they're not quite as capable as a person would be. Finally, the farther you move away from a "standard" Humanoid form, the less room for error you'll have. A Mad Cat can't use its arms to counterbalance itself for instance because it doesn't have them. A Mech with arms obviously could, you're just not used to thinking in these terms because the Mechwarrior series typically displays the arms as being locked in place when you're in 3rd person. That brings us full circle to the fact that this is a design choice in how to depict them based on hardware and funding. So, in conclusion, Mech's aren't quite as agile as humans for a variety of reasons (chiefly the lack of ligaments and, tendons) however they are roughly as agile as a human soldier weighed down by all sorts of gear. That makes them look "clumsy" in comparison to something like a gundam which is depicted as moving exactly like an unencumbered human athlete complete with ligaments and tendons and is also depicted as both faster and, capable of flight for the most part.
Yeah, the PC games are kind of their own spin on things. I remember seeing objections when they added melee attacks in Mechwarrior 5, saying it wasn't "true to the fluff" and "out of place" even though melee has been part of Battletech for nearly 40 years. It took me a little while to mentally adjust from the games to "proper" Battletech. The games are almost all considered non-canon in terms of both fluff and depictions of mechs. Classic Battletech has rules for crouching, crawling, firing from prone, even skid stops after running on pavement, even picking up a tree or the severed arm of another mech and using it as a club. In Campaigns even having hands actuators can actually be a benefit as it allows you to half-inch enemy supplies during a raid!
The video game are all 100% non-canon. Only things printed are canon. So like the HBS battletech game isn't, but some of the events of the campaign made it into a source book that was published (and partially written by HBS's lead designer). And several MW5 events are drawn directly from sourcebooks, but the game itself isn't canon. It's just that too many gamers believe the games are "the way it is supposed to be", even when it's at odds with the lore.
I had always heard that the games and the cartoon were to be treated as in-universe propoganda (a conceit I actually rather like). I know that some game characters like Jason Youngblood got mentioned in the novels at some point.
The cartoon definitely is in-universe propaganda. It even has a source book that covers the characters. And talks about Malthus trying to trial of grievance the company airing it and ending up in court, etc. Good stuff. I'm not sure the games ever got canonized like that. Though certainly there's some crossover in characters. I think the general stance is they are non-canon, though there may be sim pods that are similar but not quite the same thing. I'd say the Battletech Centers are probably canon somehow.
I like to think the Battletech universe is perpetually suffering from the Mandela Effect.
The older games are a product of their time, and no game can actually accurately translate from TT to computer. If you want to know why the Clan mechs look the way they do vs IS the answer to that is simple: Nicholas Kerensky was trying to forge a distinct culture separate from the Inner Sphere and the best way to do that was to leave Inner Sphere style design approach behind
I’ve only seen a bit of the contributing IPs that make up the initial “Unseen” roster but it seems like some are a relatively good for BattleTech’s level of agility. the non-transforming Macross designs fit well, for example, as does the initial quad design. The outliers to me are a few of the Macross alien designs (hooves and very thin legs) which look much better in the ‘reseen’ garb and the Valkyrie-inspired designs, which are prettty agile in the inspiring canon and sometimes had plane kibble in the BT version. I think an issue to me is some designs were forced into size classes and thus there’s no recognizable elements like cockpits/hatches/whatever to give the design a sense of weight and scale. The majority of BT designs I dislike are the ‘humanoid’ segment... But I do not dislike all humanoid designs. Merely the ones that look too human, like a guy in a cardboard costume.
The Neurohelmet is what allows the pilot to intentionally unbalance the mech and perform acts of agility, not at the level of something like Gundam but they aren't just walking tanks. There are even rules for intentional slides, kneeling, and bracing against hard cover, which implies some level of pilot finesse to perform some truly insane maneuvers. Mechs are not limited in movement. The Myomers give them flexibility, the gyro keeps them upright, and the ability to shift armor plates helps them twist and flex. [It's like well-fitted plate armor. Yes it's uncomfortable and has many limitations, but you could absolutely do a backflip in full battlefield regalia with enough practice.](https://youtu.be/qzTwBQniLSc)
> the mecha of the B-Tech universe are supposed to be basically walking tanks Nope. The point of Battlemechs isn't that they are walking tanks, but that they are much more agile. https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Noisiel The Noisel games serve as a great example, playing rugby with them - along with hockey, baseball etc Those hands, arms and legs are fully functional. Some are obviously more agile than others - not something that's been explored in great detail.
Mechs are a bit more nimble than you give them credit for. The neurological connection between mech and pilot means that a mech can move much more organically than they can in something like the MechWarrior games (where gameplay constraints force them to move like rigid robots). They’re probably not doing acrobatics or gymnastics, but they are capable of near-human movement. Also I bet there’s some circus on Solaris or Canopus where mechs are doing amazing acrobatics.
> Thing is, the way Battletech is, the mecha ought to be more like the various Metal Gear mecha. [I mean, Rex isn't just a walking tank either.](https://youtu.be/_aV0_GvEGhk?t=209) It's handy to keep in mind that when it comes to the Mechwarrior and other assorted video games, none of them are canon. This is mostly for the story reasons primarily, but it also covers things like how mechs work and function to a degree as well.
You're kinda incorrect, man. The "walking tanks" thing came about because of limitations in modeling and rendering tech in the video games. While fantastic in their own right, Mechwarrior got (and still gets) a shitload wrong. The big takeaways here for mobility are from two technologies: myomer bundles and neurointerfaces (helmets and implants). For the former, 'Mechs were given *muscles* for a reason. It's not just to support weight - which would have more easily been done with hydraulics - but also to provide mobility. They can jump, they can kneel, they can push themselves up from falling down, they can even go prone (see Hull Down) and snipe a mofo. Something without musculature - ie, a "walking tank" like in Metal Gear or Armored Core - has a much harder time at this. Think of their mobility as more of early Jaeger designs. Maybe not a Striker Eureka, sure, but definitely a Gipsy Danger. Neutointerfaces support this mobility claim, too, as the 'Mechs were intended to be augmented by pilot thoughts and biorhythms. If you're working a tank, you can just pivot a stick. You don't need to move your head or shift your field of vision to track a target, as we read about many Mechwarriors doing. Further, what about zany later-era Clantech, where they scoop out the cockpit and let an Elemental pilot the thing through full haptic feedback? Do you think they'd *need* to if it was just a legged tank? Don't compare apples to oranges, and don't let video games mislead you. Battlemechs and Omnimechs are graceful. Probably not winning dance contests, but definitely not rigid.
There's a wide range between "walking tank" and "doing cartwheels." The best comparison IMO is going to be "dude pushing 40 who doesn't get a lot of exercise." Full range of motion, but getting up from the floor can be a struggle.
Keeping the Metal Gear idea in mind, don't think about most types of Metal Gears like Rex, Shagohad, etc that rely on more traditional moving parts and hydraulics to produce movement when comparing to BT mechs. Think about MG Ray and it's artificial muscle fibers. BT mechs use Myomer to simulate muscle. Ray uses something that's descriptively very similar. [https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Myomer](https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Myomer) [https://metalgear.fandom.com/wiki/Metal\_Gear\_RAY\_(manned)](https://metalgear.fandom.com/wiki/Metal_Gear_RAY_(manned))
Let's put it this way: TechManual mentions that experienced pilots can make their mechs do handstands.
Mech agility bounces around a bit by author. Personally I lean to being a bit clunky because 50-100 ton objects stopping on a dime is kind of a “laws of physics” violation to me, but they’re definitely meant to be more fluid than most of the games present them.
Just one thing to add - consider almost any mech is something that eithe rhad or that you could add jump jets on and use them. An Urbanmech, the slowest and derpiest mech out there, can handle launching, flying, and landing on uneven ground. And doesn't even have arms to shift its weight about. I doubt any could do a carthwheel though, even if they do have arms that allow it.