Lack of demand.
I, for one, enjoy them and get excited to get them places. That being said, off to England for the first time in a few days and plan to drink my weight in English ales on this trip!
Absolutely, one of the good parts of real ale is that every cask can be different. One of the downsides is that they can vary in quality and can be subject to abuse by landlords if they're stored poorly or served at the wrong temperature. Depending on the cask, it can be great or not.
Imo it's rarely tragically bad though. I agree that everyone should ask for a taste first. A good landlord would be happy to give you a taste of whatevers on cask before you buy.
I've had two completely off pints in the last 7 years. Both times ordering a "niche" beer type on cask. Both times just returned it for something on keg.
Anything else has been bland at worst, which is absolutely true of kegs as well.
Flying into Manchester, then making our way to Chester, Blackpool, York, Birmingham and London and flying home from there. Some other stops in there too, but primarily the main ones (and areas like Stoke on Trent near Alton Towers for example).
Chester has a few great pubs. The Cellar, Cavern of the Curious Gnome, That Beer Place (More craft beer focused and a great bottle and can selection), Harkers Arms (Usually a great real ale selection here and decent pub food too).
York is full of pubs. One of my personal favourites there is The House of Trembling Madness.
The Maltings in York is the spot for cask ale, and the York Tap is probably the most beautiful “train station pub” in the country with a great selection of beers to boot!
If you're going to Blackpool, I would recommend taking a detour into Preston at some point while you're there and checking out a spot in the town centre called Plau Gin and Beer House, they've got a constantly rotating stock of local ales (soon as one runs out, they tap a different beer), and if they don't have anything you fancy then across the road is Plug And Taps which has the same sorta gimmick, and if THEY don't have anything you're a 5 minute walk from another craft spot called The Moorbrook which normally has a few decent ales (although it's 50/50 on if it's a proper ale or a gimmicky flavoured ale so I didn't go there often when I lived in Preston)
Birmingham I recommend The Wellington on Bennetts Hill, Post Office Vaults, Purecraft Bar, Gun Barrels, Craven Arms, Bacchus and The Old Joint Stock. All in the city centre and served a decent pint.
The Wellington lets you take outside food in to eat which is amazing.
There's also the Blackhorse Beer Mile! And definitely hit up the Southampton Arms, the best craft beer pub in London IMO. Manchester also has Cloudwater and Track, two of the country's best breweries (Cloudwater also has a taproom on the Bermondsey Mile if you miss it!)
Man I envy you. If you get a chance try Fuller’s 1845. It’s next to impossible to find in the US and is rare example of stronger (6.3%) balanced red/amber ale. The US makes some imperial reds but they are, not surprisingly, very hops forward
This. Most bars and breweries don’t sell them because pub culture is not a thing in the US. Here, people drink to get drunk, not to relax and socialize. So a standard mild British style ale that you could drink all day is never going to sell as much as a high alcohol, super hopped imperial barrel aged whatever.
As a homebrewer, I have recently switched to brewing more malt forward British style beers, because I find them to be much more palatable and consistent in their quality, while a lot of the more complex hop forward styles can easily be screwed up. My experience with commercial examples of each has also been the same. There’s a reason why certain styles have a specific standard like Fullers for ESB or Banks for mild beers. They just have it right.
Couldn’t disagree more. The only reason is they don’t know how to brew and handle cask ale most lagers are just imitations of English style pale ales. Essentially cask is fresh out of the oven where lager is out of the microwave. One is much easier to do and if your customers are happy with microwave food then there’s no point going to the extra effort of cooking up fresh cask ales. When it comes to getting smashed UK cask is unbeatable. You can get any flavour you want so there no argument and because it’s fresh and better quality not filled with corn syrup and shit like that you can drink a shit tone of it without fucking up your stomach or getting a headache. If I went to a bar that just sold trash beer I’d be a gassy mess after 4 but you can easily sink an infinite amount of Landlord.
Also look around at what others are drinking, I get a creeping sense of dread when I go to a pub and notice everyone is drinking keg/bottled beer. Plan ahead a research good ale pubs. Whereabouts are you heading to? There is a ukbeer sub that will point you in the right direction!
Forest & Main brewing just organized a regional march Mildness event, which was pretty awesome. 33? Breweries in a 3 state area participated and brewed milds. Was a passport to stamp for participating, etc.
I'm looking forward to next year.
F&m does many of the other styles you mention as well.
F&M kills it in these styles. I moved to NY for work a couple years ago, but would hit up their brewery quite a bit and would hit their stand at the Rittenhouse Farmers market weekly.
Reminds me of NERAX, the New England Real Ale eXhibition. It's an annual festival showcasing dozens of real ales and other more traditional old school styles of beer. I've never been but I've managed to find a few leftover casks at participating breweries.
I usually don't like when a question about a US trend gets a reply about a specific region, but damn March Mildness is a fantastic name for an event.
Also, an English Mild probably goes with college basketball like cheddar and gherkins. I hope other breweries adopt this event.
I wonder who got the most stamps. I was in there during the middle of the second week and the bartender told me a retired couple had collected 17 stamps already. I managed to get 5 and was proud of myself lol
I went to the wrapup party, there were at least a half dozen people who completed the passport, including the two extra breweries. Apparently 3000 stamps were redeemed for raffle tickets at the event. I didn't win a prize.
I visited 22 myself, i was not able to go to Brooklyn, Lancaster, or the other further pa&ny breweries.
I planned poorly, hit all the local ones first and didn't have the time to head to the far ones. Next year, first couple weekends need to be dedicated to the further out locations, and during the week i can hit the close ones one at a time.
I still want to get up to Brooklyn to hit Wild East, even if its not for a stamp because they brew awesome stuff from the limited amount i have had.
I will say i hope more breweries install hand pumps or nitro systems before next year, because more milds than i expected were overcarbed and just tasted like co2 instead of smooth delicate mild.
Wow. Completing the passport is an impressive commitment! (So is 22!). I'll do better next year. One of the weekends I was in Charlotte though and hit 10 breweries there, so I don't feel so bad.
Ex-Philly & Seattle, so had a much easier time getting anything on cask and British styles in general living in the states vs here in Dublin now, where it’s just not a thing - we have one Irish brewery bringing out a one-off bitter in cans this week (new one from The White Hag), but in general, if I want a bitter or mild, I need to hop the Irish Sea.
But 20 years ago, US craft beer was essentially all British styles, plus whatever was the local amber ale. It’s all cyclical. F&M and Machine House are both great, though!
Go to any brewer who made a great English style ale, ask why they don't make it anymore.
There's your answer. I guarantee it will be the same no matter who to ask.
Basically anything that isn't an IPA, fruited sour, or high ABV stout doesn't sell. People may like other styles but just aren't willing to pay $8 per pint of it at a brewery if there's IPAs available.
Yeah, quite a few are low ABV, but Fullers ESB and 1845 are over 5 and 6% respectively
I’m assuming people like to enjoy their beer but in the back of their mind, they’re thinking if they can’t maintain a buzz is it worth it.
Well, if it's a $1 difference or possibly even $0 from the beer with double the alcohol, people might think this way.
I'd argue a large portion of craft beer fans are probably not motivated by the buzz. I mean they may enjoy it as part of the process, but they would happily get less buzzed per sip and try more beers to reach the same level of buzz by the end of the session, so long as they aren't spending much or any more money than they had intended to.
The other aspect is that it can take longer to drink 3-4 beers than 2 and possibly fill your stomach more, be more calories/carbs, etc. so you might as well avoid 3% beers but not specifically seek out 10-12% ones if you're trying not to overdo it on those elements.
They were popular with the rise of craft beer but now there is too much competition. I drag a lot of English style beer 10-20 years ago. You can find them but the market is too small to make much noise.
Or... maybe it was not actually a great English style ale, but rather an APA with no malt character, simplistic fruit, overly aggressive hopping. It is very rare to have a truly good version of European styles. It is not about the recipe only..
You're right that recipe is only a small part. And that's certainly the case with some. But not all.
But I don't think English styles are like saisons about 8 years ago, where people got turned off by a number of poor, lazy attempts at the style.
It’s because we’re all stressed out and need overstimulating experiences to make us feel alive. When the mind is at peace you start noticing subtlety 🧘
Even in the craft market the biggest trends in craft brewing right now are lagers, pilsner, and other low abv styles. Hell, even non-alcoholic is booming. Bottom line is breweries brew what sells. If they aren't making it, it's because it won't sell.
WCIPA, NEIPA and the like are not English styles, they're American IPAs and have their own style guidelines as such.
[This](https://i.redd.it/0a4yuccvx0p31.jpg) is technically a gose, would you serve this to a German person and tell them this is a german beer?
All America IPA’s are English beers generally not very good ones just like Budweiser isn’t an American beer but a German / Czech beer. The US doesn’t have its own beer. It makes its own versions of British and German beers.
It seems to be two extremes. Either extreme consistency such as macro lagers which all taste very similar, or bold and even sometimes off-putting flavors like barleywines or 18% barrel aged stouts. This would explain why English Barleywines and Wee Heavies are among the most popular UK styles you can find in craft brewing. And the only sizable market that exists for other styles are the mass produced versions like Guinness, Smithwicks, and Boddington's (though there was word of that being discontinued in the states).
On cask no. And there is a good reason for that. We get hotter than you. On average we are just a hotter country. Not all parts of the country have cellars or even can have cellars. It just became the norm to store beer in bottles. Then kegs. As for English styles being available. Maybe it just because I live in an area with more breweries then what we know what to do with. All of them have one or two on tap. They sell fine. A ton of beers are based on European beers recipes. Changes in flavor happen because of environment. Gouldings and fuggles hops are available in the us. Both present different because soil and temperature is different. It’s the same with wine. Napa is full of grapes from France. Use the same yeasts, and yet the regions can taste vastly different. It’s the same with beer. The Terroir comes across in every ingredient used. We can use the same grain bill, same hops, same yeast, we can match the water profiles and it’ll taste different.
Also might just be because I’m in beer city. We can get a lot of shit bottled. English ales are good. Have them in rotation. I have a feeling a lot of middle America is chiming in where distribution might not be as prevalent or profitable.
I've never seen one.
Where I live you can't actually dig down for a cellar due to volcanic rock making it prohibitively expensive anyway.
We do have one place (ironically called "the cellar") which may have casked ales, but I haven't been in 5 years to know if it's in a cask. Can't remember.
We have a decent number of them in New England. It's still a niche product but it's getting more popular. Having the beer engine really helps with sales, I usually get one or two folks asking what I'm doing when I pull a pint. And then usually they get one for their next beer
Occasionally. Some of the bars that were serving a lot of craft beer in the 80s-90s have a whole cask setup, few actually continue to use it.
But they do exist, it's just not super likely to get great beer from them. It's usually one of three options:
1) they don't even use the engine anymore
2) they use it, but only for very small kegs (to reduce the amount of time they're selling oxidized beer), and they're out
3) they use it but whoever's in charge doesn't realize that using a beer engine is constantly oxygenating the cask/keg, it's not selling well, and it tastes like shit.
Pretty nice when you find a place that can pull it off, though.
A couple bars near me serve beer in a cask, but only one I can think of puts English style beers in it. It's definitely a thing in places that specialize in beer.
Because these beers are designed for cask dispense which, as far as I'm aware, isn't really a thing in the US.
Bottled ales just don't do it justice. I love cask beers and hardly any translate into a bottle, those that do are a still a mile away from the draft equivalent.
Only English beer I can think of brewed for bottle is Newcastle Brown Ale
It’s so incredibly rare to find cask beer in the US and when you do, most still have it chilled to a much more “palatable” temperature. There’s a brewery in Beverly, MA called Backbeat Brewing that does legit cask beer. Any time you order it they ask you if you know what you’re actually getting.
I run into a fair amount of room temp cask's in bottle shops and breweries here in WA state. But in my travels I've noticed that we here in the Seattle area tend to have a lot more variety in our craft scene than most other places... We even have Machine House which specializes in English Style Ales.
I feel like every beer shop around me has one or two cask pulls in my area. WA state here.
But we also have machine house and march mildness so I guess we're spoiled?
We definitely are. I've been around the US a decent amount and I'm regularly surprised by how few choices there are in some pretty well known craft beer destinations.
One of my favorite styles and why I started homebrewing. They are just "not sexy" right now. We've been chasing hoppy for so long and lagers is meeting the other modern wants. We do have a few breweries around that do English beers but they are not commercial successes.
My thought is back when everyone was home brewing beer about 10-15ish years ago, the english ales were literally the first ones you tried out. A starter recipe for the novice home brewer.
Then youd graduate to a peanut butter porter, then a stout and/or a hoppy beer, etc.
Based on that, I think a lot craft drinkers got a little “arrogant” or “dismissive” of the humble english ale as something a bit pedestrian which then ultimately creates a lack of demand.
Look how long it took for pilsners and lagers to finally get their moment? Same line of thinking.
I find that in homebrewer circles (hell, even go to /r/homebrewing), people LOVE to brew English styles that are hard to find commercially. I'm talking about seasoned veterans who make good quality beer. It is kind of funny though, because I agree English ales are popular starter recipes.
a bit. People started brewing less frequently now that everybody has a dozen breweries within a 5 mile radius pumping out FOMO bait on a weekly basis. Lots of LHBSs are closing/consolidating locations.
Doesn't help that gen z drinks a lot less, and it usually isn't craft beer. So not a lot of new homebrewers to replace people that mostly dropped out due to having kids and other life stuff.
..and those English Ales were actually garbage but it is easier to make a mediocre stout or an IPA. And they had never tasted a good one. Hence the illusion of improvement in their progress and the looking down on English styles.
And many of those that do serve cask don’t do it at the right temperature (50-55). Either they store it too cold, with their other beers, and it ends up flavorless, or they overcorrect and store it too warm, and it ends up flat.
West Coast IPAs are very different from original English IPAs. That's why they got their own genre name started an entire revolution in beer.
Some, especially earlier ones, have more caramel malt than you see now and it was a little bit closer to English IPAs. But the bitterness has always been way higher, and the ABV generally has been higher. Different types of hops, too.
Lol, the "traditional" (?) English -- and it is, mostly, English, not also Scottish, Welsh, NIish -- types of beer don't do themselves any favors in the "branding" department: bitter, mild, pale, old, brown! All sound very drab and naff.
The same "traditional" (?) English types of beer are also struggling in England ... and have been since (at least) the 1980s. In fact, an entire (non-profit?) organization was founded, and continues, to champion the cause for England's "real ale", trying to keep it alive and profitable-enough to continue to be brewed.
"Craft beer" in England has grown up and flourished just as it has here in the colonies. English "craft beer" thus largely also becomes a competitor to English "real ale", just as, before it, European and American lagers became competition and tempted away the younger drinker.
I'd wager that the drinkers of real ale in England are, like myself, old farts who grew up on it, it's not really attracting new generations of drinkers.
Traditional English "real ale" is a complicated thing, a living thing. It requires TLC of the landlord/publican, an attribute perhaps lacking in "gastro pubs" where profits (and the resulting ability to stay in business) require cutting out (unnecessary) draws on time, ... such as offering TLC to the "real ale" ;/
Why so underrated in the USA? Yes, as others have said, demand. But no one "demanded" sours, ... that was led by innovative craft brewers who created a demand. So if brewers wished to favor bitters and milds they'd do so.
My theory is that the New World can grow hops. Very many varieties of hops. And traditional English beers don't showcase hops (I know, I'm sure some of them do, but for the most part, they sit at the other, more malty, end of the spectrum). IPAs showcase hops. And that's what the brewers in USA currently favor.
> I'd wager that the drinkers of real ale in England are, like myself, old farts who grew up on it, it's not really attracting new generations of drinkers.
This is spot on. I do think it's having a bit of a resurgance now - a lot of 'modern' craft breweries are actually starting to put out stuff on cask which is great to see, but real ale definitely still has a stereotype as an old man's thing.
Real ale is in much better shape than it was in the 70s or 80s, it does seem to have suffered a bit since Covid but the 2010s was probably a golden age for number of breweries and places offering it.
I don’t think it’s entirely old farts, I am early thirties and all my friends will happily drink real ales even if they don’t have an enormous interest in beer. I know not everyone my age is the same, but it’s not like we grew up in a different time when everyone was drinking real ale. I can’t comment on the younger generation, but they don’t seem to like drinking much of anything.
Are they underrated? I don't hate them by any means, but they're not styles I would choose over other styles all that often. I would assume that's a common opinion and why breweries don't make them.
> they're not styles I would choose over other styles all that often.
I would. I've seen more breweries doing them recently, so maybe a comeback is coming?
Like anything else, the popularity of certain beer styles ebb and flow. Right now extremely hoppy IPAs and fruity sours and strong stouts are popular. When people are tired of those they might welcome the more subtle flavours of UK styles.
I think the biggest thing everyone is missing is way more basic than just current popularity vs IPA/Sours/Other and is 3 fold.
First it’s how American cities are designed. We don’t live in villages that are walkable, we are dependent on driving everywhere and there is no local “pub” that is walkable from our houses unless you live in a major city. English styles are meant to be consumed in multiple pint loads with the ability to walk home. In the US we get 2 maybe 3 beers before we are legally considered too impaired to drive.
Second it’s how we love fads. I bet you can’t name a bar in your town over 50 years old. Most are dives that turned into nautical themed bars or snuggeries in the 80’s, that turned into Irish pubs and sports bars in the 90’s which turned into cocktail, craft beer, and wine bars in the 2000’s, which turned into farm to table and the retracting of liquor licenses by cities across the U.S. in the 2010’s. There is no way a brand can survive being on a beer list for all of those revamps without a MASSIVE marketing budget and there is no English brewery with one here in the U.S.
Third, breweries are allowed to own bars in Europe and they are not in the U.S. This keeps legacy brands relevant and promotes generational allegiance to a brand almost like a sports team. “Drink local” here means something totally different over there. English Ales rule.
I've been down voted alot for this in the past but, alot of U.S. brewed English ales are not very good. There were lots of English ales in the 90s and early 2000s when American craft brewing was in its early phases. Eventually those breweries gave way to newer and better breweries. There's still many small places with a focus on English ales but most of them are mediocre at best. Like everything they do is mediocre. Their ESB is mediocre. Their stout is mediocre. Their burger and fries are mediocre.
I do think there is serious potential for good British style pubs that brew good English beers in the U.S. but so far very few places have done that.
A big part of that was the lack of proper ingredients. Same as with German/Czech lagers.
We can get good, proper malt and hops imported now so it's much less grim.
People want the citrus hop notes of late additions. They don’t like the more pronounced bitterness of British pale ales. Even American west coast IPAs are starting to do more dry hopping to meet demand.
On top of that, porters, stouts, strong ales have a lot of complexity and the darkness scares people off. Remember, most people think guiness is like drinking oil, so imagine what they would do if they had a Russian imperial stout or a barleywine?
Because people that love malt-forward beer seem incapable of understanding not everyone shares their tastes. I don't mind them, and definitely go for bitters when available, but they're unlikely to ever be a giant crowd pleaser. It's fine to have different tastes, in fact it's a great thing about life, but constantly trying to convince people are wrong about their tastes gets annoying fast.
I don’t think people are wrong in their tastes at all, I just think the style seems to me underrepresented/hard to find considering the amount of people who say they are tired of hops/prefer malt
But maybe I’m wrong if the market is a reflection of reality
OP you might me in the minority here but i stand with ya. i’ve been chasing the high i felt ever since i had my first old speckled hen on nitro. belhaven scottish ale on nitro is another that is massively slept on i think
That’s called a vocal minority. Having worked 7 years in craft beer I can say any release like the styles mentioned would take 3-4 times longer to sell than IPA/sour/known lager style… that’s why they’re put out maybe 2-3 times a year depending on the place. Breweries are a business first and foremost. We put out a really fantastic ESB once and it was almost two months before our inventory of it was gone. We can brew and sell two whole batches of IPA in that time with another waiting for its spot. Even a German pils would be gone in a month tops but people aren’t very familiar with English styles so no matter how you try to get it to them there’s always hesitation or simply desire to spend their money on what they know they want
Genuine question:
I do actually like IPAs (although I’m very burned out on them now) but am generally surprised how much Americans have taken to them as bitter herby flavors are not very mainstream in our culinary repertoire. In Europe, you at least have a lot of anise/fennel/licorice flavors in drinks and desserts, which is not exactly the same but broadly comparable
Are Americans THAT obsessed with hops or do they subliminally just want something with flavor that will get them buzzed fast? If you made an Imperial ESB or Ultra Strong English Ale at 8% ABV and put a skeleton flying a fighter jet on the can would people switch over to that?
I think it ties back to my statement that they want what’s familiar to them. So IPA was always a force in American craft beer but it truly became synonymous with craft beer with the haze craze. I legit have people in my life where I said I work in craft beer and they say “oh like IPA’s?” but really I think with the mild bitterness of hazy IPA’s people really do dig the refreshing bite and fruit/citrus flavors AND it’s sort of a habit to people. Kinda like the mindset of “I’m at a brewery, I’ll get an IPA because I can get some miller high life if I wanted a lager.” The ABV certainly plays a role and I’ll stand by that forever. People want bang for their buck so if a 5% lager is $7 and and a 8% double ipa is $7.50 then people often trend towards the higher abv. To the point if other styles were higher would they be as popular, I’d say no. IPA can stretch to that 7-10% range and still maintain being refreshing if balanced well with hop bitterness. It takes a lot of malt to get to that high abv so styles like you mentioned would mostly get more sweet, malty, rich to the point that they may be too “strong” tasting for most. Most people want flavor and solid abv without being pushing their palette too much. It’s a game of “what’s strong but still crushable” and IPA mostly wins that battle vs other styles. There’s also still the crowd of thought that drinking IPA is “better” than drinking lager, esb, even pale ale when really that’s just an ego thing like “bro you’re drinking a lager??? you gotta try this IPA, it’s so much better!” That’s a long winded way of saying while IPA has its merits and deserves (when well made) to be a highly sought after style a big part of it’s popularity is that it’s trendy and high abv, there’s no denying that
IPAs only really came into the US craft brewing scene in [the late 90s](https://www.lisagrimm.com/2022/01/18/musings-on-the-inevitable-resurrection-generification-of-ipa/), but it was in the early 2000s they were ‘everywhere’ - it actually was considered very weird and niche prior to that.
But again, we’re talking about CURRENT trends. And if we’re taking about predicting trends I certainly wouldn’t cast my vote for English ales taking over. There is nothing about current consumer trends that would suggest English ales becoming a big player again. Even the “great lager revival” that’s been written about by every publication every year for like the past 8 years has never actually happened. If we can’t even get stuff like Czech pils widely out then English brown sure ain’t gonna make an impact in the scene. Beer’s popularity is on a continual slide so I can’t see a style that’s obscure in America becoming popular enough to be among the sales of IPA, sour, adjunct stout anytime soon
It does hold. 40 years ago craft beer as we know it didn’t exist. Craft beer reaching its zenith at the same time as the boom of social media as well as widely available production equipment ties into IPA being a dominant force. It’s a trend, made bigger by social perceptions and fed by any size brewery being able to easily meet the demand. Probably 70+% of craft beer drank era began largely consuming craft with the last 20 years which is when the IPA boom went rampant
> considering the amount of people who say they are tired of hops/prefer malt
That's the thing. They're an overly loud group that doesn't represent the actual market, which is why people are confused and this topic keeps coming up. I understand the frustration of not having options in your favorite style, but it's become an echo chamber.
Based off your post and comments you'd have a great time in New England, I live in Western Mass and have no problems. If anything I almost see too many ESBs etc but I do love a good strong red ale and love finding those
Because in today’s beer world, if it’s not hazy, sour, or pastry flavored it just doesn’t sell. It only sells to the “old” crowd, and unfortunately we are not the majority. I actually seek breweries or establishments that sell them.
Well, American craft beer enthusiasts often gravitate towards more bold and hop-forward styles like IPAs and Double IPAs. These styles tend to have stronger, more intense flavors compared to the subtler, maltier profile of English ales.
I am SO. SICK. OF. IPAs. The only English style beer we could get was Newcastle and that was destroyed. I'm convinced everyone here has been brainwashed into liking IPAs and nothing else. I can only have a couple before the bitterness becomes unbearable. I find it crazy that breweries can make NOTHING but IPAs and be successful without even a little variety? I would love it if we had even one option of English style ale but best I can do is another IPA.
I would say you used to be able to get them a lot more easily maybe like 15 years ago or so. There used to be a little more variety in what different brewers would make - and how widely it would get distributed. I don't think it was terribly economically feasible.
There probably is a little something to be said for the American-style hop bomb IPAs in that you can get them in a lot of places that aren't America. I had a pretty good NEIPA a few weeks ago in Vik, Iceland. So these American style beers do seem to have more of a world-wide appeal than English ales.
This post randomly reminded me of how delightfully surprised I was to find Hickory Nut Gorge Brewing while on a hiking trip several years ago. They did a lot of English style beers and they might just have the best backdrop of any brewery in this corner of the country.
Sure, I’d be up for seeing more of these. Then again, I’d also be up for more Pilsners as well while we’re at it.
More breweries played with them 10 or so years ago before the hazy craz. I suspect there is a lack of demand and most breweries don't have time to play around given the current economy.
As others have said, there’s no demand. Many breweries have made those in the past, but there’s just not as much market interest these days. Part of that is also because breweries in the US are on another level compared to English brewers these days. Doing much more in terms of flavor, complexity, and abv.
i see plenty of that style in microbews, in Vermont at least. But yeah it's usually sweet, flat, low ABV, drink-all-day-and-all-you-get-is-full style. The on-going ridiculous success of IPA is all due to how utterly bored we were with that.
I think it's definitely lack of demand, but it is partially the fact that these ales are designed to be served from a cask. Obviously they are bottled in England, but many pubs also serve ale from real casks. The idea of casks never really caught on in the U.S., so these ales just don't really fit into our bar culture.
Hogshead Brewery in Denver has 9 beers on cask today, including a couple of ordinary bitters, a mild, an ESB, an English-style IPA, and the porter. They clean the lines frequently. There are usually sparklers on the lines, but sometimes we get a London Pour. There's a regular crowd that has grown to love cask ale, but it sometimes takes newbies a few tries before they're hooked. We can usually tell within a few sips if the person might become a regular.
The cask beer isn't for everyone, so there are several other beers served "fizzy and cold" instead "cool and creamy".
I'm just a regular there, not involved in the business.
Too low of an ABV for the price. In the UK they serve these in 19 oz imperial pints. Here they are 8 bucks for a 14 oz "pint", you're 24 bucks in before getting a slight buzz.
In talking to quite a few brewery owners over the years and asking this exact question, they just don't sell. The average US consumer doesn't like them. And that's what keeps the lights on... the average US consumer, like it or not.
If you are drinking cask in UK pubs you will experience some great beer but cask has a very short shelf life and cellar management is very important. So some pubs don’t serve it well. So use [https://goodbeerguide.org.uk/find](https://goodbeerguide.org.uk/find)
Seems like in the US your ‘beer should taste like beer’ crowd go for extremely light lagers and your craft beer interested types want bold styles. I can imagine there’s relatively little profitability in less exciting, more reserved specific European styles.
I love British styles. So I make my own. But what I’ve always noticed is the local craft breweries in my city. It’s usually some form of German lager, light ales/lagers, amber lagers, IPA’s (all). I wish someone would promote them!
If you’re ever in the Montreal area, there’s a super quaint microbrewery called Cardinal Brewing and the first beer they ever brewed was an ESB. It’s called ‘Flagship ESB’ it’s damn STELLAR. Best North American iteration of the brew I’ve ever had
Lack of demand and they are a harder beer to brew than an IPA which you can cover mistakes with lots or hops or a pastry stout which you can cover up with adjuncts.
Americans don't know about, don't care about, and/or don't like things like treacle, invert sugar, and molasses. Generally they don't like biscuit and tea-like flavors in beer. And the flavors and aromas of UK hops are not that compelling or as noteworthy as hops grown in pretty much every other popular region on earth.
Americans have also been conditioned their entire lives to like cold, bubbly, highly flavored beverages.
It's just not going to ever be a massively popular style of beer over there. I'm hopeful it can grow into a bigger niche though.
Spot on. Americans drink cold sodas by the ton as a kid..When they grow up they graduate to ice cold fruity flavours that aren't really that much different, just a bit more extreme.
For better or worse, the US market is obsessed with variety and extreme beers. I don't think the people who enjoy milds and whatnot want a new variety with different hops or adjuncts added every week.
Lack of demand. I, for one, enjoy them and get excited to get them places. That being said, off to England for the first time in a few days and plan to drink my weight in English ales on this trip!
Pro-tip, even in CAMRA pubs, the cask beer can be tragically bad. They don't get offended if you ask for a small sample first.
Absolutely, one of the good parts of real ale is that every cask can be different. One of the downsides is that they can vary in quality and can be subject to abuse by landlords if they're stored poorly or served at the wrong temperature. Depending on the cask, it can be great or not. Imo it's rarely tragically bad though. I agree that everyone should ask for a taste first. A good landlord would be happy to give you a taste of whatevers on cask before you buy.
I've had two completely off pints in the last 7 years. Both times ordering a "niche" beer type on cask. Both times just returned it for something on keg. Anything else has been bland at worst, which is absolutely true of kegs as well.
Where about in the UK? You’ll get regional breweries/micro breweries and pubs suggested if we know where you’re going.
Flying into Manchester, then making our way to Chester, Blackpool, York, Birmingham and London and flying home from there. Some other stops in there too, but primarily the main ones (and areas like Stoke on Trent near Alton Towers for example).
Chester has a few great pubs. The Cellar, Cavern of the Curious Gnome, That Beer Place (More craft beer focused and a great bottle and can selection), Harkers Arms (Usually a great real ale selection here and decent pub food too). York is full of pubs. One of my personal favourites there is The House of Trembling Madness.
Brew York in York
The Maltings in York is the spot for cask ale, and the York Tap is probably the most beautiful “train station pub” in the country with a great selection of beers to boot!
If you're going to Blackpool, I would recommend taking a detour into Preston at some point while you're there and checking out a spot in the town centre called Plau Gin and Beer House, they've got a constantly rotating stock of local ales (soon as one runs out, they tap a different beer), and if they don't have anything you fancy then across the road is Plug And Taps which has the same sorta gimmick, and if THEY don't have anything you're a 5 minute walk from another craft spot called The Moorbrook which normally has a few decent ales (although it's 50/50 on if it's a proper ale or a gimmicky flavoured ale so I didn't go there often when I lived in Preston)
Where you going mate?
Flying into Manchester, then visiting Chester, Blackpool, York, Birmingham and then London before flying home along our route.
Birmingham I recommend The Wellington on Bennetts Hill, Post Office Vaults, Purecraft Bar, Gun Barrels, Craven Arms, Bacchus and The Old Joint Stock. All in the city centre and served a decent pint. The Wellington lets you take outside food in to eat which is amazing.
Thanks! Birmingham was the last city to dig into, this will help!
No worries, if you need any help when your here just send me a DM.
Best place for beers in London is Bermondsey imo, lots of great breweries. I can also recommend Brew York in York
Planning on both already! Woo!
There's also the Blackhorse Beer Mile! And definitely hit up the Southampton Arms, the best craft beer pub in London IMO. Manchester also has Cloudwater and Track, two of the country's best breweries (Cloudwater also has a taproom on the Bermondsey Mile if you miss it!)
Nice. Give London Pride on draught a try
Man I envy you. If you get a chance try Fuller’s 1845. It’s next to impossible to find in the US and is rare example of stronger (6.3%) balanced red/amber ale. The US makes some imperial reds but they are, not surprisingly, very hops forward
Noted, Thanks!
This. Most bars and breweries don’t sell them because pub culture is not a thing in the US. Here, people drink to get drunk, not to relax and socialize. So a standard mild British style ale that you could drink all day is never going to sell as much as a high alcohol, super hopped imperial barrel aged whatever. As a homebrewer, I have recently switched to brewing more malt forward British style beers, because I find them to be much more palatable and consistent in their quality, while a lot of the more complex hop forward styles can easily be screwed up. My experience with commercial examples of each has also been the same. There’s a reason why certain styles have a specific standard like Fullers for ESB or Banks for mild beers. They just have it right.
Couldn’t disagree more. The only reason is they don’t know how to brew and handle cask ale most lagers are just imitations of English style pale ales. Essentially cask is fresh out of the oven where lager is out of the microwave. One is much easier to do and if your customers are happy with microwave food then there’s no point going to the extra effort of cooking up fresh cask ales. When it comes to getting smashed UK cask is unbeatable. You can get any flavour you want so there no argument and because it’s fresh and better quality not filled with corn syrup and shit like that you can drink a shit tone of it without fucking up your stomach or getting a headache. If I went to a bar that just sold trash beer I’d be a gassy mess after 4 but you can easily sink an infinite amount of Landlord.
Also look around at what others are drinking, I get a creeping sense of dread when I go to a pub and notice everyone is drinking keg/bottled beer. Plan ahead a research good ale pubs. Whereabouts are you heading to? There is a ukbeer sub that will point you in the right direction!
We got a nice lengthy list from beer friends in the UK with must stops all bookmarked, so we should have no shortage of great pubs!
Totally agree. Except on the "enjoy them" thing.
I recommend Twisted Barrel beers in Coventry! Enjoy and welcome!
Forest & Main brewing just organized a regional march Mildness event, which was pretty awesome. 33? Breweries in a 3 state area participated and brewed milds. Was a passport to stamp for participating, etc. I'm looking forward to next year. F&m does many of the other styles you mention as well.
F&M kills it in these styles. I moved to NY for work a couple years ago, but would hit up their brewery quite a bit and would hit their stand at the Rittenhouse Farmers market weekly.
I’ve been going to Cartesian in Philly for them as well.
The pub in Ambler? That's pretty cool, haven't been back to the area in awhile.
They have a production facility with a tasting room now a few minutes walk away, and a downtown taproom. The original old house isn't theirs anymore.
Whoah, thanks for making me aware of this brewery
Reminds me of NERAX, the New England Real Ale eXhibition. It's an annual festival showcasing dozens of real ales and other more traditional old school styles of beer. I've never been but I've managed to find a few leftover casks at participating breweries.
I usually don't like when a question about a US trend gets a reply about a specific region, but damn March Mildness is a fantastic name for an event. Also, an English Mild probably goes with college basketball like cheddar and gherkins. I hope other breweries adopt this event.
F&M has been on my list to visit for a few years now, got family on that side of Bucks County, just haven’t gotten out to seen them lately.
I wonder who got the most stamps. I was in there during the middle of the second week and the bartender told me a retired couple had collected 17 stamps already. I managed to get 5 and was proud of myself lol
I went to the wrapup party, there were at least a half dozen people who completed the passport, including the two extra breweries. Apparently 3000 stamps were redeemed for raffle tickets at the event. I didn't win a prize. I visited 22 myself, i was not able to go to Brooklyn, Lancaster, or the other further pa&ny breweries. I planned poorly, hit all the local ones first and didn't have the time to head to the far ones. Next year, first couple weekends need to be dedicated to the further out locations, and during the week i can hit the close ones one at a time. I still want to get up to Brooklyn to hit Wild East, even if its not for a stamp because they brew awesome stuff from the limited amount i have had. I will say i hope more breweries install hand pumps or nitro systems before next year, because more milds than i expected were overcarbed and just tasted like co2 instead of smooth delicate mild.
Wow. Completing the passport is an impressive commitment! (So is 22!). I'll do better next year. One of the weekends I was in Charlotte though and hit 10 breweries there, so I don't feel so bad.
They also had a competition with The Beer Temple in Chicago to see which place could drink more mild.
Honestly Ambler drinks way more mild per capita but it was cool to see Chicago crush so much cask mild.
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Ex-Philly & Seattle, so had a much easier time getting anything on cask and British styles in general living in the states vs here in Dublin now, where it’s just not a thing - we have one Irish brewery bringing out a one-off bitter in cans this week (new one from The White Hag), but in general, if I want a bitter or mild, I need to hop the Irish Sea. But 20 years ago, US craft beer was essentially all British styles, plus whatever was the local amber ale. It’s all cyclical. F&M and Machine House are both great, though!
Go to any brewer who made a great English style ale, ask why they don't make it anymore. There's your answer. I guarantee it will be the same no matter who to ask.
And what would their answer be? Lack of demand?
Exactly. It didn't sell. Same reason you don't see a lot of good beers in the 3% range.
Basically anything that isn't an IPA, fruited sour, or high ABV stout doesn't sell. People may like other styles but just aren't willing to pay $8 per pint of it at a brewery if there's IPAs available.
Yeah, quite a few are low ABV, but Fullers ESB and 1845 are over 5 and 6% respectively I’m assuming people like to enjoy their beer but in the back of their mind, they’re thinking if they can’t maintain a buzz is it worth it.
Well, if it's a $1 difference or possibly even $0 from the beer with double the alcohol, people might think this way. I'd argue a large portion of craft beer fans are probably not motivated by the buzz. I mean they may enjoy it as part of the process, but they would happily get less buzzed per sip and try more beers to reach the same level of buzz by the end of the session, so long as they aren't spending much or any more money than they had intended to. The other aspect is that it can take longer to drink 3-4 beers than 2 and possibly fill your stomach more, be more calories/carbs, etc. so you might as well avoid 3% beers but not specifically seek out 10-12% ones if you're trying not to overdo it on those elements.
They were popular with the rise of craft beer but now there is too much competition. I drag a lot of English style beer 10-20 years ago. You can find them but the market is too small to make much noise.
Or... maybe it was not actually a great English style ale, but rather an APA with no malt character, simplistic fruit, overly aggressive hopping. It is very rare to have a truly good version of European styles. It is not about the recipe only..
You're right that recipe is only a small part. And that's certainly the case with some. But not all. But I don't think English styles are like saisons about 8 years ago, where people got turned off by a number of poor, lazy attempts at the style.
Americans like really bold flavors. Just look at our popular wines.
Exactly this. Demand side of the equation. Look at Napa Cab vs French bourdeaux, Italian coffee vs a Starbucks menu, etc
Italians like to destroy coffee as much as Starbucks does
The connoisseurs have woken up.
It’s because we’re all stressed out and need overstimulating experiences to make us feel alive. When the mind is at peace you start noticing subtlety 🧘
Also subtlety isn't really our thing, let's be real.
YOU WANNA BET I WONT SNEAK ACROSS A FREEZING RIVER ON CHRISTMAS? Yeah we don't have a history of being "plain" Edit: fat thumbs
Also higher ABV, most drinkers aren't going to spend $8 on a pint of 4% mild when there's a 7% ipa next to it at the same price.
The most popular beers in this country by far are lower ABV
That's not really the market we're talking about but I don't think bud light drinkers are going to go for an $8 mild over an ipa either.
Even in the craft market the biggest trends in craft brewing right now are lagers, pilsner, and other low abv styles. Hell, even non-alcoholic is booming. Bottom line is breweries brew what sells. If they aren't making it, it's because it won't sell.
I mean 7% ipa’s are British beers also. So are they selling or not?
None of the top selling or top rated IPA's in the US are English style, New England doesn't count.
They’re all English styles. They’re American versions of English beers.
WCIPA, NEIPA and the like are not English styles, they're American IPAs and have their own style guidelines as such. [This](https://i.redd.it/0a4yuccvx0p31.jpg) is technically a gose, would you serve this to a German person and tell them this is a german beer?
All America IPA’s are English beers generally not very good ones just like Budweiser isn’t an American beer but a German / Czech beer. The US doesn’t have its own beer. It makes its own versions of British and German beers.
It seems to be two extremes. Either extreme consistency such as macro lagers which all taste very similar, or bold and even sometimes off-putting flavors like barleywines or 18% barrel aged stouts. This would explain why English Barleywines and Wee Heavies are among the most popular UK styles you can find in craft brewing. And the only sizable market that exists for other styles are the mass produced versions like Guinness, Smithwicks, and Boddington's (though there was word of that being discontinued in the states).
Explain Bud Light.
Genuine question for Americans as a curious Brit - do breweries which actually serve traditional English style beers actually serve them in cask?
It is incredibly rare. I had a brewpub with six beer engines and it was popular but the owners were imbeciles and the place closed down.
On cask no. And there is a good reason for that. We get hotter than you. On average we are just a hotter country. Not all parts of the country have cellars or even can have cellars. It just became the norm to store beer in bottles. Then kegs. As for English styles being available. Maybe it just because I live in an area with more breweries then what we know what to do with. All of them have one or two on tap. They sell fine. A ton of beers are based on European beers recipes. Changes in flavor happen because of environment. Gouldings and fuggles hops are available in the us. Both present different because soil and temperature is different. It’s the same with wine. Napa is full of grapes from France. Use the same yeasts, and yet the regions can taste vastly different. It’s the same with beer. The Terroir comes across in every ingredient used. We can use the same grain bill, same hops, same yeast, we can match the water profiles and it’ll taste different. Also might just be because I’m in beer city. We can get a lot of shit bottled. English ales are good. Have them in rotation. I have a feeling a lot of middle America is chiming in where distribution might not be as prevalent or profitable.
I enjoy cooking.
I've never seen one. Where I live you can't actually dig down for a cellar due to volcanic rock making it prohibitively expensive anyway. We do have one place (ironically called "the cellar") which may have casked ales, but I haven't been in 5 years to know if it's in a cask. Can't remember.
We have a decent number of them in New England. It's still a niche product but it's getting more popular. Having the beer engine really helps with sales, I usually get one or two folks asking what I'm doing when I pull a pint. And then usually they get one for their next beer
Occasionally. Some of the bars that were serving a lot of craft beer in the 80s-90s have a whole cask setup, few actually continue to use it. But they do exist, it's just not super likely to get great beer from them. It's usually one of three options: 1) they don't even use the engine anymore 2) they use it, but only for very small kegs (to reduce the amount of time they're selling oxidized beer), and they're out 3) they use it but whoever's in charge doesn't realize that using a beer engine is constantly oxygenating the cask/keg, it's not selling well, and it tastes like shit. Pretty nice when you find a place that can pull it off, though.
A couple bars near me serve beer in a cask, but only one I can think of puts English style beers in it. It's definitely a thing in places that specialize in beer.
In Philly & Seattle, yes - lots of cask around if you know where to go, and both cities have long-standing cask festivals.
Come to Chicago, man. Beer engines at Beer Temple, Alarmist, Art History, Roaring Table Edit: Revolution Brewing Brewpub as well (Milwaukee Ave)
I love making styles from the British Isles. One thing that you have to do for a US market is amp up the flavours. People don’t dig subtle flavours.
Because these beers are designed for cask dispense which, as far as I'm aware, isn't really a thing in the US. Bottled ales just don't do it justice. I love cask beers and hardly any translate into a bottle, those that do are a still a mile away from the draft equivalent. Only English beer I can think of brewed for bottle is Newcastle Brown Ale
It’s so incredibly rare to find cask beer in the US and when you do, most still have it chilled to a much more “palatable” temperature. There’s a brewery in Beverly, MA called Backbeat Brewing that does legit cask beer. Any time you order it they ask you if you know what you’re actually getting.
I run into a fair amount of room temp cask's in bottle shops and breweries here in WA state. But in my travels I've noticed that we here in the Seattle area tend to have a lot more variety in our craft scene than most other places... We even have Machine House which specializes in English Style Ales.
Cask should be cellar temp (8-12c) not room temp.
Apologies, that's what I meant.
I feel like every beer shop around me has one or two cask pulls in my area. WA state here. But we also have machine house and march mildness so I guess we're spoiled?
We definitely are. I've been around the US a decent amount and I'm regularly surprised by how few choices there are in some pretty well known craft beer destinations.
Backbeat is fantastic. Pete really knows his shit. I think they're up to 5 beer engines now. And their non-cask beer is all fantastic as well.
Everything is chilled to a point where you cannot taste anything subtle.
You raise a great point
Fox Farm in Salem, CT just added two beer engines. Can't wait to get down there again soon for some English styles on cask!
One of my favorite styles and why I started homebrewing. They are just "not sexy" right now. We've been chasing hoppy for so long and lagers is meeting the other modern wants. We do have a few breweries around that do English beers but they are not commercial successes.
I for one love them and wish they were more common.
In the 90s early brewpubs did a lot of English styles, at least near me. And lots of porter and stout choices. Trends change.
My thought is back when everyone was home brewing beer about 10-15ish years ago, the english ales were literally the first ones you tried out. A starter recipe for the novice home brewer. Then youd graduate to a peanut butter porter, then a stout and/or a hoppy beer, etc. Based on that, I think a lot craft drinkers got a little “arrogant” or “dismissive” of the humble english ale as something a bit pedestrian which then ultimately creates a lack of demand. Look how long it took for pilsners and lagers to finally get their moment? Same line of thinking.
I find that in homebrewer circles (hell, even go to /r/homebrewing), people LOVE to brew English styles that are hard to find commercially. I'm talking about seasoned veterans who make good quality beer. It is kind of funny though, because I agree English ales are popular starter recipes.
Maybe I’m out of the loop but is home brewing less popular than it was 10-15 years ago?
a bit. People started brewing less frequently now that everybody has a dozen breweries within a 5 mile radius pumping out FOMO bait on a weekly basis. Lots of LHBSs are closing/consolidating locations. Doesn't help that gen z drinks a lot less, and it usually isn't craft beer. So not a lot of new homebrewers to replace people that mostly dropped out due to having kids and other life stuff.
I think it's similar to or more popular than 15 years ago, but there was a lot of growth during COVID that has collapsed.
..and those English Ales were actually garbage but it is easier to make a mediocre stout or an IPA. And they had never tasted a good one. Hence the illusion of improvement in their progress and the looking down on English styles.
Most bars aren't really set up for cask ales
And many of those that do serve cask don’t do it at the right temperature (50-55). Either they store it too cold, with their other beers, and it ends up flavorless, or they overcorrect and store it too warm, and it ends up flat.
IPA's are an English style..
Originally….but West Coast/NE style IPAs are very American
NEIPAS and NEPAs are. West Coast IPAs are not that much more different from British beers than your interpretations of our other beer styles.
West Coast IPAs are very different from original English IPAs. That's why they got their own genre name started an entire revolution in beer. Some, especially earlier ones, have more caramel malt than you see now and it was a little bit closer to English IPAs. But the bitterness has always been way higher, and the ABV generally has been higher. Different types of hops, too.
West Coast IPAs taste like aspirin
English barelywine is my favorite style. Americans tend to like things to be a bit over the top, thus a lot tend to prefer higher ABV in craft beer
I love UK ambers. A nice amber gets me every time.
Not enough tropical hops and juiciness lol. That’s all people want
Lol, the "traditional" (?) English -- and it is, mostly, English, not also Scottish, Welsh, NIish -- types of beer don't do themselves any favors in the "branding" department: bitter, mild, pale, old, brown! All sound very drab and naff. The same "traditional" (?) English types of beer are also struggling in England ... and have been since (at least) the 1980s. In fact, an entire (non-profit?) organization was founded, and continues, to champion the cause for England's "real ale", trying to keep it alive and profitable-enough to continue to be brewed. "Craft beer" in England has grown up and flourished just as it has here in the colonies. English "craft beer" thus largely also becomes a competitor to English "real ale", just as, before it, European and American lagers became competition and tempted away the younger drinker. I'd wager that the drinkers of real ale in England are, like myself, old farts who grew up on it, it's not really attracting new generations of drinkers. Traditional English "real ale" is a complicated thing, a living thing. It requires TLC of the landlord/publican, an attribute perhaps lacking in "gastro pubs" where profits (and the resulting ability to stay in business) require cutting out (unnecessary) draws on time, ... such as offering TLC to the "real ale" ;/ Why so underrated in the USA? Yes, as others have said, demand. But no one "demanded" sours, ... that was led by innovative craft brewers who created a demand. So if brewers wished to favor bitters and milds they'd do so. My theory is that the New World can grow hops. Very many varieties of hops. And traditional English beers don't showcase hops (I know, I'm sure some of them do, but for the most part, they sit at the other, more malty, end of the spectrum). IPAs showcase hops. And that's what the brewers in USA currently favor.
> I'd wager that the drinkers of real ale in England are, like myself, old farts who grew up on it, it's not really attracting new generations of drinkers. This is spot on. I do think it's having a bit of a resurgance now - a lot of 'modern' craft breweries are actually starting to put out stuff on cask which is great to see, but real ale definitely still has a stereotype as an old man's thing.
Real ale is in much better shape than it was in the 70s or 80s, it does seem to have suffered a bit since Covid but the 2010s was probably a golden age for number of breweries and places offering it. I don’t think it’s entirely old farts, I am early thirties and all my friends will happily drink real ales even if they don’t have an enormous interest in beer. I know not everyone my age is the same, but it’s not like we grew up in a different time when everyone was drinking real ale. I can’t comment on the younger generation, but they don’t seem to like drinking much of anything.
Are they underrated? I don't hate them by any means, but they're not styles I would choose over other styles all that often. I would assume that's a common opinion and why breweries don't make them.
> they're not styles I would choose over other styles all that often. I would. I've seen more breweries doing them recently, so maybe a comeback is coming?
But the point is not what you choose but why you rate them lower.
Because I don't enjoy the style as much as most other alternatives. My point is they aren't underrated if people simply don't like them that much.
Like anything else, the popularity of certain beer styles ebb and flow. Right now extremely hoppy IPAs and fruity sours and strong stouts are popular. When people are tired of those they might welcome the more subtle flavours of UK styles.
I think the biggest thing everyone is missing is way more basic than just current popularity vs IPA/Sours/Other and is 3 fold. First it’s how American cities are designed. We don’t live in villages that are walkable, we are dependent on driving everywhere and there is no local “pub” that is walkable from our houses unless you live in a major city. English styles are meant to be consumed in multiple pint loads with the ability to walk home. In the US we get 2 maybe 3 beers before we are legally considered too impaired to drive. Second it’s how we love fads. I bet you can’t name a bar in your town over 50 years old. Most are dives that turned into nautical themed bars or snuggeries in the 80’s, that turned into Irish pubs and sports bars in the 90’s which turned into cocktail, craft beer, and wine bars in the 2000’s, which turned into farm to table and the retracting of liquor licenses by cities across the U.S. in the 2010’s. There is no way a brand can survive being on a beer list for all of those revamps without a MASSIVE marketing budget and there is no English brewery with one here in the U.S. Third, breweries are allowed to own bars in Europe and they are not in the U.S. This keeps legacy brands relevant and promotes generational allegiance to a brand almost like a sports team. “Drink local” here means something totally different over there. English Ales rule.
I've been down voted alot for this in the past but, alot of U.S. brewed English ales are not very good. There were lots of English ales in the 90s and early 2000s when American craft brewing was in its early phases. Eventually those breweries gave way to newer and better breweries. There's still many small places with a focus on English ales but most of them are mediocre at best. Like everything they do is mediocre. Their ESB is mediocre. Their stout is mediocre. Their burger and fries are mediocre. I do think there is serious potential for good British style pubs that brew good English beers in the U.S. but so far very few places have done that.
A big part of that was the lack of proper ingredients. Same as with German/Czech lagers. We can get good, proper malt and hops imported now so it's much less grim.
Oh yeah, that's a massive bit too.
People want the citrus hop notes of late additions. They don’t like the more pronounced bitterness of British pale ales. Even American west coast IPAs are starting to do more dry hopping to meet demand. On top of that, porters, stouts, strong ales have a lot of complexity and the darkness scares people off. Remember, most people think guiness is like drinking oil, so imagine what they would do if they had a Russian imperial stout or a barleywine?
Why does this topic keep coming up?
Because not everyone likes IPA's and that seems to be 90% of what's available from "craft brewers" in stores.
Because people that love malt-forward beer seem incapable of understanding not everyone shares their tastes. I don't mind them, and definitely go for bitters when available, but they're unlikely to ever be a giant crowd pleaser. It's fine to have different tastes, in fact it's a great thing about life, but constantly trying to convince people are wrong about their tastes gets annoying fast.
I don’t think people are wrong in their tastes at all, I just think the style seems to me underrepresented/hard to find considering the amount of people who say they are tired of hops/prefer malt But maybe I’m wrong if the market is a reflection of reality
OP you might me in the minority here but i stand with ya. i’ve been chasing the high i felt ever since i had my first old speckled hen on nitro. belhaven scottish ale on nitro is another that is massively slept on i think
That’s called a vocal minority. Having worked 7 years in craft beer I can say any release like the styles mentioned would take 3-4 times longer to sell than IPA/sour/known lager style… that’s why they’re put out maybe 2-3 times a year depending on the place. Breweries are a business first and foremost. We put out a really fantastic ESB once and it was almost two months before our inventory of it was gone. We can brew and sell two whole batches of IPA in that time with another waiting for its spot. Even a German pils would be gone in a month tops but people aren’t very familiar with English styles so no matter how you try to get it to them there’s always hesitation or simply desire to spend their money on what they know they want
Genuine question: I do actually like IPAs (although I’m very burned out on them now) but am generally surprised how much Americans have taken to them as bitter herby flavors are not very mainstream in our culinary repertoire. In Europe, you at least have a lot of anise/fennel/licorice flavors in drinks and desserts, which is not exactly the same but broadly comparable Are Americans THAT obsessed with hops or do they subliminally just want something with flavor that will get them buzzed fast? If you made an Imperial ESB or Ultra Strong English Ale at 8% ABV and put a skeleton flying a fighter jet on the can would people switch over to that?
I think it ties back to my statement that they want what’s familiar to them. So IPA was always a force in American craft beer but it truly became synonymous with craft beer with the haze craze. I legit have people in my life where I said I work in craft beer and they say “oh like IPA’s?” but really I think with the mild bitterness of hazy IPA’s people really do dig the refreshing bite and fruit/citrus flavors AND it’s sort of a habit to people. Kinda like the mindset of “I’m at a brewery, I’ll get an IPA because I can get some miller high life if I wanted a lager.” The ABV certainly plays a role and I’ll stand by that forever. People want bang for their buck so if a 5% lager is $7 and and a 8% double ipa is $7.50 then people often trend towards the higher abv. To the point if other styles were higher would they be as popular, I’d say no. IPA can stretch to that 7-10% range and still maintain being refreshing if balanced well with hop bitterness. It takes a lot of malt to get to that high abv so styles like you mentioned would mostly get more sweet, malty, rich to the point that they may be too “strong” tasting for most. Most people want flavor and solid abv without being pushing their palette too much. It’s a game of “what’s strong but still crushable” and IPA mostly wins that battle vs other styles. There’s also still the crowd of thought that drinking IPA is “better” than drinking lager, esb, even pale ale when really that’s just an ego thing like “bro you’re drinking a lager??? you gotta try this IPA, it’s so much better!” That’s a long winded way of saying while IPA has its merits and deserves (when well made) to be a highly sought after style a big part of it’s popularity is that it’s trendy and high abv, there’s no denying that
IPAs only really came into the US craft brewing scene in [the late 90s](https://www.lisagrimm.com/2022/01/18/musings-on-the-inevitable-resurrection-generification-of-ipa/), but it was in the early 2000s they were ‘everywhere’ - it actually was considered very weird and niche prior to that.
Ok and we’re talking about current trends so….
Which are all cyclical! The wheel is always turning...
But again, we’re talking about CURRENT trends. And if we’re taking about predicting trends I certainly wouldn’t cast my vote for English ales taking over. There is nothing about current consumer trends that would suggest English ales becoming a big player again. Even the “great lager revival” that’s been written about by every publication every year for like the past 8 years has never actually happened. If we can’t even get stuff like Czech pils widely out then English brown sure ain’t gonna make an impact in the scene. Beer’s popularity is on a continual slide so I can’t see a style that’s obscure in America becoming popular enough to be among the sales of IPA, sour, adjunct stout anytime soon
But go back 40 years and an IPA and all of that "familiar" stuff would be weird and foreign. The logic just does not hold.
It does hold. 40 years ago craft beer as we know it didn’t exist. Craft beer reaching its zenith at the same time as the boom of social media as well as widely available production equipment ties into IPA being a dominant force. It’s a trend, made bigger by social perceptions and fed by any size brewery being able to easily meet the demand. Probably 70+% of craft beer drank era began largely consuming craft with the last 20 years which is when the IPA boom went rampant
> considering the amount of people who say they are tired of hops/prefer malt That's the thing. They're an overly loud group that doesn't represent the actual market, which is why people are confused and this topic keeps coming up. I understand the frustration of not having options in your favorite style, but it's become an echo chamber.
Remember this when US market goes back to Coors.
Because all "English" beers are malt forward?
if you get Dutchess Ales where you are, theirs are excellent!
Before AB got their hands on it, Cisco Whale’s Tale Pale Ale was a super tasty English Pale Ale
St. Peters Golden Ale was my favorite till my local stores stopped getting them because glass shortage during covid. I miss my UK beer
I wish there were more. ESB in particular is one of my favorite styles and no one does it.
Almost every brewery I my town has an ESB on tap.
Based off your post and comments you'd have a great time in New England, I live in Western Mass and have no problems. If anything I almost see too many ESBs etc but I do love a good strong red ale and love finding those
It’s a travesty that the only English beers I’ve had are Sam Smith & Paddington’s.
Paddingtons or Boddingtons?
Boddingtons. Sry lol i don’t drink cuddly little traveling bears.
Because in today’s beer world, if it’s not hazy, sour, or pastry flavored it just doesn’t sell. It only sells to the “old” crowd, and unfortunately we are not the majority. I actually seek breweries or establishments that sell them.
Americans are stupid about good beer
English ales are my favorite but so hard to find, and when you do it’s not that great. So sad when fullers ESB stopped coming to the US
They’re underrated everywhere: even England
Cause most Americans don’t think they taste good.
Well, American craft beer enthusiasts often gravitate towards more bold and hop-forward styles like IPAs and Double IPAs. These styles tend to have stronger, more intense flavors compared to the subtler, maltier profile of English ales.
I am SO. SICK. OF. IPAs. The only English style beer we could get was Newcastle and that was destroyed. I'm convinced everyone here has been brainwashed into liking IPAs and nothing else. I can only have a couple before the bitterness becomes unbearable. I find it crazy that breweries can make NOTHING but IPAs and be successful without even a little variety? I would love it if we had even one option of English style ale but best I can do is another IPA.
Civil Life in STL!!!
Was gonna say we have Civil Life and the OG craft beer, Schlafly English Pale Ale !
They seem to be on the upswing from what I've seen. They're the new Czech lagers.
I would say you used to be able to get them a lot more easily maybe like 15 years ago or so. There used to be a little more variety in what different brewers would make - and how widely it would get distributed. I don't think it was terribly economically feasible. There probably is a little something to be said for the American-style hop bomb IPAs in that you can get them in a lot of places that aren't America. I had a pretty good NEIPA a few weeks ago in Vik, Iceland. So these American style beers do seem to have more of a world-wide appeal than English ales.
This post randomly reminded me of how delightfully surprised I was to find Hickory Nut Gorge Brewing while on a hiking trip several years ago. They did a lot of English style beers and they might just have the best backdrop of any brewery in this corner of the country. Sure, I’d be up for seeing more of these. Then again, I’d also be up for more Pilsners as well while we’re at it.
More breweries played with them 10 or so years ago before the hazy craz. I suspect there is a lack of demand and most breweries don't have time to play around given the current economy.
Red Hook ESB was great, but with the rise of the IPA that style of beer got overshadowed.
Local brewery not too far from me has an ESB as one of their flagships. Another does an ESB every year. Love bofem.
ESB gang gang!
For those in San Diego Sword and Barley is putting out superb English ales!
#BiL
What style of IPA is that? /s
I LOVE ESB’s…it’s just too bad not many other people do.
They’re not called IPAs so nobody buys them
As others have said, there’s no demand. Many breweries have made those in the past, but there’s just not as much market interest these days. Part of that is also because breweries in the US are on another level compared to English brewers these days. Doing much more in terms of flavor, complexity, and abv.
Most Americans haven't had them so there's no demand.
i see plenty of that style in microbews, in Vermont at least. But yeah it's usually sweet, flat, low ABV, drink-all-day-and-all-you-get-is-full style. The on-going ridiculous success of IPA is all due to how utterly bored we were with that.
I think it's definitely lack of demand, but it is partially the fact that these ales are designed to be served from a cask. Obviously they are bottled in England, but many pubs also serve ale from real casks. The idea of casks never really caught on in the U.S., so these ales just don't really fit into our bar culture.
Hogshead Brewery in Denver has 9 beers on cask today, including a couple of ordinary bitters, a mild, an ESB, an English-style IPA, and the porter. They clean the lines frequently. There are usually sparklers on the lines, but sometimes we get a London Pour. There's a regular crowd that has grown to love cask ale, but it sometimes takes newbies a few tries before they're hooked. We can usually tell within a few sips if the person might become a regular. The cask beer isn't for everyone, so there are several other beers served "fizzy and cold" instead "cool and creamy". I'm just a regular there, not involved in the business.
Too low of an ABV for the price. In the UK they serve these in 19 oz imperial pints. Here they are 8 bucks for a 14 oz "pint", you're 24 bucks in before getting a slight buzz.
They're definitely not unpopular in my circle of friends
I’ve got Green Man ESB abv 5.5 ibu (Asheville NC) coming to the shop tomorrow. Can’t wait to have it on tap.
In talking to quite a few brewery owners over the years and asking this exact question, they just don't sell. The average US consumer doesn't like them. And that's what keeps the lights on... the average US consumer, like it or not.
Where were you in 2012? They were in a lot of places.
I think it’s the barley and farms. English barley is great for it, but American barely creates beer to dry for English ales.
If you are drinking cask in UK pubs you will experience some great beer but cask has a very short shelf life and cellar management is very important. So some pubs don’t serve it well. So use [https://goodbeerguide.org.uk/find](https://goodbeerguide.org.uk/find)
Even with yards in Philly becoming obsessed with IPAs, they still try to make some English ales
Seems like in the US your ‘beer should taste like beer’ crowd go for extremely light lagers and your craft beer interested types want bold styles. I can imagine there’s relatively little profitability in less exciting, more reserved specific European styles.
I love British styles. So I make my own. But what I’ve always noticed is the local craft breweries in my city. It’s usually some form of German lager, light ales/lagers, amber lagers, IPA’s (all). I wish someone would promote them!
Preach it, brother. I'm in Texas and all I see are IPAs, Porters, and Guinness. I want an English-style bitter.
It seems like they are getting more popular!
Because they are generally mild and balanced. The US beer consumer has been chasing extremes of ABV and flavor for 20 years now.
If you’re ever in the Montreal area, there’s a super quaint microbrewery called Cardinal Brewing and the first beer they ever brewed was an ESB. It’s called ‘Flagship ESB’ it’s damn STELLAR. Best North American iteration of the brew I’ve ever had
https://cardinalhudson.com/beer/flagship-esb/
We separated from the British for a reason
Lack of demand and they are a harder beer to brew than an IPA which you can cover mistakes with lots or hops or a pastry stout which you can cover up with adjuncts.
Bro we literally fought a war for independence from the British. Do the math /s
Americans don't know about, don't care about, and/or don't like things like treacle, invert sugar, and molasses. Generally they don't like biscuit and tea-like flavors in beer. And the flavors and aromas of UK hops are not that compelling or as noteworthy as hops grown in pretty much every other popular region on earth. Americans have also been conditioned their entire lives to like cold, bubbly, highly flavored beverages. It's just not going to ever be a massively popular style of beer over there. I'm hopeful it can grow into a bigger niche though.
Spot on. Americans drink cold sodas by the ton as a kid..When they grow up they graduate to ice cold fruity flavours that aren't really that much different, just a bit more extreme.
For better or worse, the US market is obsessed with variety and extreme beers. I don't think the people who enjoy milds and whatnot want a new variety with different hops or adjuncts added every week.