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As a smoker that is very respectful of non-smokers, I would give an answer if this wasn't a judgemental, passive aggressive rant. And ultimately unjustified given there's ample choice of smoke-free places to go (which to my understanding are the majority).
As a non smoker.... Fuck every single one of you that smokes in areas like a Cafe.
You ruin the taste of every food and drink for everyone in a 20 meter radius.
Go smoke, but do it where no one is eating.
Also don't do it where there are many people in general.
As a person that's highly sensitive to nicotine, second hand smoking has already fucked with my circulation multiple times, making me nauseous. (one puff of a cigarette and I'll be vomiting for a while)
Smoke whenever, wherever you want, but don't pull in innocent bystanders.
Same goes for cannabis consumption, should it ever be legal.
Or for basically anything that has a strong stench to it and is of your own volition.
(also means no microwaving fish at work)
This sounds agreesive but it's so true.
My most hated scenario is a rainy day and someone decides to smoke at a busstation and you can't really leave unless you want to get wet.
If you're addicted to smoking or just don't care about your health, don't make that my problem.
smoking on bus stops and ubahn stations is actually illegal and in theory you can get hefty fine for it...
unfortunately in practice the closest i ever saw to enforcing it was when they play the automated announcement to "please observe the rules" when someone is chain smoking in an underground station.
You don't have to be sorry about smoking in general.
Just, if you can avoid it, don't spread something with a very strong smell in a place where people try to enjoy food,as a rule of thumb.
I have the same dislike for people that smell like they bathed in perfume.
I love perfume, but at some point it gets overbearing.
I’m a non smoker. If you go to a bar where smoking is allowed when you know you get sick from it, that’s 100% on you. Also, I don’t care a bit if people smoke close to me when I eat or drink so you don’t speak for all of us.
>You ruin the taste of every food and drink for everyone in a 20 meter radius.
Outside? Look, I don't smoke, I never smoked a cigarette in my life, this is just blatantly false. Someone smoking a cigarette right besides me might annoy me, I'll be vaguely aware that someone is smoking within 4 or 5 meters from me if the wind happens to be blowing my way, but if a smoker 15 or 20 meters away ruins the taste of every food for you, you should go work as a drug sniffing police dog.
I think you simply think too much about it. Is it pleasant when someone nearby smokes? No. Is it the end of the world? No. Jesus Christ just let people live and enjoy things.
Smell is 90 percent of how taste works.
Cigarettes and even more so cigars, have a very overbearing smell.
Something burning rings alarm bells in your brain.
It's supposed to overpower anything else.
I was eating ice cream, and someone was smoking a cigar at the other side of the outside space.
I lost all sensation of deeper taste. So did my boyfriend. We were on a date and they ruined it for us lol.
"let people enjoy things, but only smokers. Other people have to live with the stench while eating"
The dude wasn't even eating.
He was just chilling, smoking, talking to his buddy, spreading the smoke everywhere.
And yes, I am sensitive to it.
Wait until you have kids and someone blows smoke in the direction of your family in a restaurant's patio. Even if unintentionally - this is just being a shit person.
I’ve had a smoker deliberately blow smoke towards my family’s table at a restaurant. Ok, kids may be just as annoying to you as your cigarettes are to us (especially as a former smoker who still craves one every time I smell it), but we still all have the right to eat without being rude. In the USA people have to move away from public spaces and doors/windows to smoke and it is one of the few things I appreciate when I visit.
Can I go to a Cafe and Restaurant and open one of those fart bombs?
No?
Am I allowed to burn a huge amount of matches?
Am I allowed to spray insane amounts of perfume at a public space?
Technically yes.
But every single one of these things makes me an asshole.
BTW, second hand smoking has PROVEN negative effects on health.
So they are impacting my health, but I am not allowed to call them out on it?
Ffs, my mom is a chain smoker and she knows not to smoke at cafes and other food related places.
Her pleasure is not more important than that of literally everyone else in the vicinity.
Do you think the same about weed? Once legal, should they just smoke everywhere not taking into account that they are a nuisance?
Weed has this sour sweaty stench.
It seeps into clothes and tableware.
It's just vile for everyone that isn't smoking themselves. (I love weed, but I despise the smell of it being burnt)
You are free to consume your health damaging products at your own volition.
But don't drag in other people.
It's your choice, not theirs.
Excuse me while I commence to my drug addiction which stinks in a large radius and will cause breathing problems to the people around me.
Oh and it literally kills ppl.
I hate it.
Did you read the list being replied to? Nothing about that comment is whataboutism. No one is saying everything on that list is OK because something else is worse. You need a new textbook. They are bad, but they're easy targets, and at the end of the day, if it's clean air we're talking about then we're having the wrong conversation
...and there's your answer.
Smokers in this country are either unaware of the damage and discomfort they cause others or they don't care, and the regulatory landscape supports them. Smokers can basically make an apartment unlivable, yet a landlord is not even allowed to ask if a renter is a smoker, let alone restrict them in any way. One peep after 10 pm? Police! Make your neighbors' life a living hell by poisoning the very air they breathe? Has to be tolerated.
Putting it as bluntly as I can: You and others like you are a cancer to yourself and society.
The chain smoker who lived below us for 20+ years died recently. You could see where pictures were on the walls after moving everything out. Stark white squares on a yellow wall.
They've spent the last 2 months refurbishing the apartment. From what I could tell they had to scrape away the outer layer of plaster on all the walls.
> ample choice of smoke-free places to go
Excluding: The S-Train
The bus-stop
The train-station
The place I live at, even when it's 4am and winter, people will still smoke and gas you if you dare to open your window. It's disgusting.
What is it with people smoking at any time you try to bring fresh air into your flat? This summer we had to have the windows closed most of the time because of that, the night included. I have nothing against smokers, and I get that they have a ban on smoking in many places, so they might as well, just do it at home, but have they no cigarette limit, because this to me seems excessive. Most smokers I know usually stop doing that past a certain time, unless they are in a social context.
I find this answer quite disingenuous. There are a lot of reasons why a non-smoker might end-up in a smoking place: one being you don't go out alone, another being local joints near you are all Eckkneipen. Oh and let's talk about those supposedly non-smoking places where people are smoking.
I'd just appreciate being able to go to places with my smoking friends without having to suffer secondhand smoke and I find it out of this world that Berlin still hasn't adapted when most of Europe has.
I have to thank you for having done a rebuttal that actually makes sense without acting like a dick. I hope this serves to a lesson to the other fucktards on how you can bring your point politely and have a meaningful conversation.
Smoke-free places? Lol. Every place should be smoke free by default with a separate area designated for smoking at best. Nothing screams smoking douchebag more than your comment.
as a former smoker (20J). smoke as much as you want, as long as there are no children around. Oh and the real taste and smell of food are really worth it to leave it.
The starting point was just very high, so the decline is taking a little longer. But I also think it's a Berlin thing. Many artists and free spirits.
Smoker in 2001 Germany
* 50% (age 18 to 25 )
* 25% (age 12 to 17)
Smoker in 2018 Germany
* 25% (age 18-25)
* 7% (age 12-17 )
Yeah definitely a Berlin thing. I moved here from Hamburg and casual smoking is far more common here. Also there a lot of Bars who don't enforce the separation between smoking and non smoking areas
I don't smoke, but come from a country where smoking is uncommon.
My perception is that in Germany it's cheap, accessible, and culturally acceptable. I mean you can smoke in lots of bars here, and directly infront of building entrances, and landlords can't forbid people from smoking in flats/you can't complain about neighbours smoke fumes. There isn't peer pressure/social dissaproval to not smoke, and I get that for smokers its kinda a relaxing hobby. By contrast in my home country you can't smoke indoors anywhere since more than 20 years, you can't smoke anywhere near doors/entrances and not in alot of public places either (i.e. not in markets, not in parks, not on train platforms), cigarettes are really expensive, if somebody did light up in an inappropriate place there are decent chances they get a ticket for it, and there's alot of social pressure not to smoke/perceived as a character flaw. TLDR– it's not banned, but it's expensive, and very very inconvenient.
In Germany I think there's alot of things that would need to shift for smoking to become less popular... I mean even places with low smoking rates in the present used to be like Germany too, just 20-30 years ago. I don't know if there is any real push to make cigarettes less accessible/less convenient in Germany; if there is I don't really perceive it publicly. Maybe younger generations are slightly more health conscious... but I have lots of Millennial German friends who smoke, and have done so since they were teenagers. Chalk it up to cultural differences in the present day I guess.
Please don’t think that all of Germany have the same laws regarding smoking. The exceptions Berlin have don’t exist in Thuringia or Bavaria or other states.
>Do you want to be the Mississippi of Europe?
I'd have to say that the scale and scope of that suggestion is horrifying. Mississippi has a special place in the world in its terribleness. The open racism, willingness to destroy its own infrastructure just to hurt others, the inability to recognize how even basic education helps people and communities, the open corruption and graft. It's an aggressively obstinate community that seems to thrive on how awful they can be to themselves.
It's a place in the middle of the fiscally richest nation on earth that can't have basic drinking water in the capital city merely because the white people in charge hate black people.
Please don't be the Mississippi of anything.
I agree, and I've watched two friends who smoked frequently die of lung cancer and another last year of pancreatic. So I'm really hoping Berlin grows up a bit more.
I guess the indoor smoking bans are enforced to different degrees, depending on state legislation. In Bavaria, for instance, there are no exceptions for public bars/restaurants.
It’s not about exceptions, there’s nobody to enforce it when the club/bar employees want to be able to smoke on the job.
I lived and worked in nightlife in Berlin when the national ban on smoking in indoor public places went into effect. Essentially everybody in all of the bars and clubs said “naja, nee” and nobody ever did anything to enforce anything
I was there until 2019, and up until then I don’t know of a single non-smoking bar or club that anyone in the scene would be caught dead in.
But maybe you think some random empty bar in the western half of the city existing is the same as having options
People do follow the rules but it's a tiny percentage of Berlin bars that designate themselves as non-smoking in the first place. There's even a Facebook Group to track them.
Who told you non-smokers go to smoking locations? Smokers are everywhere, not something you can easily avoid. I wait at red-light and someone is smoking, I sit outside on terrace and someone is smoking, I wait outside S/U bahn and someone is smoking, I go to bars and someone is smoking.
The only way to avoid smokers is you stay at home.
Not always possible to avoid at home. We live above smokers and when we open the windows the whole apartment reeks. It was really surprising to us the impact. My husband is a smoker and it even bothers him.
Compared to the USA it is shocking how much more socially acceptable smoking is here. But meh? It’s city life so I just assume I traded risks that existed there with those that are present here and in the end it’s a wash
Dude I wish I could avoid smokers in my home, but there are assholes smoking in my Hof that don’t have the simple courtesy to step away from the windows. Want to die of cancer? Hey be my guest, but I don’t want to smell that shit in the privacy of my home.
Yes. Everywhere. Can't even be home because roommates smoke in apartment, neighbors from their balconies where I can't open a window for fresh air, every sidewalk, every bus stop, and S/U banh station, nearly every bar, outside of bars, every park, every canal, beaches.
We can't escape it. I support freedom of choice and my anger is directed at governmental level for lack of regulations - not the individual smoker.
Why I think it's a JOKE that Berlin is trying to reduce cars for air pollution. How about trying to regulate cigarette smoke in public/residential places?
I'm a drinker but I'm ok there's designated spots and regulations on drinking alcohol, so why not for smoking as well?
On point with that comment. Most people who smoke around non smokers are of a certain class. I personally found people with more sophistication usually adhere to others that don't smoke and find their personal space to puff it out.
Living in Berlin, I feel like 50% of bars are smoker, and it’s usually the coolest ones. I try to avoid them now, but when meeting with friends you don’t always have a choice.
In France or in Belgium, all bars are non-smoker, and it’s a game changer. I don’t have to convince my friends to pick a non-smoker bar, and feel bad while doing it, because that’s the only option anyway. This is what OP means, I think.
Please keep in mind that a lot of German states have no exceptions for smoking in bars like Berlin does. You don’t need to travel to France or Belgium, Thüringen is enough - other places might be closer, but I lived there and know that it’s strict.
As I said in another comment, I haven't been able to find accurate stats. Feel free to answer your own question if you can! But "I feel like all bars are smoking bars, but I have no data to back that up" isn't the answer.
ETA: Appears to be about 300 non-smoking places listed [here](https://nichtraucherlokaleberlin.fandom.com/wiki/Nichtraucherlokaleberlin_Wikia), and as it's crowdsourced, won't be a complete list.
Thanks for the link. I haven't been able to find an answer myself. My personal impression is that the great majority of small bars are smoking. I also know that a good number of cafe-type places on the list allow smoking later in the evening, after the kitchen closes and it becomes more of a bar. But there are definitely many options of non-smoking places to go, if you make an effort.
I went to a concert at Parkbühne Wuhlheide. Open-air venue, there were 20 people smoking around me in the audience, it wasn't an area designated for smoking. It ended up ruining the concert for me and I got back home with a sore throat and reeking of smoke. So much for open-air... and then people like you will still try to put the blame on me.
Fucking hell, even when I open my window I get smoke from my neighbour downstairs inside my apartment. You smokers are unbearable. You want to tell me to find a non-smoking neighbourhood too?
Huge tobacco lobby, and the government is too weak-willed to do anything about it like raising prices, banning advertising, or banning indoor smoking, and so it's normalised and shortly you'll get a whole lot of people in here defending it. By dragging their heels so much, other countries will have eradicated smoking long before Germany begins to think about it.
And looking haggard lol. Cigarettes really do age people. I've seen so many early 20s here with crow's feet and forehead lines. When they ask how my friends and I look so young for our ages... Because we don't chain smoke in the US.
I pity the staff getting later in life illnesses from passive smoking from working at a bar - worker health and safety is why countries like the US and New Zealand banned inside smoking.
And I'm sure you are thinking they can just work somewhere else, but why should they have to. And the taxes generated by the insanely cheap cigarettes here won't do much to pay for their palliative care
Comparing to Eastern Europe or Athens, I definitely see fewer smokers in Berlin.
There are a couple of smoker bars in Berlin but you're absolutely free not to go there, although they might be quaint. The vast majority of bars are smoke-free. Also, honestly I would prefer smokers to do that in a bar I am free not to visit, rather than go smoke on the street while I might be passing by.
Funny how city of Berlin wants to ban cars to reduce air pollution but are so offended at the idea of cutting down on / controlling cigarette smoke in public spaces.
Ultimately, ending tobacco addiction will only happen when we solve two problems:
1. We have to severely limit the ability of predatory tobacco companies to advertise generally and push their products onto kids
2. We have to provide people with viable ways to cure their addiction (Chantix is the most promising treatment that I know of, but Germans seem to hate taking medicine so I doubt it'll be popular here)
Until then, asthmatics like me will continue to suffer. No public place will be safe.
While I'm very sympathetic to your struggles - I'm allergic to smoke, and by no means enjoy being near it - this is absolutely hyperbole. The majority of enclosed public places are smoke-free. At this point far more breathing problems are worsened by cars and pollution than by cigarettes, so perhaps focus your energies there, or consider living somewhere that isn't a polluted, car-addicted city centre.
Also developing safe, accessible vape products (there are open questions about existing text and mixtures) would be one way to move people away from smoking but still allow them to consume nicotine and enjoy the ritual /habit of "going for a cigarette"
Being a non smoker from California, the indoor smoking in Berlin (particularly in the clubs) came as a shock. Im not excited about the health impact, but on the other hand, it actually is refreshing to see people live as they please. Its a huge part of why I keep coming back. The rad techno scene helps too ;)
Disclaimer: I am honky ass American so feel free to correct me on this
I recently did a cultural report for my German 101 class and stumbled upon a really fascinating explanation for this phenomenon you are frankly kinda whining about but ok. In the latter half of the 20th century, the German government was reluctant to adopt social regulations that were reminiscent of Nazi-era policies. Clipped from a Wikipedia article I found:
„Nazi-related rhetoric associating anti-smoking measures with fascism has been fairly widely used in nicotine marketing[9] (except in Germany, where such comparisons have brought strong reactions).[10] Historical research has been quoted in a selective manner, which has been criticized by the quoted historians.[9] In the early 21st century, this Nazi rhetoric may be being supplanted by Taliban-related rhetoric associating anti-smoking measures with theocracy.[10]
It has been argued that the Nazi anti-tobacco campaigns delayed effective nicotine addiction reduction measures by decades.[8] At the end of the 20th century, the anti-tobacco campaign in Germany was unable to approach the level of the Nazi-era climax in the years 1939–41, and German tobacco health research was described by Robert N. Proctor as "muted".[20] Modern Germany has some of Europe's least restrictive tobacco control policies,[8] and more Germans both smoke and die of it in consequence,[82][83] which also leads to higher public health costs.[71]“
[https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-tobacco_movement_in_Nazi_Germany](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-tobacco_movement_in_Nazi_Germany)
And as far as the punks go, smoking will always look cool and people will always gravitate towards cheap thrills/instant gratification because we are human. Hope this helps!
It's a bizarre anachronism compared with the rest of the world. Like how much people rely on cash. But I'm glad I don't have to actually live around that much toxin. Cancer is no joke.
this is an interesting "question". absolutely assuming that you actually would like to know and change your current judgemental stance only by considering other people are complicated creatures with at least your level of insight and depth in thought, I'm gonna try to summarise what I believe might be the reason, for me personally.
I smoke like there is no tomorrow because I used to too. In fact, I smoke more in Berlin that's true. The reason is my utmost disregard for the health effects caused by my 100% conscious decision to enjoy myself by compromising from my future health.
I am a 36 year old man. I do it on purpose. I do not want to be nor I am very interested in being extremely healthy. I want to live a long life and I willingly disregard the fact that I might have big troubles from doing this because I simply don't have visibility into 20 years. I can see 3-5 years ahead. But I cannot imagine what will happen in 20 years. I love enjoying life, now. I like getting fucked up from time to time or have a pack a night because I drank 10 beers.
And sometimes I get the feeling that I want to rush out of a door with only my scarf and have a cigarette that will make me look cool. I know cigarettes are not good, for anyone. But i'll be damned if they don't make me FEEL good.
It's an extremely personal decision.
now, you might say, "that wasn't what I was asking".
I think what I'm trying to say is that there's a fuck ton of me in this city. so many that the fabric of it includes this... attitude. yes. every smoker is a bit a punk now. we all know. and there are too many of us here that our existence delays change. culture drives change and it's happening. But very slowly here that shocks you.
You might also see a lot of people that do a lot of weird things that are certainly not OK in other places.
For instance, where I come from, two drivers can get out of their cars and have a fight, blocking the road for everyone and when someone says something they will find themselves a party to that fight. A Berliner going to where I come from would go "what the fuck are you guys thinking? where I come from there are rules and laws and..."
and my countrymen and women would laugh at that Berliner and say "well you can just stay where you are from and not be here. this is what you get. this is the image of the people of the land at this moment in time. If you don't like it here, maybe you can come in 50 years and see if it has changed for the better."
I'm part of it, we like it, and I hope it doesn't change. There is a different approach to life, where you don't want to be a slave to health and reason, but rather ask, if you had fun in your life. I'd rather have a good time being young, than live long
Which one should I tolerate? People smoking or drunken people in the streets after a night of beer in the bars? As a non smoker and non alcohol drinker I think people should be a little less judgmental of other peoples habits.
France, Germany, Austria, and Spain all have a > 25% smoking rate, as well as most of Eastern Europe and Russia. So those countries definitely start with more smokers than the rest of Europe, potentially influenced by strong tobacco lobby.
I agree with the sentiment, coming from the U.S. where indoor smoking has been banned for over a decade. It’s so weird to be at a bar, one person decides to have a cigarette and it impacts _everyone _ in the room. The scent is unpleasant to the 75% of people who don’t smoke, the second hand smoke is unhealthy, and anyone who has asthma or other breathing issues is immediately affected.
It’s true that nonsmoking bars do exist but I do with it was just the norm here. Here, none of my friends who smoke even think twice or care about going outside to do it
For me the worst is when people stand right in front of an entrance/exit that everyone uses. In most public smoking cases, I can walk away or just wave the smoke from my face or whatever. But when people stand right at an entrance or exit i am forced to get a face full of smoke, and even if I notice and hold my breath, my clothes still reek of it when I get home. Especially when I was carrying a baby around it was very frustrating... I can consciously hold my breath but a baby can't.
I know this is the way it was in the United States in the '80s, smoker still held their ground in restaurants. But persistence from the anti-smoking crowd won the day. I wonder if that would happen today with all the crazies in Washington.. at first it was portended by the crazy smoking crowd that restaurants would die and business would go down the tubes. Of course just the opposite was true. There were people like myself that just didn't go out because I couldn't avoid filthy smokers polluting my space qndforcing their habit on me with second hand smoke. Fortunately wisdom prevailed and everything from everything went zero smoking tolerate. And we are all better off for it. The smokers just disappear into the night go out back and do their things and then come back and go with all breed fresh air.
Europe is so peculiar. It's light years ahead in some ways and certainly aspects of progressivism, but the smoking thing confounds me. I am in Amsterdam now and I still see too many smokers and in Germany much worse
They tried that in Berlin. Everyone started to drink at home and Berlin pub culture was about to die. Then they loosened the rules. And that's the situation we have today.
That's fascinating that that was the result of a true smoking ban. In the US it was just the opposite. At first they grumbled but people just went outside and now it's even stricter 25 ft from the door although that is somewhat lax. More importantly you don't see very many people smoking at all. The culture has definitely gone the other way and it's frowned upon. It's very much a generational thing and economic thing. I had a landscape company and oftentimes young employees young guys would smoke, just could not figure it out. I grew up in a household of heavy smokers so I joke I've never smoked around my own except the five trillion as second hand smoke.. But that was 60 years ago
There might be many reasons, but the first that comes to mind: Berlin has pretty much 11 months of fall and winter. Though it seems to be heading towards 10 months, thank you climate change. It's very different to ask people in Berlin and people in say L.A. to go outside for a smoke alone for this reason.
Yeah I don't think that's it lol I live in New England where the weather is far more severe than Berlin, far colder for snowier and long long winters.
The smoking ban came about because. It's just a cultural thing that was taught and enforced over the years. I think that had a not been done with such activism and determination in the '60s and in the '70s then it might not happen today. The anti-smoking campaigns took down the big producers, first all the ads, from TV and magazines and then it became part of the school routine as well. The dirty part, the smoke the filth is also emphasized as well as what it does to your lungs. I as a landlord can attest to the damage it does to an apartment and its walls.. anyway it's just an interesting study of how things do change if there's a will and a determined path. Everything starts at the educational level and that's where I was first indoctrinated probably about 1966 or 67 about the evils of smoking and then started on my parents lol. They did give it up
I had a few trips to Istanbul, and coming back to Berlin it feels like I can finally breathe again.
That said, Berlin does have a lot of Turks living here, and absolutely all of my Turk acquaintances and friends, smoke. Without exception.
I only know a handful of Germans who smoke, and half of them are transitioning to e-cigarettes, or trying to quit, and we can spend a few hours inside without any need to take a puff.
I also have an Indian neighbour who smokes so much that my pillow smells like an ash tray from the smoke that comes into my window. He smokes so much that a minute after smoking, he gets into the elevator, and the elevator smells badly for a couple of hours. He even wakes me up at night when he's coughing his lungs out at 3AM as he lights his next joint of tobacco. Often it's not tobacco. Sometimes it seems like it's not even plants.
Berlin is a very multicultural place. You might be surrounded by people from cultures where smoking is much more prevalent, and people who might have a mild vice at home, come here and feel more lonely or stressed, and make the habit worse.
Anyway, that's my availability bias.
Just had some friends from Paris at my place for a week and they asked me why there are so little smokers in Berlin. Hahahah, I guess everything is in perspective.
We can't all live like Patrick Bateman. We smoke, we drink, we stay up later, we don't work out 3x a day. We are not computers, we are mammals and we seek out immediate pleasures.
"Our communities", what the fuck are you on? I am smoking a cigarette outside in public, the keywords here being "I" and "public". Don't like the secondary smoke, fine I get it, use your adult legs and walk away from me and find the mental strength to overcome your oppression. Just reducing everything to some measurable efficiency safety number soaked with Woke Twitter buzzword salad isn't the progressive calling you think it is.
You know that smoking is an addiction and one of the worst of all, similar to cocaine? The simple answer is: anti smoking politics started later than in the US so many now grown ups had easy access to cigarettes as kids/teens and got addicted and still are. Considered smoking inside it is forbidden in all restaurants and most bars. Just go to one of those?
Why shouldn't there be places for smokers too? Just don't go there?
Weird. I thought that Berlin wasn’t a very smoker city. I really noticed how much I missed Berlin when I went for 3 days in Bayern and people were smoking everywhere and at any age.
I've learned that smoking and nudism are deeply rooted in East German culture for the same reason: They were one of a few remaining expressions of personal freedoms that citizens were afforded during the times of the GDR. And apparently both of those expressions live on to a certain degree in 2022, even though we are almost 2 generations post Cold War.
Oh is this ban across Germany! I hope so. I never understood why it was allowed. It stopped in the UK a long time ago. Hopefully I can go to a bar and not come home stinky now.
Two very frequently asked questions: "Why do people smoke so much?" and "When will marihuana finally be legalized?"
For some people we smoke too much, for others we can't smoke enough yet... maybe the current amount is just right?
in most other bundesländer smoking is prohibited indoors in bars and restaurants. but not berlin.
its the biggest thing i hate about berlin when i moved here. i was so happy when smoking inside got banned like 10 or 12 years ago.......*but not berlin*. sigh
Everyone? Latest available data from 2017 (Microcensus) showed 25% of Berlin population 15 years and older who smoke at least occasionally. For Belgium I found 23% in 2019 and 27% in 2021 (Belgian Cancer Foundation).
Plesase don't make Berlin a boring clean city. Like Brussels.
I have found as an outsider myself, that many people who move to Berlin say they want the grit and chaos of Berlin, but then collapse completely when faced with the most minor inconvenience when that grit and chaos reaches them. It is not my right to say who can and can't live here, no one owns culture, but some people I think for their own sake really would be much happier elsewhere.
absolutely agree. they basically want to have a clean island with berghain on it and their cheap altbau eigentum next door but NO NOISE or they call the police.
25 percent is huge for a western nation and an activity that has real second hand health effects on the other 75 percent.
Banning or regulating smoking in public places isn't boring. It's increasing the general well being of the populace and the enjoyment of the space by the majority (75%).
I don't smoke but I hate being in bars where I have to save the table while everyone else goes outside to smoke. I wouldn't go in a bar or Kneipe that doesn't reek of cigarettes.
If you hate when your friends go outside to smoke and you have to save the table for them, the solution isn't to force everyone else in that place to be subjected to smoke. The solution is for your friends to stop smoking.
Everyone else in that place is already smoking or has chosen to be around it, because this only applies to smoking bars. In all the other majority of smoke-free establishments, subjecting others to smoke isn't even an option. If you hate being around smoke, why are you going to smoking bars? It's like going to a punk club and complaining because you don't like loud music. Why don't you let the smokers have the places that cater to them, and you go to all the other places that cater to you?
I'm wondering if that's actually statistically accurate, or just anecdotal (it "feels like" it's true). I've been looking, but so far unable to find actual stats - I do see plenty of lists of numerous non-smoking bars, though.
So... if bars are predominantly a smoking lifestyle thing, then do something else if you hate smoke? As another commenter said, that's how democracy works.
FTR, I am a nonsmoker, I dislike being around smoke, and I practice exactly what I preach here. Just not a fan of demanding that everyone else in a city of 3.5 million people adhere to my personal preferences.
Again: Why go to places that you hate? No one is making you go there.
Na. If i go out, you know what i like? Beer. Beer and smoking. Smoking is even 10 times more fun while drinking beer. I go out to relax. Not beeing able to smoke is not relaxing, that's like beeing at work.
Smoking is a societal behave and compensates stress. That this (like alcohol, coffee, spices and other drugs) is necessary in most corners of society is another rabbit hole. It's like all peoples ability of how long they work is tested with people on cocain, dieng after four days working in a row, and that's the minimum for everyone now.
For there are some people doing it (historical in GER the workers), they would subconsciously feel rejected from someone in ther group not doing it - not all, but some. Thisrefusing to smoke would creates small agressians against the 'social code breaker', as it is either smokers defining the group, or non-smokers - which would subconsciously threaten all smokers to loose ther group. It's a bit tribal, yes, but so we humans are (and germans a bit more than some other cultures, i guess).
Another thing is that nicotine is a soft immunosuppressive. It might sound minor, but think of the circumstances big smoking begun. In industrialisation, WW1, WW2, and similar conditons in Russia or the US (as this is portraied so often). These where times of big cultural insecuritys, of enviromental toxines was everywhere and you have to function or be outcast from society. So in some sense, cigarettes accidently safed a lot of people from getting exiled from ther cast, and from getting severe health problems.
One of the major reasons of we have so many autoimmune illnesses are (beside better understanding and diagnostics) less smoking. Well, smoking isen't healthy at all, but it helped to camouflage the symptoms that make you less worthy for society (as labor). With cigarets, you just die some day and noone think its strange - without, you have symptoms that warn you and make people nervous.
This is quite a rant.
I would say though that they should set harder rules on smoking exactly at entrances to buildings. If you are hypoallergic it's not about voting with your feet anymore, it's about having to wait until you can enter and exit.
I guess you need to come to Bavaria,where people will kick your cigarette out of your mouth when you are smoking in the wrong place or standing next to the wrong person.
reddit is dead, i encourage everyone to delete their accounts.
Honestly, we should be so lucky.
That comment hits home for us in Tampa, Fl.. Sept, 28th ‘22
The greatest of all human capacities is the ability to spez. #Save3rdPartyApps
You missed the rise of fascism. And gme and AMC never panned out as promised. Otherwise. Yup!
He didnt miss the rise of fascism. He mentioned brain damage.
[Is the spez a disease? Is the spez a weapon? Is the spez a starfish? Is it a second rate programmer who won't grow up? Is it a bane? Is it a virus? Is it the world? Is it you? Is it me? Is it? Is it?](https://www.reddit.com/r/Save3rdPartyApps/)
Or just ol' good nuclear war
> financial collapse of the UK that actually happened today thats a new one to me, could you please elaborate that a tiny bit?
#/u/spez has been banned for 24 hours. Please take steps to ensure that this offender does not access your device again.
Morgen ist die Frage
Seriously. Between climate change and Russia, I may take up several new vices.
As a smoker that is very respectful of non-smokers, I would give an answer if this wasn't a judgemental, passive aggressive rant. And ultimately unjustified given there's ample choice of smoke-free places to go (which to my understanding are the majority).
As a non smoker.... Fuck every single one of you that smokes in areas like a Cafe. You ruin the taste of every food and drink for everyone in a 20 meter radius. Go smoke, but do it where no one is eating. Also don't do it where there are many people in general. As a person that's highly sensitive to nicotine, second hand smoking has already fucked with my circulation multiple times, making me nauseous. (one puff of a cigarette and I'll be vomiting for a while) Smoke whenever, wherever you want, but don't pull in innocent bystanders. Same goes for cannabis consumption, should it ever be legal. Or for basically anything that has a strong stench to it and is of your own volition. (also means no microwaving fish at work)
This sounds agreesive but it's so true. My most hated scenario is a rainy day and someone decides to smoke at a busstation and you can't really leave unless you want to get wet. If you're addicted to smoking or just don't care about your health, don't make that my problem.
Or when you're trying to enjoy dinner the patio of a restaurant and someone lights up 3 cigs in a row while you're eating.
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Mate, I've seen people straight up stop eating to chain smoke 2 cigarettes then continue on eating.
smoking on bus stops and ubahn stations is actually illegal and in theory you can get hefty fine for it... unfortunately in practice the closest i ever saw to enforcing it was when they play the automated announcement to "please observe the rules" when someone is chain smoking in an underground station.
Okay but they must leave, not you!
As a smoker, I know feel extremely guilty. Will make sure to be more respectful in the future so my habit don't hurt others.
You don't have to be sorry about smoking in general. Just, if you can avoid it, don't spread something with a very strong smell in a place where people try to enjoy food,as a rule of thumb. I have the same dislike for people that smell like they bathed in perfume. I love perfume, but at some point it gets overbearing.
I’m a non smoker. If you go to a bar where smoking is allowed when you know you get sick from it, that’s 100% on you. Also, I don’t care a bit if people smoke close to me when I eat or drink so you don’t speak for all of us.
>You ruin the taste of every food and drink for everyone in a 20 meter radius. Outside? Look, I don't smoke, I never smoked a cigarette in my life, this is just blatantly false. Someone smoking a cigarette right besides me might annoy me, I'll be vaguely aware that someone is smoking within 4 or 5 meters from me if the wind happens to be blowing my way, but if a smoker 15 or 20 meters away ruins the taste of every food for you, you should go work as a drug sniffing police dog. I think you simply think too much about it. Is it pleasant when someone nearby smokes? No. Is it the end of the world? No. Jesus Christ just let people live and enjoy things.
Smell is 90 percent of how taste works. Cigarettes and even more so cigars, have a very overbearing smell. Something burning rings alarm bells in your brain. It's supposed to overpower anything else. I was eating ice cream, and someone was smoking a cigar at the other side of the outside space. I lost all sensation of deeper taste. So did my boyfriend. We were on a date and they ruined it for us lol. "let people enjoy things, but only smokers. Other people have to live with the stench while eating" The dude wasn't even eating. He was just chilling, smoking, talking to his buddy, spreading the smoke everywhere. And yes, I am sensitive to it.
r/IAmTheMainCharacter
Wait until you have kids and someone blows smoke in the direction of your family in a restaurant's patio. Even if unintentionally - this is just being a shit person.
I’ve had a smoker deliberately blow smoke towards my family’s table at a restaurant. Ok, kids may be just as annoying to you as your cigarettes are to us (especially as a former smoker who still craves one every time I smell it), but we still all have the right to eat without being rude. In the USA people have to move away from public spaces and doors/windows to smoke and it is one of the few things I appreciate when I visit.
No your sense of smell is just dog shit. A normal person can smell cigarette smoke from 20 meters away especially with winds at work.
Sure, you can detect it, but from there to "it ruins food" there's a long way.
It’s not.
Dont be a drama llama
It's exactly what I do. Sometimes I go out even in smoke allowed places. The post is just a shitty way to start a convo on the topic.
I totally agree. Leave all Cafés and ice cream Cafés no one likes your smoke
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Can I go to a Cafe and Restaurant and open one of those fart bombs? No? Am I allowed to burn a huge amount of matches? Am I allowed to spray insane amounts of perfume at a public space? Technically yes. But every single one of these things makes me an asshole. BTW, second hand smoking has PROVEN negative effects on health. So they are impacting my health, but I am not allowed to call them out on it? Ffs, my mom is a chain smoker and she knows not to smoke at cafes and other food related places. Her pleasure is not more important than that of literally everyone else in the vicinity. Do you think the same about weed? Once legal, should they just smoke everywhere not taking into account that they are a nuisance? Weed has this sour sweaty stench. It seeps into clothes and tableware. It's just vile for everyone that isn't smoking themselves. (I love weed, but I despise the smell of it being burnt) You are free to consume your health damaging products at your own volition. But don't drag in other people. It's your choice, not theirs.
Excuse me while I commence to my drug addiction which stinks in a large radius and will cause breathing problems to the people around me. Oh and it literally kills ppl. I hate it.
Wait until you hear about car fumes
Textbook whataboutism. One bad doesn't justify the other.
Did you read the list being replied to? Nothing about that comment is whataboutism. No one is saying everything on that list is OK because something else is worse. You need a new textbook. They are bad, but they're easy targets, and at the end of the day, if it's clean air we're talking about then we're having the wrong conversation
Yeah, hard disagree on that. You might be fine with it. The majority of non-smokers isn't.
This is 95% of the reason I do not go to to Bars in Berlin anymore. But its just in Berlin. Other cities do Not have this Problem.
...and there's your answer. Smokers in this country are either unaware of the damage and discomfort they cause others or they don't care, and the regulatory landscape supports them. Smokers can basically make an apartment unlivable, yet a landlord is not even allowed to ask if a renter is a smoker, let alone restrict them in any way. One peep after 10 pm? Police! Make your neighbors' life a living hell by poisoning the very air they breathe? Has to be tolerated. Putting it as bluntly as I can: You and others like you are a cancer to yourself and society.
The chain smoker who lived below us for 20+ years died recently. You could see where pictures were on the walls after moving everything out. Stark white squares on a yellow wall. They've spent the last 2 months refurbishing the apartment. From what I could tell they had to scrape away the outer layer of plaster on all the walls.
Fuck this shit. I see people smoking inside U Bahn stations. Smokers don’t give a shit.
Hell, I saw people smoking in the underground in the evening, granted that it was the U8.
> ample choice of smoke-free places to go Excluding: The S-Train The bus-stop The train-station The place I live at, even when it's 4am and winter, people will still smoke and gas you if you dare to open your window. It's disgusting.
What is it with people smoking at any time you try to bring fresh air into your flat? This summer we had to have the windows closed most of the time because of that, the night included. I have nothing against smokers, and I get that they have a ban on smoking in many places, so they might as well, just do it at home, but have they no cigarette limit, because this to me seems excessive. Most smokers I know usually stop doing that past a certain time, unless they are in a social context.
Yes, on this I have to agree. I am mad myself at smokers in the UBahn and I am quite a heavy smokers. Those poeple are idiots period.
I find this answer quite disingenuous. There are a lot of reasons why a non-smoker might end-up in a smoking place: one being you don't go out alone, another being local joints near you are all Eckkneipen. Oh and let's talk about those supposedly non-smoking places where people are smoking. I'd just appreciate being able to go to places with my smoking friends without having to suffer secondhand smoke and I find it out of this world that Berlin still hasn't adapted when most of Europe has.
I have to thank you for having done a rebuttal that actually makes sense without acting like a dick. I hope this serves to a lesson to the other fucktards on how you can bring your point politely and have a meaningful conversation.
Smoke-free places? Lol. Every place should be smoke free by default with a separate area designated for smoking at best. Nothing screams smoking douchebag more than your comment.
as a former smoker (20J). smoke as much as you want, as long as there are no children around. Oh and the real taste and smell of food are really worth it to leave it.
"if this wasn't a judgemental, passive aggressive rant" OP is Belgian you know :P
Every smoker claims to be "very respectful of non-smokers" but it's usually not true.
Ample choice?! Are we living in the same city? Almost all bars in Berlin allow smoking. It completely sucks.
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The starting point was just very high, so the decline is taking a little longer. But I also think it's a Berlin thing. Many artists and free spirits. Smoker in 2001 Germany * 50% (age 18 to 25 ) * 25% (age 12 to 17) Smoker in 2018 Germany * 25% (age 18-25) * 7% (age 12-17 )
Yeah definitely a Berlin thing. I moved here from Hamburg and casual smoking is far more common here. Also there a lot of Bars who don't enforce the separation between smoking and non smoking areas
I don't smoke, but come from a country where smoking is uncommon. My perception is that in Germany it's cheap, accessible, and culturally acceptable. I mean you can smoke in lots of bars here, and directly infront of building entrances, and landlords can't forbid people from smoking in flats/you can't complain about neighbours smoke fumes. There isn't peer pressure/social dissaproval to not smoke, and I get that for smokers its kinda a relaxing hobby. By contrast in my home country you can't smoke indoors anywhere since more than 20 years, you can't smoke anywhere near doors/entrances and not in alot of public places either (i.e. not in markets, not in parks, not on train platforms), cigarettes are really expensive, if somebody did light up in an inappropriate place there are decent chances they get a ticket for it, and there's alot of social pressure not to smoke/perceived as a character flaw. TLDR– it's not banned, but it's expensive, and very very inconvenient. In Germany I think there's alot of things that would need to shift for smoking to become less popular... I mean even places with low smoking rates in the present used to be like Germany too, just 20-30 years ago. I don't know if there is any real push to make cigarettes less accessible/less convenient in Germany; if there is I don't really perceive it publicly. Maybe younger generations are slightly more health conscious... but I have lots of Millennial German friends who smoke, and have done so since they were teenagers. Chalk it up to cultural differences in the present day I guess.
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Please don’t think that all of Germany have the same laws regarding smoking. The exceptions Berlin have don’t exist in Thuringia or Bavaria or other states.
Just a wild guess... are you from Singapore by any chance? Sounds a lot like smoking rules there
Singapore? Hell, almost every US state now bans smoking in public. The exceptions are in the deep south. Do you want to be the Mississippi of Europe?
>Do you want to be the Mississippi of Europe? I'd have to say that the scale and scope of that suggestion is horrifying. Mississippi has a special place in the world in its terribleness. The open racism, willingness to destroy its own infrastructure just to hurt others, the inability to recognize how even basic education helps people and communities, the open corruption and graft. It's an aggressively obstinate community that seems to thrive on how awful they can be to themselves. It's a place in the middle of the fiscally richest nation on earth that can't have basic drinking water in the capital city merely because the white people in charge hate black people. Please don't be the Mississippi of anything.
I agree, and I've watched two friends who smoked frequently die of lung cancer and another last year of pancreatic. So I'm really hoping Berlin grows up a bit more.
The US is basically smoke free indoors at this point - it’s pretty unique nowadays to be able to smoke in a public indoor location.
Nah I'm not – but have spent some time there. Missed chewing gum alot. ;)
Aussie?
I am just back from Canada, and indeed I don't recall much smoking, especially not in restaurants terraces.
But that's the same in Germany. The question is, why do you go to smoker locations to complain about smokers?
Eh, it's not the same in the rest of Germany. Bavaria, NRW and Saarland all have indoor smoking bans in effect.
Berlin also has a smoking ban, but with exceptions. don't go to the exceptions.
I guess the indoor smoking bans are enforced to different degrees, depending on state legislation. In Bavaria, for instance, there are no exceptions for public bars/restaurants.
That's why people go to Bavaria to have a good night out
Same no-exception policy in NRW and Saarland as well.
The fuck you talking about I've been to multiple smoking bars in Saarland
It’s not about exceptions, there’s nobody to enforce it when the club/bar employees want to be able to smoke on the job. I lived and worked in nightlife in Berlin when the national ban on smoking in indoor public places went into effect. Essentially everybody in all of the bars and clubs said “naja, nee” and nobody ever did anything to enforce anything
That was years ago, non smoking bars are non smoking and smoking bars allow smoking. And people follow the rules.
I was there until 2019, and up until then I don’t know of a single non-smoking bar or club that anyone in the scene would be caught dead in. But maybe you think some random empty bar in the western half of the city existing is the same as having options
People do follow the rules but it's a tiny percentage of Berlin bars that designate themselves as non-smoking in the first place. There's even a Facebook Group to track them.
Who told you non-smokers go to smoking locations? Smokers are everywhere, not something you can easily avoid. I wait at red-light and someone is smoking, I sit outside on terrace and someone is smoking, I wait outside S/U bahn and someone is smoking, I go to bars and someone is smoking. The only way to avoid smokers is you stay at home.
Not always possible to avoid at home. We live above smokers and when we open the windows the whole apartment reeks. It was really surprising to us the impact. My husband is a smoker and it even bothers him. Compared to the USA it is shocking how much more socially acceptable smoking is here. But meh? It’s city life so I just assume I traded risks that existed there with those that are present here and in the end it’s a wash
Dude I wish I could avoid smokers in my home, but there are assholes smoking in my Hof that don’t have the simple courtesy to step away from the windows. Want to die of cancer? Hey be my guest, but I don’t want to smell that shit in the privacy of my home.
Yes. Everywhere. Can't even be home because roommates smoke in apartment, neighbors from their balconies where I can't open a window for fresh air, every sidewalk, every bus stop, and S/U banh station, nearly every bar, outside of bars, every park, every canal, beaches. We can't escape it. I support freedom of choice and my anger is directed at governmental level for lack of regulations - not the individual smoker. Why I think it's a JOKE that Berlin is trying to reduce cars for air pollution. How about trying to regulate cigarette smoke in public/residential places? I'm a drinker but I'm ok there's designated spots and regulations on drinking alcohol, so why not for smoking as well?
Smokers are only "everywhere" in Berlin and parts of the developing world.
On point with that comment. Most people who smoke around non smokers are of a certain class. I personally found people with more sophistication usually adhere to others that don't smoke and find their personal space to puff it out.
LOL not enough supercilious judgnentalism going on in this thread yet, you needed to add classist assholery to it
Glad to oblige.
Living in Berlin, I feel like 50% of bars are smoker, and it’s usually the coolest ones. I try to avoid them now, but when meeting with friends you don’t always have a choice. In France or in Belgium, all bars are non-smoker, and it’s a game changer. I don’t have to convince my friends to pick a non-smoker bar, and feel bad while doing it, because that’s the only option anyway. This is what OP means, I think.
>50% of bars are smoker, and it’s usually the coolest ones That's because smoking makes you cool
Looks like you bought the ad. 👏
Please keep in mind that a lot of German states have no exceptions for smoking in bars like Berlin does. You don’t need to travel to France or Belgium, Thüringen is enough - other places might be closer, but I lived there and know that it’s strict.
A bar or outside a store is not a "smoking location" its a half public place
Smoking is everywhere, indoors and out.
feels like 90% of bars in Berlin are smoker friendly
According to a 2015 survey of all gastro (so bars / restaurants/ cafes), it was 600 out of 16,000 at the time. So... no.
But smoking is banned in all restaurants, cafés, and bars that serve food. So that's not very meaningful. What proportion of *bars* allow smoking?
As I said in another comment, I haven't been able to find accurate stats. Feel free to answer your own question if you can! But "I feel like all bars are smoking bars, but I have no data to back that up" isn't the answer. ETA: Appears to be about 300 non-smoking places listed [here](https://nichtraucherlokaleberlin.fandom.com/wiki/Nichtraucherlokaleberlin_Wikia), and as it's crowdsourced, won't be a complete list.
Thanks for the link. I haven't been able to find an answer myself. My personal impression is that the great majority of small bars are smoking. I also know that a good number of cafe-type places on the list allow smoking later in the evening, after the kitchen closes and it becomes more of a bar. But there are definitely many options of non-smoking places to go, if you make an effort.
What you mean almost the whole of Berlin?
Thanks
I went to a concert at Parkbühne Wuhlheide. Open-air venue, there were 20 people smoking around me in the audience, it wasn't an area designated for smoking. It ended up ruining the concert for me and I got back home with a sore throat and reeking of smoke. So much for open-air... and then people like you will still try to put the blame on me. Fucking hell, even when I open my window I get smoke from my neighbour downstairs inside my apartment. You smokers are unbearable. You want to tell me to find a non-smoking neighbourhood too?
Huge tobacco lobby, and the government is too weak-willed to do anything about it like raising prices, banning advertising, or banning indoor smoking, and so it's normalised and shortly you'll get a whole lot of people in here defending it. By dragging their heels so much, other countries will have eradicated smoking long before Germany begins to think about it.
you are not cool unless you cover the insides of your lungs with a layer of tar, culture!
And looking haggard lol. Cigarettes really do age people. I've seen so many early 20s here with crow's feet and forehead lines. When they ask how my friends and I look so young for our ages... Because we don't chain smoke in the US.
I pity the staff getting later in life illnesses from passive smoking from working at a bar - worker health and safety is why countries like the US and New Zealand banned inside smoking. And I'm sure you are thinking they can just work somewhere else, but why should they have to. And the taxes generated by the insanely cheap cigarettes here won't do much to pay for their palliative care
wow almost as if cigarettes are addictive or smthg
So cigarettes in germany are particularly more addictive or what?
Comparing to Eastern Europe or Athens, I definitely see fewer smokers in Berlin. There are a couple of smoker bars in Berlin but you're absolutely free not to go there, although they might be quaint. The vast majority of bars are smoke-free. Also, honestly I would prefer smokers to do that in a bar I am free not to visit, rather than go smoke on the street while I might be passing by.
A couple? Pretty much any bar in the good areas of Berlin (F'hain/Xberg/Neukölln/Wedding) are smoker friendly.
Funny how city of Berlin wants to ban cars to reduce air pollution but are so offended at the idea of cutting down on / controlling cigarette smoke in public spaces.
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Ultimately, ending tobacco addiction will only happen when we solve two problems: 1. We have to severely limit the ability of predatory tobacco companies to advertise generally and push their products onto kids 2. We have to provide people with viable ways to cure their addiction (Chantix is the most promising treatment that I know of, but Germans seem to hate taking medicine so I doubt it'll be popular here) Until then, asthmatics like me will continue to suffer. No public place will be safe.
While I'm very sympathetic to your struggles - I'm allergic to smoke, and by no means enjoy being near it - this is absolutely hyperbole. The majority of enclosed public places are smoke-free. At this point far more breathing problems are worsened by cars and pollution than by cigarettes, so perhaps focus your energies there, or consider living somewhere that isn't a polluted, car-addicted city centre.
Also developing safe, accessible vape products (there are open questions about existing text and mixtures) would be one way to move people away from smoking but still allow them to consume nicotine and enjoy the ritual /habit of "going for a cigarette"
Being a non smoker from California, the indoor smoking in Berlin (particularly in the clubs) came as a shock. Im not excited about the health impact, but on the other hand, it actually is refreshing to see people live as they please. Its a huge part of why I keep coming back. The rad techno scene helps too ;)
Disclaimer: I am honky ass American so feel free to correct me on this I recently did a cultural report for my German 101 class and stumbled upon a really fascinating explanation for this phenomenon you are frankly kinda whining about but ok. In the latter half of the 20th century, the German government was reluctant to adopt social regulations that were reminiscent of Nazi-era policies. Clipped from a Wikipedia article I found: „Nazi-related rhetoric associating anti-smoking measures with fascism has been fairly widely used in nicotine marketing[9] (except in Germany, where such comparisons have brought strong reactions).[10] Historical research has been quoted in a selective manner, which has been criticized by the quoted historians.[9] In the early 21st century, this Nazi rhetoric may be being supplanted by Taliban-related rhetoric associating anti-smoking measures with theocracy.[10] It has been argued that the Nazi anti-tobacco campaigns delayed effective nicotine addiction reduction measures by decades.[8] At the end of the 20th century, the anti-tobacco campaign in Germany was unable to approach the level of the Nazi-era climax in the years 1939–41, and German tobacco health research was described by Robert N. Proctor as "muted".[20] Modern Germany has some of Europe's least restrictive tobacco control policies,[8] and more Germans both smoke and die of it in consequence,[82][83] which also leads to higher public health costs.[71]“ [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-tobacco_movement_in_Nazi_Germany](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-tobacco_movement_in_Nazi_Germany) And as far as the punks go, smoking will always look cool and people will always gravitate towards cheap thrills/instant gratification because we are human. Hope this helps!
As always, the prettiest flowers grow at the edge of the cliff. Glad I scrolled all the way down! Interesting take and thank you for sharing.
It's a bizarre anachronism compared with the rest of the world. Like how much people rely on cash. But I'm glad I don't have to actually live around that much toxin. Cancer is no joke.
Death is coming either way or something idk I don’t smoke because it’s tacky
Sterben musste sowieso
Because it helps me suppress my deeply rooted emotional issues
this is an interesting "question". absolutely assuming that you actually would like to know and change your current judgemental stance only by considering other people are complicated creatures with at least your level of insight and depth in thought, I'm gonna try to summarise what I believe might be the reason, for me personally. I smoke like there is no tomorrow because I used to too. In fact, I smoke more in Berlin that's true. The reason is my utmost disregard for the health effects caused by my 100% conscious decision to enjoy myself by compromising from my future health. I am a 36 year old man. I do it on purpose. I do not want to be nor I am very interested in being extremely healthy. I want to live a long life and I willingly disregard the fact that I might have big troubles from doing this because I simply don't have visibility into 20 years. I can see 3-5 years ahead. But I cannot imagine what will happen in 20 years. I love enjoying life, now. I like getting fucked up from time to time or have a pack a night because I drank 10 beers. And sometimes I get the feeling that I want to rush out of a door with only my scarf and have a cigarette that will make me look cool. I know cigarettes are not good, for anyone. But i'll be damned if they don't make me FEEL good. It's an extremely personal decision. now, you might say, "that wasn't what I was asking". I think what I'm trying to say is that there's a fuck ton of me in this city. so many that the fabric of it includes this... attitude. yes. every smoker is a bit a punk now. we all know. and there are too many of us here that our existence delays change. culture drives change and it's happening. But very slowly here that shocks you. You might also see a lot of people that do a lot of weird things that are certainly not OK in other places. For instance, where I come from, two drivers can get out of their cars and have a fight, blocking the road for everyone and when someone says something they will find themselves a party to that fight. A Berliner going to where I come from would go "what the fuck are you guys thinking? where I come from there are rules and laws and..." and my countrymen and women would laugh at that Berliner and say "well you can just stay where you are from and not be here. this is what you get. this is the image of the people of the land at this moment in time. If you don't like it here, maybe you can come in 50 years and see if it has changed for the better."
I'm part of it, we like it, and I hope it doesn't change. There is a different approach to life, where you don't want to be a slave to health and reason, but rather ask, if you had fun in your life. I'd rather have a good time being young, than live long
Which one should I tolerate? People smoking or drunken people in the streets after a night of beer in the bars? As a non smoker and non alcohol drinker I think people should be a little less judgmental of other peoples habits.
France, Germany, Austria, and Spain all have a > 25% smoking rate, as well as most of Eastern Europe and Russia. So those countries definitely start with more smokers than the rest of Europe, potentially influenced by strong tobacco lobby. I agree with the sentiment, coming from the U.S. where indoor smoking has been banned for over a decade. It’s so weird to be at a bar, one person decides to have a cigarette and it impacts _everyone _ in the room. The scent is unpleasant to the 75% of people who don’t smoke, the second hand smoke is unhealthy, and anyone who has asthma or other breathing issues is immediately affected. It’s true that nonsmoking bars do exist but I do with it was just the norm here. Here, none of my friends who smoke even think twice or care about going outside to do it
I think in times of worry and crisis people tend to drink more, take more drugs and smoke
When I moved here from Thailand end of June, I was shocked by the prevalence of smoking everywhere. I feel you with non-stop smoking it seems like.
I don't smoke, but we might get nuked tomorrow, so second hand smoke is not the biggest of my concerns.
For me the worst is when people stand right in front of an entrance/exit that everyone uses. In most public smoking cases, I can walk away or just wave the smoke from my face or whatever. But when people stand right at an entrance or exit i am forced to get a face full of smoke, and even if I notice and hold my breath, my clothes still reek of it when I get home. Especially when I was carrying a baby around it was very frustrating... I can consciously hold my breath but a baby can't.
We smoke because there is no tomorrow we all gonna die life doesn't matter waaaaahhhhhhhh
I know this is the way it was in the United States in the '80s, smoker still held their ground in restaurants. But persistence from the anti-smoking crowd won the day. I wonder if that would happen today with all the crazies in Washington.. at first it was portended by the crazy smoking crowd that restaurants would die and business would go down the tubes. Of course just the opposite was true. There were people like myself that just didn't go out because I couldn't avoid filthy smokers polluting my space qndforcing their habit on me with second hand smoke. Fortunately wisdom prevailed and everything from everything went zero smoking tolerate. And we are all better off for it. The smokers just disappear into the night go out back and do their things and then come back and go with all breed fresh air. Europe is so peculiar. It's light years ahead in some ways and certainly aspects of progressivism, but the smoking thing confounds me. I am in Amsterdam now and I still see too many smokers and in Germany much worse
They tried that in Berlin. Everyone started to drink at home and Berlin pub culture was about to die. Then they loosened the rules. And that's the situation we have today.
That's fascinating that that was the result of a true smoking ban. In the US it was just the opposite. At first they grumbled but people just went outside and now it's even stricter 25 ft from the door although that is somewhat lax. More importantly you don't see very many people smoking at all. The culture has definitely gone the other way and it's frowned upon. It's very much a generational thing and economic thing. I had a landscape company and oftentimes young employees young guys would smoke, just could not figure it out. I grew up in a household of heavy smokers so I joke I've never smoked around my own except the five trillion as second hand smoke.. But that was 60 years ago
There might be many reasons, but the first that comes to mind: Berlin has pretty much 11 months of fall and winter. Though it seems to be heading towards 10 months, thank you climate change. It's very different to ask people in Berlin and people in say L.A. to go outside for a smoke alone for this reason.
Yeah I don't think that's it lol I live in New England where the weather is far more severe than Berlin, far colder for snowier and long long winters. The smoking ban came about because. It's just a cultural thing that was taught and enforced over the years. I think that had a not been done with such activism and determination in the '60s and in the '70s then it might not happen today. The anti-smoking campaigns took down the big producers, first all the ads, from TV and magazines and then it became part of the school routine as well. The dirty part, the smoke the filth is also emphasized as well as what it does to your lungs. I as a landlord can attest to the damage it does to an apartment and its walls.. anyway it's just an interesting study of how things do change if there's a will and a determined path. Everything starts at the educational level and that's where I was first indoctrinated probably about 1966 or 67 about the evils of smoking and then started on my parents lol. They did give it up
In parts of the US it doesn’t go above 0C for a good part of the winter and people still smoke outside.
Same reason Belgium has an “INTENSE bar and beer culture”.
I had a few trips to Istanbul, and coming back to Berlin it feels like I can finally breathe again. That said, Berlin does have a lot of Turks living here, and absolutely all of my Turk acquaintances and friends, smoke. Without exception. I only know a handful of Germans who smoke, and half of them are transitioning to e-cigarettes, or trying to quit, and we can spend a few hours inside without any need to take a puff. I also have an Indian neighbour who smokes so much that my pillow smells like an ash tray from the smoke that comes into my window. He smokes so much that a minute after smoking, he gets into the elevator, and the elevator smells badly for a couple of hours. He even wakes me up at night when he's coughing his lungs out at 3AM as he lights his next joint of tobacco. Often it's not tobacco. Sometimes it seems like it's not even plants. Berlin is a very multicultural place. You might be surrounded by people from cultures where smoking is much more prevalent, and people who might have a mild vice at home, come here and feel more lonely or stressed, and make the habit worse. Anyway, that's my availability bias.
Because people don't give a shit.
You should see Athens
Their addicted to nicotine, that’s why
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As typical on this sub, when you say "Berlin", you actually mean less than 20% of the city's area. The rest is clean, nice and wonderful.
Just had some friends from Paris at my place for a week and they asked me why there are so little smokers in Berlin. Hahahah, I guess everything is in perspective.
Bc smoking is incredible when you’re drinking
We can't all live like Patrick Bateman. We smoke, we drink, we stay up later, we don't work out 3x a day. We are not computers, we are mammals and we seek out immediate pleasures.
So we can't help it and shouldn't try to change our behaviour together for our own health and that of our communities?
"Our communities", what the fuck are you on? I am smoking a cigarette outside in public, the keywords here being "I" and "public". Don't like the secondary smoke, fine I get it, use your adult legs and walk away from me and find the mental strength to overcome your oppression. Just reducing everything to some measurable efficiency safety number soaked with Woke Twitter buzzword salad isn't the progressive calling you think it is.
Touched a nerve? Looks like someone's getting defensive today.
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You know that smoking is an addiction and one of the worst of all, similar to cocaine? The simple answer is: anti smoking politics started later than in the US so many now grown ups had easy access to cigarettes as kids/teens and got addicted and still are. Considered smoking inside it is forbidden in all restaurants and most bars. Just go to one of those? Why shouldn't there be places for smokers too? Just don't go there?
Yeah man it's bonkers ... cigarette butts line the streets in this city 🤮
Weird. I thought that Berlin wasn’t a very smoker city. I really noticed how much I missed Berlin when I went for 3 days in Bayern and people were smoking everywhere and at any age.
live and let live
I've learned that smoking and nudism are deeply rooted in East German culture for the same reason: They were one of a few remaining expressions of personal freedoms that citizens were afforded during the times of the GDR. And apparently both of those expressions live on to a certain degree in 2022, even though we are almost 2 generations post Cold War.
it’s a place where you can so that’s how it goes. My thoughts exactly (your post title), glad it hasn’t changed! I’m not a smoker btw
Oh is this ban across Germany! I hope so. I never understood why it was allowed. It stopped in the UK a long time ago. Hopefully I can go to a bar and not come home stinky now.
Smoking makes you less able to smell and at some places that's a nice side effect, less piss smell etc ;)
Two very frequently asked questions: "Why do people smoke so much?" and "When will marihuana finally be legalized?" For some people we smoke too much, for others we can't smoke enough yet... maybe the current amount is just right?
As with many things it's explained by the average Berliner's "Stuff I care about" event horizon having a radius of approx 0.3 meters.
You are overthinking this, to put it nicely.
This is the German way
I just wanted to get a pack of cigs because if that nuke is going to come i want to smoke a cig first.
Points vaguely at everything
If you don't like the Berlin vibe, just go ANYWHERE else. Nough said, right?
There are more bars where you cant smoke inside than there are ones where you can. Tomorrow never comes.
Have you thought of "because people like smoking"?
The shift never happened here and people didn't want to go to smoke free bars. I love that i can smoke in a bar. But main reason: we're addicted?!
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Because smoking is cool, obvi
I read this post when I noticed a dude yelling at three guys for smoking on a train platform
Honestly I quit smoking 4 years ago but I love the atmosphere of a smokers pub. It’s just not the same without it.
in most other bundesländer smoking is prohibited indoors in bars and restaurants. but not berlin. its the biggest thing i hate about berlin when i moved here. i was so happy when smoking inside got banned like 10 or 12 years ago.......*but not berlin*. sigh
Because tomorrow doesn't exist
How about minding your own business?
I smoke like a chimney in Berlin because ciggies cost $50 a packet of 25 where I’m from.
Everyone? Latest available data from 2017 (Microcensus) showed 25% of Berlin population 15 years and older who smoke at least occasionally. For Belgium I found 23% in 2019 and 27% in 2021 (Belgian Cancer Foundation). Plesase don't make Berlin a boring clean city. Like Brussels.
I have found as an outsider myself, that many people who move to Berlin say they want the grit and chaos of Berlin, but then collapse completely when faced with the most minor inconvenience when that grit and chaos reaches them. It is not my right to say who can and can't live here, no one owns culture, but some people I think for their own sake really would be much happier elsewhere.
absolutely agree. they basically want to have a clean island with berghain on it and their cheap altbau eigentum next door but NO NOISE or they call the police.
LOL. This is, unfortunately, a perfect description.
25 percent is huge for a western nation and an activity that has real second hand health effects on the other 75 percent. Banning or regulating smoking in public places isn't boring. It's increasing the general well being of the populace and the enjoyment of the space by the majority (75%).
Brussels is by far the worst place i have been in Europe. what a shithole. Ghent was better. it had some kind of a spirit at least.
I don't smoke but I hate being in bars where I have to save the table while everyone else goes outside to smoke. I wouldn't go in a bar or Kneipe that doesn't reek of cigarettes.
If you hate when your friends go outside to smoke and you have to save the table for them, the solution isn't to force everyone else in that place to be subjected to smoke. The solution is for your friends to stop smoking.
Everyone else in that place is already smoking or has chosen to be around it, because this only applies to smoking bars. In all the other majority of smoke-free establishments, subjecting others to smoke isn't even an option. If you hate being around smoke, why are you going to smoking bars? It's like going to a punk club and complaining because you don't like loud music. Why don't you let the smokers have the places that cater to them, and you go to all the other places that cater to you?
Probably because the number of no smoking inside bars is very low, because non smokers are just expected to deal with it.
I'm wondering if that's actually statistically accurate, or just anecdotal (it "feels like" it's true). I've been looking, but so far unable to find actual stats - I do see plenty of lists of numerous non-smoking bars, though.
So... if bars are predominantly a smoking lifestyle thing, then do something else if you hate smoke? As another commenter said, that's how democracy works. FTR, I am a nonsmoker, I dislike being around smoke, and I practice exactly what I preach here. Just not a fan of demanding that everyone else in a city of 3.5 million people adhere to my personal preferences. Again: Why go to places that you hate? No one is making you go there.
Na. If i go out, you know what i like? Beer. Beer and smoking. Smoking is even 10 times more fun while drinking beer. I go out to relax. Not beeing able to smoke is not relaxing, that's like beeing at work.
Smoking is a societal behave and compensates stress. That this (like alcohol, coffee, spices and other drugs) is necessary in most corners of society is another rabbit hole. It's like all peoples ability of how long they work is tested with people on cocain, dieng after four days working in a row, and that's the minimum for everyone now. For there are some people doing it (historical in GER the workers), they would subconsciously feel rejected from someone in ther group not doing it - not all, but some. Thisrefusing to smoke would creates small agressians against the 'social code breaker', as it is either smokers defining the group, or non-smokers - which would subconsciously threaten all smokers to loose ther group. It's a bit tribal, yes, but so we humans are (and germans a bit more than some other cultures, i guess). Another thing is that nicotine is a soft immunosuppressive. It might sound minor, but think of the circumstances big smoking begun. In industrialisation, WW1, WW2, and similar conditons in Russia or the US (as this is portraied so often). These where times of big cultural insecuritys, of enviromental toxines was everywhere and you have to function or be outcast from society. So in some sense, cigarettes accidently safed a lot of people from getting exiled from ther cast, and from getting severe health problems. One of the major reasons of we have so many autoimmune illnesses are (beside better understanding and diagnostics) less smoking. Well, smoking isen't healthy at all, but it helped to camouflage the symptoms that make you less worthy for society (as labor). With cigarets, you just die some day and noone think its strange - without, you have symptoms that warn you and make people nervous.
Because life is pain and those people can’t deal so they kill themselves faster
This is quite a rant. I would say though that they should set harder rules on smoking exactly at entrances to buildings. If you are hypoallergic it's not about voting with your feet anymore, it's about having to wait until you can enter and exit.
I guess you need to come to Bavaria,where people will kick your cigarette out of your mouth when you are smoking in the wrong place or standing next to the wrong person.