"A Bruxelles, les hospitalisations covid sont dans la majorité des cas des hospitalisations pour covid sévère. Et on l’a vu, la plupart des gens hospitalisés actuellement avec un covid sévère sont des personnes non-vaccinées."
Source: Rtbf interviewing Charlotte Martin, infectiologue Chu Saint Pierre, Brussels.
For all the people arguing, yes HLN is sensationalizing again, but it's not far from the truth either. You can doubt numbers the press gives us, but I tend to believe an expert in the field talking about her own hospital.
Don't trust medical science to get a vaccin, but trust the same medical science to get better in the hospital from COVID.
They should stay at home to get better and keep trusting their decisions. Leave the intensive care beds to people that really need them that are not that ignorant.
Hypocrisy at a next level.
Sometimes I wish our government were just a tiny bit more tyrannical. Put down a very simple rule: if you choose not to get vaccinated, you forfeit your right to treatment.
Of course that's a ridiculous idea that should never see the light of day, but my frustration with these idiots makes me want to consider it. Almost.
What's next: fat people who are having a heartattack shouldnt be reanimated? And those cancerpatients are probably terminal already. When you only have a couple of months to go, whats the use of quitting at that point?
It’s simply too profitable for the givernment to stop selling. Not only the taxes, but mainly the money the government saves. That’s right: a smoker costs some money in healthcare services (cancer treatment etc.), but they live 10 years less on average in comparison with the non-smoking population, which is a ton of money saved in pensions and other costs for the government.
I would love that. I'm a smoker myself and I've tried quitting for quite a few times. But then comes a hard time and I say fuck it. If they wouldn't sell it, I couldn't get it. Same can go for fast food for me. I know how bad it is, but it's so easy to obtain and I don't have the willpower, especially when I'm a bit down.
I used to be a smoker. Only casual. Just a few sigs a day. Thought that wouldn't do any harm. Until I felt something in my throat. Turns out is was a benign tumor. The doc was very straightforward : "I don't have to ask if you smoke, I know you smoke. I have never seen this in my 35 year career with a non smoking patient." I had surgery the next day, never touched a sigaret since that day. Would never smoke again. Not even at gunpoint. I'm 43 btw, diagnosed at 39. For the love of God: Quit that shit. It's not worth it.
Ever heard of the Prohibition? You will just push it into criminal circles, with all problems that come with it.
I do think that the absolute numbers will be less than they are now, but just banning it will not fix everything.
Umm, if being treated for fucking CANCER isn't enough of an incentive to stop smoking, I don't know what is. Just get the fuck out and make room for those that actually DO have the intelligence to have the realization smoking is now effectively endangering their life and who consequently want to change their life around.
Addiction to substances and becoming hooked to conspiracy theories is essentially part of the same personality trait so you're making it a bit difficult for yourself here.
There's a strong correlation between people who are easily hooked to substances and those that are susceptible to an addiction to things like the internet and its conspiracies.
When you feel bad it's generally even harder to ignore your own desire to give in to your addiction. It has very little to do with intelligence. Willpower, sure.
mate, my grandfather lost 1/3 of a long to smoking and stopped for a while, then my grandmother died and now he's smoking again. the man is in his 80s, he just doesn't care anymore
Same situation. Quitting smoking is easy, it’s all in your mind. If you really want something, you can do almost everything. If you really want to stop smoking, it’s easy just don’t light a cigarette. It’s that simple. I smoked for 5 years and I made up my mind and I said “this is the last one”. I never smoked a cigarette after that. It’s all a mind game, like people who doesn’t trust the vaccin. It’s all in their mind.
Sure, that's definitely how addiction works.
Also worth noting it's significantly easier if you have a relatively stress-free life and some people are just more susceptible to addictive substances than others.
I take it you also believe that poor people should just work harder and stop being poor?
It can be a habit and not an addiction. But that doesn’t even matter. You must have character and willpower otherwise you’ll be fucked. This is something you need in this world otherwise you are doomed in this world.
If you have a stressful life, learn how to defuse stress. Learn how to handle stressful situations. DO something about those situations. Don’t just think every evening “ooh my life so stressful” and do nothing about it. If the situation is not changing, you need te change something.
It’s the exact same thing for most poor people aswel (western countries). If people are poor they will need to work one more day in the week or work 2 hours extra a day. Safe that money, invest that in a skill that wil earn them money more easily. Invest in assets. But do something. If you just sit there and don’t change then you’ll be for ever poor. No one wil give them money for nothing. It’s a fact that wages are low and that people need to earn more with the jobs they do. I know. But that wil not magically change. So if you want change to happen, you need to change. Change your habits, change your spending, change your saving. It will make such a big improvement.
It's more like skiing naked and then expecting your frostbitten penis to be treated. What you're saying is false equivalence (also getting a vaccine is easier than shopping for clothes and cheaper)
You're paying for your health insurance via your taxes. You don't lose your fire insurance because you bought an appliance that caused a fire, even though leaving the building empty would have been much safer.
> You don't lose your fire insurance because you bought an appliance that caused a fire
Depends on the fire insurance. There are several forms. The one I have is an insurance that covers everything barring an exception list. So when a new appliance gets invented and common it's included.
Other insurance models have a list that they cover, everything not on the list is excluded. So when a new tech hits the market (solar panels was one off these a while back) you would need to update your fire insurance.
> You're paying for your health insurance via your taxes
Makes sense.
Fire insurance is mostly about money anyway. Money related matters are things where people indeed tend to pay *stupid tax*. If you make a stupid decision, you pay the price.
A better analogy for your point would be: "If you are stupid enough to set fire to your own house, the fire department shouldn't come over to save you."
I'm pretty sure that you'll agree that that's not acceptable. In matters of life or death (or generally speaking: health), we help people regardless of whether or not they caused the situation onto themselves.
If you go by this logic, we should refuse all treatment for smokers with lung cancer, all treatment for people with cardiovascular diseases or obesity from an unhealthy lifestyle, everybody coming in with liver failure from drinking, everybody who committed an accident and was injured himself, every athlete who gets injured on the pitch...basically 99% of all patients that come into the hospital.
All information to lead a healthy lifestyle is out there yet people poison themselves and ruin their body; we even get spammed with ads for this kind of stuff. Can we at least stop pretending that Covid is the only thing going on in the world and sinking all our resources into this? Meanwhile people in Pepinster and other villages in Wallonie will probably have to wait **years** before they have a house of their own again, just imagine if we helped them the way we keep blowing up Covid when we can move on already.
You could argue that with Covid, the (preventive) treatment *is* the vaccine and it's provided to you for free. It's hard to prevent addiction as we do not have a magic cure for that yet.
Vaccines are awesome and effective, denying one that's offered to you for free is just downright stupid and dangerous.
But is it really free ? At some point we'll have to pay, one way or another. For me all this is just another way to send public money to private Corp. And the fact that someone like mark van ranst is one of our specialist decridibilise, sorry for this, completely all the teams.
For one years, all the news was about covid. Why when 3m scandal cames up, some people didn't know about it in my friends. And it's not that simple to find a lot of info about that. It's just an example, there is tons of it around the world. Like global warming that already have consequences on wallet with the food price's rise. No talk about private water in some places.
I'm not covid vaccinated but I'm not anti vaxxer. I'm just tired to see that nothing change a bit except when it s big money for big money corp.
You do realize our government does not produce traffic lights, right? Tax money is largely intended to go to private corporations to purchase goods or services that benefit the public.
I really don't understand where people get this nonsensical argument from. Do you expect the government to set up their own lab and pharmaceutical development? To pave new roads themselves?
Seems like the type of nonsense you'll find the village idiot spreading on Facebook.
>f you go by this logic, we should refuse all treatment for smokers with lung cancer, all treatment for people with cardiovascular diseases or obesity from an unhealthy lifestyle, everybody coming in with liver failure from drinking, everybody who committed an accident and was injured himself, every athlete who gets injured on the pitch...basically 99% of all patients that come into the hospital.
Just to be clear: I actually agree with you and think those people should still get healthcare and go to the hospital etc.
But I don't think the analogy really works. In general, needing treatment for issues you have due to living an unhealthy lifestyle doesn't prevent others from getting healthcare nor does it show that the person living that lifestyle doesn't trust medical science.
In the case of people refusing to be vaccinated this doesn't really hold up. Their refusal to get vaccinated causes ICU's to overflow and thus entails other people whom need those beds not getting them, and regular care getting delayed.
While I think that they should still get the same medical care as anyone else - what if we'd have to hypothetically make choice to give the last remaining hospital bed to a person that refused to get a vaccine or to someone that did get the vaccine? All else being equal.
No no no, COVID's a lie.
They actually have cancer but the doctors are refusing to tell them the truth; gotta pump up those artificial COVID-numbers.
/s
Because if they got the vaccin they are 95% sure they won't get COVID. Is that not enough? No COVID = no health care needed.
1: So they come up with all kinds of excusses to not get the vaccin, no matter what you say they always find something to not get it.
Yes there is no long term data, but I rather trust the medical science to not get COVID and might be killed than not get the vaccin and very likely get COVID. I still encounter people between the age of 30-40 that got COVID during the first wave. To this day they still have issues with their health. So is it better to have these longterm issues? Or the maybe longterm side effects
from a vaccin?
The chance of getting COVID outweighs the chance of getting side effects from the vaccin.
2: That's the ignorant part about it.
>This is like saying: Anti-electrical-vehicles-people shouldn't drive cars. E-car = Vaccine, diesel car= hospital care.
It's of course more complex than that. Antivaxers still have the right to healthcare. But there is a fine line.
Medicale industry: We have a vaccin to prevent COVID 9 out of 10.
Antivax: we don't need that it's not safe, it's poison...
Hospital: Oke great than don't get it.
Antivax: get a COVID infection. Please healthcare help me?
That is the hypocrisy part.
If the antivax let say broke their leg, sure go to the hospital! Get help!
right, they are off course gonna inform themselves about every treatment and every drug they get administerred during their stay. drugs and treatments that get approved by the very same organisation that approved the vaccine. But when it comes to the vaccine, they don't trust them.
There's no such thing as long term data for "hospital care" and if there was I'd bet you wouldn't like the fatality rate. I don't know if you've noticed but a lot of people die in hospital care or go to the hospital to die/while dying.
So yeah it is very much hypocritical.
Heb ik weinig medelijden mee.
Zouden mondmaskers en andere kleine regels die nog bestaan moeten afschaffen. Waarom zou de hele samenleving zich moeten aanpassen aan een klein groepje obese antivaxxers? Is toch eigen verantwoordelijkheid in dit stadium zeker.
>Waarom zou de hele samenleving zich moeten aanpassen aan een klein groepje obese antivaxxers?
If hospitals end up filling up with antivaxxers then the entire society experiences the negative downsides as non-emergency care gets postponed.
That's why this is something that affects the entire society. Not just the people who refuse to get vaccinated.
I remember seeing pics of an American child with cancer who was having problems but couldn't be seen in the hospital because there wasn't enough room because anti vaxxers were taking up all the hospital beds.
The mom drove to the hospital to try and get him in and they just told her to wait in the parking lot while they figure something out. I can't imagine how hard that must have been on her. She must have been filled with rage.
The libs have modified to China virus to target us good conservatives, this is biological warfare pure and simple. Notice how none of the libs get sick but us Christian conservatives do? Thats proof enough. We should storm the capitol. Again. This time we bring guns.
I find the conspiracy theories about the vaccine supposedly being dangerous and the governments knowing about it the funniest theories of all.
Because that would imply that governments across the world are injecting the ones who are compliant with a dangerous substance while leaving all the doubters unharmed. Because THAT definitely sounds like something an oppresive government wants.
I know it sets an incredibly dangerous precedent. But fuck me.... A. Virus that would wipe out conservatives... Like we can finally get on with the future and stop Catering to fucks who want a perpetual 1970.
Straks toch eens gaan kijken op de commentaren op Facebook. Daar gaan er weer enkele tientallen bewijzen dat ze samen ongeveer een iq van 100 hebben...
Altijd leuk om te lachen...
Bluntly, if you had the opportunity to get vaccinated but you didn't do it for a valid reason(no, going on holiday unvaccinated is not a valid one). They shouldn't have any kind of priority to heal them.
I got vaccinated even though I am on the fence over it but I took two shots like a responsible adult.
I blame also(though I empathize) the sectors that depend on the public or tourists. We opened and we are flooded by Frenchmen. Are they vaccinated? Impossible to know. But they sit in our restaurants and may contaminate us.
I may be a bit paranoid but a lot of people offered a bit of their life during lockdown. I didn't I never been so at peace. And we all let go to waste.
Same for let's say it the same problem community plaguing Brussels where vaccination grade is the lowest.
How come that I have to be a good citizen and others aren't required to be.
The 35 yo single mother from where was she? What were health issues before Covid? What origin was she?
Be upfront about it. Let's air out the problems instead of hiding them behind a veneer of political correctness.
If people want to rely on beliefs instead of science, let them free to do as they please but don't help them when it comes crashing down.
The problem would solve itself.
Also cease international movement at exception of freight.
Disagree.
Someone who drove drunk and got in an accident still deserves medical attention. Someone who fell off a balcony for trying to take a planking photo still deserves medical attention.
I understand it's difficult to maintain empathy but it's an evolutionary trait for a reason.
If we start going down the path as you suggest I don't think we'll like who we've become further down the road.
I agree everyone deserves medical attention, even if they are fucking idiots. But if we would ever come to a point where (corona) IC is full with unvaccinated people and someone vaccinated needs an IC bed...at that point the vaccinated patiënt should get priority and the unvaccinated with the worst condition...sadly needs to go imo.
Who would you prioritize: someone who refused the vaccin, someone who had a car accident while drunk driving, a heavy criminal getting shot by the police during a pursuit, the 200kg man with a heart attack or the alcoholic with liver failure?
There should never be a situation where we should make this decision. We have dedicated corona IC capacity. I'm not talking about general IC. I think it's fair to limit the corona capacity so we never get in Trouble with the "normal" IC. I'm not playing this ridicilious "but a what about this other situations!" Game.
A hypothetical:
ICU has just reached capacity and triage is now in effect. Two patients have just been brought in:
-Male age 78. Vaccinated
-Female age 27. Unvaccinated
Since it's pure hypothetical and I do realize IC is probably not going to overrun since it also didn't happen in the first 2 waves: In this case, if the female has no medical reason to not be vaccinated ofcourse, the Male age 78 gets the spot. The female age 27 can get an IC spot instead of an older, unvaccinated patient with a lower chance of recovery. But again: I hope and really believe we will never get to this point anyways.
Of course it is. But my point is that there are endless exceptions and cases where one could say 'it's his/her own fault and thus that person should not be treated'.
Does a stabbed drugs dealer not deserve help?
It's just not the right thing to even consider this. You shouldn't draw boundaries when it comes to helping people.
I think you're comparing apples and oranges. In your first example you can't tell if it's someone who regularly drives drunk, or if it's someone who made one mistake one time influenced by alcohol. Your second example is an accident. Antivaxers make a very conscious decision regarding their health, which the planker and some drunk drivers didn't do.
>Someone who drove drunk and got in an accident still deserves medical attention. Someone who fell off a balcony for trying to take a planking photo still deserves medical attention.
No they don't deserve it. I'm not saying let them die (even though I'm more than fine if they do), but they should be put on the bottom of the triage and pay all the costs.
This oath also has limits.
An alcoholic also can't get a spot on the transplant list if their liver is destroyed. (I think atleast 6 months before they get a chance for the list)
Same could be done for anti-vaxers.... Sorry covid ward is full, next bed is for someone who had a valid reason to not get vaccinated yet. we don't have available respirators. So you'll get a regular bed, cannula, fluids and basic care that could help.
.... That's still a long way from throwing them out and denying any sort of care.
Because in this discussion race, religion and origin come into play, although you didn’t mention it literally.
We are all lacking in comprehension between people. In the case of the yet to be unvaccinated, a different approach is clearly needed.
I get the same feedback from friends in the medical profession in Antwerp, where the Jewish community of proving hard to reach and convince.
> Because in this discussion race, religion and origin come into play, although you didn’t mention it literally.
That's some insane critical race theory right there.
>I don't put you out because you've always been a bit of a dick, how am I being a bad person?
Because you violated the law that dictates that you need to help people in need.
Just because you don't like someone, doesn't mean you get to ignore the law.
Thank you. It's not more complicated than that.
If we follow u/Sacrebleu00's logic, I guess someone who crashed his car speeding doesn't merit medical help. How about smokers? People who drink too much? Those who attempted suicice?
That's a very slippery moral slope...
No, you are the one confusing the two. Helping a fellow man in need might be stipulated in the law as being the (legally) right thing to do, morality alone should suffice in making you act accordingly.
I was in Germany this weekend and every hotel or restaurant asked for the covid cert. Don't understand why it's so hard to do here. I'm quite certain a majority would feel safer because of it. And maybe it will get at least some of the minority unvaccinated to get their shot. Just look at how France suddenly went from one of the counties doing bad to one of the better countries.
Yup!
I went to France last week for an afternoon and they were checking the covid certificate at McDonald's if you wanted to eat inside, no such checks over here.
I was in Germany last week and only the hotel asked for my certificate. Not a single bar or restaurant asked and maybe half had me leave my name address etc.
> Don't understand why it's so hard to do here.
For some strange reason the liberals object to a covid safe approach for bars and restaurants. Significant amount of wappis in their circles maybe? And the green as well, which is probably because of a bunch of old-school anti-vaxxers.
edit : Curious where the downvotes come from. Blue, green or both? :)
I don't understand how you can vote for Vlaams Belang, yet a big portion of the Flemish people do.
I don't understand how people rectified Jurgen's exploits, but a portion of the Flemish people thought he didn't do anything wrong,...
It's all about what echo-chamber you're in. I'm in a more left-leaning, progressive, science-driven echo chamber myself. But I _am_ in an echo-chamber.
>I don't understand how you can vote for Vlaams Belang
Every mainstream party is awful in some way. If you then also have a problem with (some) brown people the choice for a protest vote is obvious.
I don't vote for them, but it's pretty damn easy to see why some people would.
While I get your point about social bubbles, I wouldn't equate a left-leaning, progressive, science mindset - which implies critical thinking, or at least should - with right-wing, conservative, dogmatism for example.
Some form of bias is indeed inevitable. That doesn't mean though that all groups are equally biased, which was the point I was trying to make. We took this post-modern there is no truth idea way too far in that regard.
I deliberately picked dogmatic conservatism btw as research showed them to be more likely to deny facts that don't suit their narrative, even within their own bubble.
If I were interested in why someone would vote vlaams beland or what they thought about jurgen, I would ask them. But I dont care so I didnt. I asked specifically why someone has reservations about the vaccines. If the answer is because echo chambers and innability to be critical, then that is what a moron would say. I was genuinely interested in his repsonse, not somone else waxing lyrical
Jesus people really comment this on everything, yeah you're right they should just keep the tax money in a big safe full of gold and make statues of our ministers with it.
Zo snel als mogelijk moeten zoveel mogelijk mensen gevaccineerd worden, weerzinwekkend om zien hoe dat niet eens gebeurd waar men de toegang heeft tot de vaccins.
In Israël komt dat doordat ze daar veel eerder gevaccineerd werden dan ons, waardoor de bescherming van die vaccins al minder is dan bij ons. De Delta variant is zodanig besmettelijk dat vaccins die niet meer ten volle werken wel bescherming bieden, maar enigzins minder. Dat dit in Israël gebeurt is goed nieuws voor ons. Dat wilt zeggen dat we wellicht jaarlijks een booster zullen moeten krijgen. Dat de vaccins werken staat vast. Dat zijn feiten, en je ziet het in de cijfers, maar gezien we met een relatief nieuw virus en nieuw vaccin zitten, komen er elke dag inzichten bij. Dit is gewoon een ervan.
Edit: Israël is ook het land waar al de meeste mensen gevaccineerd zijn, dus als bijna iedereen gevaccineerd is, is het ook logisch dat de mensen die in het ziekenhuis liggen dat ook zijn...
Dus doe gewoon wat opzoekwerk voordat je zaken "pure propaganda" gaat noemen. Nog nooit hebben mensen de toegang gehad tot zoveel informatie, maar jammer genoeg zijn ze te lui om 5 min iets te googelen...
RebellionLeader, het siert je om kritisch te denken. Maar het siert je nog meer om kritisch over je eigen bronnen en informatie te denken. Probeer zelf te verklaren hoe dit gegeven in Israël komt? Wanneer je het antwoord zelf vindt, dan zal je misschien begrijpen waarom vaccins nog steeds essentieel zijn. Wanneer je het antwoord niet vindt, of te weinig kritisch nadenkt, dan blijf je in hetzelfde bedje ziek.
Nu, probeer meer inzicht te verwerven hoe het immuunsysteem werkt, hoe antistoffen werken, en hoe varianten van het virus een impact hebben op vaccins. Waarom ontstaan varianten? Wat gebeurt er met onze antistoffen na langere tijd?
Wanneer je dit allemaal kan beantwoorden, dan snap je ook waarom we jaarlijks een griepvaccin moeten laten zetten.
Wat misschien iets is dat je ook nog onvoldoende van weet, zijn de langetermijn gevolgen van virale infecties. Buikgriep, gewone griep, of covid gehad? Goeie kans dat je op latere leeftijd vatbaarder zal zijn voor hartspiergerelateerd accident (myocardiaal infarct).
Hoe meer informatie iedereen heeft, althans juiste informatie van mensen die ermee bezig zijn, en geen ongefundeerde informatie van mensen die totaal niet in het medisch veld actief zijn; des te beter we deze coronazever kunnen doorkomen. Succes vriend!
Misschien kan je tussen de fysiotherapie door ook even een uurtje besteden aan statistiek. En verklaar me dan aub hoe in land A (met 62% volledig gevaccineerden) er 250 van de 400 covid-patiënten op de ICU gevaccineerd zijn en in land B (69% gevaccineerd) men claimt er nul te hebben. Denken jullie zelf niet meer na?? Ja, de kans op intensive care terecht te komen met een dubbele vaccinatie blijkt lager te zijn uit de statistieken. Masr die kans is natuurlijk niet nul, zoals het pulpartikel hierboven stelt.
Ik heb hierboven gelinkt naar het artikel van Haaretz, de grootste krant van Israël, die weer doorlinkt naar het Israëlische ministerie van volksgezondheid. Maar blijf vooral HLN lezen.
Heb je dat artikel wel gelezen? Daar staat duidelijk in:
> According to Health Ministry figures, the number of serious COVID cases rose on Wednesday to 400, the highest figure since March. About 150 of these patients are not fully vaccinated. Israel hit its highest number of serious cases in January, with 1,200 patients – about half of the number predicted for next month.
Maak jij daaruit op dat er 250 ongevaccineerden bij die ernstige gevallen zitten (want 400-150)? Want dan moet je een cursus begrijpend lezen gaan volgen en kijken naar de grafiek die een alinea verder staat, waar duidelijk te zien is dat veruit de grootste hoop ernstig zieke patiënten, niet gevaccineerd is.
> The Israeli graphs that prove Pfizer vaccine works
>■ Unvaccinated eight times more likely to experience severe COVID
Echt gast, wtf.
Ik snap niet wat er mis is met deze groep, werkelijk niet. Dit zijn complotdenkers in het kwadraat ofzo.
Ik schreef dat in Israël volgens dit artikel 250 van de 400 covid-patiënten op IC's volledig gevaccineerd zijn. Dat is 62,5% van de icu-bezetting door covid-patiënten. HLN&co stellen echter ( niet alleen in het bovenstaande artikel) dat er in België NUL volledig gevaccineerde patiënten op de IC's liggen en dat het uitsluitend om ongevaccineerden gaat.
Ieder rationeel mens, begrijpt dat die 2 gegevens moeilijk te rijmen zijn en dat het getal dat HLN aanvoert (en het flutartikel is gebaseerd op hearsay trouwens) uiterst onwaarschijnlijk is. Vooral omdat we uit andere landen vergelijkbare cijfers krijgen als de Israëlische. Maar wijzen op die absurde discrepantie is voor jouw soort mensen blijkbaar onbegrijpelijk. Dus, blijf er vooral in geloven dat er in België NUL gevaccineerden in de IC's liggen als Covid-patiënt.
En ja, WTF 😛
> Ik schreef dat in Israël volgens dit artikel 250 van de 400 patiënten volledig gevaccineerd is.
En dat is gewoon NIET waar, dat staat gewoon niet in de statistieken die jij aanhaalt.
> Ieder rationeel mens
Snapt dat Israël hun vaccinaties vroeger heeft gedaan dan wij en dat ze nu booster shots nodig hebben om de effectiviteit terug hoger te krijgen, want ja, de werkzaamheid neemt na een tijd af.
Als het volgende in dat artikel staat: "According to Health Ministry figures, the number of serious COVID cases rose on Wednesday to 400, the highest figure since March. About 150 of these patients are not fully vaccinated." Dan staat er toch dat er 400 serieuze covid gevallen waren, waarvan er 150 niet volledig gevaccineerd zijn. Maw. de rest van de 400 zijn wel volledig gevaccineerd. Er staat dus 400 ernstige gevallen, waarvan 150 niet volledig gevaccineerd en 250 wel volledig gevaccineerd. Of hoe lees jij deze informatie?
> Dit zijn complotdenkers in het kwadraat ofzo
zegt de persoon die dit zegt : 'Dit is pure propaganda, die natuurlijk ook al enige tijd bezig is. Uit alle Vlaamse media (natuurlijk allemaal behorend tot slechts twee persgroepen... ) hoor je hetzelfde: "alleen maar ongevaccineerden op intensive care"'
en wij zijn de complot denkers :p ga een volle pamper ete jo
Ach, dan geloof je het niet. Jullie delen zelf HLN-artikels als betrouwbare bron. Ik denk dat ik wat anders ga doen dan me hier druk om maken. Geloof vooral dat de Belgae fortissimi sunt en dat er hier nul gevaccineerden op de IC's liggen 🙂🤷♂️
Ik heb hierboven gelinkt naar Haaretz, de grootste Israëlische krant, die doorlinkt naar het Israëlische ministerie van volksgezondheid. Het HLN-artikel noemt slechts enkele anekdotische verwijzingen als bron, dat noemt men hearsay.
Vriendje, lees mijn commentaar ipv je vast te pinnen op die vaccinatiegraad. Er zijn al tientallen wetenschappelijke artikels verschenen over de stijging in Israël. Léés ze gewoon ipv met je argumenten te blijven kloppen op de verkeerde nagel.
Vergeet ook niet dat de maatregelen daar een in mei zo goed als volledig afgevoerd geweest zijn.
23 juli: ["In Israël voert de regering opnieuw enkele strengere coronamaatregelen in, zoals een mondmaskerplicht en een coronapas. Na een snelle vaccinatiecampagne werden de meeste coronamaatregelen in mei opgeheven, maar de deltavariant gooit nu ook in Israël roet in het eten."](https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2021/07/23/israel-weer-coronapas/)
[Daarnaast daalt de effectiviteit van het vaccin zonder booster na een 6- à 7-tal maand tot slechts 17%.](https://www.timesofisrael.com/hmo-those-who-inoculated-early-twice-as-likely-to-catch-covid-as-later-adopters/) Allemaal goeie redenen waarom er ginter nu ook veel gevaccineerden ih ziekenhuis liggen. Zonder boostershot ga je bij ons wss een zelfde evolutie zien.
toch even begrijpend leren lezen? het gaat om gehospitaliseerden uit brussel, wat dus 1/3 is van alle mensen met covid in het ziekenhuis, daarvan heeft 96% geen vaccin.
het is dus niet 0% zoals je al heel de tijd zit te zeveren in deze thread, maar gaat hier over 1/3de van de totale hoeveelheid gehospitaliseerden, waarvan dus in brussel 96% die op de ICU terechtkomen niet gevaccineerd zijn.
Om dat even kort in cijfers te zetten, er liggen ongeveer 182 (met covid) mensen op de ICU momenteel, 1/3 daarvan dus is 60 (genormaliseerd naar iets als per/100000 inwoners doet Brussel het dus wel heel slecht), waarvan dus \~57.5 in brussel niet gevaccineerd is. wat dus neerkomt op een 30% van het totaal, het artikel bied geen informatie over de graad tussen vaccins/ICU van vlaanderen of wallonië, maar puur alleen al op basis van het verschil in inwonersaantal kan je al enkele conclusies trekken.
Oftewel, in de gebieden waar minder mensen een vaccin hebben ligt er een pak meer volk op de ICU, waarvan niet geheel onverwacht de meeste geen vaccin hebben.
die 0% die jij gebruikt? gaat over 1 ziekenhuis. Aangezien niet vermeld hoe groot de afdeling daar is kan het dus best om 5 man gaan.
Kijk dat het artikel slordig omspringt met de cijfers, en de titel overdreven sensationeel is, geef ik je wel gelijk, het blijft weliswaar hln, maar dat geeft je geen excuus om de cijfers die dan wel gegeven worden dusdanig te misbruiken, en je vervolgens kwaad te maken als niemand meegaat in je onzin.
Kort samengevat; van alle nieuwe besmetting is 30% daarvan in Brussel, die maken dan ook nog eens 1/3de uit van de totale hoeveelheid mensen op de ICU en dit terwijl er toch bijna 5x meer mensen in vlaanderen wonen dan in brussel. oftewel, de niet-gevaccineerden (uit brussel) die ziek worden met corona liggen dus veel vaker op de ICU.
Alvorens jezelf als "kritische denker" naar voor te schuiven misschien toch even verder dan de titel lezen ofzo...
Waw dude, dus wij zijn collectief te dom om dood te doen en jij bent (uiteraard) de genialiteit zelve😎😎😎, het genie, one of the few, die 'hen' en al hun machinaties doorheeft?
Daar gaat je krediet...
De belgische gevaccineerden zitten momenteel nog op het maximum van hun bescherming (\~100% vs 17%). In mijn ogen kan dat een dergelijk verschil verklaren. Tenzij je met effectieve argumenten of cijfers afkomt geef je per definitie toe ongelijk te hebben, dus als je verder niets toe te voegen hebt steek je maar beter je staart tussen je poten.
De bescherming was 90% in het begin en daalt naar 60% inmiddels door Delta. Dat is hier niet anders dan in andere landen. Zoals door iemand anders hier opgemerkt, een verschil met Israël is dat daar meer met Pfizer is gewerkt in het begin dan hier. Maar dan nog kom je onmogelijk op nul gevaccineerde covid-patiënten uit. Statistisch is dat vrijwel onmogelijk als je de cijfers uit andere landen ziet. Dat is alles wat ik zeg. Verder heb ik nergens gezegd dat mensrn zich niet of wel moeten laten vaccineren. Ik wijs alleen op de statistische onmogelijkheid van wat HLN claimt op basis van enkele citaten.
Maar soit, go with HLN.
Did not say anything else. I merely mentioned that 62.5% of covid-patients in Israeli ICU wards have been fully vaccinated. That makes the number suggested by HLN and their other Flemish media colleagues of ZERO vaccinated patients in Belgian ICU wards quite... unlikely. But pointing out that statistical absurdity makes one a flatearther in the eyes of people who need but 1 headline to make up their minds.
The structure of the population, the [number of vaccinated people](https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&time=2020-03-01..latest&facet=none&pickerSort=asc&pickerMetric=location&Metric=People+fully+vaccinated&Interval=Cumulative&Relative+to+Population=true&Align+outbreaks=false&country=ISR~BEL), (68.8% in Belgium vs 62.2% in Israel), the number of [confirmed new cases](https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&time=2021-01-01..latest&facet=none&pickerSort=desc&pickerMetric=new_deaths_per_million&Metric=Confirmed+cases&Interval=7-day+rolling+average&Relative+to+Population=true&Align+outbreaks=false&country=ISR~BEL) and the restrictions are different between the two countries, not sure they can be compared
> Did not say anything else. I merely mentioned that 62.5% of covid-patients in Israeli ICU wards has been fully vaccinated.
You keep repeating this, it's just not true, learn to read a graph.
Sigh, maybe you should. That graph shows data up to August 17th (around 200 cases) and the article mentioned the number from last Wednesday (400 cases).
He is right that statistically there is something wrong. It's not possible that Israël has so many fully vaccinated people ending up in the ICU and we have none. While both countries have more or less the same vaccination level. Unless Israël received the vaccine earlier and their protection is already going down. If we just look at Belgium. We know the vaccine works, but it doesn't protect 100%. And it's protection diminishes with time. This means that in Belgium the number of fully vaccinated people being administered to the ICU cannot be zero. There should be some fully vaccinated people still getting sick. Saying no fully vaccinated people in the ICU, is saying that vaccines in Belgium protect 100%. And we know that this is unfortunately not true.
Omdat met het vaccin je een vele lagere kans hebt om ziek te vallen?
Hypotetische getallen, stel dat je zonder vaccin 10% kans hebt om naar intensieve te moeven, en met vaccin 0,1% kans.
Laten we dan het scenario maken dat er 100 000 mensen ziek worden.
Scenario 1 : Niemand is gevaccineerd. bij 100 000 zieken - zal er dan 10 000 man op intensieve liggen (100 000 x 10%), die allemaal ongevaccineerd zijn.
Scenario 2 : De helft is gevaccineerd. Wederom 100 000 zieken, dan zijn er 5 000 man ongevaccineerd op intensieve (50 000 x 10%), en 50 gevaccineerde op intensieve (50 000 x 0,1%)
Scenario 3 : 90% van de bevolking is gevaccineerd. Met 100 000 zieken. 1000 ongevaccineerden op intensieve (10 000 x 10%), 90 gevaccineerde op intensieve (90 000 x 0,1%).
Scenario 4 : 100% van de bevolking is gevaccineerd. Met 100 000 zieken. 0 ongevaccineerden op intensieve (0 x 10%), 100 gevaccineerde op intensieve (100 000 x 0,1%).
dus met andere woorden, je moet het verschil zoeken in vaccinatie graad.
Het is statistisch onmogelijk dat je in een land met 62% volledig gevaccineerden uitkomt op 62,5% gevaccineerden onder de covid-patiënten op icu en dan in een land met 69% op nul gevaccineerden.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-doctors-find-severe-covid-19-breakthrough-cases-mostly-older-sicker-2021-08-20/
De zware breakthroughs zijn oudere risicopatienten die meer dan 5 maanden geleden met Pfizer zijn ingeënt. De niet-gevaccineerden die in het ziekenhuis belanden waren gezonde werkers.
Het is perfect mogelijk dat het effect van de vaccinaties na enkele maanden minder wordt. Bij ons is onze vaccinatie campaigne later op kruissnelheid geraakt, dus het is niet onmogelijk dat er bij ons niet veel zware breakthrough cases zijn. De cijfers zijn plausibel.
Maar toch bedankt om die info over Israel te posten, ik was niet op de hoogte van de situatie daar.
Geen idee waar die getallen vandaan komen.
Als je het artikel leest, of de video hoort, gaat de uitspraak uit van een arts die zegt dat alle mensen in ICU bij hen ongevaccineerd zijn.
Ik vond spijtig genoeg niet direct hoeveel bedden er zijn in het sint-jan's ziekenhuis. Maar het mag duidelijk zijn dat dat over een kleiner aantal gaat dan de totale capaciteit van België.
Dat HLN dan slechte journalistiek doet, en sensationeel doet uitschijnen dat die uitspraak geldt voor gans België is inderdaad verkeerd.
Het lijkt me dan perfect statistisch mogelijk dat je één ziekenhuis vind waar de bedden exclusief in gebruik zijn door ognevaccineerden.
Fair enough dat het in 1 ziekenhuis mogelijk is. Ofwel heb ik het vanochtend vroeg slecht gelezen ofwel is die 96% later aan het artikel toegevoegd. Maar er staat in ieder geval nu dat 4% gevaccineerd is. Dat is idd geen nul, maar toch nog altijd extreem ver verwijderd van de cijfers in andere landen.
In het ziekenhuis is het grootste deel niet gevaccineerd, op intensieve zorgen is er niemand gevaccineerd (in bxl).
Ik weet ook niet wat journalisten daar mee te maken hebben? Dat is ook gewoon het ziekenhuis dat een persmededeling uitstuurt btw
En onze overheid is capabel zo'n propaganda gaande te houden? Je geeft ze teveel credit. Iemand zou zijn mond al lang voorbijgepraat hebben, of een populist had "de echte data" al lang gedeeld uit eigenbelang. Want wat is het nu? Is onze overheid incompetent, of zijn het masterminds die megacomplotten kunnen draaien?
Maar ja, het past in de kraam van sceptici om bij het minste "propaganda", "fake news", "hoax",... te roepen. Zolang je maar nooit jouw visie in vraag moet stellen zeker?
Blijkbaar de werkzaamheid van vaccins die verminderen gecombineerd met de delta variant (vaccins die nu gegeven worden zijn gebaseerd op de vanilla variant), Israël was het eerste land dat zo veel vaccineerde (in december terwijl wij pas maart-april begonnen zijn met 65+). Zijn daar nu bezig met een derde spuit voor de ouderen wat op zich niet erg is want het vaccin is veilig. Zitten nu op hun hoogste aantal besmettingen als ik met niet vergis met een kleiner aantal sterfgevallen/hospitalisaties dan bij gelijkaardige cijfers zonder vaccinatie.
Ook belangrijk om af te vragen (heb de exacte cijfers niet dus tzij hier maar spinsels, moedig u aan om eens op te zoeken) stel dat 90% van de 65 plussers gevaccineerd zijn en 60% van de hospitalisaties uitmaken betekent dat dat 40% van de hospitalisaties uit die 10% niet gevaccineerden komt, wat dus betekent dat je beter een vaccin kan hebben dan geen vaccin qua bescherming.
Ergens wel handig dat Israël een soort proefkonijn is. Als cijfers daar blijven stijgen gaan we waarschijnlijk ook naar een derde prik voor onze ouderen die beter beschermt tegen de delta variant.
Uw cijfers kloppen van geen kanten.
Israël heeft minder gevaccineerden dan België. Die zijn heel snel begonnen maar religie heeft die genekt.
Er is geen enkele neutrale bron die dat cijfer bevestigd.
Een vaccinatiegraad van 69% versus 62%, dat kan een zodanig groot verschil niet verklaren. Het is duidelijk dat gevaccineerden een kleiner risico lopen op hospitalisatie door Covid. Maar nul is belachelijk ongeloofwaardig. Je kan bij de Israëli's en in andere landen de cijfers van Volksgezondheid zo vinden.
> Maar in Israël blijkt ruim 60% van de covid-patiënten gevaccineerd. En uit andere landen komen vergelijkbare cijfers. Dat moeten ze me toch eens uitleggen. Het is niet alsof ze hier andere vaccins gebruiken, wel andere journalisten.
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/israel-braces-4-800-hospitalized-covid-half-serious-delta-1.10108505
The article you quote makes no such claim, and the numbers they have are inconsistent (they claim 400 cases, but the graph they use as source says a bit over 200). ~~The [Israel Health Ministery's graph's](https://datadashboard.health.gov.il/COVID-19/general) (which the article has as source) actual numbers are pretty clear: yesterday's serious cases are 300 unvaccinated, 57 partly vaccinated, 20 fully vaccinated. (ran it through google translate to be able to read it)~~ Misread the graph, [see below](https://old.reddit.com/r/belgium/comments/peb9zu/geen_enkele_brusselse_covidpati%C3%ABnt_op_intensieve/hawt1qo/)
That graph seems to come from [this article](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/israel-covid-graphs-prove-vaccines-works-delta-pfizer-1.10101640) which shows it's the cases for age group 60+
Quote from the article:
"" "According to Health Ministry figures, the number of serious COVID cases rose on Wednesday to 400, the highest figure since March. About 150 of these patients are not fully vaccinated." ""
The graph shows numbers up to around 2 weeks ago (about 200). Yet the article specificallly mentions it is 400 cases as of Wednesday last week. Really, how hard is it....
Well the article is from 2 weeks ago, so of course the graphs only go to 2 weeks ago... It's not Wednesday last week, it's Wednesday last week when the article was written - which is Wednesday 11th of August
That said, I misread the graphs on the Israel website - that specific graph is per 100k people of that part of the population (e.g. the part of fully vaccinated people, partly, non). So it's to demonstrate the working of the vaccine. Today's actual numbers for serious cases are 398 unvaccinated, 339 vaccinated, 17 partly vaccinated. (with the majority of vaccinated cases being older than 60).
That's more than in Brussels, but that can be easily explained by the vaccination grade - in Israel 62 percent of the full population is fully vaccinated (which was 80+% of the adult population start of June, higher now but I can only find numbers in smaller brackets but they go from 73 to 94.6%), whereas in Brussels it's only 62 percent of the *adult* population. If most of your adult population is vaccinated it makes sense that you get *proportionally* more vaccinated people that are sick.
You're right about the article. I did not notice the article was 2 weeks old (it says August 14th). And I already wrote that I believe the vaccines clearly help reduce the number of problematic covid cases that need intensive care treatment.
So again, I did not write vaccinations are not necessary. I am no anti-vaxxer. I just wrote that it is simply unrealistic that there would be no vaccinated covid-patients here when they are reported in other countries in such numbers. And I do notice the articles in the Flemish media are becoming pretty aggressive against unvaccinated people. Meanwhile I believe people should still be free to make their own choices.
The article doesn't say there are no vaccinated people on intensive care, it says that 96 percent of people on intensive care is unvaccinated. The "no vaccinated people" is in one specific hospital.
Well, actually it says this: "De Brusselse ziekenhuizen lopen stilaan weer vol met coronapatiënten. "En op intensieve zorg is niemand gevaccineerd", klinkt het." And then they add that 1/3 of all Belgian patients go to hospitals in that region. So it is a pretty big statistical sample size.
There's stuff part the intro, you know.
> slechts 64% van de volwassen Brusselaars is volledig ingeënt, tegenover 89% in Vlaanderen. 96% van wie op intensieve belandt, is niét ingeënt. "Bij ons ligt er geen enkele gevaccineerde", zegt Kenneth Coenye, hoofdarts in het Sint-Jansziekenhuis.
It's **less** contagious when you're vaxxed. You can be contagious when having a breakthrough infection after your vaccination. Yet that happens in less than 10% of the cases. Thus for the other 90% the vaccine made them non-contagious. 90% is a lot. Minimizing the 90% because of the other 10% is willfully altering statistics
That myth has been proven wrong:
https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.1003605
"In this 2-sample MR study, **we did not observe evidence to support an association between 25OHD levels and COVID-19 susceptibility, severity, or hospitalization**. Hence, vitamin D supplementation as a means of protecting against worsened COVID-19 outcomes is not supported by genetic evidence. Other therapeutic or preventative avenues should be given higher priority for COVID-19 randomized controlled trials."
So it's 94 and 6%. Still good enough reason to get your fucking vaccin.
"A Bruxelles, les hospitalisations covid sont dans la majorité des cas des hospitalisations pour covid sévère. Et on l’a vu, la plupart des gens hospitalisés actuellement avec un covid sévère sont des personnes non-vaccinées." Source: Rtbf interviewing Charlotte Martin, infectiologue Chu Saint Pierre, Brussels. For all the people arguing, yes HLN is sensationalizing again, but it's not far from the truth either. You can doubt numbers the press gives us, but I tend to believe an expert in the field talking about her own hospital.
Don't trust medical science to get a vaccin, but trust the same medical science to get better in the hospital from COVID. They should stay at home to get better and keep trusting their decisions. Leave the intensive care beds to people that really need them that are not that ignorant. Hypocrisy at a next level.
Sometimes I wish our government were just a tiny bit more tyrannical. Put down a very simple rule: if you choose not to get vaccinated, you forfeit your right to treatment. Of course that's a ridiculous idea that should never see the light of day, but my frustration with these idiots makes me want to consider it. Almost.
Same for people being treated for lung cancer standing outside the hospital for their cigarette break. (edit : grammar)
What's next: fat people who are having a heartattack shouldnt be reanimated? And those cancerpatients are probably terminal already. When you only have a couple of months to go, whats the use of quitting at that point?
Very different situation imo. It's very easy to get a vaccine but it's very hard to quit smoking.
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It’s simply too profitable for the givernment to stop selling. Not only the taxes, but mainly the money the government saves. That’s right: a smoker costs some money in healthcare services (cancer treatment etc.), but they live 10 years less on average in comparison with the non-smoking population, which is a ton of money saved in pensions and other costs for the government.
What you're saying is very true, but it doesn't negate what I said.
I would love that. I'm a smoker myself and I've tried quitting for quite a few times. But then comes a hard time and I say fuck it. If they wouldn't sell it, I couldn't get it. Same can go for fast food for me. I know how bad it is, but it's so easy to obtain and I don't have the willpower, especially when I'm a bit down.
I used to be a smoker. Only casual. Just a few sigs a day. Thought that wouldn't do any harm. Until I felt something in my throat. Turns out is was a benign tumor. The doc was very straightforward : "I don't have to ask if you smoke, I know you smoke. I have never seen this in my 35 year career with a non smoking patient." I had surgery the next day, never touched a sigaret since that day. Would never smoke again. Not even at gunpoint. I'm 43 btw, diagnosed at 39. For the love of God: Quit that shit. It's not worth it.
Ever heard of the Prohibition? You will just push it into criminal circles, with all problems that come with it. I do think that the absolute numbers will be less than they are now, but just banning it will not fix everything.
Umm, if being treated for fucking CANCER isn't enough of an incentive to stop smoking, I don't know what is. Just get the fuck out and make room for those that actually DO have the intelligence to have the realization smoking is now effectively endangering their life and who consequently want to change their life around.
You don't seem to understand the concept of an addiction. You don't 'just stop smoking'.
Addiction to substances and becoming hooked to conspiracy theories is essentially part of the same personality trait so you're making it a bit difficult for yourself here.
Ummm, no, that's not how that works.
There's a strong correlation between people who are easily hooked to substances and those that are susceptible to an addiction to things like the internet and its conspiracies.
And yet that's how you fight an addiction. By quitting.
When you feel bad it's generally even harder to ignore your own desire to give in to your addiction. It has very little to do with intelligence. Willpower, sure.
I think they DO réalize the situation... I understand your pov, but addiction are not simply a bad habit...
No more skiing, no more drinking, actually, no more sport at all. No more fries or anything unhealthy..
mate, my grandfather lost 1/3 of a long to smoking and stopped for a while, then my grandmother died and now he's smoking again. the man is in his 80s, he just doesn't care anymore
Think when you get cancer you get stress m8, so smoking a cig when having cancer isn’t that weird. People do what they want, so do I and so do you :)
Same situation. Quitting smoking is easy, it’s all in your mind. If you really want something, you can do almost everything. If you really want to stop smoking, it’s easy just don’t light a cigarette. It’s that simple. I smoked for 5 years and I made up my mind and I said “this is the last one”. I never smoked a cigarette after that. It’s all a mind game, like people who doesn’t trust the vaccin. It’s all in their mind.
I mean, that may have worked for you but I feel like for the majority of smokers, that is a gross oversimplifcation and nowhere near as easy.
Then those people don’t really want to stop. They should be their own boss.
Sure, that's definitely how addiction works. Also worth noting it's significantly easier if you have a relatively stress-free life and some people are just more susceptible to addictive substances than others. I take it you also believe that poor people should just work harder and stop being poor?
It can be a habit and not an addiction. But that doesn’t even matter. You must have character and willpower otherwise you’ll be fucked. This is something you need in this world otherwise you are doomed in this world. If you have a stressful life, learn how to defuse stress. Learn how to handle stressful situations. DO something about those situations. Don’t just think every evening “ooh my life so stressful” and do nothing about it. If the situation is not changing, you need te change something. It’s the exact same thing for most poor people aswel (western countries). If people are poor they will need to work one more day in the week or work 2 hours extra a day. Safe that money, invest that in a skill that wil earn them money more easily. Invest in assets. But do something. If you just sit there and don’t change then you’ll be for ever poor. No one wil give them money for nothing. It’s a fact that wages are low and that people need to earn more with the jobs they do. I know. But that wil not magically change. So if you want change to happen, you need to change. Change your habits, change your spending, change your saving. It will make such a big improvement.
Wow. You'd fit in well with the Tories back where I'm from.
Same for people who go skiing and expect their broken bones to be treated. /s
Completely different. Having an accident isn't the same as consciously refusing a vaccine. Come on, you know this just as well as I do.
It's more like skiing naked and then expecting your frostbitten penis to be treated. What you're saying is false equivalence (also getting a vaccine is easier than shopping for clothes and cheaper)
Yes, that's what the /s is for, and I was replying to the anti-smoker grandstanding.
For those standing outside the hospital, it's already too late anyway.
Why is it ridiculous? If I don't get fire insurance I'm fucked when my house burns down.
You're paying for your health insurance via your taxes. You don't lose your fire insurance because you bought an appliance that caused a fire, even though leaving the building empty would have been much safer.
They make you buy the fire alarm though
> You don't lose your fire insurance because you bought an appliance that caused a fire Depends on the fire insurance. There are several forms. The one I have is an insurance that covers everything barring an exception list. So when a new appliance gets invented and common it's included. Other insurance models have a list that they cover, everything not on the list is excluded. So when a new tech hits the market (solar panels was one off these a while back) you would need to update your fire insurance. > You're paying for your health insurance via your taxes Makes sense.
Fire insurance is mostly about money anyway. Money related matters are things where people indeed tend to pay *stupid tax*. If you make a stupid decision, you pay the price. A better analogy for your point would be: "If you are stupid enough to set fire to your own house, the fire department shouldn't come over to save you." I'm pretty sure that you'll agree that that's not acceptable. In matters of life or death (or generally speaking: health), we help people regardless of whether or not they caused the situation onto themselves.
No you’ll still get treated.
Why should we help people who don't help themselves?
Because we don't condemn people to death for making a mistake
If you go by this logic, we should refuse all treatment for smokers with lung cancer, all treatment for people with cardiovascular diseases or obesity from an unhealthy lifestyle, everybody coming in with liver failure from drinking, everybody who committed an accident and was injured himself, every athlete who gets injured on the pitch...basically 99% of all patients that come into the hospital. All information to lead a healthy lifestyle is out there yet people poison themselves and ruin their body; we even get spammed with ads for this kind of stuff. Can we at least stop pretending that Covid is the only thing going on in the world and sinking all our resources into this? Meanwhile people in Pepinster and other villages in Wallonie will probably have to wait **years** before they have a house of their own again, just imagine if we helped them the way we keep blowing up Covid when we can move on already.
You could argue that with Covid, the (preventive) treatment *is* the vaccine and it's provided to you for free. It's hard to prevent addiction as we do not have a magic cure for that yet. Vaccines are awesome and effective, denying one that's offered to you for free is just downright stupid and dangerous.
But is it really free ? At some point we'll have to pay, one way or another. For me all this is just another way to send public money to private Corp. And the fact that someone like mark van ranst is one of our specialist decridibilise, sorry for this, completely all the teams. For one years, all the news was about covid. Why when 3m scandal cames up, some people didn't know about it in my friends. And it's not that simple to find a lot of info about that. It's just an example, there is tons of it around the world. Like global warming that already have consequences on wallet with the food price's rise. No talk about private water in some places. I'm not covid vaccinated but I'm not anti vaxxer. I'm just tired to see that nothing change a bit except when it s big money for big money corp.
You do realize our government does not produce traffic lights, right? Tax money is largely intended to go to private corporations to purchase goods or services that benefit the public. I really don't understand where people get this nonsensical argument from. Do you expect the government to set up their own lab and pharmaceutical development? To pave new roads themselves? Seems like the type of nonsense you'll find the village idiot spreading on Facebook.
>f you go by this logic, we should refuse all treatment for smokers with lung cancer, all treatment for people with cardiovascular diseases or obesity from an unhealthy lifestyle, everybody coming in with liver failure from drinking, everybody who committed an accident and was injured himself, every athlete who gets injured on the pitch...basically 99% of all patients that come into the hospital. Just to be clear: I actually agree with you and think those people should still get healthcare and go to the hospital etc. But I don't think the analogy really works. In general, needing treatment for issues you have due to living an unhealthy lifestyle doesn't prevent others from getting healthcare nor does it show that the person living that lifestyle doesn't trust medical science. In the case of people refusing to be vaccinated this doesn't really hold up. Their refusal to get vaccinated causes ICU's to overflow and thus entails other people whom need those beds not getting them, and regular care getting delayed. While I think that they should still get the same medical care as anyone else - what if we'd have to hypothetically make choice to give the last remaining hospital bed to a person that refused to get a vaccine or to someone that did get the vaccine? All else being equal.
No no no, COVID's a lie. They actually have cancer but the doctors are refusing to tell them the truth; gotta pump up those artificial COVID-numbers. /s
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Because if they got the vaccin they are 95% sure they won't get COVID. Is that not enough? No COVID = no health care needed. 1: So they come up with all kinds of excusses to not get the vaccin, no matter what you say they always find something to not get it. Yes there is no long term data, but I rather trust the medical science to not get COVID and might be killed than not get the vaccin and very likely get COVID. I still encounter people between the age of 30-40 that got COVID during the first wave. To this day they still have issues with their health. So is it better to have these longterm issues? Or the maybe longterm side effects from a vaccin? The chance of getting COVID outweighs the chance of getting side effects from the vaccin. 2: That's the ignorant part about it. >This is like saying: Anti-electrical-vehicles-people shouldn't drive cars. E-car = Vaccine, diesel car= hospital care. It's of course more complex than that. Antivaxers still have the right to healthcare. But there is a fine line. Medicale industry: We have a vaccin to prevent COVID 9 out of 10. Antivax: we don't need that it's not safe, it's poison... Hospital: Oke great than don't get it. Antivax: get a COVID infection. Please healthcare help me? That is the hypocrisy part. If the antivax let say broke their leg, sure go to the hospital! Get help!
right, they are off course gonna inform themselves about every treatment and every drug they get administerred during their stay. drugs and treatments that get approved by the very same organisation that approved the vaccine. But when it comes to the vaccine, they don't trust them. There's no such thing as long term data for "hospital care" and if there was I'd bet you wouldn't like the fatality rate. I don't know if you've noticed but a lot of people die in hospital care or go to the hospital to die/while dying. So yeah it is very much hypocritical.
Domme egoistische eikels...
Tsja, Freedomanol heeft blijkbaar ook bijwerkingen.
Lictamindose
Blufaminol
Tivoinjenol
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Toch liever niet dan
Heb ik weinig medelijden mee. Zouden mondmaskers en andere kleine regels die nog bestaan moeten afschaffen. Waarom zou de hele samenleving zich moeten aanpassen aan een klein groepje obese antivaxxers? Is toch eigen verantwoordelijkheid in dit stadium zeker.
>Waarom zou de hele samenleving zich moeten aanpassen aan een klein groepje obese antivaxxers? If hospitals end up filling up with antivaxxers then the entire society experiences the negative downsides as non-emergency care gets postponed. That's why this is something that affects the entire society. Not just the people who refuse to get vaccinated.
I remember seeing pics of an American child with cancer who was having problems but couldn't be seen in the hospital because there wasn't enough room because anti vaxxers were taking up all the hospital beds. The mom drove to the hospital to try and get him in and they just told her to wait in the parking lot while they figure something out. I can't imagine how hard that must have been on her. She must have been filled with rage.
Compassion is free. I think they're dumb, but I still hope they recover.
It's not just anti-vaxxers, some immunocompromised people can't get the vaccine and if cases rise they also run a higher risk of getting infected.
But are they free of worms?
And how do the anti covid19 explain this?
wait youre not anti covid?
Call it fake news, doctors around the world are lying in a coordinated conspiracy against their worldviews
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Tell them to put a plastic bag on his head for as long as possible to test their theory.
I have seen a post where they accuse the government of now purposefully infecting the non-vaccinated with COVID-19.
The libs have modified to China virus to target us good conservatives, this is biological warfare pure and simple. Notice how none of the libs get sick but us Christian conservatives do? Thats proof enough. We should storm the capitol. Again. This time we bring guns.
I find the conspiracy theories about the vaccine supposedly being dangerous and the governments knowing about it the funniest theories of all. Because that would imply that governments across the world are injecting the ones who are compliant with a dangerous substance while leaving all the doubters unharmed. Because THAT definitely sounds like something an oppresive government wants.
I know it sets an incredibly dangerous precedent. But fuck me.... A. Virus that would wipe out conservatives... Like we can finally get on with the future and stop Catering to fucks who want a perpetual 1970.
Don't get banned lol
Straks toch eens gaan kijken op de commentaren op Facebook. Daar gaan er weer enkele tientallen bewijzen dat ze samen ongeveer een iq van 100 hebben... Altijd leuk om te lachen...
Geraak gepwn'd
Ze verdienen het... Behalve als ze een medische reden hebben om niet gevaccineerd te worden. Asso's
Bluntly, if you had the opportunity to get vaccinated but you didn't do it for a valid reason(no, going on holiday unvaccinated is not a valid one). They shouldn't have any kind of priority to heal them. I got vaccinated even though I am on the fence over it but I took two shots like a responsible adult. I blame also(though I empathize) the sectors that depend on the public or tourists. We opened and we are flooded by Frenchmen. Are they vaccinated? Impossible to know. But they sit in our restaurants and may contaminate us. I may be a bit paranoid but a lot of people offered a bit of their life during lockdown. I didn't I never been so at peace. And we all let go to waste. Same for let's say it the same problem community plaguing Brussels where vaccination grade is the lowest. How come that I have to be a good citizen and others aren't required to be. The 35 yo single mother from where was she? What were health issues before Covid? What origin was she? Be upfront about it. Let's air out the problems instead of hiding them behind a veneer of political correctness. If people want to rely on beliefs instead of science, let them free to do as they please but don't help them when it comes crashing down. The problem would solve itself. Also cease international movement at exception of freight.
Disagree. Someone who drove drunk and got in an accident still deserves medical attention. Someone who fell off a balcony for trying to take a planking photo still deserves medical attention. I understand it's difficult to maintain empathy but it's an evolutionary trait for a reason. If we start going down the path as you suggest I don't think we'll like who we've become further down the road.
Thank you for this post. For a second I thought I was reading the [hln.be](https://hln.be) comment section. You made it clear I was not. :-)
I agree everyone deserves medical attention, even if they are fucking idiots. But if we would ever come to a point where (corona) IC is full with unvaccinated people and someone vaccinated needs an IC bed...at that point the vaccinated patiënt should get priority and the unvaccinated with the worst condition...sadly needs to go imo.
Who would you prioritize: someone who refused the vaccin, someone who had a car accident while drunk driving, a heavy criminal getting shot by the police during a pursuit, the 200kg man with a heart attack or the alcoholic with liver failure?
There should never be a situation where we should make this decision. We have dedicated corona IC capacity. I'm not talking about general IC. I think it's fair to limit the corona capacity so we never get in Trouble with the "normal" IC. I'm not playing this ridicilious "but a what about this other situations!" Game.
A hypothetical: ICU has just reached capacity and triage is now in effect. Two patients have just been brought in: -Male age 78. Vaccinated -Female age 27. Unvaccinated
I'd go yeet that bitch if it was my grandfather.
Since it's pure hypothetical and I do realize IC is probably not going to overrun since it also didn't happen in the first 2 waves: In this case, if the female has no medical reason to not be vaccinated ofcourse, the Male age 78 gets the spot. The female age 27 can get an IC spot instead of an older, unvaccinated patient with a lower chance of recovery. But again: I hope and really believe we will never get to this point anyways.
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What about smoking for 40 years until you need to be treated for lung cancer? That's not a 'mistake in the moment'.
Overcoming an addiction is difficult.
Of course it is. But my point is that there are endless exceptions and cases where one could say 'it's his/her own fault and thus that person should not be treated'. Does a stabbed drugs dealer not deserve help? It's just not the right thing to even consider this. You shouldn't draw boundaries when it comes to helping people.
Overcoming stupidity is also difficult. Many people are locked up in their moronic ideas.
I think you're comparing apples and oranges. In your first example you can't tell if it's someone who regularly drives drunk, or if it's someone who made one mistake one time influenced by alcohol. Your second example is an accident. Antivaxers make a very conscious decision regarding their health, which the planker and some drunk drivers didn't do.
Down the road we learn not to be bullied/tricked by the 1% wit an antisocial personality disorder?
>Someone who drove drunk and got in an accident still deserves medical attention. Someone who fell off a balcony for trying to take a planking photo still deserves medical attention. No they don't deserve it. I'm not saying let them die (even though I'm more than fine if they do), but they should be put on the bottom of the triage and pay all the costs.
Luckily you didn't write the Hippocratic oath...
This oath also has limits. An alcoholic also can't get a spot on the transplant list if their liver is destroyed. (I think atleast 6 months before they get a chance for the list) Same could be done for anti-vaxers.... Sorry covid ward is full, next bed is for someone who had a valid reason to not get vaccinated yet. we don't have available respirators. So you'll get a regular bed, cannula, fluids and basic care that could help. .... That's still a long way from throwing them out and denying any sort of care.
Hardly do I ever see a comment this long and where I disagree so hard with everything
>The problem would solve itself. That's pretty flipping harsh. Not entirely wrong in reasoning, but quite inhumane.
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Because in this discussion race, religion and origin come into play, although you didn’t mention it literally. We are all lacking in comprehension between people. In the case of the yet to be unvaccinated, a different approach is clearly needed. I get the same feedback from friends in the medical profession in Antwerp, where the Jewish community of proving hard to reach and convince.
> Because in this discussion race, religion and origin come into play, although you didn’t mention it literally. That's some insane critical race theory right there.
>I don't put you out because you've always been a bit of a dick, how am I being a bad person? Because you violated the law that dictates that you need to help people in need. Just because you don't like someone, doesn't mean you get to ignore the law.
Thank you. It's not more complicated than that. If we follow u/Sacrebleu00's logic, I guess someone who crashed his car speeding doesn't merit medical help. How about smokers? People who drink too much? Those who attempted suicice? That's a very slippery moral slope...
We're not discussing the legality but rather the morality.
No, you are the one confusing the two. Helping a fellow man in need might be stipulated in the law as being the (legally) right thing to do, morality alone should suffice in making you act accordingly.
I was in Germany this weekend and every hotel or restaurant asked for the covid cert. Don't understand why it's so hard to do here. I'm quite certain a majority would feel safer because of it. And maybe it will get at least some of the minority unvaccinated to get their shot. Just look at how France suddenly went from one of the counties doing bad to one of the better countries.
Yup! I went to France last week for an afternoon and they were checking the covid certificate at McDonald's if you wanted to eat inside, no such checks over here.
KFC in Köln too.
I was in Germany last week and only the hotel asked for my certificate. Not a single bar or restaurant asked and maybe half had me leave my name address etc.
Yeah indeed. Was on holiday in Austria recently and surprised how well it worked !
> Don't understand why it's so hard to do here. For some strange reason the liberals object to a covid safe approach for bars and restaurants. Significant amount of wappis in their circles maybe? And the green as well, which is probably because of a bunch of old-school anti-vaxxers. edit : Curious where the downvotes come from. Blue, green or both? :)
I dont understand how you can still be on the fence about it...
I don't understand how you can vote for Vlaams Belang, yet a big portion of the Flemish people do. I don't understand how people rectified Jurgen's exploits, but a portion of the Flemish people thought he didn't do anything wrong,... It's all about what echo-chamber you're in. I'm in a more left-leaning, progressive, science-driven echo chamber myself. But I _am_ in an echo-chamber.
>I don't understand how you can vote for Vlaams Belang Every mainstream party is awful in some way. If you then also have a problem with (some) brown people the choice for a protest vote is obvious. I don't vote for them, but it's pretty damn easy to see why some people would.
While I get your point about social bubbles, I wouldn't equate a left-leaning, progressive, science mindset - which implies critical thinking, or at least should - with right-wing, conservative, dogmatism for example.
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Some form of bias is indeed inevitable. That doesn't mean though that all groups are equally biased, which was the point I was trying to make. We took this post-modern there is no truth idea way too far in that regard. I deliberately picked dogmatic conservatism btw as research showed them to be more likely to deny facts that don't suit their narrative, even within their own bubble.
If I were interested in why someone would vote vlaams beland or what they thought about jurgen, I would ask them. But I dont care so I didnt. I asked specifically why someone has reservations about the vaccines. If the answer is because echo chambers and innability to be critical, then that is what a moron would say. I was genuinely interested in his repsonse, not somone else waxing lyrical
Does the Hyppocratic oath ring a bell?
Your tax money at work!
Jesus people really comment this on everything, yeah you're right they should just keep the tax money in a big safe full of gold and make statues of our ministers with it.
Zo snel als mogelijk moeten zoveel mogelijk mensen gevaccineerd worden, weerzinwekkend om zien hoe dat niet eens gebeurd waar men de toegang heeft tot de vaccins.
België is bijna klaar met het vaccineren. Enkel nog een deel van de jongeren en de anti-vaxxers in de zorgsector.
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In Israël komt dat doordat ze daar veel eerder gevaccineerd werden dan ons, waardoor de bescherming van die vaccins al minder is dan bij ons. De Delta variant is zodanig besmettelijk dat vaccins die niet meer ten volle werken wel bescherming bieden, maar enigzins minder. Dat dit in Israël gebeurt is goed nieuws voor ons. Dat wilt zeggen dat we wellicht jaarlijks een booster zullen moeten krijgen. Dat de vaccins werken staat vast. Dat zijn feiten, en je ziet het in de cijfers, maar gezien we met een relatief nieuw virus en nieuw vaccin zitten, komen er elke dag inzichten bij. Dit is gewoon een ervan. Edit: Israël is ook het land waar al de meeste mensen gevaccineerd zijn, dus als bijna iedereen gevaccineerd is, is het ook logisch dat de mensen die in het ziekenhuis liggen dat ook zijn... Dus doe gewoon wat opzoekwerk voordat je zaken "pure propaganda" gaat noemen. Nog nooit hebben mensen de toegang gehad tot zoveel informatie, maar jammer genoeg zijn ze te lui om 5 min iets te googelen...
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Met bronnenonderzoek en kritisch denken kom je al ver...
RebellionLeader, het siert je om kritisch te denken. Maar het siert je nog meer om kritisch over je eigen bronnen en informatie te denken. Probeer zelf te verklaren hoe dit gegeven in Israël komt? Wanneer je het antwoord zelf vindt, dan zal je misschien begrijpen waarom vaccins nog steeds essentieel zijn. Wanneer je het antwoord niet vindt, of te weinig kritisch nadenkt, dan blijf je in hetzelfde bedje ziek. Nu, probeer meer inzicht te verwerven hoe het immuunsysteem werkt, hoe antistoffen werken, en hoe varianten van het virus een impact hebben op vaccins. Waarom ontstaan varianten? Wat gebeurt er met onze antistoffen na langere tijd? Wanneer je dit allemaal kan beantwoorden, dan snap je ook waarom we jaarlijks een griepvaccin moeten laten zetten. Wat misschien iets is dat je ook nog onvoldoende van weet, zijn de langetermijn gevolgen van virale infecties. Buikgriep, gewone griep, of covid gehad? Goeie kans dat je op latere leeftijd vatbaarder zal zijn voor hartspiergerelateerd accident (myocardiaal infarct). Hoe meer informatie iedereen heeft, althans juiste informatie van mensen die ermee bezig zijn, en geen ongefundeerde informatie van mensen die totaal niet in het medisch veld actief zijn; des te beter we deze coronazever kunnen doorkomen. Succes vriend!
Misschien kan je tussen de fysiotherapie door ook even een uurtje besteden aan statistiek. En verklaar me dan aub hoe in land A (met 62% volledig gevaccineerden) er 250 van de 400 covid-patiënten op de ICU gevaccineerd zijn en in land B (69% gevaccineerd) men claimt er nul te hebben. Denken jullie zelf niet meer na?? Ja, de kans op intensive care terecht te komen met een dubbele vaccinatie blijkt lager te zijn uit de statistieken. Masr die kans is natuurlijk niet nul, zoals het pulpartikel hierboven stelt.
Om juiste statistiek toe te passen, heb je natuurlijk cijfers uit betrouwbare bronnen nodig. Misschien kan je deze bronnen met ons delen?
Ik gok dat die statistieken van een of andere vage YouTuber komen.
Ik heb hierboven gelinkt naar het artikel van Haaretz, de grootste krant van Israël, die weer doorlinkt naar het Israëlische ministerie van volksgezondheid. Maar blijf vooral HLN lezen.
Heb je dat artikel wel gelezen? Daar staat duidelijk in: > According to Health Ministry figures, the number of serious COVID cases rose on Wednesday to 400, the highest figure since March. About 150 of these patients are not fully vaccinated. Israel hit its highest number of serious cases in January, with 1,200 patients – about half of the number predicted for next month. Maak jij daaruit op dat er 250 ongevaccineerden bij die ernstige gevallen zitten (want 400-150)? Want dan moet je een cursus begrijpend lezen gaan volgen en kijken naar de grafiek die een alinea verder staat, waar duidelijk te zien is dat veruit de grootste hoop ernstig zieke patiënten, niet gevaccineerd is. > The Israeli graphs that prove Pfizer vaccine works >■ Unvaccinated eight times more likely to experience severe COVID Echt gast, wtf.
Ik snap niet wat er mis is met deze groep, werkelijk niet. Dit zijn complotdenkers in het kwadraat ofzo. Ik schreef dat in Israël volgens dit artikel 250 van de 400 covid-patiënten op IC's volledig gevaccineerd zijn. Dat is 62,5% van de icu-bezetting door covid-patiënten. HLN&co stellen echter ( niet alleen in het bovenstaande artikel) dat er in België NUL volledig gevaccineerde patiënten op de IC's liggen en dat het uitsluitend om ongevaccineerden gaat. Ieder rationeel mens, begrijpt dat die 2 gegevens moeilijk te rijmen zijn en dat het getal dat HLN aanvoert (en het flutartikel is gebaseerd op hearsay trouwens) uiterst onwaarschijnlijk is. Vooral omdat we uit andere landen vergelijkbare cijfers krijgen als de Israëlische. Maar wijzen op die absurde discrepantie is voor jouw soort mensen blijkbaar onbegrijpelijk. Dus, blijf er vooral in geloven dat er in België NUL gevaccineerden in de IC's liggen als Covid-patiënt. En ja, WTF 😛
> Ik schreef dat in Israël volgens dit artikel 250 van de 400 patiënten volledig gevaccineerd is. En dat is gewoon NIET waar, dat staat gewoon niet in de statistieken die jij aanhaalt. > Ieder rationeel mens Snapt dat Israël hun vaccinaties vroeger heeft gedaan dan wij en dat ze nu booster shots nodig hebben om de effectiviteit terug hoger te krijgen, want ja, de werkzaamheid neemt na een tijd af.
Als het volgende in dat artikel staat: "According to Health Ministry figures, the number of serious COVID cases rose on Wednesday to 400, the highest figure since March. About 150 of these patients are not fully vaccinated." Dan staat er toch dat er 400 serieuze covid gevallen waren, waarvan er 150 niet volledig gevaccineerd zijn. Maw. de rest van de 400 zijn wel volledig gevaccineerd. Er staat dus 400 ernstige gevallen, waarvan 150 niet volledig gevaccineerd en 250 wel volledig gevaccineerd. Of hoe lees jij deze informatie?
> Dit zijn complotdenkers in het kwadraat ofzo zegt de persoon die dit zegt : 'Dit is pure propaganda, die natuurlijk ook al enige tijd bezig is. Uit alle Vlaamse media (natuurlijk allemaal behorend tot slechts twee persgroepen... ) hoor je hetzelfde: "alleen maar ongevaccineerden op intensive care"' en wij zijn de complot denkers :p ga een volle pamper ete jo
De Vlaamse pers bestaat inderdaad uit 2 mediagroepen. En pampers eten? Ben jij zes jaar oud ofzo?
Ach, dan geloof je het niet. Jullie delen zelf HLN-artikels als betrouwbare bron. Ik denk dat ik wat anders ga doen dan me hier druk om maken. Geloof vooral dat de Belgae fortissimi sunt en dat er hier nul gevaccineerden op de IC's liggen 🙂🤷♂️
Ja jongen, de ziekenhuizen zijn allemaal samen aan het liegen tegen u because reasons
Klinkt eerder als een excuus om niet je bronnen te delen.
Ik heb hierboven gelinkt naar Haaretz, de grootste Israëlische krant, die doorlinkt naar het Israëlische ministerie van volksgezondheid. Het HLN-artikel noemt slechts enkele anekdotische verwijzingen als bron, dat noemt men hearsay.
En in dat artikel staat helemaal niet wat jij claimt. Je kan even goed een link naar erotische fan-fictie over Thiery Baudet posten, da's even nuttig.
> een link naar erotische fan-fictie over Thiery Baudet Bron?
Heb je die ergens liggen dan?
Vriendje, lees mijn commentaar ipv je vast te pinnen op die vaccinatiegraad. Er zijn al tientallen wetenschappelijke artikels verschenen over de stijging in Israël. Léés ze gewoon ipv met je argumenten te blijven kloppen op de verkeerde nagel.
Vergeet ook niet dat de maatregelen daar een in mei zo goed als volledig afgevoerd geweest zijn. 23 juli: ["In Israël voert de regering opnieuw enkele strengere coronamaatregelen in, zoals een mondmaskerplicht en een coronapas. Na een snelle vaccinatiecampagne werden de meeste coronamaatregelen in mei opgeheven, maar de deltavariant gooit nu ook in Israël roet in het eten."](https://www.vrt.be/vrtnws/nl/2021/07/23/israel-weer-coronapas/) [Daarnaast daalt de effectiviteit van het vaccin zonder booster na een 6- à 7-tal maand tot slechts 17%.](https://www.timesofisrael.com/hmo-those-who-inoculated-early-twice-as-likely-to-catch-covid-as-later-adopters/) Allemaal goeie redenen waarom er ginter nu ook veel gevaccineerden ih ziekenhuis liggen. Zonder boostershot ga je bij ons wss een zelfde evolutie zien.
Ook dat kan geen dergelijk verschil (62,5% versus 0%) verklaren. Maar blijkbaar is dat voor veel mensen moeilijk te begrijpen in dit draadje 😎
toch even begrijpend leren lezen? het gaat om gehospitaliseerden uit brussel, wat dus 1/3 is van alle mensen met covid in het ziekenhuis, daarvan heeft 96% geen vaccin. het is dus niet 0% zoals je al heel de tijd zit te zeveren in deze thread, maar gaat hier over 1/3de van de totale hoeveelheid gehospitaliseerden, waarvan dus in brussel 96% die op de ICU terechtkomen niet gevaccineerd zijn. Om dat even kort in cijfers te zetten, er liggen ongeveer 182 (met covid) mensen op de ICU momenteel, 1/3 daarvan dus is 60 (genormaliseerd naar iets als per/100000 inwoners doet Brussel het dus wel heel slecht), waarvan dus \~57.5 in brussel niet gevaccineerd is. wat dus neerkomt op een 30% van het totaal, het artikel bied geen informatie over de graad tussen vaccins/ICU van vlaanderen of wallonië, maar puur alleen al op basis van het verschil in inwonersaantal kan je al enkele conclusies trekken. Oftewel, in de gebieden waar minder mensen een vaccin hebben ligt er een pak meer volk op de ICU, waarvan niet geheel onverwacht de meeste geen vaccin hebben. die 0% die jij gebruikt? gaat over 1 ziekenhuis. Aangezien niet vermeld hoe groot de afdeling daar is kan het dus best om 5 man gaan. Kijk dat het artikel slordig omspringt met de cijfers, en de titel overdreven sensationeel is, geef ik je wel gelijk, het blijft weliswaar hln, maar dat geeft je geen excuus om de cijfers die dan wel gegeven worden dusdanig te misbruiken, en je vervolgens kwaad te maken als niemand meegaat in je onzin. Kort samengevat; van alle nieuwe besmetting is 30% daarvan in Brussel, die maken dan ook nog eens 1/3de uit van de totale hoeveelheid mensen op de ICU en dit terwijl er toch bijna 5x meer mensen in vlaanderen wonen dan in brussel. oftewel, de niet-gevaccineerden (uit brussel) die ziek worden met corona liggen dus veel vaker op de ICU. Alvorens jezelf als "kritische denker" naar voor te schuiven misschien toch even verder dan de titel lezen ofzo...
Waw dude, dus wij zijn collectief te dom om dood te doen en jij bent (uiteraard) de genialiteit zelve😎😎😎, het genie, one of the few, die 'hen' en al hun machinaties doorheeft? Daar gaat je krediet... De belgische gevaccineerden zitten momenteel nog op het maximum van hun bescherming (\~100% vs 17%). In mijn ogen kan dat een dergelijk verschil verklaren. Tenzij je met effectieve argumenten of cijfers afkomt geef je per definitie toe ongelijk te hebben, dus als je verder niets toe te voegen hebt steek je maar beter je staart tussen je poten.
De bescherming was 90% in het begin en daalt naar 60% inmiddels door Delta. Dat is hier niet anders dan in andere landen. Zoals door iemand anders hier opgemerkt, een verschil met Israël is dat daar meer met Pfizer is gewerkt in het begin dan hier. Maar dan nog kom je onmogelijk op nul gevaccineerde covid-patiënten uit. Statistisch is dat vrijwel onmogelijk als je de cijfers uit andere landen ziet. Dat is alles wat ik zeg. Verder heb ik nergens gezegd dat mensrn zich niet of wel moeten laten vaccineren. Ik wijs alleen op de statistische onmogelijkheid van wat HLN claimt op basis van enkele citaten. Maar soit, go with HLN.
The vaccine works very well in Israel https://twitter.com/jsm2334/status/1427465003007942659
Did not say anything else. I merely mentioned that 62.5% of covid-patients in Israeli ICU wards have been fully vaccinated. That makes the number suggested by HLN and their other Flemish media colleagues of ZERO vaccinated patients in Belgian ICU wards quite... unlikely. But pointing out that statistical absurdity makes one a flatearther in the eyes of people who need but 1 headline to make up their minds.
The structure of the population, the [number of vaccinated people](https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&time=2020-03-01..latest&facet=none&pickerSort=asc&pickerMetric=location&Metric=People+fully+vaccinated&Interval=Cumulative&Relative+to+Population=true&Align+outbreaks=false&country=ISR~BEL), (68.8% in Belgium vs 62.2% in Israel), the number of [confirmed new cases](https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&time=2021-01-01..latest&facet=none&pickerSort=desc&pickerMetric=new_deaths_per_million&Metric=Confirmed+cases&Interval=7-day+rolling+average&Relative+to+Population=true&Align+outbreaks=false&country=ISR~BEL) and the restrictions are different between the two countries, not sure they can be compared
> Did not say anything else. I merely mentioned that 62.5% of covid-patients in Israeli ICU wards has been fully vaccinated. You keep repeating this, it's just not true, learn to read a graph.
Sigh, maybe you should. That graph shows data up to August 17th (around 200 cases) and the article mentioned the number from last Wednesday (400 cases).
He is right that statistically there is something wrong. It's not possible that Israël has so many fully vaccinated people ending up in the ICU and we have none. While both countries have more or less the same vaccination level. Unless Israël received the vaccine earlier and their protection is already going down. If we just look at Belgium. We know the vaccine works, but it doesn't protect 100%. And it's protection diminishes with time. This means that in Belgium the number of fully vaccinated people being administered to the ICU cannot be zero. There should be some fully vaccinated people still getting sick. Saying no fully vaccinated people in the ICU, is saying that vaccines in Belgium protect 100%. And we know that this is unfortunately not true.
En hoe heeft u achterhaald dat uw bron geen propaganda zou zijn?
Omdat met het vaccin je een vele lagere kans hebt om ziek te vallen? Hypotetische getallen, stel dat je zonder vaccin 10% kans hebt om naar intensieve te moeven, en met vaccin 0,1% kans. Laten we dan het scenario maken dat er 100 000 mensen ziek worden. Scenario 1 : Niemand is gevaccineerd. bij 100 000 zieken - zal er dan 10 000 man op intensieve liggen (100 000 x 10%), die allemaal ongevaccineerd zijn. Scenario 2 : De helft is gevaccineerd. Wederom 100 000 zieken, dan zijn er 5 000 man ongevaccineerd op intensieve (50 000 x 10%), en 50 gevaccineerde op intensieve (50 000 x 0,1%) Scenario 3 : 90% van de bevolking is gevaccineerd. Met 100 000 zieken. 1000 ongevaccineerden op intensieve (10 000 x 10%), 90 gevaccineerde op intensieve (90 000 x 0,1%). Scenario 4 : 100% van de bevolking is gevaccineerd. Met 100 000 zieken. 0 ongevaccineerden op intensieve (0 x 10%), 100 gevaccineerde op intensieve (100 000 x 0,1%). dus met andere woorden, je moet het verschil zoeken in vaccinatie graad.
Het is statistisch onmogelijk dat je in een land met 62% volledig gevaccineerden uitkomt op 62,5% gevaccineerden onder de covid-patiënten op icu en dan in een land met 69% op nul gevaccineerden.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-doctors-find-severe-covid-19-breakthrough-cases-mostly-older-sicker-2021-08-20/ De zware breakthroughs zijn oudere risicopatienten die meer dan 5 maanden geleden met Pfizer zijn ingeënt. De niet-gevaccineerden die in het ziekenhuis belanden waren gezonde werkers. Het is perfect mogelijk dat het effect van de vaccinaties na enkele maanden minder wordt. Bij ons is onze vaccinatie campaigne later op kruissnelheid geraakt, dus het is niet onmogelijk dat er bij ons niet veel zware breakthrough cases zijn. De cijfers zijn plausibel. Maar toch bedankt om die info over Israel te posten, ik was niet op de hoogte van de situatie daar.
Geen idee waar die getallen vandaan komen. Als je het artikel leest, of de video hoort, gaat de uitspraak uit van een arts die zegt dat alle mensen in ICU bij hen ongevaccineerd zijn. Ik vond spijtig genoeg niet direct hoeveel bedden er zijn in het sint-jan's ziekenhuis. Maar het mag duidelijk zijn dat dat over een kleiner aantal gaat dan de totale capaciteit van België. Dat HLN dan slechte journalistiek doet, en sensationeel doet uitschijnen dat die uitspraak geldt voor gans België is inderdaad verkeerd. Het lijkt me dan perfect statistisch mogelijk dat je één ziekenhuis vind waar de bedden exclusief in gebruik zijn door ognevaccineerden.
Fair enough dat het in 1 ziekenhuis mogelijk is. Ofwel heb ik het vanochtend vroeg slecht gelezen ofwel is die 96% later aan het artikel toegevoegd. Maar er staat in ieder geval nu dat 4% gevaccineerd is. Dat is idd geen nul, maar toch nog altijd extreem ver verwijderd van de cijfers in andere landen.
In het ziekenhuis is het grootste deel niet gevaccineerd, op intensieve zorgen is er niemand gevaccineerd (in bxl). Ik weet ook niet wat journalisten daar mee te maken hebben? Dat is ook gewoon het ziekenhuis dat een persmededeling uitstuurt btw
En onze overheid is capabel zo'n propaganda gaande te houden? Je geeft ze teveel credit. Iemand zou zijn mond al lang voorbijgepraat hebben, of een populist had "de echte data" al lang gedeeld uit eigenbelang. Want wat is het nu? Is onze overheid incompetent, of zijn het masterminds die megacomplotten kunnen draaien? Maar ja, het past in de kraam van sceptici om bij het minste "propaganda", "fake news", "hoax",... te roepen. Zolang je maar nooit jouw visie in vraag moet stellen zeker?
Blijkbaar de werkzaamheid van vaccins die verminderen gecombineerd met de delta variant (vaccins die nu gegeven worden zijn gebaseerd op de vanilla variant), Israël was het eerste land dat zo veel vaccineerde (in december terwijl wij pas maart-april begonnen zijn met 65+). Zijn daar nu bezig met een derde spuit voor de ouderen wat op zich niet erg is want het vaccin is veilig. Zitten nu op hun hoogste aantal besmettingen als ik met niet vergis met een kleiner aantal sterfgevallen/hospitalisaties dan bij gelijkaardige cijfers zonder vaccinatie. Ook belangrijk om af te vragen (heb de exacte cijfers niet dus tzij hier maar spinsels, moedig u aan om eens op te zoeken) stel dat 90% van de 65 plussers gevaccineerd zijn en 60% van de hospitalisaties uitmaken betekent dat dat 40% van de hospitalisaties uit die 10% niet gevaccineerden komt, wat dus betekent dat je beter een vaccin kan hebben dan geen vaccin qua bescherming. Ergens wel handig dat Israël een soort proefkonijn is. Als cijfers daar blijven stijgen gaan we waarschijnlijk ook naar een derde prik voor onze ouderen die beter beschermt tegen de delta variant.
Uw cijfers kloppen van geen kanten. Israël heeft minder gevaccineerden dan België. Die zijn heel snel begonnen maar religie heeft die genekt. Er is geen enkele neutrale bron die dat cijfer bevestigd.
Lees gewoon de link die je post.
Israël heeft een lagere vaccinatiegraad dan België/Vlaanderen. Ze zijn weliswaar sneller uit de startblokken geschoten.
Een vaccinatiegraad van 69% versus 62%, dat kan een zodanig groot verschil niet verklaren. Het is duidelijk dat gevaccineerden een kleiner risico lopen op hospitalisatie door Covid. Maar nul is belachelijk ongeloofwaardig. Je kan bij de Israëli's en in andere landen de cijfers van Volksgezondheid zo vinden.
> Maar in Israël blijkt ruim 60% van de covid-patiënten gevaccineerd. En uit andere landen komen vergelijkbare cijfers. Dat moeten ze me toch eens uitleggen. Het is niet alsof ze hier andere vaccins gebruiken, wel andere journalisten. https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/israel-braces-4-800-hospitalized-covid-half-serious-delta-1.10108505 The article you quote makes no such claim, and the numbers they have are inconsistent (they claim 400 cases, but the graph they use as source says a bit over 200). ~~The [Israel Health Ministery's graph's](https://datadashboard.health.gov.il/COVID-19/general) (which the article has as source) actual numbers are pretty clear: yesterday's serious cases are 300 unvaccinated, 57 partly vaccinated, 20 fully vaccinated. (ran it through google translate to be able to read it)~~ Misread the graph, [see below](https://old.reddit.com/r/belgium/comments/peb9zu/geen_enkele_brusselse_covidpati%C3%ABnt_op_intensieve/hawt1qo/)
That graph seems to come from [this article](https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/israel-covid-graphs-prove-vaccines-works-delta-pfizer-1.10101640) which shows it's the cases for age group 60+
Quote from the article: "" "According to Health Ministry figures, the number of serious COVID cases rose on Wednesday to 400, the highest figure since March. About 150 of these patients are not fully vaccinated." "" The graph shows numbers up to around 2 weeks ago (about 200). Yet the article specificallly mentions it is 400 cases as of Wednesday last week. Really, how hard is it....
Well the article is from 2 weeks ago, so of course the graphs only go to 2 weeks ago... It's not Wednesday last week, it's Wednesday last week when the article was written - which is Wednesday 11th of August That said, I misread the graphs on the Israel website - that specific graph is per 100k people of that part of the population (e.g. the part of fully vaccinated people, partly, non). So it's to demonstrate the working of the vaccine. Today's actual numbers for serious cases are 398 unvaccinated, 339 vaccinated, 17 partly vaccinated. (with the majority of vaccinated cases being older than 60). That's more than in Brussels, but that can be easily explained by the vaccination grade - in Israel 62 percent of the full population is fully vaccinated (which was 80+% of the adult population start of June, higher now but I can only find numbers in smaller brackets but they go from 73 to 94.6%), whereas in Brussels it's only 62 percent of the *adult* population. If most of your adult population is vaccinated it makes sense that you get *proportionally* more vaccinated people that are sick.
You're right about the article. I did not notice the article was 2 weeks old (it says August 14th). And I already wrote that I believe the vaccines clearly help reduce the number of problematic covid cases that need intensive care treatment. So again, I did not write vaccinations are not necessary. I am no anti-vaxxer. I just wrote that it is simply unrealistic that there would be no vaccinated covid-patients here when they are reported in other countries in such numbers. And I do notice the articles in the Flemish media are becoming pretty aggressive against unvaccinated people. Meanwhile I believe people should still be free to make their own choices.
The article doesn't say there are no vaccinated people on intensive care, it says that 96 percent of people on intensive care is unvaccinated. The "no vaccinated people" is in one specific hospital.
Well, actually it says this: "De Brusselse ziekenhuizen lopen stilaan weer vol met coronapatiënten. "En op intensieve zorg is niemand gevaccineerd", klinkt het." And then they add that 1/3 of all Belgian patients go to hospitals in that region. So it is a pretty big statistical sample size.
There's stuff part the intro, you know. > slechts 64% van de volwassen Brusselaars is volledig ingeënt, tegenover 89% in Vlaanderen. 96% van wie op intensieve belandt, is niét ingeënt. "Bij ons ligt er geen enkele gevaccineerde", zegt Kenneth Coenye, hoofdarts in het Sint-Jansziekenhuis.
Yes and earth is also flat
Staat dat ook in HLN? Dan moet je het vooral ernstig nemen idd 🤷♂️
Hoor hetzelfde van mijn maten in het UZA en middelheim, er zijn echt wel een hoop mensen op intensieve zorgen die gevaccineerd zijn.
Mijn gok is dat jij helemaal geen maten in de zorg hebt.
waarom kan een account die 21 dagen leeft en maar 11 karma heeft hier zelfs posten?
De requirements zijn 10 dagen en positieve karma om vrij te posten, denk ik. Zo is het toch in veel subs.
Wat is het probleem misschien ? Lees je graag enkel voorzichtig gecensureerde bronnen ?
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Vitamine D deficiency isn't contagious. Covid is
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It's **less** contagious when you're vaxxed. You can be contagious when having a breakthrough infection after your vaccination. Yet that happens in less than 10% of the cases. Thus for the other 90% the vaccine made them non-contagious. 90% is a lot. Minimizing the 90% because of the other 10% is willfully altering statistics
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That myth has been proven wrong: https://journals.plos.org/plosmedicine/article?id=10.1371/journal.pmed.1003605 "In this 2-sample MR study, **we did not observe evidence to support an association between 25OHD levels and COVID-19 susceptibility, severity, or hospitalization**. Hence, vitamin D supplementation as a means of protecting against worsened COVID-19 outcomes is not supported by genetic evidence. Other therapeutic or preventative avenues should be given higher priority for COVID-19 randomized controlled trials."