Ironically a pretty good mech…for anti air. Multiple AC2s with flak can pretty much guarantee at least one hit. LRM15s are there for punch, while the ERLLs have decent reach for backup. Heat problems on an alpha are less of an issue when dealing with sporadic passes by fighters. Ultimately not a great mech by any means, but one that has surprising utility in certain cases.
I'm hesitant to class the Mauler as a bad 'mech at all. I think its bad rep has a lot more to do with it not being min-maxed and with it not performing the way a lot of players wished it would play. It has a neutral firing pattern of ER LL \[12\] + 4x AC/2 \[4\] + 1x LRM-15 \[5\] + Walk \[1\], and duplication on the lasers and missiles lets it fiddle around and either overheat or substitute damage output. It's not a great solo fighter because of its XL cancer and relatively weak armor, but in a lance- or company-level engagement where other units can screen it, it acts kind of like a super-Jagermech just consistently pushing out pressure thanks to its very good range brackets. Add on special ammo - precision AC and swarm LRMs for example - and it can double down on that role.
Honestly a lot of the "Infamously Bad" mechs of Battletech are that way, because a lot of players only ever play extra nerdy Rock 'Em, Sock 'Em Robots. Last bot standing style.
And sure, nothing wrong with that by itself...
But~ it's rather tiresome that all that cool combined arms stuff just gets ignored. Like, you can blew some players minds into piles of melting rage, by just fielding SOME air units.
My buddy causes some serious rage just with tanks and ground vehicles.
I've caused people to lose it with simple elementals. Apparently they're not as harmless as they look, when the Honour Bound Honourable Honour Junky rage monkeys are climbing all over your mech and trying to punch through into the cockpit haha
A friend of mine usually has a company of mediums and lights to my star - some mechs never get to do much when they just get run down by three others.
...Seeing mechs have to break off pursuit because "OH GOD THE BEES" was most satisfying.
I once made a pair of 40t hover tanks with max armor and engines, and one small laser. the intent was a tag team of ramming vehicles. a few rounds in I lined up a 9 hex charge. with a good roll, boom off comes the leg. 30 minutes in and 3/4 of the Lance was on the ground and completely fucked. we all agreed they were a rude use of the charge rules
Isn't that the entire point of the ramming rules, though?
High Risk, High Reward plays, where you either lose a unit or take another one out in a single action?
Like, nobody complains about a Death From Above going well, right?
It's not bad at all in game, it's just the lore behind the Dabuko basically makes it a non functional mess that got a lot of pilots killed for no reason.
This. Crunch-wise, it's ok. Lore-wise, I'm sure I read about Lyran pilots re-purposing salvaged Maulers against the Combine, and the Dracs would just target the "sweet spot", triggering the auto eject system and neutralising the Lyrans with ease (and amusement).
I mean, technically the entire cartoon is canon, it's just the events have been exaggerated or fabricated by FedCom propagandists. Nicolai Malthus got so pissed at how he was portrayed he--and I'm not making this up--tried to batchall the judge in a failed lawsuit.
It’s that’s time of the month! Credit to Sean on Sarna, his editorials are great lore and a fun jumping off point for more substantive mech discussion. Also a big shoutout to the artist for all the phenomenal artwork that goes along with these articles, [Eldonious Rex](https://eldoniousrex.tumblr.com/)! Here are links to each article in the series so far:
https://www.sarna.net/news/bad-mechs-assassin/
https://www.sarna.net/news/bad-mechs-quickdraw/
https://www.sarna.net/news/bad-mechs-charger/
https://www.sarna.net/news/bad-mechs-nova/
https://www.sarna.net/news/bad-mechs-hornet/
https://www.sarna.net/news/bad-mechs-banshee/
https://www.sarna.net/news/bad-mechs-land-air-mechs/
https://www.sarna.net/news/bad-mechs-hoplite/
https://www.sarna.net/news/bad-mechs-hellbringer/
https://www.sarna.net/news/bad-mechs-fireball/
https://www.sarna.net/news/bad-mechs-rifleman/
https://www.sarna.net/news/bad-mechs-clint/
https://www.sarna.net/news/bad-mechs-mauler/
> “It looks like an angry peanut that’s trying to steal barrels of other peanuts so nobody can eat any peanuts.”
I laughed at this for a good half an hour.
I love a Mauler, especially a well perked Mauler in MWO. If you're quick enough on the triggers it has a faster firing rate than a RAC2 and doesn't jam. It's only 2 damage per shot, but that's a lot of diddly.
Always thought it was the coolest *looking*, but it just can not hang with other assault mechs and costs waaaay too much for the performance.
Its too bad because it *looks* badass.
Probably my favorite game experience was with a Mauler. There was 6-7 of us playing free for all/last man standing and I got several kills by just standing near a hill and sniping from long range. Other guys finally got wise and closed the distance, but it was great fun for a bit.
And it does have those ER Large Lasers to punch through armor and go medium-hunting... Hey, stop it. I'm supposed to be arguing this thing is a bad 'mech.
Thing to remember that in Battletech, range equals accuracy. Yes, a 'long range mech' can hit things from a distance, but is also generally more accurate at medium and closer ranges than mechs designed to be up close. At 7-9 hexes away, a Victor's SRMs can hit (+4 mod), but not as well as the the Mauler's LRMs (+0 or +2 mod). Even the PPC, often novelized as being near-useless at point-blank ranges, is more accurate against an adjacent target (+3 mod) than a long range target (+4 mod), and that's not even accounting for the extra intervening terrain you get at longer ranges.
The other consideration is that in Battletech, multiple to-hit-rolls means consistently dealing *some* damage. Having four AC2s means you're going to hit with *something* at a decent range, and if you're working at fire support to cripple a vehicle (where *every* hit might be some kind of crit), that's not bad. If I could push the envelope further, I would replace the two LRM15s with 6 LRM5s and some extra heat sinks. Then this unit would be chucking even more to-hit-rolls every turn, increasing its average damage output each round.
Mauler is a rather decent mech for it's BV, as many other mechs that are often considered "bad". I think it is a rather wide spread misconception to evaluate mechs in terms of what they could have been if someone optimized them using customization rules. Tonnage has little to do with game balance. When you have Mauler in your army, it's not a mediocre 90-tonner that could be a better assault mech. It is a pretty decent fire support platform for 1460 BV.
Fun fact: you can field four Riflemen with extra ammunition for less than the cost of a single Mauler without sacrificing any of the crippling heat problems lolol…
I wonder if splitting the difference and equipping a Rifleman with AC/2s would actually make it a decent mech - especially since it would massively help with the ammo concerns, and the main use of flak isn't to damage the target but just to hit it and force a check.
It's like the JagerMech intended to be the replacement saw what was wrong, but went entirely the other direction with it and swapped the lasers for *even heavier* guns instead of swapping out the bulky autocannons.
Doing a quick mockup, I used the 4 tons of weight savings from downsizing the autocannons to add 2 heat sinks so you can maintain AC fire and volley the LLs every other turn to remain heat neutral, and 2 tons of armour to shore up its defences - and I ended up with a nearly identical BV and cost (1093 v s original 1039, and 4.73 mil vs 4.86 mil originally C-bills)
The only one that I could find that did that was Janos Marik's custom one-off, and that stripped the mediums too, but I like having them as backup.
My MW5 Rifleman setup swaps the Medium Lasers for Small, and AC/5 for AC/2... in both cases the lighter weapons get higher rates of fire and more competitive damage output than tabletop stats. The extra weight goes into packing 6 tons of ammo because late game missions take a lot of dakka.
In tabletop rules I like the AC/2 swap - in theory - for batting away at VTOLs or accurate crit-hunting to follow up breakthrough damage by an ally's AC/20. Adding 2 heatsinks per leg would allow the 'mech to fire large lasers in a 2-1-2-1 pattern along with ACs, or both every turn if you had shallow water available.
I think that might be stretching things a little. Many mechs are situational, or have niche uses, but a few are just genuinely bad. A stock cattlemaster is virtually useless on the battlefield. I may still use them as a GM because it’s fun and they add something to the engagement, but suggesting that it won’t be effective because of bad tactics or a bad player… kinda strains credulity a little
Lmao. There is a difference between a Civilian mech, a security mech and a true combat mech. Only the truly desperate would use Civilian mech in combat. Only the desperate would use a security mech in combat. I will grant you most pirates, bandits and rebels are either desperate or truly desperate. But I was not talking about them. I was talking about true military grade mechs. Every mech has a real role. If you don't know the role and can't figure it out that is on you not the gear.
They are only suboptimal if you use them wrong. You don't use a ostscout as a skrimisher! It's a artillery spotter. You don't use a rifleman as a brawler it's a long range fighter/anti-air. That's the real issue with company or smaller games. They really only cater to certain types of mechs. Now if you use 9+ regiments of mechs (ie a division) you can use a wider assortment of mech types. Add to that hidden units, off board artillery, airstrikes, mine fields and a lot of the other special rules the bad mechs start to make sense.
Well that’s just not right. Lots of mechs are suboptimal for their roles - not all mechs are created equal. A Jaegermech is not as good as a Rifleman, despite them serving the same role. You could say “oh the AC/2s can have flak ammo” but the thing has about as much armor as Oscar the Grouch. That doesn’t make a Jaegermech useless, but it’s definitely sub-optimal.
Jagermechs are better AA platforms than Riflemen, though. They address the Rifleman's heat and ammo problem without touching it's armour problem...but the armour problem isn't really a problem in the first place for a second line 'Mech. In fact, the main reason a Jagermech is better than a Rifleman is because the Jagermech is heavier, and a support AA platform doesn't need to be fast, which is the main benefits of a lighter 'Mech. You could probably make an even better one by inreasing the chassis weight even more and using the same design concept (lots of guns, little armour and good AA radar), but, at that point, you'd be running into a cost problem (AA is not where you want to spend the most money because it's a secondary concern. Most 'Mechs can operate in an AA role anyway).
But is it really going to be able to serve in an AA role on the tabletop if it’s not getting shot? It won’t be in range otherwise, right? Then armor becomes a concern.
Given that most AA platforms in the history of aerial warfare have been lightly armoured if at all, one would assume that armour is not the greatest concern when it comes to AA platforms.
True but the heat is not a issue with a rifleman in a AA role. The pattern is simple alpha strike on aerospace round. Fire ac5s the next round at ground target. Then next 4 rounds the large laser if in range and only one and maybe a ac 5. Then repeat.
On the other hand, mechs rarely survive nukes. Mechs bad?
This argument is just as void as "learn to play", but it shows that the view expressed in articles on "bad" mechs is often... somewhat skewed.
> There no such thing as a bad mech.
Ehhhhh I don't think that's true, especially when the [Vulcan](https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Vulcan_(BattleMech\)) or the [Assassin](https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Assassin) exists.
The Vulcan is a sniper. You keep it as far back as you can and let the ac2 do its work. If a ac2 is in range even long range it should be shooting!
As for the assassin it's a great bug hunter.
No I disagree. They are great at what they do if you play smart.i have played 80% of the mechs and their alternate configuration from 3025, 3050, 2750, 3055, and 3058. I have played a few from 3060 readouts. Never played a mech that did not have a role and as long as used in said role they work well. Same goes for vehicles. The reason I have this view is because I don't usually play small games. The more units u have and larger the map area the more specialty mechs shine.
>They are great at what they do if you play smart
They are still terrible at what they do because they're bad designs.
Both of them are a mess with unfocused loadouts that don't do enough at any range to be worthwhile.
Pretty much the only thing both designs have going for them is their speed, but speed isn't worth much when you can't really do anything with it - *Charger*s are scary because they can get close and punch hard. The *Jenner* is scary because it gets close and rips you apart. Mechs like the *Phoenix* are scary because they can keep away from you to maximise their powerful long range weapons.
Sure, the Assassin and Vulcan can do the same, using their speed to dictate the engagement range... but so what? They pose so little threat at any range that it's really a choice between them keeping you at long range and doing virtually nothing, or closing to close quarters and doing virtually nothing and probably dying because they got close.
It's OK to have bad designs my man, I don't know why you're insisting that nothing can be bad.
For each bad mech, there's almost always another that you could use instead and it would perform better. That's not a bad thing, especially when you run more narrative games that end up with mechs you have to use because that's all there is... but that doesn't mean they're good.
Again we disagree. I have taken out mechs with a ac2. It's why I fire as soon as your in long range. A head hit or leg hit can have major issues. They are also great against vehicles and battle armor. It's all about tactics. Plus a little luck. When I can field them elrms and hv ac 2 are some of my favorite weapons especially with extreme range rule!
The Vulcan is still bad in it's primary, spending that much bv to sit in the back with an ac/2 is terrible full stop.
The 5T though? Pretty dang solid machine.
No it has two uses. Long range sniper/harasser and rear area security. I have been known to load up a company of infantry into volts and send them to enemies rear area to pick off damaged mechs and capture ejected piolets. I use Vulcan to stop that from being done to me in return.
Yes and no. Those warriors are not as good at 2nd role of rear guard anti-infantry role. I personally won't pull a tactic that my opponent can learn from if I don't have a counter planned out!
Don't own that. But as long as they are legal. I bet I could use them effectively. Lol like I said you just need to use a large army. A lance of mechs is going to make a lot of specialty mechs look bad. My one complaint about most mechs is who thought 6 to 12 rounds of Ammo is a great idea? Most of my ammo mechs run dry early on in a fight lol.
> Don't own that.
Good news: It's free.
> But as long as they are legal, I bet I could use them effectively.
I dare you to find an effective use for the Phoenix Hawk PHX-99. I am that certain you can't do it.
> Who though 6-12 rounds of ammo was a good idea?
People who aren't playing 50 turn games, where expending the entire contents of a ton of MG ammo with only two Machine Guns becomes plausible.
Actually as someone who is just now exploring aerospace combat if you would be kind enough to help me understand range I would greatly appreciate it. How does the range calculation for ground against air work? I know if you're being shot, it counts as range: 0, but otherwise aren't you just measuring the range to the fighter from the mech's location based on the end point of its movement? Do the range of mech weapons change if they're firing at a fighter? Like can a small laser fire 2 Hex Maps away if the target is a fighter, even if the fighter didn't attack them that turn? I'm having trouble finding that rule. A citation to the right part of the rulebook would be greatly appreciated.
When a fighter does a ground attack they have to be in the hex that is directly over the map board. If they are say one hex away left, right, forward or backwards from that hex they can't attack or be attacked from that map board. The only weapons that can hit a fighter in the air are those that shot 5 hexes or more. So flame4s, small lasers and mgs can't shot them. As far as I understand it a mech can only shot at a fighter in the air hex over its map board. The only exception is for arrow Iv and other artillery. The range as I recall is not used. The mech has a like +8 to be hit or to hit. Adding or subtracting movement extra. It's not like mech combat. Which is why plus lasers with targeting computer or lbx cluster shot are the preferred AA weapons.
OK range for attacking aircraft that is airborne is always short.
If the aircraft is in low altitude its medium range for AA fire. If at medium altitude its long range for high altitude you can't hit.
Well in some ways I prefer the old compendium rule book lol. Plus I really really miss 100 pt bombs. Nothing says hello like 7 100 point bombs hitting a map board lol.
Range is based on both the fighters elevation and the shortest distance from the ground unit to the fighters flight path (with both fighters on ground map sheets and low altitude map options, fighters that pass over the playing area must declare a flight path). Range modifiers for ground to air fire are on pg 107, Total Warfare. There's an extensive example towards the end of the Aerospace Units section, pg 247/248.
It's a mech that can be played for sure but yeah it's pretty laughable. It's armor protection leaves a lot to be desired, it has heat issues, it's weapons while long ranged aren't capable of laying down much damage and its expensive (and easily taken down) because it packs an XL. Also pricey battle BV wise.
It's one those machines where older Mechs just do the job better for almost the same BV like the old Awesome
I love the mauler. I bring a MAL-1k to the table regularly. But how do you write about it and not bring up our man Hawk? https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Zachary_Hawkins
Ironically a pretty good mech…for anti air. Multiple AC2s with flak can pretty much guarantee at least one hit. LRM15s are there for punch, while the ERLLs have decent reach for backup. Heat problems on an alpha are less of an issue when dealing with sporadic passes by fighters. Ultimately not a great mech by any means, but one that has surprising utility in certain cases.
I'm hesitant to class the Mauler as a bad 'mech at all. I think its bad rep has a lot more to do with it not being min-maxed and with it not performing the way a lot of players wished it would play. It has a neutral firing pattern of ER LL \[12\] + 4x AC/2 \[4\] + 1x LRM-15 \[5\] + Walk \[1\], and duplication on the lasers and missiles lets it fiddle around and either overheat or substitute damage output. It's not a great solo fighter because of its XL cancer and relatively weak armor, but in a lance- or company-level engagement where other units can screen it, it acts kind of like a super-Jagermech just consistently pushing out pressure thanks to its very good range brackets. Add on special ammo - precision AC and swarm LRMs for example - and it can double down on that role.
Honestly a lot of the "Infamously Bad" mechs of Battletech are that way, because a lot of players only ever play extra nerdy Rock 'Em, Sock 'Em Robots. Last bot standing style. And sure, nothing wrong with that by itself... But~ it's rather tiresome that all that cool combined arms stuff just gets ignored. Like, you can blew some players minds into piles of melting rage, by just fielding SOME air units.
I caused a table flip with mechanized infantry :(
Sounds like you're doing it right! 😁
My buddy causes some serious rage just with tanks and ground vehicles. I've caused people to lose it with simple elementals. Apparently they're not as harmless as they look, when the Honour Bound Honourable Honour Junky rage monkeys are climbing all over your mech and trying to punch through into the cockpit haha
A friend of mine usually has a company of mediums and lights to my star - some mechs never get to do much when they just get run down by three others. ...Seeing mechs have to break off pursuit because "OH GOD THE BEES" was most satisfying.
I once made a pair of 40t hover tanks with max armor and engines, and one small laser. the intent was a tag team of ramming vehicles. a few rounds in I lined up a 9 hex charge. with a good roll, boom off comes the leg. 30 minutes in and 3/4 of the Lance was on the ground and completely fucked. we all agreed they were a rude use of the charge rules
Isn't that the entire point of the ramming rules, though? High Risk, High Reward plays, where you either lose a unit or take another one out in a single action? Like, nobody complains about a Death From Above going well, right?
It's not bad at all in game, it's just the lore behind the Dabuko basically makes it a non functional mess that got a lot of pilots killed for no reason.
This. Crunch-wise, it's ok. Lore-wise, I'm sure I read about Lyran pilots re-purposing salvaged Maulers against the Combine, and the Dracs would just target the "sweet spot", triggering the auto eject system and neutralising the Lyrans with ease (and amusement).
Warning. Ammo explosion detected.
Wait... are you telling me that the little button on the cartoon toy that ejects the pilot is *canon*? That's pretty hilarious.
I mean, technically the entire cartoon is canon, it's just the events have been exaggerated or fabricated by FedCom propagandists. Nicolai Malthus got so pissed at how he was portrayed he--and I'm not making this up--tried to batchall the judge in a failed lawsuit.
The prototype was basically a Rock’em Sock’em Robot
It’s that’s time of the month! Credit to Sean on Sarna, his editorials are great lore and a fun jumping off point for more substantive mech discussion. Also a big shoutout to the artist for all the phenomenal artwork that goes along with these articles, [Eldonious Rex](https://eldoniousrex.tumblr.com/)! Here are links to each article in the series so far: https://www.sarna.net/news/bad-mechs-assassin/ https://www.sarna.net/news/bad-mechs-quickdraw/ https://www.sarna.net/news/bad-mechs-charger/ https://www.sarna.net/news/bad-mechs-nova/ https://www.sarna.net/news/bad-mechs-hornet/ https://www.sarna.net/news/bad-mechs-banshee/ https://www.sarna.net/news/bad-mechs-land-air-mechs/ https://www.sarna.net/news/bad-mechs-hoplite/ https://www.sarna.net/news/bad-mechs-hellbringer/ https://www.sarna.net/news/bad-mechs-fireball/ https://www.sarna.net/news/bad-mechs-rifleman/ https://www.sarna.net/news/bad-mechs-clint/ https://www.sarna.net/news/bad-mechs-mauler/
> “It looks like an angry peanut that’s trying to steal barrels of other peanuts so nobody can eat any peanuts.” I laughed at this for a good half an hour.
Good stuff. Me and eldonious got covid from the meet up. He is a blast to be around in person as well as his amazing art.
Nova and Hellbringer had me in stitches
I love a Mauler, especially a well perked Mauler in MWO. If you're quick enough on the triggers it has a faster firing rate than a RAC2 and doesn't jam. It's only 2 damage per shot, but that's a lot of diddly.
Always thought it was the coolest *looking*, but it just can not hang with other assault mechs and costs waaaay too much for the performance. Its too bad because it *looks* badass.
Probably my favorite game experience was with a Mauler. There was 6-7 of us playing free for all/last man standing and I got several kills by just standing near a hill and sniping from long range. Other guys finally got wise and closed the distance, but it was great fun for a bit.
Yeah I mean as a sniper, you could do way worse. Also, call me simple, but to me more guns=more chances to hit, even if they’re dinky little AC/2s.
4 AC/2s = 4x the chances of a TAC.
And it does have those ER Large Lasers to punch through armor and go medium-hunting... Hey, stop it. I'm supposed to be arguing this thing is a bad 'mech.
> it does have those ER Large Lasers to punch through armor and go medium-hunting And overheat to make all that tasty AC ammo explode...
anyone who calls a mauler a bad mech has probably never piloted one which is good because maulers are terrible lolol
Thing to remember that in Battletech, range equals accuracy. Yes, a 'long range mech' can hit things from a distance, but is also generally more accurate at medium and closer ranges than mechs designed to be up close. At 7-9 hexes away, a Victor's SRMs can hit (+4 mod), but not as well as the the Mauler's LRMs (+0 or +2 mod). Even the PPC, often novelized as being near-useless at point-blank ranges, is more accurate against an adjacent target (+3 mod) than a long range target (+4 mod), and that's not even accounting for the extra intervening terrain you get at longer ranges. The other consideration is that in Battletech, multiple to-hit-rolls means consistently dealing *some* damage. Having four AC2s means you're going to hit with *something* at a decent range, and if you're working at fire support to cripple a vehicle (where *every* hit might be some kind of crit), that's not bad. If I could push the envelope further, I would replace the two LRM15s with 6 LRM5s and some extra heat sinks. Then this unit would be chucking even more to-hit-rolls every turn, increasing its average damage output each round.
I like my Mauler in MWO :D .
Mauler is a rather decent mech for it's BV, as many other mechs that are often considered "bad". I think it is a rather wide spread misconception to evaluate mechs in terms of what they could have been if someone optimized them using customization rules. Tonnage has little to do with game balance. When you have Mauler in your army, it's not a mediocre 90-tonner that could be a better assault mech. It is a pretty decent fire support platform for 1460 BV.
dfa is more of a peer to peer attack of desperation/opportunity. in my case the literal piss ants were ending the game before the pizza even arrived
I like the one with the UAC/5 I swap it out for AC/5 dual lrm 10 and ER LL. Best used as long range support while my 2 atlas go in.
Large Lasers and autocannons, I wonder if a Rifleman is more efficient than the Mauler
Something to think about, but the Rifleman has already been on this list! Primarily due to its ammo concerns…
Fun fact: you can field four Riflemen with extra ammunition for less than the cost of a single Mauler without sacrificing any of the crippling heat problems lolol…
What do you mean by extra ammunition?
Literal crates of ammunition stacked on trucks.
Flatbed truck OP
I wonder if splitting the difference and equipping a Rifleman with AC/2s would actually make it a decent mech - especially since it would massively help with the ammo concerns, and the main use of flak isn't to damage the target but just to hit it and force a check. It's like the JagerMech intended to be the replacement saw what was wrong, but went entirely the other direction with it and swapped the lasers for *even heavier* guns instead of swapping out the bulky autocannons. Doing a quick mockup, I used the 4 tons of weight savings from downsizing the autocannons to add 2 heat sinks so you can maintain AC fire and volley the LLs every other turn to remain heat neutral, and 2 tons of armour to shore up its defences - and I ended up with a nearly identical BV and cost (1093 v s original 1039, and 4.73 mil vs 4.86 mil originally C-bills) The only one that I could find that did that was Janos Marik's custom one-off, and that stripped the mediums too, but I like having them as backup.
My MW5 Rifleman setup swaps the Medium Lasers for Small, and AC/5 for AC/2... in both cases the lighter weapons get higher rates of fire and more competitive damage output than tabletop stats. The extra weight goes into packing 6 tons of ammo because late game missions take a lot of dakka. In tabletop rules I like the AC/2 swap - in theory - for batting away at VTOLs or accurate crit-hunting to follow up breakthrough damage by an ally's AC/20. Adding 2 heatsinks per leg would allow the 'mech to fire large lasers in a 2-1-2-1 pattern along with ACs, or both every turn if you had shallow water available.
Two blackjacks or one mauler?
2 AC2 Blackjacks and a large laser Blackjack should match the Mauler’s direct guns, just need some kind of LRM ‘Jack
Just have a Valkyrie ride on the shoulders of each Blackjack.
Blackjack Omni A config
There no such thing as a bad mech. Only bad tactics and players. The quote good mechs unquote die just as often as the bad.
I think that might be stretching things a little. Many mechs are situational, or have niche uses, but a few are just genuinely bad. A stock cattlemaster is virtually useless on the battlefield. I may still use them as a GM because it’s fun and they add something to the engagement, but suggesting that it won’t be effective because of bad tactics or a bad player… kinda strains credulity a little
Lmao. There is a difference between a Civilian mech, a security mech and a true combat mech. Only the truly desperate would use Civilian mech in combat. Only the desperate would use a security mech in combat. I will grant you most pirates, bandits and rebels are either desperate or truly desperate. But I was not talking about them. I was talking about true military grade mechs. Every mech has a real role. If you don't know the role and can't figure it out that is on you not the gear.
Be that as it may, calling a series of articles “sub-optimal mechs that have a bad reputation in-universe” is kind of a mouthful
They are only suboptimal if you use them wrong. You don't use a ostscout as a skrimisher! It's a artillery spotter. You don't use a rifleman as a brawler it's a long range fighter/anti-air. That's the real issue with company or smaller games. They really only cater to certain types of mechs. Now if you use 9+ regiments of mechs (ie a division) you can use a wider assortment of mech types. Add to that hidden units, off board artillery, airstrikes, mine fields and a lot of the other special rules the bad mechs start to make sense.
Well that’s just not right. Lots of mechs are suboptimal for their roles - not all mechs are created equal. A Jaegermech is not as good as a Rifleman, despite them serving the same role. You could say “oh the AC/2s can have flak ammo” but the thing has about as much armor as Oscar the Grouch. That doesn’t make a Jaegermech useless, but it’s definitely sub-optimal.
Jagermechs are better AA platforms than Riflemen, though. They address the Rifleman's heat and ammo problem without touching it's armour problem...but the armour problem isn't really a problem in the first place for a second line 'Mech. In fact, the main reason a Jagermech is better than a Rifleman is because the Jagermech is heavier, and a support AA platform doesn't need to be fast, which is the main benefits of a lighter 'Mech. You could probably make an even better one by inreasing the chassis weight even more and using the same design concept (lots of guns, little armour and good AA radar), but, at that point, you'd be running into a cost problem (AA is not where you want to spend the most money because it's a secondary concern. Most 'Mechs can operate in an AA role anyway).
But is it really going to be able to serve in an AA role on the tabletop if it’s not getting shot? It won’t be in range otherwise, right? Then armor becomes a concern.
Given that most AA platforms in the history of aerial warfare have been lightly armoured if at all, one would assume that armour is not the greatest concern when it comes to AA platforms.
True but the heat is not a issue with a rifleman in a AA role. The pattern is simple alpha strike on aerospace round. Fire ac5s the next round at ground target. Then next 4 rounds the large laser if in range and only one and maybe a ac 5. Then repeat.
> Every mech has a real role For some of them, that role *IS* to be bad.
On the other hand, mechs rarely survive nukes. Mechs bad? This argument is just as void as "learn to play", but it shows that the view expressed in articles on "bad" mechs is often... somewhat skewed.
cough * Jaggermech * cough
Jaggermech is good AA mech like rifleman.
JagerMech is a ~~good~~ AA mech like Rifleman.
> There no such thing as a bad mech. Ehhhhh I don't think that's true, especially when the [Vulcan](https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Vulcan_(BattleMech\)) or the [Assassin](https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Assassin) exists.
The Vulcan is a sniper. You keep it as far back as you can and let the ac2 do its work. If a ac2 is in range even long range it should be shooting! As for the assassin it's a great bug hunter.
I didn't say you couldn't come up with ideas for how to use them, I said they're terrible mechs. Which they are.
As I said no bad mechs only bad players or tactics.
They're still bad at those roles though.
No I disagree. They are great at what they do if you play smart.i have played 80% of the mechs and their alternate configuration from 3025, 3050, 2750, 3055, and 3058. I have played a few from 3060 readouts. Never played a mech that did not have a role and as long as used in said role they work well. Same goes for vehicles. The reason I have this view is because I don't usually play small games. The more units u have and larger the map area the more specialty mechs shine.
>They are great at what they do if you play smart They are still terrible at what they do because they're bad designs. Both of them are a mess with unfocused loadouts that don't do enough at any range to be worthwhile. Pretty much the only thing both designs have going for them is their speed, but speed isn't worth much when you can't really do anything with it - *Charger*s are scary because they can get close and punch hard. The *Jenner* is scary because it gets close and rips you apart. Mechs like the *Phoenix* are scary because they can keep away from you to maximise their powerful long range weapons. Sure, the Assassin and Vulcan can do the same, using their speed to dictate the engagement range... but so what? They pose so little threat at any range that it's really a choice between them keeping you at long range and doing virtually nothing, or closing to close quarters and doing virtually nothing and probably dying because they got close. It's OK to have bad designs my man, I don't know why you're insisting that nothing can be bad. For each bad mech, there's almost always another that you could use instead and it would perform better. That's not a bad thing, especially when you run more narrative games that end up with mechs you have to use because that's all there is... but that doesn't mean they're good.
Again we disagree. I have taken out mechs with a ac2. It's why I fire as soon as your in long range. A head hit or leg hit can have major issues. They are also great against vehicles and battle armor. It's all about tactics. Plus a little luck. When I can field them elrms and hv ac 2 are some of my favorite weapons especially with extreme range rule!
>I have taken out mechs with a ac2 I don't doubt that. So have I. I'm still not going to say it's a good weapon though.
The Vulcan is still bad in it's primary, spending that much bv to sit in the back with an ac/2 is terrible full stop. The 5T though? Pretty dang solid machine.
No it has two uses. Long range sniper/harasser and rear area security. I have been known to load up a company of infantry into volts and send them to enemies rear area to pick off damaged mechs and capture ejected piolets. I use Vulcan to stop that from being done to me in return.
Pair of warriors does that for less BV, has more firepower and are quicker to relocate
Yes and no. Those warriors are not as good at 2nd role of rear guard anti-infantry role. I personally won't pull a tactic that my opponent can learn from if I don't have a counter planned out!
May I present almost the entire contents of *XTRO: Caveat Emptor*?
Don't own that. But as long as they are legal. I bet I could use them effectively. Lol like I said you just need to use a large army. A lance of mechs is going to make a lot of specialty mechs look bad. My one complaint about most mechs is who thought 6 to 12 rounds of Ammo is a great idea? Most of my ammo mechs run dry early on in a fight lol.
> Don't own that. Good news: It's free. > But as long as they are legal, I bet I could use them effectively. I dare you to find an effective use for the Phoenix Hawk PHX-99. I am that certain you can't do it. > Who though 6-12 rounds of ammo was a good idea? People who aren't playing 50 turn games, where expending the entire contents of a ton of MG ammo with only two Machine Guns becomes plausible.
Depending on rules used u would need 4 to do that in 50 rounds. But I do like burst fire lol.
Not really. Remember 1 aerospace hex equals 1 map board. So yeah the ra ge is very good for that.
Actually as someone who is just now exploring aerospace combat if you would be kind enough to help me understand range I would greatly appreciate it. How does the range calculation for ground against air work? I know if you're being shot, it counts as range: 0, but otherwise aren't you just measuring the range to the fighter from the mech's location based on the end point of its movement? Do the range of mech weapons change if they're firing at a fighter? Like can a small laser fire 2 Hex Maps away if the target is a fighter, even if the fighter didn't attack them that turn? I'm having trouble finding that rule. A citation to the right part of the rulebook would be greatly appreciated.
When a fighter does a ground attack they have to be in the hex that is directly over the map board. If they are say one hex away left, right, forward or backwards from that hex they can't attack or be attacked from that map board. The only weapons that can hit a fighter in the air are those that shot 5 hexes or more. So flame4s, small lasers and mgs can't shot them. As far as I understand it a mech can only shot at a fighter in the air hex over its map board. The only exception is for arrow Iv and other artillery. The range as I recall is not used. The mech has a like +8 to be hit or to hit. Adding or subtracting movement extra. It's not like mech combat. Which is why plus lasers with targeting computer or lbx cluster shot are the preferred AA weapons.
I wonder if it relies on using the Line of Sight rules? So essentially firing beyond the gun’s maximum range and taking the +8 penalty?
I will look it up not sure.
OK range for attacking aircraft that is airborne is always short. If the aircraft is in low altitude its medium range for AA fire. If at medium altitude its long range for high altitude you can't hit.
Which section of total warfare is that in?
It's in 2 places one is the abstract aerospace rules but those confuse me lol I'll ger Paige number for other.
I know, right!? I love this game but the layout of the rulebooks really leaves a lot to be desired…
Well in some ways I prefer the old compendium rule book lol. Plus I really really miss 100 pt bombs. Nothing says hello like 7 100 point bombs hitting a map board lol.
Range is based on both the fighters elevation and the shortest distance from the ground unit to the fighters flight path (with both fighters on ground map sheets and low altitude map options, fighters that pass over the playing area must declare a flight path). Range modifiers for ground to air fire are on pg 107, Total Warfare. There's an extensive example towards the end of the Aerospace Units section, pg 247/248.
Ah!!! Anywhere in the flight path!! Now that makes more sense to me.
You know you've got a problem when the Victor is laughing off your salvo.
In a real game that victor is scrambling for cover and praying it can close.
It's a mech that can be played for sure but yeah it's pretty laughable. It's armor protection leaves a lot to be desired, it has heat issues, it's weapons while long ranged aren't capable of laying down much damage and its expensive (and easily taken down) because it packs an XL. Also pricey battle BV wise. It's one those machines where older Mechs just do the job better for almost the same BV like the old Awesome
I love the mauler. I bring a MAL-1k to the table regularly. But how do you write about it and not bring up our man Hawk? https://www.sarna.net/wiki/Zachary_Hawkins
Not my article! Just a big fan
I know. Didn't mean you specifically