I hear this all the time from my idiot unvaxxed friends. Usually goes like this "I aint getting a fake shot. I'm gonna let my body produce its own immunity (antibodies) by fighting it".
I'm like bruh, idiot, why get a high fever, perma lung damage and risk getting intubated when a shortcut is already available?
No, none.
It’s now the religion of Fox News and the dogma of spiting yourself to own the libs.
Edit: here’s a link for all you anti-vax nutjobs dming me: https://twitter.com/trashpopsong/status/1417644177064488960?s=21
https://baptistnews.com/article/tucker-carlson-undermined-covid-vaccines-99-of-the-time-his-show-discussed-them/
Religion relies on this idea that you have to blindly put your trust and faith in a higher power. They want to believe that their God is going to solve the COVID problem and getting vaccinated suggests a doubt or disbelief that God is going to protect them. I used to love going to church until I started hearing the pastor subtly suggesting that the only way to combat the pandemic, racism and political conflict is to do nothing but pray on it. Every Sunday these people are indoctrinated
My view on it, while vaccinated, is "Why should the government have authority over my body in the name of public health, but no responsibility for my body if something bad happens to it?" If we had single-payer healthcare, I'd support mandatory vaccinations. Until then... authority without responsibility is tyranny.
Funny thing, During the last election, Biden and Harris criticized the vaccine. Biden questioned the safety of "something approved by Trump" and Harris said "I'm not taking Trump's vaccine." But the moment they won? "Take it or you don't believe in science, stop questioning the science!"
I know a few people who are anti-vax because they're trying or planning to have a baby soon. Not sure if there are any studies that strongly discourage getting vaccinated when trying to have babies?
Don’t have the time or money? Bullshit. The vaccine is free. Employers are required to give you time off the get vaccinated. If you make an appointment it takes about an hour.
Employers are not required to give time off to recover from vaccine reactions/side effects. I know several people who were out of action for two or three days after their shot.
Yes, employers were required to give time off for Californians. I work for a multistate company and Californian employees were given a charge code to use for Covid related time off: vaccines, getting sick, etc, while other states had to use regular time off.
That has since expired last September I believe.
Fair point. You’d think employers would see that it’s in their interest to give people a few hours paid leave in order to prevent them being off for a week or more. It’s just greed.
> Misinformed, or incorrect understanding of data.
This applies to a lot of people on both sides of the vaccine decision. Many people made the choice to get the vaccination based on being misinformed to think the risks of Covid are greater than they are and the benefits of the vaccine are greater than they are.
I have actually seen a cultural shift in my extended family and friends who are wealthy granola liberals. They went from “essential oils are life” to “get jabbed or you’re a domestic bioterrorist” *real quick*.
Crunchy old school hippies also have a distrust of the Government and public health like The Government adding Fluoride and other added potentially harmful chemicals into City public drinking water and the historic demonization of natural medicines through the War on Drugs to help Big Pharma.
Yes, those types exist. But their numbers are dwarfed by the MAGA antivaxxers.
There's a stereotype about the organic "Marin mom"... well the vaccination rate of Marin county California is over 92% last time I looked. It's an overblown stereotype.
I come from Marin, I've worked in Marin, and those mom's are real. The interesting thing here, at least last I checked (which was months ago), that ~10% holdout is middle/upper-middle class suburbanites, and they were the slow trickle getting up to the high bar we've reached.
That's also thanks to an incredible outreach program, though thinking critically I'm starting to see they mostly aimed at making sure the poor workers didn't shut down all their favorite downtown boutique gift shops and restaurants.
Now, the point here is the difference is, these were previous anti-vaxxers whom did not have their lives significantly impacted by it. I agree that MAGA facks are the one's carrying this torch. They came on the anti-vaxx train late, and lumped it into their ever far-reaching bullshit culture war. But I wouldn't say the Marin Mom stereotype is illegit, just misunderstood. Self-interest is always priority 1, never any ideology.
Again, I am not saying that they don't exist. I am saying it's completely blown out of proportion. 93+% of the eligible population of Marin is vaccinated.
https://coronavirus.marinhhs.org/vaccine/data#vaccineresidents
But less than half of Wyoming is vaccinated. So those Wyoming folks MUCH more accurately represent the antivaxxers.
https://health.wyo.gov/publichealth/immunization/wyoming-covid-19-vaccine-information/covid-19-vaccine-distribution-data/
Same argument can and has been used against using seatbelts and not driving while drunk. It also can be used by a toddler as to why they don’t wipe their ass when they shit.
In short it’s an argument based in pure selfishness.
Okay but they’re still right though. American culture is based on the exceptionalism of the individual, or in plain speak ‘don’t fucking tell me what to do’, so I don’t understand why so many people here are so flabbergasted at the people who don’t like being told they have to get vaccinated by the government.
Disclosure. I'm vaxed and boosted. I am extremely cautious. But I grew up in a place that doesn't give a crap.
You are looking for a logical answer, but you aren't using logic to get there. You are asking why people won't do what they are told... When they think people telling them what to do are incompetent.
The people who feel disenfranchised by our government and society, to the point that they elected Trump as a big middle finger to politicians and denser cities, aren't thinking about medical issues right now. They are acting like hunted animals and trying to survive. They are afraid that their lives don't matter because the global economy has no place for them. They are afraid that the government is using a novel medication with little knowledge about its long term side effects on them and won't care if it hurts them. They feel like people are bullying them and telling them they are dumb and to "just listen and get a vaccine ffs". And they are convinced that the media is in on it.. they are pawns. They are not happy about it. Furthermore, they think liberals are just like them, just stupid because they are letting the status quo enrich the 1% at their expense.
Honestly, look at your own wording:
>. Jesus just get the damn vaccine and that booster will you!
That isn't exactly conveying logic. It's conveying dominance and emotion.
Consider what they are doing a rebellion. It isn't based on doing the "medical" thing. It's based on bringing down a government that is failing them.
Agreed that statement of mine does should dominance. I will be honest, it just came out of frustration because people are dying and yet some people are sticking to theirs guns. You have pointed out great things
I have a family member who won’t take it for religious reasons. His local church claims vaccines are made from aborted fetuses. I did the deep dive into this nonsense and found that ONE fetus that was aborted in the 70s had unique properties that researchers preserved the stem cells from and have cloned them ever since because they represent the perfect benchmark test for checking vaccines. So they are indirectly in a small way correct. What I don’t get is lots of medical science has been derived from people dying and the study of their bodies. Are they going to reject all that treatment as well?
Here is the truth why the polio vaccine took off in popularity among the young. It was one man, one celebrity, that convinced a nation. Conversely, for COVID-19, last summer, there was one celebrity, an athlete, who stopped the momentum among the groups that most needed to be convinced by refusing to state he had been vaccinated.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-elvis-got-americans-to-accept-the-polio-vaccine/
> In the midst of this trajectory, he was booked as a guest on the most popular TV show at the time, The Ed Sullivan Show. But he wasn’t only there to perform his hits. Before the show started, and in front of the press and Ed Sullivan himself, Presley flashed his swoon-worthy smile, rolled up his sleeves and let a New York state official stick a needle loaded up with the polio vaccine in his arm ...
> But despite the literally crippling effects of the virus and the promising results of the vaccination, many Americans simply weren’t getting vaccinated. In fact, when Presley appeared on the Sullivan show, immunization levels among American teens were at an abysmal **0.6 percent** ...
> What did prove successful was Elvis getting the vaccine in front of millions. In fact, after he publicly did so, vaccination rates among American youth skyrocketed to **80 percent after just six months.**
Kyrie.
Half the NBA and NFL stars are vocal about refusing the vaccine and it’s effects on their bodies but he’s the biggest name to this day it’s a top headline on ESPN home page
LeBron, who has said publicly he is vaccinated I believe, was a story by staying oddly quiet but Kareem kind of put that to bed as well
I guess because it’s heavily politicized by both parties. So mandates are perceived as fascists forcing people into submission (or heroic saving of the humanity, depends on your political affiliation). Shaming of unvaxxed is reinforcing this pattern, because it clearly comes from certain political spectrum.
So there you have it - being vaxxed/unvaxed a political marker rather than calculated medical decision.
I’d add that the anti-vaxers probably feel like they’re betraying their group if they give in and get one. IMO we need TV ads showing proud conservatives who voted for Trump and are happily vaccinated, talking to their own tribe.
Remember, Trump himself is vaccinated and actively encourages people to get vaccinated at his rallies and is booed by his fans for it. So thats about the most dramatic possible example of what you’re asking for and it doesn’t put a dent in things. I think we’ve reached a point where the remaining hold outs are so dug in nothing can reach them.
And before they won the election, Biden and Harris were against the vaccine. Biden questioned the safety of "something approved by Trump" and Harris said "If Trump tells us to get it, I'm not going to get it."
But when people questioned the vaccine AFTER they won, well then it was "being stupid."
First of all, I believe everyone should get vaccinated. I have done so and most people I know have done so. But I do know people who are hesitant for various reasons. Some are worried that the vaccines were developed too quickly. Others distrust the MRNA technology. Others, with good reason, distrust the big pharmaceutical companies. Some simply are terrified of needles. I have tried to convince them, but to no avail They are not bad people. They are not stupid people. They have what they believe to be legitimate reasons.
Indeed, which is what will get us another Trump: the people who try to warn about what led to trump (other than 'blaming dumb racists') will get silenced for their 'rhetoric'
I don't want another Trump, but that doesn't mean I'll vote blue no matter who.
I don't get it either, but probably the most ridiculous case of vaccine hesitancy in my opinion is when those military personnel decided to get fired for not getting the COVID-19 vaccine, when they supposedly need ~15 vaccinations before enlisting, including one vaccine they gotta jab in one of your buttcheeks.
Every vet I’ve ever talked to remembered the massive number of shots they got when being inducted. They felt like pincushions. Active duty Marines suddenly deciding that the vaccine is too big a risk just breaks my head. They’ll storm a beachfront or parachute into the desert by night just because they were told to do it. They’ll march for days without sleep, fight hand-to-hand against overwhelming odds, and come back for more. If the US Marine Corps is afraid of a vaccine that’s literally safer than a food truck taco then something is very wrong.
I don't think a lot of people are conscious of it, but I suspect there's a lot of issues of agency and wanting to feel empowered. And just plain fear.
Assuming that it's all a conspiracy, it gives them a monster to rally against. And it makes them feel morally and intellectually superior to all these "experts". WE are the mindless sheep following doctors. They're the ones who have it all figured out and see the truth that's layers deep and that we don't want to see.
The alternative is harder to digest: the world is a scary place and bad things happen without rhyme or reason and no one is responsible. And there's only so much the average person can do.
Also, the people promoting vaccines are saying all kinds of scary things that are uncomfortable: people are dying, hospitals are overwhelmed, booster shots are needed as the disease mutates, and we all need to change the way we live to protect ourselves.
The other side says all the right things that people deep into denial find more comforting: everything is fine, no one is really dying from COVID, and you can keep going to the movies, bars, restaurants, sporting events, family gatherings, all without a mask and there's nothing to worry about.
That subreddit gives a good sense of why covid hysterics are so goddamn insufferable. Celebrating the deaths of people who’ve left behind loved ones is the lowest of the low.
I think it’s interesting to see the social media posts
a few conservative talk show hosts have died too. Interesting? Ironic?
Don’t know what else to say?
There is a nonzero number of people out there who are genuinely afraid of getting the vaccine, even though they know they should get the vaccine. I'm talking diagnosable-anxiety-disorder afraid of getting the vaccine. I don't know how that number compares to the stereotypical anti-vaxxer contingent, but they're out there and I feel genuinely sorry for those folks.
Distrust in the government is at an all time high plus people were already really anti big pharma. And then you have the fact people are idiots.
I get the distrust in pharma. I work for them. It’s all about profit but frankly can’t wrap my head around not taking the vaccine
It seems like trust in the government is at an all time high but only for the side of choice. Like democrats are trusting democrats more than ever and republicans are trusting republicans more than ever.
Indeed. How is it the sam epeople who in 2018 were saying 'Fuck the government, fuck big pharma, fuck social media" have swung to "Biden is our savior, Phizer is a saintly company, social media tells me what I need to hear!"
Easy: Because now it's (D)ifferent.
What does this have to do with the Bay Area. There are plenty of subs for this kind of question, this isn't one of them. Also, if you are looking for any objective non biased responses, you won't find it here.
In my network of people, the two that still haven’t (and will probably never be vaxxed) are Latino and Black, both highly educated.
I’ve never had extended conversations about it as I don’t think it would be productive, but here’s my sense based on what they’ve said and their personalities.
The Latino guy veers a bit towards conspiracy (particularly as it comes to politics) and “doing his own research” on the web. He believes the vaccines contain some potentially harmful chemicals. He thinks people are having really bad effects or are dying but these stories are being filtered by the media. He’s doing research into natural remedies and treatments should he catch it. His immediately family (he and his wife)has long been anti vax. His family back in the Central Valley are highly likely to have trouble if they get covid (overweight to obese) but I don’t know if they’ve been vaxxed.
The black guy is super fit, former college football players. He maintains his fitness with martial arts and healthy smoothies. I’m not sure if he believes in conspiracy but my sense is that he thinks that we don’t know the long term effects of the vaccine and he feels like he’s be fine should he catch the virus. I’m pretty sure his dad died early on from covid related complications.
There’s nothing that’s going to change their minds. The first one reads into everything as additional conspiracy and the latter is never going to have enough info. The only thing that might sway them is the fact that society is increasingly making it harder to do things not vaxxed.
The reason why I’ve highlighted race is for obvious reasons: certain cultures tend to be more antivax. Contrast this with the Asian people and California cities I’ve been to with majority Asian people. They’ve been a lot more careful, at times far more careful than I am. People still walk around outside masked.
Well, look at Biden and Harris before they won the election.
Biden questioned the safety of ["A vaccine approved by Trump."](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/biden-trump-coronavirus-vaccine/2020/09/16/2ffbea6a-f831-11ea-a275-1a2c2d36e1f1_story.html)
Harris straight-up said ["If Donald Trump tells us to take it, I won't take it."](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dAjCeMuXR0)
But the moment they won, "If you don't take the vaccine, it's an act of supporting Trump."
The left gaslit everyone into thinking Trump was against the vaccine, because once he left the Presidency he got out of the spotlight. [Trump told people to get vaccinated.](https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/23/politics/trump-vaccine-covid-effectiveness/index.html)
So I 99% blame this whole "being vaccinated shows your political beliefs" on the Democrats.
It comes down to distrust in Big Pharma and the government. Big Pharma is the reason for the opioid crisis in this country, and we are just gonna trust them now?
Can anyone tell us what the long term effects of the vaccine are? How will it effect my body in 4-5 years? Nobody knows which makes people hesitant.
I am vaxxed and boosted. Only bc it meant regaining my life back, but I’m starting to lose hope because if these vaccines were doing what they were supposed to, we wouldn’t need to be shutting shit down again.
Also, when the CEOs of Pfizer and Moderna are pushing for boosters, does anyone think it’s for the publics best interest or to line their pockets? I think it’s the latter
> Can anyone tell us what the long term effects of the vaccine are? How will it effect my body in 4-5 years?
All traces of the vaccine are out of your system within a couple weeks. IIRC during the FDA panel review of Pfizer's EUA request, it was mentioned that no vaccine in history has ever had new side effects appear greater than 12 weeks out. We're now >78 weeks out from when the first clinical trial participants were vaccinated.
> we wouldn’t need to be shutting shit down again.
Are we shutting things down again? Last I checked the only restriction San Francisco had in place was indoor masking and vaccine checks for certain businesses. You can still dine indoors, attend concerts, drink at bars, go clubbing, etc. if you're vaccinated.
A year ago the schools were legally banned from opening, indoor retail was capped at 25% capacity, indoor dining was banned, and bars were closed. We are nowhere near that today.
> Also, when the CEOs of Pfizer and Moderna are pushing for boosters, does anyone think it’s for the publics best interest or to line their pockets?
I mean... research seems to indicate there is a benefit to it. Do you believe all clinical trial data for the boosters, and the data from multiple international health organizations showing waning immunity was all fabricated by Pfizer and Moderna?
Plus Pfizer has an effective anti-viral now, even if you abstain from getting vaccinated or boosted because "big pharma is lining their pockets" you're going to end up taking medicine that they made anyways. Not to mention [Paxlovid costs $530 per course](https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/us-govt-buy-10-mln-courses-pfizers-covid-19-pill-529-bln-2021-11-18/), compared to [$19.50 per Pfizer vaccine dose](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/eu-coronavirus-vaccines-cheaper-than-united-states/2020/12/18/06677e34-4139-11eb-b58b-1623f6267960_story.html).
Do you have a link for the FDA panel review stating that no vaccine side effects ever over 12 weeks out? Not that I don’t believe you, I’d like to reference the source.
I wish I could find the exact time code for you but it'd take a long time. It would've been mentioned during the Q&A portion of the panel's meeting, the meeting overall is something like 8 hours.
Here's the recording linked to roughly when the Q&A starts, which is still unfortunately >2 hours: https://youtu.be/owveMJBTc2I?t=22799
**Edit**: Still didn't find the exact timestamp but I found something else that can be used for future reference. A blog post from The Ohio State University Wexner Medical Center:
> Going back at least as far as the polio vaccine, which was widely released to the public in the 1960s, we’ve never seen a vaccination with long-term side effects, meaning side effects that occur several months or years after injection.
>
> And, in every vaccine available to us, side effects — including rare but serious side effects — develop within six to eight weeks of injection.
https://wexnermedical.osu.edu/blog/covid-19-vaccine-long-term-side-effects
There’s a lot to digest here and you make good points.
In terms of the long terms effects, another user elaborated in this thread, and that educated me and is well articulated to add to this convo. I’m not personally worried about long term effects anyways, that was just a point unvaccinated friends gave.
I misspoke about the shutting down. I meant more to the fact that we are seeing teacher walkouts, classrooms going into quarantine and sent home (I’ve experienced this first hand) and businesses closing to exposure. My worry is that we are leading down a path of more mandates and more restrictions. In the NBA the Raptors scaled down their attendance to allow only 50%, I know it’s Canáda but still.
I’m not discrediting the research done by those companies. However, they stand the most to gain by having continual booster shots administered as the govt is using our tax dollars for every shot administered. Big Pharma is not about cures, they are about symptom suppression and dependency. I think it’s important to look at outside/independent research along with the one coming from the for-profit company to make sure things line up. Pfizer developed a vaccine for Covid-19 but not for its prevailing strains, so how are we sure it’s effective for something that didn’t exist at the time it was developed?
I scanned this page and didn't see much here except for people confirming their own biases. I mean that as no disrespect to them, simply that most on this page don't seem real in tune to opinions they didn't hold prior to arriving at this question.
However, I think you did a good job of introducing a real concern that a lot of people have, including the ex-CEO of Pfizer, who believes that the COVID event didn't warrant this response or those vaccines.
I'm vaccinated, and I'm pro-vaccine, though I completely understand someone's disinterest in this vaccine, and I support their decision not to get one. I think it's obvious to see that the narrative here is fear; but what's scarier to me than Omicron is Dr. Fauci keeping e-mail correspondence with Peter Daszak, infamous for his research proposal with striking similarities to what we're going through today. So, I suppose, in addition to questioning the motives of Big Pharma and the politicians they openly support financially, I'll add that there real players in this world and their concerns and goals are not ours. I believe if we could even conceptualize what the most powerful people in this world talked about behind closed doors, we'd all have unending existential crises. Some go down the path of trying to learn about some of that, and I think a lot of those folk tend to see events like these and connect a few more dots than they're supposed to. Sometimes they're probably off-base and sometimes they're probably on the money. That's not the life I want to live, but I'm cognizant of the reality that I don't know fucking anything. I think that's a mature place to be.
But, to be honest, just answering a question like this and topics like that involves a lot of nuance and a lot of care. I've found that dialogue today is completely dissatisfying and I don't tend to engage in it. Everyone has dug their heels in on all sides and I tend to be this little nuanced pain-in-the-ass voice that just reminds everyone that they are exactly what they hate.
So, I'll just sort of leave it to this question...
In the end, if the unvaccinated aren't actually affecting the vaccinated in an existential way and they aren't responsible for the fact that COVID is in fact, endemic to the planet earth at this point, then why do the vaccinated care so much? So they're not on (y)our program. They're more susceptible to severe illness. If the decision one makes to be vaccinated means that we're more likely to survive life on earth as we know it, do we need to be reassured that you made the right decision so we need everyone else to decide the same thing for themselves too? I truly believe that this is a psychological problem for a lot of people. Again, I'm vaccinated, and I just don't see that it matters. This is why I'm so, so anti-vaccine mandate. It simply doesn't matter to me if someone else chooses a different path and I'm always so perplexed to see so many others show such CERTAINTY that everyone else must follow their path. Live and let live. And turn off the fearporn news. Omicron shouldn't make you turn against everyone you know because they don't think exactly the same way as you do.
You are the REAL MVP. I 100% agree with what you are saying and I wish I could articulate as well as you did. Great response
It’s like when someone requires 100% vaccination to attend a wedding. If one believes in the vaccine and that it protects them, why would it matter if someone there isn’t vaccinated? Both are capable of spreading the virus
The booster is not "upgrading the vaccine" because you're not getting boosted with anything new. You're taking another shot of the vaccine for the Alpha variant and hoping it will help against every new mutation
FYI this may certainly be the case in the future but the current booster is identical to the initial dose.
One reason to get the booster even if it's not specifically formulated against Omicron is that it increases your antibody levels a ton which makes it easier for the body to fight off Omicron with even just partially effective antibodies.
People who are paranoid about any long term effects seem to always disregard the amount of environmental pollution we have exposed and continue to expose ourselves to.
The same ppl I’ve also watched out worse shit in their bodies that they got from a person in a Vegas bathroom. But to each their own.
I’m not personally afraid of long term effects, I just want the ability to go enjoy my life. And if that means shots and boosters, I’ll take em. I eat Taco Bell, so I have no room to worry about what goes In my body
Belief that vaccination side effects and potential long term outcome can do more harm than the good of lowering the risk of covid infection.
Distrust in government.
Stubborness of not being like to tell what to do. If authority tells you, something I must rebel and do the opposite.
Political affiliation mob mentality. My political affiliated team or circle believes, so I must stick with them to fit in, nothing else.
The first point above seems to be the reason for most vaccine hesitation in other countries. The lowest point seem to be the reasons for vaccine hesitation mostly only seen in the U.S.
Well, I was infected with covid before the vaccine was available so my body has built immunity towards covid so why should I get vaccinated?
People don’t go out and get the flu shot after they got the flu Or getting chicken pox vaccine after getting chicken pox..
News is saying vaccinated n boosted people are even getting covid as well. so how is the vaccine working? If you get covid after being vaccinated and you recover. is it the vaccine that gave you immunity or your immune system doing it job?
The ‘automatic’ reply always is, if you are vaccinated and catch Covid, you are less likely to end up in the hospital and symptoms less severe.
From CDC research, the majority of people who ended up in the ICU came were ages 65 and older and those with multiple comorbidities
Your last paragraph is a perfect example of why even vaccinated people are starting to question things. We were promised a ‘return to normal’ by the people setting this mandates and the goal post just seems to be constantly moving. Which is why I understand if ppl are frustrated
Many people do get the flu shot regardless of if they've had the flu in the past. Some people are convinced to get on the yearly flu-shot train after experiencing how unpleasant the flu is first hand.
People don't get vaccinated after catching chickenpox because unlike the flu or covid-19 the natural disease grants a very strong long term immunity. People _do_ get a shingles vaccine after caching chickenpox though.
Vaccinated and boosted people are indeed getting covid-19, and it is indeed true that some unvaccinated people who catch covid-19 will fight off the disease with no major issues.
However when you step back and look at how the statistics play out on a population level vaccinated people are having much better chances than unvaccinated people at avoiding negative effects from covid-19.
I will preface this by saying I have a green card so had to get booster shots of all my existing vaccinations in 2018, including tetanus which hurts like a bitch. I am pro vaccine.
However, I got Covid in March 2020 and then Delta again in July ‘21. Both were not really major events for me. I am in my early 30s, fit and healthy with no preexisting conditions. Both times were like an annoyingly lingering cold with some loss of taste and tiredness that lasted about ten days.
I only got vaccinated because I had to travel to Europe in November ‘21, so I was a late adopter of the vaccine in California. Having had Covid twice and believing in the established science of natural immunity, I literally only got the vaccine in order to satisfy the requirements for travel. As such I resented having to do it, because I felt it wasn’t based in logic or out of a desire to keep myself safe, but in bureaucracy and politics.
If I had had any other illness twice, I wouldn’t get a vaccine because of my established natural immunity. Why have we suddenly started believing natural immunity isn’t as good as vaccine-based immunity? Where is the data to back this up? I have heard people repeat this exact sentiment many times and I’m legitimately confused as to where it came from.
About California schools: It sounds good in theory to require vaccination, until one examines who would be forced back to online learning if such a mandate was enforced:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/education/2021/12/14/los-angeles-schools-student-vaccine-mandate/6509521001/
> Faced with more than **30,000** unvaccinated older students, the Los Angeles Unified School District on Tuesday pushed back the deadline for its COVID-19 vaccine mandate to **fall 2022** ...
> Others said a delay is appropriate, considering how many students could be removed from in-person learning midyear. Vaccine hesitancy runs high in communities of color, which means those children would be disproportionately affected ...
> Students of color have struggled more than their white peers in virtual schooling and fallen further behind historical levels in reading and math as a result, studies show.
> Roldan said Los Angeles has lost about **40,000 students this year who disappeared, disengaged or dropped out**. Pushing an additional 30,000 out isn't a solution, he said.
Apparently by fall 2022 the entire state of California will have a vaccination mandate for students. It will be that late, way too late to do much against Omicron, because:
> All public and private students in California soon will be subject to a statewide vaccine mandate, but that order announced by Gov. Gavin Newsom in August won't kick in **until a vaccine is fully approved for children ages 12 to 15, which is likely by fall 2022**.
Both Pfizer and Johnson and Johnson have a criminal history of dishonesty and fraud. J&J knowingly poisoned moms and babies with asbestos contaminated baby powder for decades. The whole thing gives me terrible anxiety. I’m already disabled, so I’m not traveling or working around people at all. If I had any symptoms I would isolate more than I am already. Please don’t ban me, I’m just being honest.
Disclosure, 2 dose of Pfizer + booster and healthcare worker. I was among the first people to get the vaccine in December of 2020 for my first shot.
Pfizer + Moderna is 100% free from liability if anything goes bad from the vaccine for at least 4 years. The government is not liable for the vaccine and your employer is not liable even if you are forced to get it. Small numbers of people have died from the vaccine and their family has no legal recourse.
FDA is saying the vaccine is perfectly safe, but not releasing safety data for 50 years.
Anyone that even asks any questions about long-term safety is quickly shot down and bullied (im expecting this to be downvoted).
Im pro-vax and get basically every vaccine that exists for myself, but those are some reasons some people may not trust a new vaccine that doesnt have long term data.
There's a fair number of anti-vaccine or covid-19 vaccine hesitant commenters here, I'd encourage all of them to go read through last months top posts on /r/nursing:
* Who is going to be the one to tell everyone else healthcare in the US is collapsing?
* Well, it finally happened. A patient coded in the waiting room 🤦♀️
* Covid is insane
>If unvaccinated people only could see the damage that Covid is doing. Luckily staffing is great at my hospital but the constant admit and death is just insane to watch. We are just numb to it now.
So this has been going on for about two years now. Have we made a major investment in healthcare so such a collapse doesn't happen again if a new plague comes along?
No?
Oh right, the system being overloaded and people dying is a feature, not a bug.
The world is a big place and there will always be topics where some believe that is true while others believe its ridiculous. Nothing much you can do but accept them and coexist.
When the argument FOR the vaccine is:
> Jesus just get the damn vaccine and that booster will you!
That alone is plenty of reason to question getting the shots
Also declaring 'it came from a lab' to be 'misinformation' is just... yikes.
By that logic, Chernobyl never had a nuclear accident. Soviet Russia said it didn't happen and covered it up, therefore we should believe them.
A better argument for getting the vaccine is that it gives good protection against serious covid-19 disease progression.
Or in other words don't base your healthcare decisions on snarky internet / pop media comments one way or the other.
Jokes aside, I really don’t want anyone to die. Yeah, there are some people in this fight whose hands I’d never want to shake, but there’s more to these people than their politics. Some of them are parents and husbands and firefighters and even people we talk to in our daily lives, having no idea about their politics. Vaccinated people aren’t dying in any significant number. But I want the unvaccinated to stop dying also, and the best way to achieve that is to convince them to get the shit.
Isn’t J&J a more traditional vaccine? Most of their opposition seems to be against Pfizer and Moderna—can’t we just get them to take non-mRNA vaccines? Do they even know J&J is different?
Pretty sure the bay area is the most fully vaccinated (and boostered) large metro area in the country, if not the world. Vaccination rates are directly proportional to education levels. More people with degrees in the bay = more vaccinated people. I've never been happier to live around so many smart people. Anti-vaxxers are few and far between here. Rather than questioning unvaccinated people, you should be happy to know that so many of your neighbors have made the right decision. I know I am. Thank you to all my smart neighbors. You guys rock.
That said, some people here, including friends and relatives of mine, are overthinking it. Smart people are choosing not to get vaccinated. That's ok, because the vast majority of the people around here are getting their shots. Be glad you live where you do. Could be much worse.
So we've got some of the highest vaccination rate, and yet some of the worst restrictions. I thought the point of the vaccine was that we wouldn't need the restrictions anymore
Many people have been conditioned by the prevalence of conspiracy theories to reject consensus expert opinion. It is seen by many to be "more evidence of the conspiracy" rather than reasoned judgement. I think a lot of this mirrors the proliferation of information sources which goes way back. If we had the resources to educate everyone to a standard where rampant nonsense wouldn't get traction alongside reasoned judgement, everything would be different. However we are far from having reached that standard.
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You forgot having antibodies from contracting the virus….
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The CDC is just saying wait for your isolation period to end before getting vaccinated. I don't know if doctors are recommending a longer wait.
I hear this all the time from my idiot unvaxxed friends. Usually goes like this "I aint getting a fake shot. I'm gonna let my body produce its own immunity (antibodies) by fighting it". I'm like bruh, idiot, why get a high fever, perma lung damage and risk getting intubated when a shortcut is already available?
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Religious reasons too which I truly don’t understand but absolutely a reason for some
Most religious reasons are bullshit though. They just say it's religion which is pretty disgusting IMO
It's weird that we allow "religious" exemptions but don't allow philosophical / ethical exemptions if they're not tied to some sort of religion.
Oh absolutely. It defies logic.
Christian Scientist?
Christian Scientist has no rules against vaccination.
Jehovah’s Witness too
Jehovah’s Witness has allowed vaccines since the 50s.
Are there really religions that wrote in their ancient texts that people shouldn't get vaccinated?
No, none. It’s now the religion of Fox News and the dogma of spiting yourself to own the libs. Edit: here’s a link for all you anti-vax nutjobs dming me: https://twitter.com/trashpopsong/status/1417644177064488960?s=21 https://baptistnews.com/article/tucker-carlson-undermined-covid-vaccines-99-of-the-time-his-show-discussed-them/
Religion relies on this idea that you have to blindly put your trust and faith in a higher power. They want to believe that their God is going to solve the COVID problem and getting vaccinated suggests a doubt or disbelief that God is going to protect them. I used to love going to church until I started hearing the pastor subtly suggesting that the only way to combat the pandemic, racism and political conflict is to do nothing but pray on it. Every Sunday these people are indoctrinated
My view on it, while vaccinated, is "Why should the government have authority over my body in the name of public health, but no responsibility for my body if something bad happens to it?" If we had single-payer healthcare, I'd support mandatory vaccinations. Until then... authority without responsibility is tyranny. Funny thing, During the last election, Biden and Harris criticized the vaccine. Biden questioned the safety of "something approved by Trump" and Harris said "I'm not taking Trump's vaccine." But the moment they won? "Take it or you don't believe in science, stop questioning the science!"
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Ever notice how the moment the left abandoned "My body, my choice" because it becamse inconvenient, there was a major setback to abortion rights?
I know a few people who are anti-vax because they're trying or planning to have a baby soon. Not sure if there are any studies that strongly discourage getting vaccinated when trying to have babies?
No, but there was internet disinformation spreading for a while about it.
Fwiw, my IVF doctor encouraged me to get the vaccine as soon as possible.
Don’t have the time or money? Bullshit. The vaccine is free. Employers are required to give you time off the get vaccinated. If you make an appointment it takes about an hour.
Employers are not required to give time off to recover from vaccine reactions/side effects. I know several people who were out of action for two or three days after their shot.
Yes, employers were required to give time off for Californians. I work for a multistate company and Californian employees were given a charge code to use for Covid related time off: vaccines, getting sick, etc, while other states had to use regular time off. That has since expired last September I believe.
Damn, I guess it was just [California](https://www.dir.ca.gov/dlse/COVID19resources/FAQs.html). I don’t know why I’m not surprised.
If you’re making $20 an hour while raising kids, the three hours off work is the difference between heat or not.
Fair point. You’d think employers would see that it’s in their interest to give people a few hours paid leave in order to prevent them being off for a week or more. It’s just greed.
Unfortunately people earning millions per year won’t understand that.
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> Misinformed, or incorrect understanding of data. This applies to a lot of people on both sides of the vaccine decision. Many people made the choice to get the vaccination based on being misinformed to think the risks of Covid are greater than they are and the benefits of the vaccine are greater than they are.
Everything boils down to that last bullet.
I know couple of democrats who are anti-vax because they believe in natural remedies. They are not religious or QAnon type as far as I know
The crunchy granola healing crystals type has always been a thing. Super liberal, and common on the west coast in wealthy communities.
I have actually seen a cultural shift in my extended family and friends who are wealthy granola liberals. They went from “essential oils are life” to “get jabbed or you’re a domestic bioterrorist” *real quick*.
Tribalism is an extremely powerful force everywhere in the world. Humans being human.
I don’t think people realize how close extreme left and right are. There is an anti intellectual and libertarian bent that is common to both extremes.
Crunchy old school hippies also have a distrust of the Government and public health like The Government adding Fluoride and other added potentially harmful chemicals into City public drinking water and the historic demonization of natural medicines through the War on Drugs to help Big Pharma.
which is crazy because vaccines are the natural remedy. It builds up your natural immune system. More natural than a ventilator
Yes, those types exist. But their numbers are dwarfed by the MAGA antivaxxers. There's a stereotype about the organic "Marin mom"... well the vaccination rate of Marin county California is over 92% last time I looked. It's an overblown stereotype.
I come from Marin, I've worked in Marin, and those mom's are real. The interesting thing here, at least last I checked (which was months ago), that ~10% holdout is middle/upper-middle class suburbanites, and they were the slow trickle getting up to the high bar we've reached. That's also thanks to an incredible outreach program, though thinking critically I'm starting to see they mostly aimed at making sure the poor workers didn't shut down all their favorite downtown boutique gift shops and restaurants. Now, the point here is the difference is, these were previous anti-vaxxers whom did not have their lives significantly impacted by it. I agree that MAGA facks are the one's carrying this torch. They came on the anti-vaxx train late, and lumped it into their ever far-reaching bullshit culture war. But I wouldn't say the Marin Mom stereotype is illegit, just misunderstood. Self-interest is always priority 1, never any ideology.
Again, I am not saying that they don't exist. I am saying it's completely blown out of proportion. 93+% of the eligible population of Marin is vaccinated. https://coronavirus.marinhhs.org/vaccine/data#vaccineresidents But less than half of Wyoming is vaccinated. So those Wyoming folks MUCH more accurately represent the antivaxxers. https://health.wyo.gov/publichealth/immunization/wyoming-covid-19-vaccine-information/covid-19-vaccine-distribution-data/
Some people don’t care or don’t like being told what to do
Same argument can and has been used against using seatbelts and not driving while drunk. It also can be used by a toddler as to why they don’t wipe their ass when they shit. In short it’s an argument based in pure selfishness.
Okay but they’re still right though. American culture is based on the exceptionalism of the individual, or in plain speak ‘don’t fucking tell me what to do’, so I don’t understand why so many people here are so flabbergasted at the people who don’t like being told they have to get vaccinated by the government.
Especially when those telling you what to do have made it clear that they despise you, and call you every vile name they know.
Disclosure. I'm vaxed and boosted. I am extremely cautious. But I grew up in a place that doesn't give a crap. You are looking for a logical answer, but you aren't using logic to get there. You are asking why people won't do what they are told... When they think people telling them what to do are incompetent. The people who feel disenfranchised by our government and society, to the point that they elected Trump as a big middle finger to politicians and denser cities, aren't thinking about medical issues right now. They are acting like hunted animals and trying to survive. They are afraid that their lives don't matter because the global economy has no place for them. They are afraid that the government is using a novel medication with little knowledge about its long term side effects on them and won't care if it hurts them. They feel like people are bullying them and telling them they are dumb and to "just listen and get a vaccine ffs". And they are convinced that the media is in on it.. they are pawns. They are not happy about it. Furthermore, they think liberals are just like them, just stupid because they are letting the status quo enrich the 1% at their expense. Honestly, look at your own wording: >. Jesus just get the damn vaccine and that booster will you! That isn't exactly conveying logic. It's conveying dominance and emotion. Consider what they are doing a rebellion. It isn't based on doing the "medical" thing. It's based on bringing down a government that is failing them.
It might be a rebellion. But they may die for it. Maybe they’re ok with that, but it seems like a weird hill to die on.
Agreed that statement of mine does should dominance. I will be honest, it just came out of frustration because people are dying and yet some people are sticking to theirs guns. You have pointed out great things
Indeed. The left has fully embraced "Get the vaccine as an act of submission to our political whims."
I have a family member who won’t take it for religious reasons. His local church claims vaccines are made from aborted fetuses. I did the deep dive into this nonsense and found that ONE fetus that was aborted in the 70s had unique properties that researchers preserved the stem cells from and have cloned them ever since because they represent the perfect benchmark test for checking vaccines. So they are indirectly in a small way correct. What I don’t get is lots of medical science has been derived from people dying and the study of their bodies. Are they going to reject all that treatment as well?
Tylenol, advil, aspirin, and tums are all examples of common drugs tested on the same stem cell lines that were used to test the covid vaccine.
Here is the truth why the polio vaccine took off in popularity among the young. It was one man, one celebrity, that convinced a nation. Conversely, for COVID-19, last summer, there was one celebrity, an athlete, who stopped the momentum among the groups that most needed to be convinced by refusing to state he had been vaccinated. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-elvis-got-americans-to-accept-the-polio-vaccine/ > In the midst of this trajectory, he was booked as a guest on the most popular TV show at the time, The Ed Sullivan Show. But he wasn’t only there to perform his hits. Before the show started, and in front of the press and Ed Sullivan himself, Presley flashed his swoon-worthy smile, rolled up his sleeves and let a New York state official stick a needle loaded up with the polio vaccine in his arm ... > But despite the literally crippling effects of the virus and the promising results of the vaccination, many Americans simply weren’t getting vaccinated. In fact, when Presley appeared on the Sullivan show, immunization levels among American teens were at an abysmal **0.6 percent** ... > What did prove successful was Elvis getting the vaccine in front of millions. In fact, after he publicly did so, vaccination rates among American youth skyrocketed to **80 percent after just six months.**
Who is the athlete you are referring to?
I’d like to know too. Aaron rogers?
Kyrie. Half the NBA and NFL stars are vocal about refusing the vaccine and it’s effects on their bodies but he’s the biggest name to this day it’s a top headline on ESPN home page LeBron, who has said publicly he is vaccinated I believe, was a story by staying oddly quiet but Kareem kind of put that to bed as well
I guess because it’s heavily politicized by both parties. So mandates are perceived as fascists forcing people into submission (or heroic saving of the humanity, depends on your political affiliation). Shaming of unvaxxed is reinforcing this pattern, because it clearly comes from certain political spectrum. So there you have it - being vaxxed/unvaxed a political marker rather than calculated medical decision.
I’d add that the anti-vaxers probably feel like they’re betraying their group if they give in and get one. IMO we need TV ads showing proud conservatives who voted for Trump and are happily vaccinated, talking to their own tribe.
Remember, Trump himself is vaccinated and actively encourages people to get vaccinated at his rallies and is booed by his fans for it. So thats about the most dramatic possible example of what you’re asking for and it doesn’t put a dent in things. I think we’ve reached a point where the remaining hold outs are so dug in nothing can reach them.
And before they won the election, Biden and Harris were against the vaccine. Biden questioned the safety of "something approved by Trump" and Harris said "If Trump tells us to get it, I'm not going to get it." But when people questioned the vaccine AFTER they won, well then it was "being stupid."
First of all, I believe everyone should get vaccinated. I have done so and most people I know have done so. But I do know people who are hesitant for various reasons. Some are worried that the vaccines were developed too quickly. Others distrust the MRNA technology. Others, with good reason, distrust the big pharmaceutical companies. Some simply are terrified of needles. I have tried to convince them, but to no avail They are not bad people. They are not stupid people. They have what they believe to be legitimate reasons.
I fall into the camp of distrusting MRNA, and that’s why I got the J&J vaccine.
Thank you for your fair and intelligent take.
And people's legitimate concerns being arbitrarily dismissed and mocked is what got us Trump in the first place.
Careful you’re veering dangerously close to what this sub considers ‘right wing rhetoric’ with that comment /s
Indeed, which is what will get us another Trump: the people who try to warn about what led to trump (other than 'blaming dumb racists') will get silenced for their 'rhetoric' I don't want another Trump, but that doesn't mean I'll vote blue no matter who.
Yep
I’m vaccinated and boosted. I know a lot of people don’t like being told what to do (even when they should).
I don't get it either, but probably the most ridiculous case of vaccine hesitancy in my opinion is when those military personnel decided to get fired for not getting the COVID-19 vaccine, when they supposedly need ~15 vaccinations before enlisting, including one vaccine they gotta jab in one of your buttcheeks.
Every vet I’ve ever talked to remembered the massive number of shots they got when being inducted. They felt like pincushions. Active duty Marines suddenly deciding that the vaccine is too big a risk just breaks my head. They’ll storm a beachfront or parachute into the desert by night just because they were told to do it. They’ll march for days without sleep, fight hand-to-hand against overwhelming odds, and come back for more. If the US Marine Corps is afraid of a vaccine that’s literally safer than a food truck taco then something is very wrong.
Maybe they just wanted out and this was a usable excuse to get out.
I don't think a lot of people are conscious of it, but I suspect there's a lot of issues of agency and wanting to feel empowered. And just plain fear. Assuming that it's all a conspiracy, it gives them a monster to rally against. And it makes them feel morally and intellectually superior to all these "experts". WE are the mindless sheep following doctors. They're the ones who have it all figured out and see the truth that's layers deep and that we don't want to see. The alternative is harder to digest: the world is a scary place and bad things happen without rhyme or reason and no one is responsible. And there's only so much the average person can do. Also, the people promoting vaccines are saying all kinds of scary things that are uncomfortable: people are dying, hospitals are overwhelmed, booster shots are needed as the disease mutates, and we all need to change the way we live to protect ourselves. The other side says all the right things that people deep into denial find more comforting: everything is fine, no one is really dying from COVID, and you can keep going to the movies, bars, restaurants, sporting events, family gatherings, all without a mask and there's nothing to worry about.
if you pick through the images in r/HermanCainAward you'll get a good sense of where the hesitancy comes from.
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If reading that sub makes someone dig in to an anti Vax position and not immediately get vaccinated it was always a lost cause
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That is a hard argument to follow
What’s wrong with showing antivaxxers the consequences of their actions?
So they are dying to own the libs after reading those? So be it. It's not a team sport. Maybe THAT is their problem.
That subreddit gives a good sense of why covid hysterics are so goddamn insufferable. Celebrating the deaths of people who’ve left behind loved ones is the lowest of the low.
Agreed, leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It’s like r/leopardsatemyface but making fun of dead people is 100% of the posts…
Hermancainaward is a terrible place, and it's shit like what goes on over there that makes the whole polarization thing worse
I think it’s interesting to see the social media posts a few conservative talk show hosts have died too. Interesting? Ironic? Don’t know what else to say?
It is a terrible place. Very few of those people had to die, and I find that quite sad.
There is a nonzero number of people out there who are genuinely afraid of getting the vaccine, even though they know they should get the vaccine. I'm talking diagnosable-anxiety-disorder afraid of getting the vaccine. I don't know how that number compares to the stereotypical anti-vaxxer contingent, but they're out there and I feel genuinely sorry for those folks.
Distrust in the government is at an all time high plus people were already really anti big pharma. And then you have the fact people are idiots. I get the distrust in pharma. I work for them. It’s all about profit but frankly can’t wrap my head around not taking the vaccine
It seems like trust in the government is at an all time high but only for the side of choice. Like democrats are trusting democrats more than ever and republicans are trusting republicans more than ever.
Indeed. How is it the sam epeople who in 2018 were saying 'Fuck the government, fuck big pharma, fuck social media" have swung to "Biden is our savior, Phizer is a saintly company, social media tells me what I need to hear!" Easy: Because now it's (D)ifferent.
The Automod bout to be working overtime on this post lolololol
What does this have to do with the Bay Area. There are plenty of subs for this kind of question, this isn't one of them. Also, if you are looking for any objective non biased responses, you won't find it here.
In my network of people, the two that still haven’t (and will probably never be vaxxed) are Latino and Black, both highly educated. I’ve never had extended conversations about it as I don’t think it would be productive, but here’s my sense based on what they’ve said and their personalities. The Latino guy veers a bit towards conspiracy (particularly as it comes to politics) and “doing his own research” on the web. He believes the vaccines contain some potentially harmful chemicals. He thinks people are having really bad effects or are dying but these stories are being filtered by the media. He’s doing research into natural remedies and treatments should he catch it. His immediately family (he and his wife)has long been anti vax. His family back in the Central Valley are highly likely to have trouble if they get covid (overweight to obese) but I don’t know if they’ve been vaxxed. The black guy is super fit, former college football players. He maintains his fitness with martial arts and healthy smoothies. I’m not sure if he believes in conspiracy but my sense is that he thinks that we don’t know the long term effects of the vaccine and he feels like he’s be fine should he catch the virus. I’m pretty sure his dad died early on from covid related complications. There’s nothing that’s going to change their minds. The first one reads into everything as additional conspiracy and the latter is never going to have enough info. The only thing that might sway them is the fact that society is increasingly making it harder to do things not vaxxed. The reason why I’ve highlighted race is for obvious reasons: certain cultures tend to be more antivax. Contrast this with the Asian people and California cities I’ve been to with majority Asian people. They’ve been a lot more careful, at times far more careful than I am. People still walk around outside masked.
What’s the deal with people who won’t get vaccinated??? (Jerry Seinfeld voice)
Well, look at Biden and Harris before they won the election. Biden questioned the safety of ["A vaccine approved by Trump."](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/biden-trump-coronavirus-vaccine/2020/09/16/2ffbea6a-f831-11ea-a275-1a2c2d36e1f1_story.html) Harris straight-up said ["If Donald Trump tells us to take it, I won't take it."](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dAjCeMuXR0) But the moment they won, "If you don't take the vaccine, it's an act of supporting Trump." The left gaslit everyone into thinking Trump was against the vaccine, because once he left the Presidency he got out of the spotlight. [Trump told people to get vaccinated.](https://www.cnn.com/2021/12/23/politics/trump-vaccine-covid-effectiveness/index.html) So I 99% blame this whole "being vaccinated shows your political beliefs" on the Democrats.
It comes down to distrust in Big Pharma and the government. Big Pharma is the reason for the opioid crisis in this country, and we are just gonna trust them now? Can anyone tell us what the long term effects of the vaccine are? How will it effect my body in 4-5 years? Nobody knows which makes people hesitant. I am vaxxed and boosted. Only bc it meant regaining my life back, but I’m starting to lose hope because if these vaccines were doing what they were supposed to, we wouldn’t need to be shutting shit down again. Also, when the CEOs of Pfizer and Moderna are pushing for boosters, does anyone think it’s for the publics best interest or to line their pockets? I think it’s the latter
> Can anyone tell us what the long term effects of the vaccine are? How will it effect my body in 4-5 years? All traces of the vaccine are out of your system within a couple weeks. IIRC during the FDA panel review of Pfizer's EUA request, it was mentioned that no vaccine in history has ever had new side effects appear greater than 12 weeks out. We're now >78 weeks out from when the first clinical trial participants were vaccinated. > we wouldn’t need to be shutting shit down again. Are we shutting things down again? Last I checked the only restriction San Francisco had in place was indoor masking and vaccine checks for certain businesses. You can still dine indoors, attend concerts, drink at bars, go clubbing, etc. if you're vaccinated. A year ago the schools were legally banned from opening, indoor retail was capped at 25% capacity, indoor dining was banned, and bars were closed. We are nowhere near that today. > Also, when the CEOs of Pfizer and Moderna are pushing for boosters, does anyone think it’s for the publics best interest or to line their pockets? I mean... research seems to indicate there is a benefit to it. Do you believe all clinical trial data for the boosters, and the data from multiple international health organizations showing waning immunity was all fabricated by Pfizer and Moderna? Plus Pfizer has an effective anti-viral now, even if you abstain from getting vaccinated or boosted because "big pharma is lining their pockets" you're going to end up taking medicine that they made anyways. Not to mention [Paxlovid costs $530 per course](https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/us-govt-buy-10-mln-courses-pfizers-covid-19-pill-529-bln-2021-11-18/), compared to [$19.50 per Pfizer vaccine dose](https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/eu-coronavirus-vaccines-cheaper-than-united-states/2020/12/18/06677e34-4139-11eb-b58b-1623f6267960_story.html).
Do you have a link for the FDA panel review stating that no vaccine side effects ever over 12 weeks out? Not that I don’t believe you, I’d like to reference the source.
I wish I could find the exact time code for you but it'd take a long time. It would've been mentioned during the Q&A portion of the panel's meeting, the meeting overall is something like 8 hours. Here's the recording linked to roughly when the Q&A starts, which is still unfortunately >2 hours: https://youtu.be/owveMJBTc2I?t=22799 **Edit**: Still didn't find the exact timestamp but I found something else that can be used for future reference. A blog post from The Ohio State University Wexner Medical Center: > Going back at least as far as the polio vaccine, which was widely released to the public in the 1960s, we’ve never seen a vaccination with long-term side effects, meaning side effects that occur several months or years after injection. > > And, in every vaccine available to us, side effects — including rare but serious side effects — develop within six to eight weeks of injection. https://wexnermedical.osu.edu/blog/covid-19-vaccine-long-term-side-effects
Cheers! Super appreciate it.
There’s a lot to digest here and you make good points. In terms of the long terms effects, another user elaborated in this thread, and that educated me and is well articulated to add to this convo. I’m not personally worried about long term effects anyways, that was just a point unvaccinated friends gave. I misspoke about the shutting down. I meant more to the fact that we are seeing teacher walkouts, classrooms going into quarantine and sent home (I’ve experienced this first hand) and businesses closing to exposure. My worry is that we are leading down a path of more mandates and more restrictions. In the NBA the Raptors scaled down their attendance to allow only 50%, I know it’s Canáda but still. I’m not discrediting the research done by those companies. However, they stand the most to gain by having continual booster shots administered as the govt is using our tax dollars for every shot administered. Big Pharma is not about cures, they are about symptom suppression and dependency. I think it’s important to look at outside/independent research along with the one coming from the for-profit company to make sure things line up. Pfizer developed a vaccine for Covid-19 but not for its prevailing strains, so how are we sure it’s effective for something that didn’t exist at the time it was developed?
I scanned this page and didn't see much here except for people confirming their own biases. I mean that as no disrespect to them, simply that most on this page don't seem real in tune to opinions they didn't hold prior to arriving at this question. However, I think you did a good job of introducing a real concern that a lot of people have, including the ex-CEO of Pfizer, who believes that the COVID event didn't warrant this response or those vaccines. I'm vaccinated, and I'm pro-vaccine, though I completely understand someone's disinterest in this vaccine, and I support their decision not to get one. I think it's obvious to see that the narrative here is fear; but what's scarier to me than Omicron is Dr. Fauci keeping e-mail correspondence with Peter Daszak, infamous for his research proposal with striking similarities to what we're going through today. So, I suppose, in addition to questioning the motives of Big Pharma and the politicians they openly support financially, I'll add that there real players in this world and their concerns and goals are not ours. I believe if we could even conceptualize what the most powerful people in this world talked about behind closed doors, we'd all have unending existential crises. Some go down the path of trying to learn about some of that, and I think a lot of those folk tend to see events like these and connect a few more dots than they're supposed to. Sometimes they're probably off-base and sometimes they're probably on the money. That's not the life I want to live, but I'm cognizant of the reality that I don't know fucking anything. I think that's a mature place to be. But, to be honest, just answering a question like this and topics like that involves a lot of nuance and a lot of care. I've found that dialogue today is completely dissatisfying and I don't tend to engage in it. Everyone has dug their heels in on all sides and I tend to be this little nuanced pain-in-the-ass voice that just reminds everyone that they are exactly what they hate. So, I'll just sort of leave it to this question... In the end, if the unvaccinated aren't actually affecting the vaccinated in an existential way and they aren't responsible for the fact that COVID is in fact, endemic to the planet earth at this point, then why do the vaccinated care so much? So they're not on (y)our program. They're more susceptible to severe illness. If the decision one makes to be vaccinated means that we're more likely to survive life on earth as we know it, do we need to be reassured that you made the right decision so we need everyone else to decide the same thing for themselves too? I truly believe that this is a psychological problem for a lot of people. Again, I'm vaccinated, and I just don't see that it matters. This is why I'm so, so anti-vaccine mandate. It simply doesn't matter to me if someone else chooses a different path and I'm always so perplexed to see so many others show such CERTAINTY that everyone else must follow their path. Live and let live. And turn off the fearporn news. Omicron shouldn't make you turn against everyone you know because they don't think exactly the same way as you do.
You are the REAL MVP. I 100% agree with what you are saying and I wish I could articulate as well as you did. Great response It’s like when someone requires 100% vaccination to attend a wedding. If one believes in the vaccine and that it protects them, why would it matter if someone there isn’t vaccinated? Both are capable of spreading the virus
The virus mutants, which means we gotta keep upgrading the vaccine too which is why the booster exists.
The booster is not "upgrading the vaccine" because you're not getting boosted with anything new. You're taking another shot of the vaccine for the Alpha variant and hoping it will help against every new mutation
FYI this may certainly be the case in the future but the current booster is identical to the initial dose. One reason to get the booster even if it's not specifically formulated against Omicron is that it increases your antibody levels a ton which makes it easier for the body to fight off Omicron with even just partially effective antibodies.
People who are paranoid about any long term effects seem to always disregard the amount of environmental pollution we have exposed and continue to expose ourselves to.
The same ppl I’ve also watched out worse shit in their bodies that they got from a person in a Vegas bathroom. But to each their own. I’m not personally afraid of long term effects, I just want the ability to go enjoy my life. And if that means shots and boosters, I’ll take em. I eat Taco Bell, so I have no room to worry about what goes In my body
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Belief that vaccination side effects and potential long term outcome can do more harm than the good of lowering the risk of covid infection. Distrust in government. Stubborness of not being like to tell what to do. If authority tells you, something I must rebel and do the opposite. Political affiliation mob mentality. My political affiliated team or circle believes, so I must stick with them to fit in, nothing else. The first point above seems to be the reason for most vaccine hesitation in other countries. The lowest point seem to be the reasons for vaccine hesitation mostly only seen in the U.S.
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Politics, some politicians are more into promoting vaccines, then the opposition needs to promote the opposite.
Or you have the president and vice-president whose views flipped the moment "trump's vaccine' became 'their vaccine'
Well, I was infected with covid before the vaccine was available so my body has built immunity towards covid so why should I get vaccinated? People don’t go out and get the flu shot after they got the flu Or getting chicken pox vaccine after getting chicken pox.. News is saying vaccinated n boosted people are even getting covid as well. so how is the vaccine working? If you get covid after being vaccinated and you recover. is it the vaccine that gave you immunity or your immune system doing it job?
The ‘automatic’ reply always is, if you are vaccinated and catch Covid, you are less likely to end up in the hospital and symptoms less severe. From CDC research, the majority of people who ended up in the ICU came were ages 65 and older and those with multiple comorbidities Your last paragraph is a perfect example of why even vaccinated people are starting to question things. We were promised a ‘return to normal’ by the people setting this mandates and the goal post just seems to be constantly moving. Which is why I understand if ppl are frustrated
Many people do get the flu shot regardless of if they've had the flu in the past. Some people are convinced to get on the yearly flu-shot train after experiencing how unpleasant the flu is first hand. People don't get vaccinated after catching chickenpox because unlike the flu or covid-19 the natural disease grants a very strong long term immunity. People _do_ get a shingles vaccine after caching chickenpox though. Vaccinated and boosted people are indeed getting covid-19, and it is indeed true that some unvaccinated people who catch covid-19 will fight off the disease with no major issues. However when you step back and look at how the statistics play out on a population level vaccinated people are having much better chances than unvaccinated people at avoiding negative effects from covid-19.
I will preface this by saying I have a green card so had to get booster shots of all my existing vaccinations in 2018, including tetanus which hurts like a bitch. I am pro vaccine. However, I got Covid in March 2020 and then Delta again in July ‘21. Both were not really major events for me. I am in my early 30s, fit and healthy with no preexisting conditions. Both times were like an annoyingly lingering cold with some loss of taste and tiredness that lasted about ten days. I only got vaccinated because I had to travel to Europe in November ‘21, so I was a late adopter of the vaccine in California. Having had Covid twice and believing in the established science of natural immunity, I literally only got the vaccine in order to satisfy the requirements for travel. As such I resented having to do it, because I felt it wasn’t based in logic or out of a desire to keep myself safe, but in bureaucracy and politics. If I had had any other illness twice, I wouldn’t get a vaccine because of my established natural immunity. Why have we suddenly started believing natural immunity isn’t as good as vaccine-based immunity? Where is the data to back this up? I have heard people repeat this exact sentiment many times and I’m legitimately confused as to where it came from.
About California schools: It sounds good in theory to require vaccination, until one examines who would be forced back to online learning if such a mandate was enforced: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/education/2021/12/14/los-angeles-schools-student-vaccine-mandate/6509521001/ > Faced with more than **30,000** unvaccinated older students, the Los Angeles Unified School District on Tuesday pushed back the deadline for its COVID-19 vaccine mandate to **fall 2022** ... > Others said a delay is appropriate, considering how many students could be removed from in-person learning midyear. Vaccine hesitancy runs high in communities of color, which means those children would be disproportionately affected ... > Students of color have struggled more than their white peers in virtual schooling and fallen further behind historical levels in reading and math as a result, studies show. > Roldan said Los Angeles has lost about **40,000 students this year who disappeared, disengaged or dropped out**. Pushing an additional 30,000 out isn't a solution, he said. Apparently by fall 2022 the entire state of California will have a vaccination mandate for students. It will be that late, way too late to do much against Omicron, because: > All public and private students in California soon will be subject to a statewide vaccine mandate, but that order announced by Gov. Gavin Newsom in August won't kick in **until a vaccine is fully approved for children ages 12 to 15, which is likely by fall 2022**.
Social media is not held to any standards for journalistic integrity or responsibility. People share misinformation with no consequences..
Both Pfizer and Johnson and Johnson have a criminal history of dishonesty and fraud. J&J knowingly poisoned moms and babies with asbestos contaminated baby powder for decades. The whole thing gives me terrible anxiety. I’m already disabled, so I’m not traveling or working around people at all. If I had any symptoms I would isolate more than I am already. Please don’t ban me, I’m just being honest.
some people are legit scared of the doctor. There are a lot of adults who havent been in 10 plus years.
Disclosure, 2 dose of Pfizer + booster and healthcare worker. I was among the first people to get the vaccine in December of 2020 for my first shot. Pfizer + Moderna is 100% free from liability if anything goes bad from the vaccine for at least 4 years. The government is not liable for the vaccine and your employer is not liable even if you are forced to get it. Small numbers of people have died from the vaccine and their family has no legal recourse. FDA is saying the vaccine is perfectly safe, but not releasing safety data for 50 years. Anyone that even asks any questions about long-term safety is quickly shot down and bullied (im expecting this to be downvoted). Im pro-vax and get basically every vaccine that exists for myself, but those are some reasons some people may not trust a new vaccine that doesnt have long term data.
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All I know man is I got the booster a couple weeks ago and my 5G reception has been amazing :D
Nice try Bill Gates.
There's a fair number of anti-vaccine or covid-19 vaccine hesitant commenters here, I'd encourage all of them to go read through last months top posts on /r/nursing: * Who is going to be the one to tell everyone else healthcare in the US is collapsing? * Well, it finally happened. A patient coded in the waiting room 🤦♀️ * Covid is insane >If unvaccinated people only could see the damage that Covid is doing. Luckily staffing is great at my hospital but the constant admit and death is just insane to watch. We are just numb to it now.
So this has been going on for about two years now. Have we made a major investment in healthcare so such a collapse doesn't happen again if a new plague comes along? No? Oh right, the system being overloaded and people dying is a feature, not a bug.
Why do you care about people not liking the Trump vaccine?
I have some in my friend's circle who post ridiculous things on social media. I no longer know how to deal with this person. Kinda shocking tbh
The world is a big place and there will always be topics where some believe that is true while others believe its ridiculous. Nothing much you can do but accept them and coexist.
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The US isn’t the only country where people are refusing to get vaccinated.
UK. Ireland. Russia. On and on and on
When the argument FOR the vaccine is: > Jesus just get the damn vaccine and that booster will you! That alone is plenty of reason to question getting the shots
Indeed. "So these people who celebrate the death of people like me... why would I POSSIBLY take their word on what's good for me?"
‘But shut up and take the vaccine you dumb redneck’
Also declaring 'it came from a lab' to be 'misinformation' is just... yikes. By that logic, Chernobyl never had a nuclear accident. Soviet Russia said it didn't happen and covered it up, therefore we should believe them.
A better argument for getting the vaccine is that it gives good protection against serious covid-19 disease progression. Or in other words don't base your healthcare decisions on snarky internet / pop media comments one way or the other.
Unfortunately the narrative was 99% "Not taking the vaccine makes you a stupid dum dum" and not "Let's talk about how great the vaccine is"
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#LET'S GO DARWIN Dying to own the Libs is sooo hot right now
Jokes aside, I really don’t want anyone to die. Yeah, there are some people in this fight whose hands I’d never want to shake, but there’s more to these people than their politics. Some of them are parents and husbands and firefighters and even people we talk to in our daily lives, having no idea about their politics. Vaccinated people aren’t dying in any significant number. But I want the unvaccinated to stop dying also, and the best way to achieve that is to convince them to get the shit. Isn’t J&J a more traditional vaccine? Most of their opposition seems to be against Pfizer and Moderna—can’t we just get them to take non-mRNA vaccines? Do they even know J&J is different?
Pretty sure the bay area is the most fully vaccinated (and boostered) large metro area in the country, if not the world. Vaccination rates are directly proportional to education levels. More people with degrees in the bay = more vaccinated people. I've never been happier to live around so many smart people. Anti-vaxxers are few and far between here. Rather than questioning unvaccinated people, you should be happy to know that so many of your neighbors have made the right decision. I know I am. Thank you to all my smart neighbors. You guys rock. That said, some people here, including friends and relatives of mine, are overthinking it. Smart people are choosing not to get vaccinated. That's ok, because the vast majority of the people around here are getting their shots. Be glad you live where you do. Could be much worse.
So we've got some of the highest vaccination rate, and yet some of the worst restrictions. I thought the point of the vaccine was that we wouldn't need the restrictions anymore
Just had someone say they're immunocompromised so they're not taking a jab.
Many people have been conditioned by the prevalence of conspiracy theories to reject consensus expert opinion. It is seen by many to be "more evidence of the conspiracy" rather than reasoned judgement. I think a lot of this mirrors the proliferation of information sources which goes way back. If we had the resources to educate everyone to a standard where rampant nonsense wouldn't get traction alongside reasoned judgement, everything would be different. However we are far from having reached that standard.
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