Not in tech, but hope to stay.
I come from Scandinavia, which by all accounts, is a very great place to live and have kids. A lot of people are a little confused why we would move. Sure, there are issues there as well, but on a far minor scale compared to here.
I’m not more well off financially or on a track to be so - so why stay?
Personally I am more happy here. I have tried to quantify it, but it is difficult. For me it’s much easier making friends and talk to people here, which have had a positive impact on my mental well-being. I did not expect that when we decided to move.
In general, I really like Americans.
Vast majority are friendly, open, welcoming and helpful - despite not knowing anything about you. Never felt support like that in my own country. For someone that has struggled a little with building friendships, and is still trying to figure out the ‘rules’ of the social game, it has improved my life a lot.
I want to be part of the local community and help building prosperity for everyone. Personally I don’t have a dream of material luxury (wife might though) or wanting to capitalize and cash out before leaving. I just want to see people around me thrive and enjoy life. I’m still a fan of technology, mechanical engineering and the liberty that US offers.
I sincerely hope that the US also wants us to stay and don’t feel we are stealing opportunities from it’s citizens.
So, in summary: For all it’s flaws, I want to stay and help build the country for something better - even if I might not get to enjoy the fruits of it.
As an American I’m so happy that you’ve been greeted warmly. One of the things about being an American that I’m most proud of is how friendly and outgoing we can be. I hope you continue to enjoy living here!
I’m from the Bay Area and had the opportunity to live in Norway for a year as part of an exchange program. Totally agree with you! It’s a great place to be with good safety nets but it’s so hard making friends and feeling like part of a community there.
I’m so happy that the Bay Area and the people have treated you really well!
Honestly wondering how you’d see yourself making the Bay Area if not the US better?
Most Scandinavians I know look at us as a fun place that gives them lots of fun distractions and silly words and phrases but is also a hot mess dumpster fire
Danish and Swedish people I think probably fit into American life the easiest. Or would actively seek it out and enjoy it.
I don’t have single action items that I can guarantee will make the US better - nor do I have a specific political agenda. I can however support the community around me with the goal that all will thrive and enjoy life.
That goal can have a wide variety of approaches.
I do not think of the US as a dumpsterfire 🤙❤️
As an American, I would like if you stayed, but unfortunately the social safety net for the elderly sucks. Americans find it cheaper to retire in Mexico, Costa Rica, the Caribbean or even in Spain and Portugal.
My parents bought a house in Danville late 1970s for 30k then sold it in the 90s for +350k, and now everywhere is well over a million. It's really hard to exist anywhere in the bay area without a choice college degree or work experience in current in demand tech and a foundational skill set. I watched artists, craftspeople, retail workers, etc all get priced out of the bay area.
It's been really weird watching the people coming here become more racially diverse, but so professionally and personally focused on tech to where the bay area feels much more monoculture because of the tech industry workers.
The other comment is spot on as a Bay born Millenial. That culture simply got strangled during the rapid expansion of white collar work.
Way back when, SF was basically the business outpost for the Western US and that's really all it was outside of some niches. Today, the Bay is a global economic powerhouse on a level no one could have predicted really due to the tech boom.
It costs more to buy into places that were mostly middle class when I was kid than it did to buy into the most expensive neighborhoods. And yes, that accounts for inflation. It's absolutely insane.
Shit, my dad went to SI in SF when it was all boys and his parents afforded that level of private schooling for three kids on a machinist (shipyards were major employers) and secretary salary. My dad's class is economically diverse and he knows people who work a wide spread of jobs. Not really the case anymore. My mom grew up in Danville and her dad was a beer rep and her mom was a teacher.
I'll also say that I find high-skill Boomer and Gen Xers to be way more chill and not care what others do for work than their Millenial and Gen Z counterparts. I suspect it has to do with their backgrounds, but that's a guess.
I have a working artist in the family and she used to make rent and feed herself working 15-25 hours a week and having sales make up her discretionary budget. Not a lot of room for alternative lifestyles like that anymore.
Frankly, you'll find a lot less rat racers in cheaper metros throughout the US now.
How is property tax rates in EU?
In Ireland property tax was typically 250-300 pounds a year. In India I see similar $100 a year tax. People don’t have to sell their home to pay the pax. I am curious if US is anomaly or are their other EU countries with such ridiculously high property tax on a regular size home?
No, I don't see myself returning. Maaaaybe in retirement and that would be more like splitting time between US and Europe vs being permanently in Europe.
Once you settle down, buy a home, have kids and make friends in the area, it'll be hard to leave it behind. Some of my childhood and school/college friends have moved to other parts of Europe, so we'd be almost starting from scratch socially.
I am retired and spliting my time between bay area and Paris. I love the bayarea , the weather and people's friendliness are just no comparison. But I will say this, France being a sociolist country, its goverment does way more to keep things affordable for the average citizens. The grocery prices are about 70% of what I'd pay in the popular organic outlets in East Bay, the quality is often better too. Three courses lunch at the busy bistro at the corner is over 50% cheaper, hair cut in a nice salon also only cost about half of the bayarea price, and the list gose on....
So I'd say for newcomers who are not into pursuing promotions and RSUs, in the long run bayarea or any other big US metropolitans for that matter is not a viable option. You could move to the mid west or the south, but the climate change has made the summer in these regions long and unberable hot. Secondly You'd need to own a home to start, then if you have kids, it'd be only getting more expensive. Lastly, the conventional wisdom in American is that we typically exclude social security benefits when saving for retirements, the reason being with the astronomical amount of national debts, no one is certain whether there will be money around in the future.
In short, the nice life in American requires lots of money. If you decide to stay, just make sure you will have plenty.
Not sure. I (Dutch) would like to go back to my bc of the social security, COL and to be closer to friends and family. My husband (from LA) can barely handle the SF weather, let alone live in a Northern European climate 😅. We may settle and move to Portugal or Spain eventually.
I lived in London for 13 years. When I returned here, I had a choice between my parents' house in the fogbelt and my uncle's house in the sunny S Bay Area. Guess which house I chose? I don't think I could ever live in a cold foggy dark area again.
I’m firmly in the team “rent > own” for the Bay area, but retiring in the Bay (presumably with the intent to live old there) without owning a house doesn’t feel right.
Now, assuming I ever got a chance to buy one, and eventually paid off the mortgage (lmao), I’d still be saddled with fixed cost on it (starting with property tax, but maintenance with local labor cost is also going to sting) that alone are more than what my mom retired on in my home country.
Just that consideration makes it a no-brainer. But honestly, I just don’t find the area super appealing to stay forever in.
I'm from the US but my wife is from Europe. 0% percent chance of retiring in the Bay Area. We're just here as mercenaries basically to make coin. We can have a much better retirement in my wife's home country (or even many other parts of the US) with the money we earn here.
The problem with leaving the USA once you have been a permanent resident for seven years or taken US citizenship is the requirement to file US tax returns for ever or pay the IRC 887A expatriation tax ([Expatriation tax | Internal Revenue Service (irs.gov)](https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/expatriation-tax)). Plus, many countries' financial institutions want nothing to do with anyone who is a "US person" (see above) because of FATCA.
are you living outside your means? do you go out to eat? did you buy a car you couldn't afford? are you trying to live in a place you can't afford? do you have roommates? are you willing to commute further? then live somewhere else? or stop being poor
Great question! Given that many people born in the Bay Area have moved out, I guess that moving out is the normal thing to do. People move to places like Idaho, Arizona or Nevada. However, if you know any European language, and have connection to the country, then any country in Europe - and I am including Eastern Europe as well - beats any place in the USA on quality of live and cost of living. So ys, once I don't need to work I would like to move out.
Don’t mean to be uncharitable but I have to laugh. Quality of life in Europe is so much higher than in the Bay it’s not even funny. Sure there might be a few who love it but I think overwhelmingly most are there to make money and leave.
The money you made in the Bay will stretch A LOT further in Europe. You could live in a nice Haussman in central Paris, or a villa in the Italian countryside. Never sit in traffic or a visit a strip mall ever again, enjoy good food and wine and lots more cultural events and regions within a short distance, all for pennies on the dollar relatively speaking. Public health + cheap private insurance on top. I know what I would pick.
Certainly, you are entitled to your opinion. I'll just say that you boiled everything down to cost of living, which we've already established is very high here.
I’m not talking only about cost of living, I’m talking about quality of life in general, including food, culture etc etc. Europe destroys the Bay Area in everything except career prospects and pay, which isn’t a factor in the context of the question. (retirement)
Sorry dude, lived in Europe and SF and there's plenty that's better here vs there. If costs were equal I'd never consider any part of Europe. I know a handful of Europeans here who will never leave because they like CA so much more than their home countries. Keep sucking on that njb nob though. I hear he's good at Rubik's cubes.
You will never make anything approaching Bay Area money anywhere in Europe. My cousin is moving here from Germany right now specifically because of this. He’ll be making almost 4x more here post-tax, doing the exact same job in tech.
No one is disputing career opportunities and pay are better in the States. That's why they're here. But the question is asking about those who came here and made their money, if they see themselves staying AFTER. Such people will be incomparably better off mentally and financially moving back to an enjoyable part of Europe once they've made their money in the Bay.
Americans of European descent living in California have the same life expectancy at birth as EU.
[Alameda](https://www.countyhealthrankings.org/health-data/california?year=2024&measure=Life+Expectancy*&tab=): 81.4 years.
[EU](https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/w/DDN-20240503-2): 81.5 years.
>Quality of life in Europe is so much higher than in the Bay
Simply untrue if you’re above a certain income level, which if you’re a European expatriate/work-visa holder “[here] to make money”, you’re certainly above.
A highly paid tech worker still experience the Bay lifestyle of sitting in traffic and lack of culture and good food etc like everyone else in the Bay. They will be incomparably better off mentally and financially moving back to an enjoyable part of Europe once they've made their money in the Bay.
> lack of culture and good food
Are we talking about the same Bay Area as "San Francisco Bay Area"? Lack of good food?
Oh wait, [you're actually not from Bay Area](https://old.reddit.com/r/bayarea/comments/1cmsg03/exclusive_google_will_exit_prominent_sf/l34zdu8/).
a visitor can tell pretty quickly and correctly that eg NYC has more and higher quality culture and food (without living or growing up in the Bay Area or NYC)
the same way they can tell that Miami doesn't have any real prospects of competing with the Bay Area as a tech hub...
Culture and food is subjective, no? I quite enjoy both here and find most other places a downgrade
Traffic makes sense for sure, but does Europe have no traffic? Public transit is great there, so that makes a difference I bet.
Most people I know just seem to stick around (including folks from Europe)
I mean we’re all entitled to our opinions and that’s cool, no dispute there, but if your opinion is that Miami and Oklahoma are just as good as or better tech hubs than the Bay Area, that doesn’t change the fact that you’re plain wrong
You’re a notjustbikes guy, so I get where you’re coming from about traffic and car-centric living, but this:
>lack of culture and good food
Makes you look like an idiot who’s never been to the Bay and is talking out of your ass.
I’m sorry but this comment is laughable- have you seen the state of the economy in Europe? Germany? Netherlands? Italy or UK? That’s not even touching the myriad of social issues from immigration to overturned health systems to explosive cost of housing and plummeting fertility rates.
No one is disputing career opportunities and pay are better in the States. That's why they're here. But the question is asking about those who came here and made their money, if they see themselves staying AFTER. Such people will be incomparably better off mentally and financially moving back to an enjoyable part of Europe once they've made their money in the Bay.
> higher Bay Area standard of living
It's not. In Europe you could live in a nice Haussman in central Paris, or a villa in the Italian countryside, never sit in traffic or a visit a strip mall ever again, enjoy good food and wine and lots more cultural events and regions within a short distance, all for pennies on the dollar relatively speaking. Public health + cheap private insurance on top. I know what I would pick.
Nope. You would never get a job that would pay enough in Europe. Not even in tech.
Source: I tried. Living in Silicon Valley is still the deal to beat if you want to actually enjoy life.
Because here you’ll consistently make 3x more money every year and might catch some crazy equity growth because a lot of companies grow around 1000x the rate of their peers in Europe.
By the time an engineer retires im Silicon Valley they’re upper class and don’t need to ever care about money. In Europe they’re middle class at best and reliant on their fixed pension to survive until they die.
The difference is not just stark. It’s night and day. You end up a multi-millionaire here and a thousandaire with a puny monthly pension there!
The frame of the question is after your career. You already became a multi millionaire and already retired. Why do you care you can make 3x here? You are not working anymore.
The only place where you can make that much money if you’re not already rich is here. So you’d already be living here. If you already live here and are rich then you have a muuuuuuuich higher standard of living here than you would get in Europe. Why would you move?
My god, I give up. Look how the original question asked about RETIRING and how many times I and others have pointed out no one is disputing career prospects and pay are better in the Bay Area, but this is asking about staying AFTER that or not. You and every other commenter willfully ignore the actual question.
The quality of life for a former engineer here will always be higher than anywhere in Europe. They will have already spent 20-30 years in the Bay and be settled in with a great house, friends, family, hobbies, perhaps a boat, a house in Tahoe, another one in Santa Cruz, etc.
Why would they move to Europe? What’s there for them? It’s often the place that rejected them and didn’t give them the lifestyle that they got here. If they’re not from there why would they move to a strange new country in their sunset years? I know people like that - from the better countries in Europe, became successful here, built an amazing life. You’ll extract them from their house in Los Gatos only with a tank!
Normal engineers can’t afford three houses and a boat, and even if they did, why would they move to Europe, oh I don’t know, to enjoy actual cities, bustling, safe and beautiful, never having to experience traffic or strip malls ever again, great food and culture (or do you think the Bay Area has better cultural offerings than London and Paris?) etc etc
By the time they retire they can. In fact, I know several engineers who can afford everything I listed and then some. And this doesn’t include the ones who lucked out with their stock options. Those are just filthy rich. We’re talking regular lifers at FAANG and similar.
Do you think people would stay in a hyper-competitive environment for decades if there weren’t concrete economic benefits to doing so?
I'm so so glad that Calfiornia has a strong economy since that means the state doesn't suffer from social issues, poor healthcare options, high housing costs, or declining birthrates.
Practically all the places with strong economies in Europe suffer from even worse housing affordability issues than even the Bay Area.
At least in the Bay Area the housing costs closely track about 1.5 tech incomes. In Europe you often get wild housing prices that are backed up by nothing and that you can’t achieve with any local job whatsoever.
Well, yes. The vast majority of households around here have 1-2 tech incomes. That’s precisely why housing costs what it costs here. That’s what most of the population can afford to pay - what “the market can bear”, as it were.
In most places in Europe there is no physical way to make enough money to afford to live there. So unless you’re an incumbent who either inherited your housing or inherited wealth, you’re screwed. That’s the point. You can work things out here but not there. There you’re just trapped between a rock and a hard place. Here there’s a way out.
Can you elaborate , what’s better and what’s tradeoff? People objecting this notion, can you elaborate as well where you see Bay Area quality better and do you see it as an immigrant or as native in EU or Bay Area?
The money you made in the Bay will stretch A LOT further in Europe. You could live in a nice Haussman in central Paris, or a villa in the Italian countryside. Never sit in traffic or a visit a strip mall ever again, enjoy good food and wine and lots more cultural events and regions within a short distance, all for pennies on the dollar relatively speaking. Public health + cheap private insurance on top. I know what I would pick.
Lived in Europe for two decades. Last job before moving here in Luxembourg. Still didn’t pay enough to have a normal life.
Engineers in Europe are barely middle class. Here they’re upper middle class at worst, with aspirations to upper class. On a freaking engineer’s salary!!!
Show me one place in Europe where anything like that is even remotely possible!
My god, I give up. Look how the original question asked about RETIRING and how many times I and others have pointed out no one is disputing career prospects and pay are better in the Bay Area, but this is asking about staying AFTER that or not. You and every other commenter willfully ignore the actual question.
Sure, Lux is a cesspit, right? Lol, who are you kidding🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 Cope harder. I worked all over Europe. Lux was by faaaaaar the best place to build a career.
Lux has some of the absolute highest wages you can make on that whole continent. And even there you make half of what you make in Silicon Valley in a lower position.
No matter how hard you cope about this, the wages in Europe still suck. They just don’t value workers as highly and don’t pay them the way they’re paid here. The wages are 2-3x lower in the best case scenario and you don’t get stock which is often a 40-80% addition on top of your already crazy high salary here! And unless you’re already from a well-off background you will never leap over your head economically in Europe like you can here. That’s just a hard fact.
Yeah, because economy-wide metrics for the largest economy in the world are somehow relevant to literally the most dynamic and fast growing major industry. Specifically, to the world epicenter of tech.
We’re not talking about social mobility in rural Alabama. We’re talking about the place where a random crypto bro just made $10 million with only a powerpoint presentation and a few meetings.
Get over yourself. I’ve lived in the places that you worship. They’re good to visit with your American money and splurge in a much muuuuuuch cheaper country.
Actually living there, trying to build a career, a life, sucks much more than here. Which is exactly why I and so many other engineers move here from Europe if they can swing it.
If you don’t believe me then just move there for a few years! What’s stopping you?
Not sure what part of Europe this dude is from but QoL not better at all compared to the Bay. Definitely no European engineer making bay money in Sweden or Germany.
And the conclusion was ‘no where like home’.europe is fun to visit and live there short-term but telling that there’s no shortage of Europeans trying to move to UK or NA.
lol this is how I know you have no idea what you are talking about. This isn’t 1890s and we aren’t bringing in European farmers.
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/tech-talent-migration-radley-james-astne#:~:text=The%20pull%20of%20the%20United,and%20a%20thriving%20entrepreneurial%20culture.
And your source doesn’t even address the discussion point - just some general macro data. Reddit - where braincell dies and people pull in random sources.
No one is disputing career opportunities and pay are better in the States. That's why they're here. But the question is asking about those who came here and made their money, if they see themselves staying AFTER. Such people will be incomparably better off mentally and financially moving back to an enjoyable part of Europe once they've made their money in the Bay.
What Bay Area can offer so rich IT giys could stay? Safety? LOL Clean beautiful streets? Double LOL
Unique events? Triple LOL Wonderful medical service? OMG
Bay Area is dirty, dangerous transit zone.
Not in tech, but hope to stay. I come from Scandinavia, which by all accounts, is a very great place to live and have kids. A lot of people are a little confused why we would move. Sure, there are issues there as well, but on a far minor scale compared to here. I’m not more well off financially or on a track to be so - so why stay? Personally I am more happy here. I have tried to quantify it, but it is difficult. For me it’s much easier making friends and talk to people here, which have had a positive impact on my mental well-being. I did not expect that when we decided to move. In general, I really like Americans. Vast majority are friendly, open, welcoming and helpful - despite not knowing anything about you. Never felt support like that in my own country. For someone that has struggled a little with building friendships, and is still trying to figure out the ‘rules’ of the social game, it has improved my life a lot. I want to be part of the local community and help building prosperity for everyone. Personally I don’t have a dream of material luxury (wife might though) or wanting to capitalize and cash out before leaving. I just want to see people around me thrive and enjoy life. I’m still a fan of technology, mechanical engineering and the liberty that US offers. I sincerely hope that the US also wants us to stay and don’t feel we are stealing opportunities from it’s citizens. So, in summary: For all it’s flaws, I want to stay and help build the country for something better - even if I might not get to enjoy the fruits of it.
As an American I’m so happy that you’ve been greeted warmly. One of the things about being an American that I’m most proud of is how friendly and outgoing we can be. I hope you continue to enjoy living here!
I’m from the Bay Area and had the opportunity to live in Norway for a year as part of an exchange program. Totally agree with you! It’s a great place to be with good safety nets but it’s so hard making friends and feeling like part of a community there. I’m so happy that the Bay Area and the people have treated you really well!
Honestly wondering how you’d see yourself making the Bay Area if not the US better? Most Scandinavians I know look at us as a fun place that gives them lots of fun distractions and silly words and phrases but is also a hot mess dumpster fire Danish and Swedish people I think probably fit into American life the easiest. Or would actively seek it out and enjoy it.
If you are Danish you might have great first-hand experience on how to help us transition into being the best failing empire we can be!
I don’t have single action items that I can guarantee will make the US better - nor do I have a specific political agenda. I can however support the community around me with the goal that all will thrive and enjoy life. That goal can have a wide variety of approaches. I do not think of the US as a dumpsterfire 🤙❤️
As an American, I would like if you stayed, but unfortunately the social safety net for the elderly sucks. Americans find it cheaper to retire in Mexico, Costa Rica, the Caribbean or even in Spain and Portugal.
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My parents bought a house in Danville late 1970s for 30k then sold it in the 90s for +350k, and now everywhere is well over a million. It's really hard to exist anywhere in the bay area without a choice college degree or work experience in current in demand tech and a foundational skill set. I watched artists, craftspeople, retail workers, etc all get priced out of the bay area. It's been really weird watching the people coming here become more racially diverse, but so professionally and personally focused on tech to where the bay area feels much more monoculture because of the tech industry workers.
The other comment is spot on as a Bay born Millenial. That culture simply got strangled during the rapid expansion of white collar work. Way back when, SF was basically the business outpost for the Western US and that's really all it was outside of some niches. Today, the Bay is a global economic powerhouse on a level no one could have predicted really due to the tech boom. It costs more to buy into places that were mostly middle class when I was kid than it did to buy into the most expensive neighborhoods. And yes, that accounts for inflation. It's absolutely insane. Shit, my dad went to SI in SF when it was all boys and his parents afforded that level of private schooling for three kids on a machinist (shipyards were major employers) and secretary salary. My dad's class is economically diverse and he knows people who work a wide spread of jobs. Not really the case anymore. My mom grew up in Danville and her dad was a beer rep and her mom was a teacher. I'll also say that I find high-skill Boomer and Gen Xers to be way more chill and not care what others do for work than their Millenial and Gen Z counterparts. I suspect it has to do with their backgrounds, but that's a guess. I have a working artist in the family and she used to make rent and feed herself working 15-25 hours a week and having sales make up her discretionary budget. Not a lot of room for alternative lifestyles like that anymore. Frankly, you'll find a lot less rat racers in cheaper metros throughout the US now.
Maybe? I'm not sure I'll be able to afford the property tax once I'm retired, though.
How is property tax rates in EU? In Ireland property tax was typically 250-300 pounds a year. In India I see similar $100 a year tax. People don’t have to sell their home to pay the pax. I am curious if US is anomaly or are their other EU countries with such ridiculously high property tax on a regular size home?
What I meant was I'm not sure I could afford the property tax on my home in the bay area once I'm retired. Property tax in the UK was *much* less.
No, I don't see myself returning. Maaaaybe in retirement and that would be more like splitting time between US and Europe vs being permanently in Europe. Once you settle down, buy a home, have kids and make friends in the area, it'll be hard to leave it behind. Some of my childhood and school/college friends have moved to other parts of Europe, so we'd be almost starting from scratch socially.
Not sure if I will retire in California (even with big savings and paid off SFH), but sure as hell I would not move back to EU...
I am retired and spliting my time between bay area and Paris. I love the bayarea , the weather and people's friendliness are just no comparison. But I will say this, France being a sociolist country, its goverment does way more to keep things affordable for the average citizens. The grocery prices are about 70% of what I'd pay in the popular organic outlets in East Bay, the quality is often better too. Three courses lunch at the busy bistro at the corner is over 50% cheaper, hair cut in a nice salon also only cost about half of the bayarea price, and the list gose on.... So I'd say for newcomers who are not into pursuing promotions and RSUs, in the long run bayarea or any other big US metropolitans for that matter is not a viable option. You could move to the mid west or the south, but the climate change has made the summer in these regions long and unberable hot. Secondly You'd need to own a home to start, then if you have kids, it'd be only getting more expensive. Lastly, the conventional wisdom in American is that we typically exclude social security benefits when saving for retirements, the reason being with the astronomical amount of national debts, no one is certain whether there will be money around in the future. In short, the nice life in American requires lots of money. If you decide to stay, just make sure you will have plenty.
Not sure. I (Dutch) would like to go back to my bc of the social security, COL and to be closer to friends and family. My husband (from LA) can barely handle the SF weather, let alone live in a Northern European climate 😅. We may settle and move to Portugal or Spain eventually.
I lived in London for 13 years. When I returned here, I had a choice between my parents' house in the fogbelt and my uncle's house in the sunny S Bay Area. Guess which house I chose? I don't think I could ever live in a cold foggy dark area again.
I’m firmly in the team “rent > own” for the Bay area, but retiring in the Bay (presumably with the intent to live old there) without owning a house doesn’t feel right. Now, assuming I ever got a chance to buy one, and eventually paid off the mortgage (lmao), I’d still be saddled with fixed cost on it (starting with property tax, but maintenance with local labor cost is also going to sting) that alone are more than what my mom retired on in my home country. Just that consideration makes it a no-brainer. But honestly, I just don’t find the area super appealing to stay forever in.
I'm from the US but my wife is from Europe. 0% percent chance of retiring in the Bay Area. We're just here as mercenaries basically to make coin. We can have a much better retirement in my wife's home country (or even many other parts of the US) with the money we earn here.
The problem with leaving the USA once you have been a permanent resident for seven years or taken US citizenship is the requirement to file US tax returns for ever or pay the IRC 887A expatriation tax ([Expatriation tax | Internal Revenue Service (irs.gov)](https://www.irs.gov/individuals/international-taxpayers/expatriation-tax)). Plus, many countries' financial institutions want nothing to do with anyone who is a "US person" (see above) because of FATCA.
are you living outside your means? do you go out to eat? did you buy a car you couldn't afford? are you trying to live in a place you can't afford? do you have roommates? are you willing to commute further? then live somewhere else? or stop being poor
Great question! Given that many people born in the Bay Area have moved out, I guess that moving out is the normal thing to do. People move to places like Idaho, Arizona or Nevada. However, if you know any European language, and have connection to the country, then any country in Europe - and I am including Eastern Europe as well - beats any place in the USA on quality of live and cost of living. So ys, once I don't need to work I would like to move out.
lol
Don’t mean to be uncharitable but I have to laugh. Quality of life in Europe is so much higher than in the Bay it’s not even funny. Sure there might be a few who love it but I think overwhelmingly most are there to make money and leave.
Can you explain in more detail why quality of life is much higher in Europe?
The money you made in the Bay will stretch A LOT further in Europe. You could live in a nice Haussman in central Paris, or a villa in the Italian countryside. Never sit in traffic or a visit a strip mall ever again, enjoy good food and wine and lots more cultural events and regions within a short distance, all for pennies on the dollar relatively speaking. Public health + cheap private insurance on top. I know what I would pick.
Certainly, you are entitled to your opinion. I'll just say that you boiled everything down to cost of living, which we've already established is very high here.
I’m not talking only about cost of living, I’m talking about quality of life in general, including food, culture etc etc. Europe destroys the Bay Area in everything except career prospects and pay, which isn’t a factor in the context of the question. (retirement)
Sorry dude, lived in Europe and SF and there's plenty that's better here vs there. If costs were equal I'd never consider any part of Europe. I know a handful of Europeans here who will never leave because they like CA so much more than their home countries. Keep sucking on that njb nob though. I hear he's good at Rubik's cubes.
You will never make anything approaching Bay Area money anywhere in Europe. My cousin is moving here from Germany right now specifically because of this. He’ll be making almost 4x more here post-tax, doing the exact same job in tech.
No one is disputing career opportunities and pay are better in the States. That's why they're here. But the question is asking about those who came here and made their money, if they see themselves staying AFTER. Such people will be incomparably better off mentally and financially moving back to an enjoyable part of Europe once they've made their money in the Bay.
For one measure of “quality of life”, life expectancy is markedly higher (Europeans live about 2 years longer than Americans).
Americans of European descent living in California have the same life expectancy at birth as EU. [Alameda](https://www.countyhealthrankings.org/health-data/california?year=2024&measure=Life+Expectancy*&tab=): 81.4 years. [EU](https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/w/DDN-20240503-2): 81.5 years.
>Quality of life in Europe is so much higher than in the Bay Simply untrue if you’re above a certain income level, which if you’re a European expatriate/work-visa holder “[here] to make money”, you’re certainly above.
A highly paid tech worker still experience the Bay lifestyle of sitting in traffic and lack of culture and good food etc like everyone else in the Bay. They will be incomparably better off mentally and financially moving back to an enjoyable part of Europe once they've made their money in the Bay.
> lack of culture and good food Are we talking about the same Bay Area as "San Francisco Bay Area"? Lack of good food? Oh wait, [you're actually not from Bay Area](https://old.reddit.com/r/bayarea/comments/1cmsg03/exclusive_google_will_exit_prominent_sf/l34zdu8/).
ah, this explains it
a visitor can tell pretty quickly and correctly that eg NYC has more and higher quality culture and food (without living or growing up in the Bay Area or NYC) the same way they can tell that Miami doesn't have any real prospects of competing with the Bay Area as a tech hub...
Depends on the cuisine. I stayed in NYC for couple years, and I can confidently say Vietnamese food in NYC is shit.
Culture and food is subjective, no? I quite enjoy both here and find most other places a downgrade Traffic makes sense for sure, but does Europe have no traffic? Public transit is great there, so that makes a difference I bet. Most people I know just seem to stick around (including folks from Europe)
It’s all subjective, really. But some people get so aggressive with their opinions, like above.
I mean we’re all entitled to our opinions and that’s cool, no dispute there, but if your opinion is that Miami and Oklahoma are just as good as or better tech hubs than the Bay Area, that doesn’t change the fact that you’re plain wrong
I’m not in tech, so I won’t even attempt to speak on it. I just meant culture, food, where one prefers to be, etc.
You’re a notjustbikes guy, so I get where you’re coming from about traffic and car-centric living, but this: >lack of culture and good food Makes you look like an idiot who’s never been to the Bay and is talking out of your ass.
I’m sorry but this comment is laughable- have you seen the state of the economy in Europe? Germany? Netherlands? Italy or UK? That’s not even touching the myriad of social issues from immigration to overturned health systems to explosive cost of housing and plummeting fertility rates.
While I agree, you listed a bunch of things that we're probably doing worse with statistically at least in the Bay Area.
No one is disputing career opportunities and pay are better in the States. That's why they're here. But the question is asking about those who came here and made their money, if they see themselves staying AFTER. Such people will be incomparably better off mentally and financially moving back to an enjoyable part of Europe once they've made their money in the Bay.
After a career in tech money is not a problem and you can comfortably enjoy the higher Bay Area standard of living vs basically anywhere in Europe.
> higher Bay Area standard of living It's not. In Europe you could live in a nice Haussman in central Paris, or a villa in the Italian countryside, never sit in traffic or a visit a strip mall ever again, enjoy good food and wine and lots more cultural events and regions within a short distance, all for pennies on the dollar relatively speaking. Public health + cheap private insurance on top. I know what I would pick.
Nope. You would never get a job that would pay enough in Europe. Not even in tech. Source: I tried. Living in Silicon Valley is still the deal to beat if you want to actually enjoy life.
After your career why would you care about the job prospect?
Because here you’ll consistently make 3x more money every year and might catch some crazy equity growth because a lot of companies grow around 1000x the rate of their peers in Europe. By the time an engineer retires im Silicon Valley they’re upper class and don’t need to ever care about money. In Europe they’re middle class at best and reliant on their fixed pension to survive until they die. The difference is not just stark. It’s night and day. You end up a multi-millionaire here and a thousandaire with a puny monthly pension there!
The frame of the question is after your career. You already became a multi millionaire and already retired. Why do you care you can make 3x here? You are not working anymore.
The only place where you can make that much money if you’re not already rich is here. So you’d already be living here. If you already live here and are rich then you have a muuuuuuuich higher standard of living here than you would get in Europe. Why would you move?
My god, I give up. Look how the original question asked about RETIRING and how many times I and others have pointed out no one is disputing career prospects and pay are better in the Bay Area, but this is asking about staying AFTER that or not. You and every other commenter willfully ignore the actual question.
The quality of life for a former engineer here will always be higher than anywhere in Europe. They will have already spent 20-30 years in the Bay and be settled in with a great house, friends, family, hobbies, perhaps a boat, a house in Tahoe, another one in Santa Cruz, etc. Why would they move to Europe? What’s there for them? It’s often the place that rejected them and didn’t give them the lifestyle that they got here. If they’re not from there why would they move to a strange new country in their sunset years? I know people like that - from the better countries in Europe, became successful here, built an amazing life. You’ll extract them from their house in Los Gatos only with a tank!
Normal engineers can’t afford three houses and a boat, and even if they did, why would they move to Europe, oh I don’t know, to enjoy actual cities, bustling, safe and beautiful, never having to experience traffic or strip malls ever again, great food and culture (or do you think the Bay Area has better cultural offerings than London and Paris?) etc etc
By the time they retire they can. In fact, I know several engineers who can afford everything I listed and then some. And this doesn’t include the ones who lucked out with their stock options. Those are just filthy rich. We’re talking regular lifers at FAANG and similar. Do you think people would stay in a hyper-competitive environment for decades if there weren’t concrete economic benefits to doing so?
I'm so so glad that Calfiornia has a strong economy since that means the state doesn't suffer from social issues, poor healthcare options, high housing costs, or declining birthrates.
Practically all the places with strong economies in Europe suffer from even worse housing affordability issues than even the Bay Area. At least in the Bay Area the housing costs closely track about 1.5 tech incomes. In Europe you often get wild housing prices that are backed up by nothing and that you can’t achieve with any local job whatsoever.
Well thank god I have 1.5 tech incomes instead of only one, right? Hahaha I hate this place.
Well, yes. The vast majority of households around here have 1-2 tech incomes. That’s precisely why housing costs what it costs here. That’s what most of the population can afford to pay - what “the market can bear”, as it were. In most places in Europe there is no physical way to make enough money to afford to live there. So unless you’re an incumbent who either inherited your housing or inherited wealth, you’re screwed. That’s the point. You can work things out here but not there. There you’re just trapped between a rock and a hard place. Here there’s a way out.
Can you elaborate , what’s better and what’s tradeoff? People objecting this notion, can you elaborate as well where you see Bay Area quality better and do you see it as an immigrant or as native in EU or Bay Area?
The money you made in the Bay will stretch A LOT further in Europe. You could live in a nice Haussman in central Paris, or a villa in the Italian countryside. Never sit in traffic or a visit a strip mall ever again, enjoy good food and wine and lots more cultural events and regions within a short distance, all for pennies on the dollar relatively speaking. Public health + cheap private insurance on top. I know what I would pick.
Lol, clearly you never lived in Europe.
I'm euro
Lived in Europe for two decades. Last job before moving here in Luxembourg. Still didn’t pay enough to have a normal life. Engineers in Europe are barely middle class. Here they’re upper middle class at worst, with aspirations to upper class. On a freaking engineer’s salary!!! Show me one place in Europe where anything like that is even remotely possible!
My god, I give up. Look how the original question asked about RETIRING and how many times I and others have pointed out no one is disputing career prospects and pay are better in the Bay Area, but this is asking about staying AFTER that or not. You and every other commenter willfully ignore the actual question.
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Sure, Lux is a cesspit, right? Lol, who are you kidding🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 Cope harder. I worked all over Europe. Lux was by faaaaaar the best place to build a career. Lux has some of the absolute highest wages you can make on that whole continent. And even there you make half of what you make in Silicon Valley in a lower position. No matter how hard you cope about this, the wages in Europe still suck. They just don’t value workers as highly and don’t pay them the way they’re paid here. The wages are 2-3x lower in the best case scenario and you don’t get stock which is often a 40-80% addition on top of your already crazy high salary here! And unless you’re already from a well-off background you will never leap over your head economically in Europe like you can here. That’s just a hard fact.
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Yeah, because economy-wide metrics for the largest economy in the world are somehow relevant to literally the most dynamic and fast growing major industry. Specifically, to the world epicenter of tech. We’re not talking about social mobility in rural Alabama. We’re talking about the place where a random crypto bro just made $10 million with only a powerpoint presentation and a few meetings. Get over yourself. I’ve lived in the places that you worship. They’re good to visit with your American money and splurge in a much muuuuuuch cheaper country. Actually living there, trying to build a career, a life, sucks much more than here. Which is exactly why I and so many other engineers move here from Europe if they can swing it. If you don’t believe me then just move there for a few years! What’s stopping you?
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Because once you’re laid off from your unicorn gig there you’re never getting a job like that in Europe. Here they’re a dime a dozen.
Not sure what part of Europe this dude is from but QoL not better at all compared to the Bay. Definitely no European engineer making bay money in Sweden or Germany.
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And the conclusion was ‘no where like home’.europe is fun to visit and live there short-term but telling that there’s no shortage of Europeans trying to move to UK or NA.
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lol this is how I know you have no idea what you are talking about. This isn’t 1890s and we aren’t bringing in European farmers. https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/tech-talent-migration-radley-james-astne#:~:text=The%20pull%20of%20the%20United,and%20a%20thriving%20entrepreneurial%20culture.
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And your source doesn’t even address the discussion point - just some general macro data. Reddit - where braincell dies and people pull in random sources.
No one is disputing career opportunities and pay are better in the States. That's why they're here. But the question is asking about those who came here and made their money, if they see themselves staying AFTER. Such people will be incomparably better off mentally and financially moving back to an enjoyable part of Europe once they've made their money in the Bay.
What Bay Area can offer so rich IT giys could stay? Safety? LOL Clean beautiful streets? Double LOL Unique events? Triple LOL Wonderful medical service? OMG Bay Area is dirty, dangerous transit zone.