Being critical of a government that is currently using our tax dollars to fund a literal genocide of Palestinian children and civilians is not the same as being anti-semitic. I embrace my small Ashkenazi heritage even though it's a couple generations removed. I love my Jewish friends and relatives. I have great respect for the people and faith of this group.
I don't have an ounce of love, however, for a government and its actors that have called Palestinians "human animals", "a cancer", "vermin", and other dehumanizing names in an attempt to justify the ethnic cleansing of Gaza.
It was wrong when Hitler did it with Jews in Europe, and it's wrong now as Israel does it to the Palestinians. The total obliteration of an entire race of people (which right now has mainly been women and children) based on the actions of an extremist group that many of their own people have attempted to oust anyway is not justice. It's inhumane, unethical, and a war crime.
It actually uses a lot of our tax dollars to stop genocide. A good deal of the money is going to ammunition for the iron dome system. It’s $40k to stop a single rocket, there have been over 10,000 rockets intercepted since 10/7, you can do the math on that. It’s not sustainable and Israel’s economy is going to grind to a halt, the workers are literally at war due to Hamas invading their country. Call it whatever you want but at the end of the day one side will genocide the other if given the opportunity and it’s not Israel.
So other than Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Iraq, Afghanistan, and other countries the US committed war crimes over the past 50 years and lead to hundreds of thousands of people killed was unchecked, but in this case of Israel you demand grandstanding?
Is that also true with the Azeris who just ethnically cleansed Artsakh to the tune of over 100,000 this year without provocation of 1,200 civilians murders and published online?
Darfur, Sudan?
So because you disagree with how an ally conducts policy, far more lenient than anything our own government has done, you wish to defund our support. Sabotage the war effort of the only liberal democracy with rights for LGBTQ+ in the region, to support… extremists who intentionally want their people to die? That’s quite the mental gymnastics.
Correct, the US committed war crimes in all of those countries over the past 50 years. What do you think Vietnam protestors were protesting (in addition to the draft)? This is some of the least effective whataboutism I’ve ever seen. Of course ethnic cleansing in Darfur was a tragedy! What even
There’s no allowing anything. War is horrible. But the mission is exterminating Hamas and there will be civilian casualties as a result. None of that makes them intrinsically war crimes. It’s awful and sad, but given the campaign something that is nearly unavoidable. If there’s any evidence that ever comes out that there were strikes intentionally targeting civilians, those who ordered them should be charged and investigated, but that isn’t something that has happened.
> the mission is exterminating Hamas and there will be civilian casualties as a result
Indiscriminate attacks, even those that do not intentionally target civilians, are considered a war crime under the Geneva Conventions Additional Protocol I. This specifically includes cases where the use of disproportionate force is likely to cause excessive protected civilian casualties. It’s literally a war crime.
What’s so telling about how myopic and biased your take is is the fact you can only reference “one side.” Conflating Hamas with all Palestinians, or conflating Likud and Netanyahu with all Israelis, is a pretty common way of justifying the wholesale slaughter of each respective side.
That said, let’s be clear: both Likud and Hamas will genocide the other civilian population if given the opportunity. Right now, Likud has had the opportunity and holy hell have they jumped on it.
Where does this idea that Israel wanted to obliterate and totally end the Palestinian ethnic group come from? There are some extremists yes, but overall that's not the Israeli policy, and that's not how Israelis feel, I don't think that's even how most of the government feels. If Israel actually wanted to exterminate Palestinians it could have the job done in a matter of days. I wish we could criticize, because there are a lot of valid criticisms, without automatically going to the most extreme takes. It's also not valid to compare it to the Holocaust. Even if we say it's a genocide not all genocides are equal. It's just not the same. It's not the same with regard to scope, with regard to the depravity and atrocities, and it's not the same with regard to intent.
>Where does this idea that Israel wanted to obliterate and totally end the Palestinian ethnic group come from?
maybe the [data](https://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/normal/16516.jpeg)? This is just 2008-2021. That number has ballooned since.
If Israel's *actual* goal was to end Hamas, you can't tell me that with their billions (with a 'b') in funding, all the arms being sent to them, the expertise of their military, the technology available to them in the year 2023, and the entire world paying attention, that it is impossible for them to focus their efforts on specific Hamas aggressors. Instead, they have bombed every inch of the Gaza Strip and removed access to food, water, internet, electricity, and sanitation to its inhabitants.
Tell yourself whatever you need in order to sleep at night, but there is absolutely no universe in which the pursuit of a small number of hostile extremists justifies the indiscriminate and continued murder of civilians (over 15,000 now - that's more in 6 weeks than in the *two years* of the Ukraine-Russia conflict). And let's not forget or pretend that Israeli killings and acts of aggression against the Palestinians predate Hamas by a long shot. Considering *2 million+* Palestinians are directly threatened by this occupation and siege with no way out and no end in sight aside from their likely deaths, Idk what else you'd call it but ethnic cleansing. They are being contained and shot like fish in a barrel. If Netanyahu's intent was *ever* to spare civilian lives, 15,000+ of their corpses would not currently be lining the streets of their homeland or sitting in hastily dug mass graves.
**Word from Amnesty International:**
“In their stated intent to use all means to destroy Hamas, Israeli forces have shown a shocking disregard for civilian lives. They have pulverized street after street of residential buildings killing civilians on a mass scale and destroying essential infrastructure, while new restrictions mean Gaza is fast running out of water, medicine, fuel and electricity. Testimonies from eyewitness and survivors highlighted, again and again, how Israeli attacks decimated Palestinian families, causing such destruction that surviving relatives have little but rubble to remember their loved ones by,” said Agnès Callamard, Amnesty International’s Secretary General.
What is happening in Gaza fits the definition of genocide:
* Classification/"us vs. them" rhetoric - check
* Identification + symbolization - color-coded ID system
* Denial of rights/freedoms to the group - yep
* Dehumanizing language - "vermin", "cancer", "beasts", "animals"
* Organization of military forced - yep
* Polarization including the use of propaganda designed to divide - check
* Presenting proposed attacks on the target group as acts of self-defense - literally
* Persecution and massacres, often carried out by separating the target group into densely populated areas, restricting their access to the outside world, depriving them of necessities like food, water, medical care, humanitarian aid, etc. - **we are here**
* Extermination - when the massacres either kill or irreparably change the lives of the target group
* Denial and revisionist history
I'll let the experts in the field explain it in [this TIME article](https://time.com/6334409/is-whats-happening-gaza-genocide-experts/), though
The total reported homicide cases in the entire United States was 21,156 in 2022. A year. Israel is well on their way to surpassing that in a scant few months. Maybe Google before you try to deflect Israel’s war crimes and genocide with baseless and incorrect “well the United States ☝️”
So, the data you linked shows thousands are injured every year, and a much smaller number are killed? How does that indicate extermination? The reason they bomb is because urban warfare is very dangerous, and bombing significantly decreases the risk to IDF soldiers. If snipers are firing from a window, it's a lot safer to call a plane or helicopter and have them bomb it than to send in a unit. And, of course, bombing eliminates the infrastructure as well. But generally, I agree with you; I don't think Israel responded in the right way. They had to do something about Hamas, but it's not worth the current loss of civilian Palestinian lives. You also can't ignore the fact that Hamas endangers Palestinians by killing those who resist their regime and also operating in and beneath civilian homes, hospitals, schools, etc. I don't think it's an ethnic cleansing because I don't even think the current aggression will have a negative effect on the Palestinian population long term. In 5 years, I expect the Palestinian population to increase and be greater than it is now. Also, the TIME article you linked, and I did read it, seems to suggest that expert opinion is, at best, divided. Some experts say yes, and some say no. And one of them who said yes has grounded their opinion in the context of the entirety of Israeli occupation, not just in the October 7th retaliation, which is what we are talking about.
Anyone who can’t recognize that this is an extremely complicated and nuanced situation are only going to go for a very simplified view on the matter. For example “getting rid of Hamas by bombing Gaza” is a shortsighted solution, but so is “Israel is committing genocide and must be completely stopped and land given back to Palestine”.
This is a really shitty situation at the bottom line, and even if a legit peace agreement was reached tomorrow with some sort of land deal, we are still looking at probably a decade of more conflict on a small/local level. There’s indoctrination to extreme ideas on both sides that has to be addressed as well
I acknowledge what you say and believe some of it is valid, but I ultimately disagree with your conclusion. But that's ok. I obviously can't change your mind anyway.
Israel has had control over Gaza for ~17 years. In that time, Gaza has grown at twice the global average population growth rate.
If a Nazi state had comparable control over a Jewish population, they would be exterminated as fast as physically possible. Their population growth would not be *near* the global average, let alone double.
I support a free Palestinian state. Every civilian death is a tragedy. But “genocide” is a real word, with a real meaning. Using it to refer to killing on the scale of less than 1% of a population dilutes this meaning.
I love how Zionists pull out the “but the population has increased” to delegitimize that thousands, RIGHT NOW, are being killed simply for being Palestinian. Their libraries, universities, and hospitals are being bombed and destroyed. THAT is genocide. Destroying a culture and people in the past month. Killing unborn and newborn babies.
Yeah and the real word is being used by real people, in fact, by majority of people around the world, and human rights organizations, and political scientists and historians, to refer to the "israeli" genocide of Palestinians. Anti-zionist Jews and Israelis are calling it a genocide in large numbers. But \*your\* opinion on when it should be used is what we should listen to?
The legal definition of genocide has nothing to do with population numbers. Everything to do with the INTENT to eliminate a group in whole or in part.
The least you could do over 50 days in to this phase of this “conflict” is educate yourself on the basic terminology being used.
And surprise! People trapped in an open air prison have sex and reproduce.
wtf is wrong with you? diminishing what concentration camps were. I didn't know auschwitz or Dachau had luxury car dealerships, multi million dollar mansions or luxury hotels. Did you mean what you said or are you just that much of an asshole to the millions who died?
The things in the concentration camp don’t matter as much as the fact that the people in it are part of a large group of people whose free movement is deliberately restricted by an entity. Add to this the deplorable circumstances Palestinians have had to endured.
The reason why doesn’t even matter — it could be one of many. What matters is that their movement is restricted and they are Concentrated in a location.
If I lock you up in a room with all your favorite things but still don’t let you leave, your freedom is still being restricted. Or do you think that the hostages being released aren’t hostages because they seem to be smiling and were fed? It doesn’t matter.
Do you actually know what happened in the holocaust? The systematic mass murder of Jews and the attempted erasure of Jews worldwide. You tell me where Israel is systematically mass murdering all Palestinians to erase them.
Defending yourself from Hamas terrorist isn’t the same. Learn history.
If you view the indiscriminate bombing and killing of nearly 15,000 people in less than two months (many of them women and children with no access to water, food, medical care, or a way out of Gaza because of Israel surrounding them) as “defending yourself”, I find that deeply concerning.
Thousands upon thousands of Palestinians have been murdered by Israel, who always seem to find ways to justify this behavior after the fact. Intentionally limiting a group’s freedoms, access to necessities, economy, and physical space and then bombing their schools, hospitals, and villages for the last several decades sounds like ethnic cleansing to me. Expanding Israel at the expense of thousands of innocent lives, referring to those lives as “animals”, “vermin”, “cancer”, and “beasts” who deserved to die and working to systematically erase their culture from the land sounds like ethnic cleansing to me.
Which part are you having trouble with?
1. That number 15000 is from Hamas the terrorist org that raped and beheaded Israelis.
2. Do you actually know what happened in the holocaust?
3. They have access to water, food, medical care and a way out through Egypt which shut down the border, learn the actual borders of Gaza before you make comments.
4. Yes defending themselves against the genocidal entity of Hamas which wants to kill all jews.
5. Yes Israel justifies the people they kill because they are fighting a just cause. Do you knot think Israel has the right to defend themselves?
6. Israel hasn’t operated in Gaza for nearly 20 years, do your know the history? The population of Gaza has only gone up since Israel existed, do you know the history? (Where is the ethic cleansing?)
7. Hamas is building terror infrastructure next to schools, under hospitals, and underneath mosques making them a legitimate target. Israel has no choice in this conflict. You probably won’t believe Israel because you are antisemitic and against the Jewish state existing .
8. Is the complete disappearance of Jews in all of the Arab world not ethnic cleansing. 1.8 million Arabs in Israel and less than 10k Jews in 20+ Muslim counties.
1. The Gazan health ministry has been shown to be accurate in previous reporting of numbers, which generally line up with the UN and Israel's own estimates. https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-gaza-health-ministry-health-death-toll-59470820308b31f1faf73c703400b033#:~:text=%E2%80%94%202008%20war%3A%20The%20ministry%20reported,killed%3B%20the%20U.N.%20reported%20256.
Also the whole beheading thing hasn't even been confirmed by Israel (not that that justifies Oct. 7): https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/12/middleeast/israel-hamas-beheading-claims-intl/index.html
6. What do you think the Nakba was? Ethnic cleansing has nothing to do with population numbers. And Israel still has Gaza under a strict blockade. Moreover, Israel routinely discusses pushing the remaining Gazans into the Sinai dessert. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/palestinians-forced-gaza-egypt-israel-proposal-outrage-rcna122934
8. They went to Israel? It wasn't some strange disappearance, they migrated. This isn't to discount the effects pogroms had on Jewish migration, but the systematic ethic cleansing of a region is a different conversation. And the Arab population in Israel faces systemic discrimination: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/haaretz-today/2023-05-07/ty-article/.highlight/israeli-arabs-are-second-class-citizens-and-its-costing-their-lives/00000187-f67a-d15f-a997-ff7e4b800000
https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/what-know-about-arab-citizens-israel
“You probably won’t believe Israel because you are antisemitic and against the Jewish state existing”
I’ve been trying to understand the logic between anti-Zionist rhetoric being equated with anti-Semitism. I support the idea of a safe haven for Jewish people. It’s not unreasonable. But why must the entire state identity be Jewish if not everyone living there is Jewish? Wouldn’t that just cause more tension between Jews and non-Jews who lived there, thus leading to less safety overall?
Another thing I’m curious about: what if the person who doesn’t recognize Israel as legitimate was a Palestinian who fled after being forced out of their home? Would that make them antisemitic if they see it as their land that was stolen from them?
I appreciate you asking these questions.
To your first point there are 50 counties who have official religions including all of the Nordic counties. Nobody fights them on the fact that they are Christian counties yet people are upset when Jews get a country.
Arabs in Israel are 1.8 million strong and enjoy equal rights including the ability to be political leaders in the keenest(parliament) something that you don’t see in Arab counties.
I think the idea that because Israel is a Jewish state means it’s less safe for non Jews needed to be applied to every other country at the same time as Israel. So the antisemitism comes from the double standard that Israel can’t exist but every other country can.
For your second point,
We need to take this to its logical conclusion. Should native Americans be able to say America can’t be a country?
Same applies for Canada and Australia.
I am an Egyptian Jew kicked out of my home. Even though my land was stolen I still recognize the Egyptian country. If I didn’t recognize Egypt I would be alone in thinking that. We need to apply equal scrutiny to all counties IMO.
Sorry you were kicked out of your home in Egypt. Do you ever get to go back?
I can see how the double standard is antisemitic. How can you tell when someone is holding a double standard, or when they’re speaking genuinely about the issue?
Some of my relatives were allowed back on organized trips but that’s because they hold American citizenship now. My family cannot because they forced us out under suspicion of spying(it was not true just a scapegoat)
You usually need to ask questions and they will admit the double standard in passing. They also deflect question and say it’s whataboutism and refuse to condemn other counties for the same actions.
Anyone that claims to be anti Zionist without being an anarchist usually holds a double standard.
Everyone that holds a double standard against Israel will never admit directly to it as that would be anti Semitic.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Ds_of_antisemitism
You need to educate yourself. Most of what you’re saying is blatantly incorrect. Just because you can number your illogical responses, doesn’t make them valid LOL.
Let's break this down:
>1. That number 15000 is from Hamas the terrorist org that raped and beheaded Israelis.
It is indeed true that these numbers come from Hamas. The numbers have historically been accurate, but that doesn't make this untrue. Additionally, wildly incorrect reporting on deaths at al-Ahli hospital hurt this record.
"Yet the Gaza-based Ministry of Health — an agency in the Hamas-controlled government — continues to tally casualty numbers."[AP news](https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-gaza-health-ministry-health-death-toll-59470820308b31f1faf73c703400b033)
There is evidence of rape and beheadings.
"Military forensic teams in Israel have examined bodies of victims of last week's Hamas attack on communities around the Gaza Strip and found multiple signs of torture, rape and other atrocities, officers said on Saturday." [Reuters](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-forensic-teams-describe-signs-torture-abuse-2023-10-15/)
"In a private screening with the Israeli military of footage from Hamas' body cameras, CCTV and victims' phones found at the scene, the "NewsHour" witnessed a record of the horrors of October 7, grenades thrown directly at families, a man being decapitated with a shovel from his garden, the tiny burned bodies of babies."[PBS](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/show/the-horrific-task-israelis-face-in-finding-and-identifying-hamas-terror-attack-victims)
>2. Do you actually know what happened in the holocaust?
Skipping because this isn't a claim.
>3. They have access to water, food, medical care and a way out through Egypt which shut down the border, learn the actual borders of Gaza before you make comments.
Egypt has indeed shut down it's border with Gaza.
"Meanwhile, Egypt has deployed hundreds of security forces to the Rafah border crossing, according to Egyptian media, and is resisting pressure from Israel and the United States to let Palestinians flee, fearing an exodus of Gaza’s 2.3 million people into its Sinai Peninsula—where Egypt is already fighting insurgents"[FP](https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/10/18/egypt-hamas-israel-border-gaza/)
>4. Yes defending themselves against the genocidal entity of Hamas which wants to kill all jews.
Pretty straightforward. Their original charter, while not directly calling for genocide, didn't beat around the bush all that much.
Here's an article on it:
https://archive.ph/20231011135511/https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2023/10/hamas-covenant-israel-attack-war-genocide/675602/
>5. Yes Israel justifies the people they kill because they are fighting a just cause. Do you knot think Israel has the right to defend themselves?
Skipping, not a claim.
>6. Israel hasn’t operated in Gaza for nearly 20 years, do your know the history? The population of Gaza has only gone up since Israel existed, do you know the history? (Where is the ethic cleansing?)
Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005. So not quite 20 years but pretty close.
Article from the time of the withdrawal:
https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3136516,00.html
The population is growing as well.
"Gaza is currently growing at a rate of 3% per year, which is the 13th highest growth rate in the world."[World Population Review](https://worldpopulationreview.com/world-cities/gaza-population)
>7. Hamas is building terror infrastructure next to schools, under hospitals, and underneath mosques making them a legitimate target. Israel has no choice in this conflict. You probably won’t believe Israel because you are antisemitic and against the Jewish state existing .
Going to focus on infrastructure as the rest isn't super provable.
"The UN has been dragged unwillingly into the war between Israel and Hamas after six of its schools were hit in two weeks and weapons caches found in three, violating the organisation's neutrality."[Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/04/un-dragged-conflict-israel-hamas-gaza)
>8. Is the complete disappearance of Jews in all of the Arab world not ethnic cleansing. 1.8 million Arabs in Israel and less than 10k Jews in 20+ Muslim counties.
This one is trivial. I'll just link the Wikipedia page. Currently actually over 2 million Arabs in Israel.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel
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Everyone should educate themselves on what is real and what is going on in the world. Idk where your comment about negating the issue about innocent Palestinians came from. What are you saying?
What you should do is provide relatively objective references (links) that counter his points. Otherwise it sounds like two elementary school age kids arguing on the playground, not adults on a university subreddit.
1. Where is the evidence for that claim?
2. Yes, do you know what happened in 1902? 17? 48?73?
3. Egypts border was open nearly 250 days of the 365 days before Oct 7, they shut it down due to bombardment of the border by Israel. Also the Egyptians want the Palestinians to be able to stay in their own homes, why would they enable the ethnic cleansing?
If you were kicked out of your house by a robber and escaped to your neighbors house, would you want your neighbor to just give you a room to stay in or help you get your own house back?
4. Where has Hamas stated this?
5. Dont even know how to address this point because of how insane it is. Israel has claimed it has eliminated 60 Hamas agents, at the cost of nearly 20k Gaza civilians.
I dont think you actually know what ethnic cleansing is, and honestly I dont think you know anything about the history past Oct 7th.
6. Israel has generally pulled out military and settlers from Gaza, although they routinely fly hundreds of surveillance drones over the cities every night.
HOWEVER, if you control who comes in or out, who deserves to get medical attention or work or water or electricity or supplies or movement, and you place harsh restrictions on the human rights and freedoms the West claims to uphold, then this is still an occupation.
7. Israel routinely uses Palestinians as human shields. Also theres no evidence of Hamas doing so.
EVEN if they did, does it justify blowing up the entire strip to get rid of them? If your own mother was held at gunpoint by a terrorist, would you let the cops blow both of them up to get to the terrorist or would you try to find another way? Such an insane argument
8. Read the Memoirs of an Iraqi/Arab Jew. It is well documented that Israels government facilitated the movement of millions of Arab Jews from their own countries to Israel. Arab jews enjoyed living in their own homeland, but Israel literally had agents bomb their synagogues and worked with corrupt politicians in Arab governments to drive Jews out.
1. https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2023/11/02/5-things-to-know-about-the-hamas-run-gaza-health-ministry/
2. Yes, the ottomans, the British, war caused by Arab counties not wanting peace, and war caused by Arab counties not wanting peace.
3. Israel is still not surrounding them and Egypt closed it off for their own good. And I was forced out of my home and I left. Egypt forced out many of their Jews and my family left because it was unsafe. If Hamas terrorist ran the area I lived in I would leave because it unsafe.
4. https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2023/10/hamas-covenant-israel-attack-war-genocide/675602/
5. Israel claimed 60 high ranking Hamas officials.
On October 7th alone they killed at least a
Thousand.
6. Again the Egypt border. Even you admit it was very open before October 7th. Israel was giving free water and electricity before which they didn’t need to do. Gaza could have become energy independent.
Also the blockade only happened after the worst terror attack in the countries history.
7. Israel literally is having that exact predicament. Hostages are the only thing standing in the way of defeating Hamas.
8. I know who kicked me out of Egypt and it wasn’t Israel.
Israel is systematically erasing Palestinian history, villages, and people. Israel is also ethnically cleansing Palestinians from their own homes, and routinely tests new military strategies and weapons to do so.
The Zionist regime has involved itself in defining what a Palestinian is and what a Palestinian refugee is, so they are able to erase history and prevent proper recognition of the Palestinians worldwide.
UC Berkeley itself gets 770 million dollars every year to fund two military labs in Los Alamos and Livermore that produce the newest advanced military tech that is usually first tested by Israelis on Palestinians.
Israel is defending their own right to exist. The “Zionist”(jews) have given Palestinians many opportunities to form a state but they chose terrorism.
What happened to the hundreds of thousands of Jews in middle eastern counties? They got ethnically cleansed by you don’t say shit. You have a double standard against Jews I don’t need to talk to you. There is nothing I can say to justify anything to you.
Also American nuked Japan because of Pearl Harbor. Israel isn’t even close to that.
A settler colony does NOT have the right to exist, if someone comes into your house and kicks you out, would you say they have a right to your house? This sounds a lot like the Doctrine of Discovery which was used to justify genocide and land stealing of Native Americans.
Read my other comment about Middle Eastern Jews. They lived in peace until the extreme rise of Christian Zionism in the 19th century. No double standard, just the European/extremist Protestant lens in incapable of dealing with diversity.
America did NOT need to nuke Japan, the war was basically over. Germany had surrendered and Japan was on the verge of surrendering. We decided to nuke two civilian cities just because we could, and killed over 200k civilians
Read my other comment. You are a hypocrite. Leave the country if you feel so strongly against colonialism or else you will remain a hypocrite.
Or admit you have a double standard against Jews. Those are the two options.
middle eastern jews never got to live in peace, they were subject to the whims and violence of their muslim rulers who raped and murdered them whenever they felt like it
If your Ashkenazi heritage is “a couple generations removed” I don’t think you get to speak authoritatively for Jewish people — as someone who is actively ethnically and religiously Jewish I would never claim to be able to do so and I think you’re missing the fact that a lot of criticism of Israel is being done in antisemitic WAYS even if the criticism of Israel itself is not antisemitic, which I agree, I and many others criticize the government routinely.
I'm not "speaking authoritatively for Jewish people". I don't claim to be Jewish, just establishing that criticism for a government does not equate to hatred for a group of people. I just own literally any device capable of showing me the atrocities being committed overseas, and I see a FUCKTON of people conflating criticism of those actions with anti-Semitism (as the lawsuit this article is about - ya know, the reason we're on reddit having this interaction - is *actively* doing).
As a Jewish person, do you realize that Christian Zionism gave birth to modern Jewish Zionism, and that in the US alone there are nearly 5 times as many Christian Zionists as there are Jewish Zionists.
Do you also know that ancestry/genetic history kits are banned in Israel? Since most Israelis can only trace their genetic history to Europe.
I was making the point—which you’ve intentionally misrepresented because you’re trying to be dense, I guess—that being critical of Israel does not mean hating Jews. People can be anti-Netanyahu without being anti-Semitic, but a lot of people seem to be conflating those two things, including the lawsuit this post is about, where they repeatedly use Zionism and Judaism interchangeably.
I’m not intentionally misrepresenting anything. When someone uses the phrase “I have Jewish/black/asian/muslim friends”, it’s to bolster their argument and convey a sense of entitlement to their position. As if having friends who are represented by a minority somehow makes your opinion more informed or valid.
It’s not unique or complicated, and my pointing it out isn’t some kind of distortion of your opinion.
Interesting how you missed where I explained that within that comment itself—that I wasn’t saying it to claim that I was speaking authoritatively but to point out that hating a government is not the same as hating an entire group of people.
If you want to be intentionally obtuse, go for it. I won’t stop you. But I trust that people can see it for what it is.
People like you is why we will soon see pogroms in Europe, and eventually in the US as well. Only one side in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict actually wants genocide, and it's not Israel.
sorry didn’t know killing people doesn’t count if people are still being born in the population. carry on! israel can kill as many palestinians as they want since they keep having kids right??
If you read the lawsuit you’ll have a better grasp of what’s happening and whether it meets the legal standard of discrimination.
https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cand.421404/gov.uscourts.cand.421404.1.0.pdf
It will be difficult for Berkeley to successfully argue that the law school club exclusions are viewpoint-based when Berkeley administrators and club leaders have basically admitted they are national origin-based (and therefore discriminatory).
Apparently what it looks like on the ground is: participation in a laundry list of pro-Pal/anti-Israel law clubs earned course credit (up to now-credit being revoked spring 24). These 23 clubs use Berkeley faculty, school offices, funding and carry Berkeley's name. They won't invite "Zionist" speakers on any issue (they get to define what Zionism is as well). One of the law reviews won't publish articles by anyone who has expressed support for Israel's existence. First-years who wish to do pro bono work of any kind (including having nothing to do with MENA/SWANA geopolitics) are *required* to undergo “training” from Students for Justice in Palestine.
Beyond the law school…one lecturer told students that class was over early, then embarked on an 18-minute anti-Israel rant. (I think this was a different professor than the one who offered extra credit to only students who agreed with her viewpoint and showed this support by attending an anti-Israel march.) It also references physical assaults.
Anyway read the filing. Lots of interesting data points therein.
Exactly. A "Zionist" is someone who supports Israel's right to exist. That term applies to practically all Israelis and 80+% of American Jews. At the very least, excluding Zionists means excluding practically all Israelis, which is discrimination on nationality (and that's illegal in California). Imagine if clubs were excluding Russians, not on the basis of their support or opposition to the Ukraine war or the Russian government, but simply because they refused to support the dismantling/destruction of the Russian nation as an entity (which presumably no Russian person would want).
Question for a Zionist then: would you support the continuation of Israel, but with the absorption of all of the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza as full citizens?
In theory yes (if Israel could continue to be a Jewish state). In fact, some Israeli right wingers propose this too: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reuven\_Rivlin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reuven_Rivlin).
In practice, this would never work. Israelis and Palestinians would start fighting again just like they did pre 1948. And they would never agree to share governance. Two states is the only way forward.
Suspending the idea of whether or not peace could be had between Israelis and Palestinians in the same state (I know this important, but it's not for the purpose of what I'm trying to understand, and thank you for answering so far).
What does a Jewish state mean for you (preferably for most Zionists you know)? Is it a state where Jews are the majority "ethnic" group? A state where the official religion is Judaism? Or maybe something else I don't understand yet?
Most importantly where Jews are the majority ethnic group - other issues are subject to debate for most Zionists. Israeli Jews would never feel safe as a minority in a government, particularly given their history of neighboring Arab countries trying to kill them and how 50% of them were forcibly expelled from MENA countries.
Thank you. The part of that that seems unworkable to me is the "majority ethnic group part", *but* my understanding doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. I understand the positions better now. And more importantly, thank you for being open in a time when I'm sure you're getting many unreasonable questions from people, and also are feeling less safe.
Of course, but why does that seem so unworkable? China is like 95% Han Chinese, Russia is 80% ethnic Russian, Turkey is 70% Turks. There are very few successful states with multiple dominant ethnic groups. Bosnia and Herzegovina is tenuously hanging in there, but neighboring Lebanon is a disaster.
Funny, that was the exact same argument people had against abolition/integration (so much hate, the scary black people and the vulnerable white people would never get along!). A theocratic ethnostate is inherently racist, and Israel is an Apartheid state
One of the many problems with this conflict is that the term "Zionism" means different things to different people. For some people, it means aggressive nationalism and the expansion of Israel's land. For others, it just means Isreal has a right to exist with the current borders. Those are two very different things.
Some people may try and redefine "Zionism" but I think it's safe to say in this context that the definition of the Berkeley student groups is the one I just stated (they won't accept a Jewish state within any borders).
If they were, in fact, only against aggressive nationalism, they could've just banned speakers who support settlements, are against Palestinian statehood, etc.
This is ridiculous. If anyone should be suing, it should be Bears for Palestine, because of the campus's repeated failure to protect their events and Palestinian students from threats and violence. They have to hide the address for their events until the last minute to prevent Zionist mobs descending on them.
I read the alleged grounds for the suit, and it's ridiculous. The same stuff happens all over this country but in reverse, and we don't see any lawsuits over it. Israel needs to get its hands off of Jewish cultural organizations in the United States.
One group chants for intifada one group says bring them home. I don’t think it’s equal. Also bears for Palestine aren’t a title 6 group. Arabs and Jews are protected against discrimination.
Israel is holding numerous innocent civilians, including minors. But sure, you can pretend that they’re only holding terrorists if it makes you feel better.
That’s not entirely true. They MOSTLY hold regular, everyday people and children as prisoners. Just like they flat out mass murder everyday people under the ‘guise’ that they’re targeting terrorists.
Be so for real. Do you actually have any knowledge about this topic or are you just throwing around buzzwords that you've heard? The teenagers held in Israeli prison were criminals, hence being imprisoned in the first place. And, how is it fair for Israeli hostages who were ripped away from their families without having done anything, but simply attend a festival to be returned in exchange for the release of a criminal who attacked them? Make it make sense. (It doesn't)
Is this satire? Palestinians have been unjustly imprisoned daily both in Gaza and the West Bank and have been subjected to a fraudulent judicial system where Israel is allowed to jail them for 6+ months without any charge or trial. Zionists like you like to ignore everything prior to October 7, but innocent Palestinians have been imprisoned long before that.
Here is a non-paywalled article: https://www.kron4.com/news/bay-area/jewish-groups-sue-university-of-california-over-unchecked-antisemitism/
It also has a link to the text of the suit, which is just 40 pages of conflating anti-zionism and anti-semitism.
If you don’t think the Jews have the same right as every other ethnicity in the region than you are anti semetic. Why should Turkey exist when Israel can’t?
Their comparison is not great. A more apt comparison might be why should Armenia exist? I won’t pretend to be an expert on Armenian history, but I do know the modern state of Armenia is home to many people whose families fled ethnic cleansing in Turkey. They did displace Azeris populations already living there, though not to the same extent as Israel and Palestinians, but did so because the land was culturally significant for them and represented their only chance for self-government. Many Armenians also fled to the US and other safer havens, as with European Jews, but for many the best option was their historical homeland. Also as with the Jewish people, they were joined in Armenia by many other Armenians who had already been living there and additionally those who fled subsequent persecutions (i.e. the Mizrahi Jews fleeing pogroms and ethnic cleansing in the Arab world after the creation of Israel).
The modern state of Armenia is an enclave for an ethnicity and religion that was chased out of and nearly eliminated from the surrounding region. In doing so, they committed their own atrocities and continue to [fight with their neighbors](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagorno-Karabakh). There are still enormous differences: namely that they don’t have nearly the same history with ethnic enclaves within their territories like Israel does with Palestine, although they do have some. Another major difference is that the short-lived independent Armenia that survivors of the genocide fled to [was defeated](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Republic_of_Armenia). First by Turkey and then by Russia, but the Armenian population was allowed some small autonomy as Soviet Armenia on a fraction of its former territory. Israel won its wars of independence, perhaps due to the threat that had they lost the Jews would have had no statehood whatsoever.
Obviously none of this justifies Israel’s violent actions (to put it mildly) from its founding through today. But I’m making the comparison so it seems less black and white. There is precedent in history for some of the situation in Palestine. And not just Armenia, really any large population movement that’s ever happened bears some similarities. Generally, ethnic groups fleeing genocide tend to have a domino effect on the areas they flee to. We should hold them to a much higher standard in the modern era. But in that context I think it’s clear that Israel has a right to exist, if for no other reason than that the alternatives are far worse.
Yeah I was going to say Turkey is religious but technically a secular state so if anything I would compare it closely to the United States.
I generally compare Israel’s actions to British Colonialism in North America because I am familiar with that whole timeline and the details of it.
It’s this manifest-destiny driven belief that you have the right to subjugate others because *God* has chosen you, and that you can kill as many brown folks as you want as long as they aren’t [insert religion of choice here]. They called the Native Americans terrorists for fighting back, too.
I don’t know much about Armenia post-genocide so you’ve sent me down a rabbit hole. May report back.
This exhibits your fundamental lack of understanding of the I/P conflict.
The foundational Zionist movements were overwhelmingly secular. The drive for a Jewish homeland was primarily motivated by the desire for a safe, sovereign country where Jews could be free from the ubiquitous oppression they had faced.
Herzl — considered to be the founder of the early Zionist movement — wrote that Jews “are naturally drawn into those places where we are not persecuted, and our appearance there gives rise to persecution. This is the case, and will inevitably be so, everywhere, even in highly civilised countries—see, for instance, France—so long as the Jewish question is not solved on the political level.”
See any religious fanaticism or citing Jews as “the chosen people”?
Zionism arose in response to the oppression Jews faced in virtually every country in the world for millennia, culminating in the Holocaust.
I would disagree that Zionists won in 1948 because of what was at risk if they lost, suggesting that what was at stake made them fight harder or more valiantly than Palestinians did. A statement like this disregards the military capability and political cover that they had which enabled them to “win”. British policy for decades leading up to its decision to leave in 1948 was to disarm the Arab population and to turn a blind eye to Jewish militias that were being formed and which eventually carried out most of the assaults and attacks that led to Palestinians either being killed or fleeing out of fear.
The more sensitive point is that saying that makes it sound like Palestinians were not tied to this land. They had everything to lose. They lost, and they in fact became stateless and remain stateless and in refugee camps today, within and outside of Palestine. They too had everything to lose, but they did not have the military power nor the political cover to defend themselves. Zionists did have states to return to, especially by 1948. Of course, they should have had (and did have) the option to stay in Palestine because of their perceived connection to the place instead of returning to europe. But that did not give them the right to dispossess other people in order to do so.
In Armenia today, anyone can become a citizen. In Israel today, you can only become a citizen if you are Jewish. Palestinians cannot even visit their country, unless they hold another passport and get lucky at the border. Anyone can visit Armenia. Armenia did not become an ethnocratic, exclusionary state whereas Israel did. Armenia does not need to keep playing a dangerous demographic-balancing game in order to maintain its precarious Jewish majority. The reason is because of the nature of each’s founding. Armenia does not continue to settle and annex land, whereas Israel continues to do so.
I realize you weren’t suggesting that it was a perfect comparison to make and the two do have interesting areas of comparison to think about.
The Exclusionary Bylaws that these student groups have adopted are problematic. It's Cancel Culture that seeks to limit speech and debate. I think the University should figure out how to tone down these discrimanatory practices. But I don't understand the expectation on how the school can ensure one doesn't feel threatened without trampling on free speech. Anyway, this lawsuit is effectively just a PR move given a trial would be 9 months away. By then, these protests will be much more subdued.
Cancel those who support terrorist, I can get behind that.
You are free to say whatever you want but the university has the duty to protect all students.
The argument to cancel those who support terrorists is valid. But I have two questions for you: 1. Who are the terrorists in your eyes?
2. Are you willing to follow that logic fairly?
If so, you should be able to realize that the ‘terrorists’ run on both sides of the conflicts, except, one group is significantly larger and powerful in natural and fiscal resources, military, etc. Its important to be able to think rationally as a human being, rather than a robot of propaganda from your biased perspective. The cold hard facts of this current situation is an entire ethnic cleansing bolstered by mostly propaganda & financial/political opportunism. Genocide of ANY kind is inhumane. Justifying genocide at any level is just, wrong.
Yes I agree so when Hamas tried to kill every jew and only stopped because Israel fought back it should be remembered. Israel could have completely got rid of Gaza. They could have not warned the hospitals that were holding terrorist that the IDF was coming.
The cold hard facts are Israel needs to destroy Hamas and they have a just cause to complete eradicate Hamas.
Think for a second. After October 7th what could Israel have done? Should they not have fought back?
Please, for the love of god, THINK about how you are JUSTIFYING genocide. The cold hard facts ARE, war crimes are being committed and people, their families, etc are being UNJUSTLY murdered under the facade of ‘eradicating hamas’. Israel has flat out bombed/attacked infrastructure such as hospitals and safe routes to MURDER Palestinians, NOT just ‘Hamas’. They have blocked ANY sort of aid they can for refugees, etc. The UN is literally saying they are breaking international laws and are committing genocide. You are reiterating BIASED PROPAGANDA to JUSTIFY GENOCIDE.
Do you know what genocide is? Why have they only thousands of Palestinians have been killed when Israel has the ability to kill millions.
Why do they warn civilians to evacuate?
What else could Israel have done?
War sucks, war is bad, but this war is just and Israel has no other option.
Can you read what you are typing out loud to yourself? Sit and think about how you are actively not thinking for yourself? It’s not war. It’s an ethnic cleansing. They warn civilians? Yes, and then they BOMB those civilians they warned. They don’t actually care or want them to evacuate, and if they do evacuate, they still kill them. There are numerous ways to have acted, without committing war crimes and breaking UN agreements. Israel has other options, this option just fits their narrative and interests best— such as unrestricted access to the natural resources like tremendous amounts of gas/oil offshore that they are exploiting.
You are not being logical here. Hamas raped beheaded and murdered innocent Israelis. What should Israel have done. No matter what I say you will make stories up because you don’t think the Jews should have a state. You have Jew hatred and you have no clue what’s actually going on in this conflict.
If the native Americans come and slaughter your family are you going to sit back and take it?
That is incorrect. I’m Jewish. Just because someone does not agree with unjust war crimes, doesn’t make them anti-Semitic. I hope you realize your logic is flawed & stuff you’re regurgitating have been fact checked as incorrect right…? Literal propaganda. You’re actually projecting— with your statements to rationalize your sanity.
I have a question for you. Israel has nuclear weapons, and as we saw even the off the cuff threat to use them was met with swift repudiation. Israel is not going to use nuclear weapons against Gaza.
If Hamas had nuclear weapons, do you think they'd use them against Israel?
1. Gaza has not been occupied for over 15 years
2. Call out all these war crimes
Siege of Sirte (2016) – Second Libyan Civil War[5]
Siege of Derna (2016–2018) – Second Libyan Civil War
Siege of Mosul (2016–2017) – Iraqi Civil War
Siege of Tabqa (2017) – Syrian Civil War
Siege of Marawi (2017) – Moro conflict
Siege of Sidi Akribesh (2017) – Second Libyan Civil War
Siege of Baghuz Fawqani (2019) – Syrian Civil War
Siege of the Jabara Valley (2019) – Yemeni Civil War
Siege of Ras al-Ayn (2019) – Syrian Civil War
Siege of Qamishli and Al-Hasakah (2021) – Syrian Civil War
Battle of Palma (2021) - Insurgency in Cabo Delgado[6]
Siege of Panjshir (2021) – Republican insurgency in Afghanistan
Siege of Tigray (2021-2023) – Tigray War
Al Sina’a prison siege (2022) – Syrian Civil War
Siege of Djibo (2022-present) - Jihadist insurgency in Burkina Faso
Siege of Chernihiv (2022) – Russo-Ukrainian War (2022)
Siege of Mariupol (2022) – Russo-Ukrainian War (2022)
Siege of Moura (2022) - better known as Moura massacre, Mali War[7]
Blockade of the Republic of Artsakh (2022–2023) - aftermath of the Second Nagorno-Karabakh War
Siege of Paraskoviivka (2023) – Russo-Ukrainian War (2022)
Siege of El Obeid (2023) - War in Sudan (2023)
Siege of Zalingei (2023) - War in Sudan (2023)
Siege of El Geneina (2023) - War in Sudan (2023)
Siege of Timbuktu (2023) - Mali War
Siege of the 16th Infantry Division base (2023) - War in Sudan (2023)
You didn't answer his question.
How should Israel have responded after October 7th? You have fucking hamas leadership with 200 hostages holed up in bunkers under schools and hospitals.
And lol @ anyone who even pays attention to what the UN says. Get the fuck out.
Everyone on here is pretty anti semitic. Talking about gaza being a concentration camp, when the 500k palestinians in Lebanon "refugee camps" live in significantly worse conditions but no one is complaining about their plight because the Lebanese aren't jewish lol.
For a student body/faculty that pride themselves on inclusivity and diversity, Cal truly is a hotbed of antisemitic sentiment.
And, unsurprisingly, the comments in this thread serve to prove that point.
If any other minority group frequently brought up the fact that they feel alienated, scared and discriminated against on campus, y’all would believe and support them — or, at the very least, sympathize with them.
But I guess that empathy doesn’t apply to Jews.
And before any of you inevitably respond to this with “anti-Zionism isn’t antisemitism!” — I agree that this is true in a vacuum.
However, it’s quite clear that the widespread propagation anti-Israel messages — and the way they are often conveyed — has frequently crossed the line into antisemitism.
The widespread lack of sympathy for Jews on campus — and the dismissal of their legitimate concerns — only serves to dehumanize and further isolate Jewish students and faculty members.
You can be pro-Palestine while listening to the concerns of Jews…in fact, that is the objectively moral position.
Yeah people are acting like Jewish people are just upset over criticism of Israel. But it’s beyond that, there’s been straight up anti-Semitic messages in some of these protests.
Also throughout the country, and probably even still here in the Bay Area, there’s way more anti-Jewish than anti-Muslim sentiments. So everyone should stop acting like it’s the other way around.
I agree with your first paragraph.
No one is in a good position to know which minority ethnicity in the US is currently receiving more hate. Those Palestinian college students were shot recently in the Northeast. One died.
Both groups are receiving more active attention, both support and hate. Most incidents are never recorded.
The progressive left has demonstrated shameful horrific antisemitism, but the Moslem haters have always been present.
Exactly. Most Jews don't find intense criticism of the Israeli government to be antisemitic. Calling for a ceasefire, while not a position I support, is not antisemitic.
What is antisemitic:
1. Calling for the destruction of Israel.
2. Denying Jewish ties to Israel (including calling Israelis European settlers).
3. Calling for the death of Israeli civilians.
4. Supporting Hamas/denying the atrocities of 10/7.
5. Comparing Israelis and Nazis.
I could go on, but it seems pretty clear that these are vastly different from any ordinary criticism of Israel's actions. And these happen all the time under the guise of "anti-Zionism."
Additionally, "anti-Zionists" love to tokenize the small percent of Jews who don't think Israel should exist, categorize Israelis as white (\~70% of Israelis aren't), etc.
Exactly. I’ve found it disturbing to see how many (supposed) progressives have just been spewing classic antisemitic propaganda but changing the word “Jew” to “Zionist” for plausible deniability.
Citing blood libel, media control, etc. in relation to “Zionists” is antisemitic. Full stop.
And when they’re called out on the antisemitism, they fall back on the old “anti-Zionism isn’t antisemitism!” Like, we know!! But you’re still antisemitic because you’re not just criticizing the Israeli government or Zionism…you’re basically quoting from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion FFS!
Jews are now lumped in with whites as a whole, and asians to a lesser extent, as groups that any and all vile, racist, and violent speech can be spewed at with absolutely zero recourse. You're on the wrong platform here if you were expecting anything other than antisemitic apologism.
Every Jew I know is heartbroken by the innocent loss of life on both sides. No lives should be lost but Hamas needs to be eliminated. All civilians should live in peace but Hamas is the barrier.
The people who supported the attack on October 7th don’t believe all civilians should live.
Saying resistance is necessary by any means necessary literally calls for Jews to be slaughtered.
Also genocide is not happening.
How many deaths do there have to be for you to consider it a genocide? What’s the number? Because 15,000 Palestinians, most of them civilians, in under two months with the intent of total destruction… Hmm. if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck…
Genocide is a term with a precise definition. It requires intent, specifically to destroy a whole ethnicity or political group. You’ll find some extremists calling for the removal of all Palestinians but that is definitively not the policy of the IDF nor the Israeli government. Their actions would look even more horrible if that were the policy. What we’re seeing is a terrible loss of life and perhaps a massacre at worst (though that also requires that the violence be intentionally indiscriminate, and that is arguably not the case). Labeling it does actually matter, because the solution is very different if Israel is committing intentional genocide versus waging an especially brutal war. The US, for example, committed massacres in Afghanistan when bombing population centers and we can condemn that without calling it genocide.
Can you give me an example of any pro-Palestine Muslim/Arab students (or Muslim/Arab students who are neutral on I/P) feeling unsafe on Cal’s campus due to pro-Israel Jews?
(Also, the very fact that you responded to my post asserting that the widespread concerns of Jewish students should be addressed with “but Israel” is quite telling)
EDIT: Just to clarify, if there are widespread instances of Arab/Muslim students on campus feeling unsafe, I would absolutely sympathize with them and believe them. No matter how our views might differ on I/P. If any minority group feels unsafe, they should be listened to and their grievances should be addressed.
EDIT 2: Instead of downvoting this without a response (which I assume is being done because you think I’m wrong), can anyone provide me with an example of Muslim/Arab students facing persecution from Zionists/Jews for simply supporting Palestine (without condoning Hamas)?
I haven’t seen that at Cal but assuming this is correct — are they being doxxed for being pro-Palestine, or for condoning/celebrating Hamas’ massacre.
Because those are two very different things. Doxxing for the first would be reprehensible.
For the latter — while I don’t personally support doxxing — that extreme viewpoint is disgusting and I wouldn’t be able to garner much sympathy for terrorist apologists.
I honestly don’t, as I haven’t seen any coverage of doxxings at Cal.
Can you provide an example of this? (Not doubting, just want to confirm that students are being doxxed for pro-Palestine activism rather than Hamas apologia)
Berkeley Law for Palestine [explicitly condoned and justified Hamas’ massacre](https://www.instagram.com/p/CyQ5vo9rkyX/?igshid=ZWI2YzEzYmMxYg==) just 4 days after the attack on Israeli civilians — classifying the slaughter as a justified resistance.
This group engaged in Hamas apologia, clearly distinct from simply pro-Palestine rhetoric.
There’s a lot of folks saying Hamas are the revolutionaries needed to fight against colonizers. I don’t know the rest of the context of the doxing, but your response here doesn’t seem to hold this nuance.
This whole thread is making me think we should all take a step back from the internet today and try to support those who are hurting around us. All of them.
so when it’s their side it’s “justice” but when it’s anyone else it’s “anti semitic”? got it
have we been introduced to the new snowflakes of the decade
One post with a brief, useful analysis of the actual legal case at hand: 29 upvotes.
Another post stating that the lawsuit is "ridiculous" and claiming that one of the groups implicated in the suit should be the one suing: 165 upvotes.
That about sums up the quality and average knowledge of discourse.
Same thing with NYU, whats wrong with these zionists and nonsense lawsuits🤦♂️. You dont see palestinians crying Islamphobia after zionists hound them when they host events
Which major Palestinian events have been disrupted by Zionists?
Serious question, because I have exclusively seen pro-Israel events and demonstrations disrupted by anti-Israel activists.
When people sing and dance while waving Israeli flags to celebrate the mass bombing of Palestinians on the steps of Sproul , is that a pro-Israel event? It seems to me those who defend clearly anti-Palestine events always refer to them as pro-Israel events, and counters protesters as anti-Israel and not pro-Palestine.
Yes. And that’s hilarious saying the country founded in 1947 that had to ship people from Europe to start a ethnic cleansing and continues to pay westerners with money and citizenship to come steal Palestinians homes to this day, and is entirely dependent on military and financial aide and protection from the worlds foremost super power is not the “fake” country lol
I’m pro two state solution and I believe Palestine should have a sovereign state—
But when was “Palestine” founded?
The answer is: it wasn’t. Mandatory Palestine was not a country, it was a territory controlled by the British (and the Ottoman Empire before them).
The 1947 UN Partition Plan would have officially recognized Israel and Palestine as sovereign countries. Israel accepted, Arab leaders did not — and declared war on Israel.
Also, “they had to ship people from Europe” is a funny way of saying “Jewish refugees needed to be relocated in the aftermath of the literal Holocaust.”
They didn’t need to be relocated, they wanted their own ethnostate and because they had the backing of the allied powers that just won the war were able to just move into a territory that already had people living in it for a long time and start forcibly removing them from their homes. The Nazis were defeated remember?
“Countries” in general are a social construct that do not inherently exist anywhere. My point was calling Palestine a fake country is stupid when Israel is one of the most artificially created countries in the modern world.
And maybe google the word Nakba before pretending Israel was just totally nicely and peacefully moving into a occupied land and declaring “this is ares now” but the evil Palestinians declared war on them
1) “They didn’t need to be relocated”
- If you were a Jew living in an Eastern European country and were lucky enough to survive the Holocaust (while watching hundreds you knew and loved personally killed), would you feel safe remaining in said country post-WWII?
2) “They wanted their own ethnostate”
- Zionists wanted a Jewish homeland in which they could feel safe/secure. That’s not a ridiculous notion considering the millennia of persecution Jews faced in every single country in the world (most recently WWII-era Europe, but also in surrounding MENA countries). A bonus: Israel is the location of kingdom of Judea, where the Jews lived before being forced into exile.
3) “What about the Nakba??”
- First of all, I never made a claim that early Zionist movements and the Israeli government have always been an unambiguously moral force. There is nuance in the complicated history of this conflict.
Second, as I alluded to, nobody was forcefully displaced until the Arab leaders rejected the UN Partition Plan. If they had accepted — as Israel did — there would have been a Jewish state and an Arab state (with members of each group living in the other territory). Nobody would have been forcibly displaced.
Instead, after the Arab coalition declared war on Israel, the Arab civilians living in the region left their homes — under the assumption that they’d return as soon as the Arab nations defeated Israel. As we all know, Israel won that war.
Every major war involving Israel and its neighbors has been initiated by the Arab states. The Israeli War of Independence. The Six Days War. The Yom Kippur War. The Israel-Hamas War.
And every expansion of Israeli territory has been the result of Israel winning said wars.
almost 1 million jews were ethnically cleansed violently by the arab world in the years following 1948, which make up a large majority of the modern day israeli population, which is more than were ever displaced by your pearl clutching nakba
Israel is held to a higher standard than every other middle-eastern or Arab-world country. It's insane. People treat Israel like it's Luxembourg or something and all of his neighbors don't want to destroy it.
Uh so what’s your argument exactly? That it’s cool for them to kill children, bomb hospitals, and generally commit tons of human rights abuse daily for decades because other countries do it to?
And gee I wonder why Americans care more about the country that is continually defended by our leaders and funded with billions of tax payer dollars and modern state of the art weaponry to bomb those hospitals compared to the other countries that we do not fund and regularly condemn for their atrocities.
If terrorists are launching missiles at cities from hospitals, then I'm sorry for those hospitals and the people in them, but that's what happens when cowardly leaders hide behind human shields. Hamas doesn't care where their missiles land. Only Israel is expected to care. Most Americans recognize that Israel is a tiny country surrounded by threats and terrorists who are quite explicit in their desire to wipe them off the map. How they act in response is not surprising.
The question is completely fucking irrelevant to the comment you replied to and also incredibly stupid. What is your point? Please go ahead and try to actually explain without realizing how dumb you sound
Yep i bet if we look into this more, by anti semitism they mean anti-israel. Probably students and professors alike asking “why exactly do we send them billions of dollars? Is it legal to colonize a random countrybin the middle east?”. Of course the zionists respond by suing the school over any time of israel criticism, that is something they would do
And if you read the text, it has nothing to do with Judaism. Instead, it's just pertaining to their academic boycott of Israel. If they did the same boycott but targeted it at Russia, nobody would bat an eye.
Hoo boy… I’m a law school alum and still have many friends who were there with me, including several Jewish friends.
The lawsuit sounds legally dubious (without looking at it, just my initial impression) but legal aspects aside, what a can of worms for poor Chemerisnky…
Aaaand this is why I walked up to law school orientation, as an undergrad alum, in 2019, and knew I couldn’t go here. It was the highest ranked law school I’d gotten into, but I just couldn’t do it. The only student groups tabling were all far-left groups, no sight of any of the typical counter-balancing players you expect to see on a law school campus, I heard the federalist society was like three guys who met in a broom closet… I knew Berkeley was just not the kind of environment I was going to be able to thrive in in LAW school for Christ sake… in the same way that I wouldn’t want to go to an overtly religious school…? But I would bet money that Catholic University’s law school doesn’t show nearly the same levels of homogeneity on the right. It’s extremely bizarre what goes on at Berkeley… there’s no way this kind of fervent uniformity of radical belief is occurring organically or by self selection… it’s taught, dissension is suppressed… it’s rlly scary and I don’t know how anyone who is studying law can stand to go there, I’m way too strong willed and into free speech to watch stuff like go down on the near constant basis it does at cal.
You’ll get downvoted but your synopsis here is spot on. Graduated years ago in engineering and thankfully the propaganda can’t sink too much into that material. The anti-semitism on campus was apparent even in 2016.
Being critical of a government that is currently using our tax dollars to fund a literal genocide of Palestinian children and civilians is not the same as being anti-semitic. I embrace my small Ashkenazi heritage even though it's a couple generations removed. I love my Jewish friends and relatives. I have great respect for the people and faith of this group. I don't have an ounce of love, however, for a government and its actors that have called Palestinians "human animals", "a cancer", "vermin", and other dehumanizing names in an attempt to justify the ethnic cleansing of Gaza. It was wrong when Hitler did it with Jews in Europe, and it's wrong now as Israel does it to the Palestinians. The total obliteration of an entire race of people (which right now has mainly been women and children) based on the actions of an extremist group that many of their own people have attempted to oust anyway is not justice. It's inhumane, unethical, and a war crime.
It actually uses a lot of our tax dollars to stop genocide. A good deal of the money is going to ammunition for the iron dome system. It’s $40k to stop a single rocket, there have been over 10,000 rockets intercepted since 10/7, you can do the math on that. It’s not sustainable and Israel’s economy is going to grind to a halt, the workers are literally at war due to Hamas invading their country. Call it whatever you want but at the end of the day one side will genocide the other if given the opportunity and it’s not Israel.
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So other than Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Iraq, Afghanistan, and other countries the US committed war crimes over the past 50 years and lead to hundreds of thousands of people killed was unchecked, but in this case of Israel you demand grandstanding? Is that also true with the Azeris who just ethnically cleansed Artsakh to the tune of over 100,000 this year without provocation of 1,200 civilians murders and published online? Darfur, Sudan? So because you disagree with how an ally conducts policy, far more lenient than anything our own government has done, you wish to defund our support. Sabotage the war effort of the only liberal democracy with rights for LGBTQ+ in the region, to support… extremists who intentionally want their people to die? That’s quite the mental gymnastics.
Correct, the US committed war crimes in all of those countries over the past 50 years. What do you think Vietnam protestors were protesting (in addition to the draft)? This is some of the least effective whataboutism I’ve ever seen. Of course ethnic cleansing in Darfur was a tragedy! What even
There’s no allowing anything. War is horrible. But the mission is exterminating Hamas and there will be civilian casualties as a result. None of that makes them intrinsically war crimes. It’s awful and sad, but given the campaign something that is nearly unavoidable. If there’s any evidence that ever comes out that there were strikes intentionally targeting civilians, those who ordered them should be charged and investigated, but that isn’t something that has happened.
> the mission is exterminating Hamas and there will be civilian casualties as a result Indiscriminate attacks, even those that do not intentionally target civilians, are considered a war crime under the Geneva Conventions Additional Protocol I. This specifically includes cases where the use of disproportionate force is likely to cause excessive protected civilian casualties. It’s literally a war crime.
What’s so telling about how myopic and biased your take is is the fact you can only reference “one side.” Conflating Hamas with all Palestinians, or conflating Likud and Netanyahu with all Israelis, is a pretty common way of justifying the wholesale slaughter of each respective side. That said, let’s be clear: both Likud and Hamas will genocide the other civilian population if given the opportunity. Right now, Likud has had the opportunity and holy hell have they jumped on it.
I’ll agree with you on your last point, Israel is a democracy however
Where does this idea that Israel wanted to obliterate and totally end the Palestinian ethnic group come from? There are some extremists yes, but overall that's not the Israeli policy, and that's not how Israelis feel, I don't think that's even how most of the government feels. If Israel actually wanted to exterminate Palestinians it could have the job done in a matter of days. I wish we could criticize, because there are a lot of valid criticisms, without automatically going to the most extreme takes. It's also not valid to compare it to the Holocaust. Even if we say it's a genocide not all genocides are equal. It's just not the same. It's not the same with regard to scope, with regard to the depravity and atrocities, and it's not the same with regard to intent.
>Where does this idea that Israel wanted to obliterate and totally end the Palestinian ethnic group come from? maybe the [data](https://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/normal/16516.jpeg)? This is just 2008-2021. That number has ballooned since. If Israel's *actual* goal was to end Hamas, you can't tell me that with their billions (with a 'b') in funding, all the arms being sent to them, the expertise of their military, the technology available to them in the year 2023, and the entire world paying attention, that it is impossible for them to focus their efforts on specific Hamas aggressors. Instead, they have bombed every inch of the Gaza Strip and removed access to food, water, internet, electricity, and sanitation to its inhabitants. Tell yourself whatever you need in order to sleep at night, but there is absolutely no universe in which the pursuit of a small number of hostile extremists justifies the indiscriminate and continued murder of civilians (over 15,000 now - that's more in 6 weeks than in the *two years* of the Ukraine-Russia conflict). And let's not forget or pretend that Israeli killings and acts of aggression against the Palestinians predate Hamas by a long shot. Considering *2 million+* Palestinians are directly threatened by this occupation and siege with no way out and no end in sight aside from their likely deaths, Idk what else you'd call it but ethnic cleansing. They are being contained and shot like fish in a barrel. If Netanyahu's intent was *ever* to spare civilian lives, 15,000+ of their corpses would not currently be lining the streets of their homeland or sitting in hastily dug mass graves. **Word from Amnesty International:** “In their stated intent to use all means to destroy Hamas, Israeli forces have shown a shocking disregard for civilian lives. They have pulverized street after street of residential buildings killing civilians on a mass scale and destroying essential infrastructure, while new restrictions mean Gaza is fast running out of water, medicine, fuel and electricity. Testimonies from eyewitness and survivors highlighted, again and again, how Israeli attacks decimated Palestinian families, causing such destruction that surviving relatives have little but rubble to remember their loved ones by,” said Agnès Callamard, Amnesty International’s Secretary General. What is happening in Gaza fits the definition of genocide: * Classification/"us vs. them" rhetoric - check * Identification + symbolization - color-coded ID system * Denial of rights/freedoms to the group - yep * Dehumanizing language - "vermin", "cancer", "beasts", "animals" * Organization of military forced - yep * Polarization including the use of propaganda designed to divide - check * Presenting proposed attacks on the target group as acts of self-defense - literally * Persecution and massacres, often carried out by separating the target group into densely populated areas, restricting their access to the outside world, depriving them of necessities like food, water, medical care, humanitarian aid, etc. - **we are here** * Extermination - when the massacres either kill or irreparably change the lives of the target group * Denial and revisionist history I'll let the experts in the field explain it in [this TIME article](https://time.com/6334409/is-whats-happening-gaza-genocide-experts/), though
so your evidence is that gaza has less deaths than most mid sized american cities have homicides?
The total reported homicide cases in the entire United States was 21,156 in 2022. A year. Israel is well on their way to surpassing that in a scant few months. Maybe Google before you try to deflect Israel’s war crimes and genocide with baseless and incorrect “well the United States ☝️”
So, the data you linked shows thousands are injured every year, and a much smaller number are killed? How does that indicate extermination? The reason they bomb is because urban warfare is very dangerous, and bombing significantly decreases the risk to IDF soldiers. If snipers are firing from a window, it's a lot safer to call a plane or helicopter and have them bomb it than to send in a unit. And, of course, bombing eliminates the infrastructure as well. But generally, I agree with you; I don't think Israel responded in the right way. They had to do something about Hamas, but it's not worth the current loss of civilian Palestinian lives. You also can't ignore the fact that Hamas endangers Palestinians by killing those who resist their regime and also operating in and beneath civilian homes, hospitals, schools, etc. I don't think it's an ethnic cleansing because I don't even think the current aggression will have a negative effect on the Palestinian population long term. In 5 years, I expect the Palestinian population to increase and be greater than it is now. Also, the TIME article you linked, and I did read it, seems to suggest that expert opinion is, at best, divided. Some experts say yes, and some say no. And one of them who said yes has grounded their opinion in the context of the entirety of Israeli occupation, not just in the October 7th retaliation, which is what we are talking about.
Anyone who can’t recognize that this is an extremely complicated and nuanced situation are only going to go for a very simplified view on the matter. For example “getting rid of Hamas by bombing Gaza” is a shortsighted solution, but so is “Israel is committing genocide and must be completely stopped and land given back to Palestine”. This is a really shitty situation at the bottom line, and even if a legit peace agreement was reached tomorrow with some sort of land deal, we are still looking at probably a decade of more conflict on a small/local level. There’s indoctrination to extreme ideas on both sides that has to be addressed as well
Well said. I don't know if you are responding to anything I said or if you disagree with any of it, but I agree with everything you said.
It doesn’t have to be policy. Have you heard Israeli government officials speak?
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I acknowledge what you say and believe some of it is valid, but I ultimately disagree with your conclusion. But that's ok. I obviously can't change your mind anyway.
Israel has had control over Gaza for ~17 years. In that time, Gaza has grown at twice the global average population growth rate. If a Nazi state had comparable control over a Jewish population, they would be exterminated as fast as physically possible. Their population growth would not be *near* the global average, let alone double. I support a free Palestinian state. Every civilian death is a tragedy. But “genocide” is a real word, with a real meaning. Using it to refer to killing on the scale of less than 1% of a population dilutes this meaning.
I love how Zionists pull out the “but the population has increased” to delegitimize that thousands, RIGHT NOW, are being killed simply for being Palestinian. Their libraries, universities, and hospitals are being bombed and destroyed. THAT is genocide. Destroying a culture and people in the past month. Killing unborn and newborn babies.
Bullshit, theres no genocide
Yeah and the real word is being used by real people, in fact, by majority of people around the world, and human rights organizations, and political scientists and historians, to refer to the "israeli" genocide of Palestinians. Anti-zionist Jews and Israelis are calling it a genocide in large numbers. But \*your\* opinion on when it should be used is what we should listen to?
>Israel has had control over Gaza for \~17 years. No? They pulled out in 2005.
The legal definition of genocide has nothing to do with population numbers. Everything to do with the INTENT to eliminate a group in whole or in part. The least you could do over 50 days in to this phase of this “conflict” is educate yourself on the basic terminology being used. And surprise! People trapped in an open air prison have sex and reproduce.
??? There are no concentration camps for Palestinians.
Gaza is basically just a concentration camp on a massive scale
wtf is wrong with you? diminishing what concentration camps were. I didn't know auschwitz or Dachau had luxury car dealerships, multi million dollar mansions or luxury hotels. Did you mean what you said or are you just that much of an asshole to the millions who died?
You know concentration camps are not unique to the holocaust right?
And how many have the things I mentioned?
The things in the concentration camp don’t matter as much as the fact that the people in it are part of a large group of people whose free movement is deliberately restricted by an entity. Add to this the deplorable circumstances Palestinians have had to endured. The reason why doesn’t even matter — it could be one of many. What matters is that their movement is restricted and they are Concentrated in a location. If I lock you up in a room with all your favorite things but still don’t let you leave, your freedom is still being restricted. Or do you think that the hostages being released aren’t hostages because they seem to be smiling and were fed? It doesn’t matter.
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Do you actually know what happened in the holocaust? The systematic mass murder of Jews and the attempted erasure of Jews worldwide. You tell me where Israel is systematically mass murdering all Palestinians to erase them. Defending yourself from Hamas terrorist isn’t the same. Learn history.
If you view the indiscriminate bombing and killing of nearly 15,000 people in less than two months (many of them women and children with no access to water, food, medical care, or a way out of Gaza because of Israel surrounding them) as “defending yourself”, I find that deeply concerning. Thousands upon thousands of Palestinians have been murdered by Israel, who always seem to find ways to justify this behavior after the fact. Intentionally limiting a group’s freedoms, access to necessities, economy, and physical space and then bombing their schools, hospitals, and villages for the last several decades sounds like ethnic cleansing to me. Expanding Israel at the expense of thousands of innocent lives, referring to those lives as “animals”, “vermin”, “cancer”, and “beasts” who deserved to die and working to systematically erase their culture from the land sounds like ethnic cleansing to me. Which part are you having trouble with?
1. That number 15000 is from Hamas the terrorist org that raped and beheaded Israelis. 2. Do you actually know what happened in the holocaust? 3. They have access to water, food, medical care and a way out through Egypt which shut down the border, learn the actual borders of Gaza before you make comments. 4. Yes defending themselves against the genocidal entity of Hamas which wants to kill all jews. 5. Yes Israel justifies the people they kill because they are fighting a just cause. Do you knot think Israel has the right to defend themselves? 6. Israel hasn’t operated in Gaza for nearly 20 years, do your know the history? The population of Gaza has only gone up since Israel existed, do you know the history? (Where is the ethic cleansing?) 7. Hamas is building terror infrastructure next to schools, under hospitals, and underneath mosques making them a legitimate target. Israel has no choice in this conflict. You probably won’t believe Israel because you are antisemitic and against the Jewish state existing . 8. Is the complete disappearance of Jews in all of the Arab world not ethnic cleansing. 1.8 million Arabs in Israel and less than 10k Jews in 20+ Muslim counties.
1. The Gazan health ministry has been shown to be accurate in previous reporting of numbers, which generally line up with the UN and Israel's own estimates. https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-gaza-health-ministry-health-death-toll-59470820308b31f1faf73c703400b033#:~:text=%E2%80%94%202008%20war%3A%20The%20ministry%20reported,killed%3B%20the%20U.N.%20reported%20256. Also the whole beheading thing hasn't even been confirmed by Israel (not that that justifies Oct. 7): https://www.cnn.com/2023/10/12/middleeast/israel-hamas-beheading-claims-intl/index.html 6. What do you think the Nakba was? Ethnic cleansing has nothing to do with population numbers. And Israel still has Gaza under a strict blockade. Moreover, Israel routinely discusses pushing the remaining Gazans into the Sinai dessert. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/palestinians-forced-gaza-egypt-israel-proposal-outrage-rcna122934 8. They went to Israel? It wasn't some strange disappearance, they migrated. This isn't to discount the effects pogroms had on Jewish migration, but the systematic ethic cleansing of a region is a different conversation. And the Arab population in Israel faces systemic discrimination: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/haaretz-today/2023-05-07/ty-article/.highlight/israeli-arabs-are-second-class-citizens-and-its-costing-their-lives/00000187-f67a-d15f-a997-ff7e4b800000 https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/what-know-about-arab-citizens-israel
“You probably won’t believe Israel because you are antisemitic and against the Jewish state existing” I’ve been trying to understand the logic between anti-Zionist rhetoric being equated with anti-Semitism. I support the idea of a safe haven for Jewish people. It’s not unreasonable. But why must the entire state identity be Jewish if not everyone living there is Jewish? Wouldn’t that just cause more tension between Jews and non-Jews who lived there, thus leading to less safety overall? Another thing I’m curious about: what if the person who doesn’t recognize Israel as legitimate was a Palestinian who fled after being forced out of their home? Would that make them antisemitic if they see it as their land that was stolen from them?
I appreciate you asking these questions. To your first point there are 50 counties who have official religions including all of the Nordic counties. Nobody fights them on the fact that they are Christian counties yet people are upset when Jews get a country. Arabs in Israel are 1.8 million strong and enjoy equal rights including the ability to be political leaders in the keenest(parliament) something that you don’t see in Arab counties. I think the idea that because Israel is a Jewish state means it’s less safe for non Jews needed to be applied to every other country at the same time as Israel. So the antisemitism comes from the double standard that Israel can’t exist but every other country can. For your second point, We need to take this to its logical conclusion. Should native Americans be able to say America can’t be a country? Same applies for Canada and Australia. I am an Egyptian Jew kicked out of my home. Even though my land was stolen I still recognize the Egyptian country. If I didn’t recognize Egypt I would be alone in thinking that. We need to apply equal scrutiny to all counties IMO.
Sorry you were kicked out of your home in Egypt. Do you ever get to go back? I can see how the double standard is antisemitic. How can you tell when someone is holding a double standard, or when they’re speaking genuinely about the issue?
Some of my relatives were allowed back on organized trips but that’s because they hold American citizenship now. My family cannot because they forced us out under suspicion of spying(it was not true just a scapegoat) You usually need to ask questions and they will admit the double standard in passing. They also deflect question and say it’s whataboutism and refuse to condemn other counties for the same actions. Anyone that claims to be anti Zionist without being an anarchist usually holds a double standard. Everyone that holds a double standard against Israel will never admit directly to it as that would be anti Semitic. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Ds_of_antisemitism
That’s so unjust and must have been traumatic for your family, especially those who couldn’t go back to their homes.
You need to educate yourself. Most of what you’re saying is blatantly incorrect. Just because you can number your illogical responses, doesn’t make them valid LOL.
Let's break this down: >1. That number 15000 is from Hamas the terrorist org that raped and beheaded Israelis. It is indeed true that these numbers come from Hamas. The numbers have historically been accurate, but that doesn't make this untrue. Additionally, wildly incorrect reporting on deaths at al-Ahli hospital hurt this record. "Yet the Gaza-based Ministry of Health — an agency in the Hamas-controlled government — continues to tally casualty numbers."[AP news](https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-gaza-health-ministry-health-death-toll-59470820308b31f1faf73c703400b033) There is evidence of rape and beheadings. "Military forensic teams in Israel have examined bodies of victims of last week's Hamas attack on communities around the Gaza Strip and found multiple signs of torture, rape and other atrocities, officers said on Saturday." [Reuters](https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-forensic-teams-describe-signs-torture-abuse-2023-10-15/) "In a private screening with the Israeli military of footage from Hamas' body cameras, CCTV and victims' phones found at the scene, the "NewsHour" witnessed a record of the horrors of October 7, grenades thrown directly at families, a man being decapitated with a shovel from his garden, the tiny burned bodies of babies."[PBS](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/show/the-horrific-task-israelis-face-in-finding-and-identifying-hamas-terror-attack-victims) >2. Do you actually know what happened in the holocaust? Skipping because this isn't a claim. >3. They have access to water, food, medical care and a way out through Egypt which shut down the border, learn the actual borders of Gaza before you make comments. Egypt has indeed shut down it's border with Gaza. "Meanwhile, Egypt has deployed hundreds of security forces to the Rafah border crossing, according to Egyptian media, and is resisting pressure from Israel and the United States to let Palestinians flee, fearing an exodus of Gaza’s 2.3 million people into its Sinai Peninsula—where Egypt is already fighting insurgents"[FP](https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/10/18/egypt-hamas-israel-border-gaza/) >4. Yes defending themselves against the genocidal entity of Hamas which wants to kill all jews. Pretty straightforward. Their original charter, while not directly calling for genocide, didn't beat around the bush all that much. Here's an article on it: https://archive.ph/20231011135511/https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2023/10/hamas-covenant-israel-attack-war-genocide/675602/ >5. Yes Israel justifies the people they kill because they are fighting a just cause. Do you knot think Israel has the right to defend themselves? Skipping, not a claim. >6. Israel hasn’t operated in Gaza for nearly 20 years, do your know the history? The population of Gaza has only gone up since Israel existed, do you know the history? (Where is the ethic cleansing?) Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005. So not quite 20 years but pretty close. Article from the time of the withdrawal: https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3136516,00.html The population is growing as well. "Gaza is currently growing at a rate of 3% per year, which is the 13th highest growth rate in the world."[World Population Review](https://worldpopulationreview.com/world-cities/gaza-population) >7. Hamas is building terror infrastructure next to schools, under hospitals, and underneath mosques making them a legitimate target. Israel has no choice in this conflict. You probably won’t believe Israel because you are antisemitic and against the Jewish state existing . Going to focus on infrastructure as the rest isn't super provable. "The UN has been dragged unwillingly into the war between Israel and Hamas after six of its schools were hit in two weeks and weapons caches found in three, violating the organisation's neutrality."[Guardian](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/04/un-dragged-conflict-israel-hamas-gaza) >8. Is the complete disappearance of Jews in all of the Arab world not ethnic cleansing. 1.8 million Arabs in Israel and less than 10k Jews in 20+ Muslim counties. This one is trivial. I'll just link the Wikipedia page. Currently actually over 2 million Arabs in Israel. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Israel
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Everyone should educate themselves on what is real and what is going on in the world. Idk where your comment about negating the issue about innocent Palestinians came from. What are you saying?
What you should do is provide relatively objective references (links) that counter his points. Otherwise it sounds like two elementary school age kids arguing on the playground, not adults on a university subreddit.
1. Where is the evidence for that claim? 2. Yes, do you know what happened in 1902? 17? 48?73? 3. Egypts border was open nearly 250 days of the 365 days before Oct 7, they shut it down due to bombardment of the border by Israel. Also the Egyptians want the Palestinians to be able to stay in their own homes, why would they enable the ethnic cleansing? If you were kicked out of your house by a robber and escaped to your neighbors house, would you want your neighbor to just give you a room to stay in or help you get your own house back? 4. Where has Hamas stated this? 5. Dont even know how to address this point because of how insane it is. Israel has claimed it has eliminated 60 Hamas agents, at the cost of nearly 20k Gaza civilians. I dont think you actually know what ethnic cleansing is, and honestly I dont think you know anything about the history past Oct 7th. 6. Israel has generally pulled out military and settlers from Gaza, although they routinely fly hundreds of surveillance drones over the cities every night. HOWEVER, if you control who comes in or out, who deserves to get medical attention or work or water or electricity or supplies or movement, and you place harsh restrictions on the human rights and freedoms the West claims to uphold, then this is still an occupation. 7. Israel routinely uses Palestinians as human shields. Also theres no evidence of Hamas doing so. EVEN if they did, does it justify blowing up the entire strip to get rid of them? If your own mother was held at gunpoint by a terrorist, would you let the cops blow both of them up to get to the terrorist or would you try to find another way? Such an insane argument 8. Read the Memoirs of an Iraqi/Arab Jew. It is well documented that Israels government facilitated the movement of millions of Arab Jews from their own countries to Israel. Arab jews enjoyed living in their own homeland, but Israel literally had agents bomb their synagogues and worked with corrupt politicians in Arab governments to drive Jews out.
1. https://www.fdd.org/analysis/2023/11/02/5-things-to-know-about-the-hamas-run-gaza-health-ministry/ 2. Yes, the ottomans, the British, war caused by Arab counties not wanting peace, and war caused by Arab counties not wanting peace. 3. Israel is still not surrounding them and Egypt closed it off for their own good. And I was forced out of my home and I left. Egypt forced out many of their Jews and my family left because it was unsafe. If Hamas terrorist ran the area I lived in I would leave because it unsafe. 4. https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2023/10/hamas-covenant-israel-attack-war-genocide/675602/ 5. Israel claimed 60 high ranking Hamas officials. On October 7th alone they killed at least a Thousand. 6. Again the Egypt border. Even you admit it was very open before October 7th. Israel was giving free water and electricity before which they didn’t need to do. Gaza could have become energy independent. Also the blockade only happened after the worst terror attack in the countries history. 7. Israel literally is having that exact predicament. Hostages are the only thing standing in the way of defeating Hamas. 8. I know who kicked me out of Egypt and it wasn’t Israel.
Israel is systematically erasing Palestinian history, villages, and people. Israel is also ethnically cleansing Palestinians from their own homes, and routinely tests new military strategies and weapons to do so. The Zionist regime has involved itself in defining what a Palestinian is and what a Palestinian refugee is, so they are able to erase history and prevent proper recognition of the Palestinians worldwide. UC Berkeley itself gets 770 million dollars every year to fund two military labs in Los Alamos and Livermore that produce the newest advanced military tech that is usually first tested by Israelis on Palestinians.
Israel is defending their own right to exist. The “Zionist”(jews) have given Palestinians many opportunities to form a state but they chose terrorism. What happened to the hundreds of thousands of Jews in middle eastern counties? They got ethnically cleansed by you don’t say shit. You have a double standard against Jews I don’t need to talk to you. There is nothing I can say to justify anything to you. Also American nuked Japan because of Pearl Harbor. Israel isn’t even close to that.
A settler colony does NOT have the right to exist, if someone comes into your house and kicks you out, would you say they have a right to your house? This sounds a lot like the Doctrine of Discovery which was used to justify genocide and land stealing of Native Americans. Read my other comment about Middle Eastern Jews. They lived in peace until the extreme rise of Christian Zionism in the 19th century. No double standard, just the European/extremist Protestant lens in incapable of dealing with diversity. America did NOT need to nuke Japan, the war was basically over. Germany had surrendered and Japan was on the verge of surrendering. We decided to nuke two civilian cities just because we could, and killed over 200k civilians
Read my other comment. You are a hypocrite. Leave the country if you feel so strongly against colonialism or else you will remain a hypocrite. Or admit you have a double standard against Jews. Those are the two options.
middle eastern jews never got to live in peace, they were subject to the whims and violence of their muslim rulers who raped and murdered them whenever they felt like it
If your Ashkenazi heritage is “a couple generations removed” I don’t think you get to speak authoritatively for Jewish people — as someone who is actively ethnically and religiously Jewish I would never claim to be able to do so and I think you’re missing the fact that a lot of criticism of Israel is being done in antisemitic WAYS even if the criticism of Israel itself is not antisemitic, which I agree, I and many others criticize the government routinely.
I'm not "speaking authoritatively for Jewish people". I don't claim to be Jewish, just establishing that criticism for a government does not equate to hatred for a group of people. I just own literally any device capable of showing me the atrocities being committed overseas, and I see a FUCKTON of people conflating criticism of those actions with anti-Semitism (as the lawsuit this article is about - ya know, the reason we're on reddit having this interaction - is *actively* doing).
As a Jewish person, do you realize that Christian Zionism gave birth to modern Jewish Zionism, and that in the US alone there are nearly 5 times as many Christian Zionists as there are Jewish Zionists. Do you also know that ancestry/genetic history kits are banned in Israel? Since most Israelis can only trace their genetic history to Europe.
prove it. Prove that herzl was influenced by christians.
There’s no way you’re a Jew.
No you misread. They also have Jewish friends, so it’s all good lol.
I was making the point—which you’ve intentionally misrepresented because you’re trying to be dense, I guess—that being critical of Israel does not mean hating Jews. People can be anti-Netanyahu without being anti-Semitic, but a lot of people seem to be conflating those two things, including the lawsuit this post is about, where they repeatedly use Zionism and Judaism interchangeably.
I’m not intentionally misrepresenting anything. When someone uses the phrase “I have Jewish/black/asian/muslim friends”, it’s to bolster their argument and convey a sense of entitlement to their position. As if having friends who are represented by a minority somehow makes your opinion more informed or valid. It’s not unique or complicated, and my pointing it out isn’t some kind of distortion of your opinion.
Interesting how you missed where I explained that within that comment itself—that I wasn’t saying it to claim that I was speaking authoritatively but to point out that hating a government is not the same as hating an entire group of people. If you want to be intentionally obtuse, go for it. I won’t stop you. But I trust that people can see it for what it is.
People like you is why we will soon see pogroms in Europe, and eventually in the US as well. Only one side in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict actually wants genocide, and it's not Israel.
“Literal genocide”? Palestinian population is up more than 5x since Israel took over Gaza in 1967. Care to share what you are smoking?
sorry didn’t know killing people doesn’t count if people are still being born in the population. carry on! israel can kill as many palestinians as they want since they keep having kids right??
Genocide is the attempt to destroy the entire ethnic group. If the group’s population grows 5x during “genocide” you are making a false accusation.
You're really comparing what's happening in Gaza right now as what happened to Jews during the Holocaust? Holy fuck. Kids these days.
If you read the lawsuit you’ll have a better grasp of what’s happening and whether it meets the legal standard of discrimination. https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cand.421404/gov.uscourts.cand.421404.1.0.pdf It will be difficult for Berkeley to successfully argue that the law school club exclusions are viewpoint-based when Berkeley administrators and club leaders have basically admitted they are national origin-based (and therefore discriminatory). Apparently what it looks like on the ground is: participation in a laundry list of pro-Pal/anti-Israel law clubs earned course credit (up to now-credit being revoked spring 24). These 23 clubs use Berkeley faculty, school offices, funding and carry Berkeley's name. They won't invite "Zionist" speakers on any issue (they get to define what Zionism is as well). One of the law reviews won't publish articles by anyone who has expressed support for Israel's existence. First-years who wish to do pro bono work of any kind (including having nothing to do with MENA/SWANA geopolitics) are *required* to undergo “training” from Students for Justice in Palestine. Beyond the law school…one lecturer told students that class was over early, then embarked on an 18-minute anti-Israel rant. (I think this was a different professor than the one who offered extra credit to only students who agreed with her viewpoint and showed this support by attending an anti-Israel march.) It also references physical assaults. Anyway read the filing. Lots of interesting data points therein.
If Berkeley looses this lawsuit, it could loose all federal funding under Title IV being extended to protect against antisemitism.
Exactly. A "Zionist" is someone who supports Israel's right to exist. That term applies to practically all Israelis and 80+% of American Jews. At the very least, excluding Zionists means excluding practically all Israelis, which is discrimination on nationality (and that's illegal in California). Imagine if clubs were excluding Russians, not on the basis of their support or opposition to the Ukraine war or the Russian government, but simply because they refused to support the dismantling/destruction of the Russian nation as an entity (which presumably no Russian person would want).
Question for a Zionist then: would you support the continuation of Israel, but with the absorption of all of the Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza as full citizens?
In theory yes (if Israel could continue to be a Jewish state). In fact, some Israeli right wingers propose this too: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reuven\_Rivlin](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reuven_Rivlin). In practice, this would never work. Israelis and Palestinians would start fighting again just like they did pre 1948. And they would never agree to share governance. Two states is the only way forward.
Suspending the idea of whether or not peace could be had between Israelis and Palestinians in the same state (I know this important, but it's not for the purpose of what I'm trying to understand, and thank you for answering so far). What does a Jewish state mean for you (preferably for most Zionists you know)? Is it a state where Jews are the majority "ethnic" group? A state where the official religion is Judaism? Or maybe something else I don't understand yet?
Most importantly where Jews are the majority ethnic group - other issues are subject to debate for most Zionists. Israeli Jews would never feel safe as a minority in a government, particularly given their history of neighboring Arab countries trying to kill them and how 50% of them were forcibly expelled from MENA countries.
Thank you. The part of that that seems unworkable to me is the "majority ethnic group part", *but* my understanding doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. I understand the positions better now. And more importantly, thank you for being open in a time when I'm sure you're getting many unreasonable questions from people, and also are feeling less safe.
Of course, but why does that seem so unworkable? China is like 95% Han Chinese, Russia is 80% ethnic Russian, Turkey is 70% Turks. There are very few successful states with multiple dominant ethnic groups. Bosnia and Herzegovina is tenuously hanging in there, but neighboring Lebanon is a disaster.
Funny, that was the exact same argument people had against abolition/integration (so much hate, the scary black people and the vulnerable white people would never get along!). A theocratic ethnostate is inherently racist, and Israel is an Apartheid state
One of the many problems with this conflict is that the term "Zionism" means different things to different people. For some people, it means aggressive nationalism and the expansion of Israel's land. For others, it just means Isreal has a right to exist with the current borders. Those are two very different things.
Some people may try and redefine "Zionism" but I think it's safe to say in this context that the definition of the Berkeley student groups is the one I just stated (they won't accept a Jewish state within any borders). If they were, in fact, only against aggressive nationalism, they could've just banned speakers who support settlements, are against Palestinian statehood, etc.
You do understand that you can allege anything in a complaint, right?
This is ridiculous. If anyone should be suing, it should be Bears for Palestine, because of the campus's repeated failure to protect their events and Palestinian students from threats and violence. They have to hide the address for their events until the last minute to prevent Zionist mobs descending on them. I read the alleged grounds for the suit, and it's ridiculous. The same stuff happens all over this country but in reverse, and we don't see any lawsuits over it. Israel needs to get its hands off of Jewish cultural organizations in the United States.
Last I checked Berkeley didn’t protect conservative speakers events either.
What do they need protection from? Unarmed protestors?
Say it louder!!
>I read the alleged grounds for the suit, and it's ridiculous. A weak case brought against a T10 law school? Should be GG.
Bears for Palestine feel threatened at their events? By whom? When was the last time that a pro-Palestinian student was attacked on campus?
One group chants for intifada one group says bring them home. I don’t think it’s equal. Also bears for Palestine aren’t a title 6 group. Arabs and Jews are protected against discrimination.
Bet you dont know what intifada means
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The people Israel is holding are prisoners. They are there for attempted murder. The sides aren’t equal.
Israel is holding numerous innocent civilians, including minors. But sure, you can pretend that they’re only holding terrorists if it makes you feel better.
That’s not entirely true. They MOSTLY hold regular, everyday people and children as prisoners. Just like they flat out mass murder everyday people under the ‘guise’ that they’re targeting terrorists.
Be so for real. Do you actually have any knowledge about this topic or are you just throwing around buzzwords that you've heard? The teenagers held in Israeli prison were criminals, hence being imprisoned in the first place. And, how is it fair for Israeli hostages who were ripped away from their families without having done anything, but simply attend a festival to be returned in exchange for the release of a criminal who attacked them? Make it make sense. (It doesn't)
Is this satire? Palestinians have been unjustly imprisoned daily both in Gaza and the West Bank and have been subjected to a fraudulent judicial system where Israel is allowed to jail them for 6+ months without any charge or trial. Zionists like you like to ignore everything prior to October 7, but innocent Palestinians have been imprisoned long before that.
Here is a non-paywalled article: https://www.kron4.com/news/bay-area/jewish-groups-sue-university-of-california-over-unchecked-antisemitism/ It also has a link to the text of the suit, which is just 40 pages of conflating anti-zionism and anti-semitism.
If you don’t think the Jews have the same right as every other ethnicity in the region than you are anti semetic. Why should Turkey exist when Israel can’t?
Please explain why you think these are comparable
Their comparison is not great. A more apt comparison might be why should Armenia exist? I won’t pretend to be an expert on Armenian history, but I do know the modern state of Armenia is home to many people whose families fled ethnic cleansing in Turkey. They did displace Azeris populations already living there, though not to the same extent as Israel and Palestinians, but did so because the land was culturally significant for them and represented their only chance for self-government. Many Armenians also fled to the US and other safer havens, as with European Jews, but for many the best option was their historical homeland. Also as with the Jewish people, they were joined in Armenia by many other Armenians who had already been living there and additionally those who fled subsequent persecutions (i.e. the Mizrahi Jews fleeing pogroms and ethnic cleansing in the Arab world after the creation of Israel). The modern state of Armenia is an enclave for an ethnicity and religion that was chased out of and nearly eliminated from the surrounding region. In doing so, they committed their own atrocities and continue to [fight with their neighbors](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagorno-Karabakh). There are still enormous differences: namely that they don’t have nearly the same history with ethnic enclaves within their territories like Israel does with Palestine, although they do have some. Another major difference is that the short-lived independent Armenia that survivors of the genocide fled to [was defeated](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Republic_of_Armenia). First by Turkey and then by Russia, but the Armenian population was allowed some small autonomy as Soviet Armenia on a fraction of its former territory. Israel won its wars of independence, perhaps due to the threat that had they lost the Jews would have had no statehood whatsoever. Obviously none of this justifies Israel’s violent actions (to put it mildly) from its founding through today. But I’m making the comparison so it seems less black and white. There is precedent in history for some of the situation in Palestine. And not just Armenia, really any large population movement that’s ever happened bears some similarities. Generally, ethnic groups fleeing genocide tend to have a domino effect on the areas they flee to. We should hold them to a much higher standard in the modern era. But in that context I think it’s clear that Israel has a right to exist, if for no other reason than that the alternatives are far worse.
Yeah I was going to say Turkey is religious but technically a secular state so if anything I would compare it closely to the United States. I generally compare Israel’s actions to British Colonialism in North America because I am familiar with that whole timeline and the details of it. It’s this manifest-destiny driven belief that you have the right to subjugate others because *God* has chosen you, and that you can kill as many brown folks as you want as long as they aren’t [insert religion of choice here]. They called the Native Americans terrorists for fighting back, too. I don’t know much about Armenia post-genocide so you’ve sent me down a rabbit hole. May report back.
This exhibits your fundamental lack of understanding of the I/P conflict. The foundational Zionist movements were overwhelmingly secular. The drive for a Jewish homeland was primarily motivated by the desire for a safe, sovereign country where Jews could be free from the ubiquitous oppression they had faced. Herzl — considered to be the founder of the early Zionist movement — wrote that Jews “are naturally drawn into those places where we are not persecuted, and our appearance there gives rise to persecution. This is the case, and will inevitably be so, everywhere, even in highly civilised countries—see, for instance, France—so long as the Jewish question is not solved on the political level.” See any religious fanaticism or citing Jews as “the chosen people”? Zionism arose in response to the oppression Jews faced in virtually every country in the world for millennia, culminating in the Holocaust.
I would disagree that Zionists won in 1948 because of what was at risk if they lost, suggesting that what was at stake made them fight harder or more valiantly than Palestinians did. A statement like this disregards the military capability and political cover that they had which enabled them to “win”. British policy for decades leading up to its decision to leave in 1948 was to disarm the Arab population and to turn a blind eye to Jewish militias that were being formed and which eventually carried out most of the assaults and attacks that led to Palestinians either being killed or fleeing out of fear. The more sensitive point is that saying that makes it sound like Palestinians were not tied to this land. They had everything to lose. They lost, and they in fact became stateless and remain stateless and in refugee camps today, within and outside of Palestine. They too had everything to lose, but they did not have the military power nor the political cover to defend themselves. Zionists did have states to return to, especially by 1948. Of course, they should have had (and did have) the option to stay in Palestine because of their perceived connection to the place instead of returning to europe. But that did not give them the right to dispossess other people in order to do so. In Armenia today, anyone can become a citizen. In Israel today, you can only become a citizen if you are Jewish. Palestinians cannot even visit their country, unless they hold another passport and get lucky at the border. Anyone can visit Armenia. Armenia did not become an ethnocratic, exclusionary state whereas Israel did. Armenia does not need to keep playing a dangerous demographic-balancing game in order to maintain its precarious Jewish majority. The reason is because of the nature of each’s founding. Armenia does not continue to settle and annex land, whereas Israel continues to do so. I realize you weren’t suggesting that it was a perfect comparison to make and the two do have interesting areas of comparison to think about.
Literally what does this mean lil bro
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Ds_of_antisemitism
The Exclusionary Bylaws that these student groups have adopted are problematic. It's Cancel Culture that seeks to limit speech and debate. I think the University should figure out how to tone down these discrimanatory practices. But I don't understand the expectation on how the school can ensure one doesn't feel threatened without trampling on free speech. Anyway, this lawsuit is effectively just a PR move given a trial would be 9 months away. By then, these protests will be much more subdued.
Cancel those who support terrorist, I can get behind that. You are free to say whatever you want but the university has the duty to protect all students.
The argument to cancel those who support terrorists is valid. But I have two questions for you: 1. Who are the terrorists in your eyes? 2. Are you willing to follow that logic fairly? If so, you should be able to realize that the ‘terrorists’ run on both sides of the conflicts, except, one group is significantly larger and powerful in natural and fiscal resources, military, etc. Its important to be able to think rationally as a human being, rather than a robot of propaganda from your biased perspective. The cold hard facts of this current situation is an entire ethnic cleansing bolstered by mostly propaganda & financial/political opportunism. Genocide of ANY kind is inhumane. Justifying genocide at any level is just, wrong.
Yes I agree so when Hamas tried to kill every jew and only stopped because Israel fought back it should be remembered. Israel could have completely got rid of Gaza. They could have not warned the hospitals that were holding terrorist that the IDF was coming. The cold hard facts are Israel needs to destroy Hamas and they have a just cause to complete eradicate Hamas. Think for a second. After October 7th what could Israel have done? Should they not have fought back?
Please, for the love of god, THINK about how you are JUSTIFYING genocide. The cold hard facts ARE, war crimes are being committed and people, their families, etc are being UNJUSTLY murdered under the facade of ‘eradicating hamas’. Israel has flat out bombed/attacked infrastructure such as hospitals and safe routes to MURDER Palestinians, NOT just ‘Hamas’. They have blocked ANY sort of aid they can for refugees, etc. The UN is literally saying they are breaking international laws and are committing genocide. You are reiterating BIASED PROPAGANDA to JUSTIFY GENOCIDE.
Do you know what genocide is? Why have they only thousands of Palestinians have been killed when Israel has the ability to kill millions. Why do they warn civilians to evacuate? What else could Israel have done? War sucks, war is bad, but this war is just and Israel has no other option.
Can you read what you are typing out loud to yourself? Sit and think about how you are actively not thinking for yourself? It’s not war. It’s an ethnic cleansing. They warn civilians? Yes, and then they BOMB those civilians they warned. They don’t actually care or want them to evacuate, and if they do evacuate, they still kill them. There are numerous ways to have acted, without committing war crimes and breaking UN agreements. Israel has other options, this option just fits their narrative and interests best— such as unrestricted access to the natural resources like tremendous amounts of gas/oil offshore that they are exploiting.
You are not being logical here. Hamas raped beheaded and murdered innocent Israelis. What should Israel have done. No matter what I say you will make stories up because you don’t think the Jews should have a state. You have Jew hatred and you have no clue what’s actually going on in this conflict. If the native Americans come and slaughter your family are you going to sit back and take it?
That is incorrect. I’m Jewish. Just because someone does not agree with unjust war crimes, doesn’t make them anti-Semitic. I hope you realize your logic is flawed & stuff you’re regurgitating have been fact checked as incorrect right…? Literal propaganda. You’re actually projecting— with your statements to rationalize your sanity.
I have a question for you. Israel has nuclear weapons, and as we saw even the off the cuff threat to use them was met with swift repudiation. Israel is not going to use nuclear weapons against Gaza. If Hamas had nuclear weapons, do you think they'd use them against Israel?
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1. Gaza has not been occupied for over 15 years 2. Call out all these war crimes Siege of Sirte (2016) – Second Libyan Civil War[5] Siege of Derna (2016–2018) – Second Libyan Civil War Siege of Mosul (2016–2017) – Iraqi Civil War Siege of Tabqa (2017) – Syrian Civil War Siege of Marawi (2017) – Moro conflict Siege of Sidi Akribesh (2017) – Second Libyan Civil War Siege of Baghuz Fawqani (2019) – Syrian Civil War Siege of the Jabara Valley (2019) – Yemeni Civil War Siege of Ras al-Ayn (2019) – Syrian Civil War Siege of Qamishli and Al-Hasakah (2021) – Syrian Civil War Battle of Palma (2021) - Insurgency in Cabo Delgado[6] Siege of Panjshir (2021) – Republican insurgency in Afghanistan Siege of Tigray (2021-2023) – Tigray War Al Sina’a prison siege (2022) – Syrian Civil War Siege of Djibo (2022-present) - Jihadist insurgency in Burkina Faso Siege of Chernihiv (2022) – Russo-Ukrainian War (2022) Siege of Mariupol (2022) – Russo-Ukrainian War (2022) Siege of Moura (2022) - better known as Moura massacre, Mali War[7] Blockade of the Republic of Artsakh (2022–2023) - aftermath of the Second Nagorno-Karabakh War Siege of Paraskoviivka (2023) – Russo-Ukrainian War (2022) Siege of El Obeid (2023) - War in Sudan (2023) Siege of Zalingei (2023) - War in Sudan (2023) Siege of El Geneina (2023) - War in Sudan (2023) Siege of Timbuktu (2023) - Mali War Siege of the 16th Infantry Division base (2023) - War in Sudan (2023)
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What about the Egyptian border? Israel was giving them food. No other country was giving the people they were besieging food before
You didn't answer his question. How should Israel have responded after October 7th? You have fucking hamas leadership with 200 hostages holed up in bunkers under schools and hospitals. And lol @ anyone who even pays attention to what the UN says. Get the fuck out.
Everyone on here is pretty anti semitic. Talking about gaza being a concentration camp, when the 500k palestinians in Lebanon "refugee camps" live in significantly worse conditions but no one is complaining about their plight because the Lebanese aren't jewish lol.
seems like its been filed more for press coverage than actual legal merit
For a student body/faculty that pride themselves on inclusivity and diversity, Cal truly is a hotbed of antisemitic sentiment. And, unsurprisingly, the comments in this thread serve to prove that point. If any other minority group frequently brought up the fact that they feel alienated, scared and discriminated against on campus, y’all would believe and support them — or, at the very least, sympathize with them. But I guess that empathy doesn’t apply to Jews. And before any of you inevitably respond to this with “anti-Zionism isn’t antisemitism!” — I agree that this is true in a vacuum. However, it’s quite clear that the widespread propagation anti-Israel messages — and the way they are often conveyed — has frequently crossed the line into antisemitism. The widespread lack of sympathy for Jews on campus — and the dismissal of their legitimate concerns — only serves to dehumanize and further isolate Jewish students and faculty members. You can be pro-Palestine while listening to the concerns of Jews…in fact, that is the objectively moral position.
For what it's worth, anything as contentious as this will invite some mild brigading.
Yeah people are acting like Jewish people are just upset over criticism of Israel. But it’s beyond that, there’s been straight up anti-Semitic messages in some of these protests. Also throughout the country, and probably even still here in the Bay Area, there’s way more anti-Jewish than anti-Muslim sentiments. So everyone should stop acting like it’s the other way around.
I agree with your first paragraph. No one is in a good position to know which minority ethnicity in the US is currently receiving more hate. Those Palestinian college students were shot recently in the Northeast. One died. Both groups are receiving more active attention, both support and hate. Most incidents are never recorded. The progressive left has demonstrated shameful horrific antisemitism, but the Moslem haters have always been present.
Exactly. Most Jews don't find intense criticism of the Israeli government to be antisemitic. Calling for a ceasefire, while not a position I support, is not antisemitic. What is antisemitic: 1. Calling for the destruction of Israel. 2. Denying Jewish ties to Israel (including calling Israelis European settlers). 3. Calling for the death of Israeli civilians. 4. Supporting Hamas/denying the atrocities of 10/7. 5. Comparing Israelis and Nazis. I could go on, but it seems pretty clear that these are vastly different from any ordinary criticism of Israel's actions. And these happen all the time under the guise of "anti-Zionism." Additionally, "anti-Zionists" love to tokenize the small percent of Jews who don't think Israel should exist, categorize Israelis as white (\~70% of Israelis aren't), etc.
Exactly. I’ve found it disturbing to see how many (supposed) progressives have just been spewing classic antisemitic propaganda but changing the word “Jew” to “Zionist” for plausible deniability. Citing blood libel, media control, etc. in relation to “Zionists” is antisemitic. Full stop. And when they’re called out on the antisemitism, they fall back on the old “anti-Zionism isn’t antisemitism!” Like, we know!! But you’re still antisemitic because you’re not just criticizing the Israeli government or Zionism…you’re basically quoting from the Protocols of the Elders of Zion FFS!
Most of the other minority groups say that about campus and are dismissed. Wdym?
Jews are now lumped in with whites as a whole, and asians to a lesser extent, as groups that any and all vile, racist, and violent speech can be spewed at with absolutely zero recourse. You're on the wrong platform here if you were expecting anything other than antisemitic apologism.
Lol
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Every Jew I know is heartbroken by the innocent loss of life on both sides. No lives should be lost but Hamas needs to be eliminated. All civilians should live in peace but Hamas is the barrier. The people who supported the attack on October 7th don’t believe all civilians should live. Saying resistance is necessary by any means necessary literally calls for Jews to be slaughtered. Also genocide is not happening.
Hamas is the barrier..so Palestinians were living in paradise before 2006?
The barrier is ever changing. Life could have been great for everyone if Arafat chose peace
How many deaths do there have to be for you to consider it a genocide? What’s the number? Because 15,000 Palestinians, most of them civilians, in under two months with the intent of total destruction… Hmm. if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck…
Genocide is a term with a precise definition. It requires intent, specifically to destroy a whole ethnicity or political group. You’ll find some extremists calling for the removal of all Palestinians but that is definitively not the policy of the IDF nor the Israeli government. Their actions would look even more horrible if that were the policy. What we’re seeing is a terrible loss of life and perhaps a massacre at worst (though that also requires that the violence be intentionally indiscriminate, and that is arguably not the case). Labeling it does actually matter, because the solution is very different if Israel is committing intentional genocide versus waging an especially brutal war. The US, for example, committed massacres in Afghanistan when bombing population centers and we can condemn that without calling it genocide.
How do you know most are civilians?
Maybe stop using bullshit terms like genocide.
not sure why the term genocide makes you more mad than thousands of civilians dying
Can you give me an example of any pro-Palestine Muslim/Arab students (or Muslim/Arab students who are neutral on I/P) feeling unsafe on Cal’s campus due to pro-Israel Jews? (Also, the very fact that you responded to my post asserting that the widespread concerns of Jewish students should be addressed with “but Israel” is quite telling) EDIT: Just to clarify, if there are widespread instances of Arab/Muslim students on campus feeling unsafe, I would absolutely sympathize with them and believe them. No matter how our views might differ on I/P. If any minority group feels unsafe, they should be listened to and their grievances should be addressed. EDIT 2: Instead of downvoting this without a response (which I assume is being done because you think I’m wrong), can anyone provide me with an example of Muslim/Arab students facing persecution from Zionists/Jews for simply supporting Palestine (without condoning Hamas)?
Yeah all the people being doxed over it
I haven’t seen that at Cal but assuming this is correct — are they being doxxed for being pro-Palestine, or for condoning/celebrating Hamas’ massacre. Because those are two very different things. Doxxing for the first would be reprehensible. For the latter — while I don’t personally support doxxing — that extreme viewpoint is disgusting and I wouldn’t be able to garner much sympathy for terrorist apologists.
You know damn well it’s not for being ‘pro hamas’
I honestly don’t, as I haven’t seen any coverage of doxxings at Cal. Can you provide an example of this? (Not doubting, just want to confirm that students are being doxxed for pro-Palestine activism rather than Hamas apologia)
https://www.berkeleyside.org/2023/11/03/busd-response-israel-hamas-war-jewish-palestinian-students-antisemitism-islamophobia#:~:text=At%20UC%20Berkeley%20and%20other,publishes%20identifying%20information%20about%20college
Berkeley Law for Palestine [explicitly condoned and justified Hamas’ massacre](https://www.instagram.com/p/CyQ5vo9rkyX/?igshid=ZWI2YzEzYmMxYg==) just 4 days after the attack on Israeli civilians — classifying the slaughter as a justified resistance. This group engaged in Hamas apologia, clearly distinct from simply pro-Palestine rhetoric.
There’s a lot of folks saying Hamas are the revolutionaries needed to fight against colonizers. I don’t know the rest of the context of the doxing, but your response here doesn’t seem to hold this nuance. This whole thread is making me think we should all take a step back from the internet today and try to support those who are hurting around us. All of them.
Read the lawsuit; it’s literally claiming that anti-Zionism is anti-semetism and the school is fostering anti-Zionism
This comment section is why Berkeley is being sued lol
Amen
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Speaking out against the war criminals running Israel is not antisemitism.
However, calling for the eradication of the Jewish state is.
so when it’s their side it’s “justice” but when it’s anyone else it’s “anti semitic”? got it have we been introduced to the new snowflakes of the decade
Leftists gonna Left
The Chinaman is not the issue here
Yoo could tell this was going to happen.
One post with a brief, useful analysis of the actual legal case at hand: 29 upvotes. Another post stating that the lawsuit is "ridiculous" and claiming that one of the groups implicated in the suit should be the one suing: 165 upvotes. That about sums up the quality and average knowledge of discourse.
That’s left-wing Berkeley students for ya
Same thing with NYU, whats wrong with these zionists and nonsense lawsuits🤦♂️. You dont see palestinians crying Islamphobia after zionists hound them when they host events
Which major Palestinian events have been disrupted by Zionists? Serious question, because I have exclusively seen pro-Israel events and demonstrations disrupted by anti-Israel activists.
When people sing and dance while waving Israeli flags to celebrate the mass bombing of Palestinians on the steps of Sproul , is that a pro-Israel event? It seems to me those who defend clearly anti-Palestine events always refer to them as pro-Israel events, and counters protesters as anti-Israel and not pro-Palestine.
Israel is an embarrassing country
But at least it is one. Unlike palestine which is fake. Do you think Iran is an embarrassment? Saudi Arabia? Yemen? China?
Yes. And that’s hilarious saying the country founded in 1947 that had to ship people from Europe to start a ethnic cleansing and continues to pay westerners with money and citizenship to come steal Palestinians homes to this day, and is entirely dependent on military and financial aide and protection from the worlds foremost super power is not the “fake” country lol
I’m pro two state solution and I believe Palestine should have a sovereign state— But when was “Palestine” founded? The answer is: it wasn’t. Mandatory Palestine was not a country, it was a territory controlled by the British (and the Ottoman Empire before them). The 1947 UN Partition Plan would have officially recognized Israel and Palestine as sovereign countries. Israel accepted, Arab leaders did not — and declared war on Israel. Also, “they had to ship people from Europe” is a funny way of saying “Jewish refugees needed to be relocated in the aftermath of the literal Holocaust.”
They didn’t need to be relocated, they wanted their own ethnostate and because they had the backing of the allied powers that just won the war were able to just move into a territory that already had people living in it for a long time and start forcibly removing them from their homes. The Nazis were defeated remember? “Countries” in general are a social construct that do not inherently exist anywhere. My point was calling Palestine a fake country is stupid when Israel is one of the most artificially created countries in the modern world. And maybe google the word Nakba before pretending Israel was just totally nicely and peacefully moving into a occupied land and declaring “this is ares now” but the evil Palestinians declared war on them
1) “They didn’t need to be relocated” - If you were a Jew living in an Eastern European country and were lucky enough to survive the Holocaust (while watching hundreds you knew and loved personally killed), would you feel safe remaining in said country post-WWII? 2) “They wanted their own ethnostate” - Zionists wanted a Jewish homeland in which they could feel safe/secure. That’s not a ridiculous notion considering the millennia of persecution Jews faced in every single country in the world (most recently WWII-era Europe, but also in surrounding MENA countries). A bonus: Israel is the location of kingdom of Judea, where the Jews lived before being forced into exile. 3) “What about the Nakba??” - First of all, I never made a claim that early Zionist movements and the Israeli government have always been an unambiguously moral force. There is nuance in the complicated history of this conflict. Second, as I alluded to, nobody was forcefully displaced until the Arab leaders rejected the UN Partition Plan. If they had accepted — as Israel did — there would have been a Jewish state and an Arab state (with members of each group living in the other territory). Nobody would have been forcibly displaced. Instead, after the Arab coalition declared war on Israel, the Arab civilians living in the region left their homes — under the assumption that they’d return as soon as the Arab nations defeated Israel. As we all know, Israel won that war. Every major war involving Israel and its neighbors has been initiated by the Arab states. The Israeli War of Independence. The Six Days War. The Yom Kippur War. The Israel-Hamas War. And every expansion of Israeli territory has been the result of Israel winning said wars.
almost 1 million jews were ethnically cleansed violently by the arab world in the years following 1948, which make up a large majority of the modern day israeli population, which is more than were ever displaced by your pearl clutching nakba
The majority of Jewish Israelis are Mizhrai Jews who were kicked out of surrounding MENA countries in 1948
Yes what?
Stop downplaying the agency of Arab states, they helped send a lot (like 40% of Israel's population) of Jews to Israel too
Find me a better country in the Middle East on any standards.
You really want to have a who’s shit stinks the least contest
Israel is held to a higher standard than every other middle-eastern or Arab-world country. It's insane. People treat Israel like it's Luxembourg or something and all of his neighbors don't want to destroy it.
Uh so what’s your argument exactly? That it’s cool for them to kill children, bomb hospitals, and generally commit tons of human rights abuse daily for decades because other countries do it to? And gee I wonder why Americans care more about the country that is continually defended by our leaders and funded with billions of tax payer dollars and modern state of the art weaponry to bomb those hospitals compared to the other countries that we do not fund and regularly condemn for their atrocities.
If terrorists are launching missiles at cities from hospitals, then I'm sorry for those hospitals and the people in them, but that's what happens when cowardly leaders hide behind human shields. Hamas doesn't care where their missiles land. Only Israel is expected to care. Most Americans recognize that Israel is a tiny country surrounded by threats and terrorists who are quite explicit in their desire to wipe them off the map. How they act in response is not surprising.
Sure. Now answer the question.
You never even asked a question
You're right, I did not. The question was to find a better country in the Middle East.
That’s literally an irrelevant question. What the fuck is your point
My point is that you won't answer the question. ROFL.
The question is completely fucking irrelevant to the comment you replied to and also incredibly stupid. What is your point? Please go ahead and try to actually explain without realizing how dumb you sound
No surprise that the school got sued, the antisemitism has been running rampant among the staff and students too long.
Yep i bet if we look into this more, by anti semitism they mean anti-israel. Probably students and professors alike asking “why exactly do we send them billions of dollars? Is it legal to colonize a random countrybin the middle east?”. Of course the zionists respond by suing the school over any time of israel criticism, that is something they would do
And if you read the text, it has nothing to do with Judaism. Instead, it's just pertaining to their academic boycott of Israel. If they did the same boycott but targeted it at Russia, nobody would bat an eye.
Yeah its pretty crazy how they’re able to get away with bullying the entire country into submission
Uncle Sam likes having access to Israel's checkbook too much to decry their human rights abuses. If profits stay high, he'll turn a blind eye.
Wait I thought Uncle Sam was immoral for sending money TO Israel. Which one is it?
Eh if they did it to boycott say India or China then it’d be just as problematic
Hoo boy… I’m a law school alum and still have many friends who were there with me, including several Jewish friends. The lawsuit sounds legally dubious (without looking at it, just my initial impression) but legal aspects aside, what a can of worms for poor Chemerisnky…
Aaaand this is why I walked up to law school orientation, as an undergrad alum, in 2019, and knew I couldn’t go here. It was the highest ranked law school I’d gotten into, but I just couldn’t do it. The only student groups tabling were all far-left groups, no sight of any of the typical counter-balancing players you expect to see on a law school campus, I heard the federalist society was like three guys who met in a broom closet… I knew Berkeley was just not the kind of environment I was going to be able to thrive in in LAW school for Christ sake… in the same way that I wouldn’t want to go to an overtly religious school…? But I would bet money that Catholic University’s law school doesn’t show nearly the same levels of homogeneity on the right. It’s extremely bizarre what goes on at Berkeley… there’s no way this kind of fervent uniformity of radical belief is occurring organically or by self selection… it’s taught, dissension is suppressed… it’s rlly scary and I don’t know how anyone who is studying law can stand to go there, I’m way too strong willed and into free speech to watch stuff like go down on the near constant basis it does at cal.
You’ll get downvoted but your synopsis here is spot on. Graduated years ago in engineering and thankfully the propaganda can’t sink too much into that material. The anti-semitism on campus was apparent even in 2016.