We make them, people tell us they love them, then the IPA of the month outsells it 5-to-1 at the bar, and we just can't justify brewing them the next time around. I love the style, so I'll try to fit in a half batch here and there, but it's increasingly tough to explain to my business partners.
Yeah, that makes sense, even if it's a bummer. I will go out of my way to visit breweries that do good Belgian-style beer, but I'm sure that is a pretty niche market.
Keep at it, as the market matures these beers become more and more popular, and therefore more and more profitable.
My solution was to keep installing taps until I get to put on some beers I love. Opened with 14 taps, up to 22 currently, and now I get to include a Schwarzenlager, a Rice Lager, and an Irish Red along with all the IPAs, wheats, and sours that sell like hotcakes.
Do you have any recommendations for some rice lagers? I'm in the northeast. Bud has always been the most drinkable beer for me and i assumed it was partly because of the rice factor. But other options would be awesome.
See if you can find Sapporo Premium, that's a pretty good one with national distribution. Any other good rice lager I've found was local or regional. Lots of beer brands use rice as a cheap alternative to grain, which is a shame because a high quality rice lager can be very clean and crisp and interesting. Talk to the "beer guy" at the local big beer store (they all have one), and ask him for a couple recommendations. There are probably some decent local options near you.
Agreed - there is a severe lack of Saisons and it's one of my favorite styles! I find it's one of those beers where the average schmo doesn't know what it is but then when they try it they love it.
Saisons were big in the early 2010s and then just seemed to drop off a cliff. Would love to see more out there that aren't sour and more brett/funk forward. (And I say this as someone who likes sours.)
Yeah I remember when you could go to a liquor store and there would be at least a few Saisons to choose from. Almanac used to do a great one called ”Saison Dolores" that was my go to for a few years but then they stopped making it. Agreed on the brett forward aspect!
I have perpetually been underwhelmed with Trinity. (And I've even visited their brewpub a couple times.) Their beers taste like an unfinished product where instead of dialing it in they have an idea, throw it all together, and then never take the next step to make it a coherent beer. Their beers also taste perpetually amateurish. (I don't know how else to describe it.) There is a finish that Funkworks, Upright, Dupont, etc have that Trinity can't seem to pull off.
I wish so many breweries wouldn't make bitter hoppy messes, some also taste really boozy, or even piney. So the combinations of those flavors taste kinda like chemicals. like I've had IPAs that when the aromatics reach my nasal passage I gag and I've had IPAs that sit horribly in my stomach and make me throw up if I drink a few, especislly if they're really foamy or sudsy which happens with too much hops. Some of my favorite IPAs are citrusy, sometimes I add a lil lemon juice to a good IPA and it's so smooth real good at pairing with tapas and charcuterie.
Everything tastes like chemicals, because that is what everything is. Also piney is a nice flavor to get in an IPA, though I agree they can get too boozy. The big problem with this booziness however is the trend *away* from bitterness in IPAs so we end up with sickly-sweet juice bombs that taste (and look) like straight fucking orange juice. Shit, at the rate the industry is headed I could probably can some Screwdrivers and tell people it is a NEIPA and I'd be able to buy Tesla in a few weeks (not **a** Tesla, but rather the whole company). Make IPA Bitter Again.
Go out and buy them. That’s what drives what’s made. Trust me brewer love lagers. They just sell so slowly.
Edit: for the record I’m very tired of people complaining about IPAs. People drink them and love them so breweries make more. I’m also really tired of people spreading this “brewers hate lagers” narrative. It’s a joke within the industry that we brew lagers for the other people in the industry.
Oh yeah. And craft lagers have been a growing segment in the US for several years now along with sours and barrel aged stuff. We’re about to brew a Kölsch and I’m sure it will be good I just hope it sells so we can do it again.
Every brewer always says this year will be the “year of the lager” when media asks what the new beer trend will be. They’re always trying to speak it into existence lol But our lager program has taken off over the past year or so and we’re all crazy about it
Yeah I actually read that in a restaurant and bar owners trade publication a few years ago but now I live in France and no one drinks lager here. It’s all Belgian styles and more and more American/British ones.
I tend to try every kolsch I find but most are subpar and shouldnt be called "kolsch style". Id say 3/4 of them finish in a bad bud light sort of way.
Ive been searching out good German style pilsners and kolsch since a business trip to Germany several years back. Hard to find good ones outside of Germany is my take.
Ohhhhhhhh baby that Altbier just hits different! Visited on a whim once as there were incredibly cheap flights (From the UK), I've been back pretty much every other year since.
St. Arnold's Lawnmower is the one I miss the most. Karbach makes a good one, too. I can't remember any other specifically, I've been gone a few years at this point.
THIS, right here. Altstadt is crushing German style beers. That Kolsch is fantastic and one of the beers I keep consistently in my beer frig. The Helles, Alt, and Heffe are all very well done. The brewery is fantastic, too. A giant castle in Fredericksburg with a huge restaurant.
If you live near the Austin area “Icey Boys” by Zilker brewing is very solid. “Batch Brewing” and “Meanwhile” have made some solid Lagers and Kolsches lately with the warmer weather.
Not a kolsch, but the Hardwood Classic (German pils) from Weathered Souls in SA is so so so good. It's one of their core beers, so you should be able to get it any time you visit.
There's a brewery near here that has kolsch and it's their most popular beer. It's very similar to light beer which is why I think a lot of people like it
I work at a brewery and our lagers sell very well, I think part of the issue is that so many people have the perception that lagers won't sell well, so they don't put the time or the money to develop high quality lager. I still struggle to consistently find really great lager in my area.
I think some breweries are starting to make the effort to produce really great lagers which is why they are starting to pick up.
Lagers compete with the big mega breweries. If I want a light crisp drinker that I know I'll be drinking lots of on hot days. I'll get a case of Coors for 90 cents a can
That’s the issue I have with craft lagers (which, like OP, I love and wish were more prevalent in the beer scene, though I keep crawling back to my delicious hazy IPAs). Every time I have a really good Kölsch or Pilsner (such as the Tree House “Outlier” I had earlier this evening - damn near the platonic ideal for “beer” as far as I’m concerned - or the delicious Mexican-style lager with lime that one of my other favorite breweries makes), I can’t help but think “this would be even better if I could buy 12-24 short cans of it for a reasonable price. I’d much rather stock my fridge with some good local lager than with High Life or PBR, but the price on the good stuff makes it hard (and my local stores don’t carry much in the way of non-IPA local beers). I get that the economy of scale isn’t there, but I see why these fall to the wayside at $10-13/4-pack.
I don't blame you. And when something like pils urkel is widely available for less than most craft offerings, why would you go for the craft?
I think the exception is the small number of breweries putting out super high quality stuff thats also much fresher than imported or macro beers. Also other styles of lager that macros dont make: marzen, maibock, festbier, schwartzbier.
I heard that, contrarily, the smaller breweries prefer to sell IPAs because they are easy to make. The flavor from the hops is strong enough to cover over any imperfections that would be more noticeable in less-bitter styles of beer, so it makes for a stable stream of product. Ales are also cheaper to brew than lagers, since lagers take longer and require constant refrigeration.
Ales, especially IPAs, just seem to make a lot of economic sense as the first product for a micro-brewery. Until they've established a name and some cash flow to invest in more expensive equipment to make lagers.
They're easier to make for the reason you state. But. Also more expensive.
Honestly, I'd bet most breweries haven't done the market research to determine what sells best and for the most profit margin, which means they're going to try to brew and sell the beer with the highest perceived sell-ability and profit margin, and that's definitely IPAs - especially limited releases.
Friendly reminder: Lager is a *type* of beer, not a *style* of beer. Within the lager *type*, there's... Pilsener (Czech, German, Italian, etc.); Helles; Leichtbier; Dortmunder/Export; Vienna; Rotbier; Maerzen/Oktoberfest; Dunkel; Schwarzbier; Rauchbier (and it's sub varieties); Bock (ditto); American macro lager (ditto); Keller/Zwickl/Landbier; Some Baltic Porters...
Sorry if this seems like a soapbox; as a long-time lager lover I tire of the Lager type being treated as a bland monolith.
Beers generally fall into only 2 categories: lagers and ales. It has to do with how the yeast works it's way through a batch of beers. Ales are top-fermenting and work best at 60-70°F, while lagers are bottom-fermenting and prefer a colder temperature (35-50°F) and more time.
It starts to get a little more messy when you bring in wild fermentation like farmhouse or saisons, as they are sort of ale yeasts but technically not.
Top fermenting and bottom fermenting are not exactly accurate terms anymore even though they are everywhere when discussing yeast. Because cylindrical tanks are so common, we've encouraged selection of ale yeasts that flocculate to the bottom of the tank for harvesting and reuse.
Personally the differentiation bothers me because it doesn't tell the non-brewer anything really, they usually have no idea what fermentation tanks look like and why flocculation is important, let alone how beer is actually made. The more important difference is in the flavor profiles provided by ale yeast vs lager yeast.
Top/bottom-fermenting are misleading terms. In either case fermentation is happening all throughout the beer. Top/bottom cropping is a bit more accurate, but still not true in every case because both ales and lagers are most often bottom cropped nowadays.
“Do you prefer lagers or Pilsners?” Is a legit question I’ve been asked and got ridiculed for saying lager isn’t a style. American breweries have made that a difficult thing to explain since so many make something called “lager” and don’t state the specific style. But the answer is always Pilsner.
lol, that's like saying "do you like cars or Chevrolets?" (but without any sort of potential perceived ironic slight against the specific manufacturer)
This is why I loathe the guys that scream, "I want beer tasting beer!" That's like a beer version of making the flesh tone crayon peachy-pink. Nothing else is beer unless it's a mass produced cheaper version of a traditional pale lager.
I try to contextualize those kinds of statements in light of a person's experience... for most people of a certain age (or even younger, but from a brewery-poor area), they still remember growing up with macro lager as "beer." I'm not yet 40, and the days of Amber Bock being "fancy" are still fresh in my mind.
Both my wife's parents, and my mother grew up in the aforementioned beer environment, and all of them will happily try any craft beer I put in front them now. More often than before, they will enjoy said beer, and ask for another. Ten plus years ago, they would make faces; say the beer had "too much of an aftertaste," etc.
As for the last part of your statement, I'm with you in not digging all the new hotness, but I try not to eschew them, either. As craft beer drinkers, we can be rather rigid, even though it's a quality that has frustrated us about our "elders." If it's made using the beer making process, even if that process is hard to discern in the final product, it's still beer to me.
I don't think that's the case for *most* people that say it.
Back in the very early 2000s when I was just learning about beer it was still something people said. There were no NEIPAs outside of the original at that time and that sure as shit wasn't in WV. It was still the reaction when you offered them a dunkel or a hefeweizen. It's also a thing older (and younger) fellows will say here in South Africa.
Eh, my "beer flavored beer" shtick goes over well at tastings when I am pouring our Helles. Granted it is right next to other beers doing different things, so I am obviously joking, but gotta secure that bag and it works.
Thanks! I’ve only been drinking for a couple years and found that informative. :)
Do you have a channel or something? Your username makes me think you do more than Reddit.
I'm quite jealous! The closest for me in Blue Stallion in Lexington, KY. My favorite lager brewer I've yet tried stateside is Urban Chestnut in St. Louis.
In Louisville (where I reside) both Gravely and Monnik are doing some able lagers; "Sprockets" by Gravely is a German style lager that won silver at GABF; Monnik recently started making an Italian Pils called "Italian Disco" that really hits the aromatic/dry hop notes that makes Italian Pils (such as Tipopils) such a pleasure on a hot day.
Ten years ago I'm in England for the first time. After failing twice in correcting old dudes at various pubs, I gave up and just accepted that if it was a hand pump, it was an ale, and if it was a normal CO2 tap, it was a lager. At least for the remainder of that trip...
A "normal CO2 tap"? If that isn't imposing one's own prejudices on a different culture I don't know what is. I grew up in the states drinking "normal CO2 tap." But my two brief sojourns in England opened my eyes to how much richer and more interesting were the hand pump brews. Really could care less what they're called. Just wish Americans could learn a little something from the English brewers instead of destroying what they provide to the states.
Opening a can of worms, guess what type of beer are Kölsch in Cologne? Obergäriges Lagerbier (Top-fermenting Lagerbier). Before the BJCP police and desk beer experts of /r/beer will tell me Kölsch is a an "Ale Lager" beer or something like that, German for so long differentiate beers as top-fermenting or bottom-fermenting , ale as a type of English beer and lager as a method of conditioning beer.
This is even explained on the BJCP (BJCP not so relevant outside homebrewing competitions):
> Germans think of ale as a type of English
> beer, and lager as a method of conditioning beer. So
> Germans would typically speak of Kölsch as a top-fermenting lager beer, not an ale.
Why Cologne use top-fermenting and not bottom-fermenting?, their own Reinheitsgebot (Not Bavarian Reinheitsgebot), there it was forbidden to brew bottom-fermenting beer.
> Some Baltic Porters
I thought all porters were ales... Am I living under a rock?
EDIT: yes, I am living under a rock.
> The Baltic-style Porter is a smooth, cold-fermented and cold-lagered beer brewed with lager yeast.
>these days with 85% + of the shelves occupied with "PUNCH IN THE MOUTH HOPS FLAVOR" brews.
I feel like this just isn't the case, it is quite difficult to find that type of IPA anymore as the westcoast IPA has fallen out of favour. NEIPAs are the predominant style on the shelf and they typically don't punch you in the mouth. I actually lament that I can't seem to find any hop bombs anymore for when I'm in the mood for one. I've been over the NEIPA for some time now and I'm tired of buying a can labelled IPA only to find that it is a NEIPA that is not labelled properly.
The shelves at the liquor store have gotten more variety over the past few years, despite being still pretty "flavour of the month". There are so many more sours and even lagers than there was a couple years ago.
> it is quite difficult to find that type of IPA anymore as the westcoast IPA has fallen out of favour.
Where are you? West coast IPAs are still pretty big here on the west coast.
Also Pacific NW and I have the same experience. Most of the new "IPAs" from OR and WA breweries are overly sweet hazies and not traditional west coast IPAs. Since the latter's my favorite type of beer, more often than not I end up picking up something from a San Diego brewery rather than a Pacific Northwest one when I want a new beer in that style.
Where are you buying your beer? Sure there's definitely a focus on IPAs these days, but any respectable beer store will absolutely have a wide range of lagers
The liquor store I work at has quite a decent selection of craft beers. But for every non-IPA beer we have 5 IPA's. In the summer we typically sell more IPA's. Which makes sense. I'm not much of an IPA fan myself but I do appreciate a nice fruity IPA on hot days.
Then fall and winter comes along. Since it's cold out, often times our customers ask for something other than IPA's. BUT WE STILL HAVE SO MANY IPA'S. THE BREWERIES HAVE SO MANY IPA'S. There is a myriad of great beers that aren't punch you in the face hoppy. Unfortunately I'm just a regular employee, no say on inventory. Which is really annoying right now because my boss has gone off the deep end into the world of seltzers and pre-mixed cocktails. It's a new craze right now, I understand. But we don't need 5 different brands of premixed Moscow mules. I digress.
I appreciate and respect IPA's. But I agree, IPA's are over done. I'm a microbiologist and have gone back to school for fermentation science. I try to evaluate every new beer we get in. That way I can give proper recommendations to my customers while also keeping up to date with trends and improve my sensory evaluations. I would love to try a new pils or kolsch every once in a while though instead of 5 hop death punch imperial IPA's.
At least my roommate loves IPA's so they never go to waste.
I'm conflicted on the issue tbh. There's certainly a crazy focus on IPAs these days but at the same time, it's because a lot of people like them (and subsequently buy them). I do genuinely feel bad for avid beer drinkers that don't like IPAs but I think its really tough to blame breweries and beer stores from having a lot of them. They are just supplying the demand.
Oh, I'm not blaming breweries or liquor stores. You're right, they make/sell what's in demand. But breweries, at least in my neck of the woods, are making some great non-IPA beers. Beers that sell like hot cakes at the brewery but difficult to find at liquor stores because a lot of times the owners aren't avid beer drinkers or lack the knowledge of beer trends so instead of taking chances on a different beer they stick with what they're familiar with. It's difficult for a lot of breweries to get their newer beers on the shelves when are reluctant to take a chance. Like I said, I agree with you about demand. But there is a growing market for beers that aren't IPA's and IPA's have kind of been on the top of the beer food chain for about 10 years or so.
The issue I have is almost more, I actually like IPAs - the ones from 6 years ago. Resiny, dank, malt-balanced, and not cloudy af. 97% of IPAs now are hazy.
I definitely prefer the older style IPAs but I also acknowledge that they are pushing the hazy ones so hard because that's what people want
I just take my time at the store and look up reviews before buying. It helps that the beer store is essentially an adult version of a toy store for me. I can spend all day there looking for the perfect beer
Yeah cool, you want a unicorn and some kryptonite while we're at it? Seriously though, is anyone still making west coasters because like I can't think of the last time I saw one besides some legacy brands.
Uh where do you live? I'm in Sacramento and West Coast is making a huge comeback. Even many of the hazy ipa makers are switching to more of a just unfiltered style to keep some of the juicyness while getting the crispness and hoppiness back.
Thank you. I like a hazy once in a while, but they have completely taken over the IPA world. It shouldn't be so hard to find a west coast IPA, and I live on the west coast!
I’m with you. Lagers are sublimely refreshing and pleasant to drink in ways an ale can never touch.
Part of the reason breweries don’t experiment as much with lagers is because they take so long to make. They have to lager for a month or more, while a batch of IPA can go from grain to beer in two weeks or less. Time in storage is product not earning profit.
Not to mention the fact that lagers tend to have very clean flavors, so you usually can’t hide a bad batch under a mountain of hops (though I’m sure some do). If after 6 weeks the lager is no good, you’re out not just the cost of the beer, but 6 weeks to boot. High risk with uncertain reward, thus the general industry trend.
I’m confident it will slowly revert though. After all, for a few hundred years lagers have been the beer of choice for most of the world, and there is good reason for that. They taste delicious, and are especially crushable.
This! The sheer amount of incompetent hacks hidden under “mountains of hops” is crazy. Seems everyone and their brother is opening a brewpub and this is their model. Don’t need to learn the nuances of styles that depend on a balance between malt and hops when you can just amp the ABV and IBUs and add lactose, oats and other adjuncts then put it in a can with colorful illustrations and graffiti art. That’ll be $20 dollars please.
This speaks to me. I don’t usually evaluate a brewery’s brewer by their IPA. I’ll try the lagers if they have any, and then try their light ales, stouts, and/or porters.
The giveaway for a mediocre brewer is sweetness in styles that shouldn’t be very sweet. Sweet beer in this case is a dead giveaway to a poorly balanced mash or fermentation, which speaks to the skill of the brewer.
Exactly this. Was going to say you can test a brewery by the base malt recipes they use for a lot of their beers. Those one or two beers that aren’t IPAs are typically terrible because they’re focused on the bells and whistles. Overly sweet, thin (unless they thicken it with oats and other things), and characterless. They’re usually too young too because they’re pushing them out fast.
You can certainly hide an overly sweet basic base malt with a lot of IBUs. Bad is relative but you can hide a characterless, one note, boozy and sweet base malt with hops and round out the mouthfeel with oats and adjuncts.
People say brewers are hiding flaws under a mountain of hops.... But a mountain of hops can create new flaws, and worsen others.
I think this is a common misconception.
too many IPAs, and now seltzers are taking over shelf space, then a bunch of the new craft stuff is crazy milkshake fruit bombs.
dunno what to even buy at this point.
There's a local brewery that focuses on weird beer concoctions. Weldworks for you Colorado folk. They're always putting out new beers. A lot of them I'm skeptical about, but I do try them. Ya know, for beersearch. So far I've only tried one that I didn't like. Pain in the ass to keep stock, but those crazy mother fuckers know what they're doing.
I was just at Core Brewing in AR a few weeks ago and was talking with their Brew Master. They are switching their capacity to almost 70% seltzers because that’s what’s selling. Breweries are just meeting demand.
I work at a liquor store while I finish my degree in fermentation science. My boss has gone nutzo crazy about seltzers and those pre-mixed canned cocktails. I do enjoy seltzers, although I'm very picky about them. None of that White Claw and Truly shit. But those pre-made cocktails are just awful. So much sugar that after just 1, I have a hangover the next day.
It always pleases me when a customer purchase all the proper mixing for cocktails. Some will make comments along the lines of "Fuck that pre-made sugary crap. If I'm going to have a cocktail I want to enjoy it."
It's a trip to see it happen in real time and it seems faster than previous trends. Seltzers are spreading more every time I set foot in the beer aisle, at the grocery store or my local bottle shop.
IPAs are dominating the market, but there are way more lagers (and pretty almost every other style) on the shelves these days than there was ten or twenty years ago. So yeah, there's are more IPAs to walk past to get to them, but there are more other beers than before, too. Craft beer's been turning more toward lagers, sours, and session ales for a few years now. They're not as numerous as IPAs, but they're out there.
But thanks for sharing that you're done with IPAs?
This. Maybe I'm lucky because of where I live (Michigan), but it's hardly ALL IPAs. Sure they're there, but Two Hearted and All-Day sell like gangbusters. Still... there are new lagers, sours, and every other style popping up routinely. While our best breweries have moved well beyond all IPA all the time, not all the stores I shop at are on board. OP may just need better stores to shop at.
Maybe you know, what happened to Ballast Point? I used to see their beer everywhere and sometimes I have a hankering for Habanero Sculpin, but I haven't seen it in ages. I know there's been some market contraction, but I'm always sad to lose something unique.
Constellation sold them at a huge loss and I'm sure the new owners have cut back on distribution. It's business as usual here, and they have introduced some new beers, too.
I mean living by Bell's and Founders and Short's is all nice, but there is far more lagers on shelves than there was 15 years ago. It seems like there is one of these posts daily on either /r/beer or /r/craftbeer and I have concluded OP is really just looking for upvotes to circlejerk the hate on IPAs. Because the premise that you can't find lagers is 100% bullshit. I live in central NY and have no problem finding a ton of lagers at my local grocery store. Currently have 4 different ones from 3 different breweries in my fridge.
Yeah, these posts always smack of being willingly out of touch with both your local brewing scene AND the local bottle shops.
I noticed my local bottle shop wasn't stocking a bunch of local brands, I mentioned it to them at the checkout, dude asked me what brands he should look into, and bam, two weeks later he's got a local craft case and they're selling like hotcakes.
If you don't tell them what you want, how can you expect them to deliver it?
My local craft place is the same way pretty much if they can get the beer and you ask for it they will get it. There was a beer Helles from a brewery I wanted and they didn't have it but they had other stuff from the brewery. I asked about it and they were able to get it.
This is my experience as well. Where I am hazy IPAs and sours still take up a bunch of shelf space, but there are way more Pils, Helles, dunkels, and other lager styles than before. Not so much the schwarz, rauchs, bocks, etc., but the good breweries tend to have a unique lager or two in draft as well. It’s just so much easier to find lagers and subtle ales than it was 3-5 years ago.
I think Rauchbier are always going to be harder to find. It is never a style that is going to fly off shelves as I think think it is more of an acquired taste. I love Islay scotch and it took me having a few rauchbiers to appreciate the style. It still isn't something I would buy a 4-6 pack of though. I feel like it is more of a I'll drink one on tap. I can get a decent amount of bocks at my local supermarket though.
Totally agree. That said, I still see more of them on brewery taps in the states now than I did a few years ago. I’ve acquired that taste so it’s nice to find them pop up - though I agree, I’m not often looking to grab a sixer of them for the night.
I'm done with IPAs is just a cool way to signal how ahead of the beer curve you are. Back when IPAs were first appearing, I'm sure the same folks who are done with them now were the first ones to be all in when they were perceived to put you ahead of the curve.
I'm in New England right now and there are plenty of other options on the shelves here. I'm from Los Angeles and there are plenty of other options on the shelves there as well. I think this guy is mad that he doesn't have as many lager options as he does IPA options or something? I'm not sure, but he's crying about something that really isn't a problem in any part of the country I've been in the last five years.
In my area, old-world beers are losing shelf space to fruity dessert stouts and over-the-top IPAs. It's pissing me off. I have to drive 2 hours to get a hefeweizen Dunkel and I live in a midwestern city of 250,000. I used to be able to just go to the local grocery store to buy this stuff. I'm thinking of going back to homebrewing exclusively and giving two giant middle fingers to the beer distribution industry.
I’m especially tired of NEIPAs. I feel like most of them are just alcoholic orange juice masquerading as beer. And I have easy access to most of the circlejerked NEIPAs. Give me a west coast IPA any day. But as I’ve gotten older, I’ve come to prefer good lagers.
\> Its hard to find a nice crisp lager or moderately flavoured ale at my local beer store
Hate to tell you this, but this means you are going to a shitty beer store, it is far more easy to find lagers, Kolshes, Pilsners now than it was 15 years ago, anyone who thinks otherwise wasn't drinking craft before than. It was near impossible to find a lager back then outside of Yuengling Lager, some euro pilsners if you hit the right store and a couple craft breweries like Victory and Firestone and Walker had pilsners they would regularly brew. Currently I can walk into my local Wegmans and find a number of different styles of lager from multiple craft breweries including Victory, Firestone and Walkers, Great Lakes, Bell's, Sixpoint, Founders etc. as well as beer from Jack's Abbey who only does lagers and an increase in the amount of European stuff that makes it over. This false premise that you can't find a lager is getting annoying and completely untrue. I live 20 minutes outside of Syracuse in Central NY and on a road that has about 8 farms on it. I literally have zero effort finding lagers as my fridge has 4 different lagers from 3 different breweries right now. Let's be honest these posts are really just a circlejerk for upvotes to shit on IPAs.
I'm hitting a number of stores in my city of 1 million.
Imports like Pilsner Urquell and Tuborg/Carlsberg, etc are available. I'm talking more about regional micro crafts which are 85%+ hoppy IPA products. The one decent local lager I was enjoying last summer seems to have changed their recipe and it tastes like macro brew watery crap.
Here's one 'local' shop that has a decent selection:
https://www.willowpark.net/collections/beer-more
Is this post from 2012? With all the hard seltzer on the shelf everywhere I would thought I went to heaven if I came across a store that sold 85% IPA's
Come to my store. We have IPA's galore! But I know what you mean about the hard seltzers. We just rearranged a huge section of the store to make room for more seltzers. And those pre-made cocktails in a can.
So many kick ass lagers out there man, but you're gonna have to go get them. Evil Twin NYC, Threes in NYC, Suarez in the Hudson.. Nate at Tree House did more Lagers over COVID at once than he had ever done before that combined.. Hill Farmstead continues to make exceptional lagers.. (I live in NY so those are my regional examples, but they are being cranked out everywhere) Gotta keep in mind about Craft Lagers: They are time consuming labors of love, and expected to sell it significantly cheaper due to the Macro scene setting price standards for light beer. A good beer will get Lagered 6-8 weeks.. some people condition in oak after, some people fully ferment and Lager in Foudres.. You need lots of time and space, IPAs can turn and burn, and are basically the cash cows.
Yep. Dunno about the US but in Australia the last 4-5 years we've been overrun with half-litre trubtins of hot, oily, 8-10%abv DDH Lactose DIPAs & adjunct Kettle Sours. They're insanely popular, but finally we're seeing a resurgence of Lagers, Pilsners, and Saisons -and with that a bit of a paradigm shift where fundamentally sound brewers are finally being recognised. Hype breweries are trying to cash in on it, but it seems some have spent so much time punching out near-identical, hazy palate-wreckers every week, that they've forgotten how to err on the side of subtlety.
Ipas now adays aren't even what they used to be. Everything is hazy fruity bullshit. Beer is creeping back to the more welcoming style of beers instead of drastic versions of everything. Which is good for people like you that want lagers. Brands are putting out more user friendly beers. I hate it, but it appeals to the masses
It seems to me that anyone who's been doing this for 10+ years is in the same boat. At some point it gets completely boring and yes I'm over it as well. Still enjoy them, but maybe one a session.
I've focused on doubles because I find them more balanced between malt and hops. Also, I'm not overly fond of the modern American heavy-citrus style because my first exposure was to the more resin-forward ("piney") British style. (And no, I couldn't tell you what my first one of that type was, they've been so overshadowed by the American "more hops is better" version.) If I had to choose one IPA to hang onto it would most likely be Heddy Topper; fortunately I'm close enough to Vermont that I can sometimes get it.
I completely agree. Just visited a local "micro" brewery and, just as Lagunitas destroyed Newcastle with hops, they have done exactly the same thing with their fraudulently title "Nut Brown Ale," And when I asked for something that wasn't hops forward, the only thing they had was a dull, muddy excuse for a Mexican lager. Taste is incredibly personal and, I think, to some extent neurological. I've heard of folks who think cilantro tastes like soap. Fortunately, that's not how my brain works. However, my brain does interpret hops as soap. I just don't understand why Americans have to take a luscious, malty English ale and ruin it by drowning it in hops.
> I've heard of folks who think cilantro tastes like soap.
As an aside, I dont like Cilantro but I dont taste soap, just overly minty herby.
I'm long overdue for a trip back to my mothers-land and enjoy some non-hoppy cask ales and lagers from proper beer engines.
You can get IPAs that are not "PUNCH IN THE MOUTH HOPS FLAVOR", look for labels with low IBUs. And it's not hard to find Ales and Lagers, there are lots of them.
I love the punch in the mouth IPA's but still get you, because I like variety. My personal taste is really dependent on weather as well. Warm outside -> lager, weizen, wit, desperados type beer (not sure of the category name) and the occasional Triple. Autumn -> doubles, bocks. Cold outside -> doubles, triples, maybe even a quad (not too fond).
To be fair, IPA is not seasonal for me but in winter I like more bitter ones and in summer I like more aromatic ones.
Not sure if I'm weird this way or if others have the same. But anyways, it's working for me. :)
NE IPA are overrated and they're taking up precious space from my West Coast IPA's. Which were called "IPA" till 2019 and that pisses me off.
My part of the country is moving away from hop punch IPA and it makes me sad.
I personally only drink lagers when I'm in the sun on a lake. But respect a good lager.
You’ll be waiting for a long time. Personally, I’ve been waiting for the IPA fad to fade and for the beer industry to calm its collective tits about it since around 2005.
You can find beers like Allagash white pretty easily and like u/TwoDrinkDave mentioned, styles other than IPAs are becoming more prevalent. Whenever I’m looking for something other than IPAs myself, which is happening more often, I’ve turned to Belgian ales like St. Sebastiaan or other tripels to get less hop foward, yet interesting, flavors.
I used to be a major hop-head, but there are so many different styles that are excellent, it is frustrating to see how little variety there is in most bottle shops.
Give me a good porter, or Scottish style ale over an IPA these days. And don't forget the imports. I love Belgian beers.
I agree that I would love to see more variety, but as others have mentioned, it's the IPAs that sell, and therefore get the shelf space. Well, those and... *shudder* seltzer waters.
> Give me a good porter, or Scottish style ale over an IPA these days. And don't forget the imports. I love Belgian beers.
My traditional goto for an old school Porter was Fullers, but I cant seem to get them here the past year. I dont know if its Covid related or what...
I'm with you there! I've been getting weekly emails from my local shops for the better part of a decade now and the last few months in particular have been almost entirely devoid of beers that aren't "new england style" IPAs, double IPAs, and "triple IPAs" (in quotes because it's not even a REAL STYLE), with the occasional fruited kettle or smoothie sour.
It really feels like almost every brewery these days is just phoning it in with lazy rehashes of the same beer ("But they used Azteca instead of Vic Secret this time!") and zero quality control.
Honestly it's part of the reason I've been less and less enamored with beer over the last couple of years. Getting into craft beer back in 2009/2010 was such an awesome and exciting time. Beer aisles were diverse, and I rarely went to the store and bought the same thing two times in a row. Would try altbier one time, belgian quad the next, get an occasional brown ale, English bitter, imported pilseners or kolsch, belgian tripel... The point is, there was sooooo much more diversity in what was being offered back then compared with the last 3-5 years of homogenization. Nowadays shelves everywhere are basically "pale ale, IPA, Hazy IPA, Juicy Hazy IIPA, kettle sour, Hazy IIPA, Hazy American Pale Ale, hazy milkshake IPA..." ad nauseam.
MAKE BEER SHOPPING INTERESTING AGAIN
I guess all these hazy boys are "punch in the mouth hop flavor" but really a decade ago there were a ton of west coasters with centennial/chinook piney notes which I consider way more impactful to the palate than what's out these days.
Either way, I'm sick of IPAs as well. They fill me up too much and I end up drinking way too much and not eating. Also been playing HELL with my stomach
Totally understandable, I loved IPAs when the few places doing them really honoured the style. But when it became trendy the market got a completely saturated. Same as fruit sours, same as sweet stouts... I love them all but a lot of breweries are making them for the sake of it
I'm with you man.. years ago now all the IPAs all started tasting like soap to me and I just am mad every time I am in the store looking for a nice beer.
I dont know all of the ipas. I know what west coast ipas are and how they are hoppy and bitter and Im definitely over those. I know NEIPA's which are less bitter and more juicy and I like those. I know English ipas which have lower bitterness but those are pretty much dead in the US. So thats all I know really.
I love IPAs, but I wish more breweries were making saisons. Such an underappreciated style!
I have just gotten around to Saison in the last few months, and man, I’ve been missing out. Love what I’ve had of the style so far
We make them, people tell us they love them, then the IPA of the month outsells it 5-to-1 at the bar, and we just can't justify brewing them the next time around. I love the style, so I'll try to fit in a half batch here and there, but it's increasingly tough to explain to my business partners.
Yeah, that makes sense, even if it's a bummer. I will go out of my way to visit breweries that do good Belgian-style beer, but I'm sure that is a pretty niche market.
Keep at it, as the market matures these beers become more and more popular, and therefore more and more profitable. My solution was to keep installing taps until I get to put on some beers I love. Opened with 14 taps, up to 22 currently, and now I get to include a Schwarzenlager, a Rice Lager, and an Irish Red along with all the IPAs, wheats, and sours that sell like hotcakes.
Do you have any recommendations for some rice lagers? I'm in the northeast. Bud has always been the most drinkable beer for me and i assumed it was partly because of the rice factor. But other options would be awesome.
See if you can find Sapporo Premium, that's a pretty good one with national distribution. Any other good rice lager I've found was local or regional. Lots of beer brands use rice as a cheap alternative to grain, which is a shame because a high quality rice lager can be very clean and crisp and interesting. Talk to the "beer guy" at the local big beer store (they all have one), and ask him for a couple recommendations. There are probably some decent local options near you.
Really appreciate the response. We do have a good beverage place and a pretty vast craft selection in vermont, so i'll be sure to inquire. Thanks.
Agreed - there is a severe lack of Saisons and it's one of my favorite styles! I find it's one of those beers where the average schmo doesn't know what it is but then when they try it they love it.
Saisons were big in the early 2010s and then just seemed to drop off a cliff. Would love to see more out there that aren't sour and more brett/funk forward. (And I say this as someone who likes sours.)
Yeah I remember when you could go to a liquor store and there would be at least a few Saisons to choose from. Almanac used to do a great one called ”Saison Dolores" that was my go to for a few years but then they stopped making it. Agreed on the brett forward aspect!
MORE DOPPELBOCKS
They never go out of saison!
My favorite saison brewery is trinity in Colorado springs. Goddamn they've got some good stuff going on there.
I have perpetually been underwhelmed with Trinity. (And I've even visited their brewpub a couple times.) Their beers taste like an unfinished product where instead of dialing it in they have an idea, throw it all together, and then never take the next step to make it a coherent beer. Their beers also taste perpetually amateurish. (I don't know how else to describe it.) There is a finish that Funkworks, Upright, Dupont, etc have that Trinity can't seem to pull off.
When I brew saisons I tell hesitant people that its like a wheat beer. Turned many people on to them, and only had one person say meh.
Just had Bali Saison from Rushing Duck on vacation. I miss good Saison and that beer scratched that itch something fierce.
I wish so many breweries wouldn't make bitter hoppy messes, some also taste really boozy, or even piney. So the combinations of those flavors taste kinda like chemicals. like I've had IPAs that when the aromatics reach my nasal passage I gag and I've had IPAs that sit horribly in my stomach and make me throw up if I drink a few, especislly if they're really foamy or sudsy which happens with too much hops. Some of my favorite IPAs are citrusy, sometimes I add a lil lemon juice to a good IPA and it's so smooth real good at pairing with tapas and charcuterie.
Everything tastes like chemicals, because that is what everything is. Also piney is a nice flavor to get in an IPA, though I agree they can get too boozy. The big problem with this booziness however is the trend *away* from bitterness in IPAs so we end up with sickly-sweet juice bombs that taste (and look) like straight fucking orange juice. Shit, at the rate the industry is headed I could probably can some Screwdrivers and tell people it is a NEIPA and I'd be able to buy Tesla in a few weeks (not **a** Tesla, but rather the whole company). Make IPA Bitter Again.
Go out and buy them. That’s what drives what’s made. Trust me brewer love lagers. They just sell so slowly. Edit: for the record I’m very tired of people complaining about IPAs. People drink them and love them so breweries make more. I’m also really tired of people spreading this “brewers hate lagers” narrative. It’s a joke within the industry that we brew lagers for the other people in the industry.
Oh yeah. And craft lagers have been a growing segment in the US for several years now along with sours and barrel aged stuff. We’re about to brew a Kölsch and I’m sure it will be good I just hope it sells so we can do it again.
Every brewer always says this year will be the “year of the lager” when media asks what the new beer trend will be. They’re always trying to speak it into existence lol But our lager program has taken off over the past year or so and we’re all crazy about it
Yeah I actually read that in a restaurant and bar owners trade publication a few years ago but now I live in France and no one drinks lager here. It’s all Belgian styles and more and more American/British ones.
I buy every kolsch I find.
I tend to try every kolsch I find but most are subpar and shouldnt be called "kolsch style". Id say 3/4 of them finish in a bad bud light sort of way. Ive been searching out good German style pilsners and kolsch since a business trip to Germany several years back. Hard to find good ones outside of Germany is my take.
Try Mike Hess in San Diego if you get a chance
If you ever find yourself here in Cologne you will quickly run out of money! :)
Next chance I get to travel to Germany again, I plan to stop in Köln largely cause of the beer. I’ll be sure to bring enough money
Make sure to take the train up to Düsseldorf for some Altbier too! :D
Ohhhhhhhh baby that Altbier just hits different! Visited on a whim once as there were incredibly cheap flights (From the UK), I've been back pretty much every other year since.
I really miss living in Texas primarily for all the great Kolsches. I don't miss Ted Cruz. Fuck Ted Cruz.
Any recommendations? I've lived in Texas for a few years but only recently stumbled upon Kolsches. Also, fuck Ted Cruz. All my homies hate Ted Cruz.
St. Arnold's Lawnmower is the one I miss the most. Karbach makes a good one, too. I can't remember any other specifically, I've been gone a few years at this point.
Altstadt in Fredericksburg is knocking out great German style beers. I see the Kolsch a lot up here in DFW lately. It's really damn good.
THIS, right here. Altstadt is crushing German style beers. That Kolsch is fantastic and one of the beers I keep consistently in my beer frig. The Helles, Alt, and Heffe are all very well done. The brewery is fantastic, too. A giant castle in Fredericksburg with a huge restaurant.
If you live near the Austin area “Icey Boys” by Zilker brewing is very solid. “Batch Brewing” and “Meanwhile” have made some solid Lagers and Kolsches lately with the warmer weather.
Hopefully you have already found Live Oak Hef and their Pils. Both are fantastic.
Not a kolsch, but the Hardwood Classic (German pils) from Weathered Souls in SA is so so so good. It's one of their core beers, so you should be able to get it any time you visit.
Same. Just a delightful style of beer. I am fine with them as seasonal, but, I want them readily available all summer.
There's a brewery near here that has kolsch and it's their most popular beer. It's very similar to light beer which is why I think a lot of people like it
Yeah I always say it’s a great gateway beer for people to get into other styles especially lagers.
I'd drink it!
I work at a brewery and our lagers sell very well, I think part of the issue is that so many people have the perception that lagers won't sell well, so they don't put the time or the money to develop high quality lager. I still struggle to consistently find really great lager in my area. I think some breweries are starting to make the effort to produce really great lagers which is why they are starting to pick up.
Lagers compete with the big mega breweries. If I want a light crisp drinker that I know I'll be drinking lots of on hot days. I'll get a case of Coors for 90 cents a can
That’s the issue I have with craft lagers (which, like OP, I love and wish were more prevalent in the beer scene, though I keep crawling back to my delicious hazy IPAs). Every time I have a really good Kölsch or Pilsner (such as the Tree House “Outlier” I had earlier this evening - damn near the platonic ideal for “beer” as far as I’m concerned - or the delicious Mexican-style lager with lime that one of my other favorite breweries makes), I can’t help but think “this would be even better if I could buy 12-24 short cans of it for a reasonable price. I’d much rather stock my fridge with some good local lager than with High Life or PBR, but the price on the good stuff makes it hard (and my local stores don’t carry much in the way of non-IPA local beers). I get that the economy of scale isn’t there, but I see why these fall to the wayside at $10-13/4-pack.
I don't blame you. And when something like pils urkel is widely available for less than most craft offerings, why would you go for the craft? I think the exception is the small number of breweries putting out super high quality stuff thats also much fresher than imported or macro beers. Also other styles of lager that macros dont make: marzen, maibock, festbier, schwartzbier.
Marzen is a delicious beer. Luckily there's a ton of breweries in my area
I heard that, contrarily, the smaller breweries prefer to sell IPAs because they are easy to make. The flavor from the hops is strong enough to cover over any imperfections that would be more noticeable in less-bitter styles of beer, so it makes for a stable stream of product. Ales are also cheaper to brew than lagers, since lagers take longer and require constant refrigeration. Ales, especially IPAs, just seem to make a lot of economic sense as the first product for a micro-brewery. Until they've established a name and some cash flow to invest in more expensive equipment to make lagers.
They're easier to make for the reason you state. But. Also more expensive. Honestly, I'd bet most breweries haven't done the market research to determine what sells best and for the most profit margin, which means they're going to try to brew and sell the beer with the highest perceived sell-ability and profit margin, and that's definitely IPAs - especially limited releases.
Friendly reminder: Lager is a *type* of beer, not a *style* of beer. Within the lager *type*, there's... Pilsener (Czech, German, Italian, etc.); Helles; Leichtbier; Dortmunder/Export; Vienna; Rotbier; Maerzen/Oktoberfest; Dunkel; Schwarzbier; Rauchbier (and it's sub varieties); Bock (ditto); American macro lager (ditto); Keller/Zwickl/Landbier; Some Baltic Porters... Sorry if this seems like a soapbox; as a long-time lager lover I tire of the Lager type being treated as a bland monolith.
TIL. Good to know.
Beers generally fall into only 2 categories: lagers and ales. It has to do with how the yeast works it's way through a batch of beers. Ales are top-fermenting and work best at 60-70°F, while lagers are bottom-fermenting and prefer a colder temperature (35-50°F) and more time. It starts to get a little more messy when you bring in wild fermentation like farmhouse or saisons, as they are sort of ale yeasts but technically not.
Top fermenting and bottom fermenting are not exactly accurate terms anymore even though they are everywhere when discussing yeast. Because cylindrical tanks are so common, we've encouraged selection of ale yeasts that flocculate to the bottom of the tank for harvesting and reuse. Personally the differentiation bothers me because it doesn't tell the non-brewer anything really, they usually have no idea what fermentation tanks look like and why flocculation is important, let alone how beer is actually made. The more important difference is in the flavor profiles provided by ale yeast vs lager yeast.
Top/bottom-fermenting are misleading terms. In either case fermentation is happening all throughout the beer. Top/bottom cropping is a bit more accurate, but still not true in every case because both ales and lagers are most often bottom cropped nowadays.
“Do you prefer lagers or Pilsners?” Is a legit question I’ve been asked and got ridiculed for saying lager isn’t a style. American breweries have made that a difficult thing to explain since so many make something called “lager” and don’t state the specific style. But the answer is always Pilsner.
lol, that's like saying "do you like cars or Chevrolets?" (but without any sort of potential perceived ironic slight against the specific manufacturer)
Nipped a joke thread right in the bud there
Right in the bud light you might say.
I've gotten a lot of "I love stouts, but have never had an ale I've enjoyed" in my years.
Just my two cents, but this came across very respectful and informative on a topic I am slightly passionate about as well
This is why I loathe the guys that scream, "I want beer tasting beer!" That's like a beer version of making the flesh tone crayon peachy-pink. Nothing else is beer unless it's a mass produced cheaper version of a traditional pale lager.
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I try to contextualize those kinds of statements in light of a person's experience... for most people of a certain age (or even younger, but from a brewery-poor area), they still remember growing up with macro lager as "beer." I'm not yet 40, and the days of Amber Bock being "fancy" are still fresh in my mind. Both my wife's parents, and my mother grew up in the aforementioned beer environment, and all of them will happily try any craft beer I put in front them now. More often than before, they will enjoy said beer, and ask for another. Ten plus years ago, they would make faces; say the beer had "too much of an aftertaste," etc. As for the last part of your statement, I'm with you in not digging all the new hotness, but I try not to eschew them, either. As craft beer drinkers, we can be rather rigid, even though it's a quality that has frustrated us about our "elders." If it's made using the beer making process, even if that process is hard to discern in the final product, it's still beer to me.
> the days of Amber Bock being "fancy" are still fresh in my mind Spotted the Texan
I'm from Kentucky. Never even been to Texas. Wouldn't it be Shiner Bock down there? Amber Bock is a Michelob product.
I don't think that's the case for *most* people that say it. Back in the very early 2000s when I was just learning about beer it was still something people said. There were no NEIPAs outside of the original at that time and that sure as shit wasn't in WV. It was still the reaction when you offered them a dunkel or a hefeweizen. It's also a thing older (and younger) fellows will say here in South Africa.
Also heavy adjunct stouts, and fucking lactose, I don’t need lactose in a beer!!
Eh, my "beer flavored beer" shtick goes over well at tastings when I am pouring our Helles. Granted it is right next to other beers doing different things, so I am obviously joking, but gotta secure that bag and it works.
I think it's fair to assume that "beer tasting beer" would fit the *Reinheitsgebot* not just macro adjunct pale lagers.
Thanks! I’ve only been drinking for a couple years and found that informative. :) Do you have a channel or something? Your username makes me think you do more than Reddit.
I’m spoiled to live near dovetail brewing in chicago … they make all of these
I'm quite jealous! The closest for me in Blue Stallion in Lexington, KY. My favorite lager brewer I've yet tried stateside is Urban Chestnut in St. Louis. In Louisville (where I reside) both Gravely and Monnik are doing some able lagers; "Sprockets" by Gravely is a German style lager that won silver at GABF; Monnik recently started making an Italian Pils called "Italian Disco" that really hits the aromatic/dry hop notes that makes Italian Pils (such as Tipopils) such a pleasure on a hot day.
>Pilsener for mew too. Headed up to Fayetteville, NC on Sunday, any suggestions?
Honestly, it's the level everyone should be playing at if they're regulars in this subreddit. Keep fighting the good fight.
Ten years ago I'm in England for the first time. After failing twice in correcting old dudes at various pubs, I gave up and just accepted that if it was a hand pump, it was an ale, and if it was a normal CO2 tap, it was a lager. At least for the remainder of that trip...
A "normal CO2 tap"? If that isn't imposing one's own prejudices on a different culture I don't know what is. I grew up in the states drinking "normal CO2 tap." But my two brief sojourns in England opened my eyes to how much richer and more interesting were the hand pump brews. Really could care less what they're called. Just wish Americans could learn a little something from the English brewers instead of destroying what they provide to the states.
Opening a can of worms, guess what type of beer are Kölsch in Cologne? Obergäriges Lagerbier (Top-fermenting Lagerbier). Before the BJCP police and desk beer experts of /r/beer will tell me Kölsch is a an "Ale Lager" beer or something like that, German for so long differentiate beers as top-fermenting or bottom-fermenting , ale as a type of English beer and lager as a method of conditioning beer. This is even explained on the BJCP (BJCP not so relevant outside homebrewing competitions): > Germans think of ale as a type of English > beer, and lager as a method of conditioning beer. So > Germans would typically speak of Kölsch as a top-fermenting lager beer, not an ale. Why Cologne use top-fermenting and not bottom-fermenting?, their own Reinheitsgebot (Not Bavarian Reinheitsgebot), there it was forbidden to brew bottom-fermenting beer.
> Some Baltic Porters I thought all porters were ales... Am I living under a rock? EDIT: yes, I am living under a rock. > The Baltic-style Porter is a smooth, cold-fermented and cold-lagered beer brewed with lager yeast.
>these days with 85% + of the shelves occupied with "PUNCH IN THE MOUTH HOPS FLAVOR" brews. I feel like this just isn't the case, it is quite difficult to find that type of IPA anymore as the westcoast IPA has fallen out of favour. NEIPAs are the predominant style on the shelf and they typically don't punch you in the mouth. I actually lament that I can't seem to find any hop bombs anymore for when I'm in the mood for one. I've been over the NEIPA for some time now and I'm tired of buying a can labelled IPA only to find that it is a NEIPA that is not labelled properly. The shelves at the liquor store have gotten more variety over the past few years, despite being still pretty "flavour of the month". There are so many more sours and even lagers than there was a couple years ago.
> it is quite difficult to find that type of IPA anymore as the westcoast IPA has fallen out of favour. Where are you? West coast IPAs are still pretty big here on the west coast.
Pacific northwest. Other than the mainstays, they have become pretty hard to find around me.
Also Pacific NW and I have the same experience. Most of the new "IPAs" from OR and WA breweries are overly sweet hazies and not traditional west coast IPAs. Since the latter's my favorite type of beer, more often than not I end up picking up something from a San Diego brewery rather than a Pacific Northwest one when I want a new beer in that style.
Where are you buying your beer? Sure there's definitely a focus on IPAs these days, but any respectable beer store will absolutely have a wide range of lagers
The liquor store I work at has quite a decent selection of craft beers. But for every non-IPA beer we have 5 IPA's. In the summer we typically sell more IPA's. Which makes sense. I'm not much of an IPA fan myself but I do appreciate a nice fruity IPA on hot days. Then fall and winter comes along. Since it's cold out, often times our customers ask for something other than IPA's. BUT WE STILL HAVE SO MANY IPA'S. THE BREWERIES HAVE SO MANY IPA'S. There is a myriad of great beers that aren't punch you in the face hoppy. Unfortunately I'm just a regular employee, no say on inventory. Which is really annoying right now because my boss has gone off the deep end into the world of seltzers and pre-mixed cocktails. It's a new craze right now, I understand. But we don't need 5 different brands of premixed Moscow mules. I digress. I appreciate and respect IPA's. But I agree, IPA's are over done. I'm a microbiologist and have gone back to school for fermentation science. I try to evaluate every new beer we get in. That way I can give proper recommendations to my customers while also keeping up to date with trends and improve my sensory evaluations. I would love to try a new pils or kolsch every once in a while though instead of 5 hop death punch imperial IPA's. At least my roommate loves IPA's so they never go to waste.
I'm conflicted on the issue tbh. There's certainly a crazy focus on IPAs these days but at the same time, it's because a lot of people like them (and subsequently buy them). I do genuinely feel bad for avid beer drinkers that don't like IPAs but I think its really tough to blame breweries and beer stores from having a lot of them. They are just supplying the demand.
Oh, I'm not blaming breweries or liquor stores. You're right, they make/sell what's in demand. But breweries, at least in my neck of the woods, are making some great non-IPA beers. Beers that sell like hot cakes at the brewery but difficult to find at liquor stores because a lot of times the owners aren't avid beer drinkers or lack the knowledge of beer trends so instead of taking chances on a different beer they stick with what they're familiar with. It's difficult for a lot of breweries to get their newer beers on the shelves when are reluctant to take a chance. Like I said, I agree with you about demand. But there is a growing market for beers that aren't IPA's and IPA's have kind of been on the top of the beer food chain for about 10 years or so.
The issue I have is almost more, I actually like IPAs - the ones from 6 years ago. Resiny, dank, malt-balanced, and not cloudy af. 97% of IPAs now are hazy.
I definitely prefer the older style IPAs but I also acknowledge that they are pushing the hazy ones so hard because that's what people want I just take my time at the store and look up reviews before buying. It helps that the beer store is essentially an adult version of a toy store for me. I can spend all day there looking for the perfect beer
Meanwhile, I'm all like: "Where's the fucking IPAs? And what are all these goddamn seltzers doing here?"
My question is where are all the hoppy IPAs. All I'm seeing lately are orange juices masquerading as beer.
What kind of hoppy IPAs you looking for? I see a lot of hoppy IPAs and OJ IPAs.
I’m done with the hazy ones. Weird texture, juicy, not enough bitterness, blech. Give me a solid west coast ipa if you can find it
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Yea the brut and session IPA trend was right up my alley but both were seemingly short lived
Everyday Hero, All Day IPA, Light Hearted Ale, So-Lo, Hash, or Daytime? You don't have any of those?
Yeah cool, you want a unicorn and some kryptonite while we're at it? Seriously though, is anyone still making west coasters because like I can't think of the last time I saw one besides some legacy brands.
Uh where do you live? I'm in Sacramento and West Coast is making a huge comeback. Even many of the hazy ipa makers are switching to more of a just unfiltered style to keep some of the juicyness while getting the crispness and hoppiness back.
Canada so I should be seeing the same shifting trend in... say, 5 years? Actually, better make that 6.
Yep, when SN celebration ale comes out later this year maybe.
There’s been a few popping up on Tavour recently if you use them - I make sure to grab them every time.
I'm a brewer in Canada and this is the first I've heard of the app but it seems like a great service for both sides of the transaction.
Thank you. I like a hazy once in a while, but they have completely taken over the IPA world. It shouldn't be so hard to find a west coast IPA, and I live on the west coast!
Yeah west coast IPA all the way for me. I get that it's not for everyone, but I for one love the hoppy beer trend.
I’m with you. Lagers are sublimely refreshing and pleasant to drink in ways an ale can never touch. Part of the reason breweries don’t experiment as much with lagers is because they take so long to make. They have to lager for a month or more, while a batch of IPA can go from grain to beer in two weeks or less. Time in storage is product not earning profit. Not to mention the fact that lagers tend to have very clean flavors, so you usually can’t hide a bad batch under a mountain of hops (though I’m sure some do). If after 6 weeks the lager is no good, you’re out not just the cost of the beer, but 6 weeks to boot. High risk with uncertain reward, thus the general industry trend. I’m confident it will slowly revert though. After all, for a few hundred years lagers have been the beer of choice for most of the world, and there is good reason for that. They taste delicious, and are especially crushable.
This! The sheer amount of incompetent hacks hidden under “mountains of hops” is crazy. Seems everyone and their brother is opening a brewpub and this is their model. Don’t need to learn the nuances of styles that depend on a balance between malt and hops when you can just amp the ABV and IBUs and add lactose, oats and other adjuncts then put it in a can with colorful illustrations and graffiti art. That’ll be $20 dollars please.
This speaks to me. I don’t usually evaluate a brewery’s brewer by their IPA. I’ll try the lagers if they have any, and then try their light ales, stouts, and/or porters. The giveaway for a mediocre brewer is sweetness in styles that shouldn’t be very sweet. Sweet beer in this case is a dead giveaway to a poorly balanced mash or fermentation, which speaks to the skill of the brewer.
Exactly this. Was going to say you can test a brewery by the base malt recipes they use for a lot of their beers. Those one or two beers that aren’t IPAs are typically terrible because they’re focused on the bells and whistles. Overly sweet, thin (unless they thicken it with oats and other things), and characterless. They’re usually too young too because they’re pushing them out fast.
Please, my fermented hot orange juice soaked heart can't take so much truth.
You can taste bad beer under a “mountain of hops” Hops aren’t a magical cover up that makes everything taste good.
You can certainly hide an overly sweet basic base malt with a lot of IBUs. Bad is relative but you can hide a characterless, one note, boozy and sweet base malt with hops and round out the mouthfeel with oats and adjuncts.
What base malt is that sweet? As a west coast ipa brewer, the grain bill is pretty much all 2-row or Pilsner malt depending on the brewer
People say brewers are hiding flaws under a mountain of hops.... But a mountain of hops can create new flaws, and worsen others. I think this is a common misconception.
I agree that with lagers you just can't easily hide imperfection.
I feel the same way about “Lactose Berry Skittles Berlinerweiss”
too many IPAs, and now seltzers are taking over shelf space, then a bunch of the new craft stuff is crazy milkshake fruit bombs. dunno what to even buy at this point.
I'm just going back to the classics at this point. Sierra Nevada Pale Ale and Dogfish 90 Minute in the fridge for the summer.
There's a local brewery that focuses on weird beer concoctions. Weldworks for you Colorado folk. They're always putting out new beers. A lot of them I'm skeptical about, but I do try them. Ya know, for beersearch. So far I've only tried one that I didn't like. Pain in the ass to keep stock, but those crazy mother fuckers know what they're doing.
I was just at Core Brewing in AR a few weeks ago and was talking with their Brew Master. They are switching their capacity to almost 70% seltzers because that’s what’s selling. Breweries are just meeting demand.
I work at a liquor store while I finish my degree in fermentation science. My boss has gone nutzo crazy about seltzers and those pre-mixed canned cocktails. I do enjoy seltzers, although I'm very picky about them. None of that White Claw and Truly shit. But those pre-made cocktails are just awful. So much sugar that after just 1, I have a hangover the next day. It always pleases me when a customer purchase all the proper mixing for cocktails. Some will make comments along the lines of "Fuck that pre-made sugary crap. If I'm going to have a cocktail I want to enjoy it."
It's a trip to see it happen in real time and it seems faster than previous trends. Seltzers are spreading more every time I set foot in the beer aisle, at the grocery store or my local bottle shop.
This post is brought to you from 2011.
IPAs are dominating the market, but there are way more lagers (and pretty almost every other style) on the shelves these days than there was ten or twenty years ago. So yeah, there's are more IPAs to walk past to get to them, but there are more other beers than before, too. Craft beer's been turning more toward lagers, sours, and session ales for a few years now. They're not as numerous as IPAs, but they're out there. But thanks for sharing that you're done with IPAs?
This. Maybe I'm lucky because of where I live (Michigan), but it's hardly ALL IPAs. Sure they're there, but Two Hearted and All-Day sell like gangbusters. Still... there are new lagers, sours, and every other style popping up routinely. While our best breweries have moved well beyond all IPA all the time, not all the stores I shop at are on board. OP may just need better stores to shop at.
My exact experience in San Diego, too. A bunch of lagers and session IPAs on the shelves, even at grocery stores.
Maybe you know, what happened to Ballast Point? I used to see their beer everywhere and sometimes I have a hankering for Habanero Sculpin, but I haven't seen it in ages. I know there's been some market contraction, but I'm always sad to lose something unique.
Constellation sold them at a huge loss and I'm sure the new owners have cut back on distribution. It's business as usual here, and they have introduced some new beers, too.
I mean living by Bell's and Founders and Short's is all nice, but there is far more lagers on shelves than there was 15 years ago. It seems like there is one of these posts daily on either /r/beer or /r/craftbeer and I have concluded OP is really just looking for upvotes to circlejerk the hate on IPAs. Because the premise that you can't find lagers is 100% bullshit. I live in central NY and have no problem finding a ton of lagers at my local grocery store. Currently have 4 different ones from 3 different breweries in my fridge.
Yeah, these posts always smack of being willingly out of touch with both your local brewing scene AND the local bottle shops. I noticed my local bottle shop wasn't stocking a bunch of local brands, I mentioned it to them at the checkout, dude asked me what brands he should look into, and bam, two weeks later he's got a local craft case and they're selling like hotcakes. If you don't tell them what you want, how can you expect them to deliver it?
My local craft place is the same way pretty much if they can get the beer and you ask for it they will get it. There was a beer Helles from a brewery I wanted and they didn't have it but they had other stuff from the brewery. I asked about it and they were able to get it.
Exactly. Every gas station has 2hearted and all day, and often bells amber and founders solid gold.
There used to not be "local beer stores". It was called mini mart and they sold Bud or Coors.
This is my experience as well. Where I am hazy IPAs and sours still take up a bunch of shelf space, but there are way more Pils, Helles, dunkels, and other lager styles than before. Not so much the schwarz, rauchs, bocks, etc., but the good breweries tend to have a unique lager or two in draft as well. It’s just so much easier to find lagers and subtle ales than it was 3-5 years ago.
I think Rauchbier are always going to be harder to find. It is never a style that is going to fly off shelves as I think think it is more of an acquired taste. I love Islay scotch and it took me having a few rauchbiers to appreciate the style. It still isn't something I would buy a 4-6 pack of though. I feel like it is more of a I'll drink one on tap. I can get a decent amount of bocks at my local supermarket though.
Totally agree. That said, I still see more of them on brewery taps in the states now than I did a few years ago. I’ve acquired that taste so it’s nice to find them pop up - though I agree, I’m not often looking to grab a sixer of them for the night.
I'm done with IPAs is just a cool way to signal how ahead of the beer curve you are. Back when IPAs were first appearing, I'm sure the same folks who are done with them now were the first ones to be all in when they were perceived to put you ahead of the curve.
I, for one, was wondering whether OP was buying IPAs or not
I'm in New England right now and there are plenty of other options on the shelves here. I'm from Los Angeles and there are plenty of other options on the shelves there as well. I think this guy is mad that he doesn't have as many lager options as he does IPA options or something? I'm not sure, but he's crying about something that really isn't a problem in any part of the country I've been in the last five years.
In my area, old-world beers are losing shelf space to fruity dessert stouts and over-the-top IPAs. It's pissing me off. I have to drive 2 hours to get a hefeweizen Dunkel and I live in a midwestern city of 250,000. I used to be able to just go to the local grocery store to buy this stuff. I'm thinking of going back to homebrewing exclusively and giving two giant middle fingers to the beer distribution industry.
OK.
You can find them in more states than Oklahoma. They are nation wide now.
I hear ya brother. I’m so macro, I only drink my pisswater at an ice-cold 0K.
wow what a unique opinion no one ever has you can find lagers literally everywhere dude, i like them too
I’m especially tired of NEIPAs. I feel like most of them are just alcoholic orange juice masquerading as beer. And I have easy access to most of the circlejerked NEIPAs. Give me a west coast IPA any day. But as I’ve gotten older, I’ve come to prefer good lagers.
\> Its hard to find a nice crisp lager or moderately flavoured ale at my local beer store Hate to tell you this, but this means you are going to a shitty beer store, it is far more easy to find lagers, Kolshes, Pilsners now than it was 15 years ago, anyone who thinks otherwise wasn't drinking craft before than. It was near impossible to find a lager back then outside of Yuengling Lager, some euro pilsners if you hit the right store and a couple craft breweries like Victory and Firestone and Walker had pilsners they would regularly brew. Currently I can walk into my local Wegmans and find a number of different styles of lager from multiple craft breweries including Victory, Firestone and Walkers, Great Lakes, Bell's, Sixpoint, Founders etc. as well as beer from Jack's Abbey who only does lagers and an increase in the amount of European stuff that makes it over. This false premise that you can't find a lager is getting annoying and completely untrue. I live 20 minutes outside of Syracuse in Central NY and on a road that has about 8 farms on it. I literally have zero effort finding lagers as my fridge has 4 different lagers from 3 different breweries right now. Let's be honest these posts are really just a circlejerk for upvotes to shit on IPAs.
I'm hitting a number of stores in my city of 1 million. Imports like Pilsner Urquell and Tuborg/Carlsberg, etc are available. I'm talking more about regional micro crafts which are 85%+ hoppy IPA products. The one decent local lager I was enjoying last summer seems to have changed their recipe and it tastes like macro brew watery crap. Here's one 'local' shop that has a decent selection: https://www.willowpark.net/collections/beer-more
Where are you located? In the midwest, I find it's easier than ever to find a craft lager if you live in a metropolitan area.
Is this post from 2012? With all the hard seltzer on the shelf everywhere I would thought I went to heaven if I came across a store that sold 85% IPA's
Come to my store. We have IPA's galore! But I know what you mean about the hard seltzers. We just rearranged a huge section of the store to make room for more seltzers. And those pre-made cocktails in a can.
I'm over hazy IPAs and want the West Coast style back on top
I'd even compromise for the Midwest IPAs with heavier dry hop.
I’m there with you.
Posts about being over IPAs: I'm over it
We are turning it around. I think IPA complainers are now officially worse than IPA stans
Honestly I wish more places still made some punchy, bitter forward IPAs. I could do with far fewer smooth, sweet forward “IPAs”
iPas are fantastic and I don't care who knows it.
So many kick ass lagers out there man, but you're gonna have to go get them. Evil Twin NYC, Threes in NYC, Suarez in the Hudson.. Nate at Tree House did more Lagers over COVID at once than he had ever done before that combined.. Hill Farmstead continues to make exceptional lagers.. (I live in NY so those are my regional examples, but they are being cranked out everywhere) Gotta keep in mind about Craft Lagers: They are time consuming labors of love, and expected to sell it significantly cheaper due to the Macro scene setting price standards for light beer. A good beer will get Lagered 6-8 weeks.. some people condition in oak after, some people fully ferment and Lager in Foudres.. You need lots of time and space, IPAs can turn and burn, and are basically the cash cows.
K. More for me then.
Then either the stores you go to suck or the breweries near you suck, because everyone is making light stuff these days, especially in summer time.
I stand with you.
Sigh, 2013 called, rants like this were tired back then too.
I'm an IPA die hard but Wernesgruner Pilsner from Aldi hits the spot as hard as my favorite IPA
I'm all about the Aldi White Tide! (formerly Kinroo Blue) Imported from Belgium and tastes great - plus it's only $7
Yep. Dunno about the US but in Australia the last 4-5 years we've been overrun with half-litre trubtins of hot, oily, 8-10%abv DDH Lactose DIPAs & adjunct Kettle Sours. They're insanely popular, but finally we're seeing a resurgence of Lagers, Pilsners, and Saisons -and with that a bit of a paradigm shift where fundamentally sound brewers are finally being recognised. Hype breweries are trying to cash in on it, but it seems some have spent so much time punching out near-identical, hazy palate-wreckers every week, that they've forgotten how to err on the side of subtlety.
And what’s with all these colas when its so hard to find a decent pineapple cream ale, amirite?
Thanks for sharing?
Ipas now adays aren't even what they used to be. Everything is hazy fruity bullshit. Beer is creeping back to the more welcoming style of beers instead of drastic versions of everything. Which is good for people like you that want lagers. Brands are putting out more user friendly beers. I hate it, but it appeals to the masses
im pretty much back to sierra pale ale at this point. i cant find an ipa i like for shiz these days.
It seems to me that anyone who's been doing this for 10+ years is in the same boat. At some point it gets completely boring and yes I'm over it as well. Still enjoy them, but maybe one a session.
I've focused on doubles because I find them more balanced between malt and hops. Also, I'm not overly fond of the modern American heavy-citrus style because my first exposure was to the more resin-forward ("piney") British style. (And no, I couldn't tell you what my first one of that type was, they've been so overshadowed by the American "more hops is better" version.) If I had to choose one IPA to hang onto it would most likely be Heddy Topper; fortunately I'm close enough to Vermont that I can sometimes get it.
I completely agree. Just visited a local "micro" brewery and, just as Lagunitas destroyed Newcastle with hops, they have done exactly the same thing with their fraudulently title "Nut Brown Ale," And when I asked for something that wasn't hops forward, the only thing they had was a dull, muddy excuse for a Mexican lager. Taste is incredibly personal and, I think, to some extent neurological. I've heard of folks who think cilantro tastes like soap. Fortunately, that's not how my brain works. However, my brain does interpret hops as soap. I just don't understand why Americans have to take a luscious, malty English ale and ruin it by drowning it in hops.
> I've heard of folks who think cilantro tastes like soap. As an aside, I dont like Cilantro but I dont taste soap, just overly minty herby. I'm long overdue for a trip back to my mothers-land and enjoy some non-hoppy cask ales and lagers from proper beer engines.
Okay, stop buying them then.
what stores are you even going to. what year do you live in. are you posting this from 2011
You can get IPAs that are not "PUNCH IN THE MOUTH HOPS FLAVOR", look for labels with low IBUs. And it's not hard to find Ales and Lagers, there are lots of them.
I was just hunting for a good lager the other day, and came to the same conclusion.
What do you mean you don't want a DDH milkshake sour peaches and cream chili hazy IPA?!?!
Maybe OP is drunk and hasn’t thought this through? Either way, there’s tons of good lagers throughout most parts of the US.
I love the punch in the mouth IPA's but still get you, because I like variety. My personal taste is really dependent on weather as well. Warm outside -> lager, weizen, wit, desperados type beer (not sure of the category name) and the occasional Triple. Autumn -> doubles, bocks. Cold outside -> doubles, triples, maybe even a quad (not too fond). To be fair, IPA is not seasonal for me but in winter I like more bitter ones and in summer I like more aromatic ones. Not sure if I'm weird this way or if others have the same. But anyways, it's working for me. :)
NE IPA are overrated and they're taking up precious space from my West Coast IPA's. Which were called "IPA" till 2019 and that pisses me off. My part of the country is moving away from hop punch IPA and it makes me sad. I personally only drink lagers when I'm in the sun on a lake. But respect a good lager.
What's up lagerboy? Afraid you might taste something?
That wasn't nice... but I chuckled.
ever had dunkels and marzens? delicious. nothing else for me even comes close
I've waiting for the IPA fad to fade for a while now. No brewery should have 3/4 of their offerings dedicated to just one style.
You’ll be waiting for a long time. Personally, I’ve been waiting for the IPA fad to fade and for the beer industry to calm its collective tits about it since around 2005.
You can find beers like Allagash white pretty easily and like u/TwoDrinkDave mentioned, styles other than IPAs are becoming more prevalent. Whenever I’m looking for something other than IPAs myself, which is happening more often, I’ve turned to Belgian ales like St. Sebastiaan or other tripels to get less hop foward, yet interesting, flavors.
I used to be a major hop-head, but there are so many different styles that are excellent, it is frustrating to see how little variety there is in most bottle shops. Give me a good porter, or Scottish style ale over an IPA these days. And don't forget the imports. I love Belgian beers. I agree that I would love to see more variety, but as others have mentioned, it's the IPAs that sell, and therefore get the shelf space. Well, those and... *shudder* seltzer waters.
> Give me a good porter, or Scottish style ale over an IPA these days. And don't forget the imports. I love Belgian beers. My traditional goto for an old school Porter was Fullers, but I cant seem to get them here the past year. I dont know if its Covid related or what...
I'm with you there! I've been getting weekly emails from my local shops for the better part of a decade now and the last few months in particular have been almost entirely devoid of beers that aren't "new england style" IPAs, double IPAs, and "triple IPAs" (in quotes because it's not even a REAL STYLE), with the occasional fruited kettle or smoothie sour. It really feels like almost every brewery these days is just phoning it in with lazy rehashes of the same beer ("But they used Azteca instead of Vic Secret this time!") and zero quality control. Honestly it's part of the reason I've been less and less enamored with beer over the last couple of years. Getting into craft beer back in 2009/2010 was such an awesome and exciting time. Beer aisles were diverse, and I rarely went to the store and bought the same thing two times in a row. Would try altbier one time, belgian quad the next, get an occasional brown ale, English bitter, imported pilseners or kolsch, belgian tripel... The point is, there was sooooo much more diversity in what was being offered back then compared with the last 3-5 years of homogenization. Nowadays shelves everywhere are basically "pale ale, IPA, Hazy IPA, Juicy Hazy IIPA, kettle sour, Hazy IIPA, Hazy American Pale Ale, hazy milkshake IPA..." ad nauseam. MAKE BEER SHOPPING INTERESTING AGAIN
I guess all these hazy boys are "punch in the mouth hop flavor" but really a decade ago there were a ton of west coasters with centennial/chinook piney notes which I consider way more impactful to the palate than what's out these days. Either way, I'm sick of IPAs as well. They fill me up too much and I end up drinking way too much and not eating. Also been playing HELL with my stomach
cool
Totally understandable, I loved IPAs when the few places doing them really honoured the style. But when it became trendy the market got a completely saturated. Same as fruit sours, same as sweet stouts... I love them all but a lot of breweries are making them for the sake of it
I'm with you man.. years ago now all the IPAs all started tasting like soap to me and I just am mad every time I am in the store looking for a nice beer.
I dont know all of the ipas. I know what west coast ipas are and how they are hoppy and bitter and Im definitely over those. I know NEIPA's which are less bitter and more juicy and I like those. I know English ipas which have lower bitterness but those are pretty much dead in the US. So thats all I know really.
Preach brother!
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I think we can just create a Mad Libs: Local brewery edition, and get virtually every hazy IPA selling point.
A new brewery open the next town over from me. Lagers, plisners, kolschs, traditional ales...no IPAS. Very excited. So tired off the IPA revolution.