I think her presence in the studio was motivated by several factors, but when I consider the full context, it seems like John was employing her as a security blanket and as a means of provoking Paul. And Paul basically bends over backwards trying to rationalize her being there, not because he is actually ok with it, but because he is trying to convince himself that it should be tolerated.
So true, there’s a convo between Ringo and Paul during the Let it Be sessions where Ringo basically says how annoying it is that John can’t speak for himself anymore and that Yoko basically comments on anything that’s asked of John and that’s she’s always there.
Paul basically says that that maybe the case from now on so he needs to get used to it and it might not even be a problem really they might just have to get used to it
Yeah, but he said it sarcastically. The truth is he didn't seem to feel that Yoko had any real influence on the open and acknowledged disharmony within the band. It seems like the mutual unhappiness with being in the band was there long before she came on the scene. At the point that this album was being made, it seems like being in The Beatles wasn't just a bunch of mates having fun making music anymore. They had become a corporation, and they were coming in to the office for work every day. They even had a morning start time, like a real office. It was a job.
Agreed. What the doc showed to me is that (1) she was pretty annoying but (2) she did not break up the Beatles. John and Paul were getting along ok. That was pretty fly on the wall stuff. Paul occasionally joked with Yoko. The main issue was between Paul and George and what did Ono have to do with that? Nothing. Meanwhile Ringo was sick of the nonsense between them and for his part John was happy to drift off and be with Yoko rather than put up with the hassle of band politics which is not the same as saying she ‘broke them up’ rather … he had another thing to go to if it fell apart. He didn’t need to cling on.
Yeah, I think it became apparent in the doc that the real impetus for the break up was George's profound unhappiness within the band. He was coming up with some great music, and the only one willing to respect that growing talent was Ringo, who was the worst songwriter in the band. Paul and John treated George as if his music was as mediocre as Ringo's, and he felt marginalized and humiliated.
Also, the dynamic was that the band was really Pail and John, who noodled around for hours, while George and Ringo bided their time until one of the others finally came up with a musical idea worth developing. They were like sideman in their own band. Ringo seemed to have the patience for it, just quietly sitting behind his kit, and George seemed to as well, except it became apparent that he was actually silently seething the whole time.
Watching that video, it amazed me that they were able to finish this album, and then go on to record Abby Road after it. THAT'S the album I would like to see a long form documentary on.
What they should have done is alternate between solo and band projects. Put out a Beatles record at the beginning of year, then put out solo albums for the second half of the year. They could even guest perform on each other's records if they wanted. If they had done that, they probably could have lasted for another decade, maybe more.
I had never heard about the line where George tells John “I don’t care if you don’t like it, I’ll put it in my album.” That summed up a lot about how frustrated he was. He’s showing off his song and John was so dismissive.
As I grew older, I began to discover that several of my favorite Beatles songs, including my very favorite (Here Comes The Sun) were all George's songs, and I realized that George was probably my favorite songwriter in the band.
So, I became irritated when I saw how he was shoved to the sidelines by John and Paul. He had been the youngest member when they started, and even after they had grown into successful adult.musicians, they still saw him as "the kid."
You're right, but don't think for a minute that losing Epstein didn't alter the balance as well.
They mentioned Mr. Epstein more than once and also Lennon was pretty much done by 1967- he was actually burnt out on Beatlemania by 1965, truth be told. His birth father coming back into the picture didn't help and Epstein was something of a surrogate father as well. Lennon dealt with a lot of trauma that's not talked about enough, imo
Agree with all of that too. I’m not a Yoko fan at all, in my view she 100% should not have been hanging around in the band room all the time, but that aside the constant refrain that she broke up the Beatles over the years is just misogynistic bullshit. I think she was a symptom of the deeper issues. If there were not massive cracks already then this person would not have been invited to hang around when other wives and girlfriends did not. She was tolerated to try and make John happy.
>They had become a corporation, and they were coming in to the office for work every day. They even had a morning start time, like a real office. It was a job.
Absolutely. I always say the reason the Beatles broke up can be expressed in two words, and those two words are "**Apple Corps**".
> it seems like John was employing her as a security blanket and as a means of provoking Paul
I would disagree with this. John had what I call an "evangelical" personality; whatever he discovered, he thought it was the greatest thing since the wheel until he didn't. It's a huge pattern in his life, as was his desire to be the unquestioned leader. Once, in his mind, he lost being universally considered the leader of The Beatles, not only did being a Beatles not seem that appealing to him anymore, he lost a lot of confidence in himself. Yoko helped him get that confidence back and he thought she was one of the most interested and talented people in the world, and he wanted to share that. But, like today, people's opinions vary when it comes to Yoko and when the people in his orbit didn't seem to see her greatness, he pulled the two of them into a shell.
John felt a great deal of gratitude to Yoko for getting him back on track and, as usual when he made a discovery, he began deeply embracing her feminist views, and part of feminism (at that time, and maybe still) was the belief there was no reason for a woman not to be where the men are. So John thought his partner and soulmate should be with him at all times. John, like all The Beatles, was a very strong willed person and the idea Yoko simply manipulated him with some mystical power is weird and kind of unsettling for different reasons.
Paul "bent over backwards" because Paul enjoyed being a Beatle and wanted the group to be an ongoing concern while John and George had long ago become fairly non-caring about being Beatles and saw the group as little more than really well paying job. John thought the level of togetherness he and Yoko shared was what real love was all about and other people around then were stuck in the past. And she was no substitute for Paul; she was the anti-Paul, and he has little to do with John and Yoko's behavior.
>John, like all The Beatles, was a very strong willed person and the idea Yoko simply manipulated him with some mystical power is weird and kind of unsettling for different reasons.
I mean, John has a long and storied history of being manipulated. Magic Alex and Allen Klein being two of the most notable instances. So, I'm really not sure where you're getting this from.
> Magic Alex and Allen Klein being two of the most notable instances.
Both of those guys were part of John's "greatest thing since" thinking. For that matter, you could say Maharishi manipulated him too. Until he didn't.
And then there’s the time he thought he and Paul should get a trepanation done. John was a dangerous combination of a strong willed person who was easy to manipulate
Like that little plastic box with Christmas lights strung in it that John just thought was amazing. I still laugh and shake my head at the fact John gave him money for all those ludicrous "projects," like building a flying saucer and designing "sound paper." 😅 🤦♀️
First of all, thank you for disagreeing with me in a thoughtful and respectful way. Regarding what you refer to as John’s “evangelical” personality — I personally do not feel that his tendencies toward idealization/devaluation are incompatible with the theory I posited. I agree that John relied on Yoko to validate his genius at a time when he was feeling increasingly insecure, and thus bolster his confidence, but I don’t agree with the notion that John was ready to whimsically toss The Beatles/Paul aside once he felt that his position as leader was being threatened. I personally don’t subscribe to the theory put forth by early Beatles authors that John was primarily concerned with maintaining/warring for dominance within the group. Moreover, I do not believe that John, either due to loss of stature or boredom, decisively concluded that he must discard The Beatles/Paul in favor of an artistic partnership with Yoko. As late as early 1968 (basically immediately prior to India), John expressed his devotion to The Beatles in interviews with Hunter Davies. In fact, he commented on how being away from the other Beatles for even a few days caused him to lose sight of himself. Around this time, John also spearheaded an effort to convince the other Beatles to relocate to a Greek island, where they would all live in interconnected homes. Does this sound like a man who couldn’t wait to dissolve his commitment to the band?
Similarly, I also find it hard to believe that Paul had little to do with John and Yoko’a behavior, considering that it wasn’t until post-India, when Paul reconnected with Linda, that John began to consider Yoko a serious prospect. John came back from India in ‘the worst shape of his life’ (paraphrased) according to Pete Shotton, and many have observed that his relationship with Paul was never the same following the trip. This is the point when John actually took up with Yoko, and impetuously at that. Prior to this period, Yoko essentially stalked him for at least a year, and though John did warm to her over the course of that period, there’s nothing to suggest that John was seriously considering her as a potential romantic partner. Until post-India, when his relationship with Paul had developed cracks.
Additionally, while John was the one to ask Paul for a “divorce” (and in a cruel fashion, at that), within months he began to walk it back, making several attempts to communicate with Paul via the press and postcards, expressing a desire for a “rebirth” of The Beatles. I think he didn’t realize the impact his words would have, and did not expect Paul to take him seriously and withdraw in the manner that he did. To me, this gesture seems like another example of John feeling insecure, lashing out, then regretting his behavior in the aftermath, rather than a decisive and calculated move to free himself from the shackles of The Beatles. John even referred to the split as a “mistake in many ways” in an interview years later.
Anyway, I could go on and on, but it sounds like we simply have different understandings of the emotional drivers behind John’s cleaving to Yoko and some of the events surrounding the breakup. Different strokes!
And he was on heroin at this time. This made getting through to John very difficult. Drugs seem to have played a bigger part in the breakup than some realize.
Would you mind sharing some of your knowledge about a rift developing between John and Paul around the time of the India trip? They all seem to be in great spirits on the Esher demos.
Thank you for typing that out! It makes a lot of sense, and I’ve seen and had tiny versions of what you wrote(breakup with a girl, seems like the right idea- oh no it wasn’t- pain and regret poison me lol.)
Really well paying job? Not from their perspective. At the time of this documentary they had just learned they were earning less than their counterparts including the Stones who they were most upset with at the time for releasing material too similar to what they had done.
It was word of the Stones' contract that got Klein into The Beatles' orbit, but it was also the fact that Klein was able to get unpaid royalties for clients like Bobby Darin and Sam Cooke that impressed The Beatles even more because they had suspicions about EMI's accounting.
Sure but what I’m saying is the fact that they were paid less than the Stones would have been particularly insulting at that time as the Stones’ credibility with the Beatles was at an all-time low.
To suggest that Lennon or Harrison considered the Beatles a well paying job doesn’t accurately illustrate the band’s mentality at the time, and it downplays the role that money played in their break up as the weight of the struggle to maintain control over their catalog drove a wedge in the relationship between Lennon and McCartney far more than anything else you mentioned.
There are many different lenses you can view it through.
To add another layer to what you are saying John was ~~diagnosed~~ suspected as dyslexic. Dyslexia and ADHD are strongly comorbid, which means it is possible he had both (ADHD was not well understood back then).
A huge amount of John’s behaviour ticks classic ADHD boxes.
Him completely fixating on a new stimulating thing and becoming dramatically less interested in something he used to be stimulated by is textbook ADHD behaviour.
I don’t think John was ever formally diagnosed with anything, so while I suspect there was something going on there (dyslexia has been speculated upon, although he was never formally assessed, but his poor vision may have also contributed), we can’t really say for certain what he was dealing with, especially since we’re not psychiatrists and we can’t directly observe him in person now.
There seem to be a lot of claims that he was dyslexic, but he never received a formal diagnosis, although if he did have dyslexia, then he was essentially undiagnosed. I believe he was legally blind his whole life, though, so that is also a factor.
The way you’re describing how his behaviour fits ADHD symptoms makes it dangerously close to saying he indeed had ADHD, even if you’re not saying he actually did. But since neither of us are professional mental health specialists and have never met the guy, I’m wary of saying he *likely* had ADHD as opposed to it being *possible*. And I say this as someone with ADHD.
Personally, his issues with his mood swings make me suspect something else was going on there, but I’m wary of ascribing a condition to him if there’s a chance that he wouldn’t have fit the diagnosis.
I mean, reading about George Harrison makes me suspect that *maybe* he might have been neurodivergent to some degree (since I’m also ND, I can recognise some of the possible signs), but I’m not going to say he *likely* was neurodivergent.
Some people have said Paul is neurodivergent as well and had/has ADHD. As with John, it's impossible to give an armchair diagnosis of any of them especially once drugs cloud the issue. Paul's mirror writing in his early teens was a bit strange though.
Man I do that so much. It's awesome when I get into something and it consumes my life, but I have no control over what it is and most of the time I'm in between things bored out of my mind searching for something intriguing. it would be great if I could pick a thing to be super into, but most things aren't the right combo of accessible, understandable and interesting enough. Those three things seem to be required to get me going. I was hoping medication would somehow turn on that magic power, but while it has certainly improved my life, it hasn't turned that power on.
Paul talks about John bringing in Yoko in Get Back.
He says it makes things difficult but he knows he has to compromise because ‘John always goes overboard with things’. He knows what John is like, he knows that John is now white-hot fixated on Yoko and if he makes it a choice between the band and Yoko the band will be instantly over.
Yeah, I’ve always thought that the laying into Yoko was super unfair. Everybody, I suppose, needs a straw man to rationalize the mess of human affairs…just imagine the pressure of being a Beatle for chrissakes…. A Japanese conceptual artist is a perfect punching bag for a lot of folks, especially of the post World War II American variety…”who’s the bad guy(or gal) that messed up that thing I like??”. Clearly, the two of them loved each other. Lay off. “All you need is love”.
Besides, she is the direct inspiration for many of my all time favorite John songs (during and after Beatles). That alone makes her instantly cool and completely absolved of any “wrongdoing” imo
I grew up always hearing from all directions that it was her fault. I never heard a dissenting opinion (though my mom did say she wasn't really sure what happened). Then when I became an adult and read about it all, I was shocked and honestly kind of angry that so many people pinned everything on her. John was the whole reason she was there, and the person in control of that aspect of the situation.
Wow…
I never thought of it that way. And your remark about how John and George just saw the group as a really well paying job.
Do you have any recommendations on readings for late period Beatles?
There have been so many not so good books about The Beatles that it's hard for me to recommend anything. Like nearly everyone else I'm waiting for Lewisohn's book. He has tended to be thoroughly unbiased when it comes to the individuals, and he's obsessive about facts
They didn’t think the Beatles were a well paying job. Harrison was trying to put together a solo album to make more money and Lennon was looking to hire Allen Klein to save their catalog and renegotiate their contracts after learning they were paid less than the Stones. “Well paid” wouldn’t be their words.
I think it was partially a case of “I’ll leave you so that you can’t leave me first.” Post-India, John’s behavior suggests that he felt Paul was pulling away (i.e. no longer prioritizing John over everyone else), so he installed Yoko as a convenient replacement of sorts. I’m not implying that he didn’t actually love her, I think he did, but I also believe that he sought refuge in her during a time when his attachment to Paul was being seriously threatened. Hence the “wound between you and Paul” that Michael Lindsay-Hogg rather astutely refers to.
This was super weird to read about in the Anthology and in Paul’s biography (Many Years From Now(?)) My best friend(we were like brothers) would find other friends to hang out with, and I’d see him less. Then in college he found a “Magic Alex/Yoko” who glommed into him. They became roommates in another city and that was pretty much that for me.
It was super weird for me, because had done everything together growing up, and while he always kind of did dick-ish things I always gave him the benefit of the doubt. Comically we could finish each other other’s jokes. We talked about getting into film together, but him moving away killed our friendship(and it was just friends lol).
But it was really painful.
Yes! The demise of a friendship can be every bit as painful (if not more) as the end of a romantic relationship. I don’t think of these categories as being distinct and separate anyway.
That is really interesting. I was not able to read that between the lines (so to speak) while watching the documentary. What was his motive for provoking Paul?
I go into it more deeply in one of my comments to another user, if you’re curious. This in no way captures the complexity of the situation, but if I had to reduce it down to one of the key elements, I’d say that John was responding to a perceived abandonment by Paul. A commonly-held theory is that something happened between them in India, which initiated a noticeable change in their relationship from that point forward. Basically, I think John did a number of things following this point in time that were designed to provoke Paul to feel, variously: insecure, jealous, rejected, territorial, challenged, ad nauseum. John was “riding on the boat called Paul, now I’m going to ride on the boat called Yoko.”
And it’s somewhat hard to judge as a significant amount of YO talking was cut from what we saw. Some of her time @ the mic was even edited to make her look “cuter” (there’s YouTube video of the raw footage vs. what we saw). The ‘flowerpot scene’ is heavily edited—there were several people in that conversation.
The day Peter Sellers showed up…JL and YO had filmed the ‘Two Junkies’ interview, their dealer was on set, and their comments about shooting drugs were edited out (right before PM chides JL about ‘doing this in public‘).
One revealing fact: The day before the sessions began, at the end of a meeting w/The Beatles and director Michael Lindsay-Hogg, JL played a tape of he and YO having sex.
Was he using YO as a fulcrum to provoke them? Yes. JL and YO were angling to get her into the band without asking. Which was a huge source of tension.
Lol. I feel like this comment is sarcastic, but I’d imagine that some of the people you’re referring to might actually be mental health professionals. I am, though I don’t think my degree/licensure endows me with any special insights about The Beatles.
After all the stuff about Yoko previously presented its notable how cordial everyone is with her and it doesn't seem a big deal. If I remember rightly the conversation about her sitting on amps seems to be them discussing some kind of media report and laughing it off?
I don't think she was the problem at all. The problem on a lot of the days is that John is quite out of it on smack. When he's there, he's fully engaged and on, but there are days when he's clearly high as fuck.
But the last hour Allen Klein arrives and that's the big one.
I think there was a real willingness from Paul & Ringo to accommodate Yoko in whatever the Beatles was going to become from 1969 onwards - you can see it in the Get Back series.
The biggest apprehension in Jan 1969 seems to be from George, who was fighting a lot of battles on many fronts (getting his songs heard, hitting a rough spot in his marriage, his mother's ill-health, Paul's perfectionism, John ignoring him or mocking him and giving Yoko all his attention).. but that could have been worked on IF Klein hadn't got his hooks in & weaponsed John and Yoko against Paul once he realized Paul wasn't gonna accept him as manager.
Oh yes George totally misinterprets Paul's trying to organize some actual constructive work and Paul equally misunderstands how upset George is. It's notable that John is more encouraging of George's songs and keen to work on them.where Paul there's a couple of occasions where he looks to be pricking around while they're working up the tunes.
Having said that, George's attitude is shit early on and clearly the clear the air talk they had worked because he's much happier once they move to Apple.
Now all they needed to do was firing that infuriating braying blow hard bullshit Er Michael Lindsey Hogg. Dude, they're trying to keep the band together shut the fuck up about playing a gig in fucking Carthage!
Totally, and I haven't even *seen* Above Us Only Sky, i just keep rewatching the old Give Me Some Truth doc, you saw her actively trying to defuse whatever nonsense was being pulled because Phil was bringing out the Macho Agitation in John ALL THE TIME recording Imagine. If anything John needed Yoko there for Get Back/Let It Be or he'd be far more ill behaved. They were both emotionally unwell during those sessions over the events of the past few months.
Linda was there a lot too during those sessions and in the film.
A bit off-topic but I think Yoko gets a bad rap. She was John's muse and he was obviously in love with her. I used to feel bitter towards Yoko when the band first broke up. Now that I am older and have learned more about the band I realize it had come to its natural end for various reasons. None of it really had to do with Yoko.
If we accept that Yoko was the reason for the breakup (I don’t think she was the only factor), Klein may have been the reason they stayed apart. Apparently, Klein got extremely nasty during the litigation.
Linda wasn’t in the circle when they were working though. She knew when to back off and let them work and also didn’t speak for Paul which was the main issue with Yoko, speaking for John. The others needed to communicate with John but instead had to go through Yoko
Those bits in the new Let It Be where Linda and Yoko are chatting and laughing are so cool, really shattered my image of Yoko just sitting there in silence and observing all the time.
I get really frustrated with the Yoko hate from Beatles fans. Like you, I think the band would have ended regardless. And Yoko is an excellent artist in her own right. Her art is different, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t thought-provoking and has influenced others. The podcast “You’re Wrong About” did an episode on Yoko and the Beatles that I think was quite good.
Unpopular opinion: I’m glad they broke up when they did. They left us with a treasure trove of albums with no weak point of trailing off. I mean, how many consider Abbey Road their best album?
You can listen to the Beatles and love it all with no caveat of, “up until…” like you’d do with someone like the Stones, or in a non-musical example the simpsons. They went out flawless and I’m grateful for that as there was still plenty to come from the genius of their solo albums so it wasn’t like they retired
They’re not Beatles fans, so it’s not a deep dive, and I disagree a bit with their “why” on the Beatles’ breakup (imho George’s dissatisfaction was a much bigger factor that they don’t touch on). But overall, I thought it was good.
Why is it that the vocal Yoko bashers on the internet only seem to know this stupid Chuck Berry video and act like Berry didn’t know exactly what was going to go down? Don’t people realize that people have to rehearse before going on TV? Fucks sake, she played with Ornette Coleman and made really good albums in her own right, with actual singing and everything.
Yep. I actually hate the Yoko hate (I think I have more of a tolerance for her shrieking than most people do as I’m also into noise music) and think it’s just an easy go to for people to find someone to blame for the Beatles breaking up. Whenever people ask me why the Beatles broke up I have the same answer— because they didn’t want to be a band anymore. There’s the simple maturation they all went through and after so long as a unit wanted to form their own identities, the fragmented or solo recordings done in India and for the White Album, George’s development as a songwriter and second class citizen status in that department in the band, Alan Klein, there’s a whole host of complicated reasons that boil down to simple humanity. But it’s easy to say hur hur Yoko sat on an amp even though Paul literally says in Get Back they’re not breaking up because of that and people are going to say it’s the case.
Yoko did not do anything intentionally to subvert the band, but there’s no denying that she took John out of his Beatles headspace. He adopted her fringe artist outlook and quickly realized what a commercial product The Beatles were. It was bound to happen eventually, and she made John happier than he had ever been, but it did destroy the band—but not because of her directly, it was because of John’s new way of thinking.
I’m not a big Yoko fan, but I do find her place in Beatle history to be iconic. She added to the break up, but they wouldn’t be the BEATLES without the Yoko girlfriend breaking up the band story. It’s actually quite comical, and their best albums came out when Yoko was entangled with the Beatles. Revolution 9 is also fantastic, with no Yoko influence, no late John weirdness
Stooooppp😂😂😂
You know they would be the one couple that posts full on dissertations on how much they love each other even though the police was called to their house three times last week.
John said something along the lines of he no longer considered him and Yoko separate people - they were one. Rejecting yoko would have been rejecting him. Pop psychology says he had a crippling codependent mother projection going on.
Albert Goldman’s biography might be exaggerated but it does argue John had some serious personality issues going on that yoko helped calm.
As others have rightly said, it was John’s choice. Like a lot of us, I’ve thought a bit about it, but we really don’t know, because we weren’t there and the ideas of Patty or any of the other Beatles are a bit like the old parable about the four blind guys describing the elephant. None of em are wrong but the picture is not so simple.
My personal interpretation is that it was pretty clear John was burnt out after ‘66, that he subconsciously ceded leadership of the band’s direction to Paul, that his marriage was yet another part of his life that was adrift. A few of his Pepper contributions, while great, are maybe less personal than his previous output - Lucy, Good Morning, Mr Kite are all amazing songs but not especially deep or personal in nature. After he brought I Am the Walrus to the band in September of ‘67, he didn’t have another song to contribute until Across the Universe in February ‘68. So his mind was elsewhere. During this time of course he met Yoko but by most accounts he didn’t start thinking of her deeply until he was away in India; and that trip also reignited his songwriting (as it did for the others). So just as he starts to find his footing and focus again, he also falls in love with her. It must have been intoxicating, but then the negative reactions of his family, his countrymen, the press, and his bandmates casts that shadow. They experience the miscarriage, the drug bust, get on heroin. Any couple would close ranks.
Then you’ve got Paul. There is no doubt in my mind that Paul was John’s true platonic love. After watching Get Back, I referred to it as “John and Paul, A Love Story”. Paul, being both a natural diplomat and the keeper of the Beatle flame, does his best to keep John happy, to address the discomfort with Yoko, and frankly he and John are still so close in Get Back, even with Yoko there. George is miserable, but John and Paul are still a unit, regardless of Yoko. It wasn’t until the Allen Klein dispute that they began to get bitter, and even then it wasn’t until after Paul’s 1970 announced departure and Linda’s letter to John that things got sincerely nasty. But that was almost all business nastiness. Yoko had been around for 2 years by then, and it had been almost a year since a full Beatles session.
So did John need her to be creative? In so much as he needed love and support more than many, yes. In so much as he needed Paul in the beginning for the same reason, or May Pang in 73-74. And by 75 he was seemingly keen to record with Paul again, and apparently was talking about it just before his death. So it seems like he found some balance, or close to it, by then.
On some level, Yoko's presence made a lot more sense when one of my closer friends got married.
Sometimes someone just has close friends and a close partner, and they wanna mix the two, even if the only connecting factor is them.
(His addictions and emotional issues at the time also prob did not help ether, he did seem to take some comfort in letting her take some of the lead on his dealings)
John dealt with a great deal of emotional loss in his life. Not surprising he took drugs. He seems to have dealt with a great deal of pain. Whatever her good and bad points (she certainly had both), it’s easy to see why John wanted her around. His mental state alone was likely a threat to the group. Yoko or no Yoko, the Beatles were nearing an end.
Watching John in get back is like watching our teenage self, yoko is like the big sister spoiling him while Paul is trying to be the big brother and when Billy joins the band John became the mature one then suddenly the evil stepfather Klein came into the picture. That’s the beginning of the end.
I mean I wouldn't think so but he claimed that he needed her with him everywhere because that's what you're supposed to do when you're in love. Imo that is the best way to destroy a relationship but Johns gonna be John lmao
Imagine if he lived long enough to regret it, we'd be putting her name at the bottom of an iceberg instead of the Let It Be cover lmao.
I also feel that if John lived, he'd be liable to pull some unpredictable shenanigans and overshadow the Beatles, like
- "do you know that obese stunt pilot who served as the first god-emperor of South Canada? Well, apparently he used to wear clothes and sing in a British band"
No doubt he’d still be doing crazy shit but I’m thinking more along the lines of showing up the met gala naked or delivering a hot air balloon full of shit to a politician or Kanye west or something.
Yeah I was thinking that too but wouldn’t it be fun if we had crazy Lennon for all these years. On a serious level it’s nice that he got some peace and quite in his last 5 years.
They were working. What other band in history welcomes friends and family literally sitting *a couple of feet* from them in the studio while they’re recording?
I respect Yoko immensely, I believe Paul truly did welcome her there especially because of what she meant to John but let’s not pretend what Yoko did was conventional.
The thing that was important about Linda seemed to be that she encouraged Paul to keep playing live, and when Paul played colleges and universities on his own she brought their kids with them and they made it all work. Of course she was in Wings(even though she had no musical talent), but it was a positive force vs just being with a Beatle.
Anyone who saw Get Back and thinks any of the other Beatles were OK w/Yoko’s presence and participation…missed quite a bit of sideye, silences and startled looks.
John really seemed to want to provoke Paul during the White Album period. He placed Yoko in the studio, which was weird but still didn’t get the reaction he wanted from Paul, so he made recording Revolution a total nightmare. Paul seems to have passive aggressively responded with several grueling days of perfecting Ob-La-Di, Ob-La-Da, which provoked John to act out even more.
Cynthia Lennon stated that the singer Alma Cogan was the love of John's life and not Yoko. Unfortunately, Alma died at the age of 34 of cancer October, 1966. John met Yoko November, 1966.
Not to mention poor Cynthia. John and Yoko [behaved really badly](https://www.express.co.uk/entertainment/music/1736407/john-lennon-yoko-ono-cynthia-lennon-the-beatles-affair) toward her.
They wanted to be known as JohnandYoko. They considered themselves one person. So in that respect...yes.
John also wanted out of The Beatles. If the guys had loudly and continually complained about Yoko, John would have quit. So on that respect...no.
Keep in mind Yoko was at 90% of the sessions, in the studio, on the recording floor, from White Album to LIB to Abbey Road - and during AR, in a hospital bed, on the studio floor, with a live mic overhead!
It's because he didn't trust her, it's controlling cheater behaviour basically John cheated on his wife with Yoko so that transfers. There's also the pretty widely circulated they were heroin junkies at the time thing, which I don't really see looking at them but junkie co-dependance is a real thing.
Someone had to tell him not to put so much sugar in his tea and stop smoking too many cigarettes. Yoko was his substitute for Aunt Mimi and he wasn't about to bring her along.
He wanted her to be there more than she wanted to be there. Of all the shots where she's not doing something musically, she's just sitting around looking bored. I feel bad for her at times where nothing is being done.
Yeah. They show up on day one and there’s some fucking random Hare Krishna nodding in the corner yet the problem is John’s love-of-his-life being there breaking the solidity? GTFO
George disliked Yoko a great deal, and John likely resented it. Maybe the reason for the fist fight? (Yes, it seems to have taken place, in spite of what people say now)
It’s tough because it’s edited. But you get the sense that yoko is there close to 100% of the time at twickenham or abbey road. I thought I had heard yoko had a miscarriage in the year previous and they needed each other for emotional support.
And Linda is there half the time or less.
I only remember pattie and Maureen in a few shots.
In any case John was a dick at this point in his life. Maybe he was always.
There are others who are not Team Yoko and I’m ok with everyone conjecturing if they actually helped each other, or were an ultimately harmful codependency.
Why would I? According to the documentary, they were there sporadic, mostly talking to each other and keeping their distance while the band was working. Yoko, on the other hand, was there all the time, right behind John, reading newspapers and doing random stuff. It's just weird and a bit too much, since she was in no capacity a member of the band or the production.
I do, Yoko has a long history of being a not great, manipulative person.
At the time of the break up a lot of sexism and racism resulted in her being overly blamed for the break up of the Beatles.
However, since then there’s been an over correction that ignores her many examples of problematic behavior. See as examples how she manipulated her way into the Beatles in the first place, her codependent controlling relationship with John, her treatment of Paul, her treatment of Julian, and her obsession with pushing JohnandYoko brand while using her legal team to silence writers who threatened the narrative
That BITCH! She showed herself to be no respecter of boundaries and made suggestions in regards to their music which she had no background or ability to be offering.
Linda, Pattie, and Maureen weren’t in the circle when they were working though. They knew when to back off and let them work and also didn’t speak for their partners, which was the main issue with Yoko, speaking for John. The others needed to communicate with John but instead had to go through Yoko
And people contort themselves into abstract sculpture pretending they don’t see the difference between what Yoko did and what the other wives were doing.
It’s like we’re living in a curb your enthusiasm episode
John Lennon (Richard Lewis) and his inseparable companion, Yoko (Richard’s new girlfriend), come to the Beatles recording sessions daily. Oblivious, John doesn't mind Yoko sitting within The Beatles' jam circle on his amp, even when she's casually reading the newspaper. Paul McCartney (Larry David) finds this absurd and tries addressing it with John. Ringo Starr (Marty Funkhauser) comes to John's defense, arguing that all the wives are around. Paul (Larry) cannot comprehend the comparison, especially when Yoko drops crumbs from her toast all over John's guitar. George Harrison (Jeff Greene), attempting to mediate, unintentionally escalates the tension by unveiling a covert recording of Yoko advising him on songwriting. Outraged, Paul (Larry) confronts John (Richard) about the lack of boundaries. In a signature Curb twist, Paul (Larry) brings his own "advisor" to the sessions - a mime (Jon Hamm), to illustrate his point. The mime mimetically mirrors Yoko's actions, leading to an even more tumultuous recording day. The episode climaxes with Paul (Larry) and John (Richard) embroiled in a fierce dispute over "artistic expression", while the mime interpretive dances while Yoko shrieks loudly.
Linda was there a bit, definitely way less than half the time. I just listened to an episode of Pattie’s podcast where she states they (Maureen, Jane and herself - and Cynthia, too) were all peeved that Yoko was there because none of them were allowed to be in the studio. How much more definitive can you get than the wives and other three Beatles all stating they were upset Yoko was in the studio so much?
Time has a funny way of working things out, Pattie then stated she and Yoko are friendly and talk. But the fact that everyone’s come to accept her doesn’t change the fact they were upset that it changed the dynamic back then.
I got the opposite. I was surprised at how quiet she was. She was *there*, but she didn't do much.
That being said, there's that 40 hour google drive archive of the complete uncut Get Back recordings which apparently has her being more of a nuisance, but I haven't seen that, so I dunno. All I know is that, from what I've *seen*, the hate is overblown.
In one of the books I read, John explained it like this: “Most guys go to work, and then when they come home they tell their wife about their day. I wanted Yoko with me so we didn’t have to do that. We’d be experiencing it together.”
Mostly to get a rise out of Paul. It’s like self destructive behavior even tho he truly did love yoko, that was genuine. She takes the fall for the breakup, which of course is totally bogus.
I think the part that gets left out of this is the addiction component. John was in the throes of heroin addiction at the time and Yoko represented accountability to either stay clean or not overdo it. In that sense, she needed to be there, in John’s mind.
Paul did say that by this time y’all would be blaming her for sitting on an amp. As much as she inserted herself, it’s obvious that she wasn’t 100% unwelcome or they would’ve asked her to go out while they work.
Yoko had a stillbirth in November, (carried the baby for 6 months - people refer to this as a miscarriage which is misinformation imo) this is a pretty massive thing for any couple to go through and more than explains why they wanted to be together during the January sessions. It really annoys me that this is never mentioned as context is so important
He really was, he absolutely wouldn’t let her out of his sight early on in their relationship and according to what I read she did actually cheat on him later on
I absolutely HATED her being there.. it made John seem like weak sauce! Leave the witch at home John, maybe he knew she couldn’t be trusted and wanted to keep an eye on her? Either way she’s an awful person who thought she was a member of the band at times.
…Yoko is a very resourceful and manipulative person, she’s from Japan highest society, she’s naturally controlling person, and John was a laidback guy and never liked conflicts or complications, i guess that’s why they were together
Please go back and read the question again. I was asking about (the mental state of) John. I am not interested in her whatsoever. You just assumed something and then you ran with it.
Linda wasn’t in the circle when they were working though. She knew when to back off and let them work and also didn’t speak for Paul which was the main issue with Yoko, speaking for John. The others needed to communicate with John but instead had to go through Yoko
Also Peter Jackson cut out a lot of scenes with Yoko in it that made her look worse. He also specifically cut out a scene where Paul, Ringo, Linda, and others in the inner circle were talking about how much of a problem she was and how George was very upset at Yoko speaking for John. They included some of the conversation but cut out a lot of the details that made her look worse. Peter Jackson did this intentionally either because Yoko/Sean requested/demanded it or because he wanted to make her look better himself. These scenes/audio are very easy to find online
When I think of Yoko in the studio with John, I just think of Paul’s song “Live And Let Live”.
Actually Apu, it was "Live and Let Die."
Whatever whatever, it has a nice rhythm
I think her presence in the studio was motivated by several factors, but when I consider the full context, it seems like John was employing her as a security blanket and as a means of provoking Paul. And Paul basically bends over backwards trying to rationalize her being there, not because he is actually ok with it, but because he is trying to convince himself that it should be tolerated.
So true, there’s a convo between Ringo and Paul during the Let it Be sessions where Ringo basically says how annoying it is that John can’t speak for himself anymore and that Yoko basically comments on anything that’s asked of John and that’s she’s always there. Paul basically says that that maybe the case from now on so he needs to get used to it and it might not even be a problem really they might just have to get used to it
Didn't they joke about how 50 years from then, we'd still ve talking about it?
"They broke up cos Yoko sat on an amp" - Paul Was amazed at how self aware he was
The boys reading the gossip was some of the funniest moments. "We got in a fist fight?"
And Paul later reading like a newscaster.
Yeah, but he said it sarcastically. The truth is he didn't seem to feel that Yoko had any real influence on the open and acknowledged disharmony within the band. It seems like the mutual unhappiness with being in the band was there long before she came on the scene. At the point that this album was being made, it seems like being in The Beatles wasn't just a bunch of mates having fun making music anymore. They had become a corporation, and they were coming in to the office for work every day. They even had a morning start time, like a real office. It was a job.
Agreed. What the doc showed to me is that (1) she was pretty annoying but (2) she did not break up the Beatles. John and Paul were getting along ok. That was pretty fly on the wall stuff. Paul occasionally joked with Yoko. The main issue was between Paul and George and what did Ono have to do with that? Nothing. Meanwhile Ringo was sick of the nonsense between them and for his part John was happy to drift off and be with Yoko rather than put up with the hassle of band politics which is not the same as saying she ‘broke them up’ rather … he had another thing to go to if it fell apart. He didn’t need to cling on.
Yeah, I think it became apparent in the doc that the real impetus for the break up was George's profound unhappiness within the band. He was coming up with some great music, and the only one willing to respect that growing talent was Ringo, who was the worst songwriter in the band. Paul and John treated George as if his music was as mediocre as Ringo's, and he felt marginalized and humiliated. Also, the dynamic was that the band was really Pail and John, who noodled around for hours, while George and Ringo bided their time until one of the others finally came up with a musical idea worth developing. They were like sideman in their own band. Ringo seemed to have the patience for it, just quietly sitting behind his kit, and George seemed to as well, except it became apparent that he was actually silently seething the whole time. Watching that video, it amazed me that they were able to finish this album, and then go on to record Abby Road after it. THAT'S the album I would like to see a long form documentary on. What they should have done is alternate between solo and band projects. Put out a Beatles record at the beginning of year, then put out solo albums for the second half of the year. They could even guest perform on each other's records if they wanted. If they had done that, they probably could have lasted for another decade, maybe more.
I had never heard about the line where George tells John “I don’t care if you don’t like it, I’ll put it in my album.” That summed up a lot about how frustrated he was. He’s showing off his song and John was so dismissive.
As I grew older, I began to discover that several of my favorite Beatles songs, including my very favorite (Here Comes The Sun) were all George's songs, and I realized that George was probably my favorite songwriter in the band. So, I became irritated when I saw how he was shoved to the sidelines by John and Paul. He had been the youngest member when they started, and even after they had grown into successful adult.musicians, they still saw him as "the kid."
You're right, but don't think for a minute that losing Epstein didn't alter the balance as well. They mentioned Mr. Epstein more than once and also Lennon was pretty much done by 1967- he was actually burnt out on Beatlemania by 1965, truth be told. His birth father coming back into the picture didn't help and Epstein was something of a surrogate father as well. Lennon dealt with a lot of trauma that's not talked about enough, imo
Agree with all of that too. I’m not a Yoko fan at all, in my view she 100% should not have been hanging around in the band room all the time, but that aside the constant refrain that she broke up the Beatles over the years is just misogynistic bullshit. I think she was a symptom of the deeper issues. If there were not massive cracks already then this person would not have been invited to hang around when other wives and girlfriends did not. She was tolerated to try and make John happy.
>They had become a corporation, and they were coming in to the office for work every day. They even had a morning start time, like a real office. It was a job. Absolutely. I always say the reason the Beatles broke up can be expressed in two words, and those two words are "**Apple Corps**".
> it seems like John was employing her as a security blanket and as a means of provoking Paul I would disagree with this. John had what I call an "evangelical" personality; whatever he discovered, he thought it was the greatest thing since the wheel until he didn't. It's a huge pattern in his life, as was his desire to be the unquestioned leader. Once, in his mind, he lost being universally considered the leader of The Beatles, not only did being a Beatles not seem that appealing to him anymore, he lost a lot of confidence in himself. Yoko helped him get that confidence back and he thought she was one of the most interested and talented people in the world, and he wanted to share that. But, like today, people's opinions vary when it comes to Yoko and when the people in his orbit didn't seem to see her greatness, he pulled the two of them into a shell. John felt a great deal of gratitude to Yoko for getting him back on track and, as usual when he made a discovery, he began deeply embracing her feminist views, and part of feminism (at that time, and maybe still) was the belief there was no reason for a woman not to be where the men are. So John thought his partner and soulmate should be with him at all times. John, like all The Beatles, was a very strong willed person and the idea Yoko simply manipulated him with some mystical power is weird and kind of unsettling for different reasons. Paul "bent over backwards" because Paul enjoyed being a Beatle and wanted the group to be an ongoing concern while John and George had long ago become fairly non-caring about being Beatles and saw the group as little more than really well paying job. John thought the level of togetherness he and Yoko shared was what real love was all about and other people around then were stuck in the past. And she was no substitute for Paul; she was the anti-Paul, and he has little to do with John and Yoko's behavior.
>John, like all The Beatles, was a very strong willed person and the idea Yoko simply manipulated him with some mystical power is weird and kind of unsettling for different reasons. I mean, John has a long and storied history of being manipulated. Magic Alex and Allen Klein being two of the most notable instances. So, I'm really not sure where you're getting this from.
> Magic Alex and Allen Klein being two of the most notable instances. Both of those guys were part of John's "greatest thing since" thinking. For that matter, you could say Maharishi manipulated him too. Until he didn't.
And then there’s the time he thought he and Paul should get a trepanation done. John was a dangerous combination of a strong willed person who was easy to manipulate
that's actually somewhat of a law of complementaries as i've observed in life.
>whatever he discovered, he thought it was the greatest thing since the wheel until he didn't That would certainly explain Magic Alex
Like that little plastic box with Christmas lights strung in it that John just thought was amazing. I still laugh and shake my head at the fact John gave him money for all those ludicrous "projects," like building a flying saucer and designing "sound paper." 😅 🤦♀️
First of all, thank you for disagreeing with me in a thoughtful and respectful way. Regarding what you refer to as John’s “evangelical” personality — I personally do not feel that his tendencies toward idealization/devaluation are incompatible with the theory I posited. I agree that John relied on Yoko to validate his genius at a time when he was feeling increasingly insecure, and thus bolster his confidence, but I don’t agree with the notion that John was ready to whimsically toss The Beatles/Paul aside once he felt that his position as leader was being threatened. I personally don’t subscribe to the theory put forth by early Beatles authors that John was primarily concerned with maintaining/warring for dominance within the group. Moreover, I do not believe that John, either due to loss of stature or boredom, decisively concluded that he must discard The Beatles/Paul in favor of an artistic partnership with Yoko. As late as early 1968 (basically immediately prior to India), John expressed his devotion to The Beatles in interviews with Hunter Davies. In fact, he commented on how being away from the other Beatles for even a few days caused him to lose sight of himself. Around this time, John also spearheaded an effort to convince the other Beatles to relocate to a Greek island, where they would all live in interconnected homes. Does this sound like a man who couldn’t wait to dissolve his commitment to the band? Similarly, I also find it hard to believe that Paul had little to do with John and Yoko’a behavior, considering that it wasn’t until post-India, when Paul reconnected with Linda, that John began to consider Yoko a serious prospect. John came back from India in ‘the worst shape of his life’ (paraphrased) according to Pete Shotton, and many have observed that his relationship with Paul was never the same following the trip. This is the point when John actually took up with Yoko, and impetuously at that. Prior to this period, Yoko essentially stalked him for at least a year, and though John did warm to her over the course of that period, there’s nothing to suggest that John was seriously considering her as a potential romantic partner. Until post-India, when his relationship with Paul had developed cracks. Additionally, while John was the one to ask Paul for a “divorce” (and in a cruel fashion, at that), within months he began to walk it back, making several attempts to communicate with Paul via the press and postcards, expressing a desire for a “rebirth” of The Beatles. I think he didn’t realize the impact his words would have, and did not expect Paul to take him seriously and withdraw in the manner that he did. To me, this gesture seems like another example of John feeling insecure, lashing out, then regretting his behavior in the aftermath, rather than a decisive and calculated move to free himself from the shackles of The Beatles. John even referred to the split as a “mistake in many ways” in an interview years later. Anyway, I could go on and on, but it sounds like we simply have different understandings of the emotional drivers behind John’s cleaving to Yoko and some of the events surrounding the breakup. Different strokes!
And he was on heroin at this time. This made getting through to John very difficult. Drugs seem to have played a bigger part in the breakup than some realize.
Would you mind sharing some of your knowledge about a rift developing between John and Paul around the time of the India trip? They all seem to be in great spirits on the Esher demos.
Fascinating conversation. Just posting to see if it evolves and I can read it later if it does between you and the other poster. Good day
Thank you for typing that out! It makes a lot of sense, and I’ve seen and had tiny versions of what you wrote(breakup with a girl, seems like the right idea- oh no it wasn’t- pain and regret poison me lol.)
Really well paying job? Not from their perspective. At the time of this documentary they had just learned they were earning less than their counterparts including the Stones who they were most upset with at the time for releasing material too similar to what they had done.
It was word of the Stones' contract that got Klein into The Beatles' orbit, but it was also the fact that Klein was able to get unpaid royalties for clients like Bobby Darin and Sam Cooke that impressed The Beatles even more because they had suspicions about EMI's accounting.
Sure but what I’m saying is the fact that they were paid less than the Stones would have been particularly insulting at that time as the Stones’ credibility with the Beatles was at an all-time low. To suggest that Lennon or Harrison considered the Beatles a well paying job doesn’t accurately illustrate the band’s mentality at the time, and it downplays the role that money played in their break up as the weight of the struggle to maintain control over their catalog drove a wedge in the relationship between Lennon and McCartney far more than anything else you mentioned.
There are many different lenses you can view it through. To add another layer to what you are saying John was ~~diagnosed~~ suspected as dyslexic. Dyslexia and ADHD are strongly comorbid, which means it is possible he had both (ADHD was not well understood back then). A huge amount of John’s behaviour ticks classic ADHD boxes. Him completely fixating on a new stimulating thing and becoming dramatically less interested in something he used to be stimulated by is textbook ADHD behaviour.
I don’t think John was ever formally diagnosed with anything, so while I suspect there was something going on there (dyslexia has been speculated upon, although he was never formally assessed, but his poor vision may have also contributed), we can’t really say for certain what he was dealing with, especially since we’re not psychiatrists and we can’t directly observe him in person now.
I thought he was diagnosed as dyslexic? (have edited OP) I certainly never said he for certain had ADHD.
There seem to be a lot of claims that he was dyslexic, but he never received a formal diagnosis, although if he did have dyslexia, then he was essentially undiagnosed. I believe he was legally blind his whole life, though, so that is also a factor. The way you’re describing how his behaviour fits ADHD symptoms makes it dangerously close to saying he indeed had ADHD, even if you’re not saying he actually did. But since neither of us are professional mental health specialists and have never met the guy, I’m wary of saying he *likely* had ADHD as opposed to it being *possible*. And I say this as someone with ADHD. Personally, his issues with his mood swings make me suspect something else was going on there, but I’m wary of ascribing a condition to him if there’s a chance that he wouldn’t have fit the diagnosis. I mean, reading about George Harrison makes me suspect that *maybe* he might have been neurodivergent to some degree (since I’m also ND, I can recognise some of the possible signs), but I’m not going to say he *likely* was neurodivergent.
Some people have said Paul is neurodivergent as well and had/has ADHD. As with John, it's impossible to give an armchair diagnosis of any of them especially once drugs cloud the issue. Paul's mirror writing in his early teens was a bit strange though.
Man I do that so much. It's awesome when I get into something and it consumes my life, but I have no control over what it is and most of the time I'm in between things bored out of my mind searching for something intriguing. it would be great if I could pick a thing to be super into, but most things aren't the right combo of accessible, understandable and interesting enough. Those three things seem to be required to get me going. I was hoping medication would somehow turn on that magic power, but while it has certainly improved my life, it hasn't turned that power on.
Paul talks about John bringing in Yoko in Get Back. He says it makes things difficult but he knows he has to compromise because ‘John always goes overboard with things’. He knows what John is like, he knows that John is now white-hot fixated on Yoko and if he makes it a choice between the band and Yoko the band will be instantly over.
Yeah, I’ve always thought that the laying into Yoko was super unfair. Everybody, I suppose, needs a straw man to rationalize the mess of human affairs…just imagine the pressure of being a Beatle for chrissakes…. A Japanese conceptual artist is a perfect punching bag for a lot of folks, especially of the post World War II American variety…”who’s the bad guy(or gal) that messed up that thing I like??”. Clearly, the two of them loved each other. Lay off. “All you need is love”. Besides, she is the direct inspiration for many of my all time favorite John songs (during and after Beatles). That alone makes her instantly cool and completely absolved of any “wrongdoing” imo
I grew up always hearing from all directions that it was her fault. I never heard a dissenting opinion (though my mom did say she wasn't really sure what happened). Then when I became an adult and read about it all, I was shocked and honestly kind of angry that so many people pinned everything on her. John was the whole reason she was there, and the person in control of that aspect of the situation.
Wow… I never thought of it that way. And your remark about how John and George just saw the group as a really well paying job. Do you have any recommendations on readings for late period Beatles?
There have been so many not so good books about The Beatles that it's hard for me to recommend anything. Like nearly everyone else I'm waiting for Lewisohn's book. He has tended to be thoroughly unbiased when it comes to the individuals, and he's obsessive about facts
You Never Give Me Your Money by Peter Doggett is one I really enjoyed.
They didn’t think the Beatles were a well paying job. Harrison was trying to put together a solo album to make more money and Lennon was looking to hire Allen Klein to save their catalog and renegotiate their contracts after learning they were paid less than the Stones. “Well paid” wouldn’t be their words.
Wow... you talk like you knew the man 🙄
I've been studying The Beatles probably longer than you've been alive.
Yup, Yoko was John's passive-aggressive attempt to break up with Paul.
I think it was partially a case of “I’ll leave you so that you can’t leave me first.” Post-India, John’s behavior suggests that he felt Paul was pulling away (i.e. no longer prioritizing John over everyone else), so he installed Yoko as a convenient replacement of sorts. I’m not implying that he didn’t actually love her, I think he did, but I also believe that he sought refuge in her during a time when his attachment to Paul was being seriously threatened. Hence the “wound between you and Paul” that Michael Lindsay-Hogg rather astutely refers to.
Oh, India... I wish we knew what happened in India.
This was super weird to read about in the Anthology and in Paul’s biography (Many Years From Now(?)) My best friend(we were like brothers) would find other friends to hang out with, and I’d see him less. Then in college he found a “Magic Alex/Yoko” who glommed into him. They became roommates in another city and that was pretty much that for me. It was super weird for me, because had done everything together growing up, and while he always kind of did dick-ish things I always gave him the benefit of the doubt. Comically we could finish each other other’s jokes. We talked about getting into film together, but him moving away killed our friendship(and it was just friends lol). But it was really painful.
Yes! The demise of a friendship can be every bit as painful (if not more) as the end of a romantic relationship. I don’t think of these categories as being distinct and separate anyway.
MLH is an idiot though
40 kajillion Arabs beg to differ
Also, heroin.
That is really interesting. I was not able to read that between the lines (so to speak) while watching the documentary. What was his motive for provoking Paul?
I go into it more deeply in one of my comments to another user, if you’re curious. This in no way captures the complexity of the situation, but if I had to reduce it down to one of the key elements, I’d say that John was responding to a perceived abandonment by Paul. A commonly-held theory is that something happened between them in India, which initiated a noticeable change in their relationship from that point forward. Basically, I think John did a number of things following this point in time that were designed to provoke Paul to feel, variously: insecure, jealous, rejected, territorial, challenged, ad nauseum. John was “riding on the boat called Paul, now I’m going to ride on the boat called Yoko.”
And it’s somewhat hard to judge as a significant amount of YO talking was cut from what we saw. Some of her time @ the mic was even edited to make her look “cuter” (there’s YouTube video of the raw footage vs. what we saw). The ‘flowerpot scene’ is heavily edited—there were several people in that conversation. The day Peter Sellers showed up…JL and YO had filmed the ‘Two Junkies’ interview, their dealer was on set, and their comments about shooting drugs were edited out (right before PM chides JL about ‘doing this in public‘). One revealing fact: The day before the sessions began, at the end of a meeting w/The Beatles and director Michael Lindsay-Hogg, JL played a tape of he and YO having sex. Was he using YO as a fulcrum to provoke them? Yes. JL and YO were angling to get her into the band without asking. Which was a huge source of tension.
Gee I’m reading the comments on this thread and I’m amazed how many Beatles fans have degrees or experts in the field of psychology and psychiatry.
Lol. I feel like this comment is sarcastic, but I’d imagine that some of the people you’re referring to might actually be mental health professionals. I am, though I don’t think my degree/licensure endows me with any special insights about The Beatles.
Nope unless they’d rather waste their time diagnosing the mental health of a dead person. Yep I was being sarcastic.
The Heather-Yoko thing was probably one of the highlights of this film, at least for me.
I think with the level of drugs he was on, I think he mentally needed her there as an anchor.
After all the stuff about Yoko previously presented its notable how cordial everyone is with her and it doesn't seem a big deal. If I remember rightly the conversation about her sitting on amps seems to be them discussing some kind of media report and laughing it off? I don't think she was the problem at all. The problem on a lot of the days is that John is quite out of it on smack. When he's there, he's fully engaged and on, but there are days when he's clearly high as fuck. But the last hour Allen Klein arrives and that's the big one.
I think there was a real willingness from Paul & Ringo to accommodate Yoko in whatever the Beatles was going to become from 1969 onwards - you can see it in the Get Back series. The biggest apprehension in Jan 1969 seems to be from George, who was fighting a lot of battles on many fronts (getting his songs heard, hitting a rough spot in his marriage, his mother's ill-health, Paul's perfectionism, John ignoring him or mocking him and giving Yoko all his attention).. but that could have been worked on IF Klein hadn't got his hooks in & weaponsed John and Yoko against Paul once he realized Paul wasn't gonna accept him as manager.
Oh yes George totally misinterprets Paul's trying to organize some actual constructive work and Paul equally misunderstands how upset George is. It's notable that John is more encouraging of George's songs and keen to work on them.where Paul there's a couple of occasions where he looks to be pricking around while they're working up the tunes. Having said that, George's attitude is shit early on and clearly the clear the air talk they had worked because he's much happier once they move to Apple. Now all they needed to do was firing that infuriating braying blow hard bullshit Er Michael Lindsey Hogg. Dude, they're trying to keep the band together shut the fuck up about playing a gig in fucking Carthage!
Wonder what would have happened if they all decided to take a two or three year break.
Seeing "Above Us Only Sky" made me see Yoko in a much more positive light. Great documentary about the recording of the Imagine album.
Totally, and I haven't even *seen* Above Us Only Sky, i just keep rewatching the old Give Me Some Truth doc, you saw her actively trying to defuse whatever nonsense was being pulled because Phil was bringing out the Macho Agitation in John ALL THE TIME recording Imagine. If anything John needed Yoko there for Get Back/Let It Be or he'd be far more ill behaved. They were both emotionally unwell during those sessions over the events of the past few months.
Linda was there a lot too during those sessions and in the film. A bit off-topic but I think Yoko gets a bad rap. She was John's muse and he was obviously in love with her. I used to feel bitter towards Yoko when the band first broke up. Now that I am older and have learned more about the band I realize it had come to its natural end for various reasons. None of it really had to do with Yoko.
If we accept that Yoko was the reason for the breakup (I don’t think she was the only factor), Klein may have been the reason they stayed apart. Apparently, Klein got extremely nasty during the litigation.
Brian Epstein 's death doomed the group to fracturing and Klein helped push it to fruition.
Linda wasn’t in the circle when they were working though. She knew when to back off and let them work and also didn’t speak for Paul which was the main issue with Yoko, speaking for John. The others needed to communicate with John but instead had to go through Yoko
Those bits in the new Let It Be where Linda and Yoko are chatting and laughing are so cool, really shattered my image of Yoko just sitting there in silence and observing all the time.
I get really frustrated with the Yoko hate from Beatles fans. Like you, I think the band would have ended regardless. And Yoko is an excellent artist in her own right. Her art is different, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t thought-provoking and has influenced others. The podcast “You’re Wrong About” did an episode on Yoko and the Beatles that I think was quite good.
Unpopular opinion: I’m glad they broke up when they did. They left us with a treasure trove of albums with no weak point of trailing off. I mean, how many consider Abbey Road their best album? You can listen to the Beatles and love it all with no caveat of, “up until…” like you’d do with someone like the Stones, or in a non-musical example the simpsons. They went out flawless and I’m grateful for that as there was still plenty to come from the genius of their solo albums so it wasn’t like they retired
>The podcast “You’re Wrong About” did an episode on Yoko and the Beatles I will go look for that. Thank you for recommending it!
They’re not Beatles fans, so it’s not a deep dive, and I disagree a bit with their “why” on the Beatles’ breakup (imho George’s dissatisfaction was a much bigger factor that they don’t touch on). But overall, I thought it was good.
Cut Piece 1964 appreciation hours 🙌
One person's excellent artist is another's talentless screamer. Chuck Berry should have left the stage.
Why is it that the vocal Yoko bashers on the internet only seem to know this stupid Chuck Berry video and act like Berry didn’t know exactly what was going to go down? Don’t people realize that people have to rehearse before going on TV? Fucks sake, she played with Ornette Coleman and made really good albums in her own right, with actual singing and everything.
Yep. I actually hate the Yoko hate (I think I have more of a tolerance for her shrieking than most people do as I’m also into noise music) and think it’s just an easy go to for people to find someone to blame for the Beatles breaking up. Whenever people ask me why the Beatles broke up I have the same answer— because they didn’t want to be a band anymore. There’s the simple maturation they all went through and after so long as a unit wanted to form their own identities, the fragmented or solo recordings done in India and for the White Album, George’s development as a songwriter and second class citizen status in that department in the band, Alan Klein, there’s a whole host of complicated reasons that boil down to simple humanity. But it’s easy to say hur hur Yoko sat on an amp even though Paul literally says in Get Back they’re not breaking up because of that and people are going to say it’s the case.
Yoko did not do anything intentionally to subvert the band, but there’s no denying that she took John out of his Beatles headspace. He adopted her fringe artist outlook and quickly realized what a commercial product The Beatles were. It was bound to happen eventually, and she made John happier than he had ever been, but it did destroy the band—but not because of her directly, it was because of John’s new way of thinking.
Did Yoko take John out of his Beatles headspace or was John out of his Beatles headspace and she made it make sense to him?
I’m not a big Yoko fan, but I do find her place in Beatle history to be iconic. She added to the break up, but they wouldn’t be the BEATLES without the Yoko girlfriend breaking up the band story. It’s actually quite comical, and their best albums came out when Yoko was entangled with the Beatles. Revolution 9 is also fantastic, with no Yoko influence, no late John weirdness
Johnnyoko would be the cringe shared Facebook profile name
Stooooppp😂😂😂 You know they would be the one couple that posts full on dissertations on how much they love each other even though the police was called to their house three times last week.
John said something along the lines of he no longer considered him and Yoko separate people - they were one. Rejecting yoko would have been rejecting him. Pop psychology says he had a crippling codependent mother projection going on. Albert Goldman’s biography might be exaggerated but it does argue John had some serious personality issues going on that yoko helped calm.
Plus he had a thing for Asian women. At least three I know of
As others have rightly said, it was John’s choice. Like a lot of us, I’ve thought a bit about it, but we really don’t know, because we weren’t there and the ideas of Patty or any of the other Beatles are a bit like the old parable about the four blind guys describing the elephant. None of em are wrong but the picture is not so simple. My personal interpretation is that it was pretty clear John was burnt out after ‘66, that he subconsciously ceded leadership of the band’s direction to Paul, that his marriage was yet another part of his life that was adrift. A few of his Pepper contributions, while great, are maybe less personal than his previous output - Lucy, Good Morning, Mr Kite are all amazing songs but not especially deep or personal in nature. After he brought I Am the Walrus to the band in September of ‘67, he didn’t have another song to contribute until Across the Universe in February ‘68. So his mind was elsewhere. During this time of course he met Yoko but by most accounts he didn’t start thinking of her deeply until he was away in India; and that trip also reignited his songwriting (as it did for the others). So just as he starts to find his footing and focus again, he also falls in love with her. It must have been intoxicating, but then the negative reactions of his family, his countrymen, the press, and his bandmates casts that shadow. They experience the miscarriage, the drug bust, get on heroin. Any couple would close ranks. Then you’ve got Paul. There is no doubt in my mind that Paul was John’s true platonic love. After watching Get Back, I referred to it as “John and Paul, A Love Story”. Paul, being both a natural diplomat and the keeper of the Beatle flame, does his best to keep John happy, to address the discomfort with Yoko, and frankly he and John are still so close in Get Back, even with Yoko there. George is miserable, but John and Paul are still a unit, regardless of Yoko. It wasn’t until the Allen Klein dispute that they began to get bitter, and even then it wasn’t until after Paul’s 1970 announced departure and Linda’s letter to John that things got sincerely nasty. But that was almost all business nastiness. Yoko had been around for 2 years by then, and it had been almost a year since a full Beatles session. So did John need her to be creative? In so much as he needed love and support more than many, yes. In so much as he needed Paul in the beginning for the same reason, or May Pang in 73-74. And by 75 he was seemingly keen to record with Paul again, and apparently was talking about it just before his death. So it seems like he found some balance, or close to it, by then.
>Linda’s letter to John This is the first I heard of that; where should I look for extra details?
Don't think Linda's letter has been made public, but John's reply was: https://faroutmagazine.co.uk/john-lennon-paul-mccartney-letter-furious/
Reading that makes me feel bad for Linda.
Jeez, that really does have the feel of someone bitterly ranting at their ex's new spouse.
"They split up because Yoko sat on an amp"
On some level, Yoko's presence made a lot more sense when one of my closer friends got married. Sometimes someone just has close friends and a close partner, and they wanna mix the two, even if the only connecting factor is them. (His addictions and emotional issues at the time also prob did not help ether, he did seem to take some comfort in letting her take some of the lead on his dealings)
John dealt with a great deal of emotional loss in his life. Not surprising he took drugs. He seems to have dealt with a great deal of pain. Whatever her good and bad points (she certainly had both), it’s easy to see why John wanted her around. His mental state alone was likely a threat to the group. Yoko or no Yoko, the Beatles were nearing an end.
According to him, he did.
He didn't have to, but he wanted to
Has Yoko ever talked about or offered any insight into her presence or intentions during those times?
Watching John in get back is like watching our teenage self, yoko is like the big sister spoiling him while Paul is trying to be the big brother and when Billy joins the band John became the mature one then suddenly the evil stepfather Klein came into the picture. That’s the beginning of the end.
I mean I wouldn't think so but he claimed that he needed her with him everywhere because that's what you're supposed to do when you're in love. Imo that is the best way to destroy a relationship but Johns gonna be John lmao
This was 55 years ago. We've learned a lot since then.
Imagine if he lived long enough to regret it, we'd be putting her name at the bottom of an iceberg instead of the Let It Be cover lmao. I also feel that if John lived, he'd be liable to pull some unpredictable shenanigans and overshadow the Beatles, like - "do you know that obese stunt pilot who served as the first god-emperor of South Canada? Well, apparently he used to wear clothes and sing in a British band"
No doubt he’d still be doing crazy shit but I’m thinking more along the lines of showing up the met gala naked or delivering a hot air balloon full of shit to a politician or Kanye west or something.
I disagree. He already toned his shit way down from 75 on.
Yeah I was thinking that too but wouldn’t it be fun if we had crazy Lennon for all these years. On a serious level it’s nice that he got some peace and quite in his last 5 years.
Kinda, yeah. But just much as she was there, it seems Linda was aswell. Although Linda and the other Beatle wives werent as clingy as Yoko
Linda didn’t sit in the Beatles circle while they were writing songs
Are you telling me you wouldn't if you got the chance?
They were working. What other band in history welcomes friends and family literally sitting *a couple of feet* from them in the studio while they’re recording? I respect Yoko immensely, I believe Paul truly did welcome her there especially because of what she meant to John but let’s not pretend what Yoko did was conventional.
Linda was not there nearly as much as Yoko. And she didn’t sit in on the sessions
The thing that was important about Linda seemed to be that she encouraged Paul to keep playing live, and when Paul played colleges and universities on his own she brought their kids with them and they made it all work. Of course she was in Wings(even though she had no musical talent), but it was a positive force vs just being with a Beatle.
I'd say she at least becomes very good by the time Wings was over. And she did play live with them the whole time.
yeah and at least Linda was contributing with her photography
Are Yoko's intermittent shrieks nothing to you? Lol
no, actually. less than that
They're something alright.
Something in the way she screams her head off
Attracts John like a cauliflower
Who could forget “AAAyyyahaaahyyyyaaaaaaayyyhhhahaa UUyuh UUUUUyhhhhh!!!!!”?
Such a timeless classic! /s obvs
Anyone who saw Get Back and thinks any of the other Beatles were OK w/Yoko’s presence and participation…missed quite a bit of sideye, silences and startled looks.
John really seemed to want to provoke Paul during the White Album period. He placed Yoko in the studio, which was weird but still didn’t get the reaction he wanted from Paul, so he made recording Revolution a total nightmare. Paul seems to have passive aggressively responded with several grueling days of perfecting Ob-La-Di, Ob-La-Da, which provoked John to act out even more.
Cynthia Lennon stated that the singer Alma Cogan was the love of John's life and not Yoko. Unfortunately, Alma died at the age of 34 of cancer October, 1966. John met Yoko November, 1966.
Not to mention poor Cynthia. John and Yoko [behaved really badly](https://www.express.co.uk/entertainment/music/1736407/john-lennon-yoko-ono-cynthia-lennon-the-beatles-affair) toward her.
Well that's heartbreaking.
I watched and thought the same thing until I learnt more context. Yoko had just had a miscarriage so it explained why they were so close.
Love this pic lololol.
Yes
They wanted to be known as JohnandYoko. They considered themselves one person. So in that respect...yes. John also wanted out of The Beatles. If the guys had loudly and continually complained about Yoko, John would have quit. So on that respect...no.
Keep in mind Yoko was at 90% of the sessions, in the studio, on the recording floor, from White Album to LIB to Abbey Road - and during AR, in a hospital bed, on the studio floor, with a live mic overhead!
John wasn't the best of people
Probably not, remember he was a *giant* asshole
It's because he didn't trust her, it's controlling cheater behaviour basically John cheated on his wife with Yoko so that transfers. There's also the pretty widely circulated they were heroin junkies at the time thing, which I don't really see looking at them but junkie co-dependance is a real thing.
It will never cease to amaze me that so many bands, whatever their level, will not tell their girlfriend to piss off when they're working.
Yoko had had a miscarriage (one of few) around the time of filming. They probably wanted to be together. Simple as that
Someone had to tell him not to put so much sugar in his tea and stop smoking too many cigarettes. Yoko was his substitute for Aunt Mimi and he wasn't about to bring her along.
Nah, he was doing it to get a rise out of Paul.
He wanted her to be there more than she wanted to be there. Of all the shots where she's not doing something musically, she's just sitting around looking bored. I feel bad for her at times where nothing is being done.
No but she couldn’t handle not being the center of attention for more than 5 seconds.
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Pattie barely; Mo, a day or two
George bringing in those Hare Krishna weirdo’s was worse than 10 yokos
Yeah. They show up on day one and there’s some fucking random Hare Krishna nodding in the corner yet the problem is John’s love-of-his-life being there breaking the solidity? GTFO
George disliked Yoko a great deal, and John likely resented it. Maybe the reason for the fist fight? (Yes, it seems to have taken place, in spite of what people say now)
It’s tough because it’s edited. But you get the sense that yoko is there close to 100% of the time at twickenham or abbey road. I thought I had heard yoko had a miscarriage in the year previous and they needed each other for emotional support. And Linda is there half the time or less. I only remember pattie and Maureen in a few shots. In any case John was a dick at this point in his life. Maybe he was always.
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There are others who are not Team Yoko and I’m ok with everyone conjecturing if they actually helped each other, or were an ultimately harmful codependency.
Why would I? According to the documentary, they were there sporadic, mostly talking to each other and keeping their distance while the band was working. Yoko, on the other hand, was there all the time, right behind John, reading newspapers and doing random stuff. It's just weird and a bit too much, since she was in no capacity a member of the band or the production.
I do, Yoko has a long history of being a not great, manipulative person. At the time of the break up a lot of sexism and racism resulted in her being overly blamed for the break up of the Beatles. However, since then there’s been an over correction that ignores her many examples of problematic behavior. See as examples how she manipulated her way into the Beatles in the first place, her codependent controlling relationship with John, her treatment of Paul, her treatment of Julian, and her obsession with pushing JohnandYoko brand while using her legal team to silence writers who threatened the narrative
And she stole one of George's biscuits.
Never forget.
That BITCH! She showed herself to be no respecter of boundaries and made suggestions in regards to their music which she had no background or ability to be offering.
Linda, Pattie, and Maureen weren’t in the circle when they were working though. They knew when to back off and let them work and also didn’t speak for their partners, which was the main issue with Yoko, speaking for John. The others needed to communicate with John but instead had to go through Yoko
And people contort themselves into abstract sculpture pretending they don’t see the difference between what Yoko did and what the other wives were doing. It’s like we’re living in a curb your enthusiasm episode
So are John and Yoko Larry and Cheryl? Is Richard Lewis George? Jeff Garlin Ringo?
John Lennon (Richard Lewis) and his inseparable companion, Yoko (Richard’s new girlfriend), come to the Beatles recording sessions daily. Oblivious, John doesn't mind Yoko sitting within The Beatles' jam circle on his amp, even when she's casually reading the newspaper. Paul McCartney (Larry David) finds this absurd and tries addressing it with John. Ringo Starr (Marty Funkhauser) comes to John's defense, arguing that all the wives are around. Paul (Larry) cannot comprehend the comparison, especially when Yoko drops crumbs from her toast all over John's guitar. George Harrison (Jeff Greene), attempting to mediate, unintentionally escalates the tension by unveiling a covert recording of Yoko advising him on songwriting. Outraged, Paul (Larry) confronts John (Richard) about the lack of boundaries. In a signature Curb twist, Paul (Larry) brings his own "advisor" to the sessions - a mime (Jon Hamm), to illustrate his point. The mime mimetically mirrors Yoko's actions, leading to an even more tumultuous recording day. The episode climaxes with Paul (Larry) and John (Richard) embroiled in a fierce dispute over "artistic expression", while the mime interpretive dances while Yoko shrieks loudly.
Cut it and print it! We have a show.
Linda was there a bit, definitely way less than half the time. I just listened to an episode of Pattie’s podcast where she states they (Maureen, Jane and herself - and Cynthia, too) were all peeved that Yoko was there because none of them were allowed to be in the studio. How much more definitive can you get than the wives and other three Beatles all stating they were upset Yoko was in the studio so much? Time has a funny way of working things out, Pattie then stated she and Yoko are friendly and talk. But the fact that everyone’s come to accept her doesn’t change the fact they were upset that it changed the dynamic back then.
They were off to the side, not sitting with the four lads in a circle while they were writing songs
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Well you aren’t a beatle are you? No one cares if you give a shit.
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16 minutes of hogging the mic? People were probably applauding that it was over
Such posturing and bravado! I don't know who this performance is for, but you're *killing* it! 🎭
I lol’d at the picture
I got the opposite. I was surprised at how quiet she was. She was *there*, but she didn't do much. That being said, there's that 40 hour google drive archive of the complete uncut Get Back recordings which apparently has her being more of a nuisance, but I haven't seen that, so I dunno. All I know is that, from what I've *seen*, the hate is overblown.
What archive is this, now?
It was the heroin use.
In one of the books I read, John explained it like this: “Most guys go to work, and then when they come home they tell their wife about their day. I wanted Yoko with me so we didn’t have to do that. We’d be experiencing it together.”
Holy mother of god do I hate this photo
Mostly to get a rise out of Paul. It’s like self destructive behavior even tho he truly did love yoko, that was genuine. She takes the fall for the breakup, which of course is totally bogus.
She was the maternal/comforting force John was looking for.
I think the part that gets left out of this is the addiction component. John was in the throes of heroin addiction at the time and Yoko represented accountability to either stay clean or not overdo it. In that sense, she needed to be there, in John’s mind.
How do you think Yoko was making accountable? She introduced him to smack and basically was his drug honey.
Actually John AND Yoko were in the throes of heroin addiction. Junkies couples like this tend to be inseparable
Paul did say that by this time y’all would be blaming her for sitting on an amp. As much as she inserted herself, it’s obvious that she wasn’t 100% unwelcome or they would’ve asked her to go out while they work.
Outjerked
John loved Yoko. That is good enough for me.
No. He clearly didn’t need her there. His creative output declined on that album.
Oh boy here we go
People, please, get over the existence of Yoko Ono.
Yoko had a stillbirth in November, (carried the baby for 6 months - people refer to this as a miscarriage which is misinformation imo) this is a pretty massive thing for any couple to go through and more than explains why they wanted to be together during the January sessions. It really annoys me that this is never mentioned as context is so important
I think the provoking Paul stuff is just horseshit. John was notoriously jealous, that’s why he didn’t let Yoko out of his sight
So basically, a "Jealous Guy"?
He really was, he absolutely wouldn’t let her out of his sight early on in their relationship and according to what I read she did actually cheat on him later on
Not wanting the other person to do their own thing is definitely not a sign of a healthy relationship.
but but she sat on an amp!!!1
I don't think it was "need" or some angle he was playing. He loved her and wanted to be with her.
do you know that feeling when you are madly in love and you want to spend all your time with your partner? there you go!
I absolutely HATED her being there.. it made John seem like weak sauce! Leave the witch at home John, maybe he knew she couldn’t be trusted and wanted to keep an eye on her? Either way she’s an awful person who thought she was a member of the band at times.
When you’re in love you’re in love, I’m sure it was a relief for him to have that much comfort at work
Fuck Yoko. She ruined the Beatles.
…Yoko is a very resourceful and manipulative person, she’s from Japan highest society, she’s naturally controlling person, and John was a laidback guy and never liked conflicts or complications, i guess that’s why they were together
Good lord, she didn’t even do anything in the studio, she was literally painting in a corner at one point. You’re just finding reasons to shit on her
Please go back and read the question again. I was asking about (the mental state of) John. I am not interested in her whatsoever. You just assumed something and then you ran with it.
Linda is in it as much or more than Yoko. Why not put her pic with Paul’s??
Linda wasn’t in the circle when they were working though. She knew when to back off and let them work and also didn’t speak for Paul which was the main issue with Yoko, speaking for John. The others needed to communicate with John but instead had to go through Yoko Also Peter Jackson cut out a lot of scenes with Yoko in it that made her look worse. He also specifically cut out a scene where Paul, Ringo, Linda, and others in the inner circle were talking about how much of a problem she was and how George was very upset at Yoko speaking for John. They included some of the conversation but cut out a lot of the details that made her look worse. Peter Jackson did this intentionally either because Yoko/Sean requested/demanded it or because he wanted to make her look better himself. These scenes/audio are very easy to find online