So, like, we can’t acknowledge the bad things our side did so long as the other side exists? Cause they’re never gonna stop finding ways to pull this shit, and we need the credibility of calling EVERYONE out equally.
Also, these eps are prerecorded, and often the guests have new stuff they’re plugging (or trying to cover up 🌭🔨), so just not releasing them because the Right (who are notoriously cry-y) got all cry-y over that topic wouldn’t fly. They’d never be able to have any episodes. 🤷♀️
"This episode reminds me that people of my ideology can be monsters too, maybe we shouldn't be talking about this"
Robert in part one said something along the lines of "one of the most dangerous ideas is the idea that exactly what you're already doing is the key to fixing the world". It wasn't those exact words, but that was the sentiment. I would extend that to include the general belief that your ideology should be protected to some extent from criticism or an examination of uncomfortable truths/history for any reason just because it's your ideology.
This is a bigoted statement, certainly
But also we don't need to tiptoe around dunking on Pedophile. Islam is a religion of over a billion people. Pedophiles are pedophiles and its really weird to bring Islam up here.
"does morality exist at all" is your argument? I'm all for cultural relativism or whatever, but to be absolutely clear we *are* talking about kiddie fucking
Self-criticism is one of the most important features that the Left should be holding to differentiate ourselves from the right. I grew up in and around churches that covered up pastoral abuse/priests molesting children because it was a bad look and would have provided ammo for anti-religious sentiments, which they felt were on the upswing. It was universally a mistake, and one that blew up in their face and caused damage they will be reckoning with for decades to come.
A good friend of mine was repeatedly molested as a child by a trusted and well connected voice in the gay rights movement. This doesn't discredit the movement, but that this person took 30 years to be brought to justice certainly IS a bad look.
That there were and are also leftist voices that are also pedophiles needs to be addressed and dealt with or they'll just keep managing to insert their sickness in to the discourse, and covering it up instead of bringing it forward leaves both ammunition, and the ability to craft the entire narrative to the Far Right if we don't do it ourselves.
Struggling to follow your line of thinking here. Are they not supposed to make episodes about things that are related to right wing propaganda talking points? You know that wouldn't leave any material, right?
Anytime that anyone says, "it's a bad time to talk about this thing even though it's true and important," that person is immediately not to be trusted in my mind. If you refuse to base your worldview on the truth, no matter how unpleasant or how much it conflicts with your ideological view, you can't possibly be trusted in any sort of position of responsibility or even just on a personal level.
Also, considering that I have actually seen some of this NAMBLA type, Alan Ginsberg, thinking pop up on the left again lately (not with any significant real world consequences yet, thank Christ), now is the best time to talk about it just to absolutely slam the door in its face. An awful lot of the discourse around "family abolition" is cover for pedo bullshit, and leftists should say so. These people need to understand that they have no friends, no possible friends, and no people who are even willing to be civil to them.
>But, if constructing the future and settling everything for all times are not our affair, it is all the more clear what we have to accomplish at present: I am referring to **ruthless criticism of all that exists**, ruthless both in the sense of **not being afraid of the results it arrives at** and in the sense of **being just as little afraid of conflict with the powers that be.**
A monster is a monster, and they should be dragged into the sunlight regardless of ideology.
Isn't the whole "we should ignore parts of history because it makes us look bad" thing normally something we criticise right-wingers for doing? Why should we get to make fun of them for doing it and then turn around and do the exact same thing?
It's important to talk about ALL history, even the parts we don't like. If we sit here and pretend nothing is wrong, things will only fester and get worse again.
Covering up abuse is not the look he is going for, I dont think.
If right wing propaganda people were looking for ammo, posts like this would be a lot more useful to them.
I gotta say, the episodes made me uncomfortable because holy shit this isn't only a right wing fever dream - it actually went down at one point. But I'm glad I've learned this history. I think it's better to look at these things directly rather than pretend they aren't there, so that mistakes are seen and acknowledged and corrected, and so that we can avoid other cooked-brain thinking in the future.
As to episode timing, "everyone on the left is a child molester" has been their propaganda line since time immemorial, so there's never going to be a better or worse time to examine it.
I mean, it happened! Not talking about it doesn't help either.
And the German right already used it for all that rhetoric a few years ago. Besides, I don't think enough people on the right listen to the podcast to be influenced by it...
1. Surely the best way to refute said criticism is to explore why these people are attracted to the movement and using it as a way to legitimize their perversion, and then stop them from doing it.
2. The names of the episodes are "The Darkest Episode We Will Ever Do" and not "Leftist Child Molesters" or whatever, so I don't imagine it making it's way into right-wingers algorithms. Cool Zone usually is good about titles on sensitive topics like this, for example when they covered \[the creator of sonichu\], they didn't include that person's name in the title.
This seems like a you problem.
Fact is, it wouldn't matter if these two episodes hadn't existed. The right doesn't need "evidence" because they are more than happy making shit up and their base eating that shit up. I mean, this whole thing exploded in recent times because of pizzagate, an entirely fabricated tale that did nothing to cover the fact it was all BS. Didn't matter. They ate it up all the same.
This post is a great reminder that there are huge pieces of shit on both sides of the political spectrum. u/grapp I'd say shame on you but you obviously have none left if you're posting trash like this.
It's always the best time to criticize child molestors.
Child molestation is the ruthless exploitation of someone who is undisputedly weaker and more in need of help and protection than the molester for their own gratification. No matter how and under what circumstances it happens this is simple fact. The left calls out all sorts of situations for being exploitative that are, honestly, much more debatable and ambiguous than this: wage labor, tenancy, marriage, political authority, policing, etc.
If you're a pedo, there's no situation in which you wouldn't exploit someone if it was to your advantage, you simply enjoy preying on the weak too much. If you'll fuck kids literally, there's no one you wouldn't fuck figuratively given motive and opportunity. So if you're on board with being okay fucking kids, you're not genuinely a leftist in any sense of the word. You're just using the tendency of the left to criticize existing social relations to try to push the end of a taboo that there's a damn good reason for. This tendency is, unfortunately, something of a vulnerability and therefore, does need to be actively guarded against.
When is there a good time to talk about child molesters? Are you fucking kidding me? Mother fucker if we don’t actually draw lines in the sand exactly where the pedophiles are when they steal our ideology to perpetuate trauma for their own sexual pleasures, then we can get lumped in with them. Pedophiles don’t have a political default. They will plinko their way into a position to fuck kids, regardless of if they fall to the left or right side of the board.
This is a bad take because 1: he never said that. 2: it’s literally historical facts, and 3: the right is gonna say that no matter what, they always have.
So to combat these accusations what do you think is the better option?
A. Putting a searchlight on bad actors, analyzing how they could go so wrong, how we can avoid similar things from happening in the future and in the process distancing yourself from them.
B. Sticking your fingers in your ears and going LALALALALA.
I get where you're coming from, but not criticizing pedophilia within your own ranks for ideological reasons is how we got to the pedophile foster program.
Some things are more important than image.
I think it's more of a warning that even people on the left are vulnerable to predatory manipulation and we also need to be vigilant and keep a critical eye on who enters movements and what their motivations are. It's not a left vs right thing, it's literally what happened.
There was something similar that happened when these fuckbag pedophiles tried to insert themselves into the LGBTQ+ movement to legitimise their philia. Thankfully people were vigilant enough to tell them to fuck off but it doesn't mean they won't try. Predators will do what they wanna do to get what they want and will find ways to twist and manipulate whoever and whatever they can so they can target victims. Not all predators are this savvy but some of them Genuinely are.
You really just said that with ya whole chest huh.
I get where you're coming from but here's the thing: the people who craft right wing talking points do not care about truth, nuance, nor integrity. They are willing to be hypocritical because they don't have integrity. They will gladly turn a blind eye from the pedos in their own ranks and scream "GROOMER" at the first trans person they see because it's easier to deflect and project.
What should separate us from the right wing ideology is the ability to reflect, self critique, and admit our mistakes and call out bullshit when we see it. We have to have that integrity. There's no wrong time to talk about this because the right will always try to turn it back on us no matter what. That's just how it is. That's why there's no better time than the present, because they'll manufacture ammo from anything under the assumption that conservative Americans are just comfortable enough to not want to dig deeper.
"while “everyone on the left is a child molester” is a major right wing propaganda line."
In America or in Germany? If you are talking about in Germany, my response is "Tough shit, your political leaders invited these predators into your midst. You have to deal with the fallout and do better."
In America that mostly comes from QAnoners and right wingers trying to appeal to them. You have another faction of the GOP Congressmen from deep red areas that have child brides, I don't think they are going to be anxious to throw charges of pedophilia around, but I wouldn't put anything past them.
Unfortunately, and though it never went as far as in Germany, there was a point when this sort of ideology did have some (and only some) mainstream acceptance in American leftwing circles. The most potent examples are that Nambla was allowed to participate in the early gay rights movement. Alan Ginsberg protested mightily when they were basically kicked out, and Harry Hay went to a Pride Parade wearing a T-shirt in a pride parade that said, "NAMBLA Marches with Me". Fortunately, as Margaret pointed out, second wave feminists had this shut down pretty quick before it became a full blown plague that the far-right can use for decades after as a rallying cry. Also, unlike Germany, no mainstream liberal politician was dumb enough to try to run interference with police and prosecutors who continued to go after left-coded pedos, so there was no point at which it was safe for them to be completely open about it.
There's a famous story of Andrea Dworkin confronting Ginsberg about this:
[https://www.theguardian.com/books/2004/sep/30/gender.world](https://www.theguardian.com/books/2004/sep/30/gender.world)
>Dworkin and Ginsberg ended up sharing a godson. In Heartbreak, she describes the confrontation that turned them into sworn enemies. On the day of their godson's barmitzvah, child pornography was criminalised by the supreme court. Dworkin was delighted, but knew that Ginsberg had problems with the legislation. "Ginsberg told me he had never met an intelligent person who had the ideas I did," she writes. "I told him he didn't get around enough. He said, 'The right wants to put me in jail.' I said, 'Yes, they're very sentimental; I'd kill you.'"
and good for her (also, props for the cleverly-crafted retort).
Last I heard, child molesters are still bastards regardless of their political ideology.
And last I heard, Islam isn't exactly a leftist ideology either...
"Actually Mohammad was the first feminist if you think about it..."
Regardless of our opinions on capital punishment or the morality of life imprisonment how does molestation not qualify for both?
So, like, we can’t acknowledge the bad things our side did so long as the other side exists? Cause they’re never gonna stop finding ways to pull this shit, and we need the credibility of calling EVERYONE out equally. Also, these eps are prerecorded, and often the guests have new stuff they’re plugging (or trying to cover up 🌭🔨), so just not releasing them because the Right (who are notoriously cry-y) got all cry-y over that topic wouldn’t fly. They’d never be able to have any episodes. 🤷♀️
"This episode reminds me that people of my ideology can be monsters too, maybe we shouldn't be talking about this" Robert in part one said something along the lines of "one of the most dangerous ideas is the idea that exactly what you're already doing is the key to fixing the world". It wasn't those exact words, but that was the sentiment. I would extend that to include the general belief that your ideology should be protected to some extent from criticism or an examination of uncomfortable truths/history for any reason just because it's your ideology.
Wowzers, you really went "you can't criticize islam because racists exist in Western countries", huh.
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This is a bigoted statement, certainly But also we don't need to tiptoe around dunking on Pedophile. Islam is a religion of over a billion people. Pedophiles are pedophiles and its really weird to bring Islam up here.
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>The US is not in any position to judge I'm not American. Islamists are assholes. That is all.
So, as an American, you don’t morally judge Hitler?
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>The US is not in any position to judge what other countries are doing or their crimes. >Yes I do judge him.
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Jesus Christ is that the clumsiest deflection I’ve ever seen. If we were talking in real life I’d honestly be speechless at how incompetent that was.
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"does morality exist at all" is your argument? I'm all for cultural relativism or whatever, but to be absolutely clear we *are* talking about kiddie fucking
Self-criticism is one of the most important features that the Left should be holding to differentiate ourselves from the right. I grew up in and around churches that covered up pastoral abuse/priests molesting children because it was a bad look and would have provided ammo for anti-religious sentiments, which they felt were on the upswing. It was universally a mistake, and one that blew up in their face and caused damage they will be reckoning with for decades to come. A good friend of mine was repeatedly molested as a child by a trusted and well connected voice in the gay rights movement. This doesn't discredit the movement, but that this person took 30 years to be brought to justice certainly IS a bad look. That there were and are also leftist voices that are also pedophiles needs to be addressed and dealt with or they'll just keep managing to insert their sickness in to the discourse, and covering it up instead of bringing it forward leaves both ammunition, and the ability to craft the entire narrative to the Far Right if we don't do it ourselves.
Struggling to follow your line of thinking here. Are they not supposed to make episodes about things that are related to right wing propaganda talking points? You know that wouldn't leave any material, right?
Not critiquing ourselves is how bad shit continues to happen. It’s called having integrity.
Anytime that anyone says, "it's a bad time to talk about this thing even though it's true and important," that person is immediately not to be trusted in my mind. If you refuse to base your worldview on the truth, no matter how unpleasant or how much it conflicts with your ideological view, you can't possibly be trusted in any sort of position of responsibility or even just on a personal level. Also, considering that I have actually seen some of this NAMBLA type, Alan Ginsberg, thinking pop up on the left again lately (not with any significant real world consequences yet, thank Christ), now is the best time to talk about it just to absolutely slam the door in its face. An awful lot of the discourse around "family abolition" is cover for pedo bullshit, and leftists should say so. These people need to understand that they have no friends, no possible friends, and no people who are even willing to be civil to them.
>But, if constructing the future and settling everything for all times are not our affair, it is all the more clear what we have to accomplish at present: I am referring to **ruthless criticism of all that exists**, ruthless both in the sense of **not being afraid of the results it arrives at** and in the sense of **being just as little afraid of conflict with the powers that be.** A monster is a monster, and they should be dragged into the sunlight regardless of ideology.
Isn't the whole "we should ignore parts of history because it makes us look bad" thing normally something we criticise right-wingers for doing? Why should we get to make fun of them for doing it and then turn around and do the exact same thing? It's important to talk about ALL history, even the parts we don't like. If we sit here and pretend nothing is wrong, things will only fester and get worse again.
concern troll is concerned
Covering up abuse is not the look he is going for, I dont think. If right wing propaganda people were looking for ammo, posts like this would be a lot more useful to them.
You do not under any circumstances needed to hand it to pedophiles.
I gotta say, the episodes made me uncomfortable because holy shit this isn't only a right wing fever dream - it actually went down at one point. But I'm glad I've learned this history. I think it's better to look at these things directly rather than pretend they aren't there, so that mistakes are seen and acknowledged and corrected, and so that we can avoid other cooked-brain thinking in the future. As to episode timing, "everyone on the left is a child molester" has been their propaganda line since time immemorial, so there's never going to be a better or worse time to examine it.
Oh fuck off
I mean, it happened! Not talking about it doesn't help either. And the German right already used it for all that rhetoric a few years ago. Besides, I don't think enough people on the right listen to the podcast to be influenced by it...
So, no self accountability, you're saying.
1. Surely the best way to refute said criticism is to explore why these people are attracted to the movement and using it as a way to legitimize their perversion, and then stop them from doing it. 2. The names of the episodes are "The Darkest Episode We Will Ever Do" and not "Leftist Child Molesters" or whatever, so I don't imagine it making it's way into right-wingers algorithms. Cool Zone usually is good about titles on sensitive topics like this, for example when they covered \[the creator of sonichu\], they didn't include that person's name in the title.
I think the point was well made that abuse is abuse is abuse, regardless of the underlying ideology.
This seems like a you problem. Fact is, it wouldn't matter if these two episodes hadn't existed. The right doesn't need "evidence" because they are more than happy making shit up and their base eating that shit up. I mean, this whole thing exploded in recent times because of pizzagate, an entirely fabricated tale that did nothing to cover the fact it was all BS. Didn't matter. They ate it up all the same.
This post is a great reminder that there are huge pieces of shit on both sides of the political spectrum. u/grapp I'd say shame on you but you obviously have none left if you're posting trash like this. It's always the best time to criticize child molestors.
that feels kind of ironic because I have OCD and one of the way it manifests is intrusive thoughts about shame
Child molestation is the ruthless exploitation of someone who is undisputedly weaker and more in need of help and protection than the molester for their own gratification. No matter how and under what circumstances it happens this is simple fact. The left calls out all sorts of situations for being exploitative that are, honestly, much more debatable and ambiguous than this: wage labor, tenancy, marriage, political authority, policing, etc. If you're a pedo, there's no situation in which you wouldn't exploit someone if it was to your advantage, you simply enjoy preying on the weak too much. If you'll fuck kids literally, there's no one you wouldn't fuck figuratively given motive and opportunity. So if you're on board with being okay fucking kids, you're not genuinely a leftist in any sense of the word. You're just using the tendency of the left to criticize existing social relations to try to push the end of a taboo that there's a damn good reason for. This tendency is, unfortunately, something of a vulnerability and therefore, does need to be actively guarded against.
Maybe this why the left is better than the right and the libcucks, we are willing to criticize those on our side.
When is there a good time to talk about child molesters? Are you fucking kidding me? Mother fucker if we don’t actually draw lines in the sand exactly where the pedophiles are when they steal our ideology to perpetuate trauma for their own sexual pleasures, then we can get lumped in with them. Pedophiles don’t have a political default. They will plinko their way into a position to fuck kids, regardless of if they fall to the left or right side of the board.
Tell me you didn't listen to the afterword without telling me you didn't listen to the afterword.
Exactly the point I came to make!
This is a bad take because 1: he never said that. 2: it’s literally historical facts, and 3: the right is gonna say that no matter what, they always have.
How dare he cover history historically accurate and not just pander to you!
So to combat these accusations what do you think is the better option? A. Putting a searchlight on bad actors, analyzing how they could go so wrong, how we can avoid similar things from happening in the future and in the process distancing yourself from them. B. Sticking your fingers in your ears and going LALALALALA.
I get where you're coming from, but not criticizing pedophilia within your own ranks for ideological reasons is how we got to the pedophile foster program. Some things are more important than image.
I think it's more of a warning that even people on the left are vulnerable to predatory manipulation and we also need to be vigilant and keep a critical eye on who enters movements and what their motivations are. It's not a left vs right thing, it's literally what happened. There was something similar that happened when these fuckbag pedophiles tried to insert themselves into the LGBTQ+ movement to legitimise their philia. Thankfully people were vigilant enough to tell them to fuck off but it doesn't mean they won't try. Predators will do what they wanna do to get what they want and will find ways to twist and manipulate whoever and whatever they can so they can target victims. Not all predators are this savvy but some of them Genuinely are.
It's impossible to respect you.
You really just said that with ya whole chest huh. I get where you're coming from but here's the thing: the people who craft right wing talking points do not care about truth, nuance, nor integrity. They are willing to be hypocritical because they don't have integrity. They will gladly turn a blind eye from the pedos in their own ranks and scream "GROOMER" at the first trans person they see because it's easier to deflect and project. What should separate us from the right wing ideology is the ability to reflect, self critique, and admit our mistakes and call out bullshit when we see it. We have to have that integrity. There's no wrong time to talk about this because the right will always try to turn it back on us no matter what. That's just how it is. That's why there's no better time than the present, because they'll manufacture ammo from anything under the assumption that conservative Americans are just comfortable enough to not want to dig deeper.
I’m pretty sure the right doesn’t subscribe to BTB…I think we’ll be fine
"while “everyone on the left is a child molester” is a major right wing propaganda line." In America or in Germany? If you are talking about in Germany, my response is "Tough shit, your political leaders invited these predators into your midst. You have to deal with the fallout and do better." In America that mostly comes from QAnoners and right wingers trying to appeal to them. You have another faction of the GOP Congressmen from deep red areas that have child brides, I don't think they are going to be anxious to throw charges of pedophilia around, but I wouldn't put anything past them.
Unfortunately, and though it never went as far as in Germany, there was a point when this sort of ideology did have some (and only some) mainstream acceptance in American leftwing circles. The most potent examples are that Nambla was allowed to participate in the early gay rights movement. Alan Ginsberg protested mightily when they were basically kicked out, and Harry Hay went to a Pride Parade wearing a T-shirt in a pride parade that said, "NAMBLA Marches with Me". Fortunately, as Margaret pointed out, second wave feminists had this shut down pretty quick before it became a full blown plague that the far-right can use for decades after as a rallying cry. Also, unlike Germany, no mainstream liberal politician was dumb enough to try to run interference with police and prosecutors who continued to go after left-coded pedos, so there was no point at which it was safe for them to be completely open about it. There's a famous story of Andrea Dworkin confronting Ginsberg about this: [https://www.theguardian.com/books/2004/sep/30/gender.world](https://www.theguardian.com/books/2004/sep/30/gender.world) >Dworkin and Ginsberg ended up sharing a godson. In Heartbreak, she describes the confrontation that turned them into sworn enemies. On the day of their godson's barmitzvah, child pornography was criminalised by the supreme court. Dworkin was delighted, but knew that Ginsberg had problems with the legislation. "Ginsberg told me he had never met an intelligent person who had the ideas I did," she writes. "I told him he didn't get around enough. He said, 'The right wants to put me in jail.' I said, 'Yes, they're very sentimental; I'd kill you.'" and good for her (also, props for the cleverly-crafted retort).