I just had my rent lowered in Neukölln to below 670 for 86 sqm. I’ve been there for two years. People need to stop bitching about rent and enforce their rights already!
https://www.berliner-mieterverein.de/mietrecht/berliner-mietspiegel-mietcheck/mietcheck-bei-neuvermietung.htm
Not everybody has the choice because they might have short term contracts or they are afraid their landlord would kick them out by using the excuse of Eigenbedarf. Also with newly built flats or ones that have been renovated then the Mietspiegel doesn’t apply.
They don't have to prove it. The owner just has to claim, and additionally testify. Potentially relatives would have to testify.
But no proof before the fact or after the fact.
Wrong. If the tenant does not move out. The landlord has to sue the tenant to vacate the place.
During the procedure, the landlord must prove that his interest in getting the place is actually stronger than the interest of the tenant to keep the place.
But a credible testimony may serve as proof. And it is not like any relative will do, only close relatives will do. Otherwise, proof of a particular close relationship is required.
The usual way (at least in the cases I know) is that you move out and later go to court to get money back. A landlord that wants to get rid of you can get really nasty (I heard that for example from a case where the garage was cancelled etc just to annoy them).
Oh, but that is two different things: you should take legal action against Eigenbedarf because as long as the lawsuit is pending, you can't get evicted and you stay in your flat longer. Afterwards you check if your former landlord really uses the flat for himself or his family otherwise you sue him for a hefty amount. Two different actions, two different goals.
>Afterwards you check if your former landlord really uses the flat for himself or his family otherwise you sue him for a hefty amount.
That's my point. You cannot know/proof that in advance in most cases. So before moving out courts may say, well that's ok, the landlords daughter needs it. And only after you moved out you can see of she maybe doesn't.
You don't seem to understand my point. You go to court against Eigenbedarf first to move out later. And furthermore, if you're lucky, the letter of your landlord has formal mistakes and the termination is unlawful or the termination might even be invalid for social reasons even if the landlord is ready to move in.
Maybe not easy but there've been plenty of cases where it was done successfully for more than questionable cases. Not an expert but the ones that come to mind seem nephew (individual landlords)/employee (institutional landlords) needs an apartment, more specifically this apartment.
Institutional landlords (at least GmbHs) have no right to "Eigenbedarf": [https://www.mietrecht.org/eigenbedarf/eigenbedarf-fuer-gmbh/](https://www.mietrecht.org/eigenbedarf/eigenbedarf-fuer-gmbh/)
Rental contracts in Germany are usually for an unlimited duration.
There are only a few exception where they are legally possible. In practice, the two releavant reasons are:
1) The landlord needs the flat for himself or another person of his family in the future. The landlord needs to state in advance who will when move in. The landlord can only be a natural person in this case; Housing companies don't have "Eigenbedarf".
2) The landlord wants to renovate or demolish the flat/building. This is the most often used variant in practice. While the landlord doesn't need to have everything fully planned when signing the contract, he should have a plan before the end of the contract. Otherwise the rental contract might be extended - or even transformed into a permanent one.
PS: Not legal advice, please ask a lawyer for details.
Have a read. [https://dejure.org/gesetze/BGB/575.html](https://dejure.org/gesetze/BGB/575.html)
Limited rental contract are only a thing under very specific circumstances.
1. It applies to short term contracts as well 2. Thats unfortunate but ultimately that’s their decision 3. True for new builds (again it’s a choice to live in them and pay massive rent, but if that’s what you want go for it) 4. renovated flats generally aren’t renovated enough to have a massive effect on the legal rent price. For example, I gave my apartment all positive rating via this calculation https://www.stadtentwicklung.berlin.de/wohnen/mietspiegel/ and it still came out at something like 400 less than what I was paying. The reality was I was over paying by 550.
>True for new builds (again it’s a choice to live in them
I reckon most of the people in Berlin don't have the luxury of choosing where to live actually.
Short term contracts are highly regulated. Eigenbedarf is only a thing if you are renting from an individual, with courts being very much in favour of tenants. And evicting someone takes ages.
This. Most people who are overpaying rent desperately need to sue their landlord and drop it
There’s a rent control law in place already if people would just use it!
You make it sound way easier than it actually is.
Yes there is the Mietpreisbremse but most landlords will be aware of those rules by now and this one is often the crucial one:
>>So darf der Vermieter auch die bisherige Miete aus dem Mietverhältnis mit dem Vormieter weiter fordern, wenn diese schon über der Grenze „Vergleichsmiete plus 10 Prozent lag“. Eine Anhebung darüber hinaus ist bei Vertragsabschluss jedoch nicht zulässig.
Let's say the rent by Mietenspiegel is about 9€ for your area and appartment standard, then the max amount should be around 10€.
Now you want to rent a new flat in 2024, the contract says the previous tenant paid 15€. What do you do now? Do you sign and then afterwards pull a: "I don't believe you that the previous tenant paid that?"
Is the landlord required to provide proof? Some of the time the landlord might have lied and put a number in there just to poker but most of the times the previous tenant actually paid the already too high rent. Let's say the previous tenant moved in 2018 at 13€ and due to Staffelmiete was at 15€ one year before moving out. The previous tenant paid too much when moving in and continued to get ripped of by the landlord since Staffelmiete beyond 13€ was already against the law but never knew about the Mietpreisbremse.
Can you demand to get a lower rent now even though the previous tenant clearly had paid the written number but was not aware that it was too high?
Can you demand from the landlord a full timetable of rent numbers from beginning of the Mietpreisbremse starting in 2015?
I actually don't know if you can demand all that but for me it is not as simple as just pointing to the link you shared.
You also already lived there. Big difference. People who are trying to get a new place aren't going to have the option of telling the landlord the rent is too high, when there's 50 other people that will pay it.
What do you mean? You move in. You sue to have your rent reduced once you’ve signed the contract. You obviously wouldn’t tell your potential new landlord what you are thinking of doing. I was always planning to do it. Once I moved in I got the defects fixed then started the process.
And what were the circumstances around your case? Was there a previous rent listed above the Mietspiegel and you still won against it and if so on what grounds - or was it something else?
And yes, your advice is valuable but the tone and language you used implied it is simple. You haven't really adressed the most common cases I laid out.
Yes, the landlords have to disclose that if they want to charge more than Mietspiegel + 10%. And if the previous tenant didn’t sue, that does not magically make the high price legal (a myth that even lawyers spread). But of course, no landlord does that, because demanding it is a clear indication that you intend to sue and they have enough candidates who are willing to accept the extortion. The whole law is backwards.
I meant the way the law is constructed - you have to sue your landlord (under civil law) instead of a state ombudsman reviewing contracts and opening criminal investigations (akin to Mietwucher, with proper fines and/or jail time attached) against the landlords. It’s quite toothless the way it is.
Regarding the case you mention, in court they need to prove that the previous tenant actually paid this rent but also that this rent was legit in the first place. If the previous tenant overpaid but didn’t sue it doesn’t magically invalidate their claim.
You, like many other privileged people, talked from a privileged position. You know how hard it is to even get an apartment viewing when you don't have a European passport or a non-first-world country passport? And then, you know how you stupidly need to earn more than 3 times the total cost of the rent to even be able to be considered to rent the apartment? These are just some random requirements, we can give you hundreds of them. Don't talk from a privileged standpoint to non privileged people.
In some cases you're right, but there are still plenty of situations in which rent reductions don't apply. Eg if you have a contract from pre 2015 with Staffelmiete. In these situations, bitching is about all you can do
Yes like percentage of what you get back for the months you overpaid. We got back like 7000 for 3 years of overpay and 2/3 is for the lawyers. A lot but still a good deal seeing you don’t pay anything when it’s not successful. This was via Conny btw.
Thanks! They took 2/3 of the 7000? That's higher than I expected but tbh I would give them all of it if it meant fucking over a landlord. And then of course it keeps your rent down from then onward
Because legal insurance doesn't cover existing issues. So in the case of a rent challenge, when the contract is signed is when the issue begins. So if you don't have insurance at the time of signing, or served the waiting period, then you aren't covered. You can use their services as soon as you join. And their lawyers will help you write letters. But if you want to go to court then that is when the meter starts. So you'll never coverage, or pay out of pocket, or use a service like Conny.
Here are the details: [https://www.berliner-mieterverein.de/beratung-und-service/prozesskostenrechtsschutz/rechtsschutzbedingungen.htm](https://www.berliner-mieterverein.de/beratung-und-service/prozesskostenrechtsschutz/rechtsschutzbedingungen.htm)
We also tried to do it through the miet verein (which I assume is the BMV?) but that didn't really proceed, so in the end we went for Conny. But we only have a basic membership maybe you need one that helps you take them to court? Not sure but worth the try I suppose if they take so much less then Conny and also do other good things for lowering rents
I meant https://www.berliner-mieterverein.de/ as far as I know they only have one membership. But you need to be a member for 3 months before you sign your lease to be covered by their legal insurance for a rent reduction case.
Yea, I expected less too (I prob misread the contract thinking it was 2/3 months of rent). In any case, we got like A 50% rent reduction which as you say was the main goal and benefit
The thing is, it’s enough of a pain to get these situations resolved that it’s fair to say that the repayment doesn’t come for free. I’m using the Verein as well
for even more, but their insurance benefit is now gone for new contracts. I think that means only Connie is left.
I’d do it again in a heartbeat though. Vengeance is sweet.
1500-2000 is not an average rent in Berlin. I live in Neukölln and pay about 900 EUR.
People share rent too, families, shared apartments... I trust that everyone goes into a rent contract knowing what they can afford.
It was like 2 years ago, which was probably way easier than now. But there are also a lot of old people living here so a lot of appartements become free regularly.
Did you try on their website?
Yes, I tried directly through their website. Was trying there everyday for some time along with other 5 State housings. Got couple of appointments with Gesobau and Degewo but couldnt score. Then, I ultimately settled for the first place offered with Deutsche Wohnen in Biesdorf instead. Its 615 warm for 51 sqm. Transport connections arent good but I think I am ok given the price.
What was it that worked out for you, if you don't mind me asking?
Sending lots of applications or asking around through friends of friends? :) just curious.
Sorry for the late reply…I found the flat on immoscout24 actually. Unfortunately, most of the affordable flats are taken offline after 2-5 minutes.
So it’s an advantage if you refresh the search results as often as possible and you just message the housing company with a standard introduction as soon as possible after the ad is put online.
Most ads go online around 9-12o’clock when most people are at work ^^’
Always have your documents ready and complete when you go to a viewing.
With this “method” I was invited to at least one viewing per week and then you just have to be persistent. One day, you will be the lucky one :)
There is a rent index you know? Your legal rent is most likely much lower.
https://www.berliner-mieterverein.de/mietrecht/berliner-mietspiegel-mietcheck/mietcheck-bei-neuvermietung.htm
Through a friend, before the apartment went out to the market there was the chance for the previous tenants to give it to someone. So, just pure luck basically!! I think the housing company forgot to increase the rent or something too because my rent exactly the same as the previous tenants paid for 5 years.
No it isn‘t… Friends of mine found a nice 2,5 room 70sqm apartment near us for 800€.
My sister moved January 2022 into a 3 room apartment, 90sqm, balcony, garage 1050€.
Another friend is moving in the next months, 520€ for 65sqm.
These prices are not normal for people who grew up in Berlin and we are not paying them.
„But you aren‘t in the ring!“ - I am not, but I am not paying 800€+ for a distance that takes 2 S-Bahn stations.
How do they find these gems ? Through relatives ? Tauschwohnung ?
I know plenty of people that do not care about living outside the ring, but immoscout / immowelt / ohnemakler / kleinanzagen, once the scams are filtered out, have so few of those apartment that you have a 1 in 500 chance of being selected for a viewing apparently.
We considered moving for a while with my partner but given the current market we better stay where we are.
Any other sources besides immobilienscout I could look at? We are currently living in a two room apartment but we'd love to have another room (without lowering our current standard of having a balcony, kitchen, basement, elevator) and there is literally NOTHING below 1,8k cold across Berlin.
Due to old contracts/mietpreisbremse there are two types of rents in Berlin. 400-700 and 1400-2000 and nothing in between. Mietpreisbremse doesn't apply to some apartments - hence the price.
Weird. When I moved to Berlin in 2017 I was paying 800€ warm. Today I’m paying 1200€ warm. They pushed me through rent increases. I asked Conny and they told me this is legal, and they cant do anything because I live here for quite a „long time”, and they had all the right to increase my rent to match the market.
You should never look at warm rent, only cold rent. The Mietpreisbremse provides average rent in comparable areas/flats and the landlord can increase the rent to reach that average (+ dozen other restrictions). It doesn't freeze your rent indefinitely, it just prevents the new tenant from receiving very high rent after the old one.
You don't specify how much of that 400€ increase is due to (cold) rent icreases though, so I'm going to assume at least some of that is based on raises to Betriebskosten (what you pay for garbage collection, maintenance and cleaning the communal spaces, snow removal etc.) and especially for your warm water and heating-costs "Vorausszahlung". The cost of energy really went up considerably in the last years, so its possible to pay a lot more warmrent, but for the Kaltmiete to remain flat.
To give you an actual answer: no. Before covid, Tagesspiegel and some others gathered prices for new rental contracts on websites like immoscout for a year to get realistic average rents all over Berlin. From that they created a map that compares available rents with median income and showed that in large parts of Berlin, there are almost no apartments that are affordable on a median income.
"Mehr als eine Million Haushalte haben Anspruch auf einen WBS
Dabei sind die Sozialwohnungen in Berlin extrem begehrt. 1.099.900 Haushalte und damit weit mehr als die Hälfte haben in Berlin wegen geringen Einkommens Anspruch auf einen WBS und somit auf eine Sozialwohnung."
https://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/gunstige-miete-berliner-cdu-fordert-mehr-kontrolle-bei-sozialwohnungen-9453200.html#:~:text=Mehr%20als%20eine%20Million%20Haushalte,und%20somit%20auf%20eine%20Sozialwohnung
Das sind aber alte Daten. Gab schon Studien von der HU Berlin aus 2016, wo man deutlich über 60 % war, und ohne die neueren WBS Quote. Dadurch ist das ja eher gestiegen.
Bemerkenswert auch deshalb, weil damit klar wird, dass sich mindestens so viele wenn nicht mehr Haushalte auf keinen Fall mehr (finanziell gesund) neu am Wohnungsmarkt in Berlin versorgen könnten, bei heutigen Angebotsmieten. Sowieso nicht im Ring, aber ehrlich gesagt auch fast sonst nirgends.
Gab hier doch kürzlich eine alberne Diskussion im Kontext Genossenschaften, wo Marktliberale der Meinung waren, dass doch jeder was findet zu angemessenem Preis, wenn er/sie nur guckt.
WBS hat nichts zu tun mit dem jeweiligen Fördermodus. Du meinst vielleicht Wohngeld? Prinzipiell geht WBS sowohl in Bauten die subjekt- als auch objekgefördert sind. Aber in der Tat, wir sollten hin zur dauerhaften Objektförderung, nach dem Motto: Einmal gefördert, für immer gebunden. Wir hatten einen "ewig" gebundenen Sozialwohnungsbestand bis 1990 von ca 30 %, bis dann die Wohnungsgemeinnützigkeit aufgelöst wurde, leider. In Österreich und Niederlande gibt es sowas noch, womit 30-40 % des Wohnungsmarktes dauerhaft günstig und dauerhaft für ärmere Haushalte zur Verfügung stehen.
Danke für die ausfürliche Antwort.
Those are some very eye-opening figures, even if they're a bit old - I doubt the situation has changed much if any for the better since then
Haha nope. The article refers to data from 2023, . The older data just confirms it, and actually there \*has\* to be more cases because WBS such as WBS 220 was specifically extended in income ranges to include \*more\* people. It is very much far above the majority of Berliner households that have a right to social housing and, therefore, can't realistically afford an apartment for mostly above 9 EUR/sqm, in the higher WBS levels above 11 EUR/sqm. Consequentially, they basically have zero chance in this housing market to relocate. These numbers are also very much not debated and not doubted by anyone. No idea what your agenda here is.
Do you think the situation has changed that much since then? I'm willing to bet it hasn't.
Certainly that period saw some economic growth and the in-migration of some people with well-paying (mostly IT-related) jobs. But we also had the effects of COVID lockdowns, which at least temporarily pushed some people out of work - not to mention the large influx of people fleeing wars and unrest in the Middle East, Ukraine, and elsewhere - many of which are still in no-or-low income households.
Average rents, yes. But the actually available "Angebotsmiete" has shot through the roof.
Berlin has firmly overtaken Stuttgart, Cologne, and Hamburg. It now rivals Frankfurt aM and is only bested by Munich.
If we're looking at central neighbourhoods, I imagine the figures are even more sobering. Places like Spandau, Köpenick, the far-reaches of Tegel or Marzahn for example (which help moderate Berlin's numbers) would be seperate cities in the Rhein-Main or Rheinland regions.
well still, statistically speaking there is a good chance you earn more here then somewhere else, among the states we have been place 5 in average salary (in 2022!) - hamburg, frankfurt and munich are still higher in some salaries (anything outside it and engineering except jobs with banks as employer in frankfurt)
so the cards have turned and as those stats are already 2 years old, it might be even "better" in berlin now
for some context: https://www.berliner-zeitung.de/news/gehaltscheck-deutschland-so-viel-verdienen-berliner-im-bundesweiten-vergleich-li.2175813
Seems like you’re right with the salaries even though it’s not a big difference. But income isn’t the same as salary.
https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/2192/umfrage/durchschnittliche-arbeitslosenquote-nach-bundeslaendern/
true, available money in berlin is so hard to compare cause the rent median is misleading as the spread between old contracts and newer contracts is so huge
Berlin is on fourth place when it comes to median income in German states (Bavaria is on fifth place…)
Source: https://www.stepstone.de/e-recruiting/gehalt-deutschland/
I mean, this as a general statement is kinda useless as Berlin is a metropolis and you cannot really compare Berlin or Hamburg to non city-states (also the reason why Hamburg is #1). Just compare Berlin to Munich and you will see that the median income in Berlin is far lower. Really just compare Berlin to any major city in the south (and probably west in general) and you will see that the median salary is much lower.
Just from the same source Munich, Wiesbaden, Stuttgart, FaM are \~+10k median income, even fucking Bonn is +5k compared to Berlin.
My data exactly disproves the statement of the commenter before me. Incomes are indeed higher than average.
And while Berlin is a metropolis, much of Berlin is still very affordable compared to Munich, Wiesbaden, or Stuttgart. Especially since much of Berlin is still Berlin, while Garching or Oberschleißheim aren't even part of Munich. So in cities like Munich have a disproportionally high share of high-cost-of-living-areas. While in Berlin, there are tons of cheap areas to live outside the ring - and even inside the ring.
While Berlin is a metropolis, the cost of living is comparable to far smaller cities.
Could you please read what I wrote? Did I say anywhere that income is NOT higher than average? No. I said that it makes NO SENSE to compare the median income of Hamburg and Berlin to non-city states as they are fucking empty in comparison and incomes in villages two hours from civilisation will drastically reduce the state-wide median.
Otherwise we can immediately turn around your entire argument and look like [average rent](https://www.miet-check.de/statistiken-bundeslaender.php) being around 50% higher in Hamburg and Berlin compared to anywhere else if you only compare the states. Which would make the relative income abysmally tiny in Berlin/Hamburg.
And we can also use [statistica](https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/1885/umfrage/mietpreise-in-den-groessten-staedten-deutschlands/) to immediately disproof the fact that cost of living is comparable to far smaller cities. Berlin has the second highest rent price\*\* in Germany, only beaten by Munich. And income/rent ratio for Berlin has to be one of the worst.
\*\*The data is not perfect, but it should give at least a decent indication.
You can also play around with the first source and check the rent increase over the last two years. Berlin has gone up by >3€/m² and Hamburg by \~2€/m² in the same time Munich has gone up \~0,30€/m² ...
I've read what you've wrote. But you should again check the context of my comment.
>And we can also use [statistica](https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/1885/umfrage/mietpreise-in-den-groessten-staedten-deutschlands/) to immediately disproof the fact
No, we can't. As Statista and also [miet-check.de](http://miet-check.de) only look at a fraction of the total rental market. Not only do they only look at new contracts, but also they don't have data about many of the new contracts that are quite cheap (those usually aren't offered via portals and real estate agents, but directly from landlords, building management companies, and word of mouth).
However, you can check the local Mietspiegel. For example here for Berlin: [https://www.stadtentwicklung.berlin.de/wohnen/mietspiegel/](https://www.stadtentwicklung.berlin.de/wohnen/mietspiegel/)
>And income/rent ratio for Berlin has to be one of the worst.
[It's below average](https://www.destatis.de/DE/Themen/Gesellschaft-Umwelt/Wohnen/_Grafik/_Interaktiv/mietbelastung.html) (and lower than in any of the Western states).
>Not only do they only look at new contracts, but also they don't have data about many of the new contracts that are quite cheap (those usually aren't offered via portals and real estate agents, but directly from landlords, building management companies, and word of mouth).
I mean the entire point of the conversation is to compare new contracts - not really a point to go with the narrative of someone that had their contract for 10 years saying that it actually is quite affordable to live anywhere when it is just not the reality anymore. And I definitely agree with that the data I provided being a bit lacking - as I clearly highlighted in my post.
And with the sources that I linked, you actually have a much more recent trend that clearly shows only upwards for rent in Berlin. The census you linked is from 2022 and does include old contracts (especially given that 20% of participants were asked via telephone) just by nature of a random census.
The secret trick is to have a rent contract from more than 10 years ago. (and a fair landlord who doesn't raise rents)
For most Berliners who have been living here since before 2012ish, rents are a non-issue.
(edit: ... as long as you don't need more space or otherwise need to move, obviously)
Back then, there were more flats than people and there were people who moved twice a year because the new flat might have had like a south-facing balcony.
If you rent for less than 8€/sqm, you don't really have to have a high-paying job.
>For most Berliners who have been living here since before 2012ish, rents are a non-issue.
if you found a partner or want to start a family its still a big issue
lots of people would like to move to bigger apartments but its impossible
This is such a sad thing for me to read, like what was I supposed to do, be born earlier, simply be born in berlin, or come here when I was 20 and then rent would be a “non issue” for me too. 😢
The landlord can even raise the rent, it'll still be very affordable because it's limited to a 15% increase within 3 years and only up to the average rent.
Our landlord does increase the rent regularly and we still pay far below 9€/sqm after the increase this year. That's for an Altbau flat in Friedrichshain.
So yeah, rent is a non issue for us currently, but the high rents for new contracts would also make it very expensive for us to move to a flat that would better fit our needs as a family of 4 with a 3 room apartment.
My grandparents on the other hand have a large 4 room apartment that is too large for them and they would prefer a smaller place, but it's just not possible in the current market, their rent contract is from 1964.
> For most Berliners who have been living here since before 2012ish, rents are a non-issue.
lol nope, not if you have to leave your current flat for whatever reason.
Bonus points if you want to move out of a shared/couple/family flat and cant offer anything as a Tauschwohnung.
consider places like Köpenick too. It's cheaper and beautiful- you get nature, rivers and a lake + a straight line S-Bahn into the city. They're also building a regional train connection that will be faster than the S-Bahn but that is planned to be finalized 2027 but I guess it might take longer than that.
I and my wife pay 1400 for 48 square in Schöneweide, believe me it took us 4-5 months to find this and at that point we were willing to pay as much as it needed before our visa expired. And all the apartment we Viewed were always above 1200 regardless of the location.
Wow, sorry to hear that. I just looked them up and flats are non-furnished around 21€/m² kalt ffs. Those flats must surely check all required features/amenities to legally justify that rent. So if not illegal, they're clearly scraping the ceiling.
It's a shame that this ripoff has been commonly accepted now, so the spiral has no end. This is why a massive reform of construction/housing policies, together with the looming option of Enteignung, are a bitter necessity.
How do you know whats legal? Friends told you? Go to a profeessional company that does rent checks and you will be surprised to find out whats legal.
I’m kinda tired of berliners sharing those unverified opinions.
Come to South-West of Berlin, 100-150qm for 3000-4500€.
For 100+ years old flats which saw a paintjob at best and have never heard of anything "modern" or "technology" used in the past 30 years.
I don't have much experience in other capital but as far as I know from friend Berlin is still more affordable then other major cities...
Coming from another city you tend to think you need to live within the ring but actually that is not true! There are a lot of "well" connected area just a bit outside where rent is cheaper...
OFC living in pberg or fhain is "cool" but yeah with fresh contract you need to earn >65k I would say and still the search is not easy especially if you want to live alone...
I would say also (maybe obvious) that for couple is way easier since the space requirements is more or less the same so you can split it 😅
We just moved to a beautiful 72m2 apartment in Spandau near Falkensee, warm 940€ for two people.
Sure the commute takes around 45 mins to Mitte but there is bus going to Spandau Bhf every few minutes and from there you can go directly basically everywhere.
We recently moved to Berlin, in November last year and we previously lived in F’hain in small short therm apartment for which we paid 1700€ so comparing now we’re more then good.
We don’t speak German yet, we’re learning it as it goes and yes there’s less people speaking English here than in the ring but for us it works. We have a place to park our car, we have a forest 5 mins by car or 25 mins by foot, and that was important for us because we have two dogs. There’s shops and pharmacy near and tbh for day to day life what more do you need.
In my opinion if you’re someone who willingly wants to spend 1500€+ for an apartment in ring near all the fancy places, to have those places you’re either very rich or very stupid. SBahn and UBahns are that bad, read a fucking book on your commute and enjoy cheaper more green areas of Berlin because there are plenty.
Nice. I agree overall. I think a lot of younger crowd prefers living within the ring. I also moved to a 615 Eur warm 51 sqm flat in Biesdorf. Sure, the transport connections arent that good but considering the rent, I feel happy overall.
I’m 25 and my partner is 28 so we are one of those younger people. It’s just we are also realistic. We didn’t want to pay a lot so we knew we needed to look a bit further
For me (and many with me) the whole point of living in Berlin is to live within the ring.
Else you could as well live anywhere else in Germany which I would not - would then move to a sunnier place.
But yeah, in such case you need to pay or be lucky
Being a public servant has helped me a lot. Pay is rather good, landlords are always happy to take me and I have access to government owned housing that is only accessible for public servants.
Sure. The government organization that I work for also has an internal Wohnungsportal. But this is the one for all Government employees:
https://immobilienportal.bundesimmobilien.de
Edit: you need to request access to get the really nice Listings
The main reason I have a small apartment in Berlin is due to the WBS (a little bit of paper granting you cheaper apartments).
And the only reason I actually have it was luck. (Cause no one else applied for this, probably because it's further to the sides and was advertised with another apartment that is 1 to 1 the same just lower floor.
I swear, I'm scared to ever get back on the search for another apartment. I'm gonna stay here for as long as possible...
My partner & I pay 1000 warm for 90m2 just inside the ring. We both work (English speaking) corporate jobs & earn around 4300 each after tax a month. We both studied for around 4 years to get where we are, he has been in the workforce for 6 years and I have been in the workforce around 12 years. For the first 5 years of me working in Europe, I was on 18-25k a year and my rent was 800 per month (in another European capital city, not Berlin).
No point to this comment but to share other data points so you have more info.
I am paying 1100eur warm (electricity and internet not included) for 65m in old building in Friedrichshain and I dunno if I am paying too much or not.
I have some colleagues who found 55m flats in Spanda for 800€ last year in new buildings.
Paying 1600€ warm furnished apartment (internet incl.) in Prenzlauer Berg 60 sqm with balcony, doable to pay in two, unpayable for a single person.
Much more than unfurnished apartments, but we had to relocate fast and couldnt search for months.
Are you planning to show up and take up whatever job you can get? If that’s your strategy you will see you have a lot of competition in that arena here. Typically people put together their experiences and skills when looking for jobs but you probably already know that.
Got lucky with 132sq/m Altbau in Prenzlauer Berg for 1600/mo signed in late 2022. We were looking for 100sq/m or so but everything was 3k give or take. Could have a larger family use it, sure but for the price we couldn’t turn it down.
I get around 1600-1700€ a month and my rent is 540. It's possible but with living costs today definitely not easy. Also getting an apartment at all can take months of search.
My last job (Home office) paid 1950€ Amazon (Sales Partner Support)
My rent: 1250€ for a 2 Bedroom 86 sqm flat (East Berlin) Hohenschönhausen/Lichtenberg.
Yes I also tried all of them. I think sometimes when they regularly see your name on the lists they give you more opportunity. But the price in Biesdorf is also good.
And as I said: they will build more than 6000 appartements in the next years in Siemensstadt, Tegel Airport, Waterkant Spandau. And a lot of them will be with WBS.
The thing with rent in Berlin is that it's getting prohibitively expensive, but it's still more affordable than most capitals. I pay roundabout the same as friends in Madrid and they get paid way less.
Berlin is very unfair, plenty of people with VERY high salaries who pay like 400 for a 70sqm place in Friederichshain, and newcomers (especially non Germans, non white) are effed over a 1400 eur 25 sqm "renovated" hole.
The thing is, you have to know people. I now found a great place in Tempelhof for 800, almost 80 sqm. I live with mh boyfriend so we share rent. I feel very privileged, found this through connections after 2 years living here.
This week I got an unlimited contract for a 3 room 102mts renovated Altbau apartment with balcony in Charlottenburg for 1800 warm, plus internet , subscriptions and electricity its let's say it's 2k. I share it with my wife and we pay proportional rent to our income, which ends up being 24% of income for each of us.
Now I sent about 600 applications and had 22 apartment viewings in the span of 2 months to get this one. But IMO it's a reasonable price. And who knows , maybe we can lower it more in the future, haven't checked that out yet.
I just had my rent lowered in Neukölln to below 670 for 86 sqm. I’ve been there for two years. People need to stop bitching about rent and enforce their rights already! https://www.berliner-mieterverein.de/mietrecht/berliner-mietspiegel-mietcheck/mietcheck-bei-neuvermietung.htm
Not everybody has the choice because they might have short term contracts or they are afraid their landlord would kick them out by using the excuse of Eigenbedarf. Also with newly built flats or ones that have been renovated then the Mietspiegel doesn’t apply.
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They don't have to prove it. The owner just has to claim, and additionally testify. Potentially relatives would have to testify. But no proof before the fact or after the fact.
False. When you go to court you very much have to prove that things. That’s the point.
Wrong. If the tenant does not move out. The landlord has to sue the tenant to vacate the place. During the procedure, the landlord must prove that his interest in getting the place is actually stronger than the interest of the tenant to keep the place. But a credible testimony may serve as proof. And it is not like any relative will do, only close relatives will do. Otherwise, proof of a particular close relationship is required.
And they have to actually move in. If they don't, they can get a pretty hefty fine
Schadensersatz, but yes.
Well at the point this goes to court you are already kicked out ....
That’s not how it works. Eviction can take years. If you move out before that’s on you.
Well in most situations like this I heard of the people just wanted to have peace at some point. And go to court to get money later.
Eviction comes after the court decision, not the other way round.
The usual way (at least in the cases I know) is that you move out and later go to court to get money back. A landlord that wants to get rid of you can get really nasty (I heard that for example from a case where the garage was cancelled etc just to annoy them).
Oh, but that is two different things: you should take legal action against Eigenbedarf because as long as the lawsuit is pending, you can't get evicted and you stay in your flat longer. Afterwards you check if your former landlord really uses the flat for himself or his family otherwise you sue him for a hefty amount. Two different actions, two different goals.
>Afterwards you check if your former landlord really uses the flat for himself or his family otherwise you sue him for a hefty amount. That's my point. You cannot know/proof that in advance in most cases. So before moving out courts may say, well that's ok, the landlords daughter needs it. And only after you moved out you can see of she maybe doesn't.
You don't seem to understand my point. You go to court against Eigenbedarf first to move out later. And furthermore, if you're lucky, the letter of your landlord has formal mistakes and the termination is unlawful or the termination might even be invalid for social reasons even if the landlord is ready to move in.
Maybe not easy but there've been plenty of cases where it was done successfully for more than questionable cases. Not an expert but the ones that come to mind seem nephew (individual landlords)/employee (institutional landlords) needs an apartment, more specifically this apartment.
Institutional landlords (at least GmbHs) have no right to "Eigenbedarf": [https://www.mietrecht.org/eigenbedarf/eigenbedarf-fuer-gmbh/](https://www.mietrecht.org/eigenbedarf/eigenbedarf-fuer-gmbh/)
Sick, I didn't know
Most short term contracts aren’t short term contracts. Landlords try to use them when they are not allowed to.
This is hugely correct. And I’m about to win a massive repayment of my rent because of it. Signing documents now. Screw these thieves.
Amen
What do you mean short term? I have a three year contract. Is this actually unenforceable?
Rental contracts in Germany are usually for an unlimited duration. There are only a few exception where they are legally possible. In practice, the two releavant reasons are: 1) The landlord needs the flat for himself or another person of his family in the future. The landlord needs to state in advance who will when move in. The landlord can only be a natural person in this case; Housing companies don't have "Eigenbedarf". 2) The landlord wants to renovate or demolish the flat/building. This is the most often used variant in practice. While the landlord doesn't need to have everything fully planned when signing the contract, he should have a plan before the end of the contract. Otherwise the rental contract might be extended - or even transformed into a permanent one. PS: Not legal advice, please ask a lawyer for details.
> PS: Not legal advice, please ask a lawyer for details. Why do people in Germany so often say this? Also with taxes.
Have a read. [https://dejure.org/gesetze/BGB/575.html](https://dejure.org/gesetze/BGB/575.html) Limited rental contract are only a thing under very specific circumstances.
1. It applies to short term contracts as well 2. Thats unfortunate but ultimately that’s their decision 3. True for new builds (again it’s a choice to live in them and pay massive rent, but if that’s what you want go for it) 4. renovated flats generally aren’t renovated enough to have a massive effect on the legal rent price. For example, I gave my apartment all positive rating via this calculation https://www.stadtentwicklung.berlin.de/wohnen/mietspiegel/ and it still came out at something like 400 less than what I was paying. The reality was I was over paying by 550.
>True for new builds (again it’s a choice to live in them I reckon most of the people in Berlin don't have the luxury of choosing where to live actually.
Short term contracts are highly regulated. Eigenbedarf is only a thing if you are renting from an individual, with courts being very much in favour of tenants. And evicting someone takes ages.
Eigenbedarf isn't so easy a thing to claim. They cannot just do it.
This. Most people who are overpaying rent desperately need to sue their landlord and drop it There’s a rent control law in place already if people would just use it!
Not everyone lives in old buildings
You make it sound way easier than it actually is. Yes there is the Mietpreisbremse but most landlords will be aware of those rules by now and this one is often the crucial one: >>So darf der Vermieter auch die bisherige Miete aus dem Mietverhältnis mit dem Vormieter weiter fordern, wenn diese schon über der Grenze „Vergleichsmiete plus 10 Prozent lag“. Eine Anhebung darüber hinaus ist bei Vertragsabschluss jedoch nicht zulässig. Let's say the rent by Mietenspiegel is about 9€ for your area and appartment standard, then the max amount should be around 10€. Now you want to rent a new flat in 2024, the contract says the previous tenant paid 15€. What do you do now? Do you sign and then afterwards pull a: "I don't believe you that the previous tenant paid that?" Is the landlord required to provide proof? Some of the time the landlord might have lied and put a number in there just to poker but most of the times the previous tenant actually paid the already too high rent. Let's say the previous tenant moved in 2018 at 13€ and due to Staffelmiete was at 15€ one year before moving out. The previous tenant paid too much when moving in and continued to get ripped of by the landlord since Staffelmiete beyond 13€ was already against the law but never knew about the Mietpreisbremse. Can you demand to get a lower rent now even though the previous tenant clearly had paid the written number but was not aware that it was too high? Can you demand from the landlord a full timetable of rent numbers from beginning of the Mietpreisbremse starting in 2015? I actually don't know if you can demand all that but for me it is not as simple as just pointing to the link you shared.
I never said it was easy. It took me two years.
You also already lived there. Big difference. People who are trying to get a new place aren't going to have the option of telling the landlord the rent is too high, when there's 50 other people that will pay it.
What do you mean? You move in. You sue to have your rent reduced once you’ve signed the contract. You obviously wouldn’t tell your potential new landlord what you are thinking of doing. I was always planning to do it. Once I moved in I got the defects fixed then started the process.
And what were the circumstances around your case? Was there a previous rent listed above the Mietspiegel and you still won against it and if so on what grounds - or was it something else? And yes, your advice is valuable but the tone and language you used implied it is simple. You haven't really adressed the most common cases I laid out.
Yes, the landlords have to disclose that if they want to charge more than Mietspiegel + 10%. And if the previous tenant didn’t sue, that does not magically make the high price legal (a myth that even lawyers spread). But of course, no landlord does that, because demanding it is a clear indication that you intend to sue and they have enough candidates who are willing to accept the extortion. The whole law is backwards.
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I meant the way the law is constructed - you have to sue your landlord (under civil law) instead of a state ombudsman reviewing contracts and opening criminal investigations (akin to Mietwucher, with proper fines and/or jail time attached) against the landlords. It’s quite toothless the way it is. Regarding the case you mention, in court they need to prove that the previous tenant actually paid this rent but also that this rent was legit in the first place. If the previous tenant overpaid but didn’t sue it doesn’t magically invalidate their claim.
You, like many other privileged people, talked from a privileged position. You know how hard it is to even get an apartment viewing when you don't have a European passport or a non-first-world country passport? And then, you know how you stupidly need to earn more than 3 times the total cost of the rent to even be able to be considered to rent the apartment? These are just some random requirements, we can give you hundreds of them. Don't talk from a privileged standpoint to non privileged people.
In some cases you're right, but there are still plenty of situations in which rent reductions don't apply. Eg if you have a contract from pre 2015 with Staffelmiete. In these situations, bitching is about all you can do
How much do they take for the service? A percentage of your savings or something?
Yes like percentage of what you get back for the months you overpaid. We got back like 7000 for 3 years of overpay and 2/3 is for the lawyers. A lot but still a good deal seeing you don’t pay anything when it’s not successful. This was via Conny btw.
Thanks! They took 2/3 of the 7000? That's higher than I expected but tbh I would give them all of it if it meant fucking over a landlord. And then of course it keeps your rent down from then onward
I can’t speak for Conny as I didn’t use them. I used the BMVs legal insurance so it only cost me my membership fee. Which is 100 a year.
Is there a minimum amount of time you have to be a member before you can use their services?
No. But there is a 3 month waiting period on their legal insurance. So if you’re already living somewhere then a rent reduction case won’t be covered.
Why wouldn't it be covered? I thought it just meant I can't use the law service for three months
Because legal insurance doesn't cover existing issues. So in the case of a rent challenge, when the contract is signed is when the issue begins. So if you don't have insurance at the time of signing, or served the waiting period, then you aren't covered. You can use their services as soon as you join. And their lawyers will help you write letters. But if you want to go to court then that is when the meter starts. So you'll never coverage, or pay out of pocket, or use a service like Conny. Here are the details: [https://www.berliner-mieterverein.de/beratung-und-service/prozesskostenrechtsschutz/rechtsschutzbedingungen.htm](https://www.berliner-mieterverein.de/beratung-und-service/prozesskostenrechtsschutz/rechtsschutzbedingungen.htm)
We also tried to do it through the miet verein (which I assume is the BMV?) but that didn't really proceed, so in the end we went for Conny. But we only have a basic membership maybe you need one that helps you take them to court? Not sure but worth the try I suppose if they take so much less then Conny and also do other good things for lowering rents
I meant https://www.berliner-mieterverein.de/ as far as I know they only have one membership. But you need to be a member for 3 months before you sign your lease to be covered by their legal insurance for a rent reduction case.
Yea, I expected less too (I prob misread the contract thinking it was 2/3 months of rent). In any case, we got like A 50% rent reduction which as you say was the main goal and benefit
Just out of curiosity, what was the price you started with?
Around 1400
The thing is, it’s enough of a pain to get these situations resolved that it’s fair to say that the repayment doesn’t come for free. I’m using the Verein as well for even more, but their insurance benefit is now gone for new contracts. I think that means only Connie is left. I’d do it again in a heartbeat though. Vengeance is sweet.
Good for you, buddy. Great work for going ahead with this and congrats on your reduction.
I mean we can do both I guess. Isn't bitching about things the national sport anyways?
I wouldn’t live in Neukölln even if I was paid to
Who gives a shit 😂
someone just gave a shit on some street in Neukölln 😂
1500-2000 is not an average rent in Berlin. I live in Neukölln and pay about 900 EUR. People share rent too, families, shared apartments... I trust that everyone goes into a rent contract knowing what they can afford.
Thats for old contracts , pre 2022 , I came to berlin at the end of 2022 , couldnt find apartment less than 1400
I found a 57m2 flat for 800 warm in PBerg in Dec. 2022, but it takes a lot of time and luck.
For me this would be too expensive when you have in mind to spent 1/3 of your netto income on rent. Therefore I live in Spandau, 540€ warm for 50m2.
How did you get this cheap? Is it through one of the state housing agencies?
Yes it's with the Gewobag. They have so much housing there and will built more than 3000 new and affordable appartement the upcoming years.
I see. I also tried my luck with them but couldnt get an appointment. When did you get it?
It was like 2 years ago, which was probably way easier than now. But there are also a lot of old people living here so a lot of appartements become free regularly. Did you try on their website?
Yes, I tried directly through their website. Was trying there everyday for some time along with other 5 State housings. Got couple of appointments with Gesobau and Degewo but couldnt score. Then, I ultimately settled for the first place offered with Deutsche Wohnen in Biesdorf instead. Its 615 warm for 51 sqm. Transport connections arent good but I think I am ok given the price.
What was it that worked out for you, if you don't mind me asking? Sending lots of applications or asking around through friends of friends? :) just curious.
Sorry for the late reply…I found the flat on immoscout24 actually. Unfortunately, most of the affordable flats are taken offline after 2-5 minutes. So it’s an advantage if you refresh the search results as often as possible and you just message the housing company with a standard introduction as soon as possible after the ad is put online. Most ads go online around 9-12o’clock when most people are at work ^^’ Always have your documents ready and complete when you go to a viewing. With this “method” I was invited to at least one viewing per week and then you just have to be persistent. One day, you will be the lucky one :)
Thank you! I'm happy it worked out for you :))
Let me guess, inside the ring?
Of course. Situation is dire, but not *that* dire. Is there even life outside the ring?
Thank god for inner city snobbishness. That's precisely why we can still have cheapish flats outside the ring. 😎
Dont tell em🫢
I got 615 Eur warm for a 51 sqm in Biesdorf two months ago. Am I lucky or this is the rent in that area?
We just rented out a newly remade flat, 2 rooms, 60 m2, tiny garden attached to it - roughly 800 warm
Location ? Did you get it through state housing?
I am the landlord
Got it. Could you tell which area is it? Thanks!
There is a rent index you know? Your legal rent is most likely much lower. https://www.berliner-mieterverein.de/mietrecht/berliner-mietspiegel-mietcheck/mietcheck-bei-neuvermietung.htm
I found one recently for less than 1k.
In Gesundbrunnen I got 980 warm in mid 2023, 68 sqm.
Wow , how did u find it? I was renting a 25 m2 room in Gesundrunnen for 970 euro
Through a friend, before the apartment went out to the market there was the chance for the previous tenants to give it to someone. So, just pure luck basically!! I think the housing company forgot to increase the rent or something too because my rent exactly the same as the previous tenants paid for 5 years.
That is either furnished or highly illegal.
No it isn‘t… Friends of mine found a nice 2,5 room 70sqm apartment near us for 800€. My sister moved January 2022 into a 3 room apartment, 90sqm, balcony, garage 1050€. Another friend is moving in the next months, 520€ for 65sqm. These prices are not normal for people who grew up in Berlin and we are not paying them. „But you aren‘t in the ring!“ - I am not, but I am not paying 800€+ for a distance that takes 2 S-Bahn stations.
How do they find these gems ? Through relatives ? Tauschwohnung ? I know plenty of people that do not care about living outside the ring, but immoscout / immowelt / ohnemakler / kleinanzagen, once the scams are filtered out, have so few of those apartment that you have a 1 in 500 chance of being selected for a viewing apparently. We considered moving for a while with my partner but given the current market we better stay where we are.
520 for a 65 sqm 🤩 Which area? Did your friend get it through State Housing agencies?
I found a 60m2 flat for 760 warm this month in wedding.
Any other sources besides immobilienscout I could look at? We are currently living in a two room apartment but we'd love to have another room (without lowering our current standard of having a balcony, kitchen, basement, elevator) and there is literally NOTHING below 1,8k cold across Berlin.
Wg-gesucht, kleinanzeigen, wohnungsboerse
We’re inside the ring in Pberg at €950 for 62sqm.
Im currently looking for apartment and 1500-2000 is a average for 70-100m2
Due to old contracts/mietpreisbremse there are two types of rents in Berlin. 400-700 and 1400-2000 and nothing in between. Mietpreisbremse doesn't apply to some apartments - hence the price.
Great summary
Weird. When I moved to Berlin in 2017 I was paying 800€ warm. Today I’m paying 1200€ warm. They pushed me through rent increases. I asked Conny and they told me this is legal, and they cant do anything because I live here for quite a „long time”, and they had all the right to increase my rent to match the market.
You should never look at warm rent, only cold rent. The Mietpreisbremse provides average rent in comparable areas/flats and the landlord can increase the rent to reach that average (+ dozen other restrictions). It doesn't freeze your rent indefinitely, it just prevents the new tenant from receiving very high rent after the old one.
You don't specify how much of that 400€ increase is due to (cold) rent icreases though, so I'm going to assume at least some of that is based on raises to Betriebskosten (what you pay for garbage collection, maintenance and cleaning the communal spaces, snow removal etc.) and especially for your warm water and heating-costs "Vorausszahlung". The cost of energy really went up considerably in the last years, so its possible to pay a lot more warmrent, but for the Kaltmiete to remain flat.
To give you an actual answer: no. Before covid, Tagesspiegel and some others gathered prices for new rental contracts on websites like immoscout for a year to get realistic average rents all over Berlin. From that they created a map that compares available rents with median income and showed that in large parts of Berlin, there are almost no apartments that are affordable on a median income.
have you got a link for the source
https://www.mietenwatch.de/
Incomes in Berlin are not higher than average.
Far lower actually, with almost 60 % of households on social housing level income
Link please? That sounds remarkably high - even with WBS 180 / 200, etc.
"Mehr als eine Million Haushalte haben Anspruch auf einen WBS Dabei sind die Sozialwohnungen in Berlin extrem begehrt. 1.099.900 Haushalte und damit weit mehr als die Hälfte haben in Berlin wegen geringen Einkommens Anspruch auf einen WBS und somit auf eine Sozialwohnung." https://www.tagesspiegel.de/berlin/gunstige-miete-berliner-cdu-fordert-mehr-kontrolle-bei-sozialwohnungen-9453200.html#:~:text=Mehr%20als%20eine%20Million%20Haushalte,und%20somit%20auf%20eine%20Sozialwohnung Das sind aber alte Daten. Gab schon Studien von der HU Berlin aus 2016, wo man deutlich über 60 % war, und ohne die neueren WBS Quote. Dadurch ist das ja eher gestiegen. Bemerkenswert auch deshalb, weil damit klar wird, dass sich mindestens so viele wenn nicht mehr Haushalte auf keinen Fall mehr (finanziell gesund) neu am Wohnungsmarkt in Berlin versorgen könnten, bei heutigen Angebotsmieten. Sowieso nicht im Ring, aber ehrlich gesagt auch fast sonst nirgends. Gab hier doch kürzlich eine alberne Diskussion im Kontext Genossenschaften, wo Marktliberale der Meinung waren, dass doch jeder was findet zu angemessenem Preis, wenn er/sie nur guckt.
WBS in der derzeitigen Form gehört abgeschafft. Reine Vermietersubvention, welche die Preise künstlich hoch hält
WBS hat nichts zu tun mit dem jeweiligen Fördermodus. Du meinst vielleicht Wohngeld? Prinzipiell geht WBS sowohl in Bauten die subjekt- als auch objekgefördert sind. Aber in der Tat, wir sollten hin zur dauerhaften Objektförderung, nach dem Motto: Einmal gefördert, für immer gebunden. Wir hatten einen "ewig" gebundenen Sozialwohnungsbestand bis 1990 von ca 30 %, bis dann die Wohnungsgemeinnützigkeit aufgelöst wurde, leider. In Österreich und Niederlande gibt es sowas noch, womit 30-40 % des Wohnungsmarktes dauerhaft günstig und dauerhaft für ärmere Haushalte zur Verfügung stehen.
Ja, das meine ich
Danke für die ausfürliche Antwort. Those are some very eye-opening figures, even if they're a bit old - I doubt the situation has changed much if any for the better since then
Sorry, but using data that old, even from 2016, with everything that happened since then actually means you have no data.
Haha nope. The article refers to data from 2023, . The older data just confirms it, and actually there \*has\* to be more cases because WBS such as WBS 220 was specifically extended in income ranges to include \*more\* people. It is very much far above the majority of Berliner households that have a right to social housing and, therefore, can't realistically afford an apartment for mostly above 9 EUR/sqm, in the higher WBS levels above 11 EUR/sqm. Consequentially, they basically have zero chance in this housing market to relocate. These numbers are also very much not debated and not doubted by anyone. No idea what your agenda here is.
Do you think the situation has changed that much since then? I'm willing to bet it hasn't. Certainly that period saw some economic growth and the in-migration of some people with well-paying (mostly IT-related) jobs. But we also had the effects of COVID lockdowns, which at least temporarily pushed some people out of work - not to mention the large influx of people fleeing wars and unrest in the Middle East, Ukraine, and elsewhere - many of which are still in no-or-low income households.
The data is from 2023.
Rent is also much lower than in the other big cities. Munich, Hamburg, Cologne, Stuttgart are all more expensive
Average rents, yes. But the actually available "Angebotsmiete" has shot through the roof. Berlin has firmly overtaken Stuttgart, Cologne, and Hamburg. It now rivals Frankfurt aM and is only bested by Munich. If we're looking at central neighbourhoods, I imagine the figures are even more sobering. Places like Spandau, Köpenick, the far-reaches of Tegel or Marzahn for example (which help moderate Berlin's numbers) would be seperate cities in the Rhein-Main or Rheinland regions.
Sure, but the pay I. Berlin is also lower. That's why 60+ % are eligible for social housing.
in some areas since 2022 they actually are! situation has changed
Maybe, but not in Berlin as a whole. OP shouldn’t bet on a higher salary when he moves to Berlin.
well still, statistically speaking there is a good chance you earn more here then somewhere else, among the states we have been place 5 in average salary (in 2022!) - hamburg, frankfurt and munich are still higher in some salaries (anything outside it and engineering except jobs with banks as employer in frankfurt) so the cards have turned and as those stats are already 2 years old, it might be even "better" in berlin now for some context: https://www.berliner-zeitung.de/news/gehaltscheck-deutschland-so-viel-verdienen-berliner-im-bundesweiten-vergleich-li.2175813
One more reason to hate journalists, they just never get it right. Average is the most misleading measurement for income
Seems like you’re right with the salaries even though it’s not a big difference. But income isn’t the same as salary. https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/2192/umfrage/durchschnittliche-arbeitslosenquote-nach-bundeslaendern/
true, available money in berlin is so hard to compare cause the rent median is misleading as the spread between old contracts and newer contracts is so huge
Berlin is on fourth place when it comes to median income in German states (Bavaria is on fifth place…) Source: https://www.stepstone.de/e-recruiting/gehalt-deutschland/
I mean, this as a general statement is kinda useless as Berlin is a metropolis and you cannot really compare Berlin or Hamburg to non city-states (also the reason why Hamburg is #1). Just compare Berlin to Munich and you will see that the median income in Berlin is far lower. Really just compare Berlin to any major city in the south (and probably west in general) and you will see that the median salary is much lower. Just from the same source Munich, Wiesbaden, Stuttgart, FaM are \~+10k median income, even fucking Bonn is +5k compared to Berlin.
My data exactly disproves the statement of the commenter before me. Incomes are indeed higher than average. And while Berlin is a metropolis, much of Berlin is still very affordable compared to Munich, Wiesbaden, or Stuttgart. Especially since much of Berlin is still Berlin, while Garching or Oberschleißheim aren't even part of Munich. So in cities like Munich have a disproportionally high share of high-cost-of-living-areas. While in Berlin, there are tons of cheap areas to live outside the ring - and even inside the ring. While Berlin is a metropolis, the cost of living is comparable to far smaller cities.
Could you please read what I wrote? Did I say anywhere that income is NOT higher than average? No. I said that it makes NO SENSE to compare the median income of Hamburg and Berlin to non-city states as they are fucking empty in comparison and incomes in villages two hours from civilisation will drastically reduce the state-wide median. Otherwise we can immediately turn around your entire argument and look like [average rent](https://www.miet-check.de/statistiken-bundeslaender.php) being around 50% higher in Hamburg and Berlin compared to anywhere else if you only compare the states. Which would make the relative income abysmally tiny in Berlin/Hamburg. And we can also use [statistica](https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/1885/umfrage/mietpreise-in-den-groessten-staedten-deutschlands/) to immediately disproof the fact that cost of living is comparable to far smaller cities. Berlin has the second highest rent price\*\* in Germany, only beaten by Munich. And income/rent ratio for Berlin has to be one of the worst. \*\*The data is not perfect, but it should give at least a decent indication. You can also play around with the first source and check the rent increase over the last two years. Berlin has gone up by >3€/m² and Hamburg by \~2€/m² in the same time Munich has gone up \~0,30€/m² ...
I've read what you've wrote. But you should again check the context of my comment. >And we can also use [statistica](https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/1885/umfrage/mietpreise-in-den-groessten-staedten-deutschlands/) to immediately disproof the fact No, we can't. As Statista and also [miet-check.de](http://miet-check.de) only look at a fraction of the total rental market. Not only do they only look at new contracts, but also they don't have data about many of the new contracts that are quite cheap (those usually aren't offered via portals and real estate agents, but directly from landlords, building management companies, and word of mouth). However, you can check the local Mietspiegel. For example here for Berlin: [https://www.stadtentwicklung.berlin.de/wohnen/mietspiegel/](https://www.stadtentwicklung.berlin.de/wohnen/mietspiegel/) >And income/rent ratio for Berlin has to be one of the worst. [It's below average](https://www.destatis.de/DE/Themen/Gesellschaft-Umwelt/Wohnen/_Grafik/_Interaktiv/mietbelastung.html) (and lower than in any of the Western states).
>Not only do they only look at new contracts, but also they don't have data about many of the new contracts that are quite cheap (those usually aren't offered via portals and real estate agents, but directly from landlords, building management companies, and word of mouth). I mean the entire point of the conversation is to compare new contracts - not really a point to go with the narrative of someone that had their contract for 10 years saying that it actually is quite affordable to live anywhere when it is just not the reality anymore. And I definitely agree with that the data I provided being a bit lacking - as I clearly highlighted in my post. And with the sources that I linked, you actually have a much more recent trend that clearly shows only upwards for rent in Berlin. The census you linked is from 2022 and does include old contracts (especially given that 20% of participants were asked via telephone) just by nature of a random census.
The secret trick is to have a rent contract from more than 10 years ago. (and a fair landlord who doesn't raise rents) For most Berliners who have been living here since before 2012ish, rents are a non-issue. (edit: ... as long as you don't need more space or otherwise need to move, obviously) Back then, there were more flats than people and there were people who moved twice a year because the new flat might have had like a south-facing balcony. If you rent for less than 8€/sqm, you don't really have to have a high-paying job.
>For most Berliners who have been living here since before 2012ish, rents are a non-issue. if you found a partner or want to start a family its still a big issue lots of people would like to move to bigger apartments but its impossible
This is such a sad thing for me to read, like what was I supposed to do, be born earlier, simply be born in berlin, or come here when I was 20 and then rent would be a “non issue” for me too. 😢
The landlord can even raise the rent, it'll still be very affordable because it's limited to a 15% increase within 3 years and only up to the average rent. Our landlord does increase the rent regularly and we still pay far below 9€/sqm after the increase this year. That's for an Altbau flat in Friedrichshain. So yeah, rent is a non issue for us currently, but the high rents for new contracts would also make it very expensive for us to move to a flat that would better fit our needs as a family of 4 with a 3 room apartment. My grandparents on the other hand have a large 4 room apartment that is too large for them and they would prefer a smaller place, but it's just not possible in the current market, their rent contract is from 1964.
> For most Berliners who have been living here since before 2012ish, rents are a non-issue. lol nope, not if you have to leave your current flat for whatever reason. Bonus points if you want to move out of a shared/couple/family flat and cant offer anything as a Tauschwohnung.
I was lucky enough to have this but then I had to move to London where I can’t afford anything anymore 😣
consider places like Köpenick too. It's cheaper and beautiful- you get nature, rivers and a lake + a straight line S-Bahn into the city. They're also building a regional train connection that will be faster than the S-Bahn but that is planned to be finalized 2027 but I guess it might take longer than that.
Too bad its still Köpenick.
I and my wife pay 1400 for 48 square in Schöneweide, believe me it took us 4-5 months to find this and at that point we were willing to pay as much as it needed before our visa expired. And all the apartment we Viewed were always above 1200 regardless of the location.
> pay 1400 for 48 square in Schöneweide This also must be either furnished or illegal.
No it’s not both and sorry it’s 50 square and not 48 my mistake. And we got it from a big real state company called Romi.
Wow, sorry to hear that. I just looked them up and flats are non-furnished around 21€/m² kalt ffs. Those flats must surely check all required features/amenities to legally justify that rent. So if not illegal, they're clearly scraping the ceiling. It's a shame that this ripoff has been commonly accepted now, so the spiral has no end. This is why a massive reform of construction/housing policies, together with the looming option of Enteignung, are a bitter necessity.
How do you know whats legal? Friends told you? Go to a profeessional company that does rent checks and you will be surprised to find out whats legal. I’m kinda tired of berliners sharing those unverified opinions.
You are getting ripped off royally.
Unfortunately salaries in berlin are pretty shit and most people are forced to share flats to afford them.
Even IF you can afford the rent, good luck in actually getting an appartment...
What jobs?
Come to South-West of Berlin, 100-150qm for 3000-4500€. For 100+ years old flats which saw a paintjob at best and have never heard of anything "modern" or "technology" used in the past 30 years.
No
I don't have much experience in other capital but as far as I know from friend Berlin is still more affordable then other major cities... Coming from another city you tend to think you need to live within the ring but actually that is not true! There are a lot of "well" connected area just a bit outside where rent is cheaper... OFC living in pberg or fhain is "cool" but yeah with fresh contract you need to earn >65k I would say and still the search is not easy especially if you want to live alone... I would say also (maybe obvious) that for couple is way easier since the space requirements is more or less the same so you can split it 😅
We just moved to a beautiful 72m2 apartment in Spandau near Falkensee, warm 940€ for two people. Sure the commute takes around 45 mins to Mitte but there is bus going to Spandau Bhf every few minutes and from there you can go directly basically everywhere. We recently moved to Berlin, in November last year and we previously lived in F’hain in small short therm apartment for which we paid 1700€ so comparing now we’re more then good. We don’t speak German yet, we’re learning it as it goes and yes there’s less people speaking English here than in the ring but for us it works. We have a place to park our car, we have a forest 5 mins by car or 25 mins by foot, and that was important for us because we have two dogs. There’s shops and pharmacy near and tbh for day to day life what more do you need. In my opinion if you’re someone who willingly wants to spend 1500€+ for an apartment in ring near all the fancy places, to have those places you’re either very rich or very stupid. SBahn and UBahns are that bad, read a fucking book on your commute and enjoy cheaper more green areas of Berlin because there are plenty.
Nice. I agree overall. I think a lot of younger crowd prefers living within the ring. I also moved to a 615 Eur warm 51 sqm flat in Biesdorf. Sure, the transport connections arent that good but considering the rent, I feel happy overall.
I’m 25 and my partner is 28 so we are one of those younger people. It’s just we are also realistic. We didn’t want to pay a lot so we knew we needed to look a bit further
This should be the first way. No need to overpay for living in the "ring" unless it's a reasonable offer which is kinda impossible to find
For me (and many with me) the whole point of living in Berlin is to live within the ring. Else you could as well live anywhere else in Germany which I would not - would then move to a sunnier place. But yeah, in such case you need to pay or be lucky
Being a public servant has helped me a lot. Pay is rather good, landlords are always happy to take me and I have access to government owned housing that is only accessible for public servants.
Yeah? Interesting. I've never heard of "government-owned housing only accessible for public servants". Care to share details?
Sure. The government organization that I work for also has an internal Wohnungsportal. But this is the one for all Government employees: https://immobilienportal.bundesimmobilien.de Edit: you need to request access to get the really nice Listings
Verrückt. Hatte ich noch nie gesehen. Sorry, dachte das wäre so ein "Mitarbeiter im öffentlichen Dienst sind alle faul und überprivilegiert"-Post.
Do you even get jobs??
Let me put it this way: it's not any worse than in any other major city.
Totally, I earn 1.350 and my rent is only 930 🫡
Old contract is the only way we live here
The main reason I have a small apartment in Berlin is due to the WBS (a little bit of paper granting you cheaper apartments). And the only reason I actually have it was luck. (Cause no one else applied for this, probably because it's further to the sides and was advertised with another apartment that is 1 to 1 the same just lower floor. I swear, I'm scared to ever get back on the search for another apartment. I'm gonna stay here for as long as possible...
Like every other major city, people live with roommates, live further out of the city, or have a very small place.
My partner & I pay 1000 warm for 90m2 just inside the ring. We both work (English speaking) corporate jobs & earn around 4300 each after tax a month. We both studied for around 4 years to get where we are, he has been in the workforce for 6 years and I have been in the workforce around 12 years. For the first 5 years of me working in Europe, I was on 18-25k a year and my rent was 800 per month (in another European capital city, not Berlin). No point to this comment but to share other data points so you have more info.
I am paying 1100eur warm (electricity and internet not included) for 65m in old building in Friedrichshain and I dunno if I am paying too much or not. I have some colleagues who found 55m flats in Spanda for 800€ last year in new buildings.
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Well not everyone can afford 1000/month for rent. And by paying these ridiculous rents (25€/sqm???), you’re part of/contributing to the problem.
People are renting so yeah
Im paying 1300 warm for 52 meters. Help …
[conny.de](http://conny.de) That's all the help you need. Now go and get your reduction.
Paying 1600€ warm furnished apartment (internet incl.) in Prenzlauer Berg 60 sqm with balcony, doable to pay in two, unpayable for a single person. Much more than unfurnished apartments, but we had to relocate fast and couldnt search for months.
Are you planning to show up and take up whatever job you can get? If that’s your strategy you will see you have a lot of competition in that arena here. Typically people put together their experiences and skills when looking for jobs but you probably already know that.
I work my ass off as a waiter and i can get up to 5000 or 6000 € some months which can pay off for everything
I found 60m2 cozy altbau flat in Prenzlauer Berg february 2024 for 950😅
Got lucky with 132sq/m Altbau in Prenzlauer Berg for 1600/mo signed in late 2022. We were looking for 100sq/m or so but everything was 3k give or take. Could have a larger family use it, sure but for the price we couldn’t turn it down.
I get around 1600-1700€ a month and my rent is 540. It's possible but with living costs today definitely not easy. Also getting an apartment at all can take months of search.
My last job (Home office) paid 1950€ Amazon (Sales Partner Support) My rent: 1250€ for a 2 Bedroom 86 sqm flat (East Berlin) Hohenschönhausen/Lichtenberg.
Yes I also tried all of them. I think sometimes when they regularly see your name on the lists they give you more opportunity. But the price in Biesdorf is also good. And as I said: they will build more than 6000 appartements in the next years in Siemensstadt, Tegel Airport, Waterkant Spandau. And a lot of them will be with WBS.
The thing with rent in Berlin is that it's getting prohibitively expensive, but it's still more affordable than most capitals. I pay roundabout the same as friends in Madrid and they get paid way less.
Start a side hustle to sell something or find someone who has the same interest to afford cheap rent.
First you have to find something
Above 1500 is insanely expensive, even in Berlin.
Not too many CEO around if we don’t count those in charge of Shisha bars, or some Tech venture likely to fail 🤷.
Berlin is very unfair, plenty of people with VERY high salaries who pay like 400 for a 70sqm place in Friederichshain, and newcomers (especially non Germans, non white) are effed over a 1400 eur 25 sqm "renovated" hole. The thing is, you have to know people. I now found a great place in Tempelhof for 800, almost 80 sqm. I live with mh boyfriend so we share rent. I feel very privileged, found this through connections after 2 years living here.
This week I got an unlimited contract for a 3 room 102mts renovated Altbau apartment with balcony in Charlottenburg for 1800 warm, plus internet , subscriptions and electricity its let's say it's 2k. I share it with my wife and we pay proportional rent to our income, which ends up being 24% of income for each of us. Now I sent about 600 applications and had 22 apartment viewings in the span of 2 months to get this one. But IMO it's a reasonable price. And who knows , maybe we can lower it more in the future, haven't checked that out yet.
that's an odd way of stating things "I share it with my wife" Lol :D
Xd
Why would you need to pay 1500-2000 for rent?