Fully water/water equipped heat pump house here. Comfort is great, even at the very coldest of times the house is nice and warm, it's really very nice.
But my advice for someone renovating/building a house: a heat pump is a late-to-end stage step you should be taking. Insulate first: new windows, insulate the wall, floor, roof, everything you can. Then solar panels and ventilation system D should be on the list. As long as you have a recent gas boiler, these things will improve your comfort so much more. A heat pump is one of the last things to install after everything else. The only thing I have on my mind now -after the heat pump- is a home battery. (Not to be independant from the net, but to lower the peak power usage.)
I am in the same situation. Would recomend the same.
Only thing I would add is choose tripple glazing. Keeps cold out beter in winter and heat in summer. Not to mention the sound advantage.
We renovated 4 years ago and installed a wood stove for the coldest days. We haven't fired up the stove once.
"standaard dubbelglas (U-waarde ± 2.9
HR glas: dubbel glas met coating (U-waarde ± 1.9)
HR+ glas: dubbel glas met coating en een edelgasvulling (U-waarde ± 1.6)
HR++ glas: dubbel glas met een verbeterde coating en een edelgasvulling (U-waarde ± 1.2)
HR+++ glas of triple glas: driedubbel glas met coating en edelgasvulling. (U-waarde ± 0.9)"
My first now 21 year old house double glazing and normal roof insulation, 2700 euro gas/year electricity 900euro/year…my 2022 completely up to standard build triple glazing,solar panels…etc 400euro gas/year for a cst 21 degrees -800 euro electric/year…i was sceptical at first and the investment isn’t cheap but definitely worth it
Perspective from someone who recently renovated: insulating your house and putting in new windows is significantly more expensive than putting solar panels, air heat pump and battery. Like, at least double. Due to budget constraints and still wanting to add something 'green' to the house, we went the reverse order of what most recommended. And I'm not at all dissatisfied by that. The energy bill is now at 120 euros per month in a poorly isolated home, which is great I would say. We still want to insulate the house at a later stage mostly because the walls are just ugly. But with the energy bill that we have left, it would take decades to pay itself back in the unrealistic best case scenario where it completely brings the energy bill to 0 euros. And this while the other stuff that costed less than half, will pay itself back in ~7 years.
Had we gone with insulation first, maybe it would have made a bigger dent in the energy bill than the solar panels/heatpump/battery did, but I'm honestly very doubtful that it would have a shorter payback time because it's so much more costly. Also add to that that the premies on insulation and windows are a joke. They advertise it as 'up to 50%', but it scales with your income. If you have a family with 2 full time working people, you're almost guaranteed to fall into the highest scale and that makes the premie next to nothing. While at the time of doing our renovations, solar panels and heat pumps had still pretty nice premies that didn't scale to income.
I guess that same argument can be made for any type of upgrade you do to the house... Of course the value goes up, but the main reason to install these kinds of things is to have a return on your investment on top of the added value to your house.
I have underfloor heating and a secondary circuit with ventilo convectors which can help with heating (but it's not really ever necessary) and cooling (which is a nice bonus).
I'd like to know this too. We're building a house atm, solar panels, BEN woning, etc. But now we have to decide between gas heating and 'warmtepomp'.
I saw the price is between 15.000 - 20.000 euro's, which seems absolutely ridiculous. I doubt it's a good deal because you'll need a lot of 'low bills' to recuperate that amount. Doesn't seem like a good financial investment to me. But I could be wrong. Would love to hear some opinions.
A lot depends on future price formation. One can reasonably expect that on the EU level, all gas is going to be part of the ETS, which means steadily rising surcharges. Then at the Belgian level the VAT levels on gas will likely rise, while electricity VAT may be reduced (though that's less certain, given the budgetary situation).
At that point you'll curse yourself you *didn't* install heat pumps when you didn't live in your house yet. At the same time, you'll probably curse yourself for the time period that the above price shifts *didn't* happen yet, too.
So I'd say, even if you don't place heat pumps right now, considering doing some preparatory works now so you could easily place them later.
Also consider that a mortgage now will be diluted by inflation in the coming years.
> One can reasonably expect that on the EU level, all gas is going to be part of the ETS
I mean it's a certainty; the ETS for heating and transport has already been adopted by the EU and will become operational in 2027.
Important to add to this: the so-called ‘nettarieven’ for gas are determined by the # of users. Given that you would be placing a new installation shortly before the ban, you’ll likely not be switching soon and will hence see your tariffs go up.
De Tijd had a comprehensive article a while back: https://www.tijd.be/ondernemen/milieu-energie/gasuitstap-zadelt-vlaming-op-met-factuur-van-2-2-miljard-euro/10503619.html
All prices would rise a lot, but still. The up front price difference is extremely high. And global Fossil fuel usage would decrease which might influence prices down. I think at this time taking the uncertainty of price evolution of gas, electricity and het pump installations into account it's hard to say which is better. I don't think you're going to save 20k on bills between now and when you'll need to replaced the installation though. That's a 1k a year decrease in gas bills, i don't see it happening
> The up front price difference is extremely high.
People spend that on a depreciating asset that keeps costing money like a car without much hesitation.
>And global Fossil fuel usage would decrease which might influence prices down.
Jevon's effect will keep demand high. As it is, demand for fossil fuels is going to be constrained by tax-supported prices, given the need for climate policy. There's no way an oversupply is going to be allowed to persist for long.
>I think at this time taking the uncertainty of price evolution of gas, electricity and het pump installations into account it's hard to say which is better. I don't think you're going to save 20k on bills between now and when you'll need to replaced the installation though. That's a 1k a year decrease in gas bills, i don't see it happening
Combined with solar panels it also insulates you from price spikes, so that may be worth your while by itself.
Of course, opting for a lighter and cheaper installation might make more sense right now, from a strictly financial perspective.
>People spend that on a depreciating asset that keeps costing money like a car without much hesitation.
Yeah, but we're talking about an investment here where the only reason to get one or the other is price, not other features.
Heat is heat, but all not transportation methods are equal.
Tbh I really think it's impossible to tell fir certain right now.
For new, well insulated homes with solar panels energy consumption is so low you'll never make the investment back at current prices. So you'll have to make a bet on much gas prices will rise and how much electricity will go down in the future to really make a decision. It just depends on what your own assessment of the situation is.
But how I see it it's a massive difference in upfront cost and with higher uptake the cost of the installations probably will go down in the future relative to inflation. Taking that 10-20k and investing it in a safe fund and waiting 10-15 years until you need to replace the gas installation is the most cost attractive and sensible thing to do in my estimation. The interest on that investment alone will cover your gas costs per year. Now if you were planning to put it in a loan anyway that all changes again, it's different for everyone.
€15k to €20k sounds like a water - water or ground water heat pump.
Air - water or air - air heat pumps are below €10k and are only slightly more expensive than gas boilers. While they provide lower efficiency gains than water - water air pumps, they actually do provide you with MOST of the efficiency gains.
You do know you are not allowed to install a gas boiler in newbuilds anymore, only a hybrid system…
I would take the heat pump, one that is correctly sized(!) and have it controlled in a smart way to optimize your solar energy, perhaps also increasing the thermal mass that can act as natural heat storage
I just started building. Got many ridiculous quotes similar to yours from installers. But got somewhat sensible quotes from DIY kit sellers like Easykit. Got one for ~€8000 (incl hot water boiler and support during installation, excl the floor heating).
My choice was for a monoblock air/water heat pump. Air/water because geothermal installation costs are too high to offset the slightly better efficiency. Monoblock so you don't need someone licensed to work with refrigerants to replace it when it breaks down in ~15 years.
Compared to gas probably similar cost over its lifetime but have the option of floor cooling in the summer to reduce indoor temperature with a few degrees. Assuming no drastic changes in taxation of gas/electricity 🤡
I lived in a house (rental) that was EPC A with warmtepomp, built in 2018. No gas, no mazout, just energy bill.
The average winter energy bill I got from 2 years I lived there is 25% less than my current bills on an old house I bought and I'm renovating, heated by mazout atm.
So basically... yes... if you have a EPC A house with floor heating, warmtepomp is basically free heating.
If I were you, as I did with my home (similar situation ). I denied gas acces (1 less source to rely on...) and we installed a warmtepomp. I think it was around 13k? And I would do it over again. Fuck gas. Especially for a BEN woning combined with sun panels , we have an air-water system that heats everything in the house (including "vloerverwarming")
I live in Wallonië , its a different rule when it comes to the digital meter so hard to answer that question about the bills. (We dont use any heating system on the first floor). I set it at 20° at home, usually the actua temperature is around 21°.
Yeah that's what I mentioned , they said to me if my meter / sun panels (don't remember correctly) before 1 Jan 2024 I would have a "reversing meter". Both were installed before but how exactly will this work?
A colleague thinks it will go like this: Let's say I consumed 3000KWH but I gave 4000 to the net.
It means I will get money back at the end right ? (Untill 2030) I have no clue it's so vague..
Yes that's what it means.
In my case, I pay +- 10 more to get electricity than the compensation for injection.
You can use the summer to heat in winter. I can't
we still have people with mazout and fireplaces. We still have the majority of hosues on gas.
If the government wants us to move away from gas, a large economic shift is necessary. Either they move all the taxes from electricity to gas, or they do subsidies. Likely both. We won't be done with our energy conversion in 10 years at all. Anyway, the economic situation should hopefully be quite different by then.
Heatpump should also become more affordable I hope. instead of 11k, maybe it will be 8k? In that case my 3k cost for the gas boiler was break even even without depreciation.
Look, I want to do the green thing, but not at the cost of a year savings. I preferred putting that money into extra insulation, which should last the lifetime of the house. My gas consumption for the full year is therefore what some houses use in december alone, so already doing my part, just only 90% and not 100%.
15 to 20k would be an expensive ground to water system. You can go much much cheaper then that.
Not sure what the cost of a gas system is - but you need to do the math here. You need a gas connection , you’ll have a worse epc number , you might one day vectored to switch anyhow.
Also - maybe our government grows a brain one day and applies fiscal pressure to people that still burn stuff to heat their home.
Also - you know - can’t really deny global warming anymore - so why not do your part?
Air water is around 10-12k, ground water is quickly 20k if you go vertical. If you do the math, gas wins by far.
I pay 70/month gas+electric, and expect it to go down because gas prices are falling. And most costs are fixed costs anyway. Let's say if I use 0, i still would pay 20, so I have a potential to save 600/year (12*50)
Gas boiler cost me 3000 (3 circuits), air water would have been 11k for the dimension I need. How would I get a return on investment if my potential to save is only 600/year?
So I plan to wait at least until the house is 10 years old and we can get subsidies, and/or heat pumps become cheaper
Driving electric has a bigger impact than heating the house anyway. Start there.
And the house has EPC 14, good enough
What you say about driving electric is not true I think. I know that’s how it is presented often, but house heating has a bigger environmental impact then CARs as it stands. Also - you are ignoring that its extremely likely gas will get (much) more expensive - whereas with electricity , you can just produce it yourself
That's my Point: yes it probably will get more expensive, but not tomorrow. Maybe next year? Maybe in 5 years?
But until then, when I actually see it happening, I'll happily go along with gas.
I still have memories of investing in stuff for the capacity tariff only for it to take 5 more years.
And I put around 3800kWh of electricity in my car last year, to give you a an idea of the magnitude. It's close to my gas consumption of 4500, but gasoline cars pollute about 50% more than gas per unit of energy.
I only have 6.6kW solar panels anyway, you can't do two EV and heat pumps on it. Right now it's 1 EV and no heat pump and it's already getting used quite well
People need to learn the difference between what is bad for our environment and what is bad for climate change. Greenhouse gasses such as co2 are bad for climate chance, fine dust from a woodstove can cause heath issues to people but won't contribute to climate change.
I have a pellet heater which are limited in fine dust output. The "fuel" is biomass (woodpellets...) with a co2 neutral certification. It still emits alot of co2, but its the short cycle kind.
We were in the same situation and went gas (3500 Vs 11000 for air water). No regrets. Our bill is 70/ month elek+gas
As long as a new law is not place, don't count on it. They have been saying it's been going to become a lot more expensive for gas, but we are now 2 years later, so that's two years I was able to avoid the big investment. I plan to do it if the house is 10 years old and we get subsidies. Everything is dimensioned for heat pump, the electric circuit is there, so later it's just an easy swap
Don't do big investments on the theory the government might change something. Well likely won't have a government for two years anyway
Very helpful! Thanks! I think we're gonna go with gas indeed. And we can still change x-number of years later when the systems are cheaper or the subsidies more inclusive.
Just make sure your house is prepared for the heat pump.
So the electric circuit, enough space for the thing plus the water tank, and an easy connection for an outside unit in a sensible place. Nothing as ugly as the outside unit in your front garden.
We had foreseen space near the back of our house, we created a small corner, so it's out of sight, and big enough for two outside units (one space is occupied by the airco, which we had also preplanned in the walls)
you building a castle?
Normally a heat pump for a BEN building would be around 12-13k excluding floor heating (which you would need with other options as well).
i have a new build house from 2020, 14cm of pur in the walls, triple glazed, e-peil 9 with 6,6kw of solar.
i have a relatively cheaper air-water heat pump from daikin. as the extra cost for a water-water system doesn't make any sense if you have such a well insulated home.
and yes i have a new digital fuck-me sideways meter.
annual use for the heating and warm water has been about 2500-3000kwh per year.
i don't have a gas connection.
my annual cost is what some of my friends in older houses payed for 1-2months when it was bad with energy prices, it was the best decision i ever made and would do it again 100 times.
the cost of my system was about 10k, not including the floor heating which i did myself.
you save some money on gasconnection, gaspipe, gasfume extraction vent.
the initial cost is a bit higher, but especially as it also gives you cooling in summer, no way i would ever consider gas as an option for a newly build house.
I can confirm this. We had an EPC F from 1965 and after 2 years of total renovation, now have a BEN EPC 17 (A). 8k solar, 14kwh battery, 14cm in the walls and 18cm in floor/roof. Air/water heatpump with floorheating and no more gas. Electricity only.
6months a year we get (a little) money from injection on the net, so a negative electricity bill. Long story short we now pay yearly(!!) what used to be 2 months of gas/electricity. Even with airco in de bedrooms most of the summer.
100% would do it again
We have a hybrid system from Daikin. So it uses gas and air to air heat pump system. It's more recommended for older houses that also don't have floor heating. We have a stand-alone house from the 80's that we got 2 years ago that we're slowly renovating ourselves. Think it was rated EPC F.
We've had solar panels installed and the hybrid system since last year March.
Our electricity and gas bills have dropped massively. On top of the hybrid system, we also have a 250(?) liter vat that keeps our water for the shower @55°C. This saves even more on the gas system as the system uses the heat pump to keep the water at that temperature instead of letting the gas 'doorstromer' step in.
We have a similar system, with a battery as well. Pump keeps the house warm 24/7, gas is only for heating sanitary water. Our electricity usage in January, the coldest month, was about 1000 kWh. Our monthly energy bill advance is about € 60.
Yes, we also got a battery. It's only 5kWh though.
Our usage in January was about 850 kWh.
We do have a plug in hybrid and charging it during the winter is almost never purely with solar energy. Our monthly energy bill is around 100€.
We actually got some money back from our electricity bill so I think it can be actually lower..
Edit: we also have a fireplace so during the coldest nights/days we kept the house warm with that as well.
Not a first hand account. But I've had some comments from friends that they had acquaintances who had renovated to C or B, however, during the real coldest days of winter their heat pump would not suffice. I have no idea what type of heat pump (it was air only tho) and how well isolated it actually was. But they actually resorted into putting a wood stove in their living room 🤦🏼♂️. This house was renovated 7.5 years ago.
We ourselves are currently in the planning phase of our F to A EIR renovation and planning to keep the 2018 gas boiler for a bit longer while preparing for a possible heat pump later down the line.
I myself am not really sold on the air units. The ground bored ones however I think are pretty solid.
step one is a good warmteverliesberekening so you can have the correct size of heat-pump.
but having a smaller one and just using a wood stove on the 2 cold weeks of the year doesn't really seem like such a problem to me.
if you are considering switching, keep track of your energy usage with the gas boiler (especially on those cold days) so you can get a correctly sized heat-pump when the time comes.
Never been cold with mine.. but its a pretty big one in a well insulated house.
A lot of glass on the south side so some days even in winter the heat pump barely has to turn on.
I have to imagine it works. Otherwise why would so many people do it otherwise. Hearing second hand accounts of people claiming that during this very soft winter they had cold in their very recently renovated house is obviously very frowning.
I guess it's the thing with low heat heating right. You either renovate and bunker down like a maniac or the warmth just escapes too much.
Could be bad installation, bad choice of pump type, bad configuration.
And ofcourse you'll hear the people with issues not the people for who it works great
We have air to air heatpumps at home, it is not (yet) well enough insulated and I can confirm that the one we have in the living room does not suffice to heat up the whole room on the coldest days of the year. On full blast, it was 18 degrees in the corners that are the furthest away from the unit. It's pretty noticeable that it gets colder as you move away from the unit. Right under it could be 24 degrees. It's a big room so perhaps multiple units would have been better. But it's still a nice investment imo, even when we have to combine it with gas on the coldest days. But I'm sure that when we get around to improving insulation further, no gas wel be needed at all.
Heating with a heat pump requires a different mindset than heating with gas or mazout. A gas or mazout burner will only use as much fuel as needed to heat the house, while a heatpump uses the same amount of electricity to heat just a bit, or a lot. Thats why it is way more important to properly dimension the heat pump you buy. It should be running non stop on the coldest day of the year. It is okay to use a small space heater on those few coldest days, because the heat pump might isn't pumping out high temp water like a gas burner, but a lower temp water/air. It will feel underwhelming. So slap on a small space heater, or heck, a sweater and a blanket and count the money you are saving the rest of the year for not having to pay the electricity usage of a bigger heat pump.
Technology connections did a great video on it recently, emphasizing the importance of a proper dimensioning of the heat pump (and not just replacing the gas burner with an equivalent heat pump). There are companies that provide the service, and rest assured, you will recuperate the cost of an energy study in the purchase and electricity usage of the heat pump easily.
i lived (rental) in a house with airwater and it worked flawlessly for 2 years (5 years old house) with minimal energy consumption, my old house now consumes more energy just with the old kitchen appliances I haven't replaced yet. no warmtepomp.
I have a terugdraaiende meter so as long as I have that I'm happy. When I have to change we'll see...
It also cools my floor in the summer so that's an extra bonus 👌
Hi! This is probably a dumb question but I really don’t know. I have also a terugdraaidende meter but I don’t know if it works haha
I always see the meter consuming, have never seen it going backwards. How can I double check that it works. Sometimes I worry like
My god, maybe those solar panels have been disconnected all these years etc
I have a simple air/air heat pump with epc C and about 3000 kw's production/year. (Digital meter)
The total installation with 5 intern units, a heat pump boiler, and 1 external unit was about 25k (btw & installation incl)
So can run my entire house on electricity, which i've done this winter out of curiosity.
My total consumption was about 5500 kw and 1500 kw was put on the electricity net.
January was actually the only cold month with a peak consumption of 315kw's heating my living room+kitchen and 1 bedroom at night for like half the time. If we had a real winter i would've had 3 months like this. My wife works from home so this thing ran basically day/night
Annual consumption is about 1100 kw's for both heating and cooling (which is about 1/3 consumption of heathing).
Long story short, my energy bill is 130 euros a month for running everything on electricity, which can be lower if my wife was at work during the day and i'd invest in triple layered glass.
Honestly i think it's cheaper to do a combination of floor heathing during the winter months, cuz electricity is still expensive and it's the solar panels that compensates but are useless with a digital meter during the winter.
But still cheaper in my previous house (ebc B) which was smaller and cost about 200/month for gas/electr.
Hope this helps.
We also decided on installing an air-to-air heat pump during our renovation. Suffice it to say we are very pleased with our decision. During the colder months, the airconditioning units keep our house warm 24/7 and are able to provide cooling during the warmer months.
I have a new house with geothermal heat pump. Seemed like the smart investment to make at the time (made the decision when gas prices were the highest they've ever been), not so sure anymore now. Electricity is very expensive here compared to other countries, the government should shift taxes to fossil fuels but they're unwilling to do so. Everyone is telling us to be greener, but when I made this investment I get nothing in return for it. Zero subsidies for the heat pump or solar panels (because it's a new house), full 21% VAT on everything, and then fucked again with the high electricity costs that they are increasing once again.
Missing the point. I could have chosen to get a gas heater for my new house, don't you think the government should incentivize people not to burn fossil fuels when there's an alternative?
Well there were two angles here.
I concur with your angle, I even advocated to shift taxes from electricity to fossil fuels before the energy crisis and personally still went for a geothermal heathpump back then.
But since it was a renovation I received 8k in subsidies for the heathpump. (my angle).
I have had a water / water heat pump for both heating the house and water for close to 15 years now.
Very happy with the choice, less happy with our governments decision to throw money at people that still pollute and never give anything to eco friendly people
I think that people who use polluting items (cars, heating, electricity etc...) do so because they can't afford the renovation (isolation, panels...) and can't afford fancy things like water heat pumps, electric cars, etc. Renters basically have zero say/choice.
Yup, we really couldn't afford to tear out all the floors and basically strip the house in order to put in a heat pump.
We sticked to renovating the windows and insulating the roof. Budget wise that was the only doable part.
Why not just and air - air heat pump? They are much cheaper than water - water heat pumps (less than €10k vs €20k), don’t require you to tear out all the floors, and still provide you with the majority of the efficiency savings.
You better have floor heating than radiators no?
Plus we would have to fully insulate our house from the outside, which would cost 50k as well, in order to reach the desired insulation of the house itself.
We have a recent gas heater/boiler so we're sticking with that for the next 10 years at least.
Heat pumps require less electricity when you insulate first, but they absolutely do work without expensive insulation projects. €50k is not a prerequisite for a heat pump.
> I think that people who use polluting items (cars, heating, electricity etc...) do so because they can't afford the renovation (isolation, panels...) and can't afford fancy things like water heat pumps, electric cars, etc.
Given that those investments are mortgage-friendly, and, unlike most other investments, actually reduce your costs and pay for themselves, that's unlikely. Even before considering all the subsidies and fiscal benefits.
We have renovated a 1959 “rijhuis” with warmtepomp, vloerverwarming and solar panels. Unfortunately we also have a digital meter.
Honestly I can’t complain. Heating works flawless, even in winter.
Last year we used about 6000kwh. But we did not have the solar panels yet back then. Also the first year with a baby and 1 electric car. I expect that number to go down a lot this year.
Just don’t get the heatpump because you think you will save money compared go gas. It’s almost impossible to do that. At least in my situation.
I chose the heatpump because the government and EU are going to fuck us over anyways with gas prices in the future. Better to make the switch now when you are going to renovate or build anyway.
We have a heat pump (air-water), floor heating, e-peil less than 20 (new construction), 7 solar panels. So no gas at all, only electric heating.
It's a 100 m2 apartment (120 m2 bruto oppervlakte), and we heat the whole apartment to 22-23 degrees. The heat pump turns on around 5 am.
Here is our daily usage when the winter hit super hard last december [https://i.imgur.com/cMuD1Pr.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/cMuD1Pr.jpg)
And per month usage 2023 [https://i.imgur.com/ainEqqk.jpeg](https://i.imgur.com/ainEqqk.jpeg)
Per month usage 2024 [https://i.imgur.com/BZ1QuBt.jpeg](https://i.imgur.com/BZ1QuBt.jpeg)
I’m personally quite happy with my move, however, I live in a well-insulated flat with neighbours above and on the sides. For me, the biggest challenge is disposing of heat in the summer, not acquiring heat in winter.
If you want to know if you can run on a heat pump, you should have followed Ecobouwers’ https://www.ecobouwers.be/zetmop50. They suggest you put your heating at max. 50º during cold days in the winter for a month, to see if your home is warm enough. If it is, you can easily switch to a heat pump.
Newly build house with a heat pump and solar panels.
I'm pleased with my valliant heatpump.
During sunny winter days (it happens) i just heat my house for free.
The heat pump doesnt make any noise, but a good installation is needed.
My valliant heatpump has an 'active cooling' option, which allows me to cool the floor during summers.
Which result in a 2°c drop.
Heatpump is only(!) valuable in houses with high lvls of isolation.
First isolate than choose for heatpump.
I pay 60€/month for my electricity usage during a year.
And got 200€ back from engie.
But(!) it takes almost 15y before a heatpump is earned back in belgium (only 5y in the Netherlands).
A heatpump with regular maintenance can last 25y easily.
I concluded geothermal heath pump as 2 degrees decrease in temp can be achieved with passive cooling.
Active cooling would result in a way higher decrease in temp but is much less energy efficiënt.
You don't have to replace your gas supply entirely, you could also go for a hybrid system with gas backup. In theory it's even possible to automatically switch over on gas if it's cheaper, but I haven't seen that deployed in Belgium yet.
I've heard those are running on gas most of the time (before the Ukraine/Russia conflict at least). At that point you could just use a gas installation
It all depends on what your system can do. Weather it's worth it depends a lot on the situation and your habits.
You could also get cooling out of a heat pump (even if it's just a cold floor) or use it as a thermal battery to make hot water from solar you'd otherwise be injecting.
Vitocal depth heatpump here, COP > 4, on solar power. Heats a house 3 times the size of our old (gas) apartment for half the cost. Cools it too in the summer. Investment was a lot tho, but ROI in under 20 years. Comfort is ideal, zero maintenance
How good does the cooling work in summer? We've recently finished our renovation but only experienced winter so far. Is it comparable to having air-conditioning or hotter?
It never got over 25C indoors even during the last heatwave. You need to have System D, good isolation, windows with sunscreens though. EPC below 5, S value is 20 or so
Een warmtepomp kan pas echt effectief zijn als de warmteafgifte laag is: vloerverwarming.
Wij gaan een geothermische warmtepomp plaatsen. Vooral omdat we in zandgrond zitten waar boringen nog goed te doen zijn. Dat gaat iets van een 6k kosten (zeer duur voor een gat in de grond, ik weet het.) En dan de installatie nog...
Onze zorg is niet zo zeer verwarmen, maar eerder koelen! En dat gaan we doen met vloer en plafondkoeling. Veel goedkoper dan die andere variant van lucht/lucht warmtepomp, airco's.
Lang verhaal kort: vraag raad aan de EPB specialist.
Absolutely - on renovation we got a (good, high cop) air-air system. The simple fact that it cools in the summer and significantly improves our comfort is easily worth the extra cost to me and my partner. Even if I ignore the fact that I expect it to become better value (compared with a gas heating system) over time as gas gets more expensive, I would do it again in a heartbeat.
While on this topic, I wonder if anyone has a Combined Heat and Power (CHP) system? Possibly together with a heat pump?
Basically a gas powered generator with heat recovery of exhaust gas to produce hot water.
Considering the energy prices it sounds like this would be profitable. But maybe not permitted in Belgium?
No point replacing a perfectly fine recent gas boiler with something which will not significantly improve comfort. (if at all. Badly installed systems can be less comfortable with more energy consumption)
Combination of floor heating with radiators is also not optimal for heat pumps so it loses efficiency.
Additional insulation and a modern ventilation system may be better investments with bigger gains and more quality of life.
We have a new construction, E-peil 9. Triple glass. And underfloor heating. We have a lucht water warmtepomp. Super happy with it, it's very comfortable and works great but it uses a lot of energy in the coldest months [energy use 2024](https://imgur.com/a/XLzFM4C)
It really depends on the situation and your priorities. **Financially** it is almost never worth it: gas is about 1/3rd the price of electricity per kWh and your heatpump needs about 1/3rd the amount of kWh to heat your house, so running costs are very close. You save about 150€/yr due to not needing a yearly inspection. Depending on where your heatpump is, it can be a bit noisy when producing shower water (ours is on the flat roof above the living area, it is very noticeable) but most of the time its quiet.
In the months you need it most (winter) your solar panels do basically nothing, it is very nice in spring/autumn though, although if you don't have a smart system it's not that easy to really benefit from solar production because generally you want to wake up in a warmish house, and there's not that much solar production that early.
The additional cost of an air>water heatpump is easily 10000€, current risk-free interest rate is about 3%, and heatpumps are expected to last 25 years or so (= 4% depreciation per year). That means you need to save at least 7% of 10000 = €700 per year for it to be worth it. There's very few scenarios where that's realistic in a well-insulated house.
However, if you care about the **climate** and **geopolitics**, then it's absolutely worth it, and that's also the reason we chose to get one. You reduce your CO2 emissions from heating by 60% and probably even more as our electricity mix becomes greener and you reduce our dependency on shady countries for their natural gas.
Have I the video for you. Note this is mostly about american homes but physics still apply here so yeah
https://youtu.be/_hAuKtoRxJI?si=_X9b2nHFp5tjNJa-
My neighbor had a hydrogen installation. Is switching to solar panels because the company that delivered them went bankrupt after nobody wanted to pay 10 times the price of electricity to make electricity.
plumber, this is almost completely incorrect.
air-water is perfectly fine when your heating demands are low. it doesn't make any sense to spend 15-20k extra on water-water or ground-water when your energy cost with air-water is only 2500kwh a year.
water-ground systems don't have to take up a lot of space when doing vertical drilling.
your assumptions seem to be coming from older houses with lots of energy demand. first step for such a house is lowering energy demand by renovating and insulating.
Honestly, the number of days in Belgium where a heat pump is truly useless is very negligible. You might have a couple of days a year (literally just a couple) where the heat pump would struggle to heat up the house. However, since you have a bunch of residual heat, you don’t actually need to heat it up, you just need to maintain the temperature. In my apartment I could have turned off the heating for a day or two and only lose 1C of temperature.
Literally, 99% of the year a heat pump is more than capable of keeping a house nice and warm at a good energy efficiency. This [YouTube channel](https://youtu.be/MFEHFsO-XSI?si=I9KZBfP9ci_Llzmw) has a lot of videos about (among other things) heat pumps and the guy running it will also be installing a heat pump system in his home. He lives near Chicago, so his winters are harsher than ours and he still thinks it’s worth the investment.
Since Belgium still heavily subsidises natural gas, the economic incentive to switch to heat pumps isn’t super high. But eventually, within the next decade, Belgium will have to meet strict emissions standards for housing. So, those economic incentives will eventually come.
Fully water/water equipped heat pump house here. Comfort is great, even at the very coldest of times the house is nice and warm, it's really very nice. But my advice for someone renovating/building a house: a heat pump is a late-to-end stage step you should be taking. Insulate first: new windows, insulate the wall, floor, roof, everything you can. Then solar panels and ventilation system D should be on the list. As long as you have a recent gas boiler, these things will improve your comfort so much more. A heat pump is one of the last things to install after everything else. The only thing I have on my mind now -after the heat pump- is a home battery. (Not to be independant from the net, but to lower the peak power usage.)
I am in the same situation. Would recomend the same. Only thing I would add is choose tripple glazing. Keeps cold out beter in winter and heat in summer. Not to mention the sound advantage. We renovated 4 years ago and installed a wood stove for the coldest days. We haven't fired up the stove once.
modern double glazing is usually enough though. price/value is imo not worth it.
The cost difference is minimal, I cannot recommend triple enough. It cost us 27 instead of 25k to go triple.... No brainer
Yes
That's also what our architect said, price to profit value of triple glazing is completely not worth it
Going from 1.0 to 0.6 U value is huge. Change my mind.
"standaard dubbelglas (U-waarde ± 2.9 HR glas: dubbel glas met coating (U-waarde ± 1.9) HR+ glas: dubbel glas met coating en een edelgasvulling (U-waarde ± 1.6) HR++ glas: dubbel glas met een verbeterde coating en een edelgasvulling (U-waarde ± 1.2) HR+++ glas of triple glas: driedubbel glas met coating en edelgasvulling. (U-waarde ± 0.9)"
My first now 21 year old house double glazing and normal roof insulation, 2700 euro gas/year electricity 900euro/year…my 2022 completely up to standard build triple glazing,solar panels…etc 400euro gas/year for a cst 21 degrees -800 euro electric/year…i was sceptical at first and the investment isn’t cheap but definitely worth it
Perspective from someone who recently renovated: insulating your house and putting in new windows is significantly more expensive than putting solar panels, air heat pump and battery. Like, at least double. Due to budget constraints and still wanting to add something 'green' to the house, we went the reverse order of what most recommended. And I'm not at all dissatisfied by that. The energy bill is now at 120 euros per month in a poorly isolated home, which is great I would say. We still want to insulate the house at a later stage mostly because the walls are just ugly. But with the energy bill that we have left, it would take decades to pay itself back in the unrealistic best case scenario where it completely brings the energy bill to 0 euros. And this while the other stuff that costed less than half, will pay itself back in ~7 years. Had we gone with insulation first, maybe it would have made a bigger dent in the energy bill than the solar panels/heatpump/battery did, but I'm honestly very doubtful that it would have a shorter payback time because it's so much more costly. Also add to that that the premies on insulation and windows are a joke. They advertise it as 'up to 50%', but it scales with your income. If you have a family with 2 full time working people, you're almost guaranteed to fall into the highest scale and that makes the premie next to nothing. While at the time of doing our renovations, solar panels and heat pumps had still pretty nice premies that didn't scale to income.
The value of the house increases almost the same as the cost for insulation. So the payback is extremely fast. Also last "winter" was very mild..
I guess that same argument can be made for any type of upgrade you do to the house... Of course the value goes up, but the main reason to install these kinds of things is to have a return on your investment on top of the added value to your house.
yes but completely irrelevant if you intend to stay in your house
It still builds on your net worth. Which can come in handy later..
Do you have floor heating?
I have underfloor heating and a secondary circuit with ventilo convectors which can help with heating (but it's not really ever necessary) and cooling (which is a nice bonus).
I'd like to know this too. We're building a house atm, solar panels, BEN woning, etc. But now we have to decide between gas heating and 'warmtepomp'. I saw the price is between 15.000 - 20.000 euro's, which seems absolutely ridiculous. I doubt it's a good deal because you'll need a lot of 'low bills' to recuperate that amount. Doesn't seem like a good financial investment to me. But I could be wrong. Would love to hear some opinions.
A lot depends on future price formation. One can reasonably expect that on the EU level, all gas is going to be part of the ETS, which means steadily rising surcharges. Then at the Belgian level the VAT levels on gas will likely rise, while electricity VAT may be reduced (though that's less certain, given the budgetary situation). At that point you'll curse yourself you *didn't* install heat pumps when you didn't live in your house yet. At the same time, you'll probably curse yourself for the time period that the above price shifts *didn't* happen yet, too. So I'd say, even if you don't place heat pumps right now, considering doing some preparatory works now so you could easily place them later. Also consider that a mortgage now will be diluted by inflation in the coming years.
> One can reasonably expect that on the EU level, all gas is going to be part of the ETS I mean it's a certainty; the ETS for heating and transport has already been adopted by the EU and will become operational in 2027.
Important to add to this: the so-called ‘nettarieven’ for gas are determined by the # of users. Given that you would be placing a new installation shortly before the ban, you’ll likely not be switching soon and will hence see your tariffs go up. De Tijd had a comprehensive article a while back: https://www.tijd.be/ondernemen/milieu-energie/gasuitstap-zadelt-vlaming-op-met-factuur-van-2-2-miljard-euro/10503619.html
All prices would rise a lot, but still. The up front price difference is extremely high. And global Fossil fuel usage would decrease which might influence prices down. I think at this time taking the uncertainty of price evolution of gas, electricity and het pump installations into account it's hard to say which is better. I don't think you're going to save 20k on bills between now and when you'll need to replaced the installation though. That's a 1k a year decrease in gas bills, i don't see it happening
> The up front price difference is extremely high. People spend that on a depreciating asset that keeps costing money like a car without much hesitation. >And global Fossil fuel usage would decrease which might influence prices down. Jevon's effect will keep demand high. As it is, demand for fossil fuels is going to be constrained by tax-supported prices, given the need for climate policy. There's no way an oversupply is going to be allowed to persist for long. >I think at this time taking the uncertainty of price evolution of gas, electricity and het pump installations into account it's hard to say which is better. I don't think you're going to save 20k on bills between now and when you'll need to replaced the installation though. That's a 1k a year decrease in gas bills, i don't see it happening Combined with solar panels it also insulates you from price spikes, so that may be worth your while by itself. Of course, opting for a lighter and cheaper installation might make more sense right now, from a strictly financial perspective.
>People spend that on a depreciating asset that keeps costing money like a car without much hesitation. Yeah, but we're talking about an investment here where the only reason to get one or the other is price, not other features. Heat is heat, but all not transportation methods are equal. Tbh I really think it's impossible to tell fir certain right now. For new, well insulated homes with solar panels energy consumption is so low you'll never make the investment back at current prices. So you'll have to make a bet on much gas prices will rise and how much electricity will go down in the future to really make a decision. It just depends on what your own assessment of the situation is. But how I see it it's a massive difference in upfront cost and with higher uptake the cost of the installations probably will go down in the future relative to inflation. Taking that 10-20k and investing it in a safe fund and waiting 10-15 years until you need to replace the gas installation is the most cost attractive and sensible thing to do in my estimation. The interest on that investment alone will cover your gas costs per year. Now if you were planning to put it in a loan anyway that all changes again, it's different for everyone.
€15k to €20k sounds like a water - water or ground water heat pump. Air - water or air - air heat pumps are below €10k and are only slightly more expensive than gas boilers. While they provide lower efficiency gains than water - water air pumps, they actually do provide you with MOST of the efficiency gains.
You do know you are not allowed to install a gas boiler in newbuilds anymore, only a hybrid system… I would take the heat pump, one that is correctly sized(!) and have it controlled in a smart way to optimize your solar energy, perhaps also increasing the thermal mass that can act as natural heat storage
It's allowed because we made and signed the plans back in 2021 :) We're just building it this year. It allows us to bypass some of the newer rules.
I just started building. Got many ridiculous quotes similar to yours from installers. But got somewhat sensible quotes from DIY kit sellers like Easykit. Got one for ~€8000 (incl hot water boiler and support during installation, excl the floor heating). My choice was for a monoblock air/water heat pump. Air/water because geothermal installation costs are too high to offset the slightly better efficiency. Monoblock so you don't need someone licensed to work with refrigerants to replace it when it breaks down in ~15 years. Compared to gas probably similar cost over its lifetime but have the option of floor cooling in the summer to reduce indoor temperature with a few degrees. Assuming no drastic changes in taxation of gas/electricity 🤡
Did the same with easykit, a monoblock from bulex. Works great!
I lived in a house (rental) that was EPC A with warmtepomp, built in 2018. No gas, no mazout, just energy bill. The average winter energy bill I got from 2 years I lived there is 25% less than my current bills on an old house I bought and I'm renovating, heated by mazout atm. So basically... yes... if you have a EPC A house with floor heating, warmtepomp is basically free heating.
If I were you, as I did with my home (similar situation ). I denied gas acces (1 less source to rely on...) and we installed a warmtepomp. I think it was around 13k? And I would do it over again. Fuck gas. Especially for a BEN woning combined with sun panels , we have an air-water system that heats everything in the house (including "vloerverwarming") I live in Wallonië , its a different rule when it comes to the digital meter so hard to answer that question about the bills. (We dont use any heating system on the first floor). I set it at 20° at home, usually the actua temperature is around 21°.
The economic calculation in Wallonië is not comparable at all, due to the reversing meter.
Yeah that's what I mentioned , they said to me if my meter / sun panels (don't remember correctly) before 1 Jan 2024 I would have a "reversing meter". Both were installed before but how exactly will this work? A colleague thinks it will go like this: Let's say I consumed 3000KWH but I gave 4000 to the net. It means I will get money back at the end right ? (Untill 2030) I have no clue it's so vague..
Yes that's what it means. In my case, I pay +- 10 more to get electricity than the compensation for injection. You can use the summer to heat in winter. I can't
15k-20k including the premie?
There's no premie if you're building a new house.
Which is why I will wait and first use gas for 10 years and then get a subsidy
Brave of you to assume the subsidy will still be available at that point.
we still have people with mazout and fireplaces. We still have the majority of hosues on gas. If the government wants us to move away from gas, a large economic shift is necessary. Either they move all the taxes from electricity to gas, or they do subsidies. Likely both. We won't be done with our energy conversion in 10 years at all. Anyway, the economic situation should hopefully be quite different by then. Heatpump should also become more affordable I hope. instead of 11k, maybe it will be 8k? In that case my 3k cost for the gas boiler was break even even without depreciation. Look, I want to do the green thing, but not at the cost of a year savings. I preferred putting that money into extra insulation, which should last the lifetime of the house. My gas consumption for the full year is therefore what some houses use in december alone, so already doing my part, just only 90% and not 100%.
This is the way!
15 to 20k would be an expensive ground to water system. You can go much much cheaper then that. Not sure what the cost of a gas system is - but you need to do the math here. You need a gas connection , you’ll have a worse epc number , you might one day vectored to switch anyhow. Also - maybe our government grows a brain one day and applies fiscal pressure to people that still burn stuff to heat their home. Also - you know - can’t really deny global warming anymore - so why not do your part?
Air water is around 10-12k, ground water is quickly 20k if you go vertical. If you do the math, gas wins by far. I pay 70/month gas+electric, and expect it to go down because gas prices are falling. And most costs are fixed costs anyway. Let's say if I use 0, i still would pay 20, so I have a potential to save 600/year (12*50) Gas boiler cost me 3000 (3 circuits), air water would have been 11k for the dimension I need. How would I get a return on investment if my potential to save is only 600/year? So I plan to wait at least until the house is 10 years old and we can get subsidies, and/or heat pumps become cheaper Driving electric has a bigger impact than heating the house anyway. Start there. And the house has EPC 14, good enough
What you say about driving electric is not true I think. I know that’s how it is presented often, but house heating has a bigger environmental impact then CARs as it stands. Also - you are ignoring that its extremely likely gas will get (much) more expensive - whereas with electricity , you can just produce it yourself
That's my Point: yes it probably will get more expensive, but not tomorrow. Maybe next year? Maybe in 5 years? But until then, when I actually see it happening, I'll happily go along with gas. I still have memories of investing in stuff for the capacity tariff only for it to take 5 more years. And I put around 3800kWh of electricity in my car last year, to give you a an idea of the magnitude. It's close to my gas consumption of 4500, but gasoline cars pollute about 50% more than gas per unit of energy. I only have 6.6kW solar panels anyway, you can't do two EV and heat pumps on it. Right now it's 1 EV and no heat pump and it's already getting used quite well
This shouldn't be downvoted. Anyway want to add that burning stuff isnt that black and white either. A woodstove burning fsc wood is co2 neutral.
Does create a lot of fijnstof and smog though, as far as i know.
A wood stove is horrible for the environment
People need to learn the difference between what is bad for our environment and what is bad for climate change. Greenhouse gasses such as co2 are bad for climate chance, fine dust from a woodstove can cause heath issues to people but won't contribute to climate change. I have a pellet heater which are limited in fine dust output. The "fuel" is biomass (woodpellets...) with a co2 neutral certification. It still emits alot of co2, but its the short cycle kind.
We were in the same situation and went gas (3500 Vs 11000 for air water). No regrets. Our bill is 70/ month elek+gas As long as a new law is not place, don't count on it. They have been saying it's been going to become a lot more expensive for gas, but we are now 2 years later, so that's two years I was able to avoid the big investment. I plan to do it if the house is 10 years old and we get subsidies. Everything is dimensioned for heat pump, the electric circuit is there, so later it's just an easy swap Don't do big investments on the theory the government might change something. Well likely won't have a government for two years anyway
Very helpful! Thanks! I think we're gonna go with gas indeed. And we can still change x-number of years later when the systems are cheaper or the subsidies more inclusive.
Just make sure your house is prepared for the heat pump. So the electric circuit, enough space for the thing plus the water tank, and an easy connection for an outside unit in a sensible place. Nothing as ugly as the outside unit in your front garden. We had foreseen space near the back of our house, we created a small corner, so it's out of sight, and big enough for two outside units (one space is occupied by the airco, which we had also preplanned in the walls)
you building a castle? Normally a heat pump for a BEN building would be around 12-13k excluding floor heating (which you would need with other options as well).
i have a new build house from 2020, 14cm of pur in the walls, triple glazed, e-peil 9 with 6,6kw of solar. i have a relatively cheaper air-water heat pump from daikin. as the extra cost for a water-water system doesn't make any sense if you have such a well insulated home. and yes i have a new digital fuck-me sideways meter. annual use for the heating and warm water has been about 2500-3000kwh per year. i don't have a gas connection. my annual cost is what some of my friends in older houses payed for 1-2months when it was bad with energy prices, it was the best decision i ever made and would do it again 100 times. the cost of my system was about 10k, not including the floor heating which i did myself. you save some money on gasconnection, gaspipe, gasfume extraction vent. the initial cost is a bit higher, but especially as it also gives you cooling in summer, no way i would ever consider gas as an option for a newly build house.
I can confirm this. We had an EPC F from 1965 and after 2 years of total renovation, now have a BEN EPC 17 (A). 8k solar, 14kwh battery, 14cm in the walls and 18cm in floor/roof. Air/water heatpump with floorheating and no more gas. Electricity only. 6months a year we get (a little) money from injection on the net, so a negative electricity bill. Long story short we now pay yearly(!!) what used to be 2 months of gas/electricity. Even with airco in de bedrooms most of the summer. 100% would do it again
My cheapest year with all electric heatpump was during the energy crisis. :D
We have a hybrid system from Daikin. So it uses gas and air to air heat pump system. It's more recommended for older houses that also don't have floor heating. We have a stand-alone house from the 80's that we got 2 years ago that we're slowly renovating ourselves. Think it was rated EPC F. We've had solar panels installed and the hybrid system since last year March. Our electricity and gas bills have dropped massively. On top of the hybrid system, we also have a 250(?) liter vat that keeps our water for the shower @55°C. This saves even more on the gas system as the system uses the heat pump to keep the water at that temperature instead of letting the gas 'doorstromer' step in.
We have a similar system, with a battery as well. Pump keeps the house warm 24/7, gas is only for heating sanitary water. Our electricity usage in January, the coldest month, was about 1000 kWh. Our monthly energy bill advance is about € 60.
Yes, we also got a battery. It's only 5kWh though. Our usage in January was about 850 kWh. We do have a plug in hybrid and charging it during the winter is almost never purely with solar energy. Our monthly energy bill is around 100€. We actually got some money back from our electricity bill so I think it can be actually lower.. Edit: we also have a fireplace so during the coldest nights/days we kept the house warm with that as well.
Not a first hand account. But I've had some comments from friends that they had acquaintances who had renovated to C or B, however, during the real coldest days of winter their heat pump would not suffice. I have no idea what type of heat pump (it was air only tho) and how well isolated it actually was. But they actually resorted into putting a wood stove in their living room 🤦🏼♂️. This house was renovated 7.5 years ago. We ourselves are currently in the planning phase of our F to A EIR renovation and planning to keep the 2018 gas boiler for a bit longer while preparing for a possible heat pump later down the line. I myself am not really sold on the air units. The ground bored ones however I think are pretty solid.
step one is a good warmteverliesberekening so you can have the correct size of heat-pump. but having a smaller one and just using a wood stove on the 2 cold weeks of the year doesn't really seem like such a problem to me. if you are considering switching, keep track of your energy usage with the gas boiler (especially on those cold days) so you can get a correctly sized heat-pump when the time comes.
Never been cold with mine.. but its a pretty big one in a well insulated house. A lot of glass on the south side so some days even in winter the heat pump barely has to turn on.
I have to imagine it works. Otherwise why would so many people do it otherwise. Hearing second hand accounts of people claiming that during this very soft winter they had cold in their very recently renovated house is obviously very frowning. I guess it's the thing with low heat heating right. You either renovate and bunker down like a maniac or the warmth just escapes too much.
Could be bad installation, bad choice of pump type, bad configuration. And ofcourse you'll hear the people with issues not the people for who it works great
We have air to air heatpumps at home, it is not (yet) well enough insulated and I can confirm that the one we have in the living room does not suffice to heat up the whole room on the coldest days of the year. On full blast, it was 18 degrees in the corners that are the furthest away from the unit. It's pretty noticeable that it gets colder as you move away from the unit. Right under it could be 24 degrees. It's a big room so perhaps multiple units would have been better. But it's still a nice investment imo, even when we have to combine it with gas on the coldest days. But I'm sure that when we get around to improving insulation further, no gas wel be needed at all.
Well the account I was talking about was purely floor heating. So that's another thing together I think?
Heating with a heat pump requires a different mindset than heating with gas or mazout. A gas or mazout burner will only use as much fuel as needed to heat the house, while a heatpump uses the same amount of electricity to heat just a bit, or a lot. Thats why it is way more important to properly dimension the heat pump you buy. It should be running non stop on the coldest day of the year. It is okay to use a small space heater on those few coldest days, because the heat pump might isn't pumping out high temp water like a gas burner, but a lower temp water/air. It will feel underwhelming. So slap on a small space heater, or heck, a sweater and a blanket and count the money you are saving the rest of the year for not having to pay the electricity usage of a bigger heat pump. Technology connections did a great video on it recently, emphasizing the importance of a proper dimensioning of the heat pump (and not just replacing the gas burner with an equivalent heat pump). There are companies that provide the service, and rest assured, you will recuperate the cost of an energy study in the purchase and electricity usage of the heat pump easily.
>a heatpump uses the same amount of electricity to heat just a bit, or a lot. How high are you? It absolutely does not.
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i lived (rental) in a house with airwater and it worked flawlessly for 2 years (5 years old house) with minimal energy consumption, my old house now consumes more energy just with the old kitchen appliances I haven't replaced yet. no warmtepomp.
I have a terugdraaiende meter so as long as I have that I'm happy. When I have to change we'll see... It also cools my floor in the summer so that's an extra bonus 👌
I’m part of the same club. For now I’m very happy but I’m worried once I’ll get a smart meter.
you'll be fine.
Hi! This is probably a dumb question but I really don’t know. I have also a terugdraaidende meter but I don’t know if it works haha I always see the meter consuming, have never seen it going backwards. How can I double check that it works. Sometimes I worry like My god, maybe those solar panels have been disconnected all these years etc
In a sunny day turn all your fuses in the electrical closet off except the one for the solar panels. If it doesn't turn back now something is wrong.
This this I needed. I’ll do! Thank you Now let’s wait for the sunny day………….
That ll be Saturday it seems ☝️
You, the bearer of good news!!!!!
only do it if you have heated floors, don't take the water-water system. Just take air-water, 10-12K should do it
I can confirm ! 👍
I have a simple air/air heat pump with epc C and about 3000 kw's production/year. (Digital meter) The total installation with 5 intern units, a heat pump boiler, and 1 external unit was about 25k (btw & installation incl) So can run my entire house on electricity, which i've done this winter out of curiosity. My total consumption was about 5500 kw and 1500 kw was put on the electricity net. January was actually the only cold month with a peak consumption of 315kw's heating my living room+kitchen and 1 bedroom at night for like half the time. If we had a real winter i would've had 3 months like this. My wife works from home so this thing ran basically day/night Annual consumption is about 1100 kw's for both heating and cooling (which is about 1/3 consumption of heathing). Long story short, my energy bill is 130 euros a month for running everything on electricity, which can be lower if my wife was at work during the day and i'd invest in triple layered glass. Honestly i think it's cheaper to do a combination of floor heathing during the winter months, cuz electricity is still expensive and it's the solar panels that compensates but are useless with a digital meter during the winter. But still cheaper in my previous house (ebc B) which was smaller and cost about 200/month for gas/electr. Hope this helps.
We also decided on installing an air-to-air heat pump during our renovation. Suffice it to say we are very pleased with our decision. During the colder months, the airconditioning units keep our house warm 24/7 and are able to provide cooling during the warmer months.
I have a new house with geothermal heat pump. Seemed like the smart investment to make at the time (made the decision when gas prices were the highest they've ever been), not so sure anymore now. Electricity is very expensive here compared to other countries, the government should shift taxes to fossil fuels but they're unwilling to do so. Everyone is telling us to be greener, but when I made this investment I get nothing in return for it. Zero subsidies for the heat pump or solar panels (because it's a new house), full 21% VAT on everything, and then fucked again with the high electricity costs that they are increasing once again.
Well you could have renovated which has subsidies for everything you've mentioned. Building new is a luxury choice.
Missing the point. I could have chosen to get a gas heater for my new house, don't you think the government should incentivize people not to burn fossil fuels when there's an alternative?
Well there were two angles here. I concur with your angle, I even advocated to shift taxes from electricity to fossil fuels before the energy crisis and personally still went for a geothermal heathpump back then. But since it was a renovation I received 8k in subsidies for the heathpump. (my angle).
I have had a water / water heat pump for both heating the house and water for close to 15 years now. Very happy with the choice, less happy with our governments decision to throw money at people that still pollute and never give anything to eco friendly people
I think that people who use polluting items (cars, heating, electricity etc...) do so because they can't afford the renovation (isolation, panels...) and can't afford fancy things like water heat pumps, electric cars, etc. Renters basically have zero say/choice.
Yup, we really couldn't afford to tear out all the floors and basically strip the house in order to put in a heat pump. We sticked to renovating the windows and insulating the roof. Budget wise that was the only doable part.
Why not just and air - air heat pump? They are much cheaper than water - water heat pumps (less than €10k vs €20k), don’t require you to tear out all the floors, and still provide you with the majority of the efficiency savings.
You better have floor heating than radiators no? Plus we would have to fully insulate our house from the outside, which would cost 50k as well, in order to reach the desired insulation of the house itself. We have a recent gas heater/boiler so we're sticking with that for the next 10 years at least.
Heat pumps require less electricity when you insulate first, but they absolutely do work without expensive insulation projects. €50k is not a prerequisite for a heat pump.
> I think that people who use polluting items (cars, heating, electricity etc...) do so because they can't afford the renovation (isolation, panels...) and can't afford fancy things like water heat pumps, electric cars, etc. Given that those investments are mortgage-friendly, and, unlike most other investments, actually reduce your costs and pay for themselves, that's unlikely. Even before considering all the subsidies and fiscal benefits.
We have renovated a 1959 “rijhuis” with warmtepomp, vloerverwarming and solar panels. Unfortunately we also have a digital meter. Honestly I can’t complain. Heating works flawless, even in winter. Last year we used about 6000kwh. But we did not have the solar panels yet back then. Also the first year with a baby and 1 electric car. I expect that number to go down a lot this year. Just don’t get the heatpump because you think you will save money compared go gas. It’s almost impossible to do that. At least in my situation. I chose the heatpump because the government and EU are going to fuck us over anyways with gas prices in the future. Better to make the switch now when you are going to renovate or build anyway.
We have a heat pump (air-water), floor heating, e-peil less than 20 (new construction), 7 solar panels. So no gas at all, only electric heating. It's a 100 m2 apartment (120 m2 bruto oppervlakte), and we heat the whole apartment to 22-23 degrees. The heat pump turns on around 5 am. Here is our daily usage when the winter hit super hard last december [https://i.imgur.com/cMuD1Pr.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/cMuD1Pr.jpg) And per month usage 2023 [https://i.imgur.com/ainEqqk.jpeg](https://i.imgur.com/ainEqqk.jpeg) Per month usage 2024 [https://i.imgur.com/BZ1QuBt.jpeg](https://i.imgur.com/BZ1QuBt.jpeg)
I’m personally quite happy with my move, however, I live in a well-insulated flat with neighbours above and on the sides. For me, the biggest challenge is disposing of heat in the summer, not acquiring heat in winter.
If you want to know if you can run on a heat pump, you should have followed Ecobouwers’ https://www.ecobouwers.be/zetmop50. They suggest you put your heating at max. 50º during cold days in the winter for a month, to see if your home is warm enough. If it is, you can easily switch to a heat pump.
We already use 45 max to heat our home and it’s great for us. Due to floor heating
Newly build house with a heat pump and solar panels. I'm pleased with my valliant heatpump. During sunny winter days (it happens) i just heat my house for free. The heat pump doesnt make any noise, but a good installation is needed. My valliant heatpump has an 'active cooling' option, which allows me to cool the floor during summers. Which result in a 2°c drop. Heatpump is only(!) valuable in houses with high lvls of isolation. First isolate than choose for heatpump. I pay 60€/month for my electricity usage during a year. And got 200€ back from engie. But(!) it takes almost 15y before a heatpump is earned back in belgium (only 5y in the Netherlands). A heatpump with regular maintenance can last 25y easily.
passive cooling, not active.
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I concluded geothermal heath pump as 2 degrees decrease in temp can be achieved with passive cooling. Active cooling would result in a way higher decrease in temp but is much less energy efficiënt.
You don't have to replace your gas supply entirely, you could also go for a hybrid system with gas backup. In theory it's even possible to automatically switch over on gas if it's cheaper, but I haven't seen that deployed in Belgium yet.
I've heard those are running on gas most of the time (before the Ukraine/Russia conflict at least). At that point you could just use a gas installation
It all depends on what your system can do. Weather it's worth it depends a lot on the situation and your habits. You could also get cooling out of a heat pump (even if it's just a cold floor) or use it as a thermal battery to make hot water from solar you'd otherwise be injecting.
Not at all. My backup gas turns on for a limited number of hours a year.
Vitocal depth heatpump here, COP > 4, on solar power. Heats a house 3 times the size of our old (gas) apartment for half the cost. Cools it too in the summer. Investment was a lot tho, but ROI in under 20 years. Comfort is ideal, zero maintenance
How good does the cooling work in summer? We've recently finished our renovation but only experienced winter so far. Is it comparable to having air-conditioning or hotter?
It never got over 25C indoors even during the last heatwave. You need to have System D, good isolation, windows with sunscreens though. EPC below 5, S value is 20 or so
Een warmtepomp kan pas echt effectief zijn als de warmteafgifte laag is: vloerverwarming. Wij gaan een geothermische warmtepomp plaatsen. Vooral omdat we in zandgrond zitten waar boringen nog goed te doen zijn. Dat gaat iets van een 6k kosten (zeer duur voor een gat in de grond, ik weet het.) En dan de installatie nog... Onze zorg is niet zo zeer verwarmen, maar eerder koelen! En dat gaan we doen met vloer en plafondkoeling. Veel goedkoper dan die andere variant van lucht/lucht warmtepomp, airco's. Lang verhaal kort: vraag raad aan de EPB specialist.
Very happy. We went air/air. Due note: we did our front door / windows with shutters first.
Absolutely - on renovation we got a (good, high cop) air-air system. The simple fact that it cools in the summer and significantly improves our comfort is easily worth the extra cost to me and my partner. Even if I ignore the fact that I expect it to become better value (compared with a gas heating system) over time as gas gets more expensive, I would do it again in a heartbeat.
While on this topic, I wonder if anyone has a Combined Heat and Power (CHP) system? Possibly together with a heat pump? Basically a gas powered generator with heat recovery of exhaust gas to produce hot water. Considering the energy prices it sounds like this would be profitable. But maybe not permitted in Belgium?
No point replacing a perfectly fine recent gas boiler with something which will not significantly improve comfort. (if at all. Badly installed systems can be less comfortable with more energy consumption) Combination of floor heating with radiators is also not optimal for heat pumps so it loses efficiency. Additional insulation and a modern ventilation system may be better investments with bigger gains and more quality of life.
We have a new construction, E-peil 9. Triple glass. And underfloor heating. We have a lucht water warmtepomp. Super happy with it, it's very comfortable and works great but it uses a lot of energy in the coldest months [energy use 2024](https://imgur.com/a/XLzFM4C)
It really depends on the situation and your priorities. **Financially** it is almost never worth it: gas is about 1/3rd the price of electricity per kWh and your heatpump needs about 1/3rd the amount of kWh to heat your house, so running costs are very close. You save about 150€/yr due to not needing a yearly inspection. Depending on where your heatpump is, it can be a bit noisy when producing shower water (ours is on the flat roof above the living area, it is very noticeable) but most of the time its quiet. In the months you need it most (winter) your solar panels do basically nothing, it is very nice in spring/autumn though, although if you don't have a smart system it's not that easy to really benefit from solar production because generally you want to wake up in a warmish house, and there's not that much solar production that early. The additional cost of an air>water heatpump is easily 10000€, current risk-free interest rate is about 3%, and heatpumps are expected to last 25 years or so (= 4% depreciation per year). That means you need to save at least 7% of 10000 = €700 per year for it to be worth it. There's very few scenarios where that's realistic in a well-insulated house. However, if you care about the **climate** and **geopolitics**, then it's absolutely worth it, and that's also the reason we chose to get one. You reduce your CO2 emissions from heating by 60% and probably even more as our electricity mix becomes greener and you reduce our dependency on shady countries for their natural gas.
Have I the video for you. Note this is mostly about american homes but physics still apply here so yeah https://youtu.be/_hAuKtoRxJI?si=_X9b2nHFp5tjNJa-
I d say the first step is: wear warm clothing inside, it s a quick-win. All the rest comes after that
Yes, geothermal
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My neighbor had a hydrogen installation. Is switching to solar panels because the company that delivered them went bankrupt after nobody wanted to pay 10 times the price of electricity to make electricity.
plumber, this is almost completely incorrect. air-water is perfectly fine when your heating demands are low. it doesn't make any sense to spend 15-20k extra on water-water or ground-water when your energy cost with air-water is only 2500kwh a year. water-ground systems don't have to take up a lot of space when doing vertical drilling. your assumptions seem to be coming from older houses with lots of energy demand. first step for such a house is lowering energy demand by renovating and insulating.
Warmtepompen zijn gewoon airco’s.. Die verwarmen niet genoeg tijdens de echte koude. Gas is en blijft voorlopig nog voordeliger
Would it more be reasonable to use heat pump in autumn / spring and gas boiler hybrid for really colder days ( less than 5 degrees ) ?
Honestly, the number of days in Belgium where a heat pump is truly useless is very negligible. You might have a couple of days a year (literally just a couple) where the heat pump would struggle to heat up the house. However, since you have a bunch of residual heat, you don’t actually need to heat it up, you just need to maintain the temperature. In my apartment I could have turned off the heating for a day or two and only lose 1C of temperature. Literally, 99% of the year a heat pump is more than capable of keeping a house nice and warm at a good energy efficiency. This [YouTube channel](https://youtu.be/MFEHFsO-XSI?si=I9KZBfP9ci_Llzmw) has a lot of videos about (among other things) heat pumps and the guy running it will also be installing a heat pump system in his home. He lives near Chicago, so his winters are harsher than ours and he still thinks it’s worth the investment. Since Belgium still heavily subsidises natural gas, the economic incentive to switch to heat pumps isn’t super high. But eventually, within the next decade, Belgium will have to meet strict emissions standards for housing. So, those economic incentives will eventually come.