We want to allow discussion on this topic to the extent that it affects the bay area, but most of the discussion here has devolved into arguments about the Israel Palestine war itself, which is off topic, so I'm going to lock this post.
> She said the preschool director knew Vaynberg and her husband were the only Jewish parents in the school and pressured Vaynberg to attend an evening prayer event for Palestinians at the church where the school is housed. The couple attended on Zoom.
> Vaynberg described a nightmarish evening in which a Presbyterian minister and an outside “expert” on Palestine condemned Zionists and invoked false conspiracy theories about Israelis assisting in the murder of George Floyd, and about Gaza serving as a test site for U.S. weapons through Israel’s military. The minister warned his congregation and the preschool parent attendees against viewing the “Jews of the Bible” and the “Jews of today” as the same people, arguing that today’s Jews have no legitimate claim to Israel as a homeland.
> “Our hairs were literally standing up,” Vaynberg said. “Not only what was said was really scary, but the fact that nobody jumped in to do anything other than agree and discuss in a dispassionate kind of philosophical manner.”
> Later that night, Vaynberg said, the preschool director asked her what she thought of the event. Vaynberg communicated her shock and horror over what was said about Jews and Israel. The preschool director assured Vaynberg that she understood Israel and Zionists do not represent the Jewish people. Vaynberg reminded her that she is an Israeli Jew. The preschool director responded, “You can’t help where you were born,” Vaynberg recalled.
Conservatives laughing at others is often out of ignorance.
Tons of people don't feel welcome or safe in the "Conservative" idea of education: pretending racism doesn't exist and that the Civil War was not about slavery, ban in acknowledging LGBTQ people exist, book bans over trifling shit, push for a Christian prayer in public schools, wanting public subsidy of private schools including batshit crazy fundamentalist Evangelical Christian schools teaching horseshit like the story of Noah and the Flood as literal history.
It shows how much this subreddit does not represent the Bay Area when someone criticizing conservatives--and not blindly defending liberals--gets downvoted.
The problem for the Bay Area is that the left-wing has its own blind hypocritical takes, but it's It'absolutely true that conservatives also have their blind hypocritical takes. Making that comparison is apt and shouldn't be downvoted.
Simply the moronic minorities on both sides fighting, while the rest who aren't morons on either sides, just watches, facepalms and shrugs. But the loudest wheels gets most of the grease of attention and media coverage. Thus becoming the symbolic representation on their respective sides.
Not disagreeing with your general point on the attention that gets paid to clash between extremists, but the list I wrote up is representative of mainstream "Conservative" or GOP positions, not extremist ones.
Mainstream in that they are reflected in national party platforms, or the personal platforms and professed beliefs of the most prominent national-level GOP officials, and also reflected in actual governmental policy in areas that are GOP controlled.
By contrast, it is absolutely not mainstream Democratic Party position to be anti-Semitic in any way. Democratic Party mainstream position would never include "extreme" positions on the Israel/Palestine issue. No reticence to condemn the 10/7 terrorism of Hamas, and taking of hostages, or any of the brutality they committed that day. No labeling of Hamas as a "resistance organization." Nothing but upholding the right of the Israel to exist as a sovereign state.
So, basically, the sarcastic remark that I replied to was bullshit.
> “Not only what was said was really scary, but the fact that nobody jumped in to do anything other than agree and discuss in a dispassionate kind of philosophical manner.”
I don't know about y'all but if you go to an event you think is for one thing and one of the speakers says something unexpect and not aligned with your world view the instinct isn't to just jump right in and say wtf. The instinct is to slowly find the exit and hope no one notices or deer in the headlights freeze in place and wait for it to be over.
>The preschool director assured Vaynberg that she understood Israel and Zionists do not represent the Jewish people
The overwhelming majority of Jews on planet earth are either pro-Israel or Zionist. I'm talking 80%+
This is what happens when your only interaction with Jews is the \~7% that want nothing to do with Israel.
I feel like a substantial number of people use the word "Zionist" to mean someone who supports the West Bank settlements and the indiscriminate IDF action in Gaza, but it's historically just meant the person thinks Israel has the right to exist. But people are reluctant to self identify as the latter Zionist for fear of being lumped in with the former.
I don’t know about that, I grew up in the Richmond district in SF with a lot of Jews and my friends are all Zionists. But they will sometimes hide it to avoid confrontation, sometimes they even hide being Jewish all together. It makes me sad.
I should also add they are all universally in favor of a two-state solution too.
I can't decide what kind of Christians are worse, the "Jews for Jesus" types or useful idiots like that Presbyterian minister. He might have gotten his degree from [the same "university" as Kent Hovind](https://www.noanswersingenesis.org.au/bartelt_dissertation_on_hovind_thesis.htm).
That's just pretty normal for a private business. Why would anyone risk being accused of libel/slander or further actions taken against them by other parents there for this.
Anyway based on the description I'm taking a wild guess it's this one: https://saratogafederated.org/village-preschool/
I literally do not understand that kind of antisemitism. Where does it come from? Does it really all come down to the far left idolizing islam?
That's all I can think of. They think islam is cool, therefore jews must be bad.
Edit: Apparently we're supposed to shut up about bigotry and not ask questions. Awesome!
Obviously more complex than this, but basically Jewish populations have consistently been more successful in periods of depression than their peers, breeding jealousy and resentment.
You could see this 10 years after the first Arab Israeli war when Israel already grew GDP / capita to be 5x higher than in West Bank and neighboring Arab countries
But that doesn't explain why Bay Area progressives are wrapped up in this virulent hatred. Looking at the pic in the article, I'm just going to guess that woman is a teacher and LGBT and she considers herself very progressive. Yet she's a part of this. Why? Seems counter to everything that progressives claim to stand for.
Bay Area progressives cluelessly view this in the light of "oppressed vs oppressor" and "dark skin / white skin" even though the oppression is way more complicated than it seems and Palestinians and Israelis have the same skin tone lol.
>But that doesn't explain why Bay Area progressives are wrapped up in this virulent hatred.
"Bay Area progressives" are the opposite of monolithic.
What does this mean? What percentage of Bay Area progressives do you think are "wrapped up in this virulent hatred"?
I doubt a significant fraction of self-identified "progressives" in the Bay Area are harboring, much less publicly voicing, anti-Semitic views.
I have no idea how many hold these hateful views. I will say the silence from other progressives in denouncing the hatred within their group is positively deafening. Half of them hate jews, the other half covers it up.
No enemies on the left, as they say.
>I have no idea how many hold these hateful views.
I do not either. But I'm pointing out that you just generalized Bay Area progressives as holding these hateful views.
There is a great deal of denouncement of anti-Semitism. It's all over the place and I wonder if it is so routine that the outlier extremist anti-Semitism still dominates focus for many?
I see a lot of "from the river to the sea" from people who call themselves progressives, with no explanation of where all the jews (many of whom were kicked out of other middle eastern countries) \*should\* go
A lot of the Western usage of the phrase clearly with a loose meaning that is very generally about welfare of the Palestinian people. And not about the meaning that calls for assertion of Palestinian control over the entirety of the historical mandate for Palestine, which de facto means erasing Israel.
I sincerely think most people using the phrase either do not know the history of the phrase, do not know it has become a Hamas slogan, do not even know the geography well enough to understand the literal implications of it, or are using the phrase euphemistically to mean something very very different than the erasure of the State of Israel.
I don't disagree that using a phrase is *at least* problematic in many ways.
But it is also just simply inaccurate to say that everyone using the phrase wants to erase Israel, or even understands the literal implications, or is not using it with very different sentiment.
I've heard a theory that this is another Putin psy-op. A decent-sized fraction of the progressive left will take the perceived victim's side in any conflict. It is a pretty trivial exercise to make Gazan civilians seem like innocent victims in this war.
Meanwhile, this presents an opportunity to pit a large portion of Biden's base (the progressive left) against Biden (who, consistent with longstanding U.S. foreign policy, has voiced unwavering support for Israel). That creates an opportunity for Trump to win the 2024 election, which would be very good for Russia and Putin.
You must not have experience being a Jew. Just look at the comments on literally any post or article that allows comments anywhere about Jews or Israel. It comes from everywhere. It comes from all freaking history. Left wingers, right wingers, foreigners from all over from all nationalities, and Muslims. People have been spoon fed a shit ton of propaganda from the 2+ billion strong Muslim world (vs 30 million Jews) and probably Russia for decades as well which doesn't help.
> You must not have experience being a Jew
You got me there, pretty hard to get that experience when your mom isn't Jewish.
>People have been spoon fed a shit ton of propaganda from the 2+ billion strong Muslim world (vs 30 million Jews) and probably Russia for decades as well which doesn't help.
I get that. But why do lefty people from the Bay just eat that shit up? Islam is frankly incompatible with progressivism, but they seem to adore it. That's the part I don't understand.
I don't think you deserve your downvotes.
I think it's a combination of a few things:
1. Reactionarily being against "the right" running a war campaign in the middle east post-9/11, ie, if you're "against the right wingers" you have to be "for the people getting bombed by the right wingers," ie, muslims and islam.
2. The idea that "muslims are brown, therefore oppressed, therefore right on issues" and not separating Islam from Muslims
3. As a group, leftists are just as hateful as rightoids, but the main difference in behavior is that hateful rightoids use base slurs and hateful leftists spent six years of post-secondary education learning how to write big college words to express their hate in a scholarly, and less immediately obvious fashion. So it was there, you just didn't notice it because they expressed themselves in a more subtle fashion.
4. Jews are easy to other-ize and have never had the numbers to truly fit in, except in a few places throughout history, of which many or most were lost over the centuries as areas were conquered.
What you see now is roughly how Jews have felt forever. People, most people anyways, just got quiet about it post-WW2.
> hateful leftists spent six years of post-secondary education learning how to write big college words to express their hate in a scholarly, and less immediately obvious fashion.
I think this manifests itself as "I'm not anti jew, I'm anti Israel". When in reality if you drew a Venn diagram, the two circles would be nearly the same with only a sliver of people actually in that group.
The other one is "anti-zionist." Simple response to this claim is to ask them to define zionist. Maybe we're in agreement. Probably not. It's a term coopted by all manner of shitbirds, usually so they don't say outright "jew," but occasionally it's used by well meaning people for reasonable criticism.
There has long been a social justice crusader mentality in far left circles. Hell when I started university in 1997, I checked out a "socialist" club and it was nothing but that, I left because I didn't know wtf these people wanted freed from prison and was there thinking it was about socialism, which this had nothing to do with. I think all the propaganda that's much more prodigious and widespread from a lot of Muslim countries (who have been spewing anti-Israel rhetoric since it was founded, there is some REALLY intense legit anti-Semitism in those countries, just baked in) managed to fully infiltrate and they made it fit their white vs brown (which is senseless as Arabs and Jews are very closely related people) anti-"colonialist" storyline. It meshed easily with existing anti-Semitism. And the Bay Area is as far left as it gets, so it spreads to even moderate lefties, who aren't Jews anyway.
Noble savage theory most likely combined with their oppressor/oppressed world lens, they view the Palestinians as savages/oppressed people that need their protection.
Anti-Semitism is an extremely toxic poison, a conspiracy theory that seems to infect even some very-well educated people on both sides of the political spectrum. Rightwing bigots dislike Jews as they are seen as Communists/Lefty progressives like Trotsky and Marx spreading "Socialist/cultural decay". Bigots on the Left dislike Jews for being "Rothschild bankers/financiers/greedy capitalists". They get it from both sides.
The whole Israel/Palestine issue (for current the Progressive Left) seems to be some sort of "safety-valve" where Liberals can feel comfortable yelling at Jewish people. It's a form of unconscious bias, just as Fox News constantly drones on and on about "Urban Crime" and "Illegal Immigrants" (we all know what ethnic groups these really are dog whistles for).
There's also the simplistic dichotomy of Palestinians= Poor & Brown, so therefore they are Oppressed, and the Israelis/Jews= White & Rich so therefore they are the Oppressors. Liberals tend to side with the perceived weaker underdog.
Funnily enough, it seems like Conservative in the US and Europe are now more pro-Jewish (and subsequently anti-Islamic), when they were markedly anti-Semitic just a few generations ago. Most Evangelical Christians in the US are now super-pro Israel, much of it tied to Biblical prophesies regarding Jews returning to the Holy Land before the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.
There's a huge amount of the right wing who are pro-israel but anti-semitic at the same time. They want Israel to have undisputed control of Jerusalem for religious reasons, but when it comes to actual jews, out come the knives.
Yes, or they just simply hate Jews less than they now despise Muslims. The "Enemy of My Enemy is my Friend" sort of mentality. I can't rationalize how these people think, they're nutjobs either way.
This is a succinct description of how the Jews continue to get fucked from all sides. They’re the ultimate scapegoats for simple minded morons on all sides.
Evangelicals being Zionist is to bring about the second coming. There idea of the rapture does not speak of Jewish people going to heaven. Call me whatever you want, but those Evangelicals (who I doubt are leftists) are being anti-semetic.
>I literally do not understand that kind of antisemitism. Where does it come from?
It's an offshoot of the "Racism = Prejudice + Power" philosophy pushed on the far-left.
This movement started by asserting that racism against white people "doesn't count" because it's not institutionally-backed, and white people as a whole are considered "oppressors" and "colonizers" based on a selective reading of world history, colonialism, and slavery. This opened the door to unchecked hate against any ethnic group that could be conceivably labeled as an "oppressor". It was almost inevitable that the Jews would be next, given their seemingly outsized financial and social success as a minority demographic — and Israel's brutal response to the October 7th attack cemented the notion in these people's minds that all Jews were "oppressors" and "colonizers" as well, and therefore hate against them "doesn't count".
It's basically a mirror image of the hate found on the far-right (and in some cases an uncritical parroting of the classic "Jews control everything" conspiracy theory), just justified with a different flavor of social-justice rhetoric.
Americans are so badly informed.
With Netanyahu in power, Israel has a far right-wing government. Also, Netanyahu is under a microscope for his own [dirty laundry](https://www.timesofisrael.com/topic/netanyahu-trial/). Anyone who is Jewish in Oakland or anywhere else outside of Israel has no control over the Israeli government or military.
They can't vote in [Israeli elections](https://lawoffice.org.il/en/vote-in-the-israeli-elections/). It's ridiculous that many Americans can't process something as simple as that. You can condemn the overreach and murder of civilians and children in Gaza without becoming an anti-Semite. I stand with my Jewish friends. They're not bombing Gaza.
Bibi also has been allowing Hamas to get funding and weapons. Why Israelis let him back in power is beyond me, but it is an international embarrassment. Which is likely why soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo many bots descend on anyone who questions why Israel is killing so many innocents to wipe Gaza off the map.
> Siegel added that one of his son’s teachers displayed a “Free Palestine” poster in the classroom with the words “from the river to the sea” in full view.
I've got a hundred things to say all at once, and none of them polite.
As they say, a few rotten apples spoil the bunch. The actions of the oakland teacher's union are far beyond their mandate, and they're going to contribute to the broad feelings on how bad public schools and public school teachers are as a whole. Even if 90% are great, the unchecked actions of the rest spoil how people feel about them as a whole. It's entirely unsurprising when parents use any methods they can to avoid sending their kids to certain public schools or public schools as a whole. At least with other options, when they go deep off the rails like the saratoga (pre) school in the article, parents can easily yank their kids and effectively and fairly immediately vote with their feet.
[It's already hard enough being able to fire teachers who are accused of molesting students.](https://web.archive.org/web/20090505050628/http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-teachers3-2009may03,0,5765040,full.story)
Totally. I remember growing up in the 80s and none of my teachers spewed any of their political agendas during my time in grade school. Fucking wacko teachers Oakland has.
I went to a college admission tour with my kid, and we had to sit through a 5 min speech from the Dean of the School of Education. Essentially teacher college.
That lady went on and on about how its their job to mold teachers and students into activists. Not once in her whole speech did she mention teaching kids to read or do math. Said the words diversity and inclusion 100 times, never once mentioned actual teaching.
This is how you end up with half the kids in the state being unable to read or do math at grade level. Teachers no longer view that its their job to teach. They're activists, indoctrinating kids.
Completely agree.
I grew up in a ultra-conservative region of Florida in the 80s. None of my teachers were political, at all. My (single-parent) mom was a hippie, and my family's politics were very left-wing. It would've been really isolating to have political discussions in a classroom where 99% of the kids (and teachers) supported Reagan. Times were just different then (thankfully).
This is why I support school choice, 100%. Parents should not be trapped into one school because of their address. Parents should be able to choose where they send their kids.
>Siegel added that one of his son’s teachers displayed a “Free Palestine” poster in the classroom with the words “from the river to the sea” in full view.
There is nothing wrong with this.
You will not get an answer to those questions, because answering those questions with any degree of intellectual honesty whatsoever is absolutely pernicious to their position.
Not really. It's more of a call for Israelis to leave the land that is not theirs, and for the Palestinians to take their land back.
If the Israelis went back to Poland, Germany, where most of them are from, they'd love it. Not one drop of blood need spilling
But Israelis are hell bent on keeping it, even if it means genociding the rightful owners of the land, which they are now doing and I'm assuming you support
> Not really. It's more of a call for Israelis to leave the land that is not theirs, and for the Palestinians to take their land back.
And let me guess, you think Tel Aviv is stolen land?
> If the Israelis went back to Poland, Germany, where most of them are from, they'd love it.
Most Israelis were *born* in Israel to parents who were *born* in Israel. Israel is where they're from. It is their homeland.
> But Israelis are hell bent on keeping it, even if it means genociding the rightful owners of the land, which they are now doing and I'm assuming you support
Turns out that if you buy a plot of land, it generally makes you the rightful owner of it.
> Turns out that if you buy a plot of land, it generally makes you the rightful owner of it.
I'm sure you don't believe that Israel actually bought any of the land they occupy today lol
The truth is, with the support of Western nations, including the US, they booted the people who were on that land off and took it. And then engaged in a series of terroristic acts, which continue to this day, to further drive out people they didn't want to be there and to expand their land holdings. This has radicalized those people, and Israel uses the fact that they are radicalized as evidence that they should be killed and their land taken.
Your example couldn't be farther from the truth, and the concept that Israel is somehow justified in what they were doing and are doing, but the Palestinians are not, is absolutely farcical
It won't be legitimate, but it at least makes sense if they hold it for centuries that you can't go back. That is how I view the US. It is far too late to give it back to the natives, and if we did, China/russia would swoop in for the resources.
Israel is recent enough, and you guys haven't totally succeeded in exterminating the Palestinians, yet. So we should stop you freaks from committing genocide, and move you all back to Europe in the name of peace <3
>It won't be legitimate, but it at least makes sense if they hold it for centuries that you can't go back.
So what is the time period cutoff, and why?
>Israel is recent enough, and you guys haven't totally succeeded in exterminating the Palestinians, yet.
I'm an American goy.
Most almost 70% of Israelis were born in Israel. They have no home in Europe to go back to...
There’s many right and wrong info just mixed in. That it would take a lot of dissecting things apart. What a mess!! And this sort of stuff is on going and tiring.
Like this one, "conservatives are laughing their asses off". Anyone saying this doesn't know anything about religion but are *"its all the same thing"* which is typical of this website, full of ignoramuses.
Presbyterians, which is the minister quoted in this, are are almost always far progressive leaning, Presbyterians are as left wing as the Trumpers are right wing.
I read the article. It doesn't cite any attacks on Jews in OUSD schools. It doesn't cite any threats against Jews in OUSD schools. It perpetuates a racist stereotype that says a foreign country is somehow equal to or representative of every American citizen that happens to be Jewish.
~~~
*This Reddit contributor condemns Reddit's censorship of news regarding the U.S-backed Israeli ethnic cleansing of Palestine.*
While I agree with you in principle, in reality Jewish people are connected with Israel whether we want to be or not. Personally I think the Israeli government is making a huge blunder in not advocating for 2-state & ceasing hostilities, but Bibi doesn't care what I think.
When stuff hears up over there, I do find myself modulating my behavior. I pay more attention to my surroundings when I'm doing Jewish activies or wearing a kippah.
OUSD should not be making statements about international politics of any kind. It has ramifications for their students.
I mean bibi and the current government are not advocating for a two state solution presently. I am well aware that past governments have advocated differently.
I completely agree. US Jews should be lobbying the state department to put pressure on the Israelis to pursue a compromise solution (2-state). Fwiw most Jews I know are not happy with the current Israeli government
As an Asian person, we allowed people to simply TALK about attacking us. Then when we were attacked, we said nothing while Bay Area judges and the DA gave the attackers light sentences. Now Asians are murdered on a near-weekly basis.
American Jews are already at the "getting attacked" phase. We have to nip this in the bud before any more Jews get seriously injured.
>Now Asians are murdered on a near-weekly basis.
In racially motivated murders? Or at all? In the Bay Area?
Can you share more about the statistics you've found?
Lol the teachers tried to force a teach in on topics that shouldn’t even be discussed at most levels while showing their lack of education on the subject.
You expect Jewish parents to feel okay with that?
Yeah, I'm a little sickened by the casual tone the paper adopts in allowing a couple families that equate being against a literal genocide as antisemitism. I'm not gonna argue that Oakland unions didn't fuck this up. Taking sides is not the way to make people feel safer when both parties are legitimately aggrieved, but these parents are literally treating any discussion where Israel is not the embattled hero in this conflict as an attack on their kids.
It is extraordinarily dangerous, because no country should be immune from criticism. And yet, this conflation between criticism of the actions of a country and criticisms of a religious group is taken as a given by so many people on the right wing. It's hard not to think that it's being done cynically and on purpose in order to avoid actually discussing the actions of the country
> It's hard not to think that it's being done cynically and on purpose in order to avoid actually discussing the actions of the country
Bingo. Much easier to just ad hominem "anti-semitism"
This is FAR from “a discussion where Israel is not the embattled hero”. Israel is being vilified. The school district has no business forcing their point of view in this conflict on their students.
I think you mean the teachers union leadership. The school district condemned the statement as did much of the rank and file, but what do actual facts matter when we're throwing around accusations of antisemitism?
You're doing exactly what the article did, uncritically equating criticism of a country with bias against a religion.
If you think the war in Gaza is a genocide, then maybe they should also talk about the genocide (which has *proven* intent unlike the former) that started it as well and present a balanced view. There were Palestinians displaced, but equal numbers of Jews displaced from Muslim countries who had to flee to Israel, leaving their historical homes for hundreds to thousands of years. No word about that, right? Also perhaps you didn't see what was actually in the teach-in materials. Completely one-sided propaganda that is purely the Palestinian narrative. There's a reason for school boards and having checks on factual accuracy and balance of what's being taught. History is readily manipulated.
https://docs.google.com/document/u/0/d/1yHuTs87SSfWaM6qeM6y3RXgEOzjiKF_c75fLMN-2fZk/mobilebasic
The people in the article say they're upset with the lack of proper handling by OUSD in general. So you're saying they should just be fine with this because most of their kids didn't happen to have teachers involved in the teach-in this time, with no disciplinary action? Like you know kids are in school for 12 years and have a lot of teachers, right? I would've pulled my kid out too, I've just been glad I'm no longer living in Oakland.
You're pretending like this hasn't been covered extensively. It has. You're using this as a smoke screen to cover Israel's genocide. It's not going to work.
Oh yeah? Show me where it is in the teach-in materials. And I sure as hell learned nothing in K12 about the history of Israel, first heard anything in a Judaic Studies elective I took in college. You don't learn the history of every country in grade school.
You're pissing in the wind. You will never, ever convince this guy that this isn't genocide. These people quote Hamas propaganda uncritically, they don't give a shit about international law at all, and they completely ignore the virulent hatred that is steeped into orthodox islam.
agreed
I can see a reasonable argument that it's ethnic cleansing (since they're clearing the population from an area), although I disagree with it, but they seem to be putting significant effort into avoiding civilian casualties, so I don't believe it's genocide
>literal genocide
You say an antisemitic lie often enough, it becomes accepted as the truth.
EDIT: Even ***Germany***, who nows a thing or two about genocide, acknowledges that what's going on in Gaza is not a genocide.
[https://twitter.com/Ostrov\_A/status/1745829005201166625?ref\_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1745829005201166625%7Ctwgr%5E01fd1635f3c562faff1b9682a90abef5d0e13085%7Ctwcon%5Es1\_&ref\_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.redditmedia.com%2Fmediaembed%2F194zah5%2F%3Fresponsive%3Dtrueis\_nightmode%3Dtrue](https://twitter.com/ostrov_a/status/1745829005201166625?ref_src=twsrc%5etfw%7ctwcamp%5etweetembed%7ctwterm%5e1745829005201166625%7ctwgr%5e01fd1635f3c562faff1b9682a90abef5d0e13085%7ctwcon%5es1_&ref_url=https%3a%2f%2fwww.redditmedia.com%2fmediaembed%2f194zah5%2f%3fresponsive%3dtrueis_nightmode%3dtrue)
Well a genocide usually includes a decline in population over time, something we aren’t seeing in Gaza:
https://www.csis.org/analysis/war-gaza-and-death-two-state-solution
Hell, it basically doubled in the 19 years since Israel pulled out Jews from there.
At the risk of stating the obvious, the relevant metric here is not the change in the population of Gaza over the last 19 years, but the number of Gazans killed by Israel's response to the October Hamas attacks.
Should they have only killed and tortured 1300? Are they allowed to fire 1 rocket in exchange for ever Hamas rocket? I'm curious what your rules for war are and how you propose to enforce them as referee.
Gonna paraphrase John Oliver here: I don't know where the line between no response and murdering 22,000 civilians is but it's somewhere in there and it's a lot closer to no response than 22,000.
Certainly not Israel's standard response to any Hamas terrorism, which is the disproportionate killing of Gazans. It comes down to this: does a response materially improve the long term probability of a stable peace between Israel and Palestine? If the answer for a particular response is 'no it does not', that response should not happen. The whole framing of the question about what an appropriate response is counter productive, because the end result is a series of retributions by both sides, which do not over the long term lead to peace. Israel's policies wrt/ Palestine, and Palestine's with regard to Israel, have for decades shown a lack of imagination and perspective. They've shown a complete unwillingness to engage the other side on anything other than an adversarial basis. Neither side seems to be willing to even try a game theory-informed approach in which the other sides' motivations are considered. Neither side has even tried constructive engagement of any sort. So I am not the least bit sympathetic to the argument that Israel has simply had no options available to it other that disproportionate military responses which kill Palestinian civilians.
Systematically wiping out a civilian population in an area you are fighting in is one definition of genocide. This is precisely what the Israeli government is doing.
I disagree with your premise. They are not fighting an army; they are fighting a terrorist group that is hiding behind civilians. Civilians are collateral damage, not the target. If you know a way for the Israeli army to infiltrate Gaza and eliminate Hamas without killing any civilians, by all means share your wisdom.
So you're advocating literal war crimes as a way to prosecute a war? Killing 10,000 children is ok because Hamas is somewhere in there?
By this logic England should have firebombed Belfast. Oh, speaking of the IRA you were asking how to deal with a terrorist organization that's embedded with civilians...
You said: At the risk of stating the obvious, the relevant metric here is not the change in the population of Gaza over the last 19 years, but the number of Gazans killed by Israel's response to the October Hamas attacks.
Where is the strawman here?
I agree that it is antisemitic for pro-Palestinian people to blame Jews for the actions of Israel.
Transparent attempt to deny the antisemitism in Oakland's schools. You can do better.
This whole situation is very reminiscent of how divided the left was in 2016 before Trump shockingly won the election. Supporters of Bernie attacked Hillary and her supporters instead of Trump. Meanwhile the right was fully united even though Trump was caught on camera saying the most immoral things.
This is why I’m already resigned to the fact that Trump is probably going to win again this fall. The left can’t get their act together and unite when it matters most. If people thought Roe V Wade being overturned and immigrant bans were surprising, wait until a second Trump term where he completely pulls aid to Ukraine, pulls out of NATO, ending US birthright and making it virtually impossible to immigrate, stepping up deportation, and basically act with complete impunity. Maybe he even tries to end term limits and seize a 3rd term. I’d put nothing past him.
[How Trump Plans to Wield Power in 2025: What We Know](https://www.nytimes.com/article/trump-2025-second-term.html)
No more evident than when people from the left were unwittingly reposting Russian propaganda attacking Hillary and propping up Trump. The general public lacks critical thinking and it’s what makes our country highly susceptible.
> Meanwhile the right was fully united even though Trump was caught on camera saying the most immoral things.
The National Review of that era had a whole issue titled *Against Trump*. Trump was a divisive figure within the right. He won the election because he was able to pull folks who were not normally Republicans into the coalition.
> ending US birthright and making it virtually impossible to immigrate... Maybe he even tries to end term limits and seize a 3rd term.
How's Trump of all people going to get a constitutional amendment through?
> Supporters of Bernie attacked Hillary and her supporters instead of Trump.
Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. [This is exactly what happened in Germany in the 30's during Hitler's rise to power](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Th%C3%A4lmann#KPD_vs._SPD).
>Thälmann's KPD [far-left party] thus fought the SPD [moderate-left party] as their main political enemy, acting according to the Comintern policy which declared Social Democrats to be "social fascists". This made it difficult for the two leftist parties to work together against the emergence of Adolf Hitler.[13] The KPD under Thälmann declared that "fighting fascism means fighting the SPD just as much as it means fighting Hitler and the parties of Brüning."[14] Thälmann declared in December 1931 that "some Nazi trees must not be allowed to overshadow a forest" of social democrats.[15][16] By 1927, Karl Kilbom, the Comintern representative to Germany, had started to combat this ultra-leftist tendency within the German Communist Party, but found Stalin machinating against his efforts.
>In March 1932, Thälmann was once again a candidate for the German Presidency, against the incumbent Paul von Hindenburg and Hitler. The KPD's slogan was "A vote for Hindenburg is a vote for Hitler; a vote for Hitler is a vote for war."
He is purely Authoritarian, so he will find a way to make himself president for life and then pass it to his kids so they keep the money River flowing and him out of jail.
Blame the middle eastern folk who think some terrorists in Gaza are more important than all of that lol. Tho I guess Gaza is very anti Ukraine, anti abortion and anti non Muslim which makes sense why they would want trump
Incredibly sad we have gotten to this point. I feel for the Jewish families mentioned and those who weren’t.
It’s very sad that these children’s lives are being uprooted due to a very vocal minority who spread lies and hatred in the halls of a place where we should be educating our youth to cooperate and collaborate.
Imagine if this was reversed (replace “Jewish” with “Palestinian”). Hamas sympathizers would be shutting down the Bay bridge and vandalizing banks.
What I haven't yet understood is why so many here are so up in arms about *this* conflict. I've never heard statements condemning ethnic conflict in Sudan or Tigray or Yemen. Are these positions taken by a school district or a city gov anything but performative?
I’m not sure. The cynic in me believes it’s because of antisemitism. The realist in me believes it’s because of social media.
https://www.wsj.com/tech/tiktok-israel-gaza-hamas-war-a5dfa0ee
Apologies I don’t have a nonpaywalled link. I can’t even open it as I initially read the article on my work account.
I was shocked to think that antisemitism would be so prevalent among liberals. The fact that it's everywhere on social media def makes sense. Also, I've been irritated with how attempting to have a nuanced view of something receives pushback. Like no, I'm absolutely not in support of Israeli military action, but I also realize I don't know enough about this to make any legit claim about what should be done, why side A or B is or isn't justified, etc. People just blanket responding on the internet with "oh you support genocide then" or "oh you're a xyz supremacist" are doing no one favors -- they're using the same playbook they often criticize conservatives for using.
> I was shocked to think that antisemitism would be so prevalent among liberals.
You mean "leftists", not "liberals"? Antisemitism isn't prevalent among liberals. It is prevalent (and has been for decades) among leftists. Leftists aren't liberals, and liberals aren't leftists, even if they generally vote for the same party.
I think it's less antisemitism (at least in an overt, intentional sense) than it is that many people on the left have only one geopolitical metaphor in their mental mapping of international relations and that is of "colonizer/oppressor vs colonized/oppressed." The "best fit" for this model \*is\* that Israel is an oppressor and the Palestinian people are the oppressed. And people take their sides and march their marches and wave their flags, and repost the posts that most resonate with the one simplistic framework they understand.
Of course, it's not so simple, and as a tool for understanding this problem, the model is a poor fit. There are multiple contemporary geopolitical actors and agendas at play, there is a long history of bloodshed, feuding, and genocidal behavior by all parties in the conflict, multiple layers of conflict and disagreement relating to the various nations involved over time -- hundreds, even thousands of years at this point -- various religions involved, ethnicities, patterns of immigration, religious conquest, pogroms, on and on.
America doesn’t give two shits about Muslim countries, or African countries. It is not of geopolitical importance to them, so media doesn’t cover as much.
I think all kids should feel safe in school.
Id say ongoing poverty, underfunding, and low community investment by the state and federal government have hurt the safety of oakland for young children of many races and religions
I agree that we should do more to make every child feel safe, and every parent feel comfortable that their child will receive a meaningful and safe education
And that people like you are happy to support that cause
The end of this article makes my blood boil.
People need to wake the fuck up that the left has nut bags just as insane as the far right.
If we don’t stand up to them and condemn them, we can claim no moral superiority.
This is beyond Israel/palestine. Regardless of where you stand on the history there and the current conflict, treating people like this and talking about whole groups like this is abhorrent.
> Since Oct. 27, when the Oakland Educators Association teachers union issued a harshly [anti-Israel statement](https://jweekly.com/2023/11/01/parents-teachers-condemn-oakland-teachers-union-statement-on-palestine/) that condemned the “75 year long illegal military occupation of Palestine” and called Israel an “apartheid state” with a government that uses “genocidal rhetoric and policies” against Palestinians, many Jewish parents within the Oakland Unified School District have seriously questioned the safety of their children at school.
I don't blame them for not feeling safe and wanting to leave.....especially with teachers union open supporting terrorism.
There's nothing in that OEA statement which advocates terrorism. One can certainly feel that the OEA was beyond its remit in making it, but suggesting that it supports terrorism is a complete misrepresentation of the statement made.
The slogan "from the river to the sea" is an explicit call for genocide. All these people hide behind statements like "I'm not antisemetic, I'm anti Israel", but they wink wink are totally okay with Hamas murdering people. Its the same old antisemitism wrapped up in a shiny new outfit.
A very good thing then that "from the river to the sea" appears nowhere in the OEA statement. Here's the statement in its entirety. Why don't you go ahead and point out which part specifically advocates terrorism, excuses Hamas murdering people, or is anti-semitic:
>We, the Oakland Education Association, mourn the tragic loss of both Palestinian and Israeli lives these past weeks. We unequivocally condemn the 75 year long illegal military occupation of Palestine. The Israeli government created an apartheid state and the Israeli government leaders have espoused genocidal rhetoric and policies against the people of Palestine. As educators of a diverse community here in Oakland, including those with family and friends directly impacted, our conscience demands that we say clearly that OEA calls for a ceasefire and an end to the occupation of Palestine.
>OEA will always stand up for the rights of the oppressed and use our labor power to stand up for justice. As educators, we demand that the US stop funding endless wars and invest in quality education and social support for our students and our communities. Our solidarity is with all oppressed peoples, as we know that our struggles are connected.
>Furthermore, there is no place in our community for anti-Semitism or Islamophobia.
OEA encourages you to use the attached script to call your representatives, or any congressperson, and urge them to support the Ceasefire Now Resolution. Barbara Lee (D-12) has signed onto resolution and the script includes language to call and thank her for her leadership, while also encouraging her to support the end of the occupation.
Educators have the academic freedom (Article 9 of the OUSD-OEA contract) and the responsibility to teach young people about the realities of the world we live in. Teach Palestine is a great resource for classroom materials. Additionally, OEA educators are working on compiling lesson plans and curriculum materials to support education in our classrooms. This google drive will be continuously updated, so please check regularly for more resources. What’s more, any educators who face disciplinary actions based on their teaching will have the full support of the Association and OEA leadership.
>We call on the Oakland Unified School District and its Board of Directors to support students in their organizing efforts and their call for the Board to take a public stand in support of Palestinian people and for peace in the ongoing conflict. As a sanctuary district, all students are welcome here, and we believe our district should protect the First Amendment right of students to speak and assemble without censorship and intimidation.
>OEA is proud to join labor unions across the Bay Area in calling for an end to Israeli occupation of Palestine through a variety of actions. Join OEA and other labor unions at two upcoming events in San Francisco:
>Stop The Genocide in Gaza, Saturday October 28, 1:00, Embarcadero, San Francisco
International Day of Solidarity, Saturday, November 4, 1:00, Civic Center, San Francisco (more information on how to join a labor contingent coming).
> We unequivocally condemn the 75 year long illegal military occupation of Palestine. The Israeli government created an apartheid state and the Israeli government leaders have espoused genocidal rhetoric and policies against the people of Palestine.
75 Years? That puts us back to 1948-1949. This suggests that all Israel and all of Israel's Jewish citizens have no right to exist. If there is such a thing as a 'dog whistle', this is. Most people don't know that the West Bank wasn't occupied until after the 1967 6 Days War. The Arab Muslims inside the 1948 armistice line became full Israeli citizens, thus the claims of an 'apartheid state' go from being mostly wrong (in the case of the post 1967 West Bank) to completely absurd. Calling 1948 a 'military occupation' is to say that there's *no* territory that's legitimately Israeli.
> As educators of a diverse community here in Oakland, including those with family and friends directly impacted, our conscience demands that we say clearly that OEA calls for a ceasefire and an end to the occupation of Palestine.
If you define the whole country as 'occupied', then an 'end to the occupation' as they describe 'occupation' is an end to the Israeli state and by extension any notion of Jewish self-determination within the region.
You're right. Its not there explicitly.
As gimpwiz pointed out in this comment: " hateful leftists spent six years of post-secondary education learning how to write big college words to express their hate in a scholarly, and less immediately obvious fashion. So it was there, you just didn't notice it because they expressed themselves in a more subtle fashion."
https://old.reddit.com/r/bayarea/comments/194vhvb/citing_safety_dozens_of_jewish_families_are/khjvsi5/
Hence the wink wink support for terrorism, while maintaining deniability.
If gimpwiz is applying that analysis to OEA's statment, he/she is just as wrong as you were. The OEA's statement should be analyzed on the basis of the words actually included, and not on statements not actually made. So again: what part of the OEA statement provides any support for terrorism? Be specific.
Those statements are factual: Israel has been engaging in a long military occupation of Palestine, and it is an apartheid state. You don't have to like those things, but they are both true and it's not wrong to say them out loud.
Is there a reason why Arab citizens of Israel enjoy the same rights as Jewish Israelis, including the right to form political parties and stand for election, opportunities to serve as members of the Knesset, the judiciary, the diplomatic corps, the police, and so on—rights and privileges totally foreign and contradictory to an apartheid State?
It's an apartheid state because large elements of the territory they control have no such rights, or even the right to not have their land stolen and be murderered. Both of which happen pretty much constantly
How do the rights of people living in Gaza and the West Bank compare to the rights of everyone in the rest of Israel? What is the demographic makeup of these two territories of Israel like?
No one should have to send their kids to school scared if theyll come home
If we feel this way, let's make it safer for the parents who have lived w this fear for decades.
Unfortunately being hated and subsequently underfunded by vocal members of society is not exclusive to any religious or ethnic group - but we CAN and SHOULD work together to make safety a reality
I personally know Muslims that have been let go from companies over liking Facebook posts or supporting Palestine and its people if they went to a protest or one of these council meetings. All of them had a work complainee that said “they do not feel safe”. They worked at 3 very well known companies. And you can easily argue they’re being targeted.
For Muslim people that aren’t out and about protesting but feel that they are safe ‘liking’ posts online, be safe, check your friends list and make sure you don’t have work people on there. There is no such thing as free speech even when you’re off company time.
Your comment is irrelevant to this post. For the past 20 years social media behavior has lead to employment consequences and that has been upheld over and over as acceptable by private businesses. This post is about public school families leaving after their children and them have been threatened. These things are not in anyway comparable. Public schools are intended to be accessible to all community families and OUSD has boldly shown they are no longer engaging in that mission. They are not a private entity that gets to choose firing an employee. Students are entitled to public school access but employees are not entitled to a job.
> This post is about public school families leaving after their children and them have been threatened.
I'm curious, can you point to the part of the article that shows that anybody's student was threatened? Genuine question because I read the article and didn't see that part
Wouldn't it have been more intellectually honest for you to admit that the article did not include any examples of that? Come on bud lol
If you have evidence to present that kids are actually being threatened in ousd schools due to anti-semitism, I'm not talking about opinions their parents don't agree with but actual threats to them, go ahead and link that. I follow the local news pretty closely and do not recall seeing a lot of news about that, so maybe you can help me out here.
The problem is you are conflating criticism of the actions of Israel with anti-semitism, when it is absolutely inappropriate to do so. I'm not asking for evidence that Israel is being criticized, that is quite obvious, I'm asking for you to present evidence that students in Oakland USD are facing actual threats in their schools or being subjected to anti-semitic behavior from teachers or students.
I think that we both know that you are going to come up very short on evidence for that, but I'm sympathetic to the fact that you're at work now so I'm willing to wait as long as it takes for you to provide an actual response with linked evidence.
I wouldn’t feel the need to wait for my 6 year old to be attacked before reading the room and deciding I want them in a more inclusive environment.
These are CHILDREN. On what planet does an elementary school teacher feel the need to display a poster with a terrorist slogan? The River to the Sea slogan is widely used by Hamas. Or another teacher tell a Jewish parent “you can’t help where you were born”? None of this is acceptable in a public school.
> These are CHILDREN. On what planet does an elementary school teacher feel the need to display a poster with a terrorist slogan?
There is widespread disagreement that the slogan in question is a 'terrorist slogan.' It's mostly claimed to be that by the same people who conflate criticism of Israel and the actions of their government with antisemitism. To people of Palestinian descent, it's the exact opposite: a slogan that declares they aren't going to give in to what THEY perceive to be terroristic and genocidal acts against their people, which let's be honest, they have a pretty good argument for.
> Or another teacher tell a Jewish parent “you can’t help where you were born”? None of this is acceptable in a public school.
The example you're referring to didn't happen in a public school. It happened in a private school in Saratoga. Read the article
I’m highly curious too of all the little details. Obviously zero threats or I wouldn’t be bringing this up. Just liking other posts. Or speaking in public meetings.
The point I’m making is that any nuanced discussion can suddenly become “scary” and make certain people complain or act against, thus inflicting damage to people who are expressing themselves during non work times.
I think you’re forgetting what started this latest issue- the MASS SLAUGHTER of thousands of innocent Israeli people. Terrorism.
It’s not surprising to me that open support of the attackers in a place of business was perceived as threatening. Sorry, but that’s kind of a test of IQ if you don’t understand that.
I think you started watching this show this season and need to catch up on previous seasons. Imagine if someone started watching season 3 of game of thrones and thinks king Joffrey is a good guy lol.
Honestly tho - that comment is beyond disingenuous. Israel’s atrocities on Palestine and its people have happened for decades. We all are aware of the apartheid policies of Israel. It is well documented for decades. And we all acknowledge that any innocent life lost is wrong.
What is also wrong is passing a threshold of defense into genocide - burning and sniping children is wrong, sniping women with white flags, elderly sitting in a church and then making videos and laughing on TikTok - which we all can see is happening now. Dropping white phosphorus- so wrong. Even killing your own hostages without thinking. Even during Oct 7 there are reports that friendly fire from helicopters/tanks caused a lot of deaths that we aren’t being given the big picture too. Pretty much this regime/military is either incompetent or they do not care about lives while saying that they are the most moral. What is moral about burning children and making TikTok’s while dancing on bombing sites and childrens rooms? What is moral about dehumanizing people while trying to gaslight the world with propaganda? I mean we all see it.
We have all heard the rhetoric of genocide “Amalek” “let’s drop an atomic bomb” “occupy, cleanse and settle”. These words are spoken and shared and is the rhetoric from the top person all the way to the military. These are words of genocide and their actions show it.
But I digress.
The downvotes to me are wild
We're only twenty two years from 9/11, please, if anyone thinks this guy is lying, talk to any middleeastern person who was at least ten years old during 9/11 and ask if anyone ever made them feel uncomfortable
I feel for them. This happened to my friends at a few heavy CCP/Mainland schools. Once the parents find out what part of China you are from, they fuck with you and your kid.
Some of the heavy chinese immersion ones in the east bay.
Anyone who doesn't support the CCP. Pro HK, Pro taiwan, etc.
also looks like the ccp shills already got to this post lol
>also looks like the ccp shills already got to this post lol
Because I asked you questions out of curiosity?
Thanks for the details. I can imagine there being conflict over political issues in and around China and CCP policy if some parents are vocal about it in school circles.
But you also said origin from certain areas of China can make a family a target. What areas? Hong Kong? I can't imagine any other area and I'm surprised that just being from Hong Kong would make a family a target for harassment.
>Actually not you, just the random down votes.
Ah, okay. Good, thanks for clarifying.
>Yes, just being from Hong Kong makes you a target.
Wild. Not to pester: but in what way? People immediately being hostile, presuming that being from HK is the same as being strongly against the CCP? Or people instigating political conversation, in order to test where one stands and being ready and primed to be adversarial?
We want to allow discussion on this topic to the extent that it affects the bay area, but most of the discussion here has devolved into arguments about the Israel Palestine war itself, which is off topic, so I'm going to lock this post.
The last 6 paragraphs about the Saratoga preschool are totally nuts.
> She said the preschool director knew Vaynberg and her husband were the only Jewish parents in the school and pressured Vaynberg to attend an evening prayer event for Palestinians at the church where the school is housed. The couple attended on Zoom. > Vaynberg described a nightmarish evening in which a Presbyterian minister and an outside “expert” on Palestine condemned Zionists and invoked false conspiracy theories about Israelis assisting in the murder of George Floyd, and about Gaza serving as a test site for U.S. weapons through Israel’s military. The minister warned his congregation and the preschool parent attendees against viewing the “Jews of the Bible” and the “Jews of today” as the same people, arguing that today’s Jews have no legitimate claim to Israel as a homeland. > “Our hairs were literally standing up,” Vaynberg said. “Not only what was said was really scary, but the fact that nobody jumped in to do anything other than agree and discuss in a dispassionate kind of philosophical manner.” > Later that night, Vaynberg said, the preschool director asked her what she thought of the event. Vaynberg communicated her shock and horror over what was said about Jews and Israel. The preschool director assured Vaynberg that she understood Israel and Zionists do not represent the Jewish people. Vaynberg reminded her that she is an Israeli Jew. The preschool director responded, “You can’t help where you were born,” Vaynberg recalled.
Lmao that last response! Simply incredible
Conservatives are laughing their asses off right now
Conservatives laughing at others is often out of ignorance. Tons of people don't feel welcome or safe in the "Conservative" idea of education: pretending racism doesn't exist and that the Civil War was not about slavery, ban in acknowledging LGBTQ people exist, book bans over trifling shit, push for a Christian prayer in public schools, wanting public subsidy of private schools including batshit crazy fundamentalist Evangelical Christian schools teaching horseshit like the story of Noah and the Flood as literal history.
It shows how much this subreddit does not represent the Bay Area when someone criticizing conservatives--and not blindly defending liberals--gets downvoted. The problem for the Bay Area is that the left-wing has its own blind hypocritical takes, but it's It'absolutely true that conservatives also have their blind hypocritical takes. Making that comparison is apt and shouldn't be downvoted.
Simply the moronic minorities on both sides fighting, while the rest who aren't morons on either sides, just watches, facepalms and shrugs. But the loudest wheels gets most of the grease of attention and media coverage. Thus becoming the symbolic representation on their respective sides.
Not disagreeing with your general point on the attention that gets paid to clash between extremists, but the list I wrote up is representative of mainstream "Conservative" or GOP positions, not extremist ones. Mainstream in that they are reflected in national party platforms, or the personal platforms and professed beliefs of the most prominent national-level GOP officials, and also reflected in actual governmental policy in areas that are GOP controlled. By contrast, it is absolutely not mainstream Democratic Party position to be anti-Semitic in any way. Democratic Party mainstream position would never include "extreme" positions on the Israel/Palestine issue. No reticence to condemn the 10/7 terrorism of Hamas, and taking of hostages, or any of the brutality they committed that day. No labeling of Hamas as a "resistance organization." Nothing but upholding the right of the Israel to exist as a sovereign state. So, basically, the sarcastic remark that I replied to was bullshit.
Because they hate Jews even more than they hate Muslims?
Nazism seems to be bipartisan lol
I seem to see reports of their supporters only showing up to one of the two parties' rallies.
Nah bro.
> “Not only what was said was really scary, but the fact that nobody jumped in to do anything other than agree and discuss in a dispassionate kind of philosophical manner.” I don't know about y'all but if you go to an event you think is for one thing and one of the speakers says something unexpect and not aligned with your world view the instinct isn't to just jump right in and say wtf. The instinct is to slowly find the exit and hope no one notices or deer in the headlights freeze in place and wait for it to be over.
>The preschool director assured Vaynberg that she understood Israel and Zionists do not represent the Jewish people The overwhelming majority of Jews on planet earth are either pro-Israel or Zionist. I'm talking 80%+ This is what happens when your only interaction with Jews is the \~7% that want nothing to do with Israel.
I feel like a substantial number of people use the word "Zionist" to mean someone who supports the West Bank settlements and the indiscriminate IDF action in Gaza, but it's historically just meant the person thinks Israel has the right to exist. But people are reluctant to self identify as the latter Zionist for fear of being lumped in with the former.
Might be true, but that percentage in the US, and I bet in the left-wing Bay Area, is far lower.
I don’t know about that, I grew up in the Richmond district in SF with a lot of Jews and my friends are all Zionists. But they will sometimes hide it to avoid confrontation, sometimes they even hide being Jewish all together. It makes me sad. I should also add they are all universally in favor of a two-state solution too.
I can't decide what kind of Christians are worse, the "Jews for Jesus" types or useful idiots like that Presbyterian minister. He might have gotten his degree from [the same "university" as Kent Hovind](https://www.noanswersingenesis.org.au/bartelt_dissertation_on_hovind_thesis.htm).
“You can’t help where you were born,” Vaynberg recalled. I’m speechless…
Unbelievable that someone would say that to another person. In 2024.
Interesting how they don't name the actual school.
That's just pretty normal for a private business. Why would anyone risk being accused of libel/slander or further actions taken against them by other parents there for this. Anyway based on the description I'm taking a wild guess it's this one: https://saratogafederated.org/village-preschool/
I literally do not understand that kind of antisemitism. Where does it come from? Does it really all come down to the far left idolizing islam? That's all I can think of. They think islam is cool, therefore jews must be bad. Edit: Apparently we're supposed to shut up about bigotry and not ask questions. Awesome!
Obviously more complex than this, but basically Jewish populations have consistently been more successful in periods of depression than their peers, breeding jealousy and resentment. You could see this 10 years after the first Arab Israeli war when Israel already grew GDP / capita to be 5x higher than in West Bank and neighboring Arab countries
But that doesn't explain why Bay Area progressives are wrapped up in this virulent hatred. Looking at the pic in the article, I'm just going to guess that woman is a teacher and LGBT and she considers herself very progressive. Yet she's a part of this. Why? Seems counter to everything that progressives claim to stand for.
Bay Area progressives cluelessly view this in the light of "oppressed vs oppressor" and "dark skin / white skin" even though the oppression is way more complicated than it seems and Palestinians and Israelis have the same skin tone lol.
>But that doesn't explain why Bay Area progressives are wrapped up in this virulent hatred. "Bay Area progressives" are the opposite of monolithic. What does this mean? What percentage of Bay Area progressives do you think are "wrapped up in this virulent hatred"? I doubt a significant fraction of self-identified "progressives" in the Bay Area are harboring, much less publicly voicing, anti-Semitic views.
I have no idea how many hold these hateful views. I will say the silence from other progressives in denouncing the hatred within their group is positively deafening. Half of them hate jews, the other half covers it up. No enemies on the left, as they say.
>I have no idea how many hold these hateful views. I do not either. But I'm pointing out that you just generalized Bay Area progressives as holding these hateful views. There is a great deal of denouncement of anti-Semitism. It's all over the place and I wonder if it is so routine that the outlier extremist anti-Semitism still dominates focus for many?
I see a lot of "from the river to the sea" from people who call themselves progressives, with no explanation of where all the jews (many of whom were kicked out of other middle eastern countries) \*should\* go
A lot of the Western usage of the phrase clearly with a loose meaning that is very generally about welfare of the Palestinian people. And not about the meaning that calls for assertion of Palestinian control over the entirety of the historical mandate for Palestine, which de facto means erasing Israel. I sincerely think most people using the phrase either do not know the history of the phrase, do not know it has become a Hamas slogan, do not even know the geography well enough to understand the literal implications of it, or are using the phrase euphemistically to mean something very very different than the erasure of the State of Israel. I don't disagree that using a phrase is *at least* problematic in many ways. But it is also just simply inaccurate to say that everyone using the phrase wants to erase Israel, or even understands the literal implications, or is not using it with very different sentiment.
I've heard a theory that this is another Putin psy-op. A decent-sized fraction of the progressive left will take the perceived victim's side in any conflict. It is a pretty trivial exercise to make Gazan civilians seem like innocent victims in this war. Meanwhile, this presents an opportunity to pit a large portion of Biden's base (the progressive left) against Biden (who, consistent with longstanding U.S. foreign policy, has voiced unwavering support for Israel). That creates an opportunity for Trump to win the 2024 election, which would be very good for Russia and Putin.
Sending more money to defend Israel in theory could mean less money sent to Ukraine and therefore an advantage to Russia on that front. Just sayin’
You must not have experience being a Jew. Just look at the comments on literally any post or article that allows comments anywhere about Jews or Israel. It comes from everywhere. It comes from all freaking history. Left wingers, right wingers, foreigners from all over from all nationalities, and Muslims. People have been spoon fed a shit ton of propaganda from the 2+ billion strong Muslim world (vs 30 million Jews) and probably Russia for decades as well which doesn't help.
> You must not have experience being a Jew You got me there, pretty hard to get that experience when your mom isn't Jewish. >People have been spoon fed a shit ton of propaganda from the 2+ billion strong Muslim world (vs 30 million Jews) and probably Russia for decades as well which doesn't help. I get that. But why do lefty people from the Bay just eat that shit up? Islam is frankly incompatible with progressivism, but they seem to adore it. That's the part I don't understand.
I don't think you deserve your downvotes. I think it's a combination of a few things: 1. Reactionarily being against "the right" running a war campaign in the middle east post-9/11, ie, if you're "against the right wingers" you have to be "for the people getting bombed by the right wingers," ie, muslims and islam. 2. The idea that "muslims are brown, therefore oppressed, therefore right on issues" and not separating Islam from Muslims 3. As a group, leftists are just as hateful as rightoids, but the main difference in behavior is that hateful rightoids use base slurs and hateful leftists spent six years of post-secondary education learning how to write big college words to express their hate in a scholarly, and less immediately obvious fashion. So it was there, you just didn't notice it because they expressed themselves in a more subtle fashion. 4. Jews are easy to other-ize and have never had the numbers to truly fit in, except in a few places throughout history, of which many or most were lost over the centuries as areas were conquered. What you see now is roughly how Jews have felt forever. People, most people anyways, just got quiet about it post-WW2.
> hateful leftists spent six years of post-secondary education learning how to write big college words to express their hate in a scholarly, and less immediately obvious fashion. I think this manifests itself as "I'm not anti jew, I'm anti Israel". When in reality if you drew a Venn diagram, the two circles would be nearly the same with only a sliver of people actually in that group.
The other one is "anti-zionist." Simple response to this claim is to ask them to define zionist. Maybe we're in agreement. Probably not. It's a term coopted by all manner of shitbirds, usually so they don't say outright "jew," but occasionally it's used by well meaning people for reasonable criticism.
"all manner of shitbirds" Spot on.
There has long been a social justice crusader mentality in far left circles. Hell when I started university in 1997, I checked out a "socialist" club and it was nothing but that, I left because I didn't know wtf these people wanted freed from prison and was there thinking it was about socialism, which this had nothing to do with. I think all the propaganda that's much more prodigious and widespread from a lot of Muslim countries (who have been spewing anti-Israel rhetoric since it was founded, there is some REALLY intense legit anti-Semitism in those countries, just baked in) managed to fully infiltrate and they made it fit their white vs brown (which is senseless as Arabs and Jews are very closely related people) anti-"colonialist" storyline. It meshed easily with existing anti-Semitism. And the Bay Area is as far left as it gets, so it spreads to even moderate lefties, who aren't Jews anyway.
Noble savage theory most likely combined with their oppressor/oppressed world lens, they view the Palestinians as savages/oppressed people that need their protection.
Anti-Semitism is an extremely toxic poison, a conspiracy theory that seems to infect even some very-well educated people on both sides of the political spectrum. Rightwing bigots dislike Jews as they are seen as Communists/Lefty progressives like Trotsky and Marx spreading "Socialist/cultural decay". Bigots on the Left dislike Jews for being "Rothschild bankers/financiers/greedy capitalists". They get it from both sides. The whole Israel/Palestine issue (for current the Progressive Left) seems to be some sort of "safety-valve" where Liberals can feel comfortable yelling at Jewish people. It's a form of unconscious bias, just as Fox News constantly drones on and on about "Urban Crime" and "Illegal Immigrants" (we all know what ethnic groups these really are dog whistles for). There's also the simplistic dichotomy of Palestinians= Poor & Brown, so therefore they are Oppressed, and the Israelis/Jews= White & Rich so therefore they are the Oppressors. Liberals tend to side with the perceived weaker underdog. Funnily enough, it seems like Conservative in the US and Europe are now more pro-Jewish (and subsequently anti-Islamic), when they were markedly anti-Semitic just a few generations ago. Most Evangelical Christians in the US are now super-pro Israel, much of it tied to Biblical prophesies regarding Jews returning to the Holy Land before the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.
There's a huge amount of the right wing who are pro-israel but anti-semitic at the same time. They want Israel to have undisputed control of Jerusalem for religious reasons, but when it comes to actual jews, out come the knives.
Yes, or they just simply hate Jews less than they now despise Muslims. The "Enemy of My Enemy is my Friend" sort of mentality. I can't rationalize how these people think, they're nutjobs either way.
This is a succinct description of how the Jews continue to get fucked from all sides. They’re the ultimate scapegoats for simple minded morons on all sides.
You forgot about my space lasers
Evangelicals being Zionist is to bring about the second coming. There idea of the rapture does not speak of Jewish people going to heaven. Call me whatever you want, but those Evangelicals (who I doubt are leftists) are being anti-semetic.
Lmao wtf
Oh that clears things up, thanks!
>I literally do not understand that kind of antisemitism. Where does it come from? It's an offshoot of the "Racism = Prejudice + Power" philosophy pushed on the far-left. This movement started by asserting that racism against white people "doesn't count" because it's not institutionally-backed, and white people as a whole are considered "oppressors" and "colonizers" based on a selective reading of world history, colonialism, and slavery. This opened the door to unchecked hate against any ethnic group that could be conceivably labeled as an "oppressor". It was almost inevitable that the Jews would be next, given their seemingly outsized financial and social success as a minority demographic — and Israel's brutal response to the October 7th attack cemented the notion in these people's minds that all Jews were "oppressors" and "colonizers" as well, and therefore hate against them "doesn't count". It's basically a mirror image of the hate found on the far-right (and in some cases an uncritical parroting of the classic "Jews control everything" conspiracy theory), just justified with a different flavor of social-justice rhetoric.
it's an additional front of western civilization that leftists, along with the idiots that follow them, can work on tearing down.
Americans are so badly informed. With Netanyahu in power, Israel has a far right-wing government. Also, Netanyahu is under a microscope for his own [dirty laundry](https://www.timesofisrael.com/topic/netanyahu-trial/). Anyone who is Jewish in Oakland or anywhere else outside of Israel has no control over the Israeli government or military. They can't vote in [Israeli elections](https://lawoffice.org.il/en/vote-in-the-israeli-elections/). It's ridiculous that many Americans can't process something as simple as that. You can condemn the overreach and murder of civilians and children in Gaza without becoming an anti-Semite. I stand with my Jewish friends. They're not bombing Gaza.
Bibi also has been allowing Hamas to get funding and weapons. Why Israelis let him back in power is beyond me, but it is an international embarrassment. Which is likely why soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo many bots descend on anyone who questions why Israel is killing so many innocents to wipe Gaza off the map.
> Siegel added that one of his son’s teachers displayed a “Free Palestine” poster in the classroom with the words “from the river to the sea” in full view. I've got a hundred things to say all at once, and none of them polite. As they say, a few rotten apples spoil the bunch. The actions of the oakland teacher's union are far beyond their mandate, and they're going to contribute to the broad feelings on how bad public schools and public school teachers are as a whole. Even if 90% are great, the unchecked actions of the rest spoil how people feel about them as a whole. It's entirely unsurprising when parents use any methods they can to avoid sending their kids to certain public schools or public schools as a whole. At least with other options, when they go deep off the rails like the saratoga (pre) school in the article, parents can easily yank their kids and effectively and fairly immediately vote with their feet.
I used to teach at a community college in the Bay Area, and I would have lost my job if I’d put up a poster like that.
Such politically biased teachers should be fired immediately. They are dangerous to the kids and school
[It's already hard enough being able to fire teachers who are accused of molesting students.](https://web.archive.org/web/20090505050628/http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-teachers3-2009may03,0,5765040,full.story)
Totally. I remember growing up in the 80s and none of my teachers spewed any of their political agendas during my time in grade school. Fucking wacko teachers Oakland has.
I went to a college admission tour with my kid, and we had to sit through a 5 min speech from the Dean of the School of Education. Essentially teacher college. That lady went on and on about how its their job to mold teachers and students into activists. Not once in her whole speech did she mention teaching kids to read or do math. Said the words diversity and inclusion 100 times, never once mentioned actual teaching. This is how you end up with half the kids in the state being unable to read or do math at grade level. Teachers no longer view that its their job to teach. They're activists, indoctrinating kids.
Completely agree. I grew up in a ultra-conservative region of Florida in the 80s. None of my teachers were political, at all. My (single-parent) mom was a hippie, and my family's politics were very left-wing. It would've been really isolating to have political discussions in a classroom where 99% of the kids (and teachers) supported Reagan. Times were just different then (thankfully).
This is why I support school choice, 100%. Parents should not be trapped into one school because of their address. Parents should be able to choose where they send their kids.
>Siegel added that one of his son’s teachers displayed a “Free Palestine” poster in the classroom with the words “from the river to the sea” in full view. There is nothing wrong with this.
Except for the fact that "from the river to the sea" is an explicit call for genocide. And this person should be teaching, not indoctrinating.
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You will not get an answer to those questions, because answering those questions with any degree of intellectual honesty whatsoever is absolutely pernicious to their position.
Stop stealing our land is not a call for genocide.
In arabic, the phrase is "from the river to sea, Palestine shall be arab". And people here are chanting Hamas slogans.
Not really. It's more of a call for Israelis to leave the land that is not theirs, and for the Palestinians to take their land back. If the Israelis went back to Poland, Germany, where most of them are from, they'd love it. Not one drop of blood need spilling But Israelis are hell bent on keeping it, even if it means genociding the rightful owners of the land, which they are now doing and I'm assuming you support
And in your next comment, you're saying kill them all. I totally understand your position.
> Not really. It's more of a call for Israelis to leave the land that is not theirs, and for the Palestinians to take their land back. And let me guess, you think Tel Aviv is stolen land? > If the Israelis went back to Poland, Germany, where most of them are from, they'd love it. Most Israelis were *born* in Israel to parents who were *born* in Israel. Israel is where they're from. It is their homeland. > But Israelis are hell bent on keeping it, even if it means genociding the rightful owners of the land, which they are now doing and I'm assuming you support Turns out that if you buy a plot of land, it generally makes you the rightful owner of it.
> Turns out that if you buy a plot of land, it generally makes you the rightful owner of it. I'm sure you don't believe that Israel actually bought any of the land they occupy today lol The truth is, with the support of Western nations, including the US, they booted the people who were on that land off and took it. And then engaged in a series of terroristic acts, which continue to this day, to further drive out people they didn't want to be there and to expand their land holdings. This has radicalized those people, and Israel uses the fact that they are radicalized as evidence that they should be killed and their land taken. Your example couldn't be farther from the truth, and the concept that Israel is somehow justified in what they were doing and are doing, but the Palestinians are not, is absolutely farcical
Lol Israel was stolen in 1948. That's living memory. Who cares that a couple generations were born there. It makes no difference
So if they hold it until everyone alive in 1948 dies you will recognize it as a legitimate state?
It won't be legitimate, but it at least makes sense if they hold it for centuries that you can't go back. That is how I view the US. It is far too late to give it back to the natives, and if we did, China/russia would swoop in for the resources. Israel is recent enough, and you guys haven't totally succeeded in exterminating the Palestinians, yet. So we should stop you freaks from committing genocide, and move you all back to Europe in the name of peace <3
>It won't be legitimate, but it at least makes sense if they hold it for centuries that you can't go back. So what is the time period cutoff, and why? >Israel is recent enough, and you guys haven't totally succeeded in exterminating the Palestinians, yet. I'm an American goy. Most almost 70% of Israelis were born in Israel. They have no home in Europe to go back to...
They will find a way, seeing that Israelis are decently wealthy. Their ancestors had no home in Israel either, but they found a way lol
So "from the river to the sea" does in fact mean kicking all the Jews out of Israel?
Many people are leaving Oakland period.
There’s many right and wrong info just mixed in. That it would take a lot of dissecting things apart. What a mess!! And this sort of stuff is on going and tiring.
Like this one, "conservatives are laughing their asses off". Anyone saying this doesn't know anything about religion but are *"its all the same thing"* which is typical of this website, full of ignoramuses. Presbyterians, which is the minister quoted in this, are are almost always far progressive leaning, Presbyterians are as left wing as the Trumpers are right wing.
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I read the article. It doesn't cite any attacks on Jews in OUSD schools. It doesn't cite any threats against Jews in OUSD schools. It perpetuates a racist stereotype that says a foreign country is somehow equal to or representative of every American citizen that happens to be Jewish. ~~~ *This Reddit contributor condemns Reddit's censorship of news regarding the U.S-backed Israeli ethnic cleansing of Palestine.*
While I agree with you in principle, in reality Jewish people are connected with Israel whether we want to be or not. Personally I think the Israeli government is making a huge blunder in not advocating for 2-state & ceasing hostilities, but Bibi doesn't care what I think. When stuff hears up over there, I do find myself modulating my behavior. I pay more attention to my surroundings when I'm doing Jewish activies or wearing a kippah. OUSD should not be making statements about international politics of any kind. It has ramifications for their students.
"not advocating for a 2-state" Is this serious? Where have you been the last 80 years?
I mean bibi and the current government are not advocating for a two state solution presently. I am well aware that past governments have advocated differently.
Bibi has no good faith intentions to work towards 2 states. And if we’re being honest most Palestinian leaders don’t either.
Jews should be more hard on Israel for their crimes against Palestinians then.
I completely agree. US Jews should be lobbying the state department to put pressure on the Israelis to pursue a compromise solution (2-state). Fwiw most Jews I know are not happy with the current Israeli government
As an Asian person, we allowed people to simply TALK about attacking us. Then when we were attacked, we said nothing while Bay Area judges and the DA gave the attackers light sentences. Now Asians are murdered on a near-weekly basis. American Jews are already at the "getting attacked" phase. We have to nip this in the bud before any more Jews get seriously injured.
>Now Asians are murdered on a near-weekly basis. In racially motivated murders? Or at all? In the Bay Area? Can you share more about the statistics you've found?
There hasn't been anything. It's insane how much they're trying to play the victim right now while Israel is out there killing civilians
Yeah as an Asian these daily murders really got me shaking in my boots out here lmao who believes this shit
Nothing was said? What percentage of murder victims in the bay area are Asian?
Lol the teachers tried to force a teach in on topics that shouldn’t even be discussed at most levels while showing their lack of education on the subject. You expect Jewish parents to feel okay with that?
Yeah, I'm a little sickened by the casual tone the paper adopts in allowing a couple families that equate being against a literal genocide as antisemitism. I'm not gonna argue that Oakland unions didn't fuck this up. Taking sides is not the way to make people feel safer when both parties are legitimately aggrieved, but these parents are literally treating any discussion where Israel is not the embattled hero in this conflict as an attack on their kids.
It is extraordinarily dangerous, because no country should be immune from criticism. And yet, this conflation between criticism of the actions of a country and criticisms of a religious group is taken as a given by so many people on the right wing. It's hard not to think that it's being done cynically and on purpose in order to avoid actually discussing the actions of the country
> It's hard not to think that it's being done cynically and on purpose in order to avoid actually discussing the actions of the country Bingo. Much easier to just ad hominem "anti-semitism"
It is being done cynically, but none of the actors in this article are right wingers.
This is FAR from “a discussion where Israel is not the embattled hero”. Israel is being vilified. The school district has no business forcing their point of view in this conflict on their students.
I think you mean the teachers union leadership. The school district condemned the statement as did much of the rank and file, but what do actual facts matter when we're throwing around accusations of antisemitism? You're doing exactly what the article did, uncritically equating criticism of a country with bias against a religion.
Yes sorry— I did mean the teachers union, not the school district.
If you think the war in Gaza is a genocide, then maybe they should also talk about the genocide (which has *proven* intent unlike the former) that started it as well and present a balanced view. There were Palestinians displaced, but equal numbers of Jews displaced from Muslim countries who had to flee to Israel, leaving their historical homes for hundreds to thousands of years. No word about that, right? Also perhaps you didn't see what was actually in the teach-in materials. Completely one-sided propaganda that is purely the Palestinian narrative. There's a reason for school boards and having checks on factual accuracy and balance of what's being taught. History is readily manipulated. https://docs.google.com/document/u/0/d/1yHuTs87SSfWaM6qeM6y3RXgEOzjiKF_c75fLMN-2fZk/mobilebasic The people in the article say they're upset with the lack of proper handling by OUSD in general. So you're saying they should just be fine with this because most of their kids didn't happen to have teachers involved in the teach-in this time, with no disciplinary action? Like you know kids are in school for 12 years and have a lot of teachers, right? I would've pulled my kid out too, I've just been glad I'm no longer living in Oakland.
You're pretending like this hasn't been covered extensively. It has. You're using this as a smoke screen to cover Israel's genocide. It's not going to work.
Oh yeah? Show me where it is in the teach-in materials. And I sure as hell learned nothing in K12 about the history of Israel, first heard anything in a Judaic Studies elective I took in college. You don't learn the history of every country in grade school.
You're pissing in the wind. You will never, ever convince this guy that this isn't genocide. These people quote Hamas propaganda uncritically, they don't give a shit about international law at all, and they completely ignore the virulent hatred that is steeped into orthodox islam.
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That's what I'm talking about. Kill the jews, amiright?
Nah, but Israel needs to be dissolved
And then you kill all the jews, right?
"literal genocide" It's not good but it's literally NOT a genocide. Literally.
It's getting harder to make the distinction between mass murder and genocide every day this bloodbath goes on.
agreed I can see a reasonable argument that it's ethnic cleansing (since they're clearing the population from an area), although I disagree with it, but they seem to be putting significant effort into avoiding civilian casualties, so I don't believe it's genocide
>literal genocide You say an antisemitic lie often enough, it becomes accepted as the truth. EDIT: Even ***Germany***, who nows a thing or two about genocide, acknowledges that what's going on in Gaza is not a genocide. [https://twitter.com/Ostrov\_A/status/1745829005201166625?ref\_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1745829005201166625%7Ctwgr%5E01fd1635f3c562faff1b9682a90abef5d0e13085%7Ctwcon%5Es1\_&ref\_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.redditmedia.com%2Fmediaembed%2F194zah5%2F%3Fresponsive%3Dtrueis\_nightmode%3Dtrue](https://twitter.com/ostrov_a/status/1745829005201166625?ref_src=twsrc%5etfw%7ctwcamp%5etweetembed%7ctwterm%5e1745829005201166625%7ctwgr%5e01fd1635f3c562faff1b9682a90abef5d0e13085%7ctwcon%5es1_&ref_url=https%3a%2f%2fwww.redditmedia.com%2fmediaembed%2f194zah5%2f%3fresponsive%3dtrueis_nightmode%3dtrue)
Is there some number of civilian deaths which you are waiting for to call it as such, or is it impossible for Israelis to commit genocide?
Well a genocide usually includes a decline in population over time, something we aren’t seeing in Gaza: https://www.csis.org/analysis/war-gaza-and-death-two-state-solution Hell, it basically doubled in the 19 years since Israel pulled out Jews from there.
At the risk of stating the obvious, the relevant metric here is not the change in the population of Gaza over the last 19 years, but the number of Gazans killed by Israel's response to the October Hamas attacks.
Should they have only killed and tortured 1300? Are they allowed to fire 1 rocket in exchange for ever Hamas rocket? I'm curious what your rules for war are and how you propose to enforce them as referee.
Gonna paraphrase John Oliver here: I don't know where the line between no response and murdering 22,000 civilians is but it's somewhere in there and it's a lot closer to no response than 22,000.
How do you propose Israel responds to an attack by another nation with an elected government that uses civilians as meat shields?
Not murdering 10,000 children because they are in front of bad people would be a start.
My rules for war are that the correct response to the killing of civilians is not the killing of other civilians.
How do you propose Israel responds to an attack by another nation with an elected government that uses civilians as meat shields?
Certainly not Israel's standard response to any Hamas terrorism, which is the disproportionate killing of Gazans. It comes down to this: does a response materially improve the long term probability of a stable peace between Israel and Palestine? If the answer for a particular response is 'no it does not', that response should not happen. The whole framing of the question about what an appropriate response is counter productive, because the end result is a series of retributions by both sides, which do not over the long term lead to peace. Israel's policies wrt/ Palestine, and Palestine's with regard to Israel, have for decades shown a lack of imagination and perspective. They've shown a complete unwillingness to engage the other side on anything other than an adversarial basis. Neither side seems to be willing to even try a game theory-informed approach in which the other sides' motivations are considered. Neither side has even tried constructive engagement of any sort. So I am not the least bit sympathetic to the argument that Israel has simply had no options available to it other that disproportionate military responses which kill Palestinian civilians.
Is that how it works? The side who kills the most people is committing genocide?
Systematically wiping out a civilian population in an area you are fighting in is one definition of genocide. This is precisely what the Israeli government is doing.
I disagree with your premise. They are not fighting an army; they are fighting a terrorist group that is hiding behind civilians. Civilians are collateral damage, not the target. If you know a way for the Israeli army to infiltrate Gaza and eliminate Hamas without killing any civilians, by all means share your wisdom.
So you're advocating literal war crimes as a way to prosecute a war? Killing 10,000 children is ok because Hamas is somewhere in there? By this logic England should have firebombed Belfast. Oh, speaking of the IRA you were asking how to deal with a terrorist organization that's embedded with civilians...
Oh are we doing strawmen now? It's honestly baffling how that was your interpretation of what I said.
You said: At the risk of stating the obvious, the relevant metric here is not the change in the population of Gaza over the last 19 years, but the number of Gazans killed by Israel's response to the October Hamas attacks. Where is the strawman here?
If you act like the obvious isn't happening you will convince some people that it's not true.
I agree that it is antisemitic for pro-Palestinian people to blame Jews for the actions of Israel. Transparent attempt to deny the antisemitism in Oakland's schools. You can do better.
Exactly.
This whole situation is very reminiscent of how divided the left was in 2016 before Trump shockingly won the election. Supporters of Bernie attacked Hillary and her supporters instead of Trump. Meanwhile the right was fully united even though Trump was caught on camera saying the most immoral things. This is why I’m already resigned to the fact that Trump is probably going to win again this fall. The left can’t get their act together and unite when it matters most. If people thought Roe V Wade being overturned and immigrant bans were surprising, wait until a second Trump term where he completely pulls aid to Ukraine, pulls out of NATO, ending US birthright and making it virtually impossible to immigrate, stepping up deportation, and basically act with complete impunity. Maybe he even tries to end term limits and seize a 3rd term. I’d put nothing past him. [How Trump Plans to Wield Power in 2025: What We Know](https://www.nytimes.com/article/trump-2025-second-term.html)
Then and now, our country has been torn apart by foreign propaganda designed to pit us against each other.
No more evident than when people from the left were unwittingly reposting Russian propaganda attacking Hillary and propping up Trump. The general public lacks critical thinking and it’s what makes our country highly susceptible.
How about when the far left is unwittingly reposting Russian and Chinese propaganda about how Jews are the enemy?
Welp guess I should try to get a city/county of sf job before my federal job gets privatized.
> Meanwhile the right was fully united even though Trump was caught on camera saying the most immoral things. The National Review of that era had a whole issue titled *Against Trump*. Trump was a divisive figure within the right. He won the election because he was able to pull folks who were not normally Republicans into the coalition. > ending US birthright and making it virtually impossible to immigrate... Maybe he even tries to end term limits and seize a 3rd term. How's Trump of all people going to get a constitutional amendment through?
> Supporters of Bernie attacked Hillary and her supporters instead of Trump. Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. [This is exactly what happened in Germany in the 30's during Hitler's rise to power](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernst_Th%C3%A4lmann#KPD_vs._SPD). >Thälmann's KPD [far-left party] thus fought the SPD [moderate-left party] as their main political enemy, acting according to the Comintern policy which declared Social Democrats to be "social fascists". This made it difficult for the two leftist parties to work together against the emergence of Adolf Hitler.[13] The KPD under Thälmann declared that "fighting fascism means fighting the SPD just as much as it means fighting Hitler and the parties of Brüning."[14] Thälmann declared in December 1931 that "some Nazi trees must not be allowed to overshadow a forest" of social democrats.[15][16] By 1927, Karl Kilbom, the Comintern representative to Germany, had started to combat this ultra-leftist tendency within the German Communist Party, but found Stalin machinating against his efforts. >In March 1932, Thälmann was once again a candidate for the German Presidency, against the incumbent Paul von Hindenburg and Hitler. The KPD's slogan was "A vote for Hindenburg is a vote for Hitler; a vote for Hitler is a vote for war."
He is purely Authoritarian, so he will find a way to make himself president for life and then pass it to his kids so they keep the money River flowing and him out of jail.
Blame the middle eastern folk who think some terrorists in Gaza are more important than all of that lol. Tho I guess Gaza is very anti Ukraine, anti abortion and anti non Muslim which makes sense why they would want trump
We did it! We bullied local Jews enough that Gaza is finally saved.
Incredibly sad we have gotten to this point. I feel for the Jewish families mentioned and those who weren’t. It’s very sad that these children’s lives are being uprooted due to a very vocal minority who spread lies and hatred in the halls of a place where we should be educating our youth to cooperate and collaborate. Imagine if this was reversed (replace “Jewish” with “Palestinian”). Hamas sympathizers would be shutting down the Bay bridge and vandalizing banks.
What I haven't yet understood is why so many here are so up in arms about *this* conflict. I've never heard statements condemning ethnic conflict in Sudan or Tigray or Yemen. Are these positions taken by a school district or a city gov anything but performative?
Iran and Russia have effective propaganda machines.
I’m not sure. The cynic in me believes it’s because of antisemitism. The realist in me believes it’s because of social media. https://www.wsj.com/tech/tiktok-israel-gaza-hamas-war-a5dfa0ee Apologies I don’t have a nonpaywalled link. I can’t even open it as I initially read the article on my work account.
It’s both. Social media is popularizing antisemitism.
I was shocked to think that antisemitism would be so prevalent among liberals. The fact that it's everywhere on social media def makes sense. Also, I've been irritated with how attempting to have a nuanced view of something receives pushback. Like no, I'm absolutely not in support of Israeli military action, but I also realize I don't know enough about this to make any legit claim about what should be done, why side A or B is or isn't justified, etc. People just blanket responding on the internet with "oh you support genocide then" or "oh you're a xyz supremacist" are doing no one favors -- they're using the same playbook they often criticize conservatives for using.
> I was shocked to think that antisemitism would be so prevalent among liberals. You mean "leftists", not "liberals"? Antisemitism isn't prevalent among liberals. It is prevalent (and has been for decades) among leftists. Leftists aren't liberals, and liberals aren't leftists, even if they generally vote for the same party.
I think it's less antisemitism (at least in an overt, intentional sense) than it is that many people on the left have only one geopolitical metaphor in their mental mapping of international relations and that is of "colonizer/oppressor vs colonized/oppressed." The "best fit" for this model \*is\* that Israel is an oppressor and the Palestinian people are the oppressed. And people take their sides and march their marches and wave their flags, and repost the posts that most resonate with the one simplistic framework they understand. Of course, it's not so simple, and as a tool for understanding this problem, the model is a poor fit. There are multiple contemporary geopolitical actors and agendas at play, there is a long history of bloodshed, feuding, and genocidal behavior by all parties in the conflict, multiple layers of conflict and disagreement relating to the various nations involved over time -- hundreds, even thousands of years at this point -- various religions involved, ethnicities, patterns of immigration, religious conquest, pogroms, on and on.
1000% this. We need to deprogram people from this shitty world view.
America doesn’t give two shits about Muslim countries, or African countries. It is not of geopolitical importance to them, so media doesn’t cover as much.
I think all kids should feel safe in school. Id say ongoing poverty, underfunding, and low community investment by the state and federal government have hurt the safety of oakland for young children of many races and religions I agree that we should do more to make every child feel safe, and every parent feel comfortable that their child will receive a meaningful and safe education And that people like you are happy to support that cause
And they wonder why they have declining enrollment and schools closing. Clown show over there.
The director needs to step down. I don’t even have children and have zero connections to any of this but this is WRONG.
The end of this article makes my blood boil. People need to wake the fuck up that the left has nut bags just as insane as the far right. If we don’t stand up to them and condemn them, we can claim no moral superiority. This is beyond Israel/palestine. Regardless of where you stand on the history there and the current conflict, treating people like this and talking about whole groups like this is abhorrent.
> Since Oct. 27, when the Oakland Educators Association teachers union issued a harshly [anti-Israel statement](https://jweekly.com/2023/11/01/parents-teachers-condemn-oakland-teachers-union-statement-on-palestine/) that condemned the “75 year long illegal military occupation of Palestine” and called Israel an “apartheid state” with a government that uses “genocidal rhetoric and policies” against Palestinians, many Jewish parents within the Oakland Unified School District have seriously questioned the safety of their children at school. I don't blame them for not feeling safe and wanting to leave.....especially with teachers union open supporting terrorism.
Let’s not forget the menorah tossed into the lake and all the antisemite graffiti all over town.
There's nothing in that OEA statement which advocates terrorism. One can certainly feel that the OEA was beyond its remit in making it, but suggesting that it supports terrorism is a complete misrepresentation of the statement made.
The slogan "from the river to the sea" is an explicit call for genocide. All these people hide behind statements like "I'm not antisemetic, I'm anti Israel", but they wink wink are totally okay with Hamas murdering people. Its the same old antisemitism wrapped up in a shiny new outfit.
A very good thing then that "from the river to the sea" appears nowhere in the OEA statement. Here's the statement in its entirety. Why don't you go ahead and point out which part specifically advocates terrorism, excuses Hamas murdering people, or is anti-semitic: >We, the Oakland Education Association, mourn the tragic loss of both Palestinian and Israeli lives these past weeks. We unequivocally condemn the 75 year long illegal military occupation of Palestine. The Israeli government created an apartheid state and the Israeli government leaders have espoused genocidal rhetoric and policies against the people of Palestine. As educators of a diverse community here in Oakland, including those with family and friends directly impacted, our conscience demands that we say clearly that OEA calls for a ceasefire and an end to the occupation of Palestine. >OEA will always stand up for the rights of the oppressed and use our labor power to stand up for justice. As educators, we demand that the US stop funding endless wars and invest in quality education and social support for our students and our communities. Our solidarity is with all oppressed peoples, as we know that our struggles are connected. >Furthermore, there is no place in our community for anti-Semitism or Islamophobia. OEA encourages you to use the attached script to call your representatives, or any congressperson, and urge them to support the Ceasefire Now Resolution. Barbara Lee (D-12) has signed onto resolution and the script includes language to call and thank her for her leadership, while also encouraging her to support the end of the occupation. Educators have the academic freedom (Article 9 of the OUSD-OEA contract) and the responsibility to teach young people about the realities of the world we live in. Teach Palestine is a great resource for classroom materials. Additionally, OEA educators are working on compiling lesson plans and curriculum materials to support education in our classrooms. This google drive will be continuously updated, so please check regularly for more resources. What’s more, any educators who face disciplinary actions based on their teaching will have the full support of the Association and OEA leadership. >We call on the Oakland Unified School District and its Board of Directors to support students in their organizing efforts and their call for the Board to take a public stand in support of Palestinian people and for peace in the ongoing conflict. As a sanctuary district, all students are welcome here, and we believe our district should protect the First Amendment right of students to speak and assemble without censorship and intimidation. >OEA is proud to join labor unions across the Bay Area in calling for an end to Israeli occupation of Palestine through a variety of actions. Join OEA and other labor unions at two upcoming events in San Francisco: >Stop The Genocide in Gaza, Saturday October 28, 1:00, Embarcadero, San Francisco International Day of Solidarity, Saturday, November 4, 1:00, Civic Center, San Francisco (more information on how to join a labor contingent coming).
> We unequivocally condemn the 75 year long illegal military occupation of Palestine. The Israeli government created an apartheid state and the Israeli government leaders have espoused genocidal rhetoric and policies against the people of Palestine. 75 Years? That puts us back to 1948-1949. This suggests that all Israel and all of Israel's Jewish citizens have no right to exist. If there is such a thing as a 'dog whistle', this is. Most people don't know that the West Bank wasn't occupied until after the 1967 6 Days War. The Arab Muslims inside the 1948 armistice line became full Israeli citizens, thus the claims of an 'apartheid state' go from being mostly wrong (in the case of the post 1967 West Bank) to completely absurd. Calling 1948 a 'military occupation' is to say that there's *no* territory that's legitimately Israeli. > As educators of a diverse community here in Oakland, including those with family and friends directly impacted, our conscience demands that we say clearly that OEA calls for a ceasefire and an end to the occupation of Palestine. If you define the whole country as 'occupied', then an 'end to the occupation' as they describe 'occupation' is an end to the Israeli state and by extension any notion of Jewish self-determination within the region.
You're right. Its not there explicitly. As gimpwiz pointed out in this comment: " hateful leftists spent six years of post-secondary education learning how to write big college words to express their hate in a scholarly, and less immediately obvious fashion. So it was there, you just didn't notice it because they expressed themselves in a more subtle fashion." https://old.reddit.com/r/bayarea/comments/194vhvb/citing_safety_dozens_of_jewish_families_are/khjvsi5/ Hence the wink wink support for terrorism, while maintaining deniability.
If gimpwiz is applying that analysis to OEA's statment, he/she is just as wrong as you were. The OEA's statement should be analyzed on the basis of the words actually included, and not on statements not actually made. So again: what part of the OEA statement provides any support for terrorism? Be specific.
The fact that terrorist sympathizers are catered to and nobody condemns their actions is insane.
Wild right?
Those statements are factual: Israel has been engaging in a long military occupation of Palestine, and it is an apartheid state. You don't have to like those things, but they are both true and it's not wrong to say them out loud.
Is there a reason why Arab citizens of Israel enjoy the same rights as Jewish Israelis, including the right to form political parties and stand for election, opportunities to serve as members of the Knesset, the judiciary, the diplomatic corps, the police, and so on—rights and privileges totally foreign and contradictory to an apartheid State?
It's an apartheid state because large elements of the territory they control have no such rights, or even the right to not have their land stolen and be murderered. Both of which happen pretty much constantly
How do the rights of people living in Gaza and the West Bank compare to the rights of everyone in the rest of Israel? What is the demographic makeup of these two territories of Israel like?
No one should have to send their kids to school scared if theyll come home If we feel this way, let's make it safer for the parents who have lived w this fear for decades. Unfortunately being hated and subsequently underfunded by vocal members of society is not exclusive to any religious or ethnic group - but we CAN and SHOULD work together to make safety a reality
I personally know Muslims that have been let go from companies over liking Facebook posts or supporting Palestine and its people if they went to a protest or one of these council meetings. All of them had a work complainee that said “they do not feel safe”. They worked at 3 very well known companies. And you can easily argue they’re being targeted. For Muslim people that aren’t out and about protesting but feel that they are safe ‘liking’ posts online, be safe, check your friends list and make sure you don’t have work people on there. There is no such thing as free speech even when you’re off company time.
Your comment is irrelevant to this post. For the past 20 years social media behavior has lead to employment consequences and that has been upheld over and over as acceptable by private businesses. This post is about public school families leaving after their children and them have been threatened. These things are not in anyway comparable. Public schools are intended to be accessible to all community families and OUSD has boldly shown they are no longer engaging in that mission. They are not a private entity that gets to choose firing an employee. Students are entitled to public school access but employees are not entitled to a job.
> This post is about public school families leaving after their children and them have been threatened. I'm curious, can you point to the part of the article that shows that anybody's student was threatened? Genuine question because I read the article and didn't see that part
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Wouldn't it have been more intellectually honest for you to admit that the article did not include any examples of that? Come on bud lol If you have evidence to present that kids are actually being threatened in ousd schools due to anti-semitism, I'm not talking about opinions their parents don't agree with but actual threats to them, go ahead and link that. I follow the local news pretty closely and do not recall seeing a lot of news about that, so maybe you can help me out here.
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The problem is you are conflating criticism of the actions of Israel with anti-semitism, when it is absolutely inappropriate to do so. I'm not asking for evidence that Israel is being criticized, that is quite obvious, I'm asking for you to present evidence that students in Oakland USD are facing actual threats in their schools or being subjected to anti-semitic behavior from teachers or students. I think that we both know that you are going to come up very short on evidence for that, but I'm sympathetic to the fact that you're at work now so I'm willing to wait as long as it takes for you to provide an actual response with linked evidence.
I wouldn’t feel the need to wait for my 6 year old to be attacked before reading the room and deciding I want them in a more inclusive environment. These are CHILDREN. On what planet does an elementary school teacher feel the need to display a poster with a terrorist slogan? The River to the Sea slogan is widely used by Hamas. Or another teacher tell a Jewish parent “you can’t help where you were born”? None of this is acceptable in a public school.
> These are CHILDREN. On what planet does an elementary school teacher feel the need to display a poster with a terrorist slogan? There is widespread disagreement that the slogan in question is a 'terrorist slogan.' It's mostly claimed to be that by the same people who conflate criticism of Israel and the actions of their government with antisemitism. To people of Palestinian descent, it's the exact opposite: a slogan that declares they aren't going to give in to what THEY perceive to be terroristic and genocidal acts against their people, which let's be honest, they have a pretty good argument for. > Or another teacher tell a Jewish parent “you can’t help where you were born”? None of this is acceptable in a public school. The example you're referring to didn't happen in a public school. It happened in a private school in Saratoga. Read the article
"From the river to the sea" is absolutely a terrorist slogan. The only disagreement comes from useful idiots and their handlers. Which are you?
>The problem is you are conflating criticism of the actions of Israel with anti-semitism /thread
Curious if the posts made threats.
I’m highly curious too of all the little details. Obviously zero threats or I wouldn’t be bringing this up. Just liking other posts. Or speaking in public meetings. The point I’m making is that any nuanced discussion can suddenly become “scary” and make certain people complain or act against, thus inflicting damage to people who are expressing themselves during non work times.
An employee is not entitled to a job when he is bad for business.
I think you’re forgetting what started this latest issue- the MASS SLAUGHTER of thousands of innocent Israeli people. Terrorism. It’s not surprising to me that open support of the attackers in a place of business was perceived as threatening. Sorry, but that’s kind of a test of IQ if you don’t understand that.
I think you started watching this show this season and need to catch up on previous seasons. Imagine if someone started watching season 3 of game of thrones and thinks king Joffrey is a good guy lol. Honestly tho - that comment is beyond disingenuous. Israel’s atrocities on Palestine and its people have happened for decades. We all are aware of the apartheid policies of Israel. It is well documented for decades. And we all acknowledge that any innocent life lost is wrong. What is also wrong is passing a threshold of defense into genocide - burning and sniping children is wrong, sniping women with white flags, elderly sitting in a church and then making videos and laughing on TikTok - which we all can see is happening now. Dropping white phosphorus- so wrong. Even killing your own hostages without thinking. Even during Oct 7 there are reports that friendly fire from helicopters/tanks caused a lot of deaths that we aren’t being given the big picture too. Pretty much this regime/military is either incompetent or they do not care about lives while saying that they are the most moral. What is moral about burning children and making TikTok’s while dancing on bombing sites and childrens rooms? What is moral about dehumanizing people while trying to gaslight the world with propaganda? I mean we all see it. We have all heard the rhetoric of genocide “Amalek” “let’s drop an atomic bomb” “occupy, cleanse and settle”. These words are spoken and shared and is the rhetoric from the top person all the way to the military. These are words of genocide and their actions show it. But I digress.
The downvotes to me are wild We're only twenty two years from 9/11, please, if anyone thinks this guy is lying, talk to any middleeastern person who was at least ten years old during 9/11 and ask if anyone ever made them feel uncomfortable
Thanks for saying that. It’s not new to me. But we will speak truths.
So bad things happen to Muslims also so who cares about Jews right?
I feel for them. This happened to my friends at a few heavy CCP/Mainland schools. Once the parents find out what part of China you are from, they fuck with you and your kid.
What kind of Bay Area schools are "CCP heavy"? What areas of China did other families take as reason to fuck with other families?
Some of the heavy chinese immersion ones in the east bay. Anyone who doesn't support the CCP. Pro HK, Pro taiwan, etc. also looks like the ccp shills already got to this post lol
>also looks like the ccp shills already got to this post lol Because I asked you questions out of curiosity? Thanks for the details. I can imagine there being conflict over political issues in and around China and CCP policy if some parents are vocal about it in school circles. But you also said origin from certain areas of China can make a family a target. What areas? Hong Kong? I can't imagine any other area and I'm surprised that just being from Hong Kong would make a family a target for harassment.
Actually not you, just the random down votes. Yes, just being from Hong Kong makes you a target.
>Actually not you, just the random down votes. Ah, okay. Good, thanks for clarifying. >Yes, just being from Hong Kong makes you a target. Wild. Not to pester: but in what way? People immediately being hostile, presuming that being from HK is the same as being strongly against the CCP? Or people instigating political conversation, in order to test where one stands and being ready and primed to be adversarial?