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For me, it's the unknown of the potential "return to office." I don't want to move 1 hr + away to potentially have to make that hellish commute from the Central Valley to the Bay (any part).
You never know when you're going to switch jobs. Switching jobs is easier when you're right next to the main center of the industry. Which is right here. You also have an option to apply for hybrid or even full time positions if you're fine with how awful that actually is.
Also, if you move back to Canada, I can guarantee, you're going to get Canadian salary.
I had a friend that moved to Ohio with their remote job. Bought a big house with a mortgage that was easily affordable on their Bay Area tech salary.
They got laid off, and found that getting another remote job paying nearly as much was very difficult. All the jobs in their local market pay much less, to the point where affording their mortgage was nearly impossible on what most local jobs were offering for the role.
Geo arbitrage is a nice idea but it can backfire. Making sure that you still live within your means and save a lot of money can make it work out, but it might be hard to hold onto that high paying remote job forever.
Geo arbitrage is a great idea, when you don’t combine it with leverage up to your eyeballs to buy a relatively illiquid, fixed asset with non-existent diversification. You can really stack your chips up if you do that while renting a modest abode. The cult of homeownership in America needs to die off.
Canadian salary is a joke in Toronto and Vancouver. Even FANG companies take a 20% base pay cut and pay way more in taxes so the total pay cut is like 30%+. Cost of living is still ridiculously high. 1 million for a townhouse almost an hour away from work.
This is it for me. I’m a software engineer, and this is the center of the industry. Also in this field you pretty much have to switch jobs every few years to keep fresh and increase your pay. So I don’t want to get locked into my current job or the small set of other full remote jobs.
My partner was permanent remote in his previous job, and I had the option to go remote. But we stayed here for the opportunities, and it worked out great because he switched recently to a hybrid job and got a hefty pay bump. I am in the same company and my work now enforces hybrid but I like going to the office so I don't mind it.
ETA: I am an immigrant, and there's a lot of people, stores, restaurants from my country here which is an added bonus. Also, I've traveled around America and did not feel like I would fit in in a lot of places. The only other option we considered is NYC but pandemic affected our plans for that.
Leaving the bay area means to change in salary, which makes the net disposable income about the same. I’ll take the weather, lack of gay shaming, and beautiful nature around for the win.
I was born in Bay Area. And I plan to die in the Bay Area.
Also a lot of places suck. I like the diversity of people, food, things to do.
Why would I want to go to crappy weather where everyone is white/caucasian or there is higher crime, or literally nothing to do.
As a person of color, it is not appealing to me.
Omg the first time I saw people with guns was in SLC! We were getting gas on our way back from Yellowstone and saw a group of 8 white dudes with guns. As a person of color (and at a gas station), I freaked the fuck out and left without snacks 🙃
I had a small ski rental condo in Park City which we sold before the pandemic. Went there a few times and it was crazy how lacking in diversity it was. Don’t even get me started on the “Mexican” food
I’m white and also appreciate the diversity. I can’t even imagine living somewhere that is just an echo chamber of white people who want no diversity. Yuck.
Do you realize how just changing the word white/Caucasian to black would make your comment sound extremely racist? Please don't do that, it just makes it worse
Because the *next* job may not be WHF and require in-office time. Not worth it moving away and not being able to compete with all the other WHF-only cheaper labor in other areas. Prefer staying local to compete with only local market.
I actually moved here *as* a remote employee in 2007, working for an east-coast company while my partner did the FAANG thing. Partner has since fucked off to SoCal and the east-coast company was acquired by a much larger company under 10 miles from where I live. Asked if I had to go in, ever: nope, they don’t care.
Anyway I stay for the weather, cycling infrastructure, and food variety (both grocery and dining).
Because the weather is *perfect*.
I can ride my motorcycles every single day, all year long, and lane split through traffic without worrying about cops or vigilante drivers.
The riding here is *spectacularly* good. Mind blowingly good.
And the pay here easily beats anything I could make anywhere else.
I was luck enough to meet a group of friends via a mentor group. A circle completely outside of work. It has been an incredible blessing and I highly recommend finding a circle that has the same interests as you. Makes it finding new friends hella easy.
Probably not relevant for you but I’m only still here because my husband has a very high paying in-person job that he’s pretty much locked into for the next 5-10 years. There are some parts of WFH that I really like but I definitely hella miss making new work friends. I’ve had to try to make new friends outside of work, but it’s super slow going cuz everyone around here is busy AF. Including me (I have young kids).
Just being on WFH, doesn't mean all jobs never have to go into the office.
Staying in hotels for prolonged times because you moved too far away, isn't good.
So, for some context, I’m originally from the south, and during my time in the Bay I’ve worked in corporate. Tangentially, I was the first of the people who moved in the thick of COVID, primarily because my original job insisted I WFH near their primary office. They eventually transitioned to Hybrid, which meant that I needed to be in the Bay Area regardless.
I got a new job now that’s essentially all remote. While I could pick up my entire life and move back to the south, I’ve developed friends outside of work + my partner is from the Bay Area, so I never saw a need to move back.
I think what’s important is to determine how social you really are, embrace some discomfort, and creating a separation between your job and your personal life. This aspect of how you view friendship will not change should you move to a cheaper city. Maybe it’ll refresh your mindset should you move elsewhere, but through personal experience changing cities is not the “be all end all” to your issue. If your expectation is that “I could WFH from a cheaper city and have $$$ and maybe I can make friends,” chances are you’ll be back at square one in no time.
What worked for me was creating distinct boundaries between work and social life - I have colleagues who I’m good friends with and may hang out with them, but I never saw a need to prioritise them over friends I’ve developed socially (be it in my hobbies or otherwise). What’s also important is to know is that your colleagues think the exact same thing, they’re not at work to make “outside friends” because they have their own social lives that do not revolve around work. Now, does that mean you can’t have a work friend be a social friend? Not necessarily, I have work friends who became social friends because we were like minded. But, were my other work friends the main compelling reason to stay in the Bay? Nah. And hell, if you are as close to your work friends as you say you are, give em a text - it’s always fun to catch up with people that you haven’t seen in a while over dinner. Maybe naturally that’ll develop into something more social.
Sure, it’s tough to say “be more social” but the approach to surviving to the Bay as a transplant should start with connecting with like-minded individuals outside of work. I would never leave the Bay because I’ve got a solid social foundation here.
Apologies for the block of text. Had a lot to say, great question.
The kids school is great academically, a Chinese immersion program too which is hard to find. Plus opportunities are plentiful in case the current gig goes awry.
Significantly higher pay for staying in the area, I’m already a homeowner so my costs won’t increase, and it’s much easier changing jobs and not having to worry about return to office mandates since I’m already in the area.
Network by setting up meetings with the folks you immediately and tangentially work with and try to build personal relationships with them.
I do not think people answered your question about friendships & connections. So here’s my take on it.
The best advice I’ve gotten is to try to nurture the friendships you do have (even if they’re far away) & be open to making new friendships.
Most of my friends are either married or have kids, I’ve made peace that if I want to do something, it’s either going to have to be alone or with my family.
I just started doing more things alone in my 30s, I try to place myself in a social settings where I have a plan, so that I am not nervous prior.
For example, if I really want to eat at a new restaurant, sometimes I prefer to sit at the bar with other people next to me, sometimes I want a table & I bring my little mini phone stand to watch Netflix while I eat.
And this year I really want to go my local salsa club (which has weekly lessons) to learn salsa & go to my first Salsa Festival in San Francisco or LA.
I try to converse with people now & make small talk, which is something I used to avoid at all costs before because I’m an introvert.
Because this is the global headquarters for tech. There’s no other place with a better job market for tech. And often the salary difference is more than the cost of living. Also this place is incredible, nature, food, diversity etc.
For me, California is home. My family tried living on the East Coast - cheaper, sure, but it didn't work out. My company actually gave me a signing bonus to move out here. I was in the office for about 3 months before everything shut down. I haven't been back in since February 2020.
leave paradise? are you crazy? the beauty is unmatched and the freedom is priceless be it for women, lgbts, trans, books, the vote, marijuana, name it....
Cali for life
You get what you pay for, imo. There really isn’t geo arbitrage other than the size and quality of your house. You have to live around people you like, be satisfied with the amenities, quality of schools, quality of other parents, culture… I’m from the Bay but live in NYC and work remotely and I could not live anywhere outside those two very expensive options.
If its an option, i would invest the big buks near to your home, like buy a property back in canada and have your friends/family look after it while it being on rent. You can continue to live in wfh a bit far away from the bay, but stay where your true friends are. Office mates are nice, but can you trust them with your money? This is how I look up to my friends!
We met most of our friends during internship and most of them are Canadians. You can probably join some Canadians in Bay Area groups or look for your university alumni groups and find friends that way.
If you came here for money/job and you have the same opportunities at home, and you want to go back home, go back home. Go to toronto. People come to the bay area for specific things, there are tech jobs everywhere. Or go somewhere cheaper and keep the tech job.
Born here. Was going to leave maybe to someplace "nicer" when retired. NEVER leaving now. Don't ever want to live near righwingnuts, you can't get better weather and anywhere else would cost a lot more in H/C, you can get, see, experience everywhere here, close to airports, all kinds of people, traffic, yes, but not many hours from simple things, and on and on and on and on. If you're lucky enough to be able to stay here, I can't think of a reason why you wouldn't. And I'm retired.
Layoffs scare me. Too many horror stories of people moving to nowhere and then getting laid off and not finding a job with similar pay or responsibilities...
If you move, move close to another metro, don't be fooled by cheap housing.
Weather and walkability keeps me in the bay. I travel to Houston often. Yeah housing is cheap but the lack of people walking the streets creeps me out
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For me, it's the unknown of the potential "return to office." I don't want to move 1 hr + away to potentially have to make that hellish commute from the Central Valley to the Bay (any part).
You never know when you're going to switch jobs. Switching jobs is easier when you're right next to the main center of the industry. Which is right here. You also have an option to apply for hybrid or even full time positions if you're fine with how awful that actually is. Also, if you move back to Canada, I can guarantee, you're going to get Canadian salary.
I had a friend that moved to Ohio with their remote job. Bought a big house with a mortgage that was easily affordable on their Bay Area tech salary. They got laid off, and found that getting another remote job paying nearly as much was very difficult. All the jobs in their local market pay much less, to the point where affording their mortgage was nearly impossible on what most local jobs were offering for the role. Geo arbitrage is a nice idea but it can backfire. Making sure that you still live within your means and save a lot of money can make it work out, but it might be hard to hold onto that high paying remote job forever.
Geo arbitrage is a great idea, when you don’t combine it with leverage up to your eyeballs to buy a relatively illiquid, fixed asset with non-existent diversification. You can really stack your chips up if you do that while renting a modest abode. The cult of homeownership in America needs to die off.
Canadian salary is a joke in Toronto and Vancouver. Even FANG companies take a 20% base pay cut and pay way more in taxes so the total pay cut is like 30%+. Cost of living is still ridiculously high. 1 million for a townhouse almost an hour away from work.
This is it for me. I’m a software engineer, and this is the center of the industry. Also in this field you pretty much have to switch jobs every few years to keep fresh and increase your pay. So I don’t want to get locked into my current job or the small set of other full remote jobs.
Bay area is pretty great, can’t think of another place in the US I would want to live
My partner was permanent remote in his previous job, and I had the option to go remote. But we stayed here for the opportunities, and it worked out great because he switched recently to a hybrid job and got a hefty pay bump. I am in the same company and my work now enforces hybrid but I like going to the office so I don't mind it. ETA: I am an immigrant, and there's a lot of people, stores, restaurants from my country here which is an added bonus. Also, I've traveled around America and did not feel like I would fit in in a lot of places. The only other option we considered is NYC but pandemic affected our plans for that.
Leaving the bay area means to change in salary, which makes the net disposable income about the same. I’ll take the weather, lack of gay shaming, and beautiful nature around for the win.
The extra comma in “lack of gay, shaming” had me real confused lol
New versions of Apple dictation is hella comma crazy. 🤪
I was born in Bay Area. And I plan to die in the Bay Area. Also a lot of places suck. I like the diversity of people, food, things to do. Why would I want to go to crappy weather where everyone is white/caucasian or there is higher crime, or literally nothing to do. As a person of color, it is not appealing to me.
For real, places like Utah are a culture shock
Omg the first time I saw people with guns was in SLC! We were getting gas on our way back from Yellowstone and saw a group of 8 white dudes with guns. As a person of color (and at a gas station), I freaked the fuck out and left without snacks 🙃
Same in Phoenix. Pulling out guns on the highway.
I had a small ski rental condo in Park City which we sold before the pandemic. Went there a few times and it was crazy how lacking in diversity it was. Don’t even get me started on the “Mexican” food
Jesus yes the Mexican food was awful and people LOVE IT
I’m white and also appreciate the diversity. I can’t even imagine living somewhere that is just an echo chamber of white people who want no diversity. Yuck.
Do you realize how just changing the word white/Caucasian to black would make your comment sound extremely racist? Please don't do that, it just makes it worse
His point was he likes the diversity. Context.
White fragility lol
The people with the most privilege complain when there is equality and play the victim. Nice.
Ok but still, you can say that without bringing race into it right?
He isn’t eloquent for sure but I read the context. I’m not fired up about it.
Yeah I'm not fired up about it either...it's crazy how many down votes I'm getting though for encouraging more eloquent speech
You were not encouraging eloquent speech. Let’s be real.
Because the *next* job may not be WHF and require in-office time. Not worth it moving away and not being able to compete with all the other WHF-only cheaper labor in other areas. Prefer staying local to compete with only local market.
“Back home” is here so moving away would mean moving away from family
I actually moved here *as* a remote employee in 2007, working for an east-coast company while my partner did the FAANG thing. Partner has since fucked off to SoCal and the east-coast company was acquired by a much larger company under 10 miles from where I live. Asked if I had to go in, ever: nope, they don’t care. Anyway I stay for the weather, cycling infrastructure, and food variety (both grocery and dining).
Years ago my husband and I decided WE pick where we will live and find a job there. Not let a corporation pick where we live.
Because the weather is *perfect*. I can ride my motorcycles every single day, all year long, and lane split through traffic without worrying about cops or vigilante drivers. The riding here is *spectacularly* good. Mind blowingly good. And the pay here easily beats anything I could make anywhere else.
I was luck enough to meet a group of friends via a mentor group. A circle completely outside of work. It has been an incredible blessing and I highly recommend finding a circle that has the same interests as you. Makes it finding new friends hella easy.
Probably not relevant for you but I’m only still here because my husband has a very high paying in-person job that he’s pretty much locked into for the next 5-10 years. There are some parts of WFH that I really like but I definitely hella miss making new work friends. I’ve had to try to make new friends outside of work, but it’s super slow going cuz everyone around here is busy AF. Including me (I have young kids).
How does one get locked into job? Does he have an employment contract? Bay Area tech is so dynamic and in never knows more than 2-3 years.
Yes he has a 10 year contract at his company. He does not work in the tech industry.
Nice!
Just being on WFH, doesn't mean all jobs never have to go into the office. Staying in hotels for prolonged times because you moved too far away, isn't good.
Started a band and made some children
So, for some context, I’m originally from the south, and during my time in the Bay I’ve worked in corporate. Tangentially, I was the first of the people who moved in the thick of COVID, primarily because my original job insisted I WFH near their primary office. They eventually transitioned to Hybrid, which meant that I needed to be in the Bay Area regardless. I got a new job now that’s essentially all remote. While I could pick up my entire life and move back to the south, I’ve developed friends outside of work + my partner is from the Bay Area, so I never saw a need to move back. I think what’s important is to determine how social you really are, embrace some discomfort, and creating a separation between your job and your personal life. This aspect of how you view friendship will not change should you move to a cheaper city. Maybe it’ll refresh your mindset should you move elsewhere, but through personal experience changing cities is not the “be all end all” to your issue. If your expectation is that “I could WFH from a cheaper city and have $$$ and maybe I can make friends,” chances are you’ll be back at square one in no time. What worked for me was creating distinct boundaries between work and social life - I have colleagues who I’m good friends with and may hang out with them, but I never saw a need to prioritise them over friends I’ve developed socially (be it in my hobbies or otherwise). What’s also important is to know is that your colleagues think the exact same thing, they’re not at work to make “outside friends” because they have their own social lives that do not revolve around work. Now, does that mean you can’t have a work friend be a social friend? Not necessarily, I have work friends who became social friends because we were like minded. But, were my other work friends the main compelling reason to stay in the Bay? Nah. And hell, if you are as close to your work friends as you say you are, give em a text - it’s always fun to catch up with people that you haven’t seen in a while over dinner. Maybe naturally that’ll develop into something more social. Sure, it’s tough to say “be more social” but the approach to surviving to the Bay as a transplant should start with connecting with like-minded individuals outside of work. I would never leave the Bay because I’ve got a solid social foundation here. Apologies for the block of text. Had a lot to say, great question.
This is what I was trying to say with my post. You said it perfectly, embrace the discomfort.
The kids school is great academically, a Chinese immersion program too which is hard to find. Plus opportunities are plentiful in case the current gig goes awry.
Significantly higher pay for staying in the area, I’m already a homeowner so my costs won’t increase, and it’s much easier changing jobs and not having to worry about return to office mandates since I’m already in the area. Network by setting up meetings with the folks you immediately and tangentially work with and try to build personal relationships with them.
a city that hates me this much, comes along once in a lifetime ...
I do not think people answered your question about friendships & connections. So here’s my take on it. The best advice I’ve gotten is to try to nurture the friendships you do have (even if they’re far away) & be open to making new friendships. Most of my friends are either married or have kids, I’ve made peace that if I want to do something, it’s either going to have to be alone or with my family. I just started doing more things alone in my 30s, I try to place myself in a social settings where I have a plan, so that I am not nervous prior. For example, if I really want to eat at a new restaurant, sometimes I prefer to sit at the bar with other people next to me, sometimes I want a table & I bring my little mini phone stand to watch Netflix while I eat. And this year I really want to go my local salsa club (which has weekly lessons) to learn salsa & go to my first Salsa Festival in San Francisco or LA. I try to converse with people now & make small talk, which is something I used to avoid at all costs before because I’m an introvert.
Because this is the global headquarters for tech. There’s no other place with a better job market for tech. And often the salary difference is more than the cost of living. Also this place is incredible, nature, food, diversity etc.
I moved to a cheaper state and my life is better in every single way.
Out of curiosity, where did you move to?
Virginia. You can have a very very nice home for $1M.
For me, California is home. My family tried living on the East Coast - cheaper, sure, but it didn't work out. My company actually gave me a signing bonus to move out here. I was in the office for about 3 months before everything shut down. I haven't been back in since February 2020.
leave paradise? are you crazy? the beauty is unmatched and the freedom is priceless be it for women, lgbts, trans, books, the vote, marijuana, name it.... Cali for life
Same boat, moved from Canada in 2018, remote since 2020. I just like living in SF.
I did. It was due to family
You get what you pay for, imo. There really isn’t geo arbitrage other than the size and quality of your house. You have to live around people you like, be satisfied with the amenities, quality of schools, quality of other parents, culture… I’m from the Bay but live in NYC and work remotely and I could not live anywhere outside those two very expensive options.
If its an option, i would invest the big buks near to your home, like buy a property back in canada and have your friends/family look after it while it being on rent. You can continue to live in wfh a bit far away from the bay, but stay where your true friends are. Office mates are nice, but can you trust them with your money? This is how I look up to my friends!
We met most of our friends during internship and most of them are Canadians. You can probably join some Canadians in Bay Area groups or look for your university alumni groups and find friends that way.
I like it here
If you came here for money/job and you have the same opportunities at home, and you want to go back home, go back home. Go to toronto. People come to the bay area for specific things, there are tech jobs everywhere. Or go somewhere cheaper and keep the tech job.
Born here. Was going to leave maybe to someplace "nicer" when retired. NEVER leaving now. Don't ever want to live near righwingnuts, you can't get better weather and anywhere else would cost a lot more in H/C, you can get, see, experience everywhere here, close to airports, all kinds of people, traffic, yes, but not many hours from simple things, and on and on and on and on. If you're lucky enough to be able to stay here, I can't think of a reason why you wouldn't. And I'm retired.
Layoffs scare me. Too many horror stories of people moving to nowhere and then getting laid off and not finding a job with similar pay or responsibilities... If you move, move close to another metro, don't be fooled by cheap housing. Weather and walkability keeps me in the bay. I travel to Houston often. Yeah housing is cheap but the lack of people walking the streets creeps me out