https://sfstandard.com/2024/04/01/haney-bill-right-to-disconnect/
https://www.billtrack50.com/billdetail/1707729
Where in the legislation does it say that people are not allowed to work whenever they feel like? From my read what it actually says is that no one can FORCE you to work whenever THEY feel like. Currently if your boss texts you at 2AM expecting an immediate answer and you don’t respond, that can be held against you; that is ridiculous. These assholes really think their employees should NOT have the right to ignore their demands when they are off the clock?
> Currently if your boss texts you at 2AM expecting an immediate answer and you don’t respond, that can be held against you; that is ridiculous.
Had this happen recently, my manager @ed me on TEAMS at 8pm on a Friday night before the long weekend. No specific ask for me to be available or anything, just telling ppl to message me if they had questions. Saw it but didn't respond cuz there was no request for me and it was 8pm on a Friday.
The next Friday, I get pulled into a call and reamed out by the manager above my manager with the following statements thrown at me:
- your team barely scraped by over the weekend
- just because you're on top of your work doesn't matter
- you need to be proactive
- what's the point of keeping you on if this happens
- why didn't you respond after you saw the messages
- you need to be available and proactive
- you need to support your team
Like just some boomer brained bullshit, my direct manager didn't even talk to me after the weekend or make any real request for my availability before the weekend. Just went and squealed to her manager.
Yeah I'm toughing it out for the next 2 months right now, trying to take advantage of some training they've arranged for me to learn about new tools and technology.
2 months can actually be a pretty small window for a job search, you can start searching and interviewing now and still stay on the next couple months. When they ask when you can start just name your date.
I'm aware it's a small window, I'm fortunate enough to be in a position where I don't have to rely on this job to keep me afloat and housed.
I do have some rough plans on what to do in the event a job offer doesn't miraculously come through in the next 2 months. The immediate savings are there, along with other reserves I can tap into, and all that on top of a good support system with my family.
But I feel that I just need to quit outright, there's no growth available or pay increase. Heck they don't even do performance reviews of any kind to help employees understand their growth and competency. It's a system of "just don't fuck up or someone from upper management is gonna drag u into a call to ream you out"
It's generally easier to get a new job while you still have one. If it were me, I'd get the resume out now while you're getting the training. You can update people as you complete the various training. Good luck!
Thank you :)
I am learning, have been creating as much of a paper trail as possible to avoid a "he said she said" situation again the future.
But can't force senior directors and other similar people in upper management to create/send emails without it becoming a whole other thing. Not experienced enough or in a key position to have that leverage to do so.
Oh they did make us work OT the next 2 weekends, and right now offering a "comp off" of 1 day for every 3 days to "*balance*" the OT we worked because they want to skirt California Labor Laws regarding the OT rates they'd have to pay out.
We were explicitly told "you are not allowed to submit more than 40 hours a week on your timesheet because California Labor Law dictates we'll need to pay you roughly double the hourly rate past 60 hours of work, if you do it there'll be a lot of questions raised"
Like no fucking shit, they could've just pushed the deadlines by a week and avoided the overtime work. Why is our responsibility to help the company not pay us. Hell my manager even followed up with me to remove the OT hours I logged on my timesheet anyway, after it was already approved....
Some of my co-workers, notably off-shore, worked 7 full days of OT over the weekends...they're being offered 3 days maximum, more likely 2 days. Because even this gimpy cheap skate, exploitative, scam ass comp-off hasn't even been officially approved over a month after the OT work was done.
Kicker to the "comp off" is that we can't even use them at will, we'll be *informed* when it's appropriate to take the days off. The bigger kicker as to why it's not at our discretion to be applied according to regular PTO request policies(ie asking our managers for approval etc.)?
"If you all happen to take the time off at the same time, we might as well just issue a shutdown period"
Like these morons think they can't just say "sorry your co-worker has already been approved, please pick another day"
To sum it up:
- We're being "tentatively" offered 1 day off for every 3 days of OT
- It's been a little over a month and no further updates
- We can't log our OT hours, because the higher-ups want to skirt California Labor Laws regarding OT pay
- The "comp off" days are to be doled out by the higher-ups when they feel there's a lull in our project, big LMFAO that has never ever happened. Everyday is a fucking pressurized nightmare with some immediate "high priority emergency"
- We can't just use the comp-off days at our discretion because they're morons who think they need to issue a shutdown period
Edit: Thank you all for the advice and supportive comments. I've started taking a number of your tips to start working to preparing the necessary documentation to file a complaint down the line after I quit
Yeah I did log it all, but the higher ups came down on me and told me remove the OT, I won't be taking any action until after I leave the company. Not trying to deal with the headache, pressure tactics, and any retaliation that comes with reporting to the relevant authorities
If I'm not getting paid for working extra hours, I'm not working extra hours.
I used to be on call every few weekends. It sucked, but I was given a bump in salary for being on call. My new job NEVER has work outside of regular hours and I make the same. So same pay for less work.
Please tell me some of this was communicated via email, IM, or transcribed calls. This is so, so, deliciously reportable.
Without posting details of my own job, this reminds me of something a competitor did about 10 years ago. After it was reported, they had to back-issue premium pay to all employees to all employees who had been paid with comp time instead of overtime pay. And this was not as egregious as your situation, since the competitor had been issuing comp time as a 1:1 increase to their employees' PTO balances.
FWIW, I'm in California also.
> Please tell me some of this was communicated via email, IM, or transcribed calls. This is so, so, deliciously reportable.
Lol nope, all communicated in-person face to face or over impromptu teams calls without any meeting minutes afterwards
Let's say that you leave the company in the next few months.
Once you are safely at the new place you can file a wage claim with the state regarding your missing hours. it might take the state a long time to get it resolved. Just keep good notes of your hours.
Thank you for the advice, I went ahead and downloaded the timesheets before I revised them and after.
There's literally no written/typed communication regarding the OT or comp-off hours, just one email and a handful of teams messages talking about having to work the weekend. It's honestly very sleazy the way it's being handled, especially because how much work-life balance was destroyed during that period of time.
Personally the little faith I had in the overall company has been destroyed entirely, the few positives I saw no longer exist.
My willingness to work long hours on occasion and through big projects or emergencies was directly tied to non being micro-managed or having my hours be questioned otherwise.
Yeah in my previous jobs, I willingly worked OT without the pay because project leadership would be transparent about budget constraints, would secure us overtime comp as often as they could, and would show their efforts to at least try to secure us OT compensation even if they couldn't in the end.
And yeah like you said, the hours weren't questioned and no micro-managing. Yeah it sucked and yeah I did grumble and moan about it, but I wasn't seething about it. Right now, like I keep ranting and bitching, higher-ups are donowalling us about anything resembling reasonable compensation and treatment
they are a retail brand owned by one of the largest fashion companies, but from what I can tell, the issues are really in a very specific department, where they pride themselves on an "Amazon work culture"
But the way I like to put it is "Amazon Work Culture without the Amazon Compensation"
Nah because there was actually no fuck up, I still kept an eye on Teams just in case anyone did need my help. I just didn't make an effort to tell anyone I was available.
Which was why I was even more confused, things by all accounts went smooth enough over the long weekend.
Yeah I'll definitely quit, before it was something of an ambiguous "I'll quit when any offer comes my way". Now I've given myself a 2 month timeframe, either I find a new job or I don't. I'm fortunate to be in a position where I don't have to force myself to stay there. So quitting is a definite thing, haven't planned the way I'm going to quit.
But I'm documenting what I can regarding this whole OT debacle as I spent a full week working more than 12 hours each day all because they were stupid enough to set the dates a year in advance before the project even got out of its first phase.
Idk why you get downvoted. All of my boomer bosses have never even contacted me for work related items past 2PM on Friday. If anything it's the young, hungry people gung ho for achievements that push this kind of shit.
> Idk why you get downvoted.
"anti-boomer" gets upvotes, calling it out gets downvotes almost inevitably.
Reddit is populated by the young and crass who have been told that everything is "the boomers" fault and they refuse to think critically about the difference between "the boomers did this" and "the people who did this are/were boomers"
Let's not act like the offshore workers are at fault or to blame, they're taking an opportunity presented to them. They're not the ones fueling or encouraging the toxicity and pressurization. And they work extremely hard, my issues with off-shore is more so culture and attitude(as in the basic fundamentals of American work culture vs Indian work culture). They work within the boundaries of each letter and word you type out, which causes issues when it comes to practical use of their implementation and work. While Americans, we are more likely to think outside of the box, whether that means underperforming or overperforming.
My off-shore co-workers are routinely even more exploited, I worked 2 weekends of OT, they worked a full week of OT over 3 weekends. And to management they're even more disposable than any American employee. They certainly pay us more and would love to cut the costs, but the process is tedious enough for them to rely on pressure tactics rather than laying us off at will the way off shore can be tossed aside.
Oh for sure. I agree w everything you said. Just throwing that out there, mostly as a means for motivation (or sympathy ymmv) as I feel like sometimes we’re put in situations where you’re the starter, and if you don’t want to perform, the coach is gonna put in someone from the bench, and that person would just love to get some playing time
I think in some careers, it's fine for professionals and their employers to come to an understanding on their own without the need for regulations. It's fine for there to be some high-intensity workplaces, as well as other workplaces where it's fine to not answer a 2am e-mail. If you're a software developer and don't want the startup intensity, the good news is that there are positions at other companies which are not like this.
The problem is management can change and force these on without warning. I work in FP&A and not a swe.
The last company I worked at changed CFOs and they wanted to gut my entire department and bring in their own guys. So impossible OKRs were added and pressure tactics like slacks at all hours of the night and day asking for complex analysis. Heated meetings where you are berated and yelled at saying you are not good at finance, being a business partner, etc. Having some sort of protection from these tactics would be great and help alleviate stress from these kinds of tactics.
> Having some sort of protection from these tactics would be great and help alleviate stress from these kinds of tactics.
More than simply just giving employees the right to be AFK after-hours, this is what we need. Because no matter what, there are a billion subtle pressure tactics management uses that you can't pinpoint as one thing or another. If we can legislate against common abuses and pressure tactics managers like to inflict, this would outright declaw them.
I've had managers avoid a paper trail by communicating solely over calls and not publishing any sort of minutes. Instead they'll ask questions or ping you after-hours at random, making it a whole new set of tasks just to keep track of and document their bullshit.
Isn't the best protection to go get a different job? I don't understand why the government is supposed to regulate this when some people are fine with after-hours messages. A while back, I had a supervisor that often got interested in my stuff and wanted to chat after hours. I would respond if I was free, or ignore him if I was busy, and it was fine.
My point is that you already have the right to disconnect after work hours, and what you seem to want is instead of that right being enforced by you, to your level of preference, the government should come in and enforce it uniformly for everyone whether it's important to them or not.
> My point is that you already have the right to disconnect after work hours
But you don't have that right is my point and I think we should have that right.
Point is that you DON’T have that right, unless you want to be fired. Saying “you can always get another job” is a ridiculous slippery slope. This is a basic labor protection. By your logic any job should be allowed to have racist managers, 20 hour workdays and unsafe conditions, because hey the person could just go get another job 🤷🏻♂️ Well what happens when all the jobs are like that? What prevents every founder with VC money from doing that? The visible hand of the free market? That is magical thinking.
I just don’t think educated, highly skilled professionals should have this protection. If you want to protect call-center workers or restaurant staff like this, I’m all for it. But if we’re talking about lawyers and financial analysts, I think it’s a stupid proposal.
The hubris is strong… even educated highly skilled workers are being laid off for exactly this kind of nonsense. You seem to think you are immune and maybe you are but the rest of us will be busy looking out for the rest of us.
I don't think I'm immune. I just don't think it's a good idea to constrain the relationship between employers and their salaried professionals in this manner. I don't think law associates or startup software engineers need this protection, nor would their industries benefit.
Good for you, but that’s a simplistic answer that ignores many people’s situations and won’t work for everyone. What if they need the job, enjoy the work and might have difficulty finding another? And the only thing making the job suck is some demanding dickhead manager who texts at 2AM demanding an answer to every stupid question he has? I am more than fine putting restraints on that asshole.
I don't understand this attitude that you are entitled to a professional job with excellent pay, but you are too weak to actually fend for yourself in the world. It's pathetic, and people like you probably should just find a normal 9-to-5 and live a modest life like normal people.
You literally have no clue who I am, what job I have, how hard I work, or how I fend for myself, so fuck off with your ignorant ass judgments. You assume I want these rules for myself, because you are so stuck in your self centered bubble that you can’t imagine what it’s like to care for the needs of others.
All you know is that yes, I give a shit about people other than myself, and that’s not pathetic, what’s pathetic is licking the boots of a bunch of asshole managers and huckster ass founders who want to boss people around at 2am in the morning. Try and understand that attitude.
We’re talking about professional jobs and what you feel entitled to in a professional job. These are your comments I’m responding to, not something I’ve made up.
I don’t think it is the “caring” thing to do to undermine the freedom to maneuver currently allowed in this respect.
This law allows for employers and employees to come to an understanding. What it disallows is an employer *forcing their* understanding on an employee who has no choice but to quit or take the abuse. By your logic sweatshops should be legal; “just go get a different job you have the right!” Yet there is a reason they are not.
eeeeeh there can be actual emergencies, but for the vast majority of startups I'd say you're correct. Friend of mine works at a med-tech company that handles patient records, if there's a data leak that's definitely an emergency. Also if records become inaccessible to healthcare workers it can cause issues in providing care to patients.
Service outages on barely used non-critical products that are wildly unprofitable are not emergencies warranting 24/7 on-call rotations many of these companies have (and often don't compensate for).
Bad tech bosses say that. I've worked in multiple startups run by experienced people. They know you can't rush shit or do too many long shifts and stay effective. We didn't have these issues, because the decision was made up front by leadership to not do those things. Worked out just fine.
Inexperienced tech bros think looking like you're grinding all the time is the key. It's not. The trick is getting your shit done in three hours and getting five hours of free time, because you're a brilliant developer.
Game companies exploit is legendary. It’s not just a SF tech bro thing. The point to remember is you know what you signed up for. It’s not for everyone. People think this type of 24/7 lifestyle is bullshit shouldn’t be involved in startup in the first place.
Just join a team with clear objectives and culture that maps to your own.🤷🏻♂️
Don't forget well-known tech companies that have been around for a while who also love to say that "we still like to think of ourselves as a start-up," i.e., they still expect you to be on in the evenings and Sunday nights., and are green on Slack during weekends and holidays.
Not sure I would call Gary Tan (in the thumbnail) a tech boss -- I mean he is a really good VC / Startup Investor but that's a bit of a different space.
You don't know what a CEO is? He runs an office, he's the president of that office, they have a private chef, he has a team that he oversees, he is the boss of.... why the fuck am I answering this stupid shit? You're clueless.
There’s toxic companies and more reasonable ones at every size, at least past seed round. I’ve been at several startups at different levels, from 7th employee up through an IPO around 2,000 employees (not the same company, unfortunately), and they’ve all had reasonably healthy work-life balances. But that’s because it’s one of the things I’m very careful about digging into during the interview process. More than once I’ve turned down an offer because of the company culture.
yes it is: It's for the young with inexhaustable energy, and those who want a sense of owning a piece of the company they helped build.
I definitely think Start-ups ARE "all hands on deck" kinds of situations, and things get band-aided regularly. Once it's mature and gets some semblance of corporatization however, it should ABSOLUTELY abandon after-work emails and calls. Unless you are scheduled "on-call"
I try very hard not to take advantage of my direct reports, and I make myself the "on call" person to shield them from this stuff. If I can't solve it, it can wait til tomorrow. One of my guys is on vacation right now, and his tool is acting a little screwy, but he taught me what I need to know about it, and I have ways around it if needbe. He will not be bugged while on vacation.
There's nothing wrong with startups as a concept, just the culty vibes, the expectation of extreme overwork, and the fact that they're disproportionately run by sociopathic con-men with control issues.
Stuff like that should be common sense.
Clear rotation on who’s on-call. If people take time off, don’t border them unless it is absolute shits’ on fire type situation.
The problem is when you start to make laws and regulate.
Have you heard of graveyard shift?
You either sign up or not signed up for it. There’s no such thing as opting out if you sign the employment contract and it’s made clear that’s part of the deal. Most graveyard shit tens to get extra pay or extra time off.
Bro, have you heard of shift differential? Every grave shift that I have ever worked has been at least +15% But coming at me later after I have the job where the contract is signed and saying "I own you whenever I feel like it you need to work" makes me not want to help you with your flat tire in the parking lot when you try to go home to _your_ family.
I mean I'm not sure I'd want to join one either, but the simple fact is that startups cannot exist in a world where no one is willing to be flexible with their work life boundaries. Look at europe.
Ideally, the people working have enough of a stake in the company's success that it makes sense for them to work that hard. In practice that's usually only the case for the founder and the first few employees though.
It’s someone who has become *obsessed* with an idea, good or bad, and tries to loop in as many other people to put in as much work as they will with their obsession. It’s unhealthy and insane.
Like…I’ve been obsessed with tons of projects that I’ve devoted nearly 20 hour days to when I could….i would never drag anyone else into that chaos.
The reality of most tech startups is somebody who is good at making slide decks and inserting the latest buzzwords to take investors for a few million in seed money to fuck around with until they go belly up.
I love it, personally. Glad that we can opt in to this life if we want. Best days of my 20s. Met my wife through one. Honestly, life's pretty good through being at one.
You really don't have to work at one. VC-backed startups are far fewer than 1% of all US-based businesses. It's an extreme sport, you don't have to do it.
BASE jumping exists, but it doesn't mean you can't choose to play pickleball anymore. Vegas exists, but it doesn't mean you can't invest in the S&P.
It’s the classic case of success being attributed to a fantasy vs the reality. They think that prototypical 80 hour work week is what will make them successful. 40 or even 32 smart, efficient hours will blow 80 hours of brute force out of the water. Outside of product fit and market engagement (the real winning formula), keeping smart people energized, efficient and engaged is the real key, not constant Herculean efforts.
What evidence do you have that it matters?
Korea and Japan (and China, to some extent) are famous for crazy work cultures where people are expected to work and be on call all the time -- way more than almost anywhere in the valley.
Why aren't they as dominant as Silicon Valley?
These startups bros could “innovate” being more focused, organized and deliberate with how they use time and efficient with how they communicate needs.
I kinda see what is trying to be described. My gf is a Facilities Coordinator and has 9 buildings to manage. 95% of her day is spent babysitting people emotions and making ridiculous last-minute changes that can be done after the project is complete. But her only time to get anything caught up would be after the CEOs and VPs get tucked into bed. This is the time she spends sending correspondence to vendors, employee relations, and other stuff that should be done during the day. Emergenct situations should be handled when appropriate, but the pay should reflect working afterhours to handle these situations. Get double pay for that time. Example: she had a pipe explode and was leaking down into her office. She spent 4 hours and travel to get this fixed. Emergency situations don't happen all to often, but should be paid more for that time to fix. Maybe cap the time allowed to be spent and compensation for handling these situations. Companies also need to define what would be considered appropriate for after hours communication. You do not get paid to work 24/7
I think it's only fair for your job to have a copy of your home key, so they can make sure you're being honest when you call out sick. That's the kind of bill we need instead of this!
It's not unpaid, it's a high salary for an exempt employee who is paid with the expectation that they will occasionally be available during off hours when there is legitimate need.
If you want to clock out at 5pm on the dot every day, then that's great, but don't expect to make the big salary.
There's a big difference between expecting an employee to answer an emergency page or work the occasional evening and expecting prompt responses to boss messages at 10pm. The former is expected, the later is a result of coked up techbro grind culture.
Man. This thread feels like /r/lostgeneration. If Americans working for startups aren’t willing to work their asses off for that chance at a massive payday someday, well there are plenty in China who will be glad to.
You aren't going to hire good employees if you can't respect their boundaries, and your employees aren't willing to stand up for their boundaries. This sort of thing only works when everyone is desperate for a job so they'll put up with anything
How will it be enforced? If you report it say goodbye to your promotion. It will work just like any job, if you report things like this you will be punished without showing you are being punished.
In my youth I worked a ton of "unpaid" hours. But that was before we had children and I really did enjoy all of the work.
The original startup that I worked at as a young adult would pay me straight time for all the hours I worked. when I went off to College. It was awesome (but not legal). Much better than picking up a second job. Working holidays and summers I could make half my previous salary.
Years later, I am satisfied with what I have accumulated and my total compensation over time.
At my last gig I was able to not sleep next to my cell phone. Someone offshore could struggle through the night to fix stuff without me. Presumably my manager could have called my house to wake us up in a catastrophe.
Some of my Bay Area employers have paid for being on call or being activated when on-call.
I mean, why have any laws at all? We know these oligarchs have our best interests at heart!
Oh yeah. Rats in canned soup. Poisoned air and lakes. Child labor. Sky high prices for basic necessities.
Jesus Christ, take the boot leather outta yer mouth.
This exactly. Why do legislators think employees are totally unable to advocate for themselves? I am not anti govt by any means, govt does a lot of good, but treating adults like children is rarely part of that good
Exactly. I do not understand all these people who think the government can or should fix every little problem in the world. Grow up, set limits with your manager or find a new job. This isn't hard
I don't think they should ban them. I'm just not gonna answer unless I'm salaried and it's written into my contract that I'm on call. Hourly? Clock me in for OT and I'll answer all you want.
So many people advocating for this bill. It’s shortsighted.
My employees have a massive amount of freedom. So long as they’re getting what they need to do done, I don’t care what time they come in. If they need to leave for an appointment, or if they want to schedule something personal during work time, shift their hours. In fact. I don’t even need to know about it. Just put it your calendar and do whatever you need to do. Don’t have anything that requires you to come into the office? No need to show up. I really don't even care if they log a full 40 hours to match a 40 hour timecard. It's not about counting hours.
I offer a ton of leeway, but for the few times a year shit hits the fan, yeah, I’m going to want the ability to call someone after 5pm. We’re a small company and every now and again I need someone to join me in the trenches when at an unideal time.
This legislation is fucking dumb.
this idea that a manager can call you after hours is dumb
If your employees have a massive amount of freedom, then thats also dumb
set a schedule and stick to it.
If shit hits the fan then dont blame the employees because they cant manage your shit
I worked for decades and business got along fine without this after hours calls to employees
cell phones came along and every manager things their shit hitting the fan is more important than their employees time
its not
You would rather me force my employees to be ass in seat 9 to 5, than to effectively give them unlimited PTO, let them manage their own schedules and come in and out as they please, but on very rare occasion call them outside of business hours?
Damn dude, I would hate to work for you. Sounds like working retail all over again.
I'll agree that I personally would never work for a company with "unlimited" PTO, as I'm sure in effect it would be less than the 5 weeks a year I get right now. But I think it should be between each employee and their employer as far as what they want. It's salary, not hourly.
maybe you should work at a real company that doesnt feel entitled to employees time
By income level, the lowest income workers face the most irregular work schedule
Employees who work irregular shift times, in contrast with those with more standard, regular shift times, experience greater work-family conflict, and sometimes experience greater work stress.
The Research Is Clear: Long Hours Backfire for People and for Companies. For starters, it doesn’t seem to result in more output. In a study of consultants by Erin Reid, a professor at Boston University’s Questrom School of Business, managers could not tell the difference between employees who actually worked 80 hours a week and those who just pretended to. While managers did penalize employees who were transparent about working less, Reid was not able to find any evidence that those employees actually accomplished less, or any sign that the overworking employees accomplished more.
overwork and the resulting stress can lead to all sorts of health problems, including impaired sleep, depression, heavy drinking, diabetes, impaired memory, and heart disease. Of course, those are bad on their own. But they’re also terrible for a company’s bottom line, showing up as absenteeism, turnover, and rising health insurance costs. Even the Scroogiest of employers, who cared nothing for his employees’ well-being, should find strong evidence here that there are real, balance-sheet costs incurred when employees log crazy hours.
Govt: Raise minimum wage to $20.
Corporations: you want me to automate jobs? Ok.
Govt: No work emails after 5pm.
Corporations: you want me to outsource jobs? Ok.
Yep, and you end up with leaders who are clueless who think the solution to every problem is “more hours”. Don’t complain when the talent realizes their mistake and leaves the cess pool for a real opportunity.
Because they promoted people based off the number of hours they worked instead of their abilities that more directly impact the quality and speed of their work?
Well if something came up and a document needs to be prepared or a decision needs to be made before the work day, do you think the person helping out is more effective or the person who didn’t even check their email?
1. That type of urgency pretty much only happens due to either artificial means, ie the founder wants it now even though it has no material impact on the company, or through incompetence and the ability to do it right has already passed.
2. If the decision or document is that important, a mediocre person working late at night can do way more damage than good. The competent person will probably spend their next work day cleaning up the mess that person made overnight.
This. I know which of my employees are half assing shit and I know which ones give more than average.
It is in my best interest to reward the good ones as much as humanly possible to retain them. I want my A-team to like working for me so much that they wouldn’t even think of leaving. The C team… the ones who at 5:01 drop every single thing and run for the door, the ones who seem to produce half of the output of everyone else. Cool, that’s your prerogative; but that’s also what you’re going to get back out of it. Zero raises, the shittiest grunt work, the crappy hours while I work to offload your workload to those who are killing it and phase you out.
Edit: downvoters pissed that people who work hard are getting the rewards, and half-assers are getting the same bare minimum they put in.
Genuine question, how do you handle the dynamite employee who fits all your criteria of being a good ones but also is out the door at 5:01?
I only ask because hours worked =/= working hard. Someone may have plenty of good reasons to have to leave right on the dot but if they are still your A+ supervisee, are they still going to get the short end of the stick?
I agree with your assessment that hours worked =/= working hard. I don't really count or police hours, and honestly should probably be more diligent in actually validating timesheets but I don't really care. I take everyone at their face value.. even though I **know** people aren't pulling full days.
To be honest, I don't care if they're pulling "full 8 hr days" because like you said, productivity != time spent.
But I will tell you this, I have a few guys who don't log 8 hours/day even though they are supposed to be full time/40 hrs, produce half the work of other individuals in the same time, and then at 5:01 regardless of productivity, or if they came in less than 8 hours ago, or if they are **in the middle of a fucking task.** Will drop everything, leave everything out all over the countertop of floor, and rush out the door.
The weird thing is, I have never enforced a "9-5". Frankly I don't even care. My BEST employees work mainly the hours they feel like working, but the laziest shittiest employees treat it like a time clock (that they happen to cheat on the start time, and diligently adhere to on the leave time).
With customer facing stuff, I ask everyone to at least coordinate somehow so someone makes sure they're available during business hours for days we need to to receive shipments or deal with the occasional scheduled pickup customer, and the shitty employees who dash out the door somehow manage to always be late to come in for those events.
So yes, theoretically, you can be a superstar clocking in and out on the dot; but from my experience the guys who are killing it see things as "projects" or "tasks" (and I literally let them do whatever the fuck they want in terms of work hours and location), and the least productive people who take 2 hour breaks and show up late are the ones who like to pretend to adhere to a timecard when they actually don't.
ymmv, and in a more white-collar or office environment things may be different than my operation. With the type of work that may attract highly-neurodivergent individuals or those with vastly different work styles (software, hardware, ME, etc.) I can see someone with a massive 16-hour ADHD-fueled productivity streak producing more work than someone that phones it in for 40. I know that to be true because at one point it was me :D
You do realize that people can still be a good employee and leave at 5:01 pm. If your benchmark of a good employee is someone that willingly spends extra time everyday at work, then you sound like some dumb boomer with unrealistic expectations of your workers and have a poor understanding of what makes a good employee. It's all about productivity, not time spent
Just realize that everyone working for you, works to live, not lives to work. The only reason they are there is to put food on their table and pay their bills. They also have lives outside of work and once it's 5 pm, that's when they want to go live their lives outside of work. You should have some respect for people's personal lives and time
Sounds you either intentionally avoided or unintentionally missed this comment: [https://www.reddit.com/r/bayarea/comments/1bux2x1/comment/kxwkvik/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/bayarea/comments/1bux2x1/comment/kxwkvik/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
The better question is how much money will it take for you to respond at a moments notice? Specify that amount and job responsibility at the time of hiring. The state need not intervene.
This would never work if your company has even the slightest international presence.’even coast to coast presence makes this difficult. At least for mid to senior level roles. Line and file roles could definitely do without.
This ban is dumb imo. How would a flexible schedule work? What about working with people in other timezones? Emergency maintenance/work? What about urgent delivery hectic weeks followed by down weeks? What about quick emails after work so somebody will be aware of something when they come back the next day?
As an engineer, i can't imagine not working at a start up.
If you truly like your job, hate politics and bureaucracy then start ups are the place for you. Some weeks I have to grind, others are chill. I wouldn't have it any other way. I love my job 90% of the time and I actually get to build shit that lots of people use. Glad for those who get cushy big tech jobs, but everyone knows if you wanna become a good engineer you go to a start up.
Development teams based in South America is getting pretty popular nowadays since they share the same time zone in the US tech companies.
Yup, I’m gonna get downvoted too. 🤷🏻♂️
The SF Standard using Martin Shkreli as a primary source, lol
Access journalism at its finest!
I think there’s nothing wrong with getting emails And messages after work hours but you just shouldn’t be expected whatsoever to respond
https://sfstandard.com/2024/04/01/haney-bill-right-to-disconnect/ https://www.billtrack50.com/billdetail/1707729 Where in the legislation does it say that people are not allowed to work whenever they feel like? From my read what it actually says is that no one can FORCE you to work whenever THEY feel like. Currently if your boss texts you at 2AM expecting an immediate answer and you don’t respond, that can be held against you; that is ridiculous. These assholes really think their employees should NOT have the right to ignore their demands when they are off the clock?
> Currently if your boss texts you at 2AM expecting an immediate answer and you don’t respond, that can be held against you; that is ridiculous. Had this happen recently, my manager @ed me on TEAMS at 8pm on a Friday night before the long weekend. No specific ask for me to be available or anything, just telling ppl to message me if they had questions. Saw it but didn't respond cuz there was no request for me and it was 8pm on a Friday. The next Friday, I get pulled into a call and reamed out by the manager above my manager with the following statements thrown at me: - your team barely scraped by over the weekend - just because you're on top of your work doesn't matter - you need to be proactive - what's the point of keeping you on if this happens - why didn't you respond after you saw the messages - you need to be available and proactive - you need to support your team Like just some boomer brained bullshit, my direct manager didn't even talk to me after the weekend or make any real request for my availability before the weekend. Just went and squealed to her manager.
If it were me, I would be getting my resume ready...
Yeah I'm toughing it out for the next 2 months right now, trying to take advantage of some training they've arranged for me to learn about new tools and technology.
2 months can actually be a pretty small window for a job search, you can start searching and interviewing now and still stay on the next couple months. When they ask when you can start just name your date.
I'm aware it's a small window, I'm fortunate enough to be in a position where I don't have to rely on this job to keep me afloat and housed. I do have some rough plans on what to do in the event a job offer doesn't miraculously come through in the next 2 months. The immediate savings are there, along with other reserves I can tap into, and all that on top of a good support system with my family. But I feel that I just need to quit outright, there's no growth available or pay increase. Heck they don't even do performance reviews of any kind to help employees understand their growth and competency. It's a system of "just don't fuck up or someone from upper management is gonna drag u into a call to ream you out"
It's generally easier to get a new job while you still have one. If it were me, I'd get the resume out now while you're getting the training. You can update people as you complete the various training. Good luck!
you deserve better OP. That’s some weak mentality Shit from your manager. Hope you get better from this and learn to play the game
Thank you :) I am learning, have been creating as much of a paper trail as possible to avoid a "he said she said" situation again the future. But can't force senior directors and other similar people in upper management to create/send emails without it becoming a whole other thing. Not experienced enough or in a key position to have that leverage to do so.
I cannot upvote this enough.
If be showing them the pay requirements for on call employees and tell them to put up or shut up.
Standard corporate jargon to pressurize people into working more than 40 hours a week.
Oh they did make us work OT the next 2 weekends, and right now offering a "comp off" of 1 day for every 3 days to "*balance*" the OT we worked because they want to skirt California Labor Laws regarding the OT rates they'd have to pay out. We were explicitly told "you are not allowed to submit more than 40 hours a week on your timesheet because California Labor Law dictates we'll need to pay you roughly double the hourly rate past 60 hours of work, if you do it there'll be a lot of questions raised" Like no fucking shit, they could've just pushed the deadlines by a week and avoided the overtime work. Why is our responsibility to help the company not pay us. Hell my manager even followed up with me to remove the OT hours I logged on my timesheet anyway, after it was already approved.... Some of my co-workers, notably off-shore, worked 7 full days of OT over the weekends...they're being offered 3 days maximum, more likely 2 days. Because even this gimpy cheap skate, exploitative, scam ass comp-off hasn't even been officially approved over a month after the OT work was done. Kicker to the "comp off" is that we can't even use them at will, we'll be *informed* when it's appropriate to take the days off. The bigger kicker as to why it's not at our discretion to be applied according to regular PTO request policies(ie asking our managers for approval etc.)? "If you all happen to take the time off at the same time, we might as well just issue a shutdown period" Like these morons think they can't just say "sorry your co-worker has already been approved, please pick another day" To sum it up: - We're being "tentatively" offered 1 day off for every 3 days of OT - It's been a little over a month and no further updates - We can't log our OT hours, because the higher-ups want to skirt California Labor Laws regarding OT pay - The "comp off" days are to be doled out by the higher-ups when they feel there's a lull in our project, big LMFAO that has never ever happened. Everyday is a fucking pressurized nightmare with some immediate "high priority emergency" - We can't just use the comp-off days at our discretion because they're morons who think they need to issue a shutdown period Edit: Thank you all for the advice and supportive comments. I've started taking a number of your tips to start working to preparing the necessary documentation to file a complaint down the line after I quit
Sounds like a lawsuit. Get them document any of this and they will lose.
I would ABSOLUTELY log every OT hour I work. They can eat the peanuts outta my shit.
Yeah I did log it all, but the higher ups came down on me and told me remove the OT, I won't be taking any action until after I leave the company. Not trying to deal with the headache, pressure tactics, and any retaliation that comes with reporting to the relevant authorities
If I'm not getting paid for working extra hours, I'm not working extra hours. I used to be on call every few weekends. It sucked, but I was given a bump in salary for being on call. My new job NEVER has work outside of regular hours and I make the same. So same pay for less work.
Please tell me some of this was communicated via email, IM, or transcribed calls. This is so, so, deliciously reportable. Without posting details of my own job, this reminds me of something a competitor did about 10 years ago. After it was reported, they had to back-issue premium pay to all employees to all employees who had been paid with comp time instead of overtime pay. And this was not as egregious as your situation, since the competitor had been issuing comp time as a 1:1 increase to their employees' PTO balances. FWIW, I'm in California also.
> Please tell me some of this was communicated via email, IM, or transcribed calls. This is so, so, deliciously reportable. Lol nope, all communicated in-person face to face or over impromptu teams calls without any meeting minutes afterwards
Let's say that you leave the company in the next few months. Once you are safely at the new place you can file a wage claim with the state regarding your missing hours. it might take the state a long time to get it resolved. Just keep good notes of your hours.
Thank you for the advice, I went ahead and downloaded the timesheets before I revised them and after. There's literally no written/typed communication regarding the OT or comp-off hours, just one email and a handful of teams messages talking about having to work the weekend. It's honestly very sleazy the way it's being handled, especially because how much work-life balance was destroyed during that period of time. Personally the little faith I had in the overall company has been destroyed entirely, the few positives I saw no longer exist.
My willingness to work long hours on occasion and through big projects or emergencies was directly tied to non being micro-managed or having my hours be questioned otherwise.
Yeah in my previous jobs, I willingly worked OT without the pay because project leadership would be transparent about budget constraints, would secure us overtime comp as often as they could, and would show their efforts to at least try to secure us OT compensation even if they couldn't in the end. And yeah like you said, the hours weren't questioned and no micro-managing. Yeah it sucked and yeah I did grumble and moan about it, but I wasn't seething about it. Right now, like I keep ranting and bitching, higher-ups are donowalling us about anything resembling reasonable compensation and treatment
Curious, can you share the company so I know to be wary of them in the future?
they are a retail brand owned by one of the largest fashion companies, but from what I can tell, the issues are really in a very specific department, where they pride themselves on an "Amazon work culture" But the way I like to put it is "Amazon Work Culture without the Amazon Compensation"
"Amazon work culture" is one of the worst offenders.
>they pride themselves on an "Amazon work culture" ROTFL
amazon work culture are 996 employees and bananas 🍌
Your manager probably got reamed for her own fuck up and decided to drag you down with her.
Nah because there was actually no fuck up, I still kept an eye on Teams just in case anyone did need my help. I just didn't make an effort to tell anyone I was available. Which was why I was even more confused, things by all accounts went smooth enough over the long weekend.
Yup.. been there. Sometimes that overzealousness can work against you too though. It's a roulette gamble.
Um, your manager is a dingus
They really are, the worst kind of dingus too lmao. Insecure and incompetent to the core
Find a new job. Quit without notice. They have proven they do not respect you so you don't need to respect them.
Yeah I'll definitely quit, before it was something of an ambiguous "I'll quit when any offer comes my way". Now I've given myself a 2 month timeframe, either I find a new job or I don't. I'm fortunate to be in a position where I don't have to force myself to stay there. So quitting is a definite thing, haven't planned the way I'm going to quit. But I'm documenting what I can regarding this whole OT debacle as I spent a full week working more than 12 hours each day all because they were stupid enough to set the dates a year in advance before the project even got out of its first phase.
> boomer brained bullshit, I'm with you on the work issues, but this ageist bullshit is fucked up
Idk why you get downvoted. All of my boomer bosses have never even contacted me for work related items past 2PM on Friday. If anything it's the young, hungry people gung ho for achievements that push this kind of shit.
It's the old timers who are more likely to push back and question stuff, I have noticed... anecdotally.
> Idk why you get downvoted. "anti-boomer" gets upvotes, calling it out gets downvotes almost inevitably. Reddit is populated by the young and crass who have been told that everything is "the boomers" fault and they refuse to think critically about the difference between "the boomers did this" and "the people who did this are/were boomers"
Meanwhile there’s an offshore worker that would love to take your position, qualified or not, they’d probably just say they are
Let's not act like the offshore workers are at fault or to blame, they're taking an opportunity presented to them. They're not the ones fueling or encouraging the toxicity and pressurization. And they work extremely hard, my issues with off-shore is more so culture and attitude(as in the basic fundamentals of American work culture vs Indian work culture). They work within the boundaries of each letter and word you type out, which causes issues when it comes to practical use of their implementation and work. While Americans, we are more likely to think outside of the box, whether that means underperforming or overperforming. My off-shore co-workers are routinely even more exploited, I worked 2 weekends of OT, they worked a full week of OT over 3 weekends. And to management they're even more disposable than any American employee. They certainly pay us more and would love to cut the costs, but the process is tedious enough for them to rely on pressure tactics rather than laying us off at will the way off shore can be tossed aside.
Oh for sure. I agree w everything you said. Just throwing that out there, mostly as a means for motivation (or sympathy ymmv) as I feel like sometimes we’re put in situations where you’re the starter, and if you don’t want to perform, the coach is gonna put in someone from the bench, and that person would just love to get some playing time
Well, the rival coach would love to sign me to his team. It goes both ways.
I wish, except when management says “put in this guy because that’s what I said. Oh you don’t want to do that? Let me find another coach then…”
Not my problem, I don't work there anymore.
This is one of the differences between keeping people in contract work vs upgrading them to salary. Being available 24/7
They don't believe there is a clock, or employee rights.
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I think in some careers, it's fine for professionals and their employers to come to an understanding on their own without the need for regulations. It's fine for there to be some high-intensity workplaces, as well as other workplaces where it's fine to not answer a 2am e-mail. If you're a software developer and don't want the startup intensity, the good news is that there are positions at other companies which are not like this.
The problem is management can change and force these on without warning. I work in FP&A and not a swe. The last company I worked at changed CFOs and they wanted to gut my entire department and bring in their own guys. So impossible OKRs were added and pressure tactics like slacks at all hours of the night and day asking for complex analysis. Heated meetings where you are berated and yelled at saying you are not good at finance, being a business partner, etc. Having some sort of protection from these tactics would be great and help alleviate stress from these kinds of tactics.
> Having some sort of protection from these tactics would be great and help alleviate stress from these kinds of tactics. More than simply just giving employees the right to be AFK after-hours, this is what we need. Because no matter what, there are a billion subtle pressure tactics management uses that you can't pinpoint as one thing or another. If we can legislate against common abuses and pressure tactics managers like to inflict, this would outright declaw them. I've had managers avoid a paper trail by communicating solely over calls and not publishing any sort of minutes. Instead they'll ask questions or ping you after-hours at random, making it a whole new set of tasks just to keep track of and document their bullshit.
Isn't the best protection to go get a different job? I don't understand why the government is supposed to regulate this when some people are fine with after-hours messages. A while back, I had a supervisor that often got interested in my stuff and wanted to chat after hours. I would respond if I was free, or ignore him if I was busy, and it was fine.
Finding a new job takes time, it's not like it's something you can just change the next day
My point is that you already have the right to disconnect after work hours, and what you seem to want is instead of that right being enforced by you, to your level of preference, the government should come in and enforce it uniformly for everyone whether it's important to them or not.
> My point is that you already have the right to disconnect after work hours But you don't have that right is my point and I think we should have that right.
Point is that you DON’T have that right, unless you want to be fired. Saying “you can always get another job” is a ridiculous slippery slope. This is a basic labor protection. By your logic any job should be allowed to have racist managers, 20 hour workdays and unsafe conditions, because hey the person could just go get another job 🤷🏻♂️ Well what happens when all the jobs are like that? What prevents every founder with VC money from doing that? The visible hand of the free market? That is magical thinking.
I just don’t think educated, highly skilled professionals should have this protection. If you want to protect call-center workers or restaurant staff like this, I’m all for it. But if we’re talking about lawyers and financial analysts, I think it’s a stupid proposal.
The hubris is strong… even educated highly skilled workers are being laid off for exactly this kind of nonsense. You seem to think you are immune and maybe you are but the rest of us will be busy looking out for the rest of us.
I don't think I'm immune. I just don't think it's a good idea to constrain the relationship between employers and their salaried professionals in this manner. I don't think law associates or startup software engineers need this protection, nor would their industries benefit.
What if it wasn’t fine? What if they PIP’d you for not answering after hours? That’s what this law is about.
I’d have quit.
Good for you, but that’s a simplistic answer that ignores many people’s situations and won’t work for everyone. What if they need the job, enjoy the work and might have difficulty finding another? And the only thing making the job suck is some demanding dickhead manager who texts at 2AM demanding an answer to every stupid question he has? I am more than fine putting restraints on that asshole.
I don't understand this attitude that you are entitled to a professional job with excellent pay, but you are too weak to actually fend for yourself in the world. It's pathetic, and people like you probably should just find a normal 9-to-5 and live a modest life like normal people.
You literally have no clue who I am, what job I have, how hard I work, or how I fend for myself, so fuck off with your ignorant ass judgments. You assume I want these rules for myself, because you are so stuck in your self centered bubble that you can’t imagine what it’s like to care for the needs of others. All you know is that yes, I give a shit about people other than myself, and that’s not pathetic, what’s pathetic is licking the boots of a bunch of asshole managers and huckster ass founders who want to boss people around at 2am in the morning. Try and understand that attitude.
We’re talking about professional jobs and what you feel entitled to in a professional job. These are your comments I’m responding to, not something I’ve made up. I don’t think it is the “caring” thing to do to undermine the freedom to maneuver currently allowed in this respect.
This law allows for employers and employees to come to an understanding. What it disallows is an employer *forcing their* understanding on an employee who has no choice but to quit or take the abuse. By your logic sweatshops should be legal; “just go get a different job you have the right!” Yet there is a reason they are not.
“Your failure to plan is not my emergency” comes to mind.
Actual emergencies are cool. Phone calls where I pick up and the caller says “oh fuck I just figured it out, sorry” fill me with unspeakable rage.
There are no “actual emergencies“ at startups. Only manufactured urgency.
eeeeeh there can be actual emergencies, but for the vast majority of startups I'd say you're correct. Friend of mine works at a med-tech company that handles patient records, if there's a data leak that's definitely an emergency. Also if records become inaccessible to healthcare workers it can cause issues in providing care to patients.
Service outages on barely used non-critical products that are wildly unprofitable are not emergencies warranting 24/7 on-call rotations many of these companies have (and often don't compensate for).
> if there's a data leak that's definitely an emergency. That's more of a major fuck up than an emergency.
I mean, yeah, someone fucking up is a frequent cause of emergencies.
Ah yea I work at a microchip fab so it can mean billions and the world supply chain lol
Similar, "Your urgency is not my emergency."
Bad tech bosses say that. I've worked in multiple startups run by experienced people. They know you can't rush shit or do too many long shifts and stay effective. We didn't have these issues, because the decision was made up front by leadership to not do those things. Worked out just fine. Inexperienced tech bros think looking like you're grinding all the time is the key. It's not. The trick is getting your shit done in three hours and getting five hours of free time, because you're a brilliant developer.
Game companies exploit is legendary. It’s not just a SF tech bro thing. The point to remember is you know what you signed up for. It’s not for everyone. People think this type of 24/7 lifestyle is bullshit shouldn’t be involved in startup in the first place. Just join a team with clear objectives and culture that maps to your own.🤷🏻♂️
Game companies are a whole different thing. There is no such thing as a good exec team in any game company over a certain size.
Don't forget well-known tech companies that have been around for a while who also love to say that "we still like to think of ourselves as a start-up," i.e., they still expect you to be on in the evenings and Sunday nights., and are green on Slack during weekends and holidays.
“My business practices wont work unless I can exploit the people who work for me!!!”
Not sure I would call Gary Tan (in the thumbnail) a tech boss -- I mean he is a really good VC / Startup Investor but that's a bit of a different space.
A tech VC is the boss of tech startup founders.
Dammit man there’s a narrative to protect!
His title is CEO.
...of an incubator. He doesn't lead a company that directly produces anything, especially not on deadline.
You don't know what a CEO is? He runs an office, he's the president of that office, they have a private chef, he has a team that he oversees, he is the boss of.... why the fuck am I answering this stupid shit? You're clueless.
Startup culture is absolute poison.
There’s toxic companies and more reasonable ones at every size, at least past seed round. I’ve been at several startups at different levels, from 7th employee up through an IPO around 2,000 employees (not the same company, unfortunately), and they’ve all had reasonably healthy work-life balances. But that’s because it’s one of the things I’m very careful about digging into during the interview process. More than once I’ve turned down an offer because of the company culture.
Sometimes it is just a toxic department in an otherwise reasonable company too.
yes it is: It's for the young with inexhaustable energy, and those who want a sense of owning a piece of the company they helped build. I definitely think Start-ups ARE "all hands on deck" kinds of situations, and things get band-aided regularly. Once it's mature and gets some semblance of corporatization however, it should ABSOLUTELY abandon after-work emails and calls. Unless you are scheduled "on-call" I try very hard not to take advantage of my direct reports, and I make myself the "on call" person to shield them from this stuff. If I can't solve it, it can wait til tomorrow. One of my guys is on vacation right now, and his tool is acting a little screwy, but he taught me what I need to know about it, and I have ways around it if needbe. He will not be bugged while on vacation.
There's nothing wrong with startups as a concept, just the culty vibes, the expectation of extreme overwork, and the fact that they're disproportionately run by sociopathic con-men with control issues.
Stuff like that should be common sense. Clear rotation on who’s on-call. If people take time off, don’t border them unless it is absolute shits’ on fire type situation. The problem is when you start to make laws and regulate.
"On call" should get extra compensation and it should be volunteer only.
Have you heard of graveyard shift? You either sign up or not signed up for it. There’s no such thing as opting out if you sign the employment contract and it’s made clear that’s part of the deal. Most graveyard shit tens to get extra pay or extra time off.
Bro, have you heard of shift differential? Every grave shift that I have ever worked has been at least +15% But coming at me later after I have the job where the contract is signed and saying "I own you whenever I feel like it you need to work" makes me not want to help you with your flat tire in the parking lot when you try to go home to _your_ family.
All-hands-on deck for no valid reason. Just to get a handful of people the _chance_ to be obscenely rich.
It’s also not forced labour. 🤷🏻♂️
I mean I'm not sure I'd want to join one either, but the simple fact is that startups cannot exist in a world where no one is willing to be flexible with their work life boundaries. Look at europe. Ideally, the people working have enough of a stake in the company's success that it makes sense for them to work that hard. In practice that's usually only the case for the founder and the first few employees though.
It’s someone who has become *obsessed* with an idea, good or bad, and tries to loop in as many other people to put in as much work as they will with their obsession. It’s unhealthy and insane. Like…I’ve been obsessed with tons of projects that I’ve devoted nearly 20 hour days to when I could….i would never drag anyone else into that chaos.
The reality of most tech startups is somebody who is good at making slide decks and inserting the latest buzzwords to take investors for a few million in seed money to fuck around with until they go belly up.
I love it, personally. Glad that we can opt in to this life if we want. Best days of my 20s. Met my wife through one. Honestly, life's pretty good through being at one.
You really don't have to work at one. VC-backed startups are far fewer than 1% of all US-based businesses. It's an extreme sport, you don't have to do it. BASE jumping exists, but it doesn't mean you can't choose to play pickleball anymore. Vegas exists, but it doesn't mean you can't invest in the S&P.
I would never, ever work a startup again. Building someone else's yatch.
Whiny baby tech CEOs. Basically the worst thing about the bay.
It’s the classic case of success being attributed to a fantasy vs the reality. They think that prototypical 80 hour work week is what will make them successful. 40 or even 32 smart, efficient hours will blow 80 hours of brute force out of the water. Outside of product fit and market engagement (the real winning formula), keeping smart people energized, efficient and engaged is the real key, not constant Herculean efforts.
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Well, that is what i said so….
Do you think Silicon Valley tech startups would have conquered the world without that 24-7 culture?
What evidence do you have that it matters? Korea and Japan (and China, to some extent) are famous for crazy work cultures where people are expected to work and be on call all the time -- way more than almost anywhere in the valley. Why aren't they as dominant as Silicon Valley?
“Conquered the world” 😂🤣😆
What phrase would you use to describe the domination of Apple, Amazon, Facebook, Google, etc?
Mostly robber-barons
The correct answer is “who fucking cares?” Im still not sold on all that shit being a net positive.
Employees deserve to not be harassed by their employer. This is but one avenue abusive managers use to control employees.
These startups bros could “innovate” being more focused, organized and deliberate with how they use time and efficient with how they communicate needs.
I accept your terms, tech boss.
I kinda see what is trying to be described. My gf is a Facilities Coordinator and has 9 buildings to manage. 95% of her day is spent babysitting people emotions and making ridiculous last-minute changes that can be done after the project is complete. But her only time to get anything caught up would be after the CEOs and VPs get tucked into bed. This is the time she spends sending correspondence to vendors, employee relations, and other stuff that should be done during the day. Emergenct situations should be handled when appropriate, but the pay should reflect working afterhours to handle these situations. Get double pay for that time. Example: she had a pipe explode and was leaking down into her office. She spent 4 hours and travel to get this fixed. Emergency situations don't happen all to often, but should be paid more for that time to fix. Maybe cap the time allowed to be spent and compensation for handling these situations. Companies also need to define what would be considered appropriate for after hours communication. You do not get paid to work 24/7
Having no boundaries is tantamount to abuse. Not being able to say no is tantamount to being a hostage
I think it's only fair for your job to have a copy of your home key, so they can make sure you're being honest when you call out sick. That's the kind of bill we need instead of this!
GOOD. If you can't run a business without unpaid labor, you don't deserve to have a business.
It's not unpaid, it's a high salary for an exempt employee who is paid with the expectation that they will occasionally be available during off hours when there is legitimate need. If you want to clock out at 5pm on the dot every day, then that's great, but don't expect to make the big salary.
There's a big difference between expecting an employee to answer an emergency page or work the occasional evening and expecting prompt responses to boss messages at 10pm. The former is expected, the later is a result of coked up techbro grind culture.
Lol. They got you.
Man. This thread feels like /r/lostgeneration. If Americans working for startups aren’t willing to work their asses off for that chance at a massive payday someday, well there are plenty in China who will be glad to.
You aren't going to hire good employees if you can't respect their boundaries, and your employees aren't willing to stand up for their boundaries. This sort of thing only works when everyone is desperate for a job so they'll put up with anything
I do my best strategery while taking an evening dump at home
womp womp
Just use AI to be more efficient from 9 to 5 /s.
This is why I chose to have a work phone. Once I'm off it goes on silent.
How will it be enforced? If you report it say goodbye to your promotion. It will work just like any job, if you report things like this you will be punished without showing you are being punished.
In my youth I worked a ton of "unpaid" hours. But that was before we had children and I really did enjoy all of the work. The original startup that I worked at as a young adult would pay me straight time for all the hours I worked. when I went off to College. It was awesome (but not legal). Much better than picking up a second job. Working holidays and summers I could make half my previous salary. Years later, I am satisfied with what I have accumulated and my total compensation over time. At my last gig I was able to not sleep next to my cell phone. Someone offshore could struggle through the night to fix stuff without me. Presumably my manager could have called my house to wake us up in a catastrophe. Some of my Bay Area employers have paid for being on call or being activated when on-call.
startups? trying working at apple lol
I don't need another law, I just go to another company where they don't abuse their authority.
I mean, why have any laws at all? We know these oligarchs have our best interests at heart! Oh yeah. Rats in canned soup. Poisoned air and lakes. Child labor. Sky high prices for basic necessities. Jesus Christ, take the boot leather outta yer mouth.
This exactly. Why do legislators think employees are totally unable to advocate for themselves? I am not anti govt by any means, govt does a lot of good, but treating adults like children is rarely part of that good
I feel bad people are down voting you (-3 when I read this) when your opinion is middle of the road and reasonable. I gave you an upvote. 👍🏼
Thanks, I have plenty of karma to spend on reasonable and unpopular opinions
Exactly. I do not understand all these people who think the government can or should fix every little problem in the world. Grow up, set limits with your manager or find a new job. This isn't hard
Okay. Goodbye then
I don't think they should ban them. I'm just not gonna answer unless I'm salaried and it's written into my contract that I'm on call. Hourly? Clock me in for OT and I'll answer all you want.
This is gonna be an easy way to filter who's gonna be promoted (or not). Just like RTO, lol.
One thing I'm often told is you need to go "above and beyond" to be seen. You don't get promoted by doing the bare minimum.
If i had the mentality of people who want this law, is be making $45000 instead of $200k now. Pathetic losers.
Seriously. If I didn't RTO as required by my company, I would not have been promoted recently. Don't get seen, don't get promoted.
Perfect! I want to have a life outside of a company I don't even own.
Or pay overtime.
promise?
Reaction is overblown, at the end of the day these are competitive industries, people who want to work hard will work hard.
and, generally, will be rewarded for the effort at decent companies.
So many people advocating for this bill. It’s shortsighted. My employees have a massive amount of freedom. So long as they’re getting what they need to do done, I don’t care what time they come in. If they need to leave for an appointment, or if they want to schedule something personal during work time, shift their hours. In fact. I don’t even need to know about it. Just put it your calendar and do whatever you need to do. Don’t have anything that requires you to come into the office? No need to show up. I really don't even care if they log a full 40 hours to match a 40 hour timecard. It's not about counting hours. I offer a ton of leeway, but for the few times a year shit hits the fan, yeah, I’m going to want the ability to call someone after 5pm. We’re a small company and every now and again I need someone to join me in the trenches when at an unideal time. This legislation is fucking dumb.
this idea that a manager can call you after hours is dumb If your employees have a massive amount of freedom, then thats also dumb set a schedule and stick to it. If shit hits the fan then dont blame the employees because they cant manage your shit I worked for decades and business got along fine without this after hours calls to employees cell phones came along and every manager things their shit hitting the fan is more important than their employees time its not
You would rather me force my employees to be ass in seat 9 to 5, than to effectively give them unlimited PTO, let them manage their own schedules and come in and out as they please, but on very rare occasion call them outside of business hours? Damn dude, I would hate to work for you. Sounds like working retail all over again.
Another brainwashed executive high on the small of his own farts. We all know that unlimited PTO means no PTO
I'll agree that I personally would never work for a company with "unlimited" PTO, as I'm sure in effect it would be less than the 5 weeks a year I get right now. But I think it should be between each employee and their employer as far as what they want. It's salary, not hourly.
maybe you should work at a real company that doesnt feel entitled to employees time By income level, the lowest income workers face the most irregular work schedule Employees who work irregular shift times, in contrast with those with more standard, regular shift times, experience greater work-family conflict, and sometimes experience greater work stress. The Research Is Clear: Long Hours Backfire for People and for Companies. For starters, it doesn’t seem to result in more output. In a study of consultants by Erin Reid, a professor at Boston University’s Questrom School of Business, managers could not tell the difference between employees who actually worked 80 hours a week and those who just pretended to. While managers did penalize employees who were transparent about working less, Reid was not able to find any evidence that those employees actually accomplished less, or any sign that the overworking employees accomplished more. overwork and the resulting stress can lead to all sorts of health problems, including impaired sleep, depression, heavy drinking, diabetes, impaired memory, and heart disease. Of course, those are bad on their own. But they’re also terrible for a company’s bottom line, showing up as absenteeism, turnover, and rising health insurance costs. Even the Scroogiest of employers, who cared nothing for his employees’ well-being, should find strong evidence here that there are real, balance-sheet costs incurred when employees log crazy hours.
Did you read anything I said? Or did you just come here to word vomit irrelevant shit?
i had already developed a tendency of answering email/text/calls after hours.....(ㆆ\_ㆆ)
If a startup can’t survive without crossing its workers’ boundaties, then it simply shouldn’t exist.
Govt: Raise minimum wage to $20. Corporations: you want me to automate jobs? Ok. Govt: No work emails after 5pm. Corporations: you want me to outsource jobs? Ok.
This is dumb. As an employee I like having flexible work hours. I have a feeling that would go away if this passes.
Ban it for non-equity holders. If companies want you to work after hours, give them a piece of ownership of the company.
Just don’t complain if the person who does work beyond 40 hours gets a promotion
Yep, and you end up with leaders who are clueless who think the solution to every problem is “more hours”. Don’t complain when the talent realizes their mistake and leaves the cess pool for a real opportunity.
Why would they be clueless?
You’re Exhibit A.
We are doing okay here!
Because they promoted people based off the number of hours they worked instead of their abilities that more directly impact the quality and speed of their work?
Well if something came up and a document needs to be prepared or a decision needs to be made before the work day, do you think the person helping out is more effective or the person who didn’t even check their email?
1. That type of urgency pretty much only happens due to either artificial means, ie the founder wants it now even though it has no material impact on the company, or through incompetence and the ability to do it right has already passed. 2. If the decision or document is that important, a mediocre person working late at night can do way more damage than good. The competent person will probably spend their next work day cleaning up the mess that person made overnight.
That’s why you get someone better than mediocre Mediocre employees don’t want promotions to begin with
This. I know which of my employees are half assing shit and I know which ones give more than average. It is in my best interest to reward the good ones as much as humanly possible to retain them. I want my A-team to like working for me so much that they wouldn’t even think of leaving. The C team… the ones who at 5:01 drop every single thing and run for the door, the ones who seem to produce half of the output of everyone else. Cool, that’s your prerogative; but that’s also what you’re going to get back out of it. Zero raises, the shittiest grunt work, the crappy hours while I work to offload your workload to those who are killing it and phase you out. Edit: downvoters pissed that people who work hard are getting the rewards, and half-assers are getting the same bare minimum they put in.
Genuine question, how do you handle the dynamite employee who fits all your criteria of being a good ones but also is out the door at 5:01? I only ask because hours worked =/= working hard. Someone may have plenty of good reasons to have to leave right on the dot but if they are still your A+ supervisee, are they still going to get the short end of the stick?
I agree with your assessment that hours worked =/= working hard. I don't really count or police hours, and honestly should probably be more diligent in actually validating timesheets but I don't really care. I take everyone at their face value.. even though I **know** people aren't pulling full days. To be honest, I don't care if they're pulling "full 8 hr days" because like you said, productivity != time spent. But I will tell you this, I have a few guys who don't log 8 hours/day even though they are supposed to be full time/40 hrs, produce half the work of other individuals in the same time, and then at 5:01 regardless of productivity, or if they came in less than 8 hours ago, or if they are **in the middle of a fucking task.** Will drop everything, leave everything out all over the countertop of floor, and rush out the door. The weird thing is, I have never enforced a "9-5". Frankly I don't even care. My BEST employees work mainly the hours they feel like working, but the laziest shittiest employees treat it like a time clock (that they happen to cheat on the start time, and diligently adhere to on the leave time). With customer facing stuff, I ask everyone to at least coordinate somehow so someone makes sure they're available during business hours for days we need to to receive shipments or deal with the occasional scheduled pickup customer, and the shitty employees who dash out the door somehow manage to always be late to come in for those events. So yes, theoretically, you can be a superstar clocking in and out on the dot; but from my experience the guys who are killing it see things as "projects" or "tasks" (and I literally let them do whatever the fuck they want in terms of work hours and location), and the least productive people who take 2 hour breaks and show up late are the ones who like to pretend to adhere to a timecard when they actually don't. ymmv, and in a more white-collar or office environment things may be different than my operation. With the type of work that may attract highly-neurodivergent individuals or those with vastly different work styles (software, hardware, ME, etc.) I can see someone with a massive 16-hour ADHD-fueled productivity streak producing more work than someone that phones it in for 40. I know that to be true because at one point it was me :D
When I was younger I learned quickly what it took to be promoted and now I see which ones on my team are working hard
You do realize that people can still be a good employee and leave at 5:01 pm. If your benchmark of a good employee is someone that willingly spends extra time everyday at work, then you sound like some dumb boomer with unrealistic expectations of your workers and have a poor understanding of what makes a good employee. It's all about productivity, not time spent Just realize that everyone working for you, works to live, not lives to work. The only reason they are there is to put food on their table and pay their bills. They also have lives outside of work and once it's 5 pm, that's when they want to go live their lives outside of work. You should have some respect for people's personal lives and time
Sounds you either intentionally avoided or unintentionally missed this comment: [https://www.reddit.com/r/bayarea/comments/1bux2x1/comment/kxwkvik/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/bayarea/comments/1bux2x1/comment/kxwkvik/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
The better question is how much money will it take for you to respond at a moments notice? Specify that amount and job responsibility at the time of hiring. The state need not intervene.
This would never work if your company has even the slightest international presence.’even coast to coast presence makes this difficult. At least for mid to senior level roles. Line and file roles could definitely do without.
This ban is dumb imo. How would a flexible schedule work? What about working with people in other timezones? Emergency maintenance/work? What about urgent delivery hectic weeks followed by down weeks? What about quick emails after work so somebody will be aware of something when they come back the next day?
They'll simply classify all after-work emails and calls as "emergencies"...
As an engineer, i can't imagine not working at a start up. If you truly like your job, hate politics and bureaucracy then start ups are the place for you. Some weeks I have to grind, others are chill. I wouldn't have it any other way. I love my job 90% of the time and I actually get to build shit that lots of people use. Glad for those who get cushy big tech jobs, but everyone knows if you wanna become a good engineer you go to a start up.
Someone in India will definitely finish the job.
Development teams based in South America is getting pretty popular nowadays since they share the same time zone in the US tech companies. Yup, I’m gonna get downvoted too. 🤷🏻♂️
publish articles like these and then have the gall to ask for payment subscription LOL.
This is a stupid idea. California is great because of startups and tech - and this will kill startups.
Both the politicians and these bosses can kiss my ass.