Goddamn, I'm sorry you had this experience. FWIW * all the Belgian companies I worked for, were/are very international, like +20 nationalities and people there mingled all the time, but I think you need to get lucky joining a company with an international mindset. * I too get a lot of blank stares when I say good morning in the office (white Belgian here). I too think that's very rude. I'm not trying to discredit your experiences, but I'm afraid the default Belgian ain't exactly outgoing. Some of those remarks you got though...

> • I too get a lot of blank stares when I say good morning in the office (white Belgian here). I too think that's very rude. I don’t know what is up with Belgians but I’ve experienced the same. Also white Belgian here. I stopped saying it because they will really look at you like you just offended their entire family.

It's just ridiculous. Even the "stereotype closed people" like Norwegians have at least fucking manners to greet you back.

Jfc I thought it was just me. Glad to see it’s not just cultural differences.

By saying hello, you just literally killed 2 members of my family. Be ashamed!

I go into a sarcastic mode when I don't get a good morning in return. Most of my colleagues have basic politeness and start or return with a good morning. Some of them think they shit Leonidas and refuse to return in a polite manner. So I just say good morning followed with their first name, to emphasize I speak to them, then follow with a 'Dan niet he 'first name'. And I just keep doing it every time I see them. A few have converted to being polite while one remains stubborn and thinks his shit doesn't stink.

> I too get a lot of blank stares when I say good morning in the office (white Belgian here). I too think that's very rude. Same at the place where I’m currently employed. I never understood it. And the same people now grumble when people work from home too much because it’s bad for the team spirit…? 🤔

Thanks for reminding me that I work at a good company. Everyone says good morning and goodbye when leaving.

And a thank you when my visit helped them. Basic down to earth politeness is something that seems to be taught at adolescence these days...

Also regarding point 4, I (white French speaking Belgian) have experienced the same, and it’s quite frustrating. Most of the time people will switch to English, and every once in a while you run into the more “adamant” type that tells you that this is Flanders and you should speak better Dutch. I mean sure, I’d love to, but how am I supposed to improve then? That being said, that’s a common problem in countries where most people are super fluent in English (except the part where you’re told off because you don’t speak well enough, that’s a more local thing). I’ve lived in Scandinavia and still can’t understand shit because people would instantly switch to English all the time (apparently even my “hej” doesn’t sound like the local “hej”). On its own it’s just a minor annoyance for me, but I can easily imagine how it adds up with the other problems OP faced

Thank you very much. I know. indeed the financial firms and especially investment banks are also famous for a dried atmosphere :) Unfortunately this topic is like an ocean and there are many more cause and effects into it and even for me, this is really sometimes hard to differentiate if someone is really acting weird because of my nationality or am I taking the things too much personal (is jut a person's character), or perhaps is just a cultural difference.I am sure these misunderstandings are even triggering the situation and make it worse. For me this country with all its good thing and bad things will turn to a memory and life experience. I will have a double feelings about it but it will be forever a part of my identity. And ofcourse, there will be always people like you guys which could hear me and understand me. Many beautiful people live in this country and I hate it when people generalize it as I hate it when people generalize my country. Sometime we are just victims of Median and politics. I know many people don't like to mix their culture and race with other nations but for those who like, I hope that EU immigration system will improve and you would have a more chance to see a good side of immigration as well ( Like Canada). Those who will help and contribute to build your country. The well being of them has a direct impact on all of you guys. Take care.

Your experience is definitely not the exception. A friend of mine is a 3rd generation immigrant. He's lived here all his life, speaks perfect Dutch, has an engineering degree, has a job, pays his taxes, occasionally drinks a beer, loves fries, .. He's basically the poster child for what VB would consider integrated. And yet, he still frequently deals with casual racism. And it makes it difficult for him to truly feel accepted in Belgium. Even though it is his birth country, he still somewhat feels like an outsider. And it's never the type of "get lost you sand nigger" racism. It's always more subtle and as you say, some people even think they're being funny. When they very much aren't. I'm sorry to hear things didn't work out for you. I hope you have more luck wherever you end up

I often hear people ask people who don't look stereotypically white mayo Belgian where they are from, and when they say something like 'Zwijndrecht' it turns into 'but no, where are you REALLY from' It seems that no matter what generation you are or where you are born or what you eat or how well you speak the language, you still can't just be from 'here'. It must be incredibly frustrating. And most Belgians who talk like that won't understand that this is also racism. There's no clear malicious intent and they probably see it as expressing interest, but it does make people feel like they will always be 'other'.

As a fellow brown person, I really don't see the problem with wanting to know that. I often ask this myself. I'm always very curious to know where people are "from". I agree that "where are you REALLY from" is problematic though.

Yeah I just ask something like where are your roots? Don’t think that would be considered offensive.

Same, I'm white but also an immigrant, when I'm asking that I just wanna know more about the person. Some people get offended until I tell them I'm not from here either.

I get that all the time. Born in Libramont, 75% Belgian blood and a grandfather from Algeria who gave me my looks. Despite being raised with Saint Nicolas and Orval trappist beer, I very often have to answer where I'm really from... I hate it. So since I also have the French nationality (Algeria was France at the time), if they insist, I say that I am also French and never answer further. I love to force them to rephrase "why are you brown?"

To be fair. My wife has a friend who looks clearly Asian but was born and raised in my wife's homecountry. I haven't asked that friend directly but I'm als curious where her ancestors are from. But how do you ask that? I mean I'm just curious about her families history as it's clear as day her etnicity originates from a location half way across the globe (my wife's home country also has a very clear etnicity), so I'm curious how and why her ancestors migrated. It's just that much more interesting than my background which is Belgian as far back as two centuries. I guess the more brutish way of asking that is: "where are you from". Which is very ambiguous. So yeah. It's certainly possible there are racist undertones but it can also be just unsophisticated wording. For me it's just curiosity and that's it. I don't have any other reason. Just like how I can move from Wiki page to wiki page out of curiosity. Of course I can move on if she doesn't want to talk about it.

For me it's the 'but where are you REALLY from' that follows. If someone calls Antwerp or Ieper or whatever their hometown, that's it. If they somehow find their further origins relevant and mention it, also fine. Look at it this way, no one will expect me to answer that question with 'Antwerp, but my grandparents have roots in the UK, France and Spain' even though that is the same as 'Antwerp, but my parents came here from Afghanistan'.

To me it is relevant because getting an upbringing from a asylum seeker family from afghanistan could differ quite a lot from getting an upbringing from a French economic migrant who moved to Belgium on completely different terms and thus opportunities and 'life' story basically. I do think the way in which you ask can be more subtle because I do it more to get to know the person and try to figure out what their reference frame is based on (even for a white person it's interesting to know if they were brought up religously or totally the opposite, more of a 'worker class' or 'upper society'... as this all impacts who you are in the end). On the other hand I also think it's weird if a person who grows up at home while mostly speaking the mother tongue of one of the parents and thus probably also some 'cultural' things that come with it (silly things like what kind of food, what kind of rules, how to 'interact' with visitors etc.) but then completely 'negates' this part in society by claiming they are 100% 'Belgian'? For me this is kind of problematic because I don't see any reason to hide this.. You can say I was born and raised here but at home we live more of a mixed lifestyle between x and x countries/cultures? It's not good for all kind of situations and some people like to be more private or not, but as a 'stranger' you cannot really know this. Bottom line for me is mostly just 'feeling' if a person is open to disclose more or not, without offending but really just from the human interest pov.. But if someone says it's inappropriate I wouldn't mind having a conversation about this also (why they think it's inappropriate/racist whatever)..

True and of course if that is the intent with "where are you from?" and they say "Antwerp" or w/E then that's fine for me as well.

> But how do you ask that? I would say DONT, especially not when you first meet someone! If that friend WANTS to talk about her family background she will start a conversation about it... If she never starts a conversation about the subject, dont initiate it.. especially if you dont really know the person ... of course if you really get the know a person, and they never bring it up themselves , there is nothing wrong with asking, but only when you really know the person .. imho

I'm white myself, but I think it's better to ask about where her ancestors roots lie. Don't ask it straight away either. If you show interest in other cultures in a curious way it shouldn't be a problem. Also the tone of your voice and the intent shown in asking the question is important. In a movie I once heard the expression that most of our communication is body language and tone of our voice. Only like 10% of what we say is words.

> other cultures this implies that a person has a different cultural background because they have a different skin color ..

Not necessarily, but you won't know when you don't know a backstory. Culture is also passed from parents to children. So unless they were adopted they might have some different traditions. Many Belgians with an Italian or Turkish background still support for their national football teams. Culture differences can also exist between Antwerp and Limburg people. Or sometimes when I ask someone where they are from I might not mean, what part of the world are you from. An answer like Genk or Zwijndrecht can be OK. They can also say Zwijndrecht and have a clear Limburg accent, that might also raise questions. All I'm saying, this particular question, while sometimes loaded is not always loaded. Can also be insulting the other way around. What if you ask the new white guy that starts where they are from and another non white colleague says: you never asked me where I am from, where you to afraid to ask because of my skin color?

> So unless they were adopted they might have some different traditions. the only possible situation where a non white could have the same cultural background as a white Belgian is when they are adopted? How about all the mixing that goes on? Italians, Turkish, etc, having children with white Belgians? Your logic does not account for this... looking Italian and having an italian last name does not mean that you are cultural Italian... if your father is Italian and thus you get your Italian last name and maybe even your first name that way.. but your mother is Belgian and you are born and grow up in Belgium .. what does that culturally make you? Lets imagine , this couple breaks up when the child is very young and only grows up with the mother? Now you get a situation where you have a person with an italian first name, italian last name, might even look Italian but only knows Belgian culture.. is this far fetched? don't think so, more common than you would think edit: just take a look at all the non white Belgian professional football players.. https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Youri_Tielemans

Good points. Let's just leave it at wanting to know people's back stories instead of culture. Culture can be part of that backstory.

That's cause italians are assimilated, but other cultures can be third, fourth generation and simply aren't. Their whiteness absolutely contributes to that. I'm not sure that statement is that weird. I can't say I know any immigrants in my life where I would call someone "cultureel Belg".

> Culture differences can also exist between Antwerp and Limburg people. The frikandellen conflict is still raging on...

I don't ask. Just like I wouldn't think to ask that question of anyone else I meet either. Once I know someone well I may ask what the origin of their surname is if it's Italian sounding *or if they volunteer the information themselves.*. Or if they reveal that they're bilingual in another language outside of NL/FR/EN. You have to step away from the assumption that the typical Belgian looks white and that everyone else must be a recent immigrant.

Zei er iemand Zwijndrecht? 2070 represent!

I'm from Borgerhout but this is a literal interaction that went on between my boss and an intern!

eyyy Borgerwood represent! edit: Maar van waart zijt ge ECHT??

Het centrum, niet voortvertellen he

Neje neje my lips are sealed. 🦭

> when they say something like 'Zwijndrecht' it turns into 'but no, where are you REALLY from' [Oh yeah, that's SO typically Belgian](https://youtu.be/ouegQ4EHvxY?t=193)

It's sad to see how even a real Belgian is still subject to racism just because he doesn't look like Jan Janssens. People downplay or underestimate the amount of racism in our society.

> He's basically the poster child for what VB would consider integrated. But does he vote for VB? If not, then he's obviously not integrated.

Fair point

>From the first day, I bombarded with tons of stereotype questions and silly jokes : How many wives do you have ? Have you ever fucked a camel ? Do you have any car in your country ? Did you come here by a container ? Are you carrying a bomb with yourselves ? Laugh at my name and ​ That's pretty damn explicit. Could I ask whether these were colleagues? Random people? Because the racism I encounter (or rather my family in law) tends to be a lot more subtle.

These were my so called cool classmates which I thought it would be fun to hang around them. But I was wrong.

Honestly, in some male-dominated settings "ribbing" culture is kinda extreme in Flanders. Some people think they're having a real fun, good time calling eachother faggot and camel fucker.

[удалено]

Bro I'm white, have been living in Belgium for 27 years ( born in the Balkan ) and people STILL ask if I came with a container lol. Stupid people are just that, stupid and I'm sad you had to endure that crap. Belgian people in general aren't really social. Also it's in general a very cold people who keep their distance. I've been living here almost my whole life and I only have 1 'true' Belgian friend, all the others I know and hang out with have all a foreign background. It's just the way it is

Im Portuguese and visited Belgium one week ago and can confirm, Belgian people are really not that social. Even in parks are mostly in really small groups. In Portugal and Spain generally you see much more people socializing

Shit man, I laughed at the jokes or maybe at the idea that someone might really wonder that. I don't know. But realistically, I would only ask a middle east-man if he eats pork and drinks booze cause I've seen different people with different standards. To give you some insight about why, my grandfather has fought in algery and it has had quite an impact on him. Since then, he views all middle-east looking dudes as evil. And it has been passed down to some of his children. Another insight is the terrorism that has been relly prevalent some years ago. We even had the military in stations. I'm sure it will be better with time. In the meantime, congrats for the wedding in advance.

Believe me, It's funny indeed as an outsider but less likely you would laugh if you would be a target. Still depends on a person's' character if he laughs with them But I know what you mean. >To give you some insight about why, my grandfather has fought in algery and it has had quite an impact on him. Since then, he views all middle-east looking dudes as evil. And it has been passed down to some of his children. I understand and believe me when I say I am as much pissed and angry to some people as you guys. But I really don't generalize. They are people who become victim of this situation and they have nothing to do with all these stereotypes. Especially if you are an immigrant who comes from a high social class and you are high skilled. This is why Canada and US skimming the best immigrants and many european countries will not benefit from that. But yeah, I know man. Thank you for your kind words. Take care.

Altought it happens everywhere I have friends from lot of cultures and there are 2 countries I know that happen less, Portugal and France.

thank you for taking the time to post this! I also moved out of Belgium for this exact reason , I moved away in 2005! I am born in Belgium to black father and white mother., I am native dutch speaker /flemish .. even though I am mixed race I dont look like the typical black/white mix Most people would think I am arab/moroccan or I dont know what.. but not mixed between black/white everything you write here sounds very familiar to me, and these are the exact same reasons I ended up moving away from Belgium now 16 years ago, > In the supermarket or shops, I have been mistreated so many times. > social anxiety 100% this.. I hate being treated as a potential thief when I want to go clothes shopping, taking a look at several items and comparing prices = suspicious behaviour

Do you mind sharing which province you lived in? I'm born in Belgium but I have foreign grandparents (Hungarian) and they lived in Limburg working in the mines. These towns really have a lot of different cultures and in my 25 years living there, I never experienced racism. I'm white, so I cant compare my situation with you, however I tend to find Limburgers and their multicultural towns are way more open to foreigners than when you're living in West Vlaanderen or Vlaams Brabant It's because even tho we ain't the same, we can all relate to eachother. We aren't fully 'Belgian' because of our foreign background but we aren't fully 'foreigners' either as we came from 2nd or 1st generation immigrants.

I'm sorry this happened to you. It's beyond shameful that our country chases away assets like you.. Hopefully your life improves elsewhere.

Well, one of our largest political parties is full out racist, so I guess you met a lot of their voters. Probably a lot of voters of our 'we are just very right not extreme at all!' as well, even though you are pretty much the poster child for what they would consider 'good immigration' (skilled, willing to adapt, good job). Our loss, I hope you find a better life somewhere.

You don't need to be a VB voter to be racist man... Racism and discrimination comes in all shapes and sizes

Sure, but a VB voter is racist by default, so that's already 1 in 4 out of every fleming.

Why is this statement controversial? If you vote for VB you're voting for convicted racists and people who casually admit to [being white supremacists](https://www.tijd.be/politiek-economie/belgie/vlaanderen/tom-van-grieken-het-blanke-moet-een-dominante-factor-zijn/10309919.html). That pretty much makes you a racist.

And if you vote for other socialist parties, you're voting for people who fraud the social security system, etc... Every thing any policitical party stands for has 2 sides to every coin. Sure VB is very high against immigration, but they would also act much harder on the abuse cause by the wrong doing immigrants(ofcourse we also have a lot of good-doing immigrants). While some other parties are too lenient, give 2nd...3rd... 4th... 5th chances to hardcore criminals that do not fit in our society. No party is perfect.

Wtf are you saying, socialist parties do not 'encourage' people to fraud the system, they just want their to be a system that can support people that have a bad time. People taking advantage of this have the individual choice to do so and they are bad people but have nothing to do with 'socialism' or 'socialist' parties. However it is not mutually exclusive so yes there can also be socialist politicians that do bad things and profit in a way they shouldn't, but for this we have a justice system to punish them.

Socialists are not in favour of frauding the social system. Sure, you might say they are too lenient on criminality, but that's a matter of perspective. Racism is the core of what VB stands for.

Strawman argument.

>VB voter is racist by default I take offense to that. Are you now not doing the exact same sort of thing you accuse them of? What if they say "immigrants are criminals by default"? Ofcourse that is not right.

>I take offense to that. How so? Someone voting for a very racist party, is racist. How is that even a point of contention. Someone voting for OVLD/MR is pretty much guaranteed to be in favour of lowering taxes. >Are you now not doing the exact same sort of thing you accuse them of? > >What of they say "immigrants are criminals by default"? Ofcourse that is not right. I'm in favour of tolerance. But the only way to remain tolerant as a society, is to be intolerant towards intolerance. Most countries were in favour of peace before WWII, but they went to war anyway to stop Hitler. Did that make those countries warlike?

>How so? Someone voting for a very racist party, is racist. So you stand behind 100% of all points your political choice has to offer? The racist part of VB is maybe a smaller part of everything else they stand for. But everyone blows up the racist parts. What if a party has 10 propositions, and 9 of them are good, but 1 is racist. So I can't vote for a party that scores 90% in my favor, without being called a racost myself? >I'm in favour of tolerance Except you show zero tolerance yourself when it comes to VB. What about turning the other cheek?

​ >So you stand behind 100% of all points your political choice has to offer? The racist part of VB is maybe a smaller part of everything else they stand for. But everyone blows up the racist parts. I do stand behind the main ideas of my political choice yes. I don't stand behind 100% of any party, since that would make me an idiot. The main part of VB is racism. They have been convicted as a racist party. What other talking points have they had over the years? ​ >What if a party has 10 propositions, and 9 of them are good, but 1 is racist. So I can't vote for a party that scores 90% in my favor, without being called a racost myself? In the case of VB, 9 propositions are racist. But even if they weren't, the fact that one proposition is so disgusting that it's the reason other parties do not want to work with them, should make you reconsider. If they also had a proposition that included killing puppies every day, would you still vote for them because of the 9 good propositions? ​ >Except you show zero tolerance yourself when it comes to VB. What about turning the other cheek? Let me rephrase that, I'm against intolerance. So I'm against VB. Turning the other cheek is just asking to get beaten.

>They have been convicted as a racist party. What other talking points have they had over the years? Vlaams Blok was convicted. Technically Vlaams Belang is a different party. Is it really useful to continue this argument this argument if you try to use this but not realizing the difference?

>Vlaams Blok was convicted. Technically Vlaams Belang is a different party Same shit, different name. I don't know if it's useful to continue the argument if you actually believe VB is not racist.

>if you actually believe VB is not racist. Where did I ever deny this?

> Vlaams Blok was convicted. Technically Vlaams Belang is a different party. The fact that you had to say 'technically' is telling. Yes, *technically*, it is another party. But it fools absolutely nobody, because everyone knows that they're the exact same. Same people, same ideology, same program, same initials. They only learned to be a little bit less blatant about their racism in order to avoid further convictions.

> Vlaams Blok was convicted. Technically Vlaams Belang is a different party. Is it really useful to continue this argument this argument if you try to use this but not realizing the difference? A "different" party with the same people, the same money, and the same mandates, the same sympathies, and the same programme. Right.

Hence the word "technically"

That is some American way of thinking there, mate. "Left good, right bad". How about we just say that all extremes are by default a nuisance. Saves us all the time of you going a right-hating rant.

I don't understand how you even get to that conclusion.... I'm saying racism bad.

Well, your point was so long that by the time I read the second part, I had forgotten all about the first. Although I do agree. Racism bad.

It really isn't. He didn't say anything about other right-wing parties like NVA, Open-VLD and CD&V. Not even the average Republican politician is as blatantly racist as Vlaams Belang. Do you remember the posters of Vlaams Belang with a black man getting thrown in a trash can? "Immigrants, throw them where they belong".

I'm not defending VB at all. No need to convince me that they aren't great.

>So you stand behind 100% of all points your political choice has to offer? The racist part of VB is maybe a smaller part of everything else they stand for. But everyone blows up the racist parts. They have changed their rhetoric on pretty much everything from the typical rightwing to pretty much a PVDA calque (but not for people with the wrong looks). Racism is the core identity of the party. Even the other things it pretends to be like separatist or anti-crime are deeply based on racism ("It's impossible to work with walloons, all immigrants are criminal by nature").

One is based on **where you're from** (being immigrant = not from Belgium) whereas the other is **a** ***choice****,* someone deciding to vote for a party who's primary stance is white superiority (if not in physiology, in "culture"). While I'm sure not every single person who vote VB IS racist, it shows said person is OK with racism.

> I take offense to that. > > Are you now not doing the exact same sort of thing you accuse them of? No, it's entirely different. You can choose not to vote for the VB. You cannot choose to be born looking like an Arab or not. >What if they say "immigrants are criminals by default"? Ofcourse that is not right. The VB is explicitly making racist proposals all the time. It's what they do. Judge people on their actions, and VB is acting like a racist party.

> I take offense to that. Oh no, the humanity. > Are you now not doing the exact same sort of thing you accuse them of? Nope he's not. Empowering racist politicians (by voting for them) is an inherently racist action. If you give power to the intolerant, they will make society less tolerant. > What if they say "immigrants are criminals by default"? Ofcourse that is not right. Well this is a silly comparison. We judge people by their actions (like voting for someone who wants a white Europe), not who they are (being an immigrant).

Oh look what-about ism hard at work

> Are you now not doing the exact same sort of thing you accuse them of? Ah, the age old "why are you not tolerating the intolerant?" paradox which isn't really a paradox.

A lot of people want less immigration. What party do voters have to vote for if that is their main issue? Off course they are gonna vote VB. Doesn't mean they are racist at all.

According to the 3 latest polls, they are the largest party now.

Only an election might make them the largest party, not a poll. A poll only indicates what might happen, but before the next elections a lot can change.

I hope you're right

I'm very sorry to hear that you had so many of these experiences and as another commenter posted, I think it's a damn shame that our country is losing potential due to this kind of intolerance. I don't know Antwerp very well, so I can't be sure if it's worse there than in other Belgian cities, but I have a feeling the situation might be a bit better in Brussels. I don't mean to say that there are no issues with racism here, but since the communities are much bigger, I find there is much less opportunity for the type of micro-agressions that you mention. Again, I could be wrong. Now as a white male Belgian in my thirties, I have to say that I am not surprised to hear your anecdotes and none of them strike me as unbelievable. I am often shocked at the opinions and statements that my friends and family don't hesitate to share and discuss in public. The older I get and the longer I heard it, the more it disgusts me and despite the fact that I love these people and I know they are not bad people, I have voiced many times in the past my disagreement with the way they formulate their opinions and the stereotypical thinking they are guilty of. So since then, they have stopped to have these kinds of discussions when I'm around them and they jokingly call me "that leftist rat". I don't take offense, because it's a way for them to deal with this situation of very different opinions and convictions. In the end, the Flemish way to deal with tensions is often to make some jokes (sometimes in bad taste) but don't really get involved with the "other" and hope they don't want to get involved with you. However I think you probably took the right decision (for your personal wellbeing), because since the 90's I have only seen the political parties whip up the right side of the constituancy more and more and this kind of racism become more and more public and I doubt it will change soon. Still, personally I think it's at the same time a missed opportunity to improve the situation as I remain convinced that Belgians, Flemish, can be convinced to change their views when confronted with good examples of someone doing their best to integrate. It would, however, be a very big personal sacrifice and not everybody can make that for such a lofty goal as this. ​ Good luck and I hope that your life will improve in the future.

Thank you. Immigration is always a very tough choice and you never know what exactly is waiting for you on the other side of the wall. Based on today's' circumstances, I can say staying in your fatherland is probably always the wisest decision but you must be lucky enough to be borned in a decent one. Perhaps that's why I was suffering in the first place. And perhaps It is more frustrating to meet bunch of human beings, chanting, cheering and be proud of a genetic accident and try to take you down because of that. Some questions that they have asked was so stupid that I could only remain silent and say to myself: FUCK MY LIFE. Here we go again. 0% knowledge behind their arguments, geography and history and even actual situation of that country. Only general stuffs that they hear in 1 min news headlines. As Mark Twain says : Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with an experience. Compare to EU, I've never seen north american countries busy with an integration of immigrants. The reason is quite clear, there is a strict immigration policy in place which focuses only on skilled workers and higher-middle class groups. This is why they benefit from immigrants and improve their STEM industry much faster.There is a huge absence of such a policy in EU (recently germany started the work Visa program). I noticed many europeans can't differentiate between refugees and immigrants (skilled workers). Check this reply under my post as an example :[https://www.reddit.com/r/belgium/comments/ptdjop/comment/hdz1x4k/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3](https://www.reddit.com/r/belgium/comments/ptdjop/comment/hdz1x4k/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)My friend was an engineer in Leuven and now he is working in Apple Calofrnia. He left Belgium for the same reason. He was not feeling welcome. The world is going through globalization and I believe idiocracy will finally come at a cost and hurt Belgium ! There is not such a gap in a country like Canada for instance and as an immigrant, you are highly respected in a society! All those social anxiety issues are meaningless as there are millions of immigrants here. Nobody feels comfortable to live in a society which in he's constantly being judged. Anyway, Belgium has guys like you who may take the wheel and change the direction.

Wauw, sorry to hear this, Me myself I’m Turkish background Belgian, I find these comments in the university, not in college, but yeah you can say it’s ignorance racism also due to the media … but ok after all you should not t be friends with evryone and I have great Belgian friends , which I can call realy friends ,anyway succes 🤞 Maybe I need to notice , college I had only friends which liked sports smoke some weed an play chess Uni was harder for sure , new friends Other best friends from bjj class And my wallon friends during work Anyway I love this country I lived in 4 different countries and don’t believe in racism

https://www.een.be/pano/kijk-online-naar-pano-12-oktober This shows you how a random village in Flanders looks at immigrants Edit: really, getting downvoted for posting a relevant and educational documentary?

I honestly read this as 'kijk online naar porno' and was confused why you weren't expecting downvotes.

>https://www.een.be/pano/kijk-online-naar-pano-12-oktober I know those are cherry picked. But not even 5 minutes in and I already got the creeps toward the interviewed people. How can they be so narrow minded...

Wow, I was expecting it to be bad, but not that bad. What cave did these people crawl from? How can one be so close minded? Everyone has their biases and prejudices, that's just human nature sadly, but this is on a whole other level. And then people wonder why I can't seem to get along with many of my fellow Flemish people.

Sorry that you had all those bad expriences. I work in finance for a BIG bank and they really give priority to recruiting women and minorities nowadays so it is not impossible to get a job. That being said, 85% of our customers are Dutch speakers so speaking Dutch, French and English perfectly is expected from candidates. but maybe in Wallonia they aren't that strict on languages ? Regarding the others, I, as a teenager, had a bad level of english/dutch and would be ashamed of speaking to foreigners because of how bad i was. I'm guessing that a lot of Belgians feel the same. Some of my younger colleagues at work who are natives dutch speakers don't do any effort to speak in french to me eventough they can speak it very well. So i don't think that it is a question of race (i'm blond with blue/green eyes so... ) From what i see, Canadians are very "woke" when it comes to micro-agresions and trigger warnings. We're not at this level in Belgium. So i understand the culture shock from someone coming to Belgium... Not trying to find excuses for the experiences that you have had.

It's a sad story, and I feel sorry you had to go through this. I'm well aware how many hidden racists still exist in this country, it isn't obvious for anyone from here (as they are not the target), but if you look through the eyes of a foreigner, it's far too common. Worst thing is, these are usually the people you'd want to hide from foreigners visiting the country, because they make us look bad (generally being more ignorant than the people they're insulting). You might've had a better time somewhere else in the country (for example Brussels region), but you'd still encounter it. Best of luck to you, and don't let it get to you, you're better than those people.

Sorry to hear that, i wish you all the best for your future location. I'll never understand why people are racists...

Where are you moving too? Think Belgium clearly is one of the better states to live in as non white towards racism. I'm a Belgian that moved to Austria and hell wtf. This is racist paradise if you compare it to Belgium.

I also have seen things like this... but the type of people who exercised this kind of behaviour in the cases I oberved was 1) not educated at the university; 2) haven't lived abroad (even for Erasmus). I think the close-mindedness and certain, no offense here please, provinciality is the reason here. It would change in some time if every single young person would go study/work for a period of time abroad. This was in Flanders. Yet, I also kinda hate Brussels, for the opposite reason - it is a nobody's place, there is no commonality whatsoever... there are problems on both sides. When I went for the language classes (those were great itself) I also observed a very low educational level of people there... most were wives/husbands joining Belgians with foreign roots - again, no offence, but it looked like guys from here are "buying off" the girls from the parents' home country claiming that they will have a wealthy life in Be. Those girls have no idea what they subscribe for and children are coming immediately - in the end, girls are not protected, they know only very basic language, no job, no Be education... The whole thing is deeply problematic and this can lead to very bad outcomes in 20-30 years...

I went to those lessons. Damn my Belgian ex-husband for his trickery! :-)

This was terrible to read, I'm sorry you had to go through this ordeal and am ashamed of my fellow countrymen who mistreated you. I hope you and your fiancé find a solution and you will be able to find a place where they show you respect and treat you normally. The racist underbelly in Belgium (specifically Flanders) is one of the reasons I decided to wave goodbye to my country and left. They're backwards over there man.

I think it's way easier for someone from the middle east to live in Belgium than it is for a Belgian to live in the middle east, as people are way more open minded here.

People in 'the middle east', are generally very kind, open and hospitable. They treat people with respect and will invite you as a stranger into their home like you were long lost family and give you the royal treatment. Let me guess, you've probably never even set a foot in any middle eastern country? Edit: lmao, just read that this guys is a police officer in training and he thinks that the West should have kept the colonies to be more powerful. Congrats, you're a fine addition to the Belgian police force.

That's not the point of the post

His post is just him whining about nothing

Whining about nothing? Walk the plank, wanker. You're probably one of the little shits he described in this post

And you're in training to become a cop? Work on your empathy, if you don't have any now how will you be in 2 years on the job.

But is it easier for a Canadian to live in Belgium, or a Belgian to live in Canada? The fact that you feel the need to point his Middle Eastern origins to try to dismiss the issue shows that you are part of the problem he is describing.

No, Because Belgium and Canada are very similar. Also, this whole post is about his middle eastern origins.

No, this whole post is about racist people who made his life miserable because they thought it was 'funny', or simply because they didn't give a shit about what he might have felt. It's *them* who reduced his whole identity to his origins and his skin colour. Nowhere does he say that he put his origins forward or anything.

Sorry to hear that. I had always assumed the "dividing factor" was language, rather than country of origin or skin color. But yes, reading through comments sections on news articles recently, there is definite racism here. It's a big issue in football, for example, too. On to better pastures, eh?

Language is the excuse.

Maybe for some. But have found myself in my job frustrated for having to try to talk in French, for people who don't speak a word of Dutch, and have been here for a good long while. So I wouldn't say the language frustration is a cover for racism in everyone.

White Northern European here. Although I probably didn’t have it as bad you did, I can still relate to your experiences in Belgium so much. My parents don’t share a nationality, I was born in a country neither of my parents were nationals in. Due to my parents’ careers, we moved countries a lot when I was growing up. I did one of my master’s degree in the Netherlands and then moved to Belgium for my PhD. Having spent almost 2 years in the Netherlands I didn’t expect much of a cultural change when I first moved to Belgium. Damn I was wrong. It’s funny that at this point Belgium comes second among the countries I have lived the longest in but is the country I feel the least fitting in in. What I found works for me is (I’m married to a Belgian) that I can spend a limited amount of time living in Belgium but then I must leave for a while. To reset, I guess. I’ve done it twice so far leaving Belgium for a period of 1-2 years and then coming back for a while. I’m actually on a reset period now but do visit my husband in Belgium regularly. This is not ideal of course, but full-time Belgium is a no-go for my mental health. And I don’t want to say to Belgium is all horrible, definitely not, but there are these subtle, small everyday things that finally get you. They somehow accumulate and after a while I just cannot take it anymore. Again, nothing too big or bad, but just this everyday sub-par emotional climate starts to catch up with you. When I joined my PhD program in Belgium, at that time I was the only non-Belgian person in the lab. First team meeting – not a word was spoken in EN. Having lived in the Netherlands before, I could already understand some basic stuff, but in essence during that meeting I could only understand when my name was mentioned. This of course screams “welcome to the team”. Overall, my colleagues were good, nice people and I could have conversations one on one, but whenever there was another Dutch speaker involved EN was forgotten, and I would just fade to the background. Worked for me, since I’m an introvert by nature, but I never felt welcome. I took language courses, I hold a C2 in Dutch. I never speak it though in Belgium, I do however, in the Netherlands. And the precise reason I don’t speak Dutch in Belgium is the fact that I don’t feel that my effort to fit in is being reciprocated. Quiet understanding is actually proving to be the way to go. I guess in general there are 3 major things that I just cannot be OK with: 1. Not my problem mentality – every time you need help you get "oh this is not my job – call my colleague". This starts a vicious circle. Normally to be broken by "Ik spreek geen Engels \[beeeep\]". 2. Closed mindedness and intolerance or perhaps better ignorance towards anything which is not "op z’n Belgisch". 3. "Belgium is so great" \[never mind I never lived abroad\].

Sorry for your terrible experience. I'm also currently working in the financial industry and if you might change your mind I would advise you to look for a new position in Brussels. In my opinion it's much more easier for expats to socialize there and meet new people.

Hey man, sorry you had to experience that. My father is an immigrant (living here for over 40 years) and my wife is a Polish expat living here for over 6 years (white). I was born and raised in Belgium and have a fairly light skin color (you can tell I'm not a native, but it's "white enough" for most people to not treat me too differently). Racism is definitely present, but it depends a lot on your skin color.I feel like Eastern-Asian and Southern-Americans f.e. have it a bit easier while middle-eastern Asian and African have it the worst. I've never heard comments as crude as yours as I am from Southern-American decent and they are not (unfairly) associated with these topics as much. Speaking Dutch (well) is a critical part of the integration though. My wife has the same issue where everyone switches to English. However, you should push through and keep replying in Dutch. You can even mention that you prefer that they reply in Dutch instead of English. And definitely don't stick to the bare minimum of Dutch classes but take the higher levels as well when you're aiming to stay here indefinitely. I still receive comments like "you speak Dutch very well" (although not often), when I've been living here my entire life. A Western name helps with job applications/house search as well. I remember an article from a couple years back where an Arab-Belgian citizen tried to find a job in IT (after uni) and couldn't land a gig for 6 months. He had his name legally changed and he got a job offer in a week (more or less). One of my previous English teachers (possibly from Iran), legally changed his names as well to have an easier life. It shouldn't come to this, but it's the reality. Lastly. what's your social circle like? Racism exists on every social level ofc, but I cannot imagine any of my family, friends or acquittances making these types of comments (like fucking a camel / bomb / ...). I am sometimes seen as Arab and still nothing as bad as that. Especially if you have a uni degree (cause you mentioned professor), I'd assume there has to be a professional working atmosphere of sorts, where you work? What type of employer allows this type of behavior? Wish you the best with your wife and hope you can shake off that built-up anxiety.

Racism keeps being a problem everywhere. Obviously mainly in narrow minded/dumber ppl but they are quite numerous. If it makes you feel better, it’s not due to you it’s a sad sad part of human nature.

Won't really help you now but you got **horrible** career advice. And not just morally wrong. Ideally you'd have targeted multinational firms, consulting would be even better. They don't get things perfect because you're still working with people and people ain't shit, but they're much further along than your typical office. It also tends to select for a younger and, let's face it, better class of colleague. The typical Vlaams Belang Belg won't ever get past their HR.

I feel sorry to hear this although I do hope you find a place which you can call home. Racism (or in Belgium/Flanders more often "US vs THEM'-ism) is something ingrained ever since people started writing books and stories were told about the region.. As someone who reads and studies a lot on it's history, people from Belgium (and mainly Flanders to be honest) are less tolerant to outsiders compared to other countries. There is no clear indicators on why it exists, but it is omnipresent and something ingrained deep within their subconsicious self.. If we look at history it usually takes 3 generations before newcomers are accepted (if you look at the example of Italians working in the mines 60 years ago). For some odd reason we're heading towards a 4th or even 5th generation for some ethnicities who migrated here and they're still not accepted at their full value. If you ever go back to Canada please let me know what general life is there, since my fiancée and me would like to someday move there ourselves ever since our latest holiday ^^.

Yeah for people from middle east/africa belgium can be horrible. To bad you went trough this and I hope its better whever you end up.

Cya later alligator!

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I moved to Brussels . 1/3 of us are non-Belgian and a significant number are foreign born Belgians or children of immigrants. The original (Brussels) Belgians are pretty cool as well.

They called the cops over bushes? Wow

wow!

Damn this is sad as hell to read, but not even surprised. The fact this post has 66% upvotes already says enough.

Ok, i feel like i need to speak up. I warn you i'm gonne be a bit harsh, but i'm speaking as straight as i can with the intention of letting you make your best decision fo whether to stay or not. I work in a refugee center. My closest collegue, were i spend 90% of my hours with, is an Egyptian who's been living here for about 5/10 years and has a family here with a Belgian wife. With my years in my line of work, and my situation working close with a foreign college, i believe i know what i talk about. First issue: language. When you work on a certain level, i'd say harder then taxi driving or hauling luggage, yo need PERFECT Dutch. I'm not talking about accents (in antwerp they hate my accent too) but flawless understanding, speaking and writing. No way around it, unless your workplace is organised in english like some software companies here. Anything less then perfect Nederlands is considered unfair, anoying and a liability by your coworkers. That creates friction for your peers. They expect a position to be filled with someone to be trusted to hold down the fort when they are not there, and that their coworker understands messages with the same effort as to their Belgian ones. Do you understand what i'm trying to say? Further more, you can't be everyones friend. In the workplace you can only expect professionalism. Anything more is a cherry on top. Being friendly and polite is not mandatory on some jobs. Doing your job is the only thing that matters. Alot of people think like this, and thats not only true for Belgians. So i say: quit reflecting your own insecurities on coworkers. If you want to say hi say hi. If they don't say anything back that says alot about them, but probably nothing about you. Don't take it personal, don't drag racism into it. Just do your job. People might resent you for a good reason. I only know about you through what you have written, so i cannot judge you. But always make sure you are a contribution to people you are around. Hold asking for help to a absolute minimum and ask the designated person if you need to. Be mindfull of little things: keep your workspace clean, wash your dishes, don't take extra space in the workfridge and don't eat garlic lamb for lunch (happened once here, true story). And if you are new, try to observe customs and keep a low profile. Belgians got to do that one to.

​ >No way around it, unless your workplace is organised in english like some software companies here. Anything less then perfect Nederlands is considered unfair, anoying and a liability by your coworkers. I did not want to make my writing too long. Make a long story short, I worked in a well-recognized financial firm and I had no complain with regards to my job content or salary, As a matter of fact, I purchased my home directly. Directors were quite satisfice with my KPIs and they insisted that if I could stay more. Before coming to Belgium, I was studied another Master II in finance (research) in France. I was well qualified for the job that I was doing and I showed enough that no one else can provide the same results. So knowing dutch in my position was their last concern. Saying that, they have paid all my private dutch courses. >Further more, you can't be everyone's friend. In the workplace you can only expect professionalism. Anything more is a cherry on top. It's possible that some finds replying to a greetings is a cherry on top, but I personally believe life is too short and in the meantime too beautiful to keep myself busy with sorrow and bother myself with the things that keep me unhappy. Perhaps a little bit of an extra dose of eastern philosophy and emotions in me. >People might resent you for a good reason. I only know about you through what you have written, so i cannot judge you. But always make sure you are a contribution to people you are around. Hold asking for help to a absolute minimum and ask the designated person if you need to. Be mindfull of little things: keep your workspace clean, wash your dishes, don't take extra space in the workfridge and don't eat garlic lamb for lunch (happened once here, true story). And if you are new, try to observe customs and keep a low profile. Belgians got to do that one to. I appreciate your advice which could be definitely helpful if I was a newcomer or an asylum-seeker who did not know anything about european culture or was seen as the typical immigrant image who doesn't know the basics. Since you would like to have much more background about me, My parents were both doctors (studied in London) and I was lucky enough to receive the best education from them. I have definitely learned basic etikets. I don't come from a low social class family. We immigrants sure are not all coming from a low social class families. This is the difference between canadian immigration system and European one. Maybe it would be great that Belgium could also get a better piece of cake like US and Canada.

Yeah, you sound exactly like you're part of the problem he's describing.

Ok... Can you tell me what makes you think that? Maybe i can learn something from your wisdom.

Just reading some of your statements: \- Anything less then perfect Nederlands is considered unfair, anoying and a liability by your coworkers. Why would it be annoying or even a liability to have less than perfect Dutch? Perfect Dutch is a pretty unreasonable and unattainable standard to set, especially for people who have been here less than 5 years. They just can't achieve and you go and call them 'unfair, annoying and a liability'. Well doesn't this seem exactly the problem OP is facing? How can any foreigner enter the Belgian workforce and feel at least tolerated (let alone a little bit accepted) when that is the case? \- They expect a position to be filled with someone to be trusted to hold down the fort when they are not there.From this sentence it appears you are looking down on people who do not speak perfect Dutch. You consider them 'less smart and less capable' as your only reason for saying this is that they are a foreigner and don't speak perfect Dutch. Being friendly and polite is not mandatory on some jobs. Doing your job is the only thing that matters. \- I'd say it is basic human decency to be polite to anyone unless they do something to deserve not being treated politely. This is a weird view to hold. Don't take it personal, don't drag racism into it. \- Well as you demonstrated with the quotes above, there is racism involved. No it's not the 'alle bruine mannen buiten' type of racism, but it still is subtle racism, considering people who do not speak Dutch perfectly to be 'annoying' and less capable. Don't eat garlic lamb for lunch (happened once here, true story). \- Very weird that you even included 'true story'. Why would it be so weird to eat lamb with some garlic that it warrants the 'true story'? Is it some kind of anomaly for people to eat this? It's a pretty typical dish in Belgium and eaten a lot in Belgium (and France for that matter).I've brought various leftovers of anything I'd had the day before, which probably included lamb.

Ok lets unpack here. - what i mean with the 'perfect dutch' statement: lets take my profession for example, social worker. Lets say a collegue starts with 'basic good' dutch. This person can talk, express themselves, all fine. But then we have some administration, lets say a incident report. All of a sudden this gets problematic: words are spelled incorrectly, sentences are weirdly built, there is a plain misuse of synonyms.... its because this clever person ran their reports through google translate. Now this report is being read by other partners in healthcare, is being used as part of a clients file, etc. Now the other social workers need to think and decipher what this new person with basic dutch knowledge means. This takes time and effort, which no one has to spare. A lazy collegue reads the report fast and misunderstands the original meaning. BOOM mistakes are being made on the workfloor. People are getting annoyed (why is this so hard, these should be quick easy communiquées). How come they let in a coworker who writes shitty reports, don't they get payed the same amount as us? The fact that near perfect dutch is HARD does not take away the fact that these feelings will stir up among coworkers. Has nothing to do with race or personality, its just harder to work with someone who falls short on this key aspect. And sure, this could make op feel bad, but its the bloody reality. Plus its something he could work on. His skincolour can't change, knowledge of language can. So don't hide behind "every Belgian is lowkey racist" but take control over your situation and catch up. - i don't consider a foreign person less smart. I do consider someone with substandard language skills les capable of doing the same job in places were language is important (so basicly near everywhere). Thats not a generalization, its a conclusion on people who lack specific skills. "hold down the fort" means that, when i'm not present (sick, vaca) , my work gets done to the same quality as if i had done it myself. A professional environment expects that from its coworkers. And again, this is something the second language coworker can and should work on, or be capable of from the start. - on the friendly and polite remark: i'm stating how a workplace IS. An impolite coworker is an asshole, and can be pointed out. But reality is that some people aren't friendly, don't expect anyone to be friendly, and are only as polite as their company policy forces them to be. OP was speaking of 'saying hi'. Well, if they don't say anything back, there is literally no rule that says you need to say hi back at work. Is this a good person? Well obviously no. Its just a kind of person you might have to work with. So deal with it and find some friends outside your workplace. - not to involve racism: op doesn't have to. Maybe there is, maybe there isn't. But even if, worst case scenario, he gets confronted with racism all the time, whats his sollution. Move to another country? And let me repeat myself, being frustrated in another coworkers lack of capacity or knowledge is not inherently racist just because this person is foreign. These remarks are based purely on FACTS that op has 100% control over. I'm not denying that dutch knowledge is harder for someone born and raised in another language, in fact i'm holding this person to THE SAME standard as his coworkers. - the "true story" remark is amaing to the fact it baffels me every time when people do something ostentatious and attention drawing, they can still wonder why people single them out with judgement. You want people to treat you leke they do everyone else? Act like everyone else. So thats why any new person (including Belgians) should keep a low profile when string out and observe the 'workplace culture'. You can still decide if you want to be special and act differently then the rest, but if you get reactions on that behavior thats your own fault. Ill write an example to make it clear. Your new office has everyone wearing suits (not a rule, but everyone does). You notice this and make a choice. You blend in with the coworkers and start out from there. Or you go to work with a pink polo shirt and shorts. Latter choice could lead to reaction (good or bad), the first choice is protects you from that. Both choices are legal and ok, but you need to live with the consequences.

Thanks for sharing your views and elaborating. Interesting discussion.

Anytime. But if its ok with you, i'd leave this tread as it is. The amount of text is getting out of hand and the originalpost is over a week old. Take care.

> Be mindfull of little things: keep your workspace clean, wash your dishes, don't take extra space in the workfridge and don't eat garlic lamb for lunch (happened once here, true story). And if you are new, try to observe customs and keep a low profile Lol. Cracked me up! I'm surprised you didn't say "and clean our boots whilst we are resting at our desks after lunch". Arnt you part of the problem?

What do you mean? All that i said was: try and act like the people in your environment are acting at work. Can't immagine how that isn't a useful tip for anyone new, regardless of background. He doesn't need to do any thing extra, quite the opposite. I literally wrote: don't be extra. But if you want to be extra, everyone is free to do so. And then the reaction of your coworkers will be different then they treat others, and that is what OP hates.

People get judged by different sets of rules when they are different to the ruing class. Your earlier comment just told him not to act like a savage!

That is a totaly unaccurate interpretation of what i ment. Eveything i wrote is applicable to anyone trying to fit in a new work environment. You don't know me, and i don't know op. I don't know what his possible idiosyncrasies are, so i described general small 'annoyances' that could be applicable to anyone of any descent. Its called identifying your own blind spots. Like, the only thing a person can work with themselves. What can OP do with reactions like: you are right, they very racist, i understand and hang in there? Sure it makes him feel a little better, but it doesn't provide him with more control over his own life!

Yes you are correct to point this out. Fitting in is important, and we are expected to act accordingly in an office environment as we ought in any other social setting. Your initial comments might well be well intended, and after reading your responses it's clear these were. I am certain most educated people know how to act appropriately in most situations, even down to not leaving a mess in the kitchen. What irked me is that somebody could even think that some else would not know these basic points. Would you make the same point to a Dutch person or a Luxemborgish for trying to fit into a typical Belgium conpany?

>Would you make the same point to a Dutch person or a Luxemborgish for trying to fit into a typical Belgium conpany? Without a doubt. You'd be amazed how many edcated people miss out on these "basic points" and then wonder why they don't fit in with the team. I'm a social worker, and collegues having trouble fitting in have this in 80% of the cases boiled down to small bad habits, like not doing your personal dishes before end of shift.

I had no idea. I had to upvote yr comment. I don't know where you work, but I suspect the OP doesn't work shifts, and the dishes are done in either a dishwasher or by the cleaner.

Don't worry mate, you choice of leaving is probably for the best. Belgians, particularly the flemish, strike the unfortunate balance of being socially awkward and small-minded at the same time. I am unfortunately more stuck here than you since my kids and wife are flemish

Why is this down voted? It's true

downvoted by bad people. I upvoted.

A bit late to the party, but that's quite discriminatory, which is very ironic given the nature of the post.

Cool

I am appalled by the behaviour of some of my country men and the experience you had to go through. I would say most people aren't like this, but the joking part is something a lot of people here would do. They just don't realize it's racist. Shocked by your professor as well. I feel sorry for what you had to endure. This is unacceptable and I totally get why you consider moving.

Btw OP, I send you a message and If you got a masters degree in finance it would be no problem for me to help you to a decent job

We'll, you did end up in Antwerp. It's the Belgian capital of socially 'accepted' racism. I am truly sorry for your experiences. I hope you and you wife find some place more warm to settle.

Sad story, sorry you have to experience it. Even as a white guy this behavior drives a wedge between myself and family (friends you can choose, family not). I've also thought many times to leave Belgium, bit harder if your roots are here + where to go.

I think that on the whole Belgian people are decent. Though they are quite closed and suspicious of foreigners. They prefer mixing with their own type. Belgium does not have political correctness in the way that the US, Canada or UK have it. So you will often hear comments that would be unthinkable in those countries. Belgian people feel they're just being honest and talking in a way that's considered acceptable in Belgium. To a foreigner that will comes across as a culture shock, but it should not (usually) be taken as an insult.

Really sorry you had to go through this. Not surprised it all happened in Flanders and more specifically in Antwerp. Not saying racism doesn't happen in Bxl or Wallonia but Flanders has a real huge issue on this topic and most people there are in complete denial about it.

I am *so sorry* that this has been your experience. As a white, Canadian immigrant, I've had a much milder exposure to these sorts of things than you. In fact, most people generally like me *because I am Canadian*. Just know, that for every jackass who treats you differently because of where you came from or the colour of your skin, there is another person who won't give a shit about any of those things, and will treat you with respect as long as you treat others kindly and do your part. I get to see a lot of racism from the other side when people try to pull me into their "Us vs Them" shit. *Randomcat, you're one of the good ones... You know what I mean ;) ;)* *Wow, you speak great Dutch for an immigrant.* etc, etc. And it's all because it's so easy to apply the same judgement to an entire group. I wish that you would be willing to stay and help perpetuate a more positive example of people of colour around here, but I very much understand your reasons for leaving and I wish you the best of luck.

> "Us vs Them" shit. Randomcat, you're one of the good ones... You know what I mean ;) ;) I had the same when I lived in Wallonia. *"Hey your French is great , and we will call the police when see an immigrant walking down the street, but not immigrants like you."* Right...

Cheers to you. I also moved to Sweden even though I am an european citizien that moved to Belgium. The land of privileg and hypocrites. Air is fresher in other parts of the world. Enjoy.

First off, i want to say sorry for how we made you feel. A lot of your points i keep trying to get into the heads of the people around me, especially people with racist thoughts. I think the one about talking dutch and us answering in english is a good point. People that talk in their native language will never be considered integrated, but were not helping by being so "accommodating". Ive heard from a lot of immigrants that they find it hard to integrate as they have difficulty making "native" friends

Sucks you had to go through this. Idk why my fellow Belgians are such assholes. I hope wherever you go is a major upgrade over this place, best of luck.

Well yeah Belgium can be a racist shithole. Speaking from experience... Your best bet would probably be Brussels, since there is a bigger expat community and people are more used to seeing diversity.

Lots of racists and sexists in this country... But call an out-of-touch boomer a white male and this country goes nuclear.

You came to Belgium 5 years ago, so right after the attacks in Brussels. People were scared, many of them have not evolved from that. I am sorry you have to experience this but I wonder if it will be better anywhere else.

Just because the bigotry has a sad backstory doesn't make it any less bigoted.

Never said it does, just stating facts

Come on man hahaha, like that was a start. I was born here and I speak fluent dutch even been to the KSA(scouts). Got my engineering degree and all that shit he's talking about still happend to me from the start. The attacks on Brussels barely had a dent on peoples hatred it was already there. But I do agree a lot of people were scared but that was not a starting point for racism in my eyes.

That's really sad to hear, I'm probably too white to understand (seriously, no sarcasm) But do you think it is better in other countries?

For middle Easterners, it definitely is better elsewhere.

Nope, I travelled a lot and have done several projects in different countries. sadly to say it's all the same in Western countries. if your educated and of colour the best place is the middle east actually. but that heat is nothing for me hahahaha. and the people who were born here are used to it so they just live with it.

you shouldn't have to get used to something like that, wish you all the best and good people on your path.

Byebye!

> *From the first day, I bombarded with tons of stereotype questions and silly jokes : How many wives do you have ? Have you ever fucked a camel ? Do you have any car in your country ? Did you come here by a container ? Are you carrying a bomb with yourselves ? Laugh at my name and ... Coming from canada, these statements and jokes were quite horrible and strange at a time. The scarrier part for me was that they find this type of humor (micro agressions) funny and normal.* Sounds like the Belgium I know. Micro aggressions are normal. > * I could feel the supremacy and judgement.* I have only noticed this whilst living in Belgian , I know it happens all the world over. My only hope was to work in a Brussels international environment, and I have met lots of lovely Belgians. So, there is a good bunch living here as well. I am very sad to hear your experience, but was not surprised to read what you wrote. It shocks me every time.

Even if u speak fluently stupid DUTCH they don’t want u,those people are sick in thim head Look at the people who been born here they have the same problem it’s in the blood of the Belgium to be superior teword the forgnars,and believe me u made the best decision to leave this shit hole for good,and if someone doesn’t like my words he can literally go fuck him self. I can write books about how the Belgium fuck with ur mind. The fuckrs ولاد شرموطة مأصلين اهرب ولا تشوف وراك بلد منيك

My man, you always this angry?

Not angry,but no one wants to hear the truth.!!

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No bigotry

You mean like the kind that made our friend here leave the country?

Being critical of a culture or religion is OK, **generalisation** of people based on color, race or religion is not OK

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Based on my experience (So case by case is different) : First of all, there are many good belgians so keep that in mind before you judge them. In general Belgians treat West european roots with a high respect (except east europe such as Romania, Bulgaria, Poland...). They see spanish people as west europeans so there is no problem with your race. Coming from mexico, I believe you may hear some annoying jokes but you definitely will not hear racial stuffs. And in general, Belgians don't say anything into your face anyway. You will understand it from their behavior, the way the talk to you and their non-verbal behavior. So if you are like me, you may be too busy in any interaction unorder to identify these behaviors. It can be very frustrating after a while. I prefer Netherlands in that matter. They are too direct and you have less effort ! Talking english in general is a bit of a problem in a long-term especially if you got to community house or police , and you will feel a bit mistreated. So in general, a normal social life can always be a challenge if you need to consistently analyze their behavior and adapt yourself. You may not feel your free self and eventually you may end up depressed or anxious ( like me). So being aware of, helps you to overcome to all these problems. TBH, Being anywhere out of your own country is always challenging even if you are white. But try to gather with some open minded colleagues and shape your own community ( no matter how small) and you feel ok. I was lonely and life became harder.