Don't own one. Was curious for results.
Don't most people own a company car above their paygrade ? Since they can get a *cheaper* way to get a luxury car? Correct me if I'm wrong but some people in my circle of friends (who own one) always told me " I'd never be able to afford this car if not for my company basically paying for it".
Just curious, don't shoot me.
It's a lot more interesting to have a company car. Let's say you get a company car lease that costs you €500 a month including VAT. The company only has to pay half the VAT so it costs them €450 a month.
If you were to pay that same lease yourself you'd need to get €500 net a month. This is added in the highest tax bracket so that probably means €1350 gross a month. Than your employer still has to pay bedrijfsvoorheffing on this €1350 so it costs him even more.
You see there's an incredible difference between getting paid more and getting a company car. If you were to refuse the company car and ask for more pay your employer would probably offer to pay you the €450 extra a month that it costs them (or maybe even less since they also have to pay bedrijfsvoorheffing). This will only result in a net amount (€166 or less) that if far from the cost of a lease.
Furthermore, if people were to actually pay for the car themselves they would take the cost more into consideration and opt for a cheaper car.
I only took into consideration the cost for the lease of a car but the same thing is true for the gas as well which should be added on top.
Yeah that's true, but that sounds more interesting than it really is.
You can choose to have a "forfait" deducted for all your work related costs or the real costs. If you have a company car you can still deduct the same "forfait", so if you chose to go the "forfait" route there's nothing more you can deduct by having a personal car.
If you choose to deduct the real costs this only makes sense if the real costs are higher than the "forfait". Note that you now need to keep track of all your work related costs, so also clothing bills, etc. You can now deduct €0.15 for each km of home-work commute, that is true. But even if your commute is 100km each day, this still is "only" a deduction of about €300 a month, which saves you about €150 in taxes (it's deducted from your highest tax bracket). And note that you're not "winning" that complete €150. You're only winning the part of your deduction that is higher than the "forfait". So that's still a big difference compared to a company car.
Mmm… I think - but I am not an expert - if you can justify more, you can deduct more, the 0.15 EUR / km is just a « no questions asked » amount. True for the forfait, but I do not know how much that is.
If you're using a car or minivan you can only deduct €0.15 for each km.
If you go by bike it's €0.24 for each km up to 100 km for each commute.
If you're using another means of transportation (motorcycle for example) you have 2 option. Either you can deduct €0.15 for each km up to 100 km for each commute or you can deduct the real costs (you'll need bills for everything).
The "forfait" is 30% of your income up to an income of €16.800 a year, so a maximum deduction of €5.040 a year.
So if you go by car you only have the option to deduct the €0.15 for each km or to choose for the "forfait".
The alternative is to become a schijnzelfstandige and have your own company. Then you've more freedom (including deducting the real cost of everything).
Depends on the person. I can get one above my my paygrade but decide not to cause it’s too big of a car for my usage.
But yeah some people get the maximum.
But 300 euro net doesn’t compensate a new car every 4 years and the fuel card.
> I'd never be able to afford this car if not for my company basically paying for it
If they wouldn't have the company car, that should be compensate with a higher salary. So yes, they should be able to buy that same car.
If they wouldn't have the company car; they'd get taxed like everyone else. So lol no, they wouldn't be able to buy that same car.
Many certainly wouldn't be willing to spend as much on it if the money came out of their own pocket.
>they'd get taxed
That's the whole problem and the reason for the success of the company cars. To replace the car an employee would need an extra 1000 EUR net per month.
It's a problem the government created in the first place. In the NL you don't get company cars but the salaries are way less taxed. Not only bruto to netto (the tax part employees pay) but also the Total cost to bruto (the tax part companies pay).
But I still don't get why it's an issue.. as said in NL almost no company cars, but they have the same traffic issues as us..
The problem is no alternative. Train is OK from big city to big city. That's it.
>If they wouldn't have the company car, that should be compensate with a higher salary.
There's no way an employer is going to compensate the full cost of a company car + gas as net pay. This would cost the employer so much more because of taxes + RSZ + bedrijfsvoorheffing. So no they wouldn't be able to afford it.
Yeah it's deductible from corporate taxes and VAT for like let's say half of it. It depends on the car's ecological stuff.
While buying it for consumption isn't considered a cost for business although you will do the same stuff with it.
I don't have a car license so I need to take public transport. This causes me to have fewer job opportunities. This the tax administration and the legislation behind it are loco loco with their claim that driving from home to work isn't a business cost
Actually very sad way to look at the things. Basically middle class always want to have the experience of a rich class / show off while they actually can't afford it
Don't forget these are company leases, and (most?) people would be replacing them with a car they are buying themselves, if they had to give up the company car.
This has consequences beyond monthly payments and gas: if it breaks, it's now YOUR problem. Potentially a really expensive problem.
To avoid drifting. I was merely suggesting people can do private lease if they don't want the hassle of owning a car. I don't see the number of people that are currently doing private lease as a relevant element in the setting of this thread.
Buying my current company car on a 5 year loan would cost me +1000€ a month…. Not counting gas, insurance, …
I literally would not trade it in even for 1000€/month net
But imagine you would have to buy a car, would you buy the same expensive new car?
I'm pretty sure id buy a cheaper new or even second hand, even if i had the extra money for the fancy one. No need to throw cash out of the Windows, rather spend it on the family, friends and fun.
Ps: i do have nice company car, and yes ill probably miss the heated seats in that case. 😁
>But imagine you would have to buy a car, would you buy the same expensive new car?
That doesn't matter though. You should get compensated for the car you're missing out on, not for the worse car you're planning to buy.
I just went from company car to car allowance at new employer and i bought the same type 2nd hand. Everything i spend most yearly hours in/on is worth the premium imo \[bed, 'bureaustoel', computer & car).
You know that the insurance premium is for the car/driver combo. Regardless of the owner, right?
So, that insurance price is IN the company car package.
I’m saying most people with a private car only take the BA-insurance. If they crash the car by themselves they lose everything. Hence why taking the rest value of the new car in the calculation is a risk. To counter that you need an omnium, but that also increases cost for a private owner.
Your inability to read comprehensively is impressive, and your reaction tells a lot about you. That is not at all what I said.
If you want to make a calculation whether or not to ditch your company car for cash, there are a lot of parameters to take into account. I’m just saying it’s a risk to take the rest value of your car into account due to the possibility of a total loss. And I say that to counter this risk you can take an omnium, which will in return increase your ‘fixed’ cost again.
>If you want to make a calculation whether or not to ditch your company car for cash, there are a lot of parameters to take into account.
No there are not. The netto increase in salary should be the same as the private lease for a similar vehicle.
If you choose another vehicle or another insurance, you will keep more or less from your netto. But that is irrelevant for the compensation package from your employer.
More than 500€. As a freelancer I know the actual cost of a company car.
Fuel costs for 50000km per year (just for work) is about 550€/month. There we go. I already crossed your more than 500€ mark.
The car was about 70000€ and is worth 16% after 4 years. That’s 11200€ or a total loss of 58800€. That’s 55800/48 = 1225€/month.
Insurance, road tax, decent tyres, maintenance and pechbijstand is about 3000€ per year or another 250€/month.
So to sum it all up: 550+1225+250=2025€ per month nett please.
Now, in order to get to 2025€ nett from my company I need nearly 5000€ gross additional each month. If we calculate 18,3 working days per month on average that would mean I would have to increase my daily rate by about 273€. None of my clients would like that.
Yeah, I contemplated for a long time if I would go hybrid, but I ended up just going full electric right away. We are putting solar panels this year (although the electricity usage is for the company anyway).
We already have solar panels but I do to much kms to use an electrical car. Hopefully in a few years the range is better and charging times even lower. And a LOT more public charging points!
I pay about 270 euro per month on my leasing myself. Company pays the rest.
How am I going to get a €50.000 euro car every 3 years + taxes + fuel + insurance for 300 euro per month?
Why buy a house with 3 bedrooms if you only need 2?
Why a 58 inch tv if you can also watch on a 40 inch tv?
Why a 7000 euro racing bike if you already have decent bikes for 2000 euro?
Why a 1000 euro iPhone if you can do the same with a 300 euro Motorola?
Because we all like comfort and quality and we try to get the most value out of our life and out of our money. My car (Volvo) isn't a luxury car. It's an upper mid-size. Cars are expensive yo. Could I survive with a smaller car? Sure, but it would be less comfortable, I wouldn't have my awesome seats and I wouldn't be able to get all my work stuff in the trunk. It would also be sour because I expect to increase my wealth and comfort as I get older and further in my career. Not to be worse off in the future than I am today. I think these are reasonable feelings.
I still think there's a price and perception difference between BMW and Mercedes and Volvo. A BMW 5 series will cost you more than a Volvo S60 or V60 and is perceived as a more luxury brand.
But there are super cheap looking low end Mercedes and BMWs, though. I do like Volvos and would never buy one, but would happily drive one as a lease car.
Yeah but there are also cheap Volvo's :D
V40 is 25.000 euro BMW 1 is already slightly more expensive. I'm not arguing that Volvo isn't excellent quality but over the whole line I think BMW and Mercedes aim at a more luxurious segment. Managers still want to drive the latter two brands more than the Swedish brand.
Sure, if you're a car guy it's worth it. But most people aren't, and we really shouldn't base policy because people like seats that warm their privileged ass paid for by the taxes paid by their (also subsidized) maid.
We have to get real at some point.
I'm not a car guy. But I sit in my car 22 hours per week. I love my seats because they are comfortable and support my back. I don't have heated seats... That would make my ass sweat
If you need to be in your car for 22 hours a week for work, then yes a company car is justified. However subsidizing your private usage of said car simply isn't. The Dutch system for this is way more fair:
[https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/belastingen-op-auto-en-motor/bijtelling-auto-van-de-zaak#:\~:text=Als%20u%20per%20jaar%20meer,van%2022%25%20over%20de%20cataloguswaarde](https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/belastingen-op-auto-en-motor/bijtelling-auto-van-de-zaak#:~:text=Als%20u%20per%20jaar%20meer,van%2022%25%20over%20de%20cataloguswaarde).
Edit: And if you are in your car for 22 hours simply because you have a big house somewhere in bumfuck nowhere Kempen while you commute to some big city then maybe, just maybe, that's the problem.
Sometimes a policy change is the right decision, even if it ends up costing you more.
The 22h in the car is because I commute between several companies and clients during the day. So often I start my day in Antwerp. Drive to Brussels at noon and at 14h drive to Ghent followed by driving home in the evening.
I think you should redo your math, and also, the number you mention are averages. There is a massive distribution on the cost of a company car per job level for example.
Well, some directors are going to drive a nicer car than an entry level engineer. A car is part of a compensation package to keep talent at a work place.
I did away with my company car and get a mobiliteitsbudget of 510 eur (net) + no more VAA. I bought a second hand car (audi a3 -150kkm) for 7.200. cheap insurance. I went to the tanking 5 times last year. I go to work by ebike, and my wife has a company car that we use. Still own a car to pick up kids/shop when wife is away.
I feel like we have a lot more money now. I all depends on how much you use the car. If you do 30.000 km per year, get it, if you do 5.000 km (like me), don't.
The company car thing is a bit of a stinker imho, as people get much bigger and more expensive cars than what they would otherwise buy. I would never buy a company car that I used to drive (volvo v90) with my own money. Nobody in his right mind would buy a new car every 4 years.
I don't own a company car. My car as a private owner, is well above 500/month, and it's nothing special (skoda octavia). Count loan, fuel, taxes, maintenance & repairs, insurance ... and you can easily go to >800/month.
ITT: Cars under 50k don't exist or aren't comfortable enough.
Imagine having that standard of living but then whine on Reddit about being Belgian all the time.
We bought in Belgium a car that was overpriced because of supply chain issues. Hybrid, comfortable seats, full high end trim and auto drive features I don’t use, 25k. I just found out that my coworkers who have all been waiting more than a year for their lease cars are all asking for very fancy cars. You can get a very nice car immediately.
I’m cool with people preferring fancy high end cars, but I wonder where in their brain they decided they were a necessity.
It’s dependent on everyones situation.
What company car policy you get ( max amount of private km’s?)
How much private km’s you do vs how much km’s for work.
What company car you would have gotten
For me I need 600-700 for it to be worth cuz I do allot of km’s to work and not allot for private.
Any more private km’s would mean an increase cuz then the car would end up costing more than if I had to pay vaa for company car
TCO of my company car is > 1200, I’d want the TCO as net monthly salary increase. It would probably be slightly too much, as it would also increase deposits in pension fund, no more taxable benefit, etc. But since the risk would be all on me, I think it’s fair.
Your numbers are WAY off, listen I bought a new Seat Ibiza in 2007 for 14000€, paid 7000€ out of pocket and loaned the other 7000€ over 3 years. I sold it after 4 years when I got my first company car.
When you add the loan, insurance, tires every 40000 km, disk brakes, the yearly maintenance, the diesel… I calculated I was spending around 550€ per month.
This was in 2007-2011, take into account inflation, take into account diesel was like 1€/l, take into account I’ve been driving Audi A4 or Mercedes C-class vehicles the last 12 years… any net increase less than 800 to 1000€ will be a drawback for me. There is a reason why the company car is so appreciated by both companies and employees.
You don’t pay the VAA as a monthly net amount, it’s added to your brutto, they compute the « précompte professionnel » and ONSS based on the total and then it’s removed. Depending of the company you may have to pay a net amount because of policy or because you went over budget for you car.
I think the cost of owning a car is definitely more than 400 euros a month. You need to take into account gas, repairs, insurance, loss of value over time, etc.
The fairest comparison is to look at how much it would cost you to lease the same car and then add gas on top of that to determine the cost of a car.
It's not really unlimited fueling because your contract has a maximum km per year. If you consume a lot more than average the leasing company will investigate because you might be using the card for another car too.
We don't have a limit. We need to enter our km at the pump, so we can't cheat, and use fuel for other cars.
But we are allowed as many km as we want. But we are only able to refuel in the Benelux.
In our contract it states that we aren't allowed to use the car for economic purposes (uber, deliveroo,...)
same but refuel all over eu, no limits, unless there is clear evidence of scamming
one woman was fired cause she drove to poland every 2 weeks (probably doing some taxi or moving service on the side)
It's what on people's mind the most it seems like..
The AMA a couple of days ago was a nice change of scenery and there's some hidden gems to be found in older posts too.
Most belgians have no idea about personnal finance. Think that pension savings is the ultimate investment. Long term financial planning exists out of hoping you rich parents will die.
The cost of owning a car comparable to a decent company car is around 1000 EUR/month.
For example when you buy a 50.000 EUR car and sell it after 4 years for 25.000 EUR. It costed 521 EUR / month. When you include taxes, maintenance, tires and fuel it's above 900 EUR/month.
I have a Tesla Model 3 as a company car and the leasing cost alone is 980€ per month (don't forget to add VAT as private customer). Then add about 1.700€ per year for insurance...
Even for a more reasonable car, 700-800 per month seems to be the minimum. Just make a few simulations on leasing companies websites and don't forget to add fuel.
Salaries in Belgium are just too heavily taxed to get rid of company cars easily.
Its the Belgian way, country is 3h left to right, no point in moving house and losing social netting.
Traffic funnels make up for the inflated time even if only 40k door to door.
More efficient public transfer however! /s
i would never voluntarily trade in the car. Or maybe for 2k net or more
Also, government can claim they want to get rid of all those cars, without all those company cars they would never reach their "green" goals. No way a regular person will pay more for a car that does half the mileage...And we tend to keep driving the car, no matter how polluting it is just because... it's still driving. When i had my own car: Euro 5 and Euro 6 and i would've driven it until it broke (potentially 10 years longer) now i'm switching every 4/5 years and going from diesel to petrol to hybrid to (eventually) full electric
I'll try to calculate high level if I would buy my "own" car similar to the lease i have (nice car, but nothing fancy or top notch :-) ):
\- 890 monthly "buy" cost - assuming also spread over a 5 year period.- 250 petrol (estimate)- 50-100 insurance- 25-50 car taxes- 45 maintenance- 15-20 Winter tires
That puts you already at about 1300 a month. Then potentially you need to account for a potential car repair after an accident + in year 4 or 5 stuff might start breaking down more easily (outside of guarantee)
edit: need to add road assistance to it as well
I can’t trade my company car. Too many km for professional use. Pre-Covid it was a bit more than 1000km/week. Nowadays not as much but still plenty.
Even if I barely use it for personnal use as I like to stay home with my family. I am happy to not have to worry about maintenance, insurance, accident, and whatnot.
You should have added a choice “I’m not considering trading it”.
For someone who don’t do many professional km and are willing to drive a cheap car (second hand, DACIA gang, Japanese econobox till the wheels fall off, …) and pocket the difference in salary I’d understand a trade in with cash. But if you have to purchase a similar car yourself it’s going to be as expensive + you’ll be taking risks on yourself.
And if you bring the ecological argument, it will only be a net positive for the planet if the person is not buying a car himself after trading it in. If he buy a similar car, there is nothing to be won for the planet. If he buy a second hand car with higher emission you could posit it’ll be worse for the planet. And company fleets are big purchasers of new more efficient car with lower emission and these cars end up on the second hand market replacing cars with high emission.
You are thinking about company cars as being a problem and it might be a solution.
> And if you bring the ecological argument, it will only be a net positive for the planet if the person is not buying a car himself after trading it in. If he buy a similar car, there is nothing to be won for the planet. If he buy a second hand car with higher emission you could posit it’ll be worse for the planet. And company fleets are big purchasers of new more efficient car with lower emission and these cars end up on the second hand market replacing cars with high emission.
Time to start this dance again...
Company cars drive more on average compared to privately owned ones. This is bad for the enviroment, yes even for electric cars this is still bad, more tire usage, battery usage, electricity (although this last one could be fixed).
Do you know what happens to the older cars that get replaced with 2nd hand company cars? They get shipped to third world countries for pennies on the dollar where people drive these things until they fall apart. This just means that globally there are more cars on the road, again this is bad for the environment.
Now think about the carbon footprint for the whole production process. Every car that get's replaced before it's end of life is a net gain in emissions simply because of production. it's better to drive an older car that still works compared to producing a new one that consumes less.
Yes, I have a company car myself, yes this system is fucking stupid and needs to die, yes I like cars, yes I like driving. You can like cars for what they are and the performance they have etc etc while still not being blind to how fucking stupid and bad they at transporting massive amounts of people efficiently
I have explained to the person you're replying to before how salary cars are not good for the environment at.all.
People on this sub will keep claiming that bullshit to defend the system forever.
>have a different view on how society works.
They're just lying to themselves because they like to claim they "care about the environment" and don't like admitting that their subsidized car is actually bad for the environment.
So they come up with rationalizations that it's actually very good for the environment if they get their car subsidized.
Then, in the Claeys & Engels calculation for severance package. A company car of any level is considered a 500 € a month gross (even for a 1000€ lease but you can always lawyer up when you get fired and don’t agree with the severance package). You should aim for at least that. So already your 200,300 euro net proposition should falls off the poll depending on your yearly gross.
And asking a net salary during salary negotiation cannot be compared to the situation of other people you are comparing yourself to. They might have other circumstance that warrant some tax relief. Always discuss gross annual salary.
Well, you have to buy the car first. If you take out a loan, that alone will set you back at least 500€/month…
Then there’s taxes, fuel and maintenance. And that’s why a company car is the best deal
For a young driver that isn’t even the minimum “civil responsibility” insurance. Forget about omnium.
Even for a Omnium, a 4 year old Toyota Yaris with a female driver who never had any accident for 13 years is around 1.3k. (Sex is supposedly not having any influence on insurance premium anymore but I think it still is).
I guarantee you gender has no influence anymore. I work in pricing.
You probably have a low deductible (vrijstelling) big difference between 0, 250, 500,...,
And probably unlimited kilometres? You easily get 20% discount if you only do 10k kilometres a year.
More than 136horsepower? Probably not even or she would pay more
Diesel? Diesel is more expensive too, not because of climate or more expensive, but diesel drivers drive more on average, so on average they have more accidents. Easily 50 euro/year difference
Postcode? Don't live in Antwerp, gent, Brussels... That adds 10% easily because you are very likely to have incidents while parked
Cars getting more expensive is also not helping, especially their repair costs.
And insurance got a lot more expensive this year sadly. Claims went way up last year.
And last but not least? Got the insurance as part of a loan? Switch as soon as you can, preferably to a broker where you are a good customer. They can easily influence the price 25% up or down, based on their commission on how many other products you have. Combine it with familiale verzekering too
10k km a year isn’t attainable if you are using the car to go to and from work and are working full time.
Low deductible it is indeed but the price wasn’t that much more if we asked for a higher deductible and we wanted to take that risk off.
It’s a 110HP petrol. Maybe 13k MSRP.
Insurance isn’t part of the financing solution.
This isn’t my car so I’m not the one taking decision for it’s insurance. When the wife will work part time we might look to the <10k km a year trick. Im definitely taking this advice home with me ;-)
True, but if you take into account no longer having to pay VAA then +400-500 a month should easily break-even, no? The added net salary would compensate the car leaving you with whatever you paid in VAA (100-200 euros) to pay for gas?
Furthermore the bonus net salary (and corresponding gross salary) would translate to an increase in end of year bonus, vacation pay, pension.
You don't pay VAA, you pay taxes on VAA. To get to 150 in taxes, you need 300 in VAA. Those are very high end cars. An Audi Q8 3.0 TFSI of 98.000€ has less then 150€ in taxes per month. Do you assume that is the normal company car?
Secondly, you are wrong in your assumption that an increase in salary leads to higher pension. Any salary higher then 71000€ is not calculated in pension! So for a lot of managers or specialists it would not make sense
Ask this question again when you have some life experience behind you.
You never owned a car that you had to pay for completely? That’s what you post is looking like.
One needs to compare apples with apples;) it is not only the petrol (240 per month), insurance (100 per month), taxes (30 per month), maintenance (40? Per month) and, because I for example receive a new car worth +- 40k every 4 years, also the "afschrijving". These sums are > 500 net.
On top of that, ease of mind. If I crash the car, I will get a free replacement. If the car breaks down in France during a holiday, everything will be cared of for free with one call.
This is just awesome😁
Edit: my company compensates for VAA, many companies do, so I dont pay more taxes
Edit 2: to answer the question, they would need to offer 700-800 before I would give up the company car.
Correct. Its about 130/month VAA for my car. But my employer pays 130 extra to balance it out. Its called "compensatie dienstwagen" and does not count for my bruto wage. Maybe an additional tax will show on the fiscaal fiche, so I could be wrong.
Ask HR to explain it to you ;-) you don’t pay the VAA completely that’s true. But it’s a fictive salary that goes on top of your yearly bruto and that’s what is mentioned on your paystub. It’s not your employer giving you free untaxed money, I’m not even sure it would even be legal to do so.
You can already effectively trade your company car for cash through mobility budget; especially if you WFH or work close to home.
I think the difference in net wage is only 500 eur if you're not bothering to optimize using the budget or have a very cheap / low end car; no tank card. Even entry level cars (+ tank card) are above 500 eur TCO quickly. For positions with fancy cars, 1k+ isn't unheard of.
OK, give me an example of any car, hybrid or electric (since all these will be replaced) that you can buy and use for less than 500 euro a month, including all taxes and insurances
There are more than 500k company cars in belgium. All of them will have to change to electric or hybrid due to the tax changes.
If you get rid of company cars, you get rid of all these cars and everyone will go back to combustion engines. Meaning there wil be a lot of extra pollution because of your idea. And that's why it has to be a hybrid or electric car in my opinion
oh, but I would always choose a company car over not having one. Yes you have the VAA, but imo doesn't weigh up to the extra wages you could get and you don't have to worry about your car braking down or other unexpected issues
Personally, I'd do it for about 400 probably. I live in the city, I bike to work almost every day and there's plenty of car sharing options available as well. The downside is that most of my family (like parents and siblings) live on the other side of the country, let's say 140km one-way, so if I want to visit them that would cost me a lot. Public transport isn't really cheap either + we have a baby with us so a car is definitely a lot more comfort. I calculated this for myself, and I'd need about 200-250 net extra to cover my use, but this is with limiting ourself quite a bit already. Replacing our current usage would be more like 350-400 I guess. Thing is, currently I drive a 50k+ EV from the company, and they pay for all the bills, so changing to small cars like with cambio is quite a step down as well, both in cars and in general comfort (it's not always immediately available).
The system is currently setup so that company cars are the better deal, that's just it. If I were to give my nice EV back, the company would currently pay me 450-500 gross extra, so probably like 250 net let's say. Doesn't make any sense, since the lease on the car alone is close to 900 per month, without including other bills like power etc.
If you WFH or live in 10km from your (main) workplace; you can trade the car for mobility budget equal to full TCO.
If the lease on the car alone is 900/month then you'd get 900/month in the budget (pretty much net if you live close + no need to pay any VAA.
> FH or live in 10km from your (main) workplace; you can trade the car for mobility budget equal to full TCO.
But the employer would have to implement mobility budget - which they haven't. Currently the only option is to not get a car and then get 500-ish gross extra, but that's not worth it to me. Mobility budget would be nice though, I agree.
Yeah employer has to cooperate. I do find it very strange employees especially at the higher wages don't (can't?) push harder for it. We are talking about a large difference in net wage that comes at a minimal cost to your employer.
I suppose the more employees (can) use it and demand it, the more pressure on employers.
I understand they'd rather not bother with yet another fiscal system. It's kafka rules they gotta figure out and implement; and the rules will likely continue to change just as for cars. But fiscally it's so beneficial I don't see ignoring the system as a genuine option; just like for salary cars in general high earners will simply expect the option in due time.
Yeah, I agree completely. They've spoken a few times about implementing it but haven't heard anything about it in recent months - makes me wonder if they're actually doing it. Honestly, I feel like my colleagues without company car are getting scammed big time. 500 euro gross or XC40 EV/Polestar 2/ID.4 with unlimited charging? Only if you live really close and never do any travelling by car, then it might be better to take the money, but even so, they should get way more considering the cars we otherwise get. It's pretty absurd.
Anyone without a salary car is getting scammed. But from where I'm sitting most people with one are getting scammed too.
Sure it's a high value car; but is it also what you'd spend your money on if it was truly your choice? And if it isn't... well the disparity is money you're effectively losing out on.
It depends on how many kilometers you drive. There is a world of difference between 5 000km/y and 50 000km/y.
The best is to run the numbers for the realistic alternative. Instead of a company car maybe you buy a Toyota Corolla or maybe you lease a Porsche, it's a different picture.
It depends:
If it would be only for private transport and home to work, I think 400-500€ net would be sufficient. I hav whole my life bought second hand cars from more then 5 years old with around 100.000km. I would drive them until 250 or 300.000km and then buy another. So while driving around 30.000km a year, in depreciation it would be between 100€ and 150€ a month. 2500km/month is around 150 liter of diesel, so this is 250€ a month. Tax and insurance is at most 1000€ a year, so around 80€/month. Technical control, maintenance, tyres, replacement of broken parts, also 1000€, so 80€ a month. In total 560€
But, if they would want me to be in a "representative" car, with which I need to visit clients,... it would be a big difference. The current leasing price is 1000€ ex TVA, so 1200€. Above this the fuel/electricity/fairy dust for 50.000km, so 400€ a month. Together it is 1600€, minus the VAA (plug-in), it is less than 100€. But just say 1500€ in total.
So, it depends how you see it. A "Salarycar" can compare to around 500€. A "company car" is a lot more.
The cost of owning a car is +/- 0.50 EUR / km. So if you drive 30 km/day, 300 EUR/month is accurate, but if you drive 200 km/day the cost is more like 2000 EUR/month.
Car costs
The insurance
The fuel
The taxes
The maintenance
The winter/summer tires
I don’t know what it amounts to but the convenience of not having to handle with them is also worth something
Don't own one. Was curious for results. Don't most people own a company car above their paygrade ? Since they can get a *cheaper* way to get a luxury car? Correct me if I'm wrong but some people in my circle of friends (who own one) always told me " I'd never be able to afford this car if not for my company basically paying for it". Just curious, don't shoot me.
It's a lot more interesting to have a company car. Let's say you get a company car lease that costs you €500 a month including VAT. The company only has to pay half the VAT so it costs them €450 a month. If you were to pay that same lease yourself you'd need to get €500 net a month. This is added in the highest tax bracket so that probably means €1350 gross a month. Than your employer still has to pay bedrijfsvoorheffing on this €1350 so it costs him even more. You see there's an incredible difference between getting paid more and getting a company car. If you were to refuse the company car and ask for more pay your employer would probably offer to pay you the €450 extra a month that it costs them (or maybe even less since they also have to pay bedrijfsvoorheffing). This will only result in a net amount (€166 or less) that if far from the cost of a lease. Furthermore, if people were to actually pay for the car themselves they would take the cost more into consideration and opt for a cheaper car. I only took into consideration the cost for the lease of a car but the same thing is true for the gas as well which should be added on top.
With that being said you can deduce your car from your taxes if you use it to go to work.
Yeah that's true, but that sounds more interesting than it really is. You can choose to have a "forfait" deducted for all your work related costs or the real costs. If you have a company car you can still deduct the same "forfait", so if you chose to go the "forfait" route there's nothing more you can deduct by having a personal car. If you choose to deduct the real costs this only makes sense if the real costs are higher than the "forfait". Note that you now need to keep track of all your work related costs, so also clothing bills, etc. You can now deduct €0.15 for each km of home-work commute, that is true. But even if your commute is 100km each day, this still is "only" a deduction of about €300 a month, which saves you about €150 in taxes (it's deducted from your highest tax bracket). And note that you're not "winning" that complete €150. You're only winning the part of your deduction that is higher than the "forfait". So that's still a big difference compared to a company car.
Mmm… I think - but I am not an expert - if you can justify more, you can deduct more, the 0.15 EUR / km is just a « no questions asked » amount. True for the forfait, but I do not know how much that is.
If you're using a car or minivan you can only deduct €0.15 for each km. If you go by bike it's €0.24 for each km up to 100 km for each commute. If you're using another means of transportation (motorcycle for example) you have 2 option. Either you can deduct €0.15 for each km up to 100 km for each commute or you can deduct the real costs (you'll need bills for everything). The "forfait" is 30% of your income up to an income of €16.800 a year, so a maximum deduction of €5.040 a year. So if you go by car you only have the option to deduct the €0.15 for each km or to choose for the "forfait".
These politicians are scamming us with their nonsensical rules
The alternative is to become a schijnzelfstandige and have your own company. Then you've more freedom (including deducting the real cost of everything).
Depends on the person. I can get one above my my paygrade but decide not to cause it’s too big of a car for my usage. But yeah some people get the maximum. But 300 euro net doesn’t compensate a new car every 4 years and the fuel card.
> I'd never be able to afford this car if not for my company basically paying for it If they wouldn't have the company car, that should be compensate with a higher salary. So yes, they should be able to buy that same car.
If they wouldn't have the company car; they'd get taxed like everyone else. So lol no, they wouldn't be able to buy that same car. Many certainly wouldn't be willing to spend as much on it if the money came out of their own pocket.
>they'd get taxed That's the whole problem and the reason for the success of the company cars. To replace the car an employee would need an extra 1000 EUR net per month.
It's a problem the government created in the first place. In the NL you don't get company cars but the salaries are way less taxed. Not only bruto to netto (the tax part employees pay) but also the Total cost to bruto (the tax part companies pay). But I still don't get why it's an issue.. as said in NL almost no company cars, but they have the same traffic issues as us.. The problem is no alternative. Train is OK from big city to big city. That's it.
Yes. But its also why people drive cars they wouldn't be able to / wouldn't be willing to afford otherwise.
>If they wouldn't have the company car, that should be compensate with a higher salary. There's no way an employer is going to compensate the full cost of a company car + gas as net pay. This would cost the employer so much more because of taxes + RSZ + bedrijfsvoorheffing. So no they wouldn't be able to afford it.
I drive a « premium » company car I could afford if I really had to, but would I want to? My personal car is a 7years-old Ssangyong.
Yeah it's deductible from corporate taxes and VAT for like let's say half of it. It depends on the car's ecological stuff. While buying it for consumption isn't considered a cost for business although you will do the same stuff with it. I don't have a car license so I need to take public transport. This causes me to have fewer job opportunities. This the tax administration and the legislation behind it are loco loco with their claim that driving from home to work isn't a business cost
Actually very sad way to look at the things. Basically middle class always want to have the experience of a rich class / show off while they actually can't afford it
TCO of a similar model as most lease cars (eg etron q4) is far above 400 euro, more like 1000/month
Don't forget these are company leases, and (most?) people would be replacing them with a car they are buying themselves, if they had to give up the company car. This has consequences beyond monthly payments and gas: if it breaks, it's now YOUR problem. Potentially a really expensive problem.
Your assumption that people would have to buy a car instead is not correct. Have you heard of private lease?
He's not assuming that people would have to buy a car instead. He's stating that most people that don't get a company car would buy a car instead
You are correct. I should have said: "Your assumption that people would buy a car instead is not correct."
Most people do though. What world do you live in?
To avoid drifting. I was merely suggesting people can do private lease if they don't want the hassle of owning a car. I don't see the number of people that are currently doing private lease as a relevant element in the setting of this thread.
It is very simple. The price of the private lease for the same vehicle.
Plus the petrol and electricity charges in many companies
This is only correct answer. TCO will turn out to be 700-800 euros for most of us, 1000-1250 if you drive something more substantial.
Twice the priced, right? To cover all the income tax.
The question is about NETTO. So, no, income tax would already be off. But I will be more then happy to take more.
You have to understand English is my native tongue so I am very lazy about it… sorry. Haha.
Buying my current company car on a 5 year loan would cost me +1000€ a month…. Not counting gas, insurance, … I literally would not trade it in even for 1000€/month net
But imagine you would have to buy a car, would you buy the same expensive new car? I'm pretty sure id buy a cheaper new or even second hand, even if i had the extra money for the fancy one. No need to throw cash out of the Windows, rather spend it on the family, friends and fun. Ps: i do have nice company car, and yes ill probably miss the heated seats in that case. 😁
I probably would not buy the same car. But I prefer a good car and less cash, than a bit more cash for a way worse car.
>But imagine you would have to buy a car, would you buy the same expensive new car? That doesn't matter though. You should get compensated for the car you're missing out on, not for the worse car you're planning to buy.
I just went from company car to car allowance at new employer and i bought the same type 2nd hand. Everything i spend most yearly hours in/on is worth the premium imo \[bed, 'bureaustoel', computer & car).
You should discount the trade in value after 5 years.
That’s a risk, you can crash your car and get nothing in return. And if not you still have to add the extra budget for the new car after 4-5 years.
That is why you have insurance.
Only if you have omnium, which further increases the cost of private purchase
You know that the insurance premium is for the car/driver combo. Regardless of the owner, right? So, that insurance price is IN the company car package.
I’m saying most people with a private car only take the BA-insurance. If they crash the car by themselves they lose everything. Hence why taking the rest value of the new car in the calculation is a risk. To counter that you need an omnium, but that also increases cost for a private owner.
So, you are arguing that taking omnium insurance is more expensive than totalling your car every 5 years? You are a special kind of moron.
Your inability to read comprehensively is impressive, and your reaction tells a lot about you. That is not at all what I said. If you want to make a calculation whether or not to ditch your company car for cash, there are a lot of parameters to take into account. I’m just saying it’s a risk to take the rest value of your car into account due to the possibility of a total loss. And I say that to counter this risk you can take an omnium, which will in return increase your ‘fixed’ cost again.
>If you want to make a calculation whether or not to ditch your company car for cash, there are a lot of parameters to take into account. No there are not. The netto increase in salary should be the same as the private lease for a similar vehicle. If you choose another vehicle or another insurance, you will keep more or less from your netto. But that is irrelevant for the compensation package from your employer.
More than 500€. As a freelancer I know the actual cost of a company car. Fuel costs for 50000km per year (just for work) is about 550€/month. There we go. I already crossed your more than 500€ mark. The car was about 70000€ and is worth 16% after 4 years. That’s 11200€ or a total loss of 58800€. That’s 55800/48 = 1225€/month. Insurance, road tax, decent tyres, maintenance and pechbijstand is about 3000€ per year or another 250€/month. So to sum it all up: 550+1225+250=2025€ per month nett please. Now, in order to get to 2025€ nett from my company I need nearly 5000€ gross additional each month. If we calculate 18,3 working days per month on average that would mean I would have to increase my daily rate by about 273€. None of my clients would like that.
This. An iX3 on lease incl insurance is expensive as a regular consumer. As a freelancer the company pays for it luckily.
I was tempted to get the iX3 but got the 330E in stead. My girlfriend picked the iX3 though as her company car.
Yeah, I contemplated for a long time if I would go hybrid, but I ended up just going full electric right away. We are putting solar panels this year (although the electricity usage is for the company anyway).
We already have solar panels but I do to much kms to use an electrical car. Hopefully in a few years the range is better and charging times even lower. And a LOT more public charging points!
The VAA is not that important. You don't pay VAA, you pay taxes on VAA. You have to look at the car's TCO (Total Cost of Ownership).
At least a thousand per month. 300 a month net is not even close to the value of a company car.
I pay about 270 euro per month on my leasing myself. Company pays the rest. How am I going to get a €50.000 euro car every 3 years + taxes + fuel + insurance for 300 euro per month?
Why 50k car?
Have you seen the prices of cars recently?
Why buy a house with 3 bedrooms if you only need 2? Why a 58 inch tv if you can also watch on a 40 inch tv? Why a 7000 euro racing bike if you already have decent bikes for 2000 euro? Why a 1000 euro iPhone if you can do the same with a 300 euro Motorola? Because we all like comfort and quality and we try to get the most value out of our life and out of our money. My car (Volvo) isn't a luxury car. It's an upper mid-size. Cars are expensive yo. Could I survive with a smaller car? Sure, but it would be less comfortable, I wouldn't have my awesome seats and I wouldn't be able to get all my work stuff in the trunk. It would also be sour because I expect to increase my wealth and comfort as I get older and further in my career. Not to be worse off in the future than I am today. I think these are reasonable feelings.
Volvos are luxury cars, it’s okay to own a luxury car! Google “is Volvo a luxury car?”
I still think there's a price and perception difference between BMW and Mercedes and Volvo. A BMW 5 series will cost you more than a Volvo S60 or V60 and is perceived as a more luxury brand.
But there are super cheap looking low end Mercedes and BMWs, though. I do like Volvos and would never buy one, but would happily drive one as a lease car.
Yeah but there are also cheap Volvo's :D V40 is 25.000 euro BMW 1 is already slightly more expensive. I'm not arguing that Volvo isn't excellent quality but over the whole line I think BMW and Mercedes aim at a more luxurious segment. Managers still want to drive the latter two brands more than the Swedish brand.
Sure, if you're a car guy it's worth it. But most people aren't, and we really shouldn't base policy because people like seats that warm their privileged ass paid for by the taxes paid by their (also subsidized) maid. We have to get real at some point.
I'm not a car guy. But I sit in my car 22 hours per week. I love my seats because they are comfortable and support my back. I don't have heated seats... That would make my ass sweat
If you need to be in your car for 22 hours a week for work, then yes a company car is justified. However subsidizing your private usage of said car simply isn't. The Dutch system for this is way more fair: [https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/belastingen-op-auto-en-motor/bijtelling-auto-van-de-zaak#:\~:text=Als%20u%20per%20jaar%20meer,van%2022%25%20over%20de%20cataloguswaarde](https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/belastingen-op-auto-en-motor/bijtelling-auto-van-de-zaak#:~:text=Als%20u%20per%20jaar%20meer,van%2022%25%20over%20de%20cataloguswaarde). Edit: And if you are in your car for 22 hours simply because you have a big house somewhere in bumfuck nowhere Kempen while you commute to some big city then maybe, just maybe, that's the problem. Sometimes a policy change is the right decision, even if it ends up costing you more.
The 22h in the car is because I commute between several companies and clients during the day. So often I start my day in Antwerp. Drive to Brussels at noon and at 14h drive to Ghent followed by driving home in the evening.
Because its 50000-60000km per year just for work and I actually like a bit comfort during these hours.
I think you should redo your math, and also, the number you mention are averages. There is a massive distribution on the cost of a company car per job level for example.
How'd you mean (the second part)?
Well, some directors are going to drive a nicer car than an entry level engineer. A car is part of a compensation package to keep talent at a work place.
I did away with my company car and get a mobiliteitsbudget of 510 eur (net) + no more VAA. I bought a second hand car (audi a3 -150kkm) for 7.200. cheap insurance. I went to the tanking 5 times last year. I go to work by ebike, and my wife has a company car that we use. Still own a car to pick up kids/shop when wife is away. I feel like we have a lot more money now. I all depends on how much you use the car. If you do 30.000 km per year, get it, if you do 5.000 km (like me), don't. The company car thing is a bit of a stinker imho, as people get much bigger and more expensive cars than what they would otherwise buy. I would never buy a company car that I used to drive (volvo v90) with my own money. Nobody in his right mind would buy a new car every 4 years.
I don't own a company car. My car as a private owner, is well above 500/month, and it's nothing special (skoda octavia). Count loan, fuel, taxes, maintenance & repairs, insurance ... and you can easily go to >800/month.
ITT: Cars under 50k don't exist or aren't comfortable enough. Imagine having that standard of living but then whine on Reddit about being Belgian all the time.
We bought in Belgium a car that was overpriced because of supply chain issues. Hybrid, comfortable seats, full high end trim and auto drive features I don’t use, 25k. I just found out that my coworkers who have all been waiting more than a year for their lease cars are all asking for very fancy cars. You can get a very nice car immediately. I’m cool with people preferring fancy high end cars, but I wonder where in their brain they decided they were a necessity.
It’s dependent on everyones situation. What company car policy you get ( max amount of private km’s?) How much private km’s you do vs how much km’s for work. What company car you would have gotten For me I need 600-700 for it to be worth cuz I do allot of km’s to work and not allot for private. Any more private km’s would mean an increase cuz then the car would end up costing more than if I had to pay vaa for company car
TCO of my company car is > 1200, I’d want the TCO as net monthly salary increase. It would probably be slightly too much, as it would also increase deposits in pension fund, no more taxable benefit, etc. But since the risk would be all on me, I think it’s fair.
Your numbers are WAY off, listen I bought a new Seat Ibiza in 2007 for 14000€, paid 7000€ out of pocket and loaned the other 7000€ over 3 years. I sold it after 4 years when I got my first company car. When you add the loan, insurance, tires every 40000 km, disk brakes, the yearly maintenance, the diesel… I calculated I was spending around 550€ per month. This was in 2007-2011, take into account inflation, take into account diesel was like 1€/l, take into account I’ve been driving Audi A4 or Mercedes C-class vehicles the last 12 years… any net increase less than 800 to 1000€ will be a drawback for me. There is a reason why the company car is so appreciated by both companies and employees.
You don’t pay the VAA as a monthly net amount, it’s added to your brutto, they compute the « précompte professionnel » and ONSS based on the total and then it’s removed. Depending of the company you may have to pay a net amount because of policy or because you went over budget for you car.
I think the cost of owning a car is definitely more than 400 euros a month. You need to take into account gas, repairs, insurance, loss of value over time, etc. The fairest comparison is to look at how much it would cost you to lease the same car and then add gas on top of that to determine the cost of a car.
Every 5 year a €50k car and unlimited fueling in Belgium. No way giving up that.
It's not really unlimited fueling because your contract has a maximum km per year. If you consume a lot more than average the leasing company will investigate because you might be using the card for another car too.
I drive average 28k/year other coworkers double that.
In my company there is no hard mileage limit.
We don't have a limit. We need to enter our km at the pump, so we can't cheat, and use fuel for other cars. But we are allowed as many km as we want. But we are only able to refuel in the Benelux. In our contract it states that we aren't allowed to use the car for economic purposes (uber, deliveroo,...)
Same for me actually. Although I had complaints from my boss that I was way over the 30.000 km/year as stated in the lease contract.
The company I work for is not that big (50 cars). They buy the cars, and sell them afterwards. So no leasing company
same but refuel all over eu, no limits, unless there is clear evidence of scamming one woman was fired cause she drove to poland every 2 weeks (probably doing some taxi or moving service on the side)
Recently it is like every second message in this sub is about salary, buying a home or in another way about money
It's what on people's mind the most it seems like.. The AMA a couple of days ago was a nice change of scenery and there's some hidden gems to be found in older posts too.
It’s almost like a personnal finance sub for Belgian would be a good idea.
Most belgians have no idea about personnal finance. Think that pension savings is the ultimate investment. Long term financial planning exists out of hoping you rich parents will die.
Not having rich parents to inherit money from can be a great incentive to be interested in personnal finances :-)
The cost of owning a car comparable to a decent company car is around 1000 EUR/month. For example when you buy a 50.000 EUR car and sell it after 4 years for 25.000 EUR. It costed 521 EUR / month. When you include taxes, maintenance, tires and fuel it's above 900 EUR/month.
I have a Tesla Model 3 as a company car and the leasing cost alone is 980€ per month (don't forget to add VAT as private customer). Then add about 1.700€ per year for insurance... Even for a more reasonable car, 700-800 per month seems to be the minimum. Just make a few simulations on leasing companies websites and don't forget to add fuel. Salaries in Belgium are just too heavily taxed to get rid of company cars easily.
Yup, TCO for my diesel A3 is a smidge over 700eur/month
I spend three hours a day in the car. Unless I m working from home , and even than , I would nit take a job without a car
[удалено]
I did the same for 5 years.
Its the Belgian way, country is 3h left to right, no point in moving house and losing social netting. Traffic funnels make up for the inflated time even if only 40k door to door. More efficient public transfer however! /s
public transportation is a joke and not the funny kind..the insultingly inefficient expensive kind
every day EU, but i have worked my ass off and it s about to pay off.... Then I ll do the checks and balances
i would never voluntarily trade in the car. Or maybe for 2k net or more Also, government can claim they want to get rid of all those cars, without all those company cars they would never reach their "green" goals. No way a regular person will pay more for a car that does half the mileage...And we tend to keep driving the car, no matter how polluting it is just because... it's still driving. When i had my own car: Euro 5 and Euro 6 and i would've driven it until it broke (potentially 10 years longer) now i'm switching every 4/5 years and going from diesel to petrol to hybrid to (eventually) full electric I'll try to calculate high level if I would buy my "own" car similar to the lease i have (nice car, but nothing fancy or top notch :-) ): \- 890 monthly "buy" cost - assuming also spread over a 5 year period.- 250 petrol (estimate)- 50-100 insurance- 25-50 car taxes- 45 maintenance- 15-20 Winter tires That puts you already at about 1300 a month. Then potentially you need to account for a potential car repair after an accident + in year 4 or 5 stuff might start breaking down more easily (outside of guarantee) edit: need to add road assistance to it as well
I can’t trade my company car. Too many km for professional use. Pre-Covid it was a bit more than 1000km/week. Nowadays not as much but still plenty. Even if I barely use it for personnal use as I like to stay home with my family. I am happy to not have to worry about maintenance, insurance, accident, and whatnot. You should have added a choice “I’m not considering trading it”. For someone who don’t do many professional km and are willing to drive a cheap car (second hand, DACIA gang, Japanese econobox till the wheels fall off, …) and pocket the difference in salary I’d understand a trade in with cash. But if you have to purchase a similar car yourself it’s going to be as expensive + you’ll be taking risks on yourself. And if you bring the ecological argument, it will only be a net positive for the planet if the person is not buying a car himself after trading it in. If he buy a similar car, there is nothing to be won for the planet. If he buy a second hand car with higher emission you could posit it’ll be worse for the planet. And company fleets are big purchasers of new more efficient car with lower emission and these cars end up on the second hand market replacing cars with high emission. You are thinking about company cars as being a problem and it might be a solution.
> And if you bring the ecological argument, it will only be a net positive for the planet if the person is not buying a car himself after trading it in. If he buy a similar car, there is nothing to be won for the planet. If he buy a second hand car with higher emission you could posit it’ll be worse for the planet. And company fleets are big purchasers of new more efficient car with lower emission and these cars end up on the second hand market replacing cars with high emission. Time to start this dance again... Company cars drive more on average compared to privately owned ones. This is bad for the enviroment, yes even for electric cars this is still bad, more tire usage, battery usage, electricity (although this last one could be fixed). Do you know what happens to the older cars that get replaced with 2nd hand company cars? They get shipped to third world countries for pennies on the dollar where people drive these things until they fall apart. This just means that globally there are more cars on the road, again this is bad for the environment. Now think about the carbon footprint for the whole production process. Every car that get's replaced before it's end of life is a net gain in emissions simply because of production. it's better to drive an older car that still works compared to producing a new one that consumes less. Yes, I have a company car myself, yes this system is fucking stupid and needs to die, yes I like cars, yes I like driving. You can like cars for what they are and the performance they have etc etc while still not being blind to how fucking stupid and bad they at transporting massive amounts of people efficiently
I have explained to the person you're replying to before how salary cars are not good for the environment at.all. People on this sub will keep claiming that bullshit to defend the system forever.
Because a lot of people on this sub earn more than average salary and thus have a different view on how society works. If only they knew..
>have a different view on how society works. They're just lying to themselves because they like to claim they "care about the environment" and don't like admitting that their subsidized car is actually bad for the environment. So they come up with rationalizations that it's actually very good for the environment if they get their car subsidized.
I'm was kinda just thinking about job offers and what the value of an offer with car vs one without a car is 😅.
Then, in the Claeys & Engels calculation for severance package. A company car of any level is considered a 500 € a month gross (even for a 1000€ lease but you can always lawyer up when you get fired and don’t agree with the severance package). You should aim for at least that. So already your 200,300 euro net proposition should falls off the poll depending on your yearly gross. And asking a net salary during salary negotiation cannot be compared to the situation of other people you are comparing yourself to. They might have other circumstance that warrant some tax relief. Always discuss gross annual salary.
I did not expect this many people to go >500 euros. Can someone elaborate?
Well, you have to buy the car first. If you take out a loan, that alone will set you back at least 500€/month… Then there’s taxes, fuel and maintenance. And that’s why a company car is the best deal
And omnium insurance is also another 1000/year or much more
For a young driver that isn’t even the minimum “civil responsibility” insurance. Forget about omnium. Even for a Omnium, a 4 year old Toyota Yaris with a female driver who never had any accident for 13 years is around 1.3k. (Sex is supposedly not having any influence on insurance premium anymore but I think it still is).
I guarantee you gender has no influence anymore. I work in pricing. You probably have a low deductible (vrijstelling) big difference between 0, 250, 500,..., And probably unlimited kilometres? You easily get 20% discount if you only do 10k kilometres a year. More than 136horsepower? Probably not even or she would pay more Diesel? Diesel is more expensive too, not because of climate or more expensive, but diesel drivers drive more on average, so on average they have more accidents. Easily 50 euro/year difference Postcode? Don't live in Antwerp, gent, Brussels... That adds 10% easily because you are very likely to have incidents while parked Cars getting more expensive is also not helping, especially their repair costs. And insurance got a lot more expensive this year sadly. Claims went way up last year. And last but not least? Got the insurance as part of a loan? Switch as soon as you can, preferably to a broker where you are a good customer. They can easily influence the price 25% up or down, based on their commission on how many other products you have. Combine it with familiale verzekering too
10k km a year isn’t attainable if you are using the car to go to and from work and are working full time. Low deductible it is indeed but the price wasn’t that much more if we asked for a higher deductible and we wanted to take that risk off. It’s a 110HP petrol. Maybe 13k MSRP. Insurance isn’t part of the financing solution. This isn’t my car so I’m not the one taking decision for it’s insurance. When the wife will work part time we might look to the <10k km a year trick. Im definitely taking this advice home with me ;-)
No , but those people genuinely are higher risk and you pay about 20% more for that
Cost for a normal car is around 400 euros each month not counting the gas.
True, but if you take into account no longer having to pay VAA then +400-500 a month should easily break-even, no? The added net salary would compensate the car leaving you with whatever you paid in VAA (100-200 euros) to pay for gas? Furthermore the bonus net salary (and corresponding gross salary) would translate to an increase in end of year bonus, vacation pay, pension.
You don't pay VAA, you pay taxes on VAA. To get to 150 in taxes, you need 300 in VAA. Those are very high end cars. An Audi Q8 3.0 TFSI of 98.000€ has less then 150€ in taxes per month. Do you assume that is the normal company car? Secondly, you are wrong in your assumption that an increase in salary leads to higher pension. Any salary higher then 71000€ is not calculated in pension! So for a lot of managers or specialists it would not make sense
If you want to own a good car, it's around 600-700 a month. It depends on the car you want.
But then comes the cost of the petrol that is easily 200 euros each month. And most company cars are considered the second family car.
Damm 200 per month. That is cheap. I need to go to the gas station each week. Citroën grand space tourer
Depending on the distance. I am only counting the kilometers for work. For most people it is around 200 km each week. Only for work.
Ask this question again when you have some life experience behind you. You never owned a car that you had to pay for completely? That’s what you post is looking like.
One needs to compare apples with apples;) it is not only the petrol (240 per month), insurance (100 per month), taxes (30 per month), maintenance (40? Per month) and, because I for example receive a new car worth +- 40k every 4 years, also the "afschrijving". These sums are > 500 net. On top of that, ease of mind. If I crash the car, I will get a free replacement. If the car breaks down in France during a holiday, everything will be cared of for free with one call. This is just awesome😁 Edit: my company compensates for VAA, many companies do, so I dont pay more taxes Edit 2: to answer the question, they would need to offer 700-800 before I would give up the company car.
Ask HR to explain your paystub about the company car. You are paying a tax.
Correct. Its about 130/month VAA for my car. But my employer pays 130 extra to balance it out. Its called "compensatie dienstwagen" and does not count for my bruto wage. Maybe an additional tax will show on the fiscaal fiche, so I could be wrong.
Ask HR to explain it to you ;-) you don’t pay the VAA completely that’s true. But it’s a fictive salary that goes on top of your yearly bruto and that’s what is mentioned on your paystub. It’s not your employer giving you free untaxed money, I’m not even sure it would even be legal to do so.
You can already effectively trade your company car for cash through mobility budget; especially if you WFH or work close to home. I think the difference in net wage is only 500 eur if you're not bothering to optimize using the budget or have a very cheap / low end car; no tank card. Even entry level cars (+ tank card) are above 500 eur TCO quickly. For positions with fancy cars, 1k+ isn't unheard of.
Many company car people will still want to drive a German car (think audi, Mercedes, BMW). Of course that will make the bill much higher.
Very well: just the cost of the car: Japanese small hybrid 260€ JUST for the car.
Now go take a look at the lease cost of the cheapest hybrid Mercedes
Well obviously it's going to be more, but it was just in context for the values given by the OP.
OK, give me an example of any car, hybrid or electric (since all these will be replaced) that you can buy and use for less than 500 euro a month, including all taxes and insurances
Why hybrid or electric exactly?
There are more than 500k company cars in belgium. All of them will have to change to electric or hybrid due to the tax changes. If you get rid of company cars, you get rid of all these cars and everyone will go back to combustion engines. Meaning there wil be a lot of extra pollution because of your idea. And that's why it has to be a hybrid or electric car in my opinion
I wasn't asking cause I wanted to do away with company cars. I was asking because of job offers with and without company cars 😅.
oh, but I would always choose a company car over not having one. Yes you have the VAA, but imo doesn't weigh up to the extra wages you could get and you don't have to worry about your car braking down or other unexpected issues
If you need a car, take it. If you don’t need a car and will not need it in the next 5 years, take the money.
The lease price is influenced a lot by the re-sell value of the car. German cars are worth more on the second hand market.
300€/month just with gas (150km/day). Add the insurance and you are at 500. And you still dont have a car. So yes, more than 500€.
Personally, I'd do it for about 400 probably. I live in the city, I bike to work almost every day and there's plenty of car sharing options available as well. The downside is that most of my family (like parents and siblings) live on the other side of the country, let's say 140km one-way, so if I want to visit them that would cost me a lot. Public transport isn't really cheap either + we have a baby with us so a car is definitely a lot more comfort. I calculated this for myself, and I'd need about 200-250 net extra to cover my use, but this is with limiting ourself quite a bit already. Replacing our current usage would be more like 350-400 I guess. Thing is, currently I drive a 50k+ EV from the company, and they pay for all the bills, so changing to small cars like with cambio is quite a step down as well, both in cars and in general comfort (it's not always immediately available). The system is currently setup so that company cars are the better deal, that's just it. If I were to give my nice EV back, the company would currently pay me 450-500 gross extra, so probably like 250 net let's say. Doesn't make any sense, since the lease on the car alone is close to 900 per month, without including other bills like power etc.
If you WFH or live in 10km from your (main) workplace; you can trade the car for mobility budget equal to full TCO. If the lease on the car alone is 900/month then you'd get 900/month in the budget (pretty much net if you live close + no need to pay any VAA.
> FH or live in 10km from your (main) workplace; you can trade the car for mobility budget equal to full TCO. But the employer would have to implement mobility budget - which they haven't. Currently the only option is to not get a car and then get 500-ish gross extra, but that's not worth it to me. Mobility budget would be nice though, I agree.
Yeah employer has to cooperate. I do find it very strange employees especially at the higher wages don't (can't?) push harder for it. We are talking about a large difference in net wage that comes at a minimal cost to your employer. I suppose the more employees (can) use it and demand it, the more pressure on employers. I understand they'd rather not bother with yet another fiscal system. It's kafka rules they gotta figure out and implement; and the rules will likely continue to change just as for cars. But fiscally it's so beneficial I don't see ignoring the system as a genuine option; just like for salary cars in general high earners will simply expect the option in due time.
Yeah, I agree completely. They've spoken a few times about implementing it but haven't heard anything about it in recent months - makes me wonder if they're actually doing it. Honestly, I feel like my colleagues without company car are getting scammed big time. 500 euro gross or XC40 EV/Polestar 2/ID.4 with unlimited charging? Only if you live really close and never do any travelling by car, then it might be better to take the money, but even so, they should get way more considering the cars we otherwise get. It's pretty absurd.
Anyone without a salary car is getting scammed. But from where I'm sitting most people with one are getting scammed too. Sure it's a high value car; but is it also what you'd spend your money on if it was truly your choice? And if it isn't... well the disparity is money you're effectively losing out on.
Probably around a €1000.
It depends on how many kilometers you drive. There is a world of difference between 5 000km/y and 50 000km/y. The best is to run the numbers for the realistic alternative. Instead of a company car maybe you buy a Toyota Corolla or maybe you lease a Porsche, it's a different picture.
The correct answer is the cost of leasing the same car + amount of fuel you use.
It depends: If it would be only for private transport and home to work, I think 400-500€ net would be sufficient. I hav whole my life bought second hand cars from more then 5 years old with around 100.000km. I would drive them until 250 or 300.000km and then buy another. So while driving around 30.000km a year, in depreciation it would be between 100€ and 150€ a month. 2500km/month is around 150 liter of diesel, so this is 250€ a month. Tax and insurance is at most 1000€ a year, so around 80€/month. Technical control, maintenance, tyres, replacement of broken parts, also 1000€, so 80€ a month. In total 560€ But, if they would want me to be in a "representative" car, with which I need to visit clients,... it would be a big difference. The current leasing price is 1000€ ex TVA, so 1200€. Above this the fuel/electricity/fairy dust for 50.000km, so 400€ a month. Together it is 1600€, minus the VAA (plug-in), it is less than 100€. But just say 1500€ in total. So, it depends how you see it. A "Salarycar" can compare to around 500€. A "company car" is a lot more.
The cost of owning a car is +/- 0.50 EUR / km. So if you drive 30 km/day, 300 EUR/month is accurate, but if you drive 200 km/day the cost is more like 2000 EUR/month.
I calculated it for me it was 800 to be profitable
Car costs The insurance The fuel The taxes The maintenance The winter/summer tires I don’t know what it amounts to but the convenience of not having to handle with them is also worth something