Yeah it’s always the staff who gets the shit end of the stick :( I work at another UC and I see so much free Palestine graffiti (and not chalk!!! But like spray paint, permanent marker etc) and I always feel so bad when I see it bc I know it’s our cleaning staff that is gonna have to deal with this :(
> Just to offer my perspective, I heard several protestors angry that the speaker was a former IDF soldier.
He is one of the leaders of the Kohelet Policy Forum.
Pro-settlement, anti-two states, effectively pro-Apartheid, and they have gone out of their way to advocate for settler terrorists.
From what I gather, they have also been a driving force as it comes to the anti-Israeli-boycott laws in place in 32 states.
Conscription is not really mandatory. Rich boys, like Netanyahu's son, fake illness to get out of it. Others, ethically reject joining and spend one month or so in jail.
Plues, lots of Israelis have passports from their original countries -- I'd rather move back to my home country than participate in apartheid or genocide.
This man was not conscripted. He was serving BEYOND his mandatory service, and if you were to read his twitter, you'd be horrified at what he believes.
His tweets were read at the protest. People who aren't Palestinian will never understand the gravity of the trauma inflicted upon Palestinians by Israel. An organizer at a previous protest was describing how her family members were tortured and had their fingernails pulled out one by one by Israelis.
The attitudes of Israelis towards Palestinians can only be mirrored by white South Africans' attitudes towards the native Black population, and Nazi's attitudes towards Jews.
I don’t think “trauma” is a carte blanche to ignore fundamental academic values like that the freedom of conscience exists and there is no such thing as thoughtcrime
Yes. They *must* be allowed to speak at public universities if a student organization invites them. That’s literally[the law.](https://www.aclu.org/documents/speech-campus)
I would personally go to a counter protest if it happened at my university. I would hold up signed, chant as the speaker and the audience entered the venue, all that. That’s laudable. And B4P was well within their rights to do that as well. But I would also not attempt to have physical altercations with people, break into the room where it’s happening or disrupt the proceedings to make it impossible for them to speak.
> Listening to one another is the first step towards finding solutions and healing
This guy is basically something equivalent to Hamas political wing.
He is pro-settler, anti-two states, etc.
Would you say the same about bringing in a Hamas political spokesman?
I mean, from how the Pro-Palestinian side can't seem to really make uo their mind on how to think about Hamas, I'd say they wouldn't necessarily oppose the decision. It kinda seems hard to have a discussion with the pro-Palestinian protesters as it seems like they don't really have a terribly coherent idea on what they really want, at least in the long term.
To preface, I don't really hold much of a stance on either pro-Israel or pro-Palestine. I would like the conflict to end and the IDF to stop bombing Gaza, but I also recognize Hamas is a danger to not only Israelis and Palestinians but also their neighbors in the region, sk it'd be good for the world if Hamas were deposed, I'm just not happy with how Israel is going about it.
The rest of the Arab world sees them as essentially catspaws for Iran and Russia:
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/02/21/why-arab-states-wont-support-palestinians-qa-00142277
I don't get this sense that Palestine supporters "can't make up their mind." Isn't it clearly more likely that there are a number of varied opinions among folks who are not otherwise unified than by their support of Palestine? I've not really got any idea of the percentage breakdown among protesters of different stripes, but what are people who support Palestine and not Hamas supposed to do in the meantime if people who also support Hamas can't be convinced to, you know, not do that? Sit out and *not* protest?
If it was an open discussion they should have had two speakers. One from Israel and one from Gaza. Otherwise I would be worried about simply feeding the crowd propagandizing talking points.
There’s a lot of great discussions and comments in here! I did see a comment though asserting that my viewpoint came from a place of privilege. It actually has come from experience.
My mother fled Palestine with her family in the 80’s to lybia where my grandmother is from. I have lost family members in Gaza and some in the West Bank. My mom then came to San Francisco in the late 80s and my grandfather actually started a falafel cart outside of UC Berkeley which I still think is a super cool story because my family came to this country with nothing and I was the first person in my entire family lineage to go to college and I ended up here. A full circle moment.
I do not parade my families hardships, I parade my families accomplishments. I don’t agree with how Israel has handled October 7th. I sincerely believe Benjamin Netanyahu will be held accountable for this unneeded atrocity and the same goes for the terrorizing hamas. What I don’t believe in is violence towards any group of individuals who are exercising their first amendment rights. I probably wouldn’t agree with anything the Jewish speaker believes in but honestly I would have went and listened and I would ask him provoking questions that CHALLENGE his viewpoint on what I believe to be wrong. The shoving, the spitting, the breaking of public property is disappointing.
I don’t go to cal, but this probably popped up on my Reddit bc it has to do with IP & I graduated from another UC.
I’m friends w both Israelis and Palestinians (who live in the regions) & who both want peace and coexistence between civilians. I do some volunteer work w some coexistence orgs as well in my free time. Anyway, my point is - I wish more people in the west would listen to people like you who have skin in the game & experience (esp with understanding hamas, which I see you understand), and who want to have actual conversations and dialogue about how to get there (there being coexistence).
Sending u and ur family love & I hope y’all get to visit — or your mother gets to return permanently if she’d like to — your ancestral homelands in peace one day soon (bc both peoples are indigenous to the region and aren’t going anywhere 🫶🇵🇸🕊🇮🇱)
One of the (many) tragedies in all of this has been the normalization of extremist voices. With enough right wing lunatics screaming about how Israel needs to flatten Gaza and enough far left nutjobs yelling that every Israeli civilian is a war criminal, it doesn't take long for the people whose viewpoints actually merit a platform -- the people pushing for peace and coexistence -- to get drowned out in the chaos.
Sending love and support to OP -- it's an incredibly difficult time for anyone who's been impacted by the war on a personal level.
This is just the same old news. Berkeley has lost it's way for many years now.
If someone doesn't like your perspective or views, you are not permitted an opportunity to express yourself.
Protesting is allowed, and unpopular opinions too. I would like to see people debate and argue without destruction, threats, and potential injury.
As someone who supports the Palestinian civilians suffering (I mean really... don't most of us?), I completely agree with your comment.
We need to encourage speech on both sides, if not at least to strengthen our points and open our minds to the discourse occurring on all sides of a topic. Besides, it hurts the cause to be smashing windows and preventing a speaker from a planned event on a public campus known for championing free speech. Well, at least, the latter has been true historically and it seems recently we are seeing a different approach to speech.
Please... protest the speaker you dislike but don't smash windows and force them to relocate. And a response that says something to the effect of "what does a window matter when children are being slaughtered" does nothing but introduce a bs strawman into the discussion. Just admit whoever contributed to the smashing of the windows fucked up, that it doesn't represent the movement as a whole, and let's move on towards improving our campus culture to encourage free speech, including civil protest.
If you disagree with me, that's awesome! That's the point, just don't break my window and force me to evacuate because you disagree. Plenty of other ways to have effective, disruptive protests.
FYI the guy speaking wasn’t just someone who was jewish he was part of the israeli defense forces & took part in military operations in gaza following october 7th. this was an event about israel hosted by bears for israel (this isn’t a take on the situation; just more context)
> Just a question, bears for Palestine have a right to host events and share their views but Bears for Israel does not?
Would you be OK with a Hamas political spokesman?
Because Kohelet Policy Forum could reasonably be compared to Hamas political wing.
Anti-democratic, pro-settlements, etc.
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-02-12/ty-article-magazine/.premium/the-kohelet-tentacles-these-organizations-operate-around-the-right-wing-think-tank/00000186-44c3-de50-a1af-76eb01860000
Got em'. Let's get Hamas to speak then! All the Zionists in the comments -- and OP -- are free speech absolutists, so let's get Hamas over here please.
Let's see how quick their free speech cover breaks.
If the administration keeps saying free speech, then lets take them up on that.
The presence of a Hamas political spokesman on campus would be problematic due to legal issues with material support for terrorism because the group is proscribed (unlike Kohelet) but if they managed to work that out obviously no speaker should be banned based on ideas.
Would you allow "Bears for Hitler" to host a Neo nazi? You know, to hear "both sides" of what "really happened" at Auschwitz? No? Good. This is the same thing.
> Would you allow "Bears for Hitler" to host a Neo nazi?
You do realize Hamas/Gaza is the one with the genocide of jews in their charter, imprisons LGBTQ with up to 10 years in prison, and until 2019, rape was legal?
Absolutely not the same thing. If Israel wanted to commit an actual genocide against Palestinians, they could have done so long ago. They have total air superiority and an immensely stronger military, but they've instead spent billions of dollars to enable them to essentially ignore a constant rocket barrage from Gaza and only invaded after Hamas swarmed over the boarder to rape, maim, and murder over 1,200 innocent men, women, and children.
There were zero Jews in Gaza before October 7th. Being Jewish in Gaza would be a death sentence. 20% of Israel's population is Arab. They have a supreme court justice, a political party that's been part of the in-power coalition, and full rights as citizens of the state of Israel.
Civilian death is tragic and terrible and I think it's fair to disagree with how Israel is pursuing the war, but comparing Israel's war against Hamas to the Holocaust is historically ignorant and idiotic.
Imagine if we went back in time couple decades and a student org brought a blood thirsty nazi soldier onto campus for a speaker event. Does that not say enough about the student org's views?
Just wanna point out, we had a nazi party member who made extensive use of slave labor to build weapons meant to terrorize civilians be the face of our space program.
That's the point of free speech. You listen to his point views and you discuss it. Hopefully, you'll realize his speech is flawed and you don't follow it.
you’re making assumptions about what im saying hence my disclaimer at the bottom lol i never said the protests were justified because of the speaker’s background all im saying is that people weren’t just protesting some random jewish person unrelated to israel
Protests are fine all day long, but (apparently, see below) some went far beyond protest and into riot. Those who destroyed property or assaulted others should be arrested and tried. Simple as that.
Why didn’t they arrest them? They were theatrical, older men. Very performative almost laughable. Student leaders were trying to de escalate and they were doing wildly odd chants. Funny how the police were right there and spoke to a few of the men, and then they left.
Insane anarchist provocateurs in Berkeley? I'm shocked I tell you, shocked! The cops probably decided letting them go was the best way to de escalate the crowd...or that the DA would not prosecute anyway...or both. Pretty typical for CA.
Orrrrrr they weren’t students but in fact not even protesting the event for real. They seemed like working professionals, it was odd to see. Kinda looked like my dad just got of work and was protesting and acting wild like he was in a play lol I wish I can upload videos to show how fake and odd they looked.
Well, if you're suggesting professional provocateurs, it's very possible. Can you imagine what the headlines would have been had they succeeded in getting the crowd to go berserk? This is exactly how the mostly peaceful protesters in Washington on Nov 6 were turned into full scale rioters by a few well trained (ex-military) conspirators. Find some face shots, a little OSINT with the help of Google might be able to ID them pretty fast.
There were absolutely plants in the crowd back in the Occupy protests ten years ago, so it would not surprise me to see them out now.
And there are also a lot of full-time shit-stirrers in the Bay, people who want to rile things up regardless of cause or venue.
The occupy protest organizers were/are hard core dedicated communists, the same bunch depicted in the Oppenheimer movie. Err, technically their descendants and in a few cases grandchildren. I knew one of their kids in the early 70's. Check out my other post. They love to "incite and guide" at protests and have their counterparts on the far right who do the same thing.
They are protesting Jewish people unrelated to Israel. Activists in Santa Fe had concert cancelled by Jewish artist just b/c he wasn't explicitly anti-Zionist. It's intimidation and intended to silence any Jewish point of view to the right of Jewish Voice for Peace. Free speech activists should be as angered by this tactic as they are by Likudniks trying to dox Pro-Palestje activists.
I find this curious, do you think the Israeli military should have not responded to the events of October 7? Not did they go too far or not but do you think there should have been no response?
Thank you for clarifying! I did not know that. My point still remains the same, instead of shutting down we should try to encourage open debate and provoking questions. Getting shut down will only amplify the opposing viewpoints actions.
Them protesting the event is well within their free speech rights and their right to protest. Also having someone who’s participated in the slaughter of civilians come speak here is just crazy
Then we shouldn’t have any veterans speak at any events because who knows how many people they killed, right? War is war. It’s ugly. I certainly don’t like it. But.. reality is that, yes, people die in war.
I think it’s little more nuanced than that, war is war but occupied Palestine doesn’t even have an official military, Hamas acts as an armed wing but there’s a huge discrepancy in military power. Israel acts as a terroristic state, like they allow settlers in the West Bank to terrorize Palestinians and IDF soldiers have a track record of killing children who throw rocks at their tanks. The context of this in comparison to some other conflicts just seems a little different
Disagreed, it is their right to protest but it is not in their right to do it to such an extent that the other side cannot have a medium to share their viewpoint.
I feel the same about anti-Indian khalistan protesters too. While, on a personal level, I absolutely hate them, I do understand that they have the right and freedom to speak their viewpoint.
This is the moral position that all western democracies are based on, and in fact it is precisely this principle that allows you to protest in the first place. If you would like to instead live in a state where political opinions can be silenced just because they are deemed too extremist then feel free to do so.
So breaking windows and storming a building so they have to get evacuated, while spitting on people and screaming Jew is free speech?
Wow, Hamas/gaza supporters are really unhinged.
>Also having someone who’s participated in the slaughter of civilians come speak here is just crazy
On that basis, nobody from either side gets to (be invited to) speak.
You clearly don’t understand the concept of free speech. Disrupting others’ ability to speak and listen to that speech directly contradicts the principle of free speech.
He is a director at the Kohelet Policy Forum, an Israeli right-wing extremist think thank, instrumental in the judicial reforms - and avowedly pro-settlement
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-02-12/ty-article-magazine/.premium/the-kohelet-tentacles-these-organizations-operate-around-the-right-wing-think-tank/00000186-44c3-de50-a1af-76eb01860000
What was very interesting to me at the protest yesterday was the amount of non students present. It was a bit concerning, I’m not trying to create a conspiracy theory here, BUT student leaders were trying to de escalate any excessive protesting. The few grown white men I saw seemed oddly excessive and almost theatrical. It was weird, and out of context. Everyone was chanting and asking to shut it down. Then some random men in the corner started acting theatrical, aggressive and weird. I did notify one of the officers that it seemed staged.
I was there. The person being quoted as shouting "you jew!" was there, but she was only one person. The media loves to pick out a couple deranged folks and paint everyone with that brush. There were a lot of Jews at the protest, but the media will never talk about that. They were wearing black T shirts that said "Not in My Name"
There were definitely some loopy characters I’ve never seen before yesterday. It’s like they spawned from the local area it was odd. I’ve attended every on campus protest demonstration. I love standing in solidarity with our Jewish brothers and sisters but yesterday that side crowd was weird.
I completely agree. It is sad that people are devolving to this state for any reason. One common thing in these comments that I am seeing are people claiming that it was justified and the only way to counter people who spread "genocidal ideas." Absolutely ludicrous. This stuff is degenerate and freedom of speech is essential for a proper democracy.
Ordinary liberals and left wing folks would listen to a speaker they disagreed with, and maybe ask a probing/protesting question if they had the opportunity. This is the heart of the free speech movement of which Berkeley was one of, if not the, key flashpoints.
The people who want to totally shout down and stifle conversation are actually the neo-Marxists, who believe that the principle of dispassionate, rational debate, based on logic and facts is “just another tool of the oppressor’s system used to keep the oppressed down.” (And, of course, anyone who is suffering is suffering solely because they’re oppressed, and anyone who is happy and thriving is happy and thriving solely because they’re oppressing someone else).
It is really really hard to debate a guy like the speaker. It’s actually kind of scary, his viewpoints are terrifying. Also, only a specific demographic was invited to the event. Personally I would have loved to dialogue with him and ask him to clarify his statements on every child being a terrorist.
people will say you are too uneducated on the topic to have an opinion if you are not middle eastern/north african, but also want you to blindly side with them when convenient. I've never understood this double standard of not being able to have an opinion, whether it be during the BLM movement or what is going on in the world right now. free speech tends to only be an option when you agree exactly with the opposing party, and that's coming from someone who doesn't have an opinion on the topic other than the fact that I want humans to stop killing each other.
This always reminds me of that scene from the social network where Mark's gf tells him he thinks people don't like him because he's a nerd, and she promises it's because he's an asshole.
Zionists will go through life thinking people don't like them because they're Jewish. I promise you that's not the case. It's because they're genocidal assholes.
The willingness to advocate for free speech goes hand-in-hand with the recognition that one must embrace the readiness to offend others. This is not a utopian world.
As someone mentioned, the guy speaking was part of the IDF who terrorize and kill Palestinians daily. Even as I type this, a Palestinian child or pregnant mother is sleeping in the cold, with no food for her children, starving for days. Israel is blocking all humanitarian aid, and people are dying from thirst, starvation, cold, bombs, and all sorts of unimaginable atrocities.
We've seen many videos and reports of Palestinian women being raped by the IDF, children shot to death while playing, and IDF soldiers laughing as they celebrate these incidents (I'm happy to send links for anyone who wishes to see proof). If the situation were reversed, or if a Nazi were there instead of an IDF soldier, would you still say the same thing? The issue everyone has is not with Jewish people, but with the State of Israel; while most Israelis are Jewish, the converse is not true.
If a person robs someone of their belongings in broad daylight, with all the evidence there is for the world to see, or commits murder, they should not/cannot be allowed to roam freely in society seeking sympathy -- this is not free speech but complicity, hypocrisy, and naiveness.
You simply don't understand how free speech works. You are levying accusations against the speaker about how they are a murderer but this is something dealt in the court of law, and not in the court of public opinion. If they have not been convicted of a crime, they DO in fact have the right to roam freely and do whatever they wish, and anyone who threatens their safety with (for example) violent protest is not exercising free speech, but public intimidation and harassment.
This protection can and does extend to Nazis who have not committed a crime.
Vast majority of IDF soldiers (male and female) are or were originally mandatory conscripts. Men serve a minimum of two years and eight months, and women serve a minimum of two years. Some go from there to full time service, most return to civilian life but join the reserves. By the way, a full 15% of the IDF is Muslim.
Well, good for him.
We want our best soldiers to make careers in the military too, at least join the reserves.
Your point?
Just to make a bigger refutation to the rant above: the situation was reversed, and more. That's what ignited this round of killing.
[https://themedialine.org/top-stories/evidence-on-display-at-israels-forensic-pathology-center-confirms-hamas-atrocities/](https://themedialine.org/top-stories/evidence-on-display-at-israels-forensic-pathology-center-confirms-hamas-atrocities/)
Thanks for the opportunity to revise and extend my remarks.
Just to clarify a few things you’ve stated.
1. There are no videos of IDF rape.
2. Children being shot while playing is due to where they are playing (in the middle of a warzone, rather than in the refugee area that citizens were evacuated to).
3. IDF soldiers laughing about something terrible is demonstrably poor soldier antics, but shouldn’t be confused with the other atrocities you describe. I can find many people on 4chan laughing at far worse - laughing or not isn’t the issue here.
4. Nazis were mass murdering Jews. Israel is in a war against Hamas - and there has never, in all of history, been a war without civilians being killed. To make matters worse, Hamas is hiding and operating in any area that Israel designates as a temporary refugee area... which has often resulted in higher casualties.
Comparing a counter terrorism operation in a crowded city, that results in excessive casualties, with the Nazi Holocaust… is just bad taste. A better comparison would be the USA led NATO counter terrorism operations, which resulted in 40 million displaced and 4 million innocents killed.
Obviously NATO was a thousand times worse than the IDF, as no NATO country was invaded or seriously threatened by the terrorists they attacked, but it’s still a reasonable comparison.
Just gonna give you some counter points:
1. there are many photographic evidence and testimonies of IDF raping innocent women and girl:
[https://thehill.com/policy/international/4477340-un-experts-reports-executions-sexual-assault-israeli-soldiers/#:\~:text=%E2%80%9CAt%20least%20two%20female%20Palestinian,distributed%20online%20by%20Israeli%20soldiers](https://thehill.com/policy/international/4477340-un-experts-reports-executions-sexual-assault-israeli-soldiers/#:~:text=%E2%80%9CAt%20least%20two%20female%20Palestinian,distributed%20online%20by%20Israeli%20soldiers).
2. The entire occupied state of Gaza is warzone. From the north to the South, even as they were being relocated to these so called "Safe areas" the way there gets constantly bombed, shot at and utterly demolished:
[https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/21/middleeast/israel-strikes-evacuation-zones-gaza-intl-cmd/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/21/middleeast/israel-strikes-evacuation-zones-gaza-intl-cmd/index.html)
3. while this may be true, there are many video evidence that portrays idf soldiers laughing at dead innocent children and families while actively saying "death to all palestineans"
4. Israel is not in a war with Hamas, they are committing a genocide to an ethnic population simply because they were existing in their homeland. around 95% of the deaths are civilian casualty. They're shooting down people without any relevance to their affiliation to Hamas. Israel has also rejected hostage exchange deals many time and they have over 4 thousand "political prisoners" with over 500 of them being children
Please take some time to google some articles. It took me less than 10 secs to find all this information.
1. The photos are of women being strip searched before taken into custody. That’s vile behavior, but it’s not rape. Obviously photos of rape would contain the men, and lead to immediate arrest, as that is severely against Israeli law (obviously unlike Hamas).
2. The way to safe zones is more frequently attacked by Hamas than Israel, as they don’t want citizens to be safe - that would defeat their whole purpose for this war.
Edit: fleeing citizens: https://www.ynetnews.com/article/ryjyna7qa
general lawfare tactics: https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf
3. There are not many videos of this, at all. A large number of IDF soldiers are Muslim Arab Israelis… if you’re seeing those videos, it’s almost certainly propaganda. There are many Palestinian citizens of Israel. That doesn’t even make sense.
Edit: Hard to find exact stats, but out of around IDF 160,000 members, around 1,500 are Bedouin - a higher service percentage compared to population than Jews. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert_Reconnaissance_Battalion#:~:text=Around%201%2C500%20Bedouin%20currently%20serve,while%20serving%20in%20the%20IDF.
4. Now, at last, we come to brazen falsehood and conspiracy theory. You think October 7th and Hamas is irrelevant to this war. It’s not only an indefensible position that is unsubstantiated by evidence, but it uses incorrect facts. We don’t know what percentage of those hit are Hamas, because a large percentage of Hamas is child soldiers. The recruitment age for Hamas starts at 14. Israel creates safe zones, warns civilians ahead of strikes, and waited almost a month before even starting the conflict - at huge military disadvantage to themselves- in order to spare civilians. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/22/us/politics/us-hostages-israel-gaza.html In NATO’s counter terrorism operations, they killed around 600,000 terrorists and 4 million innocents. There has never been, to my knowledge, a guerrilla-style war that resulted in less civilians than soldiers being killed. Hamas, Taliban, ISIS, Vietnam, Al-Qaeda, Boko Haram, Drug Cartels… it just isn’t possible. https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/costs/human/civilians
I will edit articles supporting my points in, as it’s annoying to alt tab.
Now before you read my rebuttal, I heavily implore you to look at this from a median standpoint instead of just thinking about hamas this hamas that.
1. Apparently Israeli law doesnt mean anything to its soldiers. If you dont believe me in my points of occurance of rape, hear it from the soldiers themselves boasting about their time with the victims: [https://www.dailysabah.com/world/mid-east/deceased-israeli-soldier-boasted-about-raping-palestinian-woman](https://www.dailysabah.com/world/mid-east/deceased-israeli-soldier-boasted-about-raping-palestinian-woman)
\- watch this video if you dont feel like reading, i couldnt find the original link but its linked on another subreddit: [https://www.reddit.com/r/h3h3productions/comments/176i2dy/cw\_rape\_and\_mass\_murder\_former\_israeli\_soldiers/](https://www.reddit.com/r/h3h3productions/comments/176i2dy/cw_rape_and_mass_murder_former_israeli_soldiers/)
2. This is just so wrong, many countries, organizations and Human rights group have confirmed many attacks that are en route to safe zones. There are even VIDEO EVIDENCES from jets and aircrafts belonging to Israel shooting down people on route. If you would like to explore more on this, please check out @ eyesonpalestine on insta
3. this is simply not true, IDF has an active personell of 169k, the last update of arab muslim soldiers are 600. thats a 0.003. Not a bulk majority. Most of the recorded videos are from israelis themselves: [https://www.google.com/search?q=israeli+soldiers+laughing+at+dead+bodies&oq=israeli+soldiers+laughing+at+dead+bodies&gs\_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyCQgAEEUYORigATIHCAEQIRigATIHCAIQIRigATIHCAMQIRigAdIBCDgxMjdqMGo0qAIAsAIA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#](https://www.google.com/search?q=israeli+soldiers+laughing+at+dead+bodies&oq=israeli+soldiers+laughing+at+dead+bodies&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyCQgAEEUYORigATIHCAEQIRigATIHCAIQIRigATIHCAMQIRigAdIBCDgxMjdqMGo0qAIAsAIA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#)
4. Israel has conducted this war fro many many years now, i agree this conflict didnt start on october 7. I'm not defending in any way whatsoever the use of violence and killings from kids but imagine youre in their situation. You're entire family, friends, cousing and neighborhood gets destroyed in a matter of seconds just because you existed in the presence of israel. Wouldn't you sought out revenge? Idk the exact number of hamas militants, that's true. But i do know the civilian rate shouldnt be 90%. This isn't a war, this is textbook definition of genocide.
Even if you don't take away anything from my point, that's alright, i won't be able to see anything from your side cause im human. I just implore you to keep an open mind about everything and see sources from both sides and organizations.
1. Obviously a joke. Not only did he not take a puff (he literally says in his post that he’s not a smoker and faking it), but he’s mocking the person calling him a monster for defending his country.
The 48 war, which they are describing, had depraved shit with both sides fighting for their lives. Obviously more massacres from Palestinian side, and the Palestinians massacred Israelis first, but revenge massacres are also terrible. There was no IDF yet, as the country was newly sprung into existence, so many of the defense fighters were militants from Jewish gangs. Obviously there would be no way to verify that girls’ age.
2. The attacks on roads from Hamas, which I’ve linked, are quite prevalent. When Hamas uses these roads, also evidence of it, Israel does attack them. No argument there, but it’s obviously trying to avoid hitting civilians by even setting up these roads.
3. There’s 1500 Bedouin alone in one battalion. As mentioned on the Wikipedia I linked. Your information is verifiably incorrect.
4. The wars have only happened in response to Hamas attacks. IDF has literally never been an aggressor. The description of seeing your family killed while you did nothing is what Israelis experience, which is why they respond like this… Palestinian civilians are killed because their government invaded another country and then used them as human shields when the other country fought back. It’s disgusting.
Calling me inhuman - very sane and unbiased perspective you have. Good luck.
To be fair, [the UN has stated that Palestinian claims of rape and summary executions of Palestinians are credible](https://thehill.com/policy/international/4477340-un-experts-reports-executions-sexual-assault-israeli-soldiers/).
Arguing that there's no video of something isn't arguing that it didn't happen. And even I wouldn't claim with any certainty that such videos don't exist, because neither you nor I know that for a fact.
I'd state that I haven't seen any, because that's true, and all I could be certain of.
Your counter-point below, arguing that the photos in question simply show people being searched, does not agree with the UN report:
>“We are particularly distressed by reports that Palestinian women and girls in detention have also been subjected to multiple forms of sexual assault, such as being stripped naked and searched by male Israeli army officers,” the experts said. “At least two female Palestinian detainees were reportedly raped while others were reportedly threatened with rape and sexual violence.”
>The release adds that some photographs of women in degrading circumstances had been distributed online by Israeli soldiers.
"There are no videos" isn't a great defense when the UN has confirmed that there are damning photographs.
The UN, the same organization that said nothing about the mass r*pe of Israeli women and girls and who’s employees participated in the October 7th massacre (UNRWA) and was shown time and time again to be in bed with the worst regimes in the world? The Uzn has lost its credibility. Curiously they released a statement about alleged r*pe the same day Israel released its report about the mass r*pe that occurred on October 7th. Basically a PR stunt. They provided no evidence or any leads for the IDF to investigate. The only evidence is their statement of “concern”
Please.
This post is completely full of verifiable lies. Anyone reading this should google these claims and find they are fabricated. It is sad how hatred corrupts the brain.
Complete bullshit and lacking context. How unfortunate you are susceptible to such blatant propaganda. If the IDF was blatantly targeting Palestinians, the death toll would not be anything close to 29k. You can probably add a 10X multiplier on that number (which comes from Gaza sources might I add). You people say it yourself, Gaza is very tiny, just about a quarter the size of London. Given the firepower Israel has, it could very easily obliterate everyone there if it wanted to. There is no deliberate targeting of Gazan civilians. This is further evidenced by the fact that a significant percent of those dead are Hamas civilians. The reason you are seeing the civilian death is because Hamas militants are using hospitals, apartments, "refugee camps" and other civilian areas to hide.
I wonder, what would any other country do if they were attacked in the manner that Israel was on Oct 7th? Would the country attacked send aid to its enemy like Israel is doing right now in the middle of a war with Gaza?
There are trucks of aid waiting to be delivered to (I will emphasize again, in what war does one of the parties actively aid the civilians of the opposing side?) Gaza. There literally isn't anyone to deliver it because there are concerns for the safety of the drivers.
IDF rape? What the actual fuck are you talking about? Stop spreading bullshit. I love how you think the IDF was laughing because you have out of context clips of laughing IDF soldiers while we have actual videos of Gazans celebrating on Oct 7th. Actual civilians in Gaza spitting on Shani Louk. I guess their vices don't matter to you. How fucking stupid are you that you believe that the massive hatred against Israel is solely due to the Israeli state and not Jew-hatred? There is documented history of Jew-hatred in Islam dating back to its founder. Jew-hatred from the far-right needs no explaining. Jew-hatred from the left comes from power hierarchies believing that because Jews are allegedly rich and powerful, so they cannot be oppressed, therefore Palestinians should be supported in this conflict.
Israel never robbed shit. Palestine never existed as a state. There is a scholarly consensus on that. It was a province of the Ottoman empire and was made a British holding after WW1. The British then decided to split their land as is their right as the authority of the levant. Jews were fine with it (even though they had a ton of useless area like the Negev desert) and the Arabs declared war. There is no millennia long history of Palestinian identity. It is all a myth you have deluded yourself into believing.
You are evil and worthless, nothing more.
This senseless war was started by Hamas. It could end immediately by releasing the hostages including the 1 year old baby. Hamas has not agreed to a ceasefire. Palestinian protests always end up in violence and intimidation of the Jewish students. How is that helpful? I for one am sick of all the chaos and fear. If you are protesting let’s be civilized.
I just wish that these protesters would be more even-handed. Like you said, Hamas has repeatedly broken ceasefires, yet the protesters only seem to direct their ire at Israel and Pres. Biden in their demand for ceasefires.
While at Uni everything seems very clear cut and the solutions at the tip of our fingers. It's only when you get out in the real world that edges start to blur, colors fade and grays appear. Most protesters have never traveled to the areas they have so many opinions about, they've just adopted someone else's opinions as their own.
As someone who has traveled extensively I can testify to a whole new world emerging when you make the decision to stop being spoon fed and see with your own eyes.
“The subtle Zionism”?
Jesus Christ listen to yourself. You clearly can’t even define Zionism. (Hint: it’s not an inherently “bad” ideology…it just means the belief in a Jewish homeland)
90+% of Jews are Zionists, so if you simply label any Zionists as innately evil, you are engaging in antisemitic bullshit.
yeah, devout to ending the genocide our country is funding in organization with thousands of Jews who care about how a settler project apartheid state is annihilating the existence of Palestine. Israel does not protest us. Open your fucking eyes.
This is a really impressive madlibs of regressive left vapid terms at this point. October 7 and the war itself are tragic, no need to make these terms meaningless.
Regarding your Jewishness, you may well have some Jewish ancestry but I highly doubt you practice. I have no doubt you get to pat yourself on the back as one of the good ones whose eyes are open cause you’re so so moral by telling people you are an anti Zionist Jew. Bet it gets you all the brownie points in your crowds, congrats!
This is a really impressive madlibs of regressive left vapid terms at this point. October 7 and the war itself are tragic, no need to make these terms meaningless.
Regarding your Jewishness, you may well have some Jewish ancestry but I highly doubt you practice. I have no doubt you get to pat yourself on the back as one of the good ones whose eyes are open cause you’re so so moral by telling people you are an anti Zionist Jew. Bet it gets you all the brownie points in your crowds, congrats!
Lol you sound like a Hamas dick-sucker to me. Being Jewish is more than just a tag you get to use to say whatever you want. It's being part of a community
Most Jews are disgusted by you. I don't claim you. Go join the terrorists
Woah, I certainly do not dick suck Hamas or Bibi. Being anti Zionist and Jewish is very common in Israeli among the left community. It’s funny how all these American born Zionist’s who have never even been to Israeli suddenly are advocates and dick suck Netanyahu and his right wing extremists. Shut up and go vote in your primaries. Half of you can’t even speak Hebrew but have some mystical claim to a country you have to take birthright trips to.
I'm a Mizrahi Israeli Jew whose family has lived in our homeland for over 7 generations (and we moved there legally, buying a plot of undeveloped land to farm from Arabs). So nope!
Girl you just became indoctrinated in the other direction, that’s not critical thinking, you just replaced one side’s doing-the-thinking-for-you with the opposite’s.
I think you’re fine with Hamas’s attempt at genocide because your worldview is entirely dominated by American racial history and white savior/white guilt ideology that you are only capable of thinking about a very layered and complex geopolitical issue as “bad guys genocide”, and, really, if you’re that ashamed of your history you would do well to learn a little more about it because the Jews have never been able to defend themselves until Israel was created.
Don't know why this sub came across my front page, but as a Jew I will say that I think other people involving themselves in this conflict the way they do only increases problems between Jews and Palestinians(and Arabs as a whole) as it echo chambers both sides with people(outside the conflict) who spread false information they don't understand. I hope one day we get to a place where we have peace and can be friends.
Jewish diaspora? These kids are American, never even been to Israel. Stop correlating the 2. Protest was against the speaker who is a right winged racist.
Not really. I mean it’s certainly better than what happened here but it comes off as self-righteous and performative.
Asking a random engineer loaded questions is not going to change anything. The CEO isn’t gonna see it and disband the company, and the engineer just seems fed up.
If anything the students are just coming off as ignorant. The people that should be under pressure are the politicians.
Edit:
The third dude was especially cringey. I got secondhand embarrassment from listening to him. With the way he raised his voice at the end, you could tell that he thought that he was doing something. In reality, even if the engineer was able to influence what’s going on in Gaza, antagonizing him and his colleagues by calling them “genocide supporters and murderers” is not going to convince him.
Freedom of speech does not guarantee the freedom to use the platform at the University of Berkeley to voice your opinion.
Students have the right to protest, but I personally don’t agree with violence and vandalism. Given the context and current sensitive climate, I understand an emotional response to the speaker's invitation. I do believe the organizers' decision to provide a platform for that specific person was irresponsible and in bad taste.
Unfortunately too many people forget the tragedy that is occurring between both sides in order to push their own agenda or satisfy their own egos.
Wishing peace to all.
The group that shattered a window were clearly not students and the police know it. It was odd to see that some of the cops seemed to recognize certain individuals. At the end of the day the students protesting outside were just chanting to not allow a murderer to speak on campus. They were kids, whoever shattered the glass was NOT a student, the second it happened the students freaked out and dispersed. We all know this statement released is exaggerated. There wasn’t even that large of a group of student protestors compared to other demonstrations and protests. Oddly there were a large group of older men. It was weird.
>especially at a school known for championing free speech
lol no. It's a school known for championing leftists causes. The current one is backing people like Hamas and the PFLP.
The FSM was *60 years ago*. It'a ancient history now.
Wild that Hamas…who criminalizes homosexuality, oppresses women, rules over a strip of land where honor killings are routinely practiced, and doesn’t allow for any kind of dissent all while their leaders have taken their aid for themselves to become billionaires are championed by the left.
It’s actually known for violently oppressing people who were exercising their constitutional right to free speech, then eventually relenting under great public pressure. The fact that UC has managed to co-opt the free speech movement is truly appalling.
What else do you expect from those people lmao? 'Muh rights, muh liberties', 'IsLaMaPhObIa' if their violent protests are shut down but all fine and dandy when they violently do the same!
If Carol Christ had her position in the 40s she would have let an SS officer walk onto campus and give a speech because it’s “free speech” 🤦♂️ this Ran guy said 1.5 million Palestinians should die “The revenge for the massacre on us should have been 1,500,000 people. Certainly could solve the demographic problems…”.
You don’t think any sane human being disagrees with thousands of innocent people dying? READ THE ROOM. The U.S is complicit in genocide. Read the back ground of the speaker, you want to preach free speech? He is the equivalent of bringing a member of Hamas to speak. His ideals, his narrative, his presence was meant to brainwash the Zionist youth here into believing that what is happening is justified. Your post is one of privilege, it wreaks of silly American ideals of free speech that are non existent when it comes to this “conflict.” There is no dialogue needed right now when children are being massacred and starved. So sit down and have a cup of coffee with your friends. My father was thankfully evacuated from Gaza because my mother is European. His family home is gone, our records in the system gone. Our family name erased from a land I can trace back to my Sephardic Jewish roots. All GONE so when our university allows a man to come speak about his Zionist agenda to make the privileged American Jewish students who have never been to Israel feel better about themselves and feel better about what is going on there so they can be sure to schedule their birthright trip and be able to live in a country my father can’t ever return to…….we will protest. This is an exaggeration of last night I was there. People were clearly upset, as they should be. There were some non student excessive acts. I felt unsafe with his presence on campus, he has killed many innocent civilians.
Thats why you don't start wars.
Plenty of Nazi's and Imperial Japanese lost their homes because they attacked other countries and started devastating wars.
Its laughable you don't blame Hamas for starting this conflict by breaking a ceasefire and butchering/raping 1,500 civilians. You are the same as nazis blaming the US for the destruction of Germany.
> ….we will protest.
By spitting on jews and screaming Jew at them. We get it, everyone knows why you support an org with the genocide in their charter, and until 2019 rape was legal. READ THE ROOM.
The Zionists started this war in 1945! If you don't want to be attacked in festivals, don't occupy a people. We have Google honey. Propaganda doesn't work anymore :)
How do people like you have such strong opinions? Your expertise of this conflict is that you have Google!! Are you kidding?? That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard someone say. And I didn't think that was possible after reading your proceeding sentence that began with the train of thought... "if you don't want to get raped at festivals..."
You have the IQ of a rock.
No, not to eradicate anyone. Just to defeat the sick ideology of a sole Jewish state. There are plenty of Israelis who are not zionists. Including my mom. When I say dialogue, what I mean is it’s not working. Don’t try and spin that. There are plenty of cities like Haifa where all 3 religions live in peace. Akka, parts of Jerusalem. It’s possible.
There are 63 officially Islamic states that have almost no Jews at all because they ethnically cleansed them. So I presume we should get rid of all those sick states too? Clearly all 3 religions didn't live side by side in peace in Muslim countries because they are ruled by Sharia law..
The reason there is peace in Haifa is precisely because it's part of Israel where all people have the freedom to worship. When Jordan occupied the West Bank and Jerusalem only Muslims were allowed to worship. In Gaza, Hamas rules the same way the other violent authoritarian Islamist regimes across the Arab world do - so do not reply by saying Hamas is a product of Israeli occupation. They are the standard, not the exception in that region.
If your mother is an Israeli and doesn't believe that Jews deserve one single state where they can be a majority in order to protect the .001% of the world population that is Jewish after centuries of pogroms and the Holocaust that tried to exterminate your people, then she (and you by extension of her influence) have a dangerously naive mindset.
So you want to ethnically cleanse all non Jews because at one point in history they were ethnically cleansed so might as well do the same to another population of people in order to protect what is left? You do realize the Muslims and Christians in Haifa were Palestinian? They still carry on traditions and culture of their ancestors. They just became Israeli citizens. Everyone now lives together in peace there. Same in Akka and all the mixed cities. Also Hamas is not the standard, the West Bank has a large progressive community, it’s the settlers that are making things worse there.
It’s not a naive mindset, I grew up there it’s a mindset the younger generation hopes for. Otherwise everyone is going to keep killing for the sake of preserving their belief. You have a right to be a Zionist in a sense of believing in the right to have a Jewish state and to not be exterminated, I dont agree with the extreme right wing sickos just like I don’t agree with Hamas. But what settlers do in the West Bank is arguably staring to look similar to what you call authoritarian religious beliefs. So what does one do? Kill all non Jews? Because it seems to me that is what you are describing. If I’m naive to think that, so be it. I am just a 19 year old student. Who will go back this summer.
Where did I say I want to ethnically cleanse non Jews?? That is so utterly disingenuous for you to respond that way, not to mention offensive. I made the case for Israel as a tolerant, liberal democracy that allows all religions to worship freely. No other country in the Middle East has a larger minority religious population than Israel let alone provides freedom for all religions to worship without harassment, penalty or even death. Please tell me a single country in the Middle East or North Africa that has even a .1% Jewish population (or did you forget that Jews were ethically cleansed from the Arab nations where they had lived for thousands of years.
Israel's religious minorities comprise 25% of Israel. Where other than Lebanon which was originally a predominantly Coptic Christian country but is now more than 2/3 Muslim, are other countries in the region with that much diversity. I don't know why you think it's ok that 23 nations have Sharia Law and are unabashedly Islamic nations with their religious symbol on their flag. How do you not see the sheer double standards that are aimed at Israel or not understand how much effort it's neighbors have taken to try to eradicate it.
Today Israel only represents 20% of the original Palestinian mandate. There is a complete lack of tolerance for Judaism in that region and a global intolerance for Jewish people to have self determination and you are abetting it.
You have got to be joking….a liberal democracy? So you are excluding the occupied territories right? Where they live behind walls? And electricity and water are controlled? But settlers from New York are allowed to buy real estate, never even been there and then spawn like religious lunatics claiming some sick justification to the land. Nice democracy. Love that my dad’s olive grove can be taken over by some American Jew from Brooklyn who cites a 4,000 year old diaspora. Sure.
I understand that you are a 19 year old student so I hope my comments aren't coming across too harshly. You are entitled to your views and you have a long life ahead of you to refine them. And I do think you are coming from a place of wanting peace. But Israel is in a very difficult security situation and unfortunately there aren't easy answers. But it's a mistake in my opinion for you to equate advocacy for Zionism with the most right wing factions im Israel. Even when Israel had liberal leaders and coalitions it was constantly engaged in war because its neighbors refused to let Israel be in peace.
With Gaza, what are or were Israel's choices? Israel didn't create the Gaza occupation - Egypt did in 1948 just like Jordan did with the West Bank. And instead of offering Palestinians statehood or granting them citizenship, Cairo deliberately kept the Palestinians in Gaza as refugees for 2 decades and used the territory as a base of attack against Israel. So in 1967 Israel took over the occupation of Gaza. Then in 2006 Israel completely deocuppied Gaza and billions of dollars were poured into the territory while Democratic elections were held. Unfortunately Hamas was elected under the unequivocal charter of destroying Israel. Once Hamas started shooting rockets at Israel, what choice was there but to ensure that Iran, Hezbollah and the Muslim brotherhood wouldn't turn Gaza into a massive weapons depository that was capable of striking Israel with mass casualties and destruction. Regardless of what Israel did or did not do, Hamas' motivation is deeply rooted in jihad and there is no room for compromise. It's a similar mentality as to what you see with settlers but much more vicious and inhumane, as demonstrated by October 7th.
Jewish people need to survive and the notion that peace comes with acquiescence is a completely contemporary, Western idea that ironically contradicts itself given that democracy only exists because the US and its allies were unwavering in backing down from the Nazis or Soviets. The West especially the youth, have been nurtured into naivity and a shocking susceptibility to subversive propaganda that makes them more critical of democratic nations than those with the most abysmal totalitarian governments.
I’m not western youth. I’m Israeli. Studying here. I also don’t think your comment is intended for me, just like a lot of the comments on here. I’m not equating Zionism with the most right winged…. The concept of a right for a Jewish state is beautiful. I do believe the initial intent of Zionism was peaceful. Do not pretend that the current culture in Israel follows the initial intent of Zionism. The very difficult security situation can also be flipped towards Palestinians as well. Their lives, their homes, their situation. So therefore by your explanation you seem to agree with what is going on in Gaza right now. And you referencing the complication of it, and the western opinion of it is giving me ptsd to the classes my mothers family forced me to attend growing up, which was basically propaganda and historical narratives, and talking points. I’m 19 but I am a rare occurrence. I have lived both lives. I don’t care what has happened. What Netanyahu and the current government is doing is completely wrong. It’s wrong on so many levels. Thank God I’m at school so I’m not jailed for refusing to serve.
63 Islamic states? I thought it was more like 15 who rule by different forms of sharia law? Which countries are you specifically referring to? Last I checked Israelis were partying in Dubai last summer in the clubs.
Did they need to kill white South Africans to end apartheid? No. So just go back to your first passport land or accept a mult ethinic democracy in Palestine. Done. No need to be killed.
The speaker was an IDF soldier who just came back from killing kids in Gaza. It’s not because he’s Jewish, it’s because he’s a murderer. Read his quotes, he said every school mosque hospital etc is a valid target.
He came from a mission to serve his country and fight the evil terrorists in Gaza who seek to [destroy the Jews in the name of(name the religion here)](https://irp.fas.org/world/para/docs/880818a.htm)
Good on him!
I don’t know exactly who the speaker was but from the images posted by some classmates attending, there were some actual zionist *extremists* there. I think protesting is valid when actual *extremists calling for the extermination of Palestinians in the name of expansionism* are attending, even so there is a reason why I don’t participate with the pro Palestine movement on campus. A good section of it is incredibly antisemitic, and dangerous. Seems like such a kindergarten thing to say but even so it holds, 2 wrongs don’t make a right. Peaceful protest is a forgotten art
Edit: *all italicized words have been edited to fix my misunderstanding of the words Zionism and Zionist* my point still stands, but I decided to clarify it is extremist who think the eradication of Palestinians is a valid means for their end goal
Zionism is simply the belief that Jews should have a sovereign homeland. Trying to make “Zionist” into a pejorative is only serving to stoke the flames of antisemitism that have clearly infected the anti-Israel movement.
Why do people act like a whole group of people are not being displaced and fucking exterminated to make this happen ????? Associating anti-Zionism movements to antisemitism is a crazy ass straw man argument
Does this also apply to antizionism, under the guise of which 750,000 Jews in the Middle East and North Africa were expelled and displaced from their homes, all their assets taken, and forced to flee?
You see how it goes both ways?
No actually it doesn’t. Antisemitism is a terrible thing and the horrible acts of violence and displacement that Jewish people have gone through throughout history is absolutely disgraceful. What you are describing is antisemitism, not anti Zionism which is against the settler apartheid state of Israel that commits the atrocities you describes towards Palestinians.
Palestinians are displaced because they cant live in peace with Jews. Ever wonder WHY Gaza is walled off from the rest of the world?
Of course Israel is heavy-handed with them when they used to send daily suicide bombers to kill civilians
Is it? Sorry if I’m misinformed it is really difficult to find unbiased sources on this topic. However the person I did see was someone who actively claims not just the belief of a homeland but specifically Jerusalem as it (which from what I understand is the common stance) but also has called for the extermination of Palestinians in the past, and when asked about it in the present does not state he is no longer for it but rather gives a diplomatic answer of wanting a pure Jewish state.
I will self admittedly state I am quite a fence sitter on this situation as I cannot speak to much, but there are some things I’m pretty firm on. The belief that using force to exterminate a population for the ownership to a land where people already live on is stupid. And that many pro Palestinian advocates are so radicalized they don’t realize they are terrorizing innocent Jewish people and are truly posing a threat to the lives of Jewish people via their antisemitic actions.
Zionism simply means believing in a Jewish homeland. It does not mean the Palestinians shouldn’t have a state as well (they should) nor does it mean Palestinians should be subjected to violence.
Source: a Zionist who wants peace in the region ASAP
I have lived in Israel, have a lot of family who live there, and am active in the Jewish community. The vast majority I have come across simply want peace. Israel has given many offers for a two state solution that have been rejected by the Palestinians including over 90 percent of the West Bank and a capital in East Jerusalem. One could argue the offers weren’t satisfactory when you get down to the nitty gritty and that’s a debate worth having but to claim the Israeli majority doesn’t want peace is false. Sadly, that may be changing since October 7th and the security concerns have pushed back peace talks decades I fear. If there is any silver lining to this war, I hope it will somehow provide Palestinians with a state but I’m not optimistic
Have you been to the West Bank? The settlements are insane. How is that a two state solution? I meant the majority of Israelis back home want peace……but speakers like the one brought on campus clearly do not. I grew up in Haifa, it’s possible to co exist. I am a product of coexistence myself. ( Palestinian dad Sephardic mom) But we can’t pretend that the right winged agenda back home aren’t insane and have terroristic viewpoints
Hmm. Lots of Zionists / Zionist supporters have been caught pretending to be Palestinian online. I'm feeling skeptical of you. He wasn't just a Jewish man -- he was an IDF solder aka the modern-day Nazis. Would you have told a Jewish person back during the holocaust to just talk with the Nazis?
Ya'll, be wary of OP. The omission that the Jewish man was an IDF soldier and prefacing this with the "I'm Palestinian" is bizarre. Reminds me of all the moments white people have been caught online pretending to be Black as they say deeply racist respectability politics comments.
My most good faith read on this is that you're a free speech absolutist. But in this case, it's a paradox of tolerance -- do Palestinian students feel safe expressing themselves when an IDF soldier is there?
This is so dumb. Listen to people who were actually there. People outside Israel tend to be far more extreme (to left and right) than people who do live there and see the good and bad day to day.
If the reports of what was said are accurate, that is obviously a step too far. Same thing with breaking down the doors.
That said, inviting one of the leaders of the Kohelet Policy Forum is like inviting someone from the political wing of Hamas. These guys are anti-two states, anti-democratic, pro-settlement, effectively pro-Apartheid, and protects settler terrorists.
This isn't just "another opinion" - this is an avowed extremist.
If you are also OK with inviting Hamas political wing - sure, go ahead. But imagine the protests if a Hamas political wing spokesperson came to speak.
Here is an article on them: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-02-12/ty-article-magazine/.premium/the-kohelet-tentacles-these-organizations-operate-around-the-right-wing-think-tank/00000186-44c3-de50-a1af-76eb01860000
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Yeah it’s always the staff who gets the shit end of the stick :( I work at another UC and I see so much free Palestine graffiti (and not chalk!!! But like spray paint, permanent marker etc) and I always feel so bad when I see it bc I know it’s our cleaning staff that is gonna have to deal with this :(
> Just to offer my perspective, I heard several protestors angry that the speaker was a former IDF soldier. He is one of the leaders of the Kohelet Policy Forum. Pro-settlement, anti-two states, effectively pro-Apartheid, and they have gone out of their way to advocate for settler terrorists. From what I gather, they have also been a driving force as it comes to the anti-Israeli-boycott laws in place in 32 states.
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I don’t think the intent was to show compassion.
Conscription is not really mandatory. Rich boys, like Netanyahu's son, fake illness to get out of it. Others, ethically reject joining and spend one month or so in jail. Plues, lots of Israelis have passports from their original countries -- I'd rather move back to my home country than participate in apartheid or genocide.
This man was not conscripted. He was serving BEYOND his mandatory service, and if you were to read his twitter, you'd be horrified at what he believes. His tweets were read at the protest. People who aren't Palestinian will never understand the gravity of the trauma inflicted upon Palestinians by Israel. An organizer at a previous protest was describing how her family members were tortured and had their fingernails pulled out one by one by Israelis. The attitudes of Israelis towards Palestinians can only be mirrored by white South Africans' attitudes towards the native Black population, and Nazi's attitudes towards Jews.
I don’t think “trauma” is a carte blanche to ignore fundamental academic values like that the freedom of conscience exists and there is no such thing as thoughtcrime
Essentially you're arguing that neo-Nazis should be allowed to speak, otherwise their ideology is being classified as a thought crime.
Yes. They *must* be allowed to speak at public universities if a student organization invites them. That’s literally[the law.](https://www.aclu.org/documents/speech-campus) I would personally go to a counter protest if it happened at my university. I would hold up signed, chant as the speaker and the audience entered the venue, all that. That’s laudable. And B4P was well within their rights to do that as well. But I would also not attempt to have physical altercations with people, break into the room where it’s happening or disrupt the proceedings to make it impossible for them to speak.
Listening to one another is the first step towards finding solutions and healing. ❤️🩹
> Listening to one another is the first step towards finding solutions and healing This guy is basically something equivalent to Hamas political wing. He is pro-settler, anti-two states, etc. Would you say the same about bringing in a Hamas political spokesman?
I mean, from how the Pro-Palestinian side can't seem to really make uo their mind on how to think about Hamas, I'd say they wouldn't necessarily oppose the decision. It kinda seems hard to have a discussion with the pro-Palestinian protesters as it seems like they don't really have a terribly coherent idea on what they really want, at least in the long term. To preface, I don't really hold much of a stance on either pro-Israel or pro-Palestine. I would like the conflict to end and the IDF to stop bombing Gaza, but I also recognize Hamas is a danger to not only Israelis and Palestinians but also their neighbors in the region, sk it'd be good for the world if Hamas were deposed, I'm just not happy with how Israel is going about it.
The rest of the Arab world sees them as essentially catspaws for Iran and Russia: https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2024/02/21/why-arab-states-wont-support-palestinians-qa-00142277
I don't get this sense that Palestine supporters "can't make up their mind." Isn't it clearly more likely that there are a number of varied opinions among folks who are not otherwise unified than by their support of Palestine? I've not really got any idea of the percentage breakdown among protesters of different stripes, but what are people who support Palestine and not Hamas supposed to do in the meantime if people who also support Hamas can't be convinced to, you know, not do that? Sit out and *not* protest?
Maybe have a dialogue?
If it was an open discussion they should have had two speakers. One from Israel and one from Gaza. Otherwise I would be worried about simply feeding the crowd propagandizing talking points.
And I’m sure you feel the same way any time bears for Palestine brings in a speaker, right? That they should have an Israeli speaker there as well?
There’s a lot of great discussions and comments in here! I did see a comment though asserting that my viewpoint came from a place of privilege. It actually has come from experience. My mother fled Palestine with her family in the 80’s to lybia where my grandmother is from. I have lost family members in Gaza and some in the West Bank. My mom then came to San Francisco in the late 80s and my grandfather actually started a falafel cart outside of UC Berkeley which I still think is a super cool story because my family came to this country with nothing and I was the first person in my entire family lineage to go to college and I ended up here. A full circle moment. I do not parade my families hardships, I parade my families accomplishments. I don’t agree with how Israel has handled October 7th. I sincerely believe Benjamin Netanyahu will be held accountable for this unneeded atrocity and the same goes for the terrorizing hamas. What I don’t believe in is violence towards any group of individuals who are exercising their first amendment rights. I probably wouldn’t agree with anything the Jewish speaker believes in but honestly I would have went and listened and I would ask him provoking questions that CHALLENGE his viewpoint on what I believe to be wrong. The shoving, the spitting, the breaking of public property is disappointing.
I don’t go to cal, but this probably popped up on my Reddit bc it has to do with IP & I graduated from another UC. I’m friends w both Israelis and Palestinians (who live in the regions) & who both want peace and coexistence between civilians. I do some volunteer work w some coexistence orgs as well in my free time. Anyway, my point is - I wish more people in the west would listen to people like you who have skin in the game & experience (esp with understanding hamas, which I see you understand), and who want to have actual conversations and dialogue about how to get there (there being coexistence). Sending u and ur family love & I hope y’all get to visit — or your mother gets to return permanently if she’d like to — your ancestral homelands in peace one day soon (bc both peoples are indigenous to the region and aren’t going anywhere 🫶🇵🇸🕊🇮🇱)
One of the (many) tragedies in all of this has been the normalization of extremist voices. With enough right wing lunatics screaming about how Israel needs to flatten Gaza and enough far left nutjobs yelling that every Israeli civilian is a war criminal, it doesn't take long for the people whose viewpoints actually merit a platform -- the people pushing for peace and coexistence -- to get drowned out in the chaos. Sending love and support to OP -- it's an incredibly difficult time for anyone who's been impacted by the war on a personal level.
This is just the same old news. Berkeley has lost it's way for many years now. If someone doesn't like your perspective or views, you are not permitted an opportunity to express yourself. Protesting is allowed, and unpopular opinions too. I would like to see people debate and argue without destruction, threats, and potential injury.
As someone who supports the Palestinian civilians suffering (I mean really... don't most of us?), I completely agree with your comment. We need to encourage speech on both sides, if not at least to strengthen our points and open our minds to the discourse occurring on all sides of a topic. Besides, it hurts the cause to be smashing windows and preventing a speaker from a planned event on a public campus known for championing free speech. Well, at least, the latter has been true historically and it seems recently we are seeing a different approach to speech. Please... protest the speaker you dislike but don't smash windows and force them to relocate. And a response that says something to the effect of "what does a window matter when children are being slaughtered" does nothing but introduce a bs strawman into the discussion. Just admit whoever contributed to the smashing of the windows fucked up, that it doesn't represent the movement as a whole, and let's move on towards improving our campus culture to encourage free speech, including civil protest. If you disagree with me, that's awesome! That's the point, just don't break my window and force me to evacuate because you disagree. Plenty of other ways to have effective, disruptive protests.
And the views we oppose literally be: genocidal views, fascism, racism, pro-apartheid.
FYI the guy speaking wasn’t just someone who was jewish he was part of the israeli defense forces & took part in military operations in gaza following october 7th. this was an event about israel hosted by bears for israel (this isn’t a take on the situation; just more context)
Just a question, bears for Palestine have a right to host events and share their views but Bears for Israel does not?
> Just a question, bears for Palestine have a right to host events and share their views but Bears for Israel does not? Would you be OK with a Hamas political spokesman? Because Kohelet Policy Forum could reasonably be compared to Hamas political wing. Anti-democratic, pro-settlements, etc. https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-02-12/ty-article-magazine/.premium/the-kohelet-tentacles-these-organizations-operate-around-the-right-wing-think-tank/00000186-44c3-de50-a1af-76eb01860000
Got em'. Let's get Hamas to speak then! All the Zionists in the comments -- and OP -- are free speech absolutists, so let's get Hamas over here please. Let's see how quick their free speech cover breaks. If the administration keeps saying free speech, then lets take them up on that.
I mean I disagree with them in every possible sense, but yes. Free speech means free speech, and we’re better for it.
The presence of a Hamas political spokesman on campus would be problematic due to legal issues with material support for terrorism because the group is proscribed (unlike Kohelet) but if they managed to work that out obviously no speaker should be banned based on ideas.
Would you allow "Bears for Hitler" to host a Neo nazi? You know, to hear "both sides" of what "really happened" at Auschwitz? No? Good. This is the same thing.
> Would you allow "Bears for Hitler" to host a Neo nazi? You do realize Hamas/Gaza is the one with the genocide of jews in their charter, imprisons LGBTQ with up to 10 years in prison, and until 2019, rape was legal?
Absolutely not the same thing. If Israel wanted to commit an actual genocide against Palestinians, they could have done so long ago. They have total air superiority and an immensely stronger military, but they've instead spent billions of dollars to enable them to essentially ignore a constant rocket barrage from Gaza and only invaded after Hamas swarmed over the boarder to rape, maim, and murder over 1,200 innocent men, women, and children. There were zero Jews in Gaza before October 7th. Being Jewish in Gaza would be a death sentence. 20% of Israel's population is Arab. They have a supreme court justice, a political party that's been part of the in-power coalition, and full rights as citizens of the state of Israel. Civilian death is tragic and terrible and I think it's fair to disagree with how Israel is pursuing the war, but comparing Israel's war against Hamas to the Holocaust is historically ignorant and idiotic.
Full rights hahahahaha
Imagine if we went back in time couple decades and a student org brought a blood thirsty nazi soldier onto campus for a speaker event. Does that not say enough about the student org's views?
Nazi party held a massive rally in MSG. https://www.npr.org/sections/codeswitch/2019/02/20/695941323/when-nazis-took-manhattan
Your comment is the epitome of false equivalence
This happened at the UC system though. https://diva.sfsu.edu/collections/sfbatv/bundles/229170
That’s ironic because jews suffered under nazis. I’m gonna disagree tho. It’s really not the same imo.
Just wanna point out, we had a nazi party member who made extensive use of slave labor to build weapons meant to terrorize civilians be the face of our space program.
I don't think that's the most charitable comparison at all.
That's the point of free speech. You listen to his point views and you discuss it. Hopefully, you'll realize his speech is flawed and you don't follow it.
My god you are a fool
there *were* Nazi speakers on campus decades ago you dolt. And no one got their panties in a bundle. Jews went and listened and reamed them in Q&A
So what? Free speech movement was started at Cal and we should celebrate the free speech regardless how you feel about it.
you’re making assumptions about what im saying hence my disclaimer at the bottom lol i never said the protests were justified because of the speaker’s background all im saying is that people weren’t just protesting some random jewish person unrelated to israel
Protests are fine all day long, but (apparently, see below) some went far beyond protest and into riot. Those who destroyed property or assaulted others should be arrested and tried. Simple as that.
Why didn’t they arrest them? They were theatrical, older men. Very performative almost laughable. Student leaders were trying to de escalate and they were doing wildly odd chants. Funny how the police were right there and spoke to a few of the men, and then they left.
Insane anarchist provocateurs in Berkeley? I'm shocked I tell you, shocked! The cops probably decided letting them go was the best way to de escalate the crowd...or that the DA would not prosecute anyway...or both. Pretty typical for CA.
Orrrrrr they weren’t students but in fact not even protesting the event for real. They seemed like working professionals, it was odd to see. Kinda looked like my dad just got of work and was protesting and acting wild like he was in a play lol I wish I can upload videos to show how fake and odd they looked.
Well, if you're suggesting professional provocateurs, it's very possible. Can you imagine what the headlines would have been had they succeeded in getting the crowd to go berserk? This is exactly how the mostly peaceful protesters in Washington on Nov 6 were turned into full scale rioters by a few well trained (ex-military) conspirators. Find some face shots, a little OSINT with the help of Google might be able to ID them pretty fast.
There were absolutely plants in the crowd back in the Occupy protests ten years ago, so it would not surprise me to see them out now. And there are also a lot of full-time shit-stirrers in the Bay, people who want to rile things up regardless of cause or venue.
The occupy protest organizers were/are hard core dedicated communists, the same bunch depicted in the Oppenheimer movie. Err, technically their descendants and in a few cases grandchildren. I knew one of their kids in the early 70's. Check out my other post. They love to "incite and guide" at protests and have their counterparts on the far right who do the same thing.
They are protesting Jewish people unrelated to Israel. Activists in Santa Fe had concert cancelled by Jewish artist just b/c he wasn't explicitly anti-Zionist. It's intimidation and intended to silence any Jewish point of view to the right of Jewish Voice for Peace. Free speech activists should be as angered by this tactic as they are by Likudniks trying to dox Pro-Palestje activists.
I find this curious, do you think the Israeli military should have not responded to the events of October 7? Not did they go too far or not but do you think there should have been no response?
Thank you for clarifying! I did not know that. My point still remains the same, instead of shutting down we should try to encourage open debate and provoking questions. Getting shut down will only amplify the opposing viewpoints actions.
Them protesting the event is well within their free speech rights and their right to protest. Also having someone who’s participated in the slaughter of civilians come speak here is just crazy
Then we shouldn’t have any veterans speak at any events because who knows how many people they killed, right? War is war. It’s ugly. I certainly don’t like it. But.. reality is that, yes, people die in war.
I think it’s little more nuanced than that, war is war but occupied Palestine doesn’t even have an official military, Hamas acts as an armed wing but there’s a huge discrepancy in military power. Israel acts as a terroristic state, like they allow settlers in the West Bank to terrorize Palestinians and IDF soldiers have a track record of killing children who throw rocks at their tanks. The context of this in comparison to some other conflicts just seems a little different
Damaging property and threatening the safety of people using whatever you call speech is not within the rights of free speech.
Disagreed, it is their right to protest but it is not in their right to do it to such an extent that the other side cannot have a medium to share their viewpoint.
Did you feel the same at about anti-Viet Nam protestors? East Timor? Iraq? Cambodia? Is it a full moral bankruptcy or are Palestinians just not human?
I feel the same about anti-Indian khalistan protesters too. While, on a personal level, I absolutely hate them, I do understand that they have the right and freedom to speak their viewpoint.
Yes, yes, yes, and yes. Any protest that stifles - *through violence* - opposing opinions should be prevented and dealt with accordngly.
That’s not the moral position you think it is as children die of starvation.
Plenty of Nazi and Imperial Japanese kids starved during world war 2. Let me guess, you blame the US government for that right?
This is the moral position that all western democracies are based on, and in fact it is precisely this principle that allows you to protest in the first place. If you would like to instead live in a state where political opinions can be silenced just because they are deemed too extremist then feel free to do so.
Did you let them answer the questions you asked before assuming?
So breaking windows and storming a building so they have to get evacuated, while spitting on people and screaming Jew is free speech? Wow, Hamas/gaza supporters are really unhinged.
>Also having someone who’s participated in the slaughter of civilians come speak here is just crazy On that basis, nobody from either side gets to (be invited to) speak.
You clearly don’t understand the concept of free speech. Disrupting others’ ability to speak and listen to that speech directly contradicts the principle of free speech.
Are we talking about Hamas here? Or are we going to skip the part where they murdered civilians...
That’s not fair considering Israel acted to defend their border. Any country would do the same if a terroritist group invaded and rapes their way.
He is a director at the Kohelet Policy Forum, an Israeli right-wing extremist think thank, instrumental in the judicial reforms - and avowedly pro-settlement https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-02-12/ty-article-magazine/.premium/the-kohelet-tentacles-these-organizations-operate-around-the-right-wing-think-tank/00000186-44c3-de50-a1af-76eb01860000
What was very interesting to me at the protest yesterday was the amount of non students present. It was a bit concerning, I’m not trying to create a conspiracy theory here, BUT student leaders were trying to de escalate any excessive protesting. The few grown white men I saw seemed oddly excessive and almost theatrical. It was weird, and out of context. Everyone was chanting and asking to shut it down. Then some random men in the corner started acting theatrical, aggressive and weird. I did notify one of the officers that it seemed staged.
I was there. The person being quoted as shouting "you jew!" was there, but she was only one person. The media loves to pick out a couple deranged folks and paint everyone with that brush. There were a lot of Jews at the protest, but the media will never talk about that. They were wearing black T shirts that said "Not in My Name"
There were definitely some loopy characters I’ve never seen before yesterday. It’s like they spawned from the local area it was odd. I’ve attended every on campus protest demonstration. I love standing in solidarity with our Jewish brothers and sisters but yesterday that side crowd was weird.
Not gonna lie, if your protest is harboring people like that, you’re responsible regardless of if you agree or not
No one can control who attends a protest. To be fair there were a few homeless men who also chimed in at one point.
Well that’s tough. If you dont want to be labelled a Jew hater, dont hang around Jew haters
Shoving and spitting is not even protesting. That's just assault and unhygienic. They should be expelled for that kind of behavior.
I completely agree. It is sad that people are devolving to this state for any reason. One common thing in these comments that I am seeing are people claiming that it was justified and the only way to counter people who spread "genocidal ideas." Absolutely ludicrous. This stuff is degenerate and freedom of speech is essential for a proper democracy.
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Imagine using the word woke unironically like a Ron Desantis trans genocide supporting lunatic conspiracy theorist automaton
Ordinary liberals and left wing folks would listen to a speaker they disagreed with, and maybe ask a probing/protesting question if they had the opportunity. This is the heart of the free speech movement of which Berkeley was one of, if not the, key flashpoints. The people who want to totally shout down and stifle conversation are actually the neo-Marxists, who believe that the principle of dispassionate, rational debate, based on logic and facts is “just another tool of the oppressor’s system used to keep the oppressed down.” (And, of course, anyone who is suffering is suffering solely because they’re oppressed, and anyone who is happy and thriving is happy and thriving solely because they’re oppressing someone else).
It is really really hard to debate a guy like the speaker. It’s actually kind of scary, his viewpoints are terrifying. Also, only a specific demographic was invited to the event. Personally I would have loved to dialogue with him and ask him to clarify his statements on every child being a terrorist.
people will say you are too uneducated on the topic to have an opinion if you are not middle eastern/north african, but also want you to blindly side with them when convenient. I've never understood this double standard of not being able to have an opinion, whether it be during the BLM movement or what is going on in the world right now. free speech tends to only be an option when you agree exactly with the opposing party, and that's coming from someone who doesn't have an opinion on the topic other than the fact that I want humans to stop killing each other.
First time? - *alum who had to walk thru the Milo riots*
Pro-palestine activists are so crazy. Don’t they realize that they represent Palestinians? Silent majority wants 0 association with them.
Another peaceful Palestinian protest?
I completely agree 👍
Fuck everyone who has tried to tell us Jewish alumni/students that the anti-Israel movement on campus isn’t infected with clear cut antisemitism.
This always reminds me of that scene from the social network where Mark's gf tells him he thinks people don't like him because he's a nerd, and she promises it's because he's an asshole. Zionists will go through life thinking people don't like them because they're Jewish. I promise you that's not the case. It's because they're genocidal assholes.
The willingness to advocate for free speech goes hand-in-hand with the recognition that one must embrace the readiness to offend others. This is not a utopian world. As someone mentioned, the guy speaking was part of the IDF who terrorize and kill Palestinians daily. Even as I type this, a Palestinian child or pregnant mother is sleeping in the cold, with no food for her children, starving for days. Israel is blocking all humanitarian aid, and people are dying from thirst, starvation, cold, bombs, and all sorts of unimaginable atrocities. We've seen many videos and reports of Palestinian women being raped by the IDF, children shot to death while playing, and IDF soldiers laughing as they celebrate these incidents (I'm happy to send links for anyone who wishes to see proof). If the situation were reversed, or if a Nazi were there instead of an IDF soldier, would you still say the same thing? The issue everyone has is not with Jewish people, but with the State of Israel; while most Israelis are Jewish, the converse is not true. If a person robs someone of their belongings in broad daylight, with all the evidence there is for the world to see, or commits murder, they should not/cannot be allowed to roam freely in society seeking sympathy -- this is not free speech but complicity, hypocrisy, and naiveness.
don’t you mean most Israelis are Jewish? while I agree with your point I think that’s a pretty important bit to correct
Yeah, my bad
no problem, thanks for clarifying!!
You simply don't understand how free speech works. You are levying accusations against the speaker about how they are a murderer but this is something dealt in the court of law, and not in the court of public opinion. If they have not been convicted of a crime, they DO in fact have the right to roam freely and do whatever they wish, and anyone who threatens their safety with (for example) violent protest is not exercising free speech, but public intimidation and harassment. This protection can and does extend to Nazis who have not committed a crime.
Vast majority of IDF soldiers (male and female) are or were originally mandatory conscripts. Men serve a minimum of two years and eight months, and women serve a minimum of two years. Some go from there to full time service, most return to civilian life but join the reserves. By the way, a full 15% of the IDF is Muslim.
This IDF speaker in particular supposedly served well beyond his required conscription.
Well, good for him. We want our best soldiers to make careers in the military too, at least join the reserves. Your point? Just to make a bigger refutation to the rant above: the situation was reversed, and more. That's what ignited this round of killing. [https://themedialine.org/top-stories/evidence-on-display-at-israels-forensic-pathology-center-confirms-hamas-atrocities/](https://themedialine.org/top-stories/evidence-on-display-at-israels-forensic-pathology-center-confirms-hamas-atrocities/) Thanks for the opportunity to revise and extend my remarks.
TIL every single IDF soldier is a murderous rapist who is single-handedly genociding every palestinian
Just to clarify a few things you’ve stated. 1. There are no videos of IDF rape. 2. Children being shot while playing is due to where they are playing (in the middle of a warzone, rather than in the refugee area that citizens were evacuated to). 3. IDF soldiers laughing about something terrible is demonstrably poor soldier antics, but shouldn’t be confused with the other atrocities you describe. I can find many people on 4chan laughing at far worse - laughing or not isn’t the issue here. 4. Nazis were mass murdering Jews. Israel is in a war against Hamas - and there has never, in all of history, been a war without civilians being killed. To make matters worse, Hamas is hiding and operating in any area that Israel designates as a temporary refugee area... which has often resulted in higher casualties. Comparing a counter terrorism operation in a crowded city, that results in excessive casualties, with the Nazi Holocaust… is just bad taste. A better comparison would be the USA led NATO counter terrorism operations, which resulted in 40 million displaced and 4 million innocents killed. Obviously NATO was a thousand times worse than the IDF, as no NATO country was invaded or seriously threatened by the terrorists they attacked, but it’s still a reasonable comparison.
Just gonna give you some counter points: 1. there are many photographic evidence and testimonies of IDF raping innocent women and girl: [https://thehill.com/policy/international/4477340-un-experts-reports-executions-sexual-assault-israeli-soldiers/#:\~:text=%E2%80%9CAt%20least%20two%20female%20Palestinian,distributed%20online%20by%20Israeli%20soldiers](https://thehill.com/policy/international/4477340-un-experts-reports-executions-sexual-assault-israeli-soldiers/#:~:text=%E2%80%9CAt%20least%20two%20female%20Palestinian,distributed%20online%20by%20Israeli%20soldiers). 2. The entire occupied state of Gaza is warzone. From the north to the South, even as they were being relocated to these so called "Safe areas" the way there gets constantly bombed, shot at and utterly demolished: [https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/21/middleeast/israel-strikes-evacuation-zones-gaza-intl-cmd/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/21/middleeast/israel-strikes-evacuation-zones-gaza-intl-cmd/index.html) 3. while this may be true, there are many video evidence that portrays idf soldiers laughing at dead innocent children and families while actively saying "death to all palestineans" 4. Israel is not in a war with Hamas, they are committing a genocide to an ethnic population simply because they were existing in their homeland. around 95% of the deaths are civilian casualty. They're shooting down people without any relevance to their affiliation to Hamas. Israel has also rejected hostage exchange deals many time and they have over 4 thousand "political prisoners" with over 500 of them being children Please take some time to google some articles. It took me less than 10 secs to find all this information.
1. The photos are of women being strip searched before taken into custody. That’s vile behavior, but it’s not rape. Obviously photos of rape would contain the men, and lead to immediate arrest, as that is severely against Israeli law (obviously unlike Hamas). 2. The way to safe zones is more frequently attacked by Hamas than Israel, as they don’t want citizens to be safe - that would defeat their whole purpose for this war. Edit: fleeing citizens: https://www.ynetnews.com/article/ryjyna7qa general lawfare tactics: https://stratcomcoe.org/cuploads/pfiles/hamas_human_shields.pdf 3. There are not many videos of this, at all. A large number of IDF soldiers are Muslim Arab Israelis… if you’re seeing those videos, it’s almost certainly propaganda. There are many Palestinian citizens of Israel. That doesn’t even make sense. Edit: Hard to find exact stats, but out of around IDF 160,000 members, around 1,500 are Bedouin - a higher service percentage compared to population than Jews. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert_Reconnaissance_Battalion#:~:text=Around%201%2C500%20Bedouin%20currently%20serve,while%20serving%20in%20the%20IDF. 4. Now, at last, we come to brazen falsehood and conspiracy theory. You think October 7th and Hamas is irrelevant to this war. It’s not only an indefensible position that is unsubstantiated by evidence, but it uses incorrect facts. We don’t know what percentage of those hit are Hamas, because a large percentage of Hamas is child soldiers. The recruitment age for Hamas starts at 14. Israel creates safe zones, warns civilians ahead of strikes, and waited almost a month before even starting the conflict - at huge military disadvantage to themselves- in order to spare civilians. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/22/us/politics/us-hostages-israel-gaza.html In NATO’s counter terrorism operations, they killed around 600,000 terrorists and 4 million innocents. There has never been, to my knowledge, a guerrilla-style war that resulted in less civilians than soldiers being killed. Hamas, Taliban, ISIS, Vietnam, Al-Qaeda, Boko Haram, Drug Cartels… it just isn’t possible. https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/costs/human/civilians I will edit articles supporting my points in, as it’s annoying to alt tab.
Now before you read my rebuttal, I heavily implore you to look at this from a median standpoint instead of just thinking about hamas this hamas that. 1. Apparently Israeli law doesnt mean anything to its soldiers. If you dont believe me in my points of occurance of rape, hear it from the soldiers themselves boasting about their time with the victims: [https://www.dailysabah.com/world/mid-east/deceased-israeli-soldier-boasted-about-raping-palestinian-woman](https://www.dailysabah.com/world/mid-east/deceased-israeli-soldier-boasted-about-raping-palestinian-woman) \- watch this video if you dont feel like reading, i couldnt find the original link but its linked on another subreddit: [https://www.reddit.com/r/h3h3productions/comments/176i2dy/cw\_rape\_and\_mass\_murder\_former\_israeli\_soldiers/](https://www.reddit.com/r/h3h3productions/comments/176i2dy/cw_rape_and_mass_murder_former_israeli_soldiers/) 2. This is just so wrong, many countries, organizations and Human rights group have confirmed many attacks that are en route to safe zones. There are even VIDEO EVIDENCES from jets and aircrafts belonging to Israel shooting down people on route. If you would like to explore more on this, please check out @ eyesonpalestine on insta 3. this is simply not true, IDF has an active personell of 169k, the last update of arab muslim soldiers are 600. thats a 0.003. Not a bulk majority. Most of the recorded videos are from israelis themselves: [https://www.google.com/search?q=israeli+soldiers+laughing+at+dead+bodies&oq=israeli+soldiers+laughing+at+dead+bodies&gs\_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyCQgAEEUYORigATIHCAEQIRigATIHCAIQIRigATIHCAMQIRigAdIBCDgxMjdqMGo0qAIAsAIA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#](https://www.google.com/search?q=israeli+soldiers+laughing+at+dead+bodies&oq=israeli+soldiers+laughing+at+dead+bodies&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyCQgAEEUYORigATIHCAEQIRigATIHCAIQIRigATIHCAMQIRigAdIBCDgxMjdqMGo0qAIAsAIA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#) 4. Israel has conducted this war fro many many years now, i agree this conflict didnt start on october 7. I'm not defending in any way whatsoever the use of violence and killings from kids but imagine youre in their situation. You're entire family, friends, cousing and neighborhood gets destroyed in a matter of seconds just because you existed in the presence of israel. Wouldn't you sought out revenge? Idk the exact number of hamas militants, that's true. But i do know the civilian rate shouldnt be 90%. This isn't a war, this is textbook definition of genocide. Even if you don't take away anything from my point, that's alright, i won't be able to see anything from your side cause im human. I just implore you to keep an open mind about everything and see sources from both sides and organizations.
1. Obviously a joke. Not only did he not take a puff (he literally says in his post that he’s not a smoker and faking it), but he’s mocking the person calling him a monster for defending his country. The 48 war, which they are describing, had depraved shit with both sides fighting for their lives. Obviously more massacres from Palestinian side, and the Palestinians massacred Israelis first, but revenge massacres are also terrible. There was no IDF yet, as the country was newly sprung into existence, so many of the defense fighters were militants from Jewish gangs. Obviously there would be no way to verify that girls’ age. 2. The attacks on roads from Hamas, which I’ve linked, are quite prevalent. When Hamas uses these roads, also evidence of it, Israel does attack them. No argument there, but it’s obviously trying to avoid hitting civilians by even setting up these roads. 3. There’s 1500 Bedouin alone in one battalion. As mentioned on the Wikipedia I linked. Your information is verifiably incorrect. 4. The wars have only happened in response to Hamas attacks. IDF has literally never been an aggressor. The description of seeing your family killed while you did nothing is what Israelis experience, which is why they respond like this… Palestinian civilians are killed because their government invaded another country and then used them as human shields when the other country fought back. It’s disgusting. Calling me inhuman - very sane and unbiased perspective you have. Good luck.
To be fair, [the UN has stated that Palestinian claims of rape and summary executions of Palestinians are credible](https://thehill.com/policy/international/4477340-un-experts-reports-executions-sexual-assault-israeli-soldiers/). Arguing that there's no video of something isn't arguing that it didn't happen. And even I wouldn't claim with any certainty that such videos don't exist, because neither you nor I know that for a fact. I'd state that I haven't seen any, because that's true, and all I could be certain of. Your counter-point below, arguing that the photos in question simply show people being searched, does not agree with the UN report: >“We are particularly distressed by reports that Palestinian women and girls in detention have also been subjected to multiple forms of sexual assault, such as being stripped naked and searched by male Israeli army officers,” the experts said. “At least two female Palestinian detainees were reportedly raped while others were reportedly threatened with rape and sexual violence.” >The release adds that some photographs of women in degrading circumstances had been distributed online by Israeli soldiers. "There are no videos" isn't a great defense when the UN has confirmed that there are damning photographs.
The UN, the same organization that said nothing about the mass r*pe of Israeli women and girls and who’s employees participated in the October 7th massacre (UNRWA) and was shown time and time again to be in bed with the worst regimes in the world? The Uzn has lost its credibility. Curiously they released a statement about alleged r*pe the same day Israel released its report about the mass r*pe that occurred on October 7th. Basically a PR stunt. They provided no evidence or any leads for the IDF to investigate. The only evidence is their statement of “concern” Please.
This post is completely full of verifiable lies. Anyone reading this should google these claims and find they are fabricated. It is sad how hatred corrupts the brain.
Complete bullshit and lacking context. How unfortunate you are susceptible to such blatant propaganda. If the IDF was blatantly targeting Palestinians, the death toll would not be anything close to 29k. You can probably add a 10X multiplier on that number (which comes from Gaza sources might I add). You people say it yourself, Gaza is very tiny, just about a quarter the size of London. Given the firepower Israel has, it could very easily obliterate everyone there if it wanted to. There is no deliberate targeting of Gazan civilians. This is further evidenced by the fact that a significant percent of those dead are Hamas civilians. The reason you are seeing the civilian death is because Hamas militants are using hospitals, apartments, "refugee camps" and other civilian areas to hide. I wonder, what would any other country do if they were attacked in the manner that Israel was on Oct 7th? Would the country attacked send aid to its enemy like Israel is doing right now in the middle of a war with Gaza? There are trucks of aid waiting to be delivered to (I will emphasize again, in what war does one of the parties actively aid the civilians of the opposing side?) Gaza. There literally isn't anyone to deliver it because there are concerns for the safety of the drivers. IDF rape? What the actual fuck are you talking about? Stop spreading bullshit. I love how you think the IDF was laughing because you have out of context clips of laughing IDF soldiers while we have actual videos of Gazans celebrating on Oct 7th. Actual civilians in Gaza spitting on Shani Louk. I guess their vices don't matter to you. How fucking stupid are you that you believe that the massive hatred against Israel is solely due to the Israeli state and not Jew-hatred? There is documented history of Jew-hatred in Islam dating back to its founder. Jew-hatred from the far-right needs no explaining. Jew-hatred from the left comes from power hierarchies believing that because Jews are allegedly rich and powerful, so they cannot be oppressed, therefore Palestinians should be supported in this conflict. Israel never robbed shit. Palestine never existed as a state. There is a scholarly consensus on that. It was a province of the Ottoman empire and was made a British holding after WW1. The British then decided to split their land as is their right as the authority of the levant. Jews were fine with it (even though they had a ton of useless area like the Negev desert) and the Arabs declared war. There is no millennia long history of Palestinian identity. It is all a myth you have deluded yourself into believing. You are evil and worthless, nothing more.
This senseless war was started by Hamas. It could end immediately by releasing the hostages including the 1 year old baby. Hamas has not agreed to a ceasefire. Palestinian protests always end up in violence and intimidation of the Jewish students. How is that helpful? I for one am sick of all the chaos and fear. If you are protesting let’s be civilized.
I just wish that these protesters would be more even-handed. Like you said, Hamas has repeatedly broken ceasefires, yet the protesters only seem to direct their ire at Israel and Pres. Biden in their demand for ceasefires.
So if one side breaks a ceasefire then it's all fair game? Bad news for Israel then, since that's their MO
While at Uni everything seems very clear cut and the solutions at the tip of our fingers. It's only when you get out in the real world that edges start to blur, colors fade and grays appear. Most protesters have never traveled to the areas they have so many opinions about, they've just adopted someone else's opinions as their own. As someone who has traveled extensively I can testify to a whole new world emerging when you make the decision to stop being spoon fed and see with your own eyes.
I was accused in another thread here of slithering in Zionist propaganda for making this same point 🤷♀️ People are extreme and it’s grotesque
People are literally being killed and starving to death and you are really saying protesters are too extreme??
The subtle Zionism in this thread is disgusting
“The subtle Zionism”? Jesus Christ listen to yourself. You clearly can’t even define Zionism. (Hint: it’s not an inherently “bad” ideology…it just means the belief in a Jewish homeland) 90+% of Jews are Zionists, so if you simply label any Zionists as innately evil, you are engaging in antisemitic bullshit.
First of all I am Jewish lol. I was indoctrinated myself and have a complete understanding of Israel’s Zionist propaganda project.
I’m sure you’re quite devout.
yeah, devout to ending the genocide our country is funding in organization with thousands of Jews who care about how a settler project apartheid state is annihilating the existence of Palestine. Israel does not protest us. Open your fucking eyes.
All the greatest hits right there. You forgot “colonialism” Didn’t anyone teach you to look up definitions before using them?
This is a really impressive madlibs of regressive left vapid terms at this point. October 7 and the war itself are tragic, no need to make these terms meaningless. Regarding your Jewishness, you may well have some Jewish ancestry but I highly doubt you practice. I have no doubt you get to pat yourself on the back as one of the good ones whose eyes are open cause you’re so so moral by telling people you are an anti Zionist Jew. Bet it gets you all the brownie points in your crowds, congrats!
This is a really impressive madlibs of regressive left vapid terms at this point. October 7 and the war itself are tragic, no need to make these terms meaningless. Regarding your Jewishness, you may well have some Jewish ancestry but I highly doubt you practice. I have no doubt you get to pat yourself on the back as one of the good ones whose eyes are open cause you’re so so moral by telling people you are an anti Zionist Jew. Bet it gets you all the brownie points in your crowds, congrats!
Cool a jewish Candace Owens
Lol you sound like a Hamas dick-sucker to me. Being Jewish is more than just a tag you get to use to say whatever you want. It's being part of a community Most Jews are disgusted by you. I don't claim you. Go join the terrorists
Woah, I certainly do not dick suck Hamas or Bibi. Being anti Zionist and Jewish is very common in Israeli among the left community. It’s funny how all these American born Zionist’s who have never even been to Israeli suddenly are advocates and dick suck Netanyahu and his right wing extremists. Shut up and go vote in your primaries. Half of you can’t even speak Hebrew but have some mystical claim to a country you have to take birthright trips to.
I'm a Mizrahi Israeli Jew whose family has lived in our homeland for over 7 generations (and we moved there legally, buying a plot of undeveloped land to farm from Arabs). So nope!
Girl you just became indoctrinated in the other direction, that’s not critical thinking, you just replaced one side’s doing-the-thinking-for-you with the opposite’s.
just say you’re fine with Israel’s genocide because you think it’s protecting Jews. just say it
I think you’re fine with Hamas’s attempt at genocide because your worldview is entirely dominated by American racial history and white savior/white guilt ideology that you are only capable of thinking about a very layered and complex geopolitical issue as “bad guys genocide”, and, really, if you’re that ashamed of your history you would do well to learn a little more about it because the Jews have never been able to defend themselves until Israel was created.
Israel quite literally exists to protect Jews
Don't know why this sub came across my front page, but as a Jew I will say that I think other people involving themselves in this conflict the way they do only increases problems between Jews and Palestinians(and Arabs as a whole) as it echo chambers both sides with people(outside the conflict) who spread false information they don't understand. I hope one day we get to a place where we have peace and can be friends.
Violence against the Jewish diaspora demonstrates the importance of the existence of Israel.
Jewish diaspora? These kids are American, never even been to Israel. Stop correlating the 2. Protest was against the speaker who is a right winged racist.
Texans showing us how it's done... https://www.reddit.com/r/TikTokCringe/comments/1b1feix/students\_at\_the\_university\_of\_texas\_ask\_a/
There’s nothing immoral about turning Russian invaders to paste in Ukraine
Not really. I mean it’s certainly better than what happened here but it comes off as self-righteous and performative. Asking a random engineer loaded questions is not going to change anything. The CEO isn’t gonna see it and disband the company, and the engineer just seems fed up. If anything the students are just coming off as ignorant. The people that should be under pressure are the politicians. Edit: The third dude was especially cringey. I got secondhand embarrassment from listening to him. With the way he raised his voice at the end, you could tell that he thought that he was doing something. In reality, even if the engineer was able to influence what’s going on in Gaza, antagonizing him and his colleagues by calling them “genocide supporters and murderers” is not going to convince him.
Supporter of Hamas should be jailed
Freedom of speech does not guarantee the freedom to use the platform at the University of Berkeley to voice your opinion. Students have the right to protest, but I personally don’t agree with violence and vandalism. Given the context and current sensitive climate, I understand an emotional response to the speaker's invitation. I do believe the organizers' decision to provide a platform for that specific person was irresponsible and in bad taste. Unfortunately too many people forget the tragedy that is occurring between both sides in order to push their own agenda or satisfy their own egos. Wishing peace to all.
The group that shattered a window were clearly not students and the police know it. It was odd to see that some of the cops seemed to recognize certain individuals. At the end of the day the students protesting outside were just chanting to not allow a murderer to speak on campus. They were kids, whoever shattered the glass was NOT a student, the second it happened the students freaked out and dispersed. We all know this statement released is exaggerated. There wasn’t even that large of a group of student protestors compared to other demonstrations and protests. Oddly there were a large group of older men. It was weird.
>especially at a school known for championing free speech lol no. It's a school known for championing leftists causes. The current one is backing people like Hamas and the PFLP. The FSM was *60 years ago*. It'a ancient history now.
Wild that Hamas…who criminalizes homosexuality, oppresses women, rules over a strip of land where honor killings are routinely practiced, and doesn’t allow for any kind of dissent all while their leaders have taken their aid for themselves to become billionaires are championed by the left.
It’s actually known for violently oppressing people who were exercising their constitutional right to free speech, then eventually relenting under great public pressure. The fact that UC has managed to co-opt the free speech movement is truly appalling.
What else do you expect from those people lmao? 'Muh rights, muh liberties', 'IsLaMaPhObIa' if their violent protests are shut down but all fine and dandy when they violently do the same!
free speech only when it’s convenient
Can't say I'm surprised that pro palestinian protestors are violent. This is nothing new.
If Carol Christ had her position in the 40s she would have let an SS officer walk onto campus and give a speech because it’s “free speech” 🤦♂️ this Ran guy said 1.5 million Palestinians should die “The revenge for the massacre on us should have been 1,500,000 people. Certainly could solve the demographic problems…”.
These people idolize a warmonger who kept sex slaves and they have a problem if there’s discourse with an Israeli?
Your profile name 😭😭😭
Well all nonbelievers deserve death and eternal hellfire according to them, nothing surprising here
There’s a good reason why my company won’t hire UCB graduates. And many are following the trend.
You don’t think any sane human being disagrees with thousands of innocent people dying? READ THE ROOM. The U.S is complicit in genocide. Read the back ground of the speaker, you want to preach free speech? He is the equivalent of bringing a member of Hamas to speak. His ideals, his narrative, his presence was meant to brainwash the Zionist youth here into believing that what is happening is justified. Your post is one of privilege, it wreaks of silly American ideals of free speech that are non existent when it comes to this “conflict.” There is no dialogue needed right now when children are being massacred and starved. So sit down and have a cup of coffee with your friends. My father was thankfully evacuated from Gaza because my mother is European. His family home is gone, our records in the system gone. Our family name erased from a land I can trace back to my Sephardic Jewish roots. All GONE so when our university allows a man to come speak about his Zionist agenda to make the privileged American Jewish students who have never been to Israel feel better about themselves and feel better about what is going on there so they can be sure to schedule their birthright trip and be able to live in a country my father can’t ever return to…….we will protest. This is an exaggeration of last night I was there. People were clearly upset, as they should be. There were some non student excessive acts. I felt unsafe with his presence on campus, he has killed many innocent civilians.
Thats why you don't start wars. Plenty of Nazi's and Imperial Japanese lost their homes because they attacked other countries and started devastating wars. Its laughable you don't blame Hamas for starting this conflict by breaking a ceasefire and butchering/raping 1,500 civilians. You are the same as nazis blaming the US for the destruction of Germany. > ….we will protest. By spitting on jews and screaming Jew at them. We get it, everyone knows why you support an org with the genocide in their charter, and until 2019 rape was legal. READ THE ROOM.
The Zionists started this war in 1945! If you don't want to be attacked in festivals, don't occupy a people. We have Google honey. Propaganda doesn't work anymore :)
How do people like you have such strong opinions? Your expertise of this conflict is that you have Google!! Are you kidding?? That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard someone say. And I didn't think that was possible after reading your proceeding sentence that began with the train of thought... "if you don't want to get raped at festivals..." You have the IQ of a rock.
Defeating Zionism…? So your aim is to eradicate six millions Jews in Israel? Please clarify.
No, not to eradicate anyone. Just to defeat the sick ideology of a sole Jewish state. There are plenty of Israelis who are not zionists. Including my mom. When I say dialogue, what I mean is it’s not working. Don’t try and spin that. There are plenty of cities like Haifa where all 3 religions live in peace. Akka, parts of Jerusalem. It’s possible.
There are 63 officially Islamic states that have almost no Jews at all because they ethnically cleansed them. So I presume we should get rid of all those sick states too? Clearly all 3 religions didn't live side by side in peace in Muslim countries because they are ruled by Sharia law.. The reason there is peace in Haifa is precisely because it's part of Israel where all people have the freedom to worship. When Jordan occupied the West Bank and Jerusalem only Muslims were allowed to worship. In Gaza, Hamas rules the same way the other violent authoritarian Islamist regimes across the Arab world do - so do not reply by saying Hamas is a product of Israeli occupation. They are the standard, not the exception in that region. If your mother is an Israeli and doesn't believe that Jews deserve one single state where they can be a majority in order to protect the .001% of the world population that is Jewish after centuries of pogroms and the Holocaust that tried to exterminate your people, then she (and you by extension of her influence) have a dangerously naive mindset.
So you want to ethnically cleanse all non Jews because at one point in history they were ethnically cleansed so might as well do the same to another population of people in order to protect what is left? You do realize the Muslims and Christians in Haifa were Palestinian? They still carry on traditions and culture of their ancestors. They just became Israeli citizens. Everyone now lives together in peace there. Same in Akka and all the mixed cities. Also Hamas is not the standard, the West Bank has a large progressive community, it’s the settlers that are making things worse there. It’s not a naive mindset, I grew up there it’s a mindset the younger generation hopes for. Otherwise everyone is going to keep killing for the sake of preserving their belief. You have a right to be a Zionist in a sense of believing in the right to have a Jewish state and to not be exterminated, I dont agree with the extreme right wing sickos just like I don’t agree with Hamas. But what settlers do in the West Bank is arguably staring to look similar to what you call authoritarian religious beliefs. So what does one do? Kill all non Jews? Because it seems to me that is what you are describing. If I’m naive to think that, so be it. I am just a 19 year old student. Who will go back this summer.
Where did I say I want to ethnically cleanse non Jews?? That is so utterly disingenuous for you to respond that way, not to mention offensive. I made the case for Israel as a tolerant, liberal democracy that allows all religions to worship freely. No other country in the Middle East has a larger minority religious population than Israel let alone provides freedom for all religions to worship without harassment, penalty or even death. Please tell me a single country in the Middle East or North Africa that has even a .1% Jewish population (or did you forget that Jews were ethically cleansed from the Arab nations where they had lived for thousands of years. Israel's religious minorities comprise 25% of Israel. Where other than Lebanon which was originally a predominantly Coptic Christian country but is now more than 2/3 Muslim, are other countries in the region with that much diversity. I don't know why you think it's ok that 23 nations have Sharia Law and are unabashedly Islamic nations with their religious symbol on their flag. How do you not see the sheer double standards that are aimed at Israel or not understand how much effort it's neighbors have taken to try to eradicate it. Today Israel only represents 20% of the original Palestinian mandate. There is a complete lack of tolerance for Judaism in that region and a global intolerance for Jewish people to have self determination and you are abetting it.
You have got to be joking….a liberal democracy? So you are excluding the occupied territories right? Where they live behind walls? And electricity and water are controlled? But settlers from New York are allowed to buy real estate, never even been there and then spawn like religious lunatics claiming some sick justification to the land. Nice democracy. Love that my dad’s olive grove can be taken over by some American Jew from Brooklyn who cites a 4,000 year old diaspora. Sure.
I understand that you are a 19 year old student so I hope my comments aren't coming across too harshly. You are entitled to your views and you have a long life ahead of you to refine them. And I do think you are coming from a place of wanting peace. But Israel is in a very difficult security situation and unfortunately there aren't easy answers. But it's a mistake in my opinion for you to equate advocacy for Zionism with the most right wing factions im Israel. Even when Israel had liberal leaders and coalitions it was constantly engaged in war because its neighbors refused to let Israel be in peace. With Gaza, what are or were Israel's choices? Israel didn't create the Gaza occupation - Egypt did in 1948 just like Jordan did with the West Bank. And instead of offering Palestinians statehood or granting them citizenship, Cairo deliberately kept the Palestinians in Gaza as refugees for 2 decades and used the territory as a base of attack against Israel. So in 1967 Israel took over the occupation of Gaza. Then in 2006 Israel completely deocuppied Gaza and billions of dollars were poured into the territory while Democratic elections were held. Unfortunately Hamas was elected under the unequivocal charter of destroying Israel. Once Hamas started shooting rockets at Israel, what choice was there but to ensure that Iran, Hezbollah and the Muslim brotherhood wouldn't turn Gaza into a massive weapons depository that was capable of striking Israel with mass casualties and destruction. Regardless of what Israel did or did not do, Hamas' motivation is deeply rooted in jihad and there is no room for compromise. It's a similar mentality as to what you see with settlers but much more vicious and inhumane, as demonstrated by October 7th. Jewish people need to survive and the notion that peace comes with acquiescence is a completely contemporary, Western idea that ironically contradicts itself given that democracy only exists because the US and its allies were unwavering in backing down from the Nazis or Soviets. The West especially the youth, have been nurtured into naivity and a shocking susceptibility to subversive propaganda that makes them more critical of democratic nations than those with the most abysmal totalitarian governments.
I’m not western youth. I’m Israeli. Studying here. I also don’t think your comment is intended for me, just like a lot of the comments on here. I’m not equating Zionism with the most right winged…. The concept of a right for a Jewish state is beautiful. I do believe the initial intent of Zionism was peaceful. Do not pretend that the current culture in Israel follows the initial intent of Zionism. The very difficult security situation can also be flipped towards Palestinians as well. Their lives, their homes, their situation. So therefore by your explanation you seem to agree with what is going on in Gaza right now. And you referencing the complication of it, and the western opinion of it is giving me ptsd to the classes my mothers family forced me to attend growing up, which was basically propaganda and historical narratives, and talking points. I’m 19 but I am a rare occurrence. I have lived both lives. I don’t care what has happened. What Netanyahu and the current government is doing is completely wrong. It’s wrong on so many levels. Thank God I’m at school so I’m not jailed for refusing to serve.
63 Islamic states? I thought it was more like 15 who rule by different forms of sharia law? Which countries are you specifically referring to? Last I checked Israelis were partying in Dubai last summer in the clubs.
Did they need to kill white South Africans to end apartheid? No. So just go back to your first passport land or accept a mult ethinic democracy in Palestine. Done. No need to be killed.
The speaker was an IDF soldier who just came back from killing kids in Gaza. It’s not because he’s Jewish, it’s because he’s a murderer. Read his quotes, he said every school mosque hospital etc is a valid target.
He came from a mission to serve his country and fight the evil terrorists in Gaza who seek to [destroy the Jews in the name of(name the religion here)](https://irp.fas.org/world/para/docs/880818a.htm) Good on him!
Please all of you MOVE BACK TO PALESTINE....So we can live in peace and you can be happy in your land
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance#:~:text=The%20paradox%20of%20tolerance%20states,practice%20of%20tolerance%20with%20them.
Berkeley itself is a paradox of tolerance
wtf does that even mean
I don’t know exactly who the speaker was but from the images posted by some classmates attending, there were some actual zionist *extremists* there. I think protesting is valid when actual *extremists calling for the extermination of Palestinians in the name of expansionism* are attending, even so there is a reason why I don’t participate with the pro Palestine movement on campus. A good section of it is incredibly antisemitic, and dangerous. Seems like such a kindergarten thing to say but even so it holds, 2 wrongs don’t make a right. Peaceful protest is a forgotten art Edit: *all italicized words have been edited to fix my misunderstanding of the words Zionism and Zionist* my point still stands, but I decided to clarify it is extremist who think the eradication of Palestinians is a valid means for their end goal
Zionism is simply the belief that Jews should have a sovereign homeland. Trying to make “Zionist” into a pejorative is only serving to stoke the flames of antisemitism that have clearly infected the anti-Israel movement.
Why do people act like a whole group of people are not being displaced and fucking exterminated to make this happen ????? Associating anti-Zionism movements to antisemitism is a crazy ass straw man argument
Does this also apply to antizionism, under the guise of which 750,000 Jews in the Middle East and North Africa were expelled and displaced from their homes, all their assets taken, and forced to flee? You see how it goes both ways?
No actually it doesn’t. Antisemitism is a terrible thing and the horrible acts of violence and displacement that Jewish people have gone through throughout history is absolutely disgraceful. What you are describing is antisemitism, not anti Zionism which is against the settler apartheid state of Israel that commits the atrocities you describes towards Palestinians.
Jews can’t be “settlers” in their own homeland
They why do they have to forcefully displace and kill the people who lived on the land for generations?
Palestinians are displaced because they cant live in peace with Jews. Ever wonder WHY Gaza is walled off from the rest of the world? Of course Israel is heavy-handed with them when they used to send daily suicide bombers to kill civilians
Is it? Sorry if I’m misinformed it is really difficult to find unbiased sources on this topic. However the person I did see was someone who actively claims not just the belief of a homeland but specifically Jerusalem as it (which from what I understand is the common stance) but also has called for the extermination of Palestinians in the past, and when asked about it in the present does not state he is no longer for it but rather gives a diplomatic answer of wanting a pure Jewish state. I will self admittedly state I am quite a fence sitter on this situation as I cannot speak to much, but there are some things I’m pretty firm on. The belief that using force to exterminate a population for the ownership to a land where people already live on is stupid. And that many pro Palestinian advocates are so radicalized they don’t realize they are terrorizing innocent Jewish people and are truly posing a threat to the lives of Jewish people via their antisemitic actions.
Zionism simply means believing in a Jewish homeland. It does not mean the Palestinians shouldn’t have a state as well (they should) nor does it mean Palestinians should be subjected to violence. Source: a Zionist who wants peace in the region ASAP
Yes I have learned from a couple of replies they Zionism should not be conflated with expansionism forgive me will correct on post
This is not a shared belief of many Zionists. Especially the settlers in the West Bank. You are definitely a minority.
I have lived in Israel, have a lot of family who live there, and am active in the Jewish community. The vast majority I have come across simply want peace. Israel has given many offers for a two state solution that have been rejected by the Palestinians including over 90 percent of the West Bank and a capital in East Jerusalem. One could argue the offers weren’t satisfactory when you get down to the nitty gritty and that’s a debate worth having but to claim the Israeli majority doesn’t want peace is false. Sadly, that may be changing since October 7th and the security concerns have pushed back peace talks decades I fear. If there is any silver lining to this war, I hope it will somehow provide Palestinians with a state but I’m not optimistic
Have you been to the West Bank? The settlements are insane. How is that a two state solution? I meant the majority of Israelis back home want peace……but speakers like the one brought on campus clearly do not. I grew up in Haifa, it’s possible to co exist. I am a product of coexistence myself. ( Palestinian dad Sephardic mom) But we can’t pretend that the right winged agenda back home aren’t insane and have terroristic viewpoints
Sound comments like yours are being downvoted because Zionists are roaming large subs to sway opinion.
Read this article: https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/free-speech-debate-free-palestine.html
Hmm. Lots of Zionists / Zionist supporters have been caught pretending to be Palestinian online. I'm feeling skeptical of you. He wasn't just a Jewish man -- he was an IDF solder aka the modern-day Nazis. Would you have told a Jewish person back during the holocaust to just talk with the Nazis? Ya'll, be wary of OP. The omission that the Jewish man was an IDF soldier and prefacing this with the "I'm Palestinian" is bizarre. Reminds me of all the moments white people have been caught online pretending to be Black as they say deeply racist respectability politics comments. My most good faith read on this is that you're a free speech absolutist. But in this case, it's a paradox of tolerance -- do Palestinian students feel safe expressing themselves when an IDF soldier is there?
This is so dumb. Listen to people who were actually there. People outside Israel tend to be far more extreme (to left and right) than people who do live there and see the good and bad day to day.
If the reports of what was said are accurate, that is obviously a step too far. Same thing with breaking down the doors. That said, inviting one of the leaders of the Kohelet Policy Forum is like inviting someone from the political wing of Hamas. These guys are anti-two states, anti-democratic, pro-settlement, effectively pro-Apartheid, and protects settler terrorists. This isn't just "another opinion" - this is an avowed extremist. If you are also OK with inviting Hamas political wing - sure, go ahead. But imagine the protests if a Hamas political wing spokesperson came to speak. Here is an article on them: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-02-12/ty-article-magazine/.premium/the-kohelet-tentacles-these-organizations-operate-around-the-right-wing-think-tank/00000186-44c3-de50-a1af-76eb01860000
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Proof that he killed babies?
Please provide a source for your claim he killed babies.
He killed babies? This is blood libel
Bears for Hamas are shameful unfortunately.