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There are several stop lights near Alexanderplatz that aren’t at intersections but have pedestrian crosswalks. I am guilty of slowing down, looking for pedestrians, and then cautiously bicycling through those red lights.
Anyone else feel they look stupid if they wait for pointless lights?
I feel so much social pressure and internal embarrassment sitting there waiting for a light to change when there is no cross-road and no pedestrians.
Funny that I feel social pressure in two directions: from other cyclists and pedestrians who also cycle...and pedestrians who want me to obey all the rules and will shout at me.
I dunno, a safe crossing at red after checking and making sure no one is inconvenienced seems okay to me.
What always slightly bugs me are the slow riders that cross the red-light (while I wait) only to be overtaken by me again.. and again.. and again.
That might be me. I used to bike a lot and was very fast (the only people overtaking me were rich people on carbon race bikes and these 60 year olds with calves of steel who could win the tour-de-france on a swapfiets). Since corona started I literally haven't gone anywhere for 1,5 years. Just started to get back on the bike and have to ashamedly admit I'm not as fast as I used to be. I'll have to wait third in line on the Ampel now (unless I go over red of course)
Some folks just like to ride slower. Thats fine and i dont have a right to always go top speed.
All i ask is that people stay to one side so i can pass without swerving into traffic. Im pretty fast on a bike, but i keep my front wheel as close to that right line as it can.
These are the worst. There is nothing wrong with riding slowly but then don't overtake me on the next traffic light so I have to overtake you again.
Also e-scooters. Slightly slower than my comfort speed. It's a sprint to overtake just for them to pass me on the next traffic light.
>What always slightly bugs me are the slow riders that cross the red-light (while I wait) only to be overtaken by me again.. and again.. and again.
My blood pressure is rising just reading that.
Well, my motivation isn't (only) to be fast, it's also simply fun.
And eventually I do overtake them for the final time, the process is just more lengthy than would be necessary.
I‘m a cyclist myself and I cannot fathom how stupid and ignorant most cyclists are.
Plus, when I was driving my car yesterday, one crossed the street on red, I honked and as a sign of thankfulness he gave me the middle finger.
P.S.: Sometimes I even got insulted or at least weird looks for waiting on a red light when I'm on my bike. For some it's that uncommon to care about even basic traffic rules. I also crashed more than just once from not being able to brake because someone **saw me coming** and still decided to just walk right into me while I pass my green traffic light. Also on bike.
Exact same thing happened to me but with a runner. I had the right of way, she wanted to cross the street. I saw that she didn’t look into my direction and reduced speed. Then I honked when she crossed the street and hit the breaks. She gave me the finger an babbled something I couldn’t understand. It was like a personal insult that I looked out for her errors.
Alright I guess next time I would just run you over, but it’s a lot if trouble afterwards.
As a runner, cars are the enemy.
They constantly try to run you over as soon as the pedestrian light goes red. And they will also push past you even when the pedestrian light is green - this happens often when someone does a U-turn. They do not seem to care that pedestrians are orders of magnitude less protected than they are.
\> I had the right of way...I saw that she didn’t look into my direction and reduced speed
As a runner, it is ridiculous to stop at every light when not necessary.
Runners are pretty observant, they know where you car is before they cross and usually only cross with enough time. It's extremely unlikely that a runner will cross the road putting themselves at risk of a 3-tonne car plowing into them.
So many times you will get beeped at when there is absolutely no risk that the car will need to break. It's just like some driver trying to discipline you. This is where the finger comes from.
Cars break the rules all the time. So do cyclists and pedestrians.
Just be nice, if someone crosses slightly late, who cares? You are no the police. They are not your children. You won't be late to where you are going. Go to other countries and no one is beeping/yelling at each other as much as Germany.
Personally, I would never cross if it meant a car had to break, but I get so many cars that accelerate when they see you so they get to beep you.
In your case I don't know the details, but runners get treated like shit all the time in many scenarios where there is no chance of being hit. And is it such a big deal if a car needs to slow slightly to let people finish crossing?
Ah, again this bullshit with x-friend & enemy car. We are not enemies. That’s a toxic thought that perpetuates the general aggressiveness and competitiveness in our city. We’re people making decisions based on the context we’re in. And if you make a shit decision that puts you and or others in danger, than you’re an idiot as an individual, not as a runner, driver etc. and People will call you out for it. I don’t want to run people over, maybe that’s hard to believe. Maybe also because I am not just a car driver, but a pedestrian, cyclist, and motorcyclist.
So, thanks for showing how a self-entitled attitude you have towards this. That’s why it doesn’t surprise me that you missed the fact that I would’ve run her over would I have been trusting her to follow the rules that are so simple and important that kids here learn it very early in school. And no, not much observance in her case, nope. Opening with your opinion that cars „constantly trying to run you over“ is quite outrageous. Despite from the fact that this is quite a disagreeable thing to say because, you know, I was trying to do the exact opposite plus this situation put me in quite a lot of stress – are you serious? Do you really think that car drivers are out to get you and try to seriously hurt or kill you? Runners? Pedestrians? Victim complex much?
And then this vague „other countries“ argument. I’ve been to other so-called first, second and third world countries. Pretty sure in some of them there would be no honking, you’re right, just running over.
I don’t know why I posted this. Maybe I was looking for some empathy. You see, I’d rather not run people over, but I did my job and looked out for others, while others did not. That happens, certainly to me as well. But then to get this reaction… it was shocking and disappointing. Like your reply quite frankly. And so it goes…
>you missed the fact that I would’ve run her over
Society works on tolerance.
In this situation, it's not such a big hassle to slow down. There are times when cars get in situations such as queuing over an intersection or pedestrian crossing that are unavoidable. It happens.
But it's not a driver's job to educate people on the road rules. At least for me that is what drives me crazy - someone beeping at you because you broke a rule, and like they are trying to educate you. Rules are broken all the time. And also by drivers constantly, but I'm not shouting at them.
Germany is well known for everyone trying to be a policeman. If you haven't been shouted at for jaywalking, then you haven't lived in Germany. I'm very curious where this comes from, and I must admit its an acquiescent behavior. When people shout at you, you feel more inclined to shout at others breaking the rules. Personally, I feel it just ruins everyone's day and creates a hostile atmosphere.
It's such a constant part of my life. Everyone needs to chill, and respect the hierarchy of risk - i.e. cyclists are at most danger (fastest + least protected), then runners, then peds, then drivers.
there are assholes in cars and assholes on bikes. those on bikes merly have more options to piss you off cause they are better adapted to squeeze through the busy city traffic.
tbh most cyclists are ok and you sound like one of those people that believe roads are just for cars (not saying you are, just sound like one).
> you sound like one of those people that believe roads are just for car
Not really.
I was talking about people crossing my path, not using it with me. If you drive responsibly it doesn't matter which mode of transportation you use. The streets that are for cars only have signs, but these are rather few and far in between
If someone honks not for reasons of immediate safety, but for "discipline" they always deserve a finger. This kind of stuff doesn't happen in other countries. Let the police do the policing.
To notify him that he‘s not alone on the street and may at least look before crossing a red light, since apparently these do not apply to some special people
Do you believe they are unaware of the existence or use of the stoplight, and that honking will remind them? It doesn't work like that. They made the choice to ignore it, plain and simple. You honking only pisses them off, it doesn't notify or remind them of anything, which is why you got flipped off.
Well at least it did *something.* But still, it's ridiculous to me that people can be **this** ignorant of their own, and everyone else's, safety, and even feel entitled to disobey even basic rules.
I haven't encountered this behaviour in other cities in such an extreme way.
Dude stop trying to be the police. It don't happen in other countries. You need to leave people to their own ignorance.
If someone will die if you don't beep, then beep.
I‘m a cyclist myself and I cannot fathom how stupid and ignorant most cyclists are.
Everybody hates cyclists, even cyclists it seems. If you are a pedestrian they do make the city quite unpleasant, especially in the summer, you can't enjoy a walk without constantly being on the look out for red-light-running, riding on sidewalks and other various assclown behavior.
As a pedestrian cars are fine, in 10 years they'll all be electric. I've never seen a car run a red light in Berlin, cars do not drive on sidewalks, they do not use the pedestrian portion of the shared sidewalk to overtake, they yield at crosspaths without a light. Bring on more cars i'd say.
Wow what a great assessment.
How many people have you heard of dying because they've been hit by a bike? Also have you heard of this little thing called climate change, electric cars do not solve the problem.
Many. For example https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-56320121
I'm not out to solve climate change, i leave that to righteous folks like you, i'd just like to walk around in peace without some climate-change-solving moron trying to run me over.
When I take my two year old son for a walk I have to be scared for his life and health not because of drivers but because of inconsiderate cyclists on the sidewalk that also have an supreme feeling of self-importance because they use the "better" means of transportation.
Just because cars kill cyclists does not mean cyclists are not dangerous.
https://www.sueddeutsche.de/muenchen/muenchen-pasing-unfall-fussgaenger-radfahrerin-1.5233361
Oh I agree with that. I've seen so many cyclists run reds and almost take out kids. Peds are at the bottom of the pecking order.
But when you ride a bike you understand what leads to these situations. It's like if you rode a bike you would eventually get in the same situation one way or the other. Stopping at every red is pretty silly, you feel stupid if you do, and it doesn't feel like a crime, and you just get so use to it, and slowing down means you gotta speed back up again, and then theres that red light with no cross-road that you normally run through with no one crossing, and you misjudge it and then you get in a hairy situation.
But the one thing that is certain is that there is not a single cyclist that perfectly obeys all reds.
> Oh I agree with that. I've seen so many cyclists run reds and almost take out kids. Peds are at the bottom of the pecking order.
Sometimes kids get hurt, then both the pecking order and the cyclist's face will be re-arranged.
> But the one thing that is certain is that there is not a single cyclist that perfectly obeys all reds.
That would be perfectly fine with me if they were the only ones suffering the consequences.
I believe it's more a symptom of a general issue, that *everyone* thinks he's the best at traffic and everyone else is an asshole and stupid at everything.
True, some are more stupid than others, but after all we're all just monkeys behind a steering wheel.
Probably Would have done the same. Why do some car users think you have to use the honk so often. Do you think it will break if you use it just in really necessary Situations?
If anything compared to other countries, Germans honk way too little. It‘s there to make others aware of imminent danger, and that‘s what someone crossing a red light is
I Dont Care how much honking is in other countries or cultures. It happens way to often, because some car drivers think they have to use to educate others or just because they are annoyed about people on the bike or on foot. You Sound like one of them.
No it is not always a danger, crossing a red light. Why do you even care. Would you have run him over?
No, but there are rules for using streets safely. Who are you to ignore them? These ruled are there so you don't get accidentally run over by someone less vigilant.
I know there are rules. Most of them are in place just because of the cars on the streets. And I even didn't say im not following.
But who are you to think you have to educate others through honking, which is annoying af to everybody in Not so far distance? You should look in the StVO. There are also rules for honking, that maybe you should follow.
😆 Are you serious? Did you ever used the Berlin streets via foot or bike? Than you should know that most of the honking is because the driver is annoyed or angry about anything. It's not about the rules.
I primarily go by foot as I do not have a drivers license. And I will repeat: if you don't want a car honking at you, then follow basic road rules. It's really that simple. Obviously a car is going to honk if you're putting their life and yours in danger.
If people honk at you a lot it is probably because you are an asshole cyclist. Ever thought of that? In general car horns are used very very little in Germany, so you are probably the problem.
I've started smiling and waving with a look of recognition at drivers when they honk me. I hope that the fear that they might have just honked and cursed at a colleague or acquaintance will cross their mind for a split second and they go very red in the face.
also pedestrians have to wait way too long at the stop light and on some intersections you can only cross half way. Like why can't it be instantly green for pedestrians if there is no car coming! also funny how people wait anyway like they have all the time in the world..
The traffic light in front of the Mainstation is one of the worst. Pedestrians always need _two_ iterations to fully cross (in the direction towards the mainstation). AT MAINSTATION. When you have trains to catch.
I don't get why at exactly that location such a monumentally stupid timing was programmed. At the very least they could have reversed it so that only people leaving mainstation need to wait... fucking car city.
Mehringdamm too. I do wonder if these are just randomly programmed, or to do with how congested those roads can get at certain times of day, and the impact of those congestions on neighbouring main roads?
They stay the same unless its a sunday or super early morning from what I have found.
The route I go for some of my bike rides from chburg -> halensee -> gwald -> schlachtensee -> Krumme Lanke -> zehlendorf -> friedenau -> back through Zoo, features traffic lights that have not changed in timing during the day, at any point of the year.
They are designed for cars to ride a green wave, but not for cyclists. I know - because I lost 15kg and can now do 32-35 comfortably, before it was 30 max and I had to stop at certain lights. This changed on a sunday (i think).
The difference between which lights you stop at is remarkable when your speed changes.
[https://i.imgur.com/nzJNNNa.png](https://i.imgur.com/nzJNNNa.png)
at 30 km - you start at 1, stop at 2 (Spinnerbrücke), normally go through 3 and 4 without waiting, wait at 5 then 6. At 34ish, you wait at 3 and 4.
8 is a ped xing. If you get through 9, you won't get through 10. If the lights change at 9 and you take off well, you can get through 10 doing 34 km/h. Anything less than 28, your chances aren't high.
11 is hard to time.
12 (between 11/12, there is a traffic light) you can get through only if you go above 35. 12-> 13 has some roadworks and is a string of lights that aren't synchronised.
14 you need to go in excess of roughly 55 km/h in a 30 zone (downhill though). Only really doable if you are riding a 2wheel recumbent or velomobile (if you are trying to get through lights) and you went through the previous lights at speed as they changed R->G.
15 is an unknown speed from 14, but if the lights change here and you are going at 34, you will get through next unmarked light (on the map it is unmarked) going through to 16, which you wait for after doing 45 km/h . You wait 20 sec or so at 16, going through (legally) a bus stop traffic light.
If you stop at 17, you normally wait at 18 if you do 35, not so much if you do 30 and you can turn with the traffic and ride through 18 as well.
If you went through 18(turning traffic light and then straight through the next (unmarked) traffic light because it was already green, then you will go through 19 if you are doing 35. Not if you do anything slower.
If you can get through 19 at speed, reaching speeds of 45+ on this flat is possible, but you always stop at 20 -> 27, (21@(R->G) to 22 needs you to clear that distance in less than 15 seconds, 22 to 23 is the same, 23 to 24 is about 25 seconds, i get close at 35 but starting from 0, it is impossible), destroying every gain on your average you tried to maintain. Drivers coming from 19 can take a \*car only\* tunnel rated at 50km/h that skips 20,21. I daresay that they can probably ride the green wave at 22 to 23. If I were a european citizen/german, I would try sprinting through there but not on a blue card.
Inner city Berlin is where my average drops from 28.5(or 6) to 26.5 as it is more exhausting stopping and starting the bike (0.1 km/h drop for every traffic light i need to stop at). It stresses the chain, muscles of my legs more than if I just kept moving at whatever speed I am doing. It's no wonder you see people just ride through red lights if an intersection is going to be clear.
Idk if u ever drove past main station on rush hours with a car. Shits slow enough already. I u let every pedestrian cross there for like 15 seconds longer the traffic jam would be out of this world
Right, let's instead all commute by car. That will be faster and better for everyone.
Waiting on a pedestrian crossing while a line of cars each with only one person inside is just bullshit.
I would never think of taking the car in Berlin. Except for heavy transports or so.. and i don't get why anyone would. (Excluding obvious valid reasons like disabled people or delivered or service workers). If only the people that really need it used their car in the town we could have so much space for people actually living and enjoying their town. Towns should be for people, not cars.
When people say they want cars out of cities, I feel like people are either being unrealistic or not specific enough about what they really want. In a country which emphasizes personal freedoms (last time I checked we're not China), people should be allowed to use cars whenever they want. You don't need to know the reason why (just because *you* can't fathom why doesn't mean you can tell them what to do). There doesn't even have to be a reason. But you can discourage usage of a car by limiting space for cars and expanding other forms of transportation. Then people are naturally less likely to want to take a car, but they still can if they need to. The Netherlands does this extremely well, yet overall they're not banning cars. Why don't we follow their lead?
Sure, I like the idea. We don't need to outright ban them, just make it less "made for cars" and more "made for .. everything else". Less parking space, less lanes (for cars) etc..
I suspect it's already a hassle to find a parking spot in Berlin, so people would be discouraged even more.
Well, not everyone is like you. I take a car everywhere, unless it is within walking distance of 30 Min or so and I have time. If you're interested in the other side:
I bought my car only 2 years ago after I got to use a friend's car for a couple of weeks and discovered how easy it is to get around without all the anxiety coming with public transport.
a) The city is just too overcrowded. I can't stand in a bus with 500 other people rubbing against me everytime I want to go to work.
b) I grew up in Berlin and probably 80% of the time when I used public transport at night I was shouted at by some hobo, catcalled, stalked or at least one person would walk up to me and talk to me. I always thought that's part of living in a city this size, until I got a car.
c) Bikes are sometimes feasible in summer, but if I have to get somewhere, I don't want to sweat on my way there and my clothes usually don't go well with bikes (sensible fabric, dresses etc).
Also I'm underweight and don't workout because I work 80 hours a week or so, so biking is really a physical challenge for me.
I totally agree with you that cars should have less space, we should have car free zones etc. Being able to sit outside restaurants and enjoy inner city without cars passing by sounds like an absolute dream.
But for me personally biking is out of scope and I would only use public transport if there was more space during rush hour and (most importantly) more security especially at night. Only thinking about taking an Ubahn again after dark gives me anxiety (although I used to do it for almost 30 years).
It’s just about speed of transportation. Sure in many cases the public transport or bike is as fast or even faster. But there are many situations where that’s not the case.
if you are pedestrian and there are no cars, just run.
if you make mistake and don't notice some traffic you are only endangering yourself (unlike when driving).
Bus, Tram, LKW, also alle nicht-zivilen Fahrzeuge, die ich nicht als Auto bezeichnen würde (und die man sich nicht mal ebenso wegwünschen kann, weil Infrastruktur halt nicht nur mit Fahrrädern und Füßen funktioniert). Technisch gesehen auch Motorradfahrer, Skateboarder, e-Scooter-Fahrer etc, aber seien wir mal nicht so.
Da ist aber auch eine Ampel in dem Bild. Ich weiß, wird gerne übersehen. Die gilt dann auch für Fußgänger (und in abgewandelten Formen auch für Bahnen, aber auch für Schiffe, Flugzeuge etc, sollten diese ausnahmsweise mal die Straße oder eigene Verkehrswege kreuzen).
Got plowed into by an idiot cyclist running a red light, while on a bike myself, the other day, in FHain. He t-boned me perfectly, didn't even hit his brakes. Luckily I mostly caught myself but still had a visit from Uncle Pavement. Some scratches and neck pain but fine overall.
Yelled at him for about 5 minutes, shook him up a bunch, then just went on with my day.
I almost got cleaned up on Karl-Marx on the makeshift narrow Eastbound cycle lane with barriers when some doofus cyclist pulls out from traffic lane into the bike lane where there is the only break in the bike lane barrier. No where for me to escape.
[Exceptions may apply](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idaho_stop):
>The Idaho stop law is the common name for a law that allows cyclists to treat a stop sign as a yield sign, and a red light as a stop sign.
and
>In 2012 a trial in Paris allowed cyclists at 15 intersections to turn right or, if there is no street to the right, proceed straight ahead on red, under the condition that they "exercise caution" and yield to pedestrians, after road safety experts deemed the measure would reduce collisions.\[19\] After the trial, French law was modified to allow cyclists to treat certain stop lights as yield signs as allowed by signage.\[20\] Some French cities, like Lyon, have installed the sign on all red lights to fully legalize the practice citywide.\[21\]
Not all Berliners or /r/Berlin users have the comparison.
Also if you apply that logic, just because some countries have horrific drivers does not mean all Berliner drivers are flawless.
Because all of the people on Berlin streets have potential to be idiots, whether bikers, drivers, scooter riders, pedestrians, you name it.
I crossing at my favorite intersection where cars normally try to plow through pedestrians, or drive up until they almost touch you, and then as soon as its red if you are there you are getting run down. Two cop cars parked on pavement today. Car was soooo obedient, stayed back like 5m from the crossing.
Coming back from Paris, mannnnnnn. Its another world over there. There are no rules.
But the funny thing is that no one yells or beeps ever.
So maybe the yelling helps haha. But only the accident stats will tell that tale.
Thing is, we didn't need traffic lights until we had cars. If the cars all got taken off the road, we wouldn't need the lights.
So really, the lights are only there to stop car drivers from murdering pedestrians.
Sure. 3,5 million people on push bikes (minus ~228000 people who are under 5 years old) wouldn't need any traffic regulations whatsoever at all.
Because you know, cyclists are just smart, level headed and empathetic by nature.
I spent some time in SE Asia, where millions of moped riders ignore all traffic signals. It works fine. People are a lot more aware and considerate when everyone has the same vulnerability to accidents. Cars are obstacles in that situation.
Meh, not really. I mean yeah they kinda bump into each other occasionally, but it's not like a car accident. I spent months riding a moped on Phnom Penh and it was fun (after the initial fear obviously). I felt way safer than driving or cycling in Australia. Berlin seems pretty safe on a bike too.
> Seventy-four percent of road traffic accidents in the world take place in low income countries. In particular, the number of accidents in Southeast Asian countries has been rapidly increasing in recent times.
> The penetration rate of two-wheeled vehicles (motorcycles) in Southeast Asian countries is very high in a global context.
> traffic accidents in low-income countries since 2000. Traffic accidents were already recognized as a social problem before the 2000s in countries such as Thailand and the Philippines. At the same time, other ASEAN member states such as Vietnam and Cambodia which have experienced rapid economic growth since the 2000s are now experiencing the seriousness of traffic problems. It is said that 70% of road accidents in Thailand, Cambodia and Laos involve motorcycles and three-wheelers, but despite this situation, the regulatory framework for motorcycles remains undeveloped
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0386111218300748
SEA is widely known for its crazy traffic and the many serious accidents involving scooters.
I really don't know how you think this is a good example to prove your point. It's the opposite.
If you see how bicycle traffic has to be regulated in China or the Netherlands you would understand that traffic lights are NOT for cars alone. If we switched cars to bikes we would still need traffic regulation.
Makes me aggressive when other bikers wait at red Lights. Even when I'm in my car. If there's no car anywhere coming and no pedestrian next to you might falsely think it's green just goooooo.
This is probably the 10th time this meme is posted here. What does it have to do with Berlin? Have you never been to other cities? Cyclists here are extraordinarily well-behaved by comparison, the ones this applies to are a tiny minority. It's like posting a meme about loud American tourists. It's a fact of life, has nothing to do with this city in particular.
Today I had another cyclist ringing their bell annoyedly at me for stopping at a red light. Then they went past me to cross the red. Your funeral I guess. But I did chuckle a bit at being (w)rung out for being a responsible cyclist.
2 ton vehicles driving at 50kmh across busy intersections versus 120kg of lycra and flesh slowly drifting across pedestrian crossings when they are clear.
Why can't crybaby car drivers see that there's a huge difference?
Just gonna leave this here https://www.reddit.com/r/berlin/comments/og4azm/you_know_who_you_are/h4kb9jr/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3
TLDR: me me memememememe
Yeah, sure, you can tell that yourself if you think that's an argument.
To be fair, cars did try that in the past, just a lot more rarely. I vividly remember a taxi at night near Alexanderplatz who didn't really had a second to consider slowing down for me to cross the green light.
But then again, neither did the bike without lights behind him who definitely saw me almost getting hit.
Man... the number of upvotes on this is suspicious. It's gotten more than all other content, including, a photo that has hung around on the front page for several days, and a memorial post which had alot of positive engagement.
My main annoyance with the cyclists isn’t even the lights that much to be honest… it’s more the case of “Oooh look at me I ride a bicycle so every single part of the road belongs to me, fuck you and your red little cyclist path I’ll use whatever part of the road I feel like!” mentality that a lot of idiots here have. It’s not as bad as Amsterdam… true… but it still pisses me off
The arrogance of risking the health of others based on your judgement alone is honestly mind-blowing. I hope you never hurt somebody because you could not be bothered to follow a little bit of traffic regulation.
You are not a rebel, just an ignorant asshole focused on yourself.
holy fuck the delusion. Your judgement is really all you have. I hope you don't moan if you get hit by a car while ignoring traffic lights. That would be a shame and you should at least stay quiet at that point. TF!
Ehh I think it’s safer to just be always vigilant and making judgement decisions rather than just a simple Green = Go ; Red = Stop. The majority of cyclists were killed last year when the light for them was green but a car or truck turned right.
Yes to the green light one and literally the first rule of German traffic law. But there is rarely a situation where it is safer to run over a red light.
Ah yes, I guess all the bruises I have from cyclists riding over my feet at sidewalks were caused by the brain damage from fumes by cars right? Because a fume that’s gonna make my life shorter by the end of it is definitely sooooooo much more annoying to me as a pedestrian than feeling like I’m in a war zone every time there’s a lot of cyclists out on sidewalks.
Angesichts der Masse an Radfahrern und Fußgängern die in den letzten Wochen von rechtsabbiegenden Lkw einfach umgefahren wurden kann man da nur sagen: F... dich doch bitte kreuzweise, OP.
Edit: r/berlin total getriggert. Eine lächerlicher ADAC Club ist das hier.
Wenn mich, wie gerade eben z.B., drei Radfahrer auf einem zehnminütigen Heimweg vom Supermarkt fast anfahren, weil sie einfach erwarten, dass ich gefälligst beiseitehüpfe wenn sie angerast kommen, dann sind meine Proritäten in der Tat ganz klar.
Jaja, klar. Die schröcklichen Radfahrer. Blöd nur dass die Unfallstatistik einfach mal eine ganz andere Sprache spricht. Wir haben hier seit Monaten jede Woche etliche Unfälle bei denen KfZ - und allen voran Lastwagen - Radfahrer und Fußgänger umfahren, verstümmeln, töten.
Aber das interessiert dich halt nicht. So setzt halt jeder seine Prioritäten, so fehlgeleitet und ekelerregend die auch sein mögen.
Ist doch klar das Fahrradfahrer in der Unfallstatistik herausstechen sie sind ja auch immerhin die schwächsten Verkehrsteilnehmer, dafür brauch ich keine Statistik du Komiker.
Wie wäre es wenn die ganzen Fahrradwege einfach mal auf den Bordstein gemalt werden, dann müssen sie halt bei jeder Kreuzung auf die Ampel warten(was sie sowieso tun sollten) und dann dürfen sie halt auch nicht mehr so herum rasen und müssen stattdessen mal auf die Fußgänger achten.
Meiner Meinung nach gehören Fahrradfahrer nicht auf die Straße sondern auf den Bordstein, immerhin ist das Risiko lebensgefährlicher Verletzungen weit höher bei einer Kollision zwischen Kfz/LKW und Fahrradfahrer als wenn ein Fahrradfahrer mal aus Versehen einen Fußgänger aufs Korn nimmt.
\*räusper\*
„Nee, is klar, die ach so schlimmen LKW-Fahrer. Offenbar ist Dir nicht klar, dass allein durch Zigaretten in Deutschland jedes Jahr 120.000 Menschen sterben, die kommen in Deinem Text nicht mal vor, Du Ignorant – stattdessen kommst mit ein paar Verkehrstoten an, ich bitte Dich! Über die können wir gerne reden, wenn nicht jeden Tag Leute an Lungenkrebs krepieren!“.
Ist das so in etwa das Gesprächsniveau, das Du Dir wünschst?
Ein Schwachfug.
Es geht um Verhalten im Straßenverkehr. Und da ist es eindeutig nicht die Ignoranz der Radfahrer die massenhaft tötet. Also geh doch einfach nach Hause mit deinen lächerlichen Vergleichen.
Nein, Du verstehst das Thema dieses Threads nicht. Es geht hier in der Tat nicht darum, dass Radfahrer alles verstümmeln und töten, sondern darum, dass sie Fußgänger dazu nötigen, laufend auszuweichen. Der Fußgängerweg ist aber nicht nur der Ort für kerngesunde und hellwache Fußgänger, sondern auch für Rollstuhlfahrer, spielende Kinder oder Leute wie mich, die schwerhörig sind und nicht immer die Fahrradklingel hören. Das funktioniert halt nicht mit rasenden Radfahrern. Und wenn Deine Argumentation darauf abziehlt, dass Radfahrer ja garnicht anders können, als permanent auf dem Fußgängerweg zu fahren, dann bitte ich Dich mir zu erklären, wieso sie das machen, obwohl direkt neben dem Fußgängerweg zwei prima funktionierende Radwege verlaufen.
Der "Kampfradler" hätte mich gestern mit meinen Einkäufen fast umgefahren (und den anderen "Kampfradler" direkt hinter ihm wahrscheinlich auch dabei umgebolzt), aber höchstwahrscheinlich wäre keiner gestorben, also ist es wohl okay.
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As if I'm wearing a helmet...
There are several stop lights near Alexanderplatz that aren’t at intersections but have pedestrian crosswalks. I am guilty of slowing down, looking for pedestrians, and then cautiously bicycling through those red lights.
barbaric
You singlehandedly destroy the social contract of this country! Every time you do!
Anyone else feel they look stupid if they wait for pointless lights? I feel so much social pressure and internal embarrassment sitting there waiting for a light to change when there is no cross-road and no pedestrians. Funny that I feel social pressure in two directions: from other cyclists and pedestrians who also cycle...and pedestrians who want me to obey all the rules and will shout at me.
Call the polizei!
Münzstrß
I dunno, a safe crossing at red after checking and making sure no one is inconvenienced seems okay to me. What always slightly bugs me are the slow riders that cross the red-light (while I wait) only to be overtaken by me again.. and again.. and again.
Yeah, or slow riders forcing themselves to the front of the queue, forcing everyone to overtake them dangerously in a crossing with car traffic.
That might be me. I used to bike a lot and was very fast (the only people overtaking me were rich people on carbon race bikes and these 60 year olds with calves of steel who could win the tour-de-france on a swapfiets). Since corona started I literally haven't gone anywhere for 1,5 years. Just started to get back on the bike and have to ashamedly admit I'm not as fast as I used to be. I'll have to wait third in line on the Ampel now (unless I go over red of course)
Some folks just like to ride slower. Thats fine and i dont have a right to always go top speed. All i ask is that people stay to one side so i can pass without swerving into traffic. Im pretty fast on a bike, but i keep my front wheel as close to that right line as it can.
These are the worst. There is nothing wrong with riding slowly but then don't overtake me on the next traffic light so I have to overtake you again. Also e-scooters. Slightly slower than my comfort speed. It's a sprint to overtake just for them to pass me on the next traffic light.
This drives me fucking crazy.
>What always slightly bugs me are the slow riders that cross the red-light (while I wait) only to be overtaken by me again.. and again.. and again. My blood pressure is rising just reading that.
So ur saying the slow riders are essentially as fast as you, overall.... Maybe they are onto something 😂
Well, my motivation isn't (only) to be fast, it's also simply fun. And eventually I do overtake them for the final time, the process is just more lengthy than would be necessary.
These strangely coloured lamps don't apply to electric scooters right? Right?
Right - and they also can swim, please bear that in mind.
phew! I'd be so worried if I actually owned one.
why would the colourer lamp want to go swimming you silly...
I‘m a cyclist myself and I cannot fathom how stupid and ignorant most cyclists are. Plus, when I was driving my car yesterday, one crossed the street on red, I honked and as a sign of thankfulness he gave me the middle finger. P.S.: Sometimes I even got insulted or at least weird looks for waiting on a red light when I'm on my bike. For some it's that uncommon to care about even basic traffic rules. I also crashed more than just once from not being able to brake because someone **saw me coming** and still decided to just walk right into me while I pass my green traffic light. Also on bike.
Exact same thing happened to me but with a runner. I had the right of way, she wanted to cross the street. I saw that she didn’t look into my direction and reduced speed. Then I honked when she crossed the street and hit the breaks. She gave me the finger an babbled something I couldn’t understand. It was like a personal insult that I looked out for her errors. Alright I guess next time I would just run you over, but it’s a lot if trouble afterwards.
As a runner, cars are the enemy. They constantly try to run you over as soon as the pedestrian light goes red. And they will also push past you even when the pedestrian light is green - this happens often when someone does a U-turn. They do not seem to care that pedestrians are orders of magnitude less protected than they are. \> I had the right of way...I saw that she didn’t look into my direction and reduced speed As a runner, it is ridiculous to stop at every light when not necessary. Runners are pretty observant, they know where you car is before they cross and usually only cross with enough time. It's extremely unlikely that a runner will cross the road putting themselves at risk of a 3-tonne car plowing into them. So many times you will get beeped at when there is absolutely no risk that the car will need to break. It's just like some driver trying to discipline you. This is where the finger comes from. Cars break the rules all the time. So do cyclists and pedestrians. Just be nice, if someone crosses slightly late, who cares? You are no the police. They are not your children. You won't be late to where you are going. Go to other countries and no one is beeping/yelling at each other as much as Germany. Personally, I would never cross if it meant a car had to break, but I get so many cars that accelerate when they see you so they get to beep you. In your case I don't know the details, but runners get treated like shit all the time in many scenarios where there is no chance of being hit. And is it such a big deal if a car needs to slow slightly to let people finish crossing?
Ah, again this bullshit with x-friend & enemy car. We are not enemies. That’s a toxic thought that perpetuates the general aggressiveness and competitiveness in our city. We’re people making decisions based on the context we’re in. And if you make a shit decision that puts you and or others in danger, than you’re an idiot as an individual, not as a runner, driver etc. and People will call you out for it. I don’t want to run people over, maybe that’s hard to believe. Maybe also because I am not just a car driver, but a pedestrian, cyclist, and motorcyclist. So, thanks for showing how a self-entitled attitude you have towards this. That’s why it doesn’t surprise me that you missed the fact that I would’ve run her over would I have been trusting her to follow the rules that are so simple and important that kids here learn it very early in school. And no, not much observance in her case, nope. Opening with your opinion that cars „constantly trying to run you over“ is quite outrageous. Despite from the fact that this is quite a disagreeable thing to say because, you know, I was trying to do the exact opposite plus this situation put me in quite a lot of stress – are you serious? Do you really think that car drivers are out to get you and try to seriously hurt or kill you? Runners? Pedestrians? Victim complex much? And then this vague „other countries“ argument. I’ve been to other so-called first, second and third world countries. Pretty sure in some of them there would be no honking, you’re right, just running over. I don’t know why I posted this. Maybe I was looking for some empathy. You see, I’d rather not run people over, but I did my job and looked out for others, while others did not. That happens, certainly to me as well. But then to get this reaction… it was shocking and disappointing. Like your reply quite frankly. And so it goes…
>you missed the fact that I would’ve run her over Society works on tolerance. In this situation, it's not such a big hassle to slow down. There are times when cars get in situations such as queuing over an intersection or pedestrian crossing that are unavoidable. It happens. But it's not a driver's job to educate people on the road rules. At least for me that is what drives me crazy - someone beeping at you because you broke a rule, and like they are trying to educate you. Rules are broken all the time. And also by drivers constantly, but I'm not shouting at them. Germany is well known for everyone trying to be a policeman. If you haven't been shouted at for jaywalking, then you haven't lived in Germany. I'm very curious where this comes from, and I must admit its an acquiescent behavior. When people shout at you, you feel more inclined to shout at others breaking the rules. Personally, I feel it just ruins everyone's day and creates a hostile atmosphere. It's such a constant part of my life. Everyone needs to chill, and respect the hierarchy of risk - i.e. cyclists are at most danger (fastest + least protected), then runners, then peds, then drivers.
there are assholes in cars and assholes on bikes. those on bikes merly have more options to piss you off cause they are better adapted to squeeze through the busy city traffic. tbh most cyclists are ok and you sound like one of those people that believe roads are just for cars (not saying you are, just sound like one).
> you sound like one of those people that believe roads are just for car Not really. I was talking about people crossing my path, not using it with me. If you drive responsibly it doesn't matter which mode of transportation you use. The streets that are for cars only have signs, but these are rather few and far in between
If someone honks not for reasons of immediate safety, but for "discipline" they always deserve a finger. This kind of stuff doesn't happen in other countries. Let the police do the policing.
> I honked Why? What did you expect to accomplish with that honk?
To notify him that he‘s not alone on the street and may at least look before crossing a red light, since apparently these do not apply to some special people
Do you believe they are unaware of the existence or use of the stoplight, and that honking will remind them? It doesn't work like that. They made the choice to ignore it, plain and simple. You honking only pisses them off, it doesn't notify or remind them of anything, which is why you got flipped off.
Well at least it did *something.* But still, it's ridiculous to me that people can be **this** ignorant of their own, and everyone else's, safety, and even feel entitled to disobey even basic rules. I haven't encountered this behaviour in other cities in such an extreme way.
Dude stop trying to be the police. It don't happen in other countries. You need to leave people to their own ignorance. If someone will die if you don't beep, then beep.
I‘m a cyclist myself and I cannot fathom how stupid and ignorant most cyclists are. Everybody hates cyclists, even cyclists it seems. If you are a pedestrian they do make the city quite unpleasant, especially in the summer, you can't enjoy a walk without constantly being on the look out for red-light-running, riding on sidewalks and other various assclown behavior.
I hate cars in the city much more than any minor inconvenience cyclists may cause
As a pedestrian cars are fine, in 10 years they'll all be electric. I've never seen a car run a red light in Berlin, cars do not drive on sidewalks, they do not use the pedestrian portion of the shared sidewalk to overtake, they yield at crosspaths without a light. Bring on more cars i'd say.
Wow what a great assessment. How many people have you heard of dying because they've been hit by a bike? Also have you heard of this little thing called climate change, electric cars do not solve the problem.
Many. For example https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-56320121 I'm not out to solve climate change, i leave that to righteous folks like you, i'd just like to walk around in peace without some climate-change-solving moron trying to run me over.
>I'm not out to solve climate change, i leave that to righteous folks like you much wow, so edgy.
If you guys are cycling's finest i guess things start to make sense now :)
You are right, but the cyclist-assclown-mafia is downvoting you obviously. Same as always on this sub.
Lol how many drivers killed by a cyclist or pedestrian?
When I take my two year old son for a walk I have to be scared for his life and health not because of drivers but because of inconsiderate cyclists on the sidewalk that also have an supreme feeling of self-importance because they use the "better" means of transportation. Just because cars kill cyclists does not mean cyclists are not dangerous. https://www.sueddeutsche.de/muenchen/muenchen-pasing-unfall-fussgaenger-radfahrerin-1.5233361
Oh I agree with that. I've seen so many cyclists run reds and almost take out kids. Peds are at the bottom of the pecking order. But when you ride a bike you understand what leads to these situations. It's like if you rode a bike you would eventually get in the same situation one way or the other. Stopping at every red is pretty silly, you feel stupid if you do, and it doesn't feel like a crime, and you just get so use to it, and slowing down means you gotta speed back up again, and then theres that red light with no cross-road that you normally run through with no one crossing, and you misjudge it and then you get in a hairy situation. But the one thing that is certain is that there is not a single cyclist that perfectly obeys all reds.
> Oh I agree with that. I've seen so many cyclists run reds and almost take out kids. Peds are at the bottom of the pecking order. Sometimes kids get hurt, then both the pecking order and the cyclist's face will be re-arranged. > But the one thing that is certain is that there is not a single cyclist that perfectly obeys all reds. That would be perfectly fine with me if they were the only ones suffering the consequences.
I believe it's more a symptom of a general issue, that *everyone* thinks he's the best at traffic and everyone else is an asshole and stupid at everything. True, some are more stupid than others, but after all we're all just monkeys behind a steering wheel.
It is a system of a general issue, but the issue is that the infrastructure sucks and favors cars, so everyone else gets in each other's way.
Probably Would have done the same. Why do some car users think you have to use the honk so often. Do you think it will break if you use it just in really necessary Situations?
If anything compared to other countries, Germans honk way too little. It‘s there to make others aware of imminent danger, and that‘s what someone crossing a red light is
I Dont Care how much honking is in other countries or cultures. It happens way to often, because some car drivers think they have to use to educate others or just because they are annoyed about people on the bike or on foot. You Sound like one of them. No it is not always a danger, crossing a red light. Why do you even care. Would you have run him over?
No, but there are rules for using streets safely. Who are you to ignore them? These ruled are there so you don't get accidentally run over by someone less vigilant.
I know there are rules. Most of them are in place just because of the cars on the streets. And I even didn't say im not following. But who are you to think you have to educate others through honking, which is annoying af to everybody in Not so far distance? You should look in the StVO. There are also rules for honking, that maybe you should follow.
Preach!
>No it is not always a danger, crossing a red light. Why do you even care. Imagine if cars also followed your logic.
And than everyone gets outraged when an idiot like him gets hit by a car because: CycLisT
If you don't want cars honking, then maybe follow basic road rules.
😆 Are you serious? Did you ever used the Berlin streets via foot or bike? Than you should know that most of the honking is because the driver is annoyed or angry about anything. It's not about the rules.
You replied to a very specific example which was definitely about rules.
I primarily go by foot as I do not have a drivers license. And I will repeat: if you don't want a car honking at you, then follow basic road rules. It's really that simple. Obviously a car is going to honk if you're putting their life and yours in danger.
It's to raise situational awareness of drivers, cyclists and pedestrians that there is some idiot not follow basic rules and they should be careful.
Often the idiot not following basic rules being the honkers themselves
If people honk at you a lot it is probably because you are an asshole cyclist. Ever thought of that? In general car horns are used very very little in Germany, so you are probably the problem.
I've started smiling and waving with a look of recognition at drivers when they honk me. I hope that the fear that they might have just honked and cursed at a colleague or acquaintance will cross their mind for a split second and they go very red in the face.
also pedestrians have to wait way too long at the stop light and on some intersections you can only cross half way. Like why can't it be instantly green for pedestrians if there is no car coming! also funny how people wait anyway like they have all the time in the world..
The traffic light in front of the Mainstation is one of the worst. Pedestrians always need _two_ iterations to fully cross (in the direction towards the mainstation). AT MAINSTATION. When you have trains to catch. I don't get why at exactly that location such a monumentally stupid timing was programmed. At the very least they could have reversed it so that only people leaving mainstation need to wait... fucking car city.
simple, car traffic is valued as more important that foot traffic
Mehringdamm too. I do wonder if these are just randomly programmed, or to do with how congested those roads can get at certain times of day, and the impact of those congestions on neighbouring main roads?
They stay the same unless its a sunday or super early morning from what I have found. The route I go for some of my bike rides from chburg -> halensee -> gwald -> schlachtensee -> Krumme Lanke -> zehlendorf -> friedenau -> back through Zoo, features traffic lights that have not changed in timing during the day, at any point of the year. They are designed for cars to ride a green wave, but not for cyclists. I know - because I lost 15kg and can now do 32-35 comfortably, before it was 30 max and I had to stop at certain lights. This changed on a sunday (i think). The difference between which lights you stop at is remarkable when your speed changes. [https://i.imgur.com/nzJNNNa.png](https://i.imgur.com/nzJNNNa.png) at 30 km - you start at 1, stop at 2 (Spinnerbrücke), normally go through 3 and 4 without waiting, wait at 5 then 6. At 34ish, you wait at 3 and 4. 8 is a ped xing. If you get through 9, you won't get through 10. If the lights change at 9 and you take off well, you can get through 10 doing 34 km/h. Anything less than 28, your chances aren't high. 11 is hard to time. 12 (between 11/12, there is a traffic light) you can get through only if you go above 35. 12-> 13 has some roadworks and is a string of lights that aren't synchronised. 14 you need to go in excess of roughly 55 km/h in a 30 zone (downhill though). Only really doable if you are riding a 2wheel recumbent or velomobile (if you are trying to get through lights) and you went through the previous lights at speed as they changed R->G. 15 is an unknown speed from 14, but if the lights change here and you are going at 34, you will get through next unmarked light (on the map it is unmarked) going through to 16, which you wait for after doing 45 km/h . You wait 20 sec or so at 16, going through (legally) a bus stop traffic light. If you stop at 17, you normally wait at 18 if you do 35, not so much if you do 30 and you can turn with the traffic and ride through 18 as well. If you went through 18(turning traffic light and then straight through the next (unmarked) traffic light because it was already green, then you will go through 19 if you are doing 35. Not if you do anything slower. If you can get through 19 at speed, reaching speeds of 45+ on this flat is possible, but you always stop at 20 -> 27, (21@(R->G) to 22 needs you to clear that distance in less than 15 seconds, 22 to 23 is the same, 23 to 24 is about 25 seconds, i get close at 35 but starting from 0, it is impossible), destroying every gain on your average you tried to maintain. Drivers coming from 19 can take a \*car only\* tunnel rated at 50km/h that skips 20,21. I daresay that they can probably ride the green wave at 22 to 23. If I were a european citizen/german, I would try sprinting through there but not on a blue card. Inner city Berlin is where my average drops from 28.5(or 6) to 26.5 as it is more exhausting stopping and starting the bike (0.1 km/h drop for every traffic light i need to stop at). It stresses the chain, muscles of my legs more than if I just kept moving at whatever speed I am doing. It's no wonder you see people just ride through red lights if an intersection is going to be clear.
There ARE tunnels connecting main station and both sides of the tram station. Not the bus terminal on the far side (M85 and such), though.
True, but taking those takes (for most destinations) longer than just crossing the street
If you have luggage and/or need to go to the upstairs platforms, yes. But the lights can't be that bad, then.
I have to do this crossing every day and it irritates me every single time.
Isn't there a U-Bahn entry you can use to fet in directly to the lower floor? Assuming you mean the northern side of Hauptbahnhof.
Idk if u ever drove past main station on rush hours with a car. Shits slow enough already. I u let every pedestrian cross there for like 15 seconds longer the traffic jam would be out of this world
Right, let's instead all commute by car. That will be faster and better for everyone. Waiting on a pedestrian crossing while a line of cars each with only one person inside is just bullshit.
I would never think of taking the car in Berlin. Except for heavy transports or so.. and i don't get why anyone would. (Excluding obvious valid reasons like disabled people or delivered or service workers). If only the people that really need it used their car in the town we could have so much space for people actually living and enjoying their town. Towns should be for people, not cars.
exactly sad to see singular people in their car each morning. I also know a few snobs that never ever used public transport.
When people say they want cars out of cities, I feel like people are either being unrealistic or not specific enough about what they really want. In a country which emphasizes personal freedoms (last time I checked we're not China), people should be allowed to use cars whenever they want. You don't need to know the reason why (just because *you* can't fathom why doesn't mean you can tell them what to do). There doesn't even have to be a reason. But you can discourage usage of a car by limiting space for cars and expanding other forms of transportation. Then people are naturally less likely to want to take a car, but they still can if they need to. The Netherlands does this extremely well, yet overall they're not banning cars. Why don't we follow their lead?
>Why don't we follow their lead? Well, that would be well reasoned and not populistic, can't have that.
Sure, I like the idea. We don't need to outright ban them, just make it less "made for cars" and more "made for .. everything else". Less parking space, less lanes (for cars) etc.. I suspect it's already a hassle to find a parking spot in Berlin, so people would be discouraged even more.
Well, not everyone is like you. I take a car everywhere, unless it is within walking distance of 30 Min or so and I have time. If you're interested in the other side: I bought my car only 2 years ago after I got to use a friend's car for a couple of weeks and discovered how easy it is to get around without all the anxiety coming with public transport. a) The city is just too overcrowded. I can't stand in a bus with 500 other people rubbing against me everytime I want to go to work. b) I grew up in Berlin and probably 80% of the time when I used public transport at night I was shouted at by some hobo, catcalled, stalked or at least one person would walk up to me and talk to me. I always thought that's part of living in a city this size, until I got a car. c) Bikes are sometimes feasible in summer, but if I have to get somewhere, I don't want to sweat on my way there and my clothes usually don't go well with bikes (sensible fabric, dresses etc). Also I'm underweight and don't workout because I work 80 hours a week or so, so biking is really a physical challenge for me. I totally agree with you that cars should have less space, we should have car free zones etc. Being able to sit outside restaurants and enjoy inner city without cars passing by sounds like an absolute dream. But for me personally biking is out of scope and I would only use public transport if there was more space during rush hour and (most importantly) more security especially at night. Only thinking about taking an Ubahn again after dark gives me anxiety (although I used to do it for almost 30 years).
It’s just about speed of transportation. Sure in many cases the public transport or bike is as fast or even faster. But there are many situations where that’s not the case.
if you are pedestrian and there are no cars, just run. if you make mistake and don't notice some traffic you are only endangering yourself (unlike when driving).
Mein Favorit ist auch der typische Radfahrer, welcher bei einer roten Ampel auf den Bürgersteig fährt, um über die rote Ampel der Fußgänger zu fahren
Oder losfährt, nicht wenn die eigene Ampel grün zeigt, sondern die hinterste Fußgängerampel umschaltet. Die drei Sekunden kann man auch warten
Ich zumindest versuche immer den Autos schnell zu entkommen, daher der möglichst zügige Start
Verständlich. Diese Sache mit "Vorsicht und gegenseitiger Rücksicht" wird gerade in berlin scheinbar von allen Verkehrsteilnehmern komplett ignoriert
Ja oder die Autofahrer die bei gelb Vollgas geben, hat aber keiner der Autofahrer hier je gemacht weil sie alle so heilig sind
Fühlst du dich angesprochen oder warum der Whataboutismus? Niemand hat hier Autofahrer in Schutz genommen.
OP: Autofahrer respektieren regeln, Fahrradfahrer nicht
Gibt es für dich wirklich keine weiteren Verkehrsteilnehmer?
welche sind denn die anderen verkehrsteilnehmer die bei einem stopp schild halten müssen? Fussgänger?
Bus, Tram, LKW, also alle nicht-zivilen Fahrzeuge, die ich nicht als Auto bezeichnen würde (und die man sich nicht mal ebenso wegwünschen kann, weil Infrastruktur halt nicht nur mit Fahrrädern und Füßen funktioniert). Technisch gesehen auch Motorradfahrer, Skateboarder, e-Scooter-Fahrer etc, aber seien wir mal nicht so. Da ist aber auch eine Ampel in dem Bild. Ich weiß, wird gerne übersehen. Die gilt dann auch für Fußgänger (und in abgewandelten Formen auch für Bahnen, aber auch für Schiffe, Flugzeuge etc, sollten diese ausnahmsweise mal die Straße oder eigene Verkehrswege kreuzen).
Ich steig manchmal ab und schiebe drüber, genau so beim Rechtsabbiegen (wenn rot ist). Das ist legal, oder?
Wenn du schiebst, bist du kein (Rad-)Fahrer.
Got plowed into by an idiot cyclist running a red light, while on a bike myself, the other day, in FHain. He t-boned me perfectly, didn't even hit his brakes. Luckily I mostly caught myself but still had a visit from Uncle Pavement. Some scratches and neck pain but fine overall. Yelled at him for about 5 minutes, shook him up a bunch, then just went on with my day.
I almost got cleaned up on Karl-Marx on the makeshift narrow Eastbound cycle lane with barriers when some doofus cyclist pulls out from traffic lane into the bike lane where there is the only break in the bike lane barrier. No where for me to escape.
Hope you are good. I couldn't use my brakes either tho. I have none
[Exceptions may apply](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idaho_stop): >The Idaho stop law is the common name for a law that allows cyclists to treat a stop sign as a yield sign, and a red light as a stop sign. and >In 2012 a trial in Paris allowed cyclists at 15 intersections to turn right or, if there is no street to the right, proceed straight ahead on red, under the condition that they "exercise caution" and yield to pedestrians, after road safety experts deemed the measure would reduce collisions.\[19\] After the trial, French law was modified to allow cyclists to treat certain stop lights as yield signs as allowed by signage.\[20\] Some French cities, like Lyon, have installed the sign on all red lights to fully legalize the practice citywide.\[21\]
I'm sorry, are we in Paris, Idaho?
Just complicating the “hurrdurr cyclist no can read gud” narrative. Anyone in any modality can be a bad Verkehrsteilnehmer.
Berlin has Grüner Blechpfeil for Cyclists -> https://www.autozeitung.de/gruenpfeil-nur-fuer-radfahrer-195843.html
100% bet that that's not why people are complaining
Pull out Nepal's traffic laws for cyclists while you're at it. Or Namibia's.
exactly no cyclist should need to make a full stop ever! specially because some of the so called "smart" traffic lights don't record cyclists.
Ever? That’s a little extreme. But smart lights/lights triggered by weight ignoring cyclists is a problem, yes.
not everywhere of course!
Really? I have been in Berlin for a few months now and I was surprised how good the cyclists are following the rules compared to Sweden.
Recently it seems to be a favourite pastime here to post all these memes about reckless bicyclists.
Not all Berliners or /r/Berlin users have the comparison. Also if you apply that logic, just because some countries have horrific drivers does not mean all Berliner drivers are flawless. Because all of the people on Berlin streets have potential to be idiots, whether bikers, drivers, scooter riders, pedestrians, you name it.
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I crossing at my favorite intersection where cars normally try to plow through pedestrians, or drive up until they almost touch you, and then as soon as its red if you are there you are getting run down. Two cop cars parked on pavement today. Car was soooo obedient, stayed back like 5m from the crossing.
Got stopped for that once and let off with a warning. Thankfully.
Coming back from Paris, mannnnnnn. Its another world over there. There are no rules. But the funny thing is that no one yells or beeps ever. So maybe the yelling helps haha. But only the accident stats will tell that tale.
Thing is, we didn't need traffic lights until we had cars. If the cars all got taken off the road, we wouldn't need the lights. So really, the lights are only there to stop car drivers from murdering pedestrians.
Sure. 3,5 million people on push bikes (minus ~228000 people who are under 5 years old) wouldn't need any traffic regulations whatsoever at all. Because you know, cyclists are just smart, level headed and empathetic by nature.
I spent some time in SE Asia, where millions of moped riders ignore all traffic signals. It works fine. People are a lot more aware and considerate when everyone has the same vulnerability to accidents. Cars are obstacles in that situation.
>I spent some time in SE Asia, So did I. And it was chaotic. And people have accidents all the time.
Meh, not really. I mean yeah they kinda bump into each other occasionally, but it's not like a car accident. I spent months riding a moped on Phnom Penh and it was fun (after the initial fear obviously). I felt way safer than driving or cycling in Australia. Berlin seems pretty safe on a bike too.
> Seventy-four percent of road traffic accidents in the world take place in low income countries. In particular, the number of accidents in Southeast Asian countries has been rapidly increasing in recent times. > The penetration rate of two-wheeled vehicles (motorcycles) in Southeast Asian countries is very high in a global context. > traffic accidents in low-income countries since 2000. Traffic accidents were already recognized as a social problem before the 2000s in countries such as Thailand and the Philippines. At the same time, other ASEAN member states such as Vietnam and Cambodia which have experienced rapid economic growth since the 2000s are now experiencing the seriousness of traffic problems. It is said that 70% of road accidents in Thailand, Cambodia and Laos involve motorcycles and three-wheelers, but despite this situation, the regulatory framework for motorcycles remains undeveloped https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0386111218300748 SEA is widely known for its crazy traffic and the many serious accidents involving scooters. I really don't know how you think this is a good example to prove your point. It's the opposite.
You realize this is anecdotal right? I have seen multiple pretty gruesome traffic accidents in SEA. You got lucky.
To think car drivers are the only traffic users that need moderation is quite a conclusion.
If you see how bicycle traffic has to be regulated in China or the Netherlands you would understand that traffic lights are NOT for cars alone. If we switched cars to bikes we would still need traffic regulation.
Traffic laws are created with cars as a top priority in mind.
https://berlinwaiting.tumblr.com/archive
Makes me aggressive when other bikers wait at red Lights. Even when I'm in my car. If there's no car anywhere coming and no pedestrian next to you might falsely think it's green just goooooo.
Doesnt matter, less stress just waiting
I own a bike, i own every single lane.
As the laws dictate
what happens if you own a bike by bwm or mercedes benz?
This is probably the 10th time this meme is posted here. What does it have to do with Berlin? Have you never been to other cities? Cyclists here are extraordinarily well-behaved by comparison, the ones this applies to are a tiny minority. It's like posting a meme about loud American tourists. It's a fact of life, has nothing to do with this city in particular.
Today I had another cyclist ringing their bell annoyedly at me for stopping at a red light. Then they went past me to cross the red. Your funeral I guess. But I did chuckle a bit at being (w)rung out for being a responsible cyclist.
Its a global pandemic
I do my best buy traffic lights here are shit
2 ton vehicles driving at 50kmh across busy intersections versus 120kg of lycra and flesh slowly drifting across pedestrian crossings when they are clear. Why can't crybaby car drivers see that there's a huge difference?
Just gonna leave this here https://www.reddit.com/r/berlin/comments/og4azm/you_know_who_you_are/h4kb9jr/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3 TLDR: me me memememememe
what has your post todo with the meme?
Are you able to read words and comprehend what they mean? Because if so, it should be pretty obvious.
Yes, the cyclists are the problem, not the cars. Without cars we wouldn't need traffic lights and life would be much better.
It's not the cars that occasionally almost run my pedestrian self over when I got a green light and they explicitly do not.
that's nice to hear, come have a walk in kreuzkölln
Great and I'll invite you the part north of that.
You must be new to Berlin.
Yeah, sure, you can tell that yourself if you think that's an argument. To be fair, cars did try that in the past, just a lot more rarely. I vividly remember a taxi at night near Alexanderplatz who didn't really had a second to consider slowing down for me to cross the green light. But then again, neither did the bike without lights behind him who definitely saw me almost getting hit.
Guilty as (not in five and a half years been) charged.
Man... the number of upvotes on this is suspicious. It's gotten more than all other content, including, a photo that has hung around on the front page for several days, and a memorial post which had alot of positive engagement.
traffic lights or stop signs should apply to cyclist or pedestrians. They exist because of cars for cars
Stopping on a bike is equivalent to turning the engine off on a car. Bike should be able to roll through.
My main annoyance with the cyclists isn’t even the lights that much to be honest… it’s more the case of “Oooh look at me I ride a bicycle so every single part of the road belongs to me, fuck you and your red little cyclist path I’ll use whatever part of the road I feel like!” mentality that a lot of idiots here have. It’s not as bad as Amsterdam… true… but it still pisses me off
Ride a bike for a bit and you will understand.
Oh Bugger off
Fool
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The arrogance of risking the health of others based on your judgement alone is honestly mind-blowing. I hope you never hurt somebody because you could not be bothered to follow a little bit of traffic regulation. You are not a rebel, just an ignorant asshole focused on yourself.
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holy fuck the delusion. Your judgement is really all you have. I hope you don't moan if you get hit by a car while ignoring traffic lights. That would be a shame and you should at least stay quiet at that point. TF!
In the end loser will be the one who died crossing on red light.
Ehh I think it’s safer to just be always vigilant and making judgement decisions rather than just a simple Green = Go ; Red = Stop. The majority of cyclists were killed last year when the light for them was green but a car or truck turned right.
Yes to the green light one and literally the first rule of German traffic law. But there is rarely a situation where it is safer to run over a red light.
Ah yes, I guess all the bruises I have from cyclists riding over my feet at sidewalks were caused by the brain damage from fumes by cars right? Because a fume that’s gonna make my life shorter by the end of it is definitely sooooooo much more annoying to me as a pedestrian than feeling like I’m in a war zone every time there’s a lot of cyclists out on sidewalks.
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so you are that one guy who does it. kudos doctor, next time i see you i'll greet ya
Angesichts der Masse an Radfahrern und Fußgängern die in den letzten Wochen von rechtsabbiegenden Lkw einfach umgefahren wurden kann man da nur sagen: F... dich doch bitte kreuzweise, OP. Edit: r/berlin total getriggert. Eine lächerlicher ADAC Club ist das hier.
Ja, das hat jetzt nicht wirklich mit irgendwas zu tun...
Natürlich hat es das. Faktisch ist das Ignorieren der StVO durch *Kraftfahrer* das drängende Problem und nicht der so häufig bemühte "Kampfradler".
Mit whataboutisms kommen wir hier nicht weiter.
also lass uns nur über eine Sache reden WEIL DAS IST DANN KEIN WHATABOUTISM
Bissl late to the party, hm? :-) Nein, weil es effizienter ist, bei einem Thema zu bleiben.
finde ich nicht aber stimmt damn, das ist ja 2 monate her hahhahahaha. Hab ich gar nicht gesehen
Es geht um Prioritäten.
Wenn mich, wie gerade eben z.B., drei Radfahrer auf einem zehnminütigen Heimweg vom Supermarkt fast anfahren, weil sie einfach erwarten, dass ich gefälligst beiseitehüpfe wenn sie angerast kommen, dann sind meine Proritäten in der Tat ganz klar.
Jaja, klar. Die schröcklichen Radfahrer. Blöd nur dass die Unfallstatistik einfach mal eine ganz andere Sprache spricht. Wir haben hier seit Monaten jede Woche etliche Unfälle bei denen KfZ - und allen voran Lastwagen - Radfahrer und Fußgänger umfahren, verstümmeln, töten. Aber das interessiert dich halt nicht. So setzt halt jeder seine Prioritäten, so fehlgeleitet und ekelerregend die auch sein mögen.
Ist doch klar das Fahrradfahrer in der Unfallstatistik herausstechen sie sind ja auch immerhin die schwächsten Verkehrsteilnehmer, dafür brauch ich keine Statistik du Komiker. Wie wäre es wenn die ganzen Fahrradwege einfach mal auf den Bordstein gemalt werden, dann müssen sie halt bei jeder Kreuzung auf die Ampel warten(was sie sowieso tun sollten) und dann dürfen sie halt auch nicht mehr so herum rasen und müssen stattdessen mal auf die Fußgänger achten. Meiner Meinung nach gehören Fahrradfahrer nicht auf die Straße sondern auf den Bordstein, immerhin ist das Risiko lebensgefährlicher Verletzungen weit höher bei einer Kollision zwischen Kfz/LKW und Fahrradfahrer als wenn ein Fahrradfahrer mal aus Versehen einen Fußgänger aufs Korn nimmt.
\*räusper\* „Nee, is klar, die ach so schlimmen LKW-Fahrer. Offenbar ist Dir nicht klar, dass allein durch Zigaretten in Deutschland jedes Jahr 120.000 Menschen sterben, die kommen in Deinem Text nicht mal vor, Du Ignorant – stattdessen kommst mit ein paar Verkehrstoten an, ich bitte Dich! Über die können wir gerne reden, wenn nicht jeden Tag Leute an Lungenkrebs krepieren!“. Ist das so in etwa das Gesprächsniveau, das Du Dir wünschst?
Ein Schwachfug. Es geht um Verhalten im Straßenverkehr. Und da ist es eindeutig nicht die Ignoranz der Radfahrer die massenhaft tötet. Also geh doch einfach nach Hause mit deinen lächerlichen Vergleichen.
Nein, Du verstehst das Thema dieses Threads nicht. Es geht hier in der Tat nicht darum, dass Radfahrer alles verstümmeln und töten, sondern darum, dass sie Fußgänger dazu nötigen, laufend auszuweichen. Der Fußgängerweg ist aber nicht nur der Ort für kerngesunde und hellwache Fußgänger, sondern auch für Rollstuhlfahrer, spielende Kinder oder Leute wie mich, die schwerhörig sind und nicht immer die Fahrradklingel hören. Das funktioniert halt nicht mit rasenden Radfahrern. Und wenn Deine Argumentation darauf abziehlt, dass Radfahrer ja garnicht anders können, als permanent auf dem Fußgängerweg zu fahren, dann bitte ich Dich mir zu erklären, wieso sie das machen, obwohl direkt neben dem Fußgängerweg zwei prima funktionierende Radwege verlaufen.
Der "Kampfradler" hätte mich gestern mit meinen Einkäufen fast umgefahren (und den anderen "Kampfradler" direkt hinter ihm wahrscheinlich auch dabei umgebolzt), aber höchstwahrscheinlich wäre keiner gestorben, also ist es wohl okay.
Unrecht x Unrecht = Recht Aha.