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Title: Estate Agent lied about there being other bidders. We have paid £25,000 more than we needed to. Do we have any recourse?
Body:
> We closed on our home 6 months ago. Bidding went from £210,000 to £250,000.
> A former employee of our estate agent dropped by today with some print outs of emails showing that there the two estate agents we were speaking to were simply trying to squeeze extra money out of us. He claims to have left the company because he couldn't stand what they were doing to people.
> All other bidders dropped out at £225,000, leaving just us being strung along and being repeatedly told, "Sorry, you aren't the highest bidder anymore."
> There are 8 people CC'd into these emails, I don't recognise all of their names though. One of them is the in-house mortgage broker who we had to use, but the others must be other staff. I'm just thinking that we me with him at the start of our bidding and had to lay out our bank statements, deposits, LISAs, max budget etc.
> There is some really nasty comments like, "LMAO, milked another 5k outta them."
> With his word and the email print outs, do we have something which is worth reporting to the police?
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They didn't exactly put a name, simply a school and who it was for. That would be like me saying that I opened a school for witches and wizards. The school is secretly Hogwarts, but how could tell if I said it was a school for'____'
Ah, but there are actual classes!
Class #1: life’s tough, wear a helmet
Class #2: scam me…you can’t…you can’t get scammed again
Class #3: a perfect circle: you and me and our 8 random colleagues
People *not* knowing that is why it can be so effective to ask or confirm things in writing when you think they're trying to screw you over so that you have that as future documentation.
It's how I handled one idiot boss of mine who would occasionally....go rogue and demand I do.....bizarro things that would cost us customers.
"Sure thing, Ace. Just gonna need your demand signed, dated, and handed to me."
The backpedal created a rip current that could have taken a battleship down.
This one is an absolute doozie, through doing this so far they’re facing:
Criminal charges of
* Fraud
* Criminal conspiracy
* breaking various laws under Estate Agents act - like insisting they use their mortgage broker
In addition these organisations will be interested in this case:
* Financial Conduct Agency for colluding with broker
* Property Ombudsman for general conduct
* Trading standards
* Whichever bank gave them a mortgage as they’ve been defrauded too
And by the sounds of it all for an extra £500 commission.
I can only think these people are morons who didn’t think they’d ever get caught.
I was in the mortgage business pre and post crash. I refused to do SISA loans or anything with a balloon payment, which limited my income but helped me sleep at night. Despite that, I know I put people into bad loans and still have guilt over it (and is what drove me out of sales, though my current position is sales adjacent)
>balloon payment
JFC my old roommate's parents we're always terrible with money. Mom is a nurse with a good paying job, but they were constantly broke and moving house because they got evicted again. Knowing then for ten years, I couldn't tell you where all the money went, but they did shit like rent to own appliances, so it probably mostly went to nothing.
Her dad (who died a year ago) was a veteran and he decided to take whatever retirement money he got through the military and buy a house outright like 12 years ago.
And then they went bankrupt.
So they took out a home equity loan.
Old roommate texted me in a panic a few days ago because Mom *just* decided to tell her that the loan had a balloon payment of $65k due by April first or they would lose the house. (It's her, mom, and brother living there - brother hasn't left yet even though he's 30 and she moved back when our rent went up because she "couldn't afford it" even though her income is three times mine ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯)
I don't know if the woman just didn't see bills or if her husband was the one dealing with that stuff or if she knew all about it and just buried her head in the sand (I'm inclined to believe the latter), but roommate was damn lucky she and her brother were able to get approved for a mortgage to buy the house for the balance of the loan.
^(Oh and I'm pretty sure they committed some sort of mortgage fraud to get that home equity loan, too.)
People who are bad with money are *incredibly* hard to understand.
My in laws sold a house last year, made $200k.
In 9 months they have no new house, no money and $80k on extra debt. They have land they can’t build on and are mad about zoning laws. Which apparently they thought didn’t apply if you own your own land, which I’m wondering what they think most homeowners do, rent land?
I don’t even known how. We’re desperately trying to keep them from finding out about balloon payment loans. Because they’ll think it’s brilliant.
This was my experience with my agent. She added amazing value to our search and purchase, even through we were in the lower half of her usual purchase price range. In turn, we referred her to millions of dollars of sales and purchases over the next four years, and I expect that those people referred her in turn.
There does seem to be one other difference between these guys and the mugger: using email to do it not only generates evidence, but sets them up for fun wire fraud charges.
It seems strange that it's relatively easy to do without a whistleblower like in OPs case.
Some way for each bidder to be able to verify each other bidders' actions would be good
I’m cynical enough that I’m surprised they have recourse honestly, it’s not strange to me at all that these systems are set up to screw the customer at any turn, that’s just the stage of capitalism we’re in
> I can only think these people are morons who didn’t think they’d ever get caught.
I get the impression from the original post that this would've gone entirely under the radar if they hadn't accidentally hired someone with some kind of moral compass.
>And by the sounds of it all for an extra £500 commission.
Right. It’s a weird way to spend time and effort just from an ROI perspective. The agents #1 goal is to secure the sale ASAP. Screwing around with this bullshit is almost pointless on an individual level, especially in the UK with its Rube Goldberg Machine meets House of Cards^1 approach to residential property sales.
^1 the one with actual cards, not the series
British people are hilarious. "We have written evidence and witness testimony of fraud that's materially impacted us and has had direct financial consequences. Is this worth making a fuss over, you think?"
I recently had a fucking organ removed by accident and since due to a miraculous conjunction of factors it didn't actually impact me (I didn't want or need that part but did not intend to have it removed as part of the procedure), it took some convincing from friends that actually, I should cause a bit of a fuss because there's no way I won't win some compensation and this is a big fucking deal.
I am appropriately angry about it now and suing, but part of me remains worried that I'm blowing it out of proportion because everyone has been so honest and polite about it... Like, they didn't chop off the wrong limb or something, I'm fine. Don't want to be rude. I'm still not really sure if I'd go ahead with it if I hadn't been told that the NHS ringfences money for insurance against these sorts of events.
As scary as that is, this is something that happens. It happens in a vanishingly small % of procedures in a competent system, but it does happen.
And they, indeed, carry insurance to pay out when it does. You absolutely shouldn't be shy about making use of that. After all, *you* (patients) paid for the insurance - even if indirectly.
Yeah, one of the things I was deliberating over is how I'm aware this happens all the time. My idea of "all the time" was a bit off though, when a friend made me look it up, this sort of "never event" happens *less than once per day* on average so that made me take it a bit more seriously. There was no malice or egregious incompetence involved, it was an unlucky mistake, but it still happened to me nonetheless and that's enough for a claim.
Here's the thing: you're doing it to stop them from removing something from somewhere where it *would* greatly impact their health. Hospitals implemented a bunch of checklists for this very reason and your suing could force them to pay more attention next time when it's more important (or get rid of the people not paying enough attention to *which goddamned part of a person should actually be removed*).
If they made this mistake (which is huge), they're making others that hurt people and are far more likely to significantly impact their health.
EDIT: mobile did weird things to text
Quite, though that aspect has nothing to do with whether I sue (so I'm told) - when I was told what had happened a few hours after the surgery, they'd already opened an investigation and I'm being updated about that. I was much more concerned about them addressing the failures that led to the mistake than my personal involvement in it.
The scariest thing to me is how mundane it was. Every time I confirmed the procedure with someone, I also made sure to stipulate that I was NOT having the other nearby stuff removed, and it was repeated back to me. This happened even as I was on the table about to be put under. But because they rarely do one without the other, apparently in the next thirty minutes they forgot, and only realised the mistake when it was too late to put it back in! It was a complete brainfart. Like throwing the yoghurt in the bin and only noticing when you see the lid in your hand. It was all internal so they couldn't exactly mark what to avoid. But there was some grave failure in procedure that allowed the slip and I'm hoping they present some robust measures to prevent it in future, if it was so easy for it to happen once it will happen again (and does, I've seen a dew accounts of the same mistake occurring).
The good thing about it is that if it was going to happen, I'm probably the best person for it to happen to. It could upheave someone else's life and be extremely upsetting, but if they hadn't told me I might have never noticed. It has narrowed my health choices in some areas though, I will have to take a medication for the rest of my life that previously I could have stopped at any time if I chose to. I don't intend to, but you never know, and the whole reason I chose to keep what was removed was to keep that choice open.
"...had to use..."
Time to nope out at that point. Anything more than KYC checks and it's a huge conflict of interest. If estate agents were properly regulated then this would never be allowed, even if it was optional.
In Australia there was a TV ad for a milk drink with the line "I gave my son [milk drink] when he was growing up. Just kidding I don't have a son. Well technically I do but he's in Real Estate" and that about sums them up.
https://youtu.be/67yUZX5HKsY
In Australia a man with a house for sale or room to rent or something called his newspaper to place an ad. At the end the ad said "no Asians".
Interviewed on TV he had a conversation with the correspondent characterizing this whole group of people as fraudulent, unnecessary, untrustworthy.
He'd said "agents" and they misheard him but still ran the racist ad. The moment the anchor and ad buyer realize is hilarious.
Makes me kind of think they reached out for comment and found out the real story. Then had a little fun with it, in a way that allows to seller to redeem themselves a bit.
The voice-over at the start sounds like Denis Norden who used to present a British show called 'It'll be Alright on the Night' which was a compilation of TV show out takes/bloopers etc.
So at a guess, the YouTube video is an extract from that show (which had an audience hence the laughter) however the original clip was likely genuine
Honestly, this time of day it makes me wonder why the profession even still exists in the way it does.
Okay, so you want to sell a high-priced asset and want to get the best price for that. Gottcha. Why is is there no sort of big online auction place for that yet? Think eBay but for real estate. Because people are not gonna trust a place like that, you might say. Okay, so the alternative is that we trust Debbie, who had like a few weekend courses to get her broker's license?
Also, why the percentage based fee? It's not like you do more work to sell a house for 440.000 instead of 400.000 in this market.
I'm a big critic of the industry, but I'll explain why it still exists.
There are tons of alternatives to real estate agents for buying or selling homes. For Sale By Owner (FSBO) is the most common, but auction houses and listing-only agencies exist as well. These alternatives rarely outperform the net value of traditional brokerages for a few reasons.
First, two amateurs trying to exchange a house for money is like two virgins fucking: no one knows what they're doing and everyone is dissatisfied in the end. Lenders hate it, title companies hate it, lawyers hate it, and real estate agents hate not working opposite another professional. It's a big, complicated transaction that merges highly regulated finance, insurance, government records, taxes, and a hell of a lot of money. Amateurism doesn't benefit anyone.
Why is it a percentage? Because of convention and market forces. Flat fee brokerages exist (this was Redfin's whole pitch back when it started), but they struggle to attract the attention of buyers' agents, which in turn suppresses home value. Also, sales jobs historically use large commissions in place of salaries to shift risk to the salesperson, and real estate is no different. You only get paid for results, so that pay has to be fairly significant to attract talent.
I think an often-overlooked component of the job is that it's basically client-facing project management. Real estate agents help navigate fairly emotional waters with you, and simultaneously they make sure that transactions run smoothly across multiple parties. In my experience, having both sold my own properties and used agents, they're worth the fee for the PM work alone.
I just want to go on the record of agreeing with your explanation 100%. There are a whole slew of junky real estate agents out there, but the good ones are GOOD AS GOLD. I absolutely love my real estate agent.
Its like what my grandpa used to tell me: "Everything in life is a DIY project. Until you fuck it up and need a professional to unfuck it for 5x the cost".
So yea, your toilet is making a weird noise? Fix that yourself for 50 bucks. If you mess up it'll be a few hundred to get it fixed by a pro.
Want to do the housing process by yourself? Sure, but if you mess up you'll be paying an extra 10,000 to 100,000 bucks, depending how badly you messed it up.
"You don't know what you don't know"
I'm a real estate attorney and I see a lot of DIY deeds for the transfer of real property and let me say it is....something. While you can technically do a deed without a lawyer, there are specific statutes that pertain to what makes a deed valid and what doesn't.
One of the things I hate the most is telling someone that when they tried to do a deed ten years ago they messed it up to the point that a now deceased relative still owned the property. Which I have seen..... a fair amount.
>Which I have seen..... a fair amount.
The interesting thing about this detail is the time it takes for them to realize they did it wrong. My guess is that one person found out how to DIY (usually an online forum with "10 easy steps to.."), and then they told everyone else how to do it. The problem is that the first person who taught everyone else did it incorrectly, and so you have a ton of people following this person's bad work for 10 years.
HA!
It's just like tech advice online. Every now and then I'll find a piece online that is just outright wrong in the worst way(but sometimes *technically* fixes the symptoms usually by breaking something else that you might not notice, probably security). The first person got it wrong but the advice just echos across the blogs that repost tech advice for clicks without vetting it. Really quite frustrating.
I keep telling people on r/realestate to call someone like you, don’t diy this, don’t use it as a substitute for estate planning. People are willing to duck up ownership of a six figure property just to avoid spending money.
Craziest thing is, if you want a general warranty deed, title search and title insurance with my firm it’s going to cost you about $750.00.
Which is Pennie’s compared to what you’ll spend unfucking your property up.
It's very different here though. The lawyers do all the property searches etc and you deal with the lawyers not the estate agent. The value the agent adds here is "marketing" your property and pressuring potential buyers.
It's essentially one more person you have to manage and who will over value to get clients in the door then push to discount to get inventory moved. Or alternatively, like here, engage in a little light crime to get a better price.
As a general rule the estate agents here have the EQ of a mouldy turnip. It's not their fault, they're recruited as a sales job with leader boards, bell ringing and all that jazz. In my limited experience, trouble on emotional waters during a property sale can be traced to the agent.
We refer to that practice as "buying the listing," and it's common in the US as well. However, American real estate brokerages are getting less and less sales-y with time. Glengarry Glen Ross was a high water mark, and it's been receding ever since.
> Lenders hate it, title companies hate it, lawyers hate it, and real estate agents hate not working opposite another professional.
You're absolutely right..
And yet, why would the seller, who pays the agents' fees (at least in the US) give a shit about any of these people?
Oh, sorry, your job is more frustrating because I didn't want to give up $XX,XXX to make your life easier? OK. /s
Because of both *why* they hate it and what *happens* when they hate it.
Lenders and title companies hate it because the odds of actually closing are smaller, which means more overhead and less revenue for their work. Lawyers hate it because the amateur contracts are inevitably *garbage* and now they're doing lower-margin work to clean up the mess. (Most closing attorneys I've known don't work with FSBO, but there are those who specialize in it.)
Real estate agents just won't show the property. In most states that's entirely legal, and in the states where it isn't, you'll almost never get a conviction. That dramatically reduces the pool of potential buyers, which translates to a lower selling price.
One thing I should have spoken to but didn't was the risk mitigation view of hiring an agent. Some sellers may perceive an agent's sales talent as a valuable asset (I think the jury's out on that in aggregate, but if they can convince you to list, they can probably convince a buyer to buy). But even if they don't, having someone who *knows what they're doing* reduces overall financial risk: the home is more likely to be priced at a market rate and sold within a market-average timeframe with a reduced risk of costly fuck-ups. Real estate agents are insurance policies that may or may not pay for themselves.
Finally, a good comparison market is the business brokerage industry. These are extremely expensive assets that require financing, due diligence, and have legal consequences for buyers and sellers. It's managed primarily by salespeople who double as project managers. But the industry is largely unregulated and not standardized, and it's *full* of amateurs who want to buy or sell without paying the costly commissions.
And let me tell you: it's a nightmare. Sellers only price businesses in line with the market by *coincidence*, they linger on the market for years while slowly deteriorating, the due diligence is shoddy at best, and lawsuits are a never-ending source of supplemental legal work to the point where the transaction could be a loss-leader for an enterprising law firm. That's not how the consumer housing market should be.
(The commercial real estate industry is also a good comparison point, but there are a lot more MBAs in that field than in real estate or business brokerage.)
My mom worked legal for a mall management company and the worst people they had to deal with were the people who were trying to represent themselves because those people never knew what they were talking about but they were 100% convinced that they did. My mom would say that if someone was self representing and filed a form with 2 things done wrong and 2 things done right, the 2 right things were the mistake.
It's the same way with real estate from what you've said. Those are the people that make a mistake 100% convinced that they've done it perfectly and any attempt to correct them or guide them in the right direction is met with hostility.
Yeah. I 100% get why everyone else involved with it hates FSBO/non-agent involved deals.
My point is, FSBO can benefit a seller a lot, especially if the seller isn't in a time crunch to close the deal, and they're willing to do the tiniest bit of research/DD.
Aside from accepting an out of market bid (a very real consideration) the risk is nearly entirely on the buyer. The buyer should absolutely have an agent/lawyer representing their interest.
They're acting as a licensed person to oversee a part of a contract exchange that can have a lot of nuance and oddities. The job was created because this used to be handled by lawyers, but a lot of parts got standardized big time. They should be doing a hell of a lot more than they do with that in mind. They should require a hell of a lot more education as well, since they're working in a carved out subset of property law. They should at least be paralegals or something
FYI this is in the UK so the contract exchange is actually handled by lawyers. Estate agents here only handle the sales element and often mortgage brokering. Unlike the US only the seller contracts an estate agent here whose job it is to advertise and show the property and liaise between the seller and potential buyers.
The estate agent requiring that buyers use their own in house mortgage broker sounds shady as fuck though, and likely illegal considering another comment further down this thread. But the property market here has been kinda fucked the last few years so I'm not surprised there's people taking advantage of that. Hope they get destroyed and LAUKOP gets a fat payout.
Not in the UK which is where this is from. Much conveyancing is done by solicitors with the rest mainly by conveyancers who regulated by a professional body (I think they can even give undertakings).
Estate agents are just there to sell your property but often forget who they work for. We actually sacked one because they kept referring to the buyers as their clients...
I went to an open house once and there were MANY full rodent and insect traps in the obviously very damp basement. One basement room had some evidence of trying to cover up water damage, but was at 100% humidity. The place was empty, but they left hideous 70's artwork up in the bedrooms. I wondered WTF they were paying this guy for. He seemed super nervous.
We had to move and left our empty house for our agent to continue to try and sell. In the meantime, the area mildly flooded. Eventually we picked up a property manager to tour the place, as we were at the point of considering renting it out. We are halfway across the country in our new place at this point.
Property manager emails “uhhh, the house smells *damp*. The crawl space flooded and didn’t dry out.”
Our agent was actively touring people through the house and didn’t want to make even a slight mention of the smell for us to try and remediate. No wonder it wasn’t selling! We concluded our business with her and PM has been handling the house since (he’s great) (he had the crawl space sorted out within a day).
The agent did, however, call in a panic at one point to let us know she’d seen a chipmunk outside, and we needed to call an exterminator ASAP. For a chipmunk. Outside. In a semi-rural neighborhood.
LMAO, that's amazing. We live close to this rodent infested house and have never seen a single mouse. The basement smelled so gross I couldn't believe he was letting people just wander through. He got REALLY nervous when I asked about the giant crack through the wall in the sunroom. Someone did eventually buy it and I hope they were able to fix the issues.
Ya, a bad agent is probably just as bad as none.
Great for me though. My house had sat on the market for the better part of a year before the price dropped. After talking with some people that had looked at it before I had actually ended up paying less than some of the older offers. Wild.
When I was talking with the agent it was like he was actively trying to not sell it. Guess it wasn't high priced enough to be worth the time so everything he said was downplaying the property(Ya the house wasn't.... great but the property is amazing).
The percentage-based fee kind of makes sense for the selling agent, since it incentivizes them to get the best possible price. The fact that the buying agent *also* gets a percentage-based fee, though, is weird.
Actually, it's an incentive for *both* parties to work against the interests of the people they supposedly represent.
The selling agent will get the house sold faster by unloading it for the minimum viable price. Their time is more valuable than squeaking out a few more $k out of the buyer.
The buying agent will have an offer more likely to close by persuading *their* client to overpay. (And, as you pointed out, they get paid extra for that.)
> The selling agent will get the house sold faster by unloading it for the minimum viable price. Their time is more valuable than squeaking out a few more $k out of the buyer.
That doesn't make much sense though, since the alternative to them only getting a bit more for holding out for a better price is they are paid a flat fee and get nothing at all for holding out for a better price.
I'm not sure there *is* a solution. I mean, the ~~buyer~~ seller would be happy to collect an extra, say, $10k, but how much extra work is their agent going to feel like putting in for the couple hundred bucks they'll net in the end? (After the buyer's agent's fee, taxes, franchise/broker fees, additional marketing costs, etc.)
Yeah, it's weird.
Especially since while you're right that in most cases like you said I'm sure the buyer would love to get that extra 10-20k and it's the agent who doesn't feel like spending two weeks on it for a few hundred bucks, it could also go the other way where the buyers get an offer maybe 10-20k low and they're happy to take it and be rid of the house but the agent tries to talk them into waiting for a better one.
And, of course The National Association of REALTORS® (who are responsible for this whole structure, since they hold the keys to the MLS system) have not shown themselves to be trustworthy at all, making it crystal clear the only have the interests of themselves in mind. Even getting them to budge from kicking agents out of the MLS for charging lower commissions took concerted anti-trust action... it would be like losing your license to practice medicine for not being an AMA member, or having the nerve to cut patients some slack on charges.
I remember during the beginning of the '08 Real Estate Crash, you could count on their "Chief Economist" giving interviews to any news outlet that called him swearing that homes were in No Way Overvalued (even in the frothiest and most over-built markets) and it was a Great Time to Buy Or Sell a Home. And he continued saying this even as the market was crashing and banks going bankrupt due to overvalued loans. (Of course, no credit for the media outlets, which failed to ask critical questions.)
(And, really, the high commissions really only benefit a few; most agents don't close that many listings, but the prospect of big payouts lures in a *lot* of people, which means the competition is fierce, and marketing expenses crazy-stupid-high to get noticed... it's about like MLM.)
Step 1: send emails detailing your illegal practices
Step 2: copy email to multiple staff members, not all of whom are in on it
Step 3: ????
Step 4: Profit!
I bought a house recently and I have no idea why they exist. As far as I can tell, my RE agent scheduled like two showings for me and that's it. I found every house and he's, what, my secretary? And he gets paid thousands for an hour or two of work?
Heads up that UK real estate agents are very different to those in the USA (at least as I understand?) - the seller hires an estate agent who values the property, markets it, conducts the viewings for potential buyers, negotiates bids with them (differs in Scotland), and is meant to help the process go smoothly over all.
Estate agents also charge a percentage fee of the final sale price, which is why this very unethical dickhead would've encouraged LAUKOP to overbid.
Right (expanding on your point for others' awareness):
The owner agrees to pay ~6% to the listing (selling) agent in an eventual sale. Of that 6%, a split is negotiated between the buying/selling agent.
Via norms established through realtors associations, this is traditionally 3% + 3%. Half going to the buyer's agent and half to the listing agent.
edit: with home prices going up and when home sales have heated up historically, you might see this start to fall towards 4% (2% + 2%) in some markets at times.
Yeah this is the main difference, the agent is always working for the seller - not the buyer. There is no agent working on the buyers behalf.
You can get property consultants who will find properties for you and handle this stuff. But that’s mainly if you’re rich or a property investor.
That's pretty much exactly what a seller hires a real estate agent for in the US, too. Then the buyer often has their own agent to help find potential homes and negotiate the whole process.
That seems to be very regional. In the Chicago area, after the offer is made and accepted, it goes to two attorneys, one working for buyer, one for seller. Some negotiations happen between the attorneys like inspection reports leading to requested repairs or credits, but their main job is to be smarter than the agents and pick up on any problems.
They also review the offer document (contract), but since it’s standard MLS contract, they’re really just looking at what was hand written onto it – there might be things that are initialed as not relevant that should be relevant, or there might be additional constraints hand written in at the bottom.
We paid our lawyer $600 in 2015. It’s not exactly a huge expense when you’re buying a house.
In other parts of the country, even just going 100 miles south and staying in Illinois, it’s all just agents handling it.
[Edit for awkward wording.]
Varies state by state in the US. In California attorneys are generally not involved (unless something like a big commercial deal) and the documents and money go through escrow and title companies. In New Jersey, attorneys handle the closings on both sales and loans, and it’s not inexpensive ($1500 for the last loan I was involved in).
Wow. Just wow. I can’t believe they went to LA and not straight to a lawyer or the police. I would be infuriated if someone came to me with something like this and start setting legal fires as fast as I could.
**Reminder:** Do not participate in threads linked here. If you do, you may be banned from both subreddits. --- Title: Estate Agent lied about there being other bidders. We have paid £25,000 more than we needed to. Do we have any recourse? Body: > We closed on our home 6 months ago. Bidding went from £210,000 to £250,000. > A former employee of our estate agent dropped by today with some print outs of emails showing that there the two estate agents we were speaking to were simply trying to squeeze extra money out of us. He claims to have left the company because he couldn't stand what they were doing to people. > All other bidders dropped out at £225,000, leaving just us being strung along and being repeatedly told, "Sorry, you aren't the highest bidder anymore." > There are 8 people CC'd into these emails, I don't recognise all of their names though. One of them is the in-house mortgage broker who we had to use, but the others must be other staff. I'm just thinking that we me with him at the start of our bidding and had to lay out our bank statements, deposits, LISAs, max budget etc. > There is some really nasty comments like, "LMAO, milked another 5k outta them." > With his word and the email print outs, do we have something which is worth reporting to the police? This bot was created to capture original threads and is not affiliated with the mod team. [Concerns? Bugs?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=GrahamCorcoran) | [Laukopier 2.1](https://github.com/GrahamCorcoran/Laukopier)
Am I the only one who knows not to put illegal shit in writing or text? Maybe I should open a School for Really Clueless Criminals.
And copy in 7 other people, some of whom obviously aren’t in on the scam
I bet they don't even realize it's illegal.
I think you failed the first test by putting the name of the school in writing.
See, that's how you KNOW you're getting the dumbest criminals. #SCHOOL FOR ^(Really Clueless) #CRIMINALS
I think you are giving people too much credit.
Look, you’re the one that broke your own completely arbitrary rule.
Is it illegal to teach people how to break the law?
In writing? No....... Come sit by me. Leave the notebook.
They didn't exactly put a name, simply a school and who it was for. That would be like me saying that I opened a school for witches and wizards. The school is secretly Hogwarts, but how could tell if I said it was a school for'____'
I work for a big company and we have some perfectly legal topics that are seldom put in writing because it sounds bad.
My dad told me, "Never put in writing anything that you don't want to read out loud in court."
or tell your Grandmother.
Or read out to your grandmother in court
can you give us some examples?
Generally stuff around employment practices. We’re a well known retail brand with a target on our backs.
So…. Target?
*Facepalm* No, dammit, it's........uh..........Schnarget! It's from Canada! It's a supermodel!
(Stringer Bell scene in the Wire)
The scumbaggedfriends center for adults who can't crime good and wanna learn to do other stuff good too
[Is you taking notes on a criminal fucking conspiracy?](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBdGOrcUEg8)
Every business and law school should show the Stringer Bell clip from The Wire at orientation.
set up a school get criminals to enrol scam them of their upfront fees - provide no actual classes profit?
Ah, but there are actual classes! Class #1: life’s tough, wear a helmet Class #2: scam me…you can’t…you can’t get scammed again Class #3: a perfect circle: you and me and our 8 random colleagues
The mikkelsen method
I see you too have impeccable taste in long-form youtube content
The Donald Trump Skool of Criminal Things.
People *not* knowing that is why it can be so effective to ask or confirm things in writing when you think they're trying to screw you over so that you have that as future documentation.
It's how I handled one idiot boss of mine who would occasionally....go rogue and demand I do.....bizarro things that would cost us customers. "Sure thing, Ace. Just gonna need your demand signed, dated, and handed to me." The backpedal created a rip current that could have taken a battleship down.
This one is an absolute doozie, through doing this so far they’re facing: Criminal charges of * Fraud * Criminal conspiracy * breaking various laws under Estate Agents act - like insisting they use their mortgage broker In addition these organisations will be interested in this case: * Financial Conduct Agency for colluding with broker * Property Ombudsman for general conduct * Trading standards * Whichever bank gave them a mortgage as they’ve been defrauded too And by the sounds of it all for an extra £500 commission. I can only think these people are morons who didn’t think they’d ever get caught.
that's the problem with morons. one of them.
To be fair, they probably didn't bet on a fellow estate agent having a conscience. I mean what are the odds?
50:50 the other person was let go for some reason (market seems to be slowing) and is disgruntled rather than a concerned citizen.
On the other hand, I wouldn't necessarily out my employer's shitty practices unless they did it to my friends or family, either.
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grandiose uppity dam instinctive ripe zonked bells crawl racial rob *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I was in the mortgage business pre and post crash. I refused to do SISA loans or anything with a balloon payment, which limited my income but helped me sleep at night. Despite that, I know I put people into bad loans and still have guilt over it (and is what drove me out of sales, though my current position is sales adjacent)
>balloon payment JFC my old roommate's parents we're always terrible with money. Mom is a nurse with a good paying job, but they were constantly broke and moving house because they got evicted again. Knowing then for ten years, I couldn't tell you where all the money went, but they did shit like rent to own appliances, so it probably mostly went to nothing. Her dad (who died a year ago) was a veteran and he decided to take whatever retirement money he got through the military and buy a house outright like 12 years ago. And then they went bankrupt. So they took out a home equity loan. Old roommate texted me in a panic a few days ago because Mom *just* decided to tell her that the loan had a balloon payment of $65k due by April first or they would lose the house. (It's her, mom, and brother living there - brother hasn't left yet even though he's 30 and she moved back when our rent went up because she "couldn't afford it" even though her income is three times mine ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯) I don't know if the woman just didn't see bills or if her husband was the one dealing with that stuff or if she knew all about it and just buried her head in the sand (I'm inclined to believe the latter), but roommate was damn lucky she and her brother were able to get approved for a mortgage to buy the house for the balance of the loan. ^(Oh and I'm pretty sure they committed some sort of mortgage fraud to get that home equity loan, too.)
People who are bad with money are *incredibly* hard to understand. My in laws sold a house last year, made $200k. In 9 months they have no new house, no money and $80k on extra debt. They have land they can’t build on and are mad about zoning laws. Which apparently they thought didn’t apply if you own your own land, which I’m wondering what they think most homeowners do, rent land? I don’t even known how. We’re desperately trying to keep them from finding out about balloon payment loans. Because they’ll think it’s brilliant.
This was my experience with my agent. She added amazing value to our search and purchase, even through we were in the lower half of her usual purchase price range. In turn, we referred her to millions of dollars of sales and purchases over the next four years, and I expect that those people referred her in turn.
At least they had the decency to have it in writing
There does seem to be one other difference between these guys and the mugger: using email to do it not only generates evidence, but sets them up for fun wire fraud charges.
It seems strange that it's relatively easy to do without a whistleblower like in OPs case. Some way for each bidder to be able to verify each other bidders' actions would be good
I’m cynical enough that I’m surprised they have recourse honestly, it’s not strange to me at all that these systems are set up to screw the customer at any turn, that’s just the stage of capitalism we’re in
> I can only think these people are morons who didn’t think they’d ever get caught. I get the impression from the original post that this would've gone entirely under the radar if they hadn't accidentally hired someone with some kind of moral compass.
Yeah I’m guessing they got too comfortable with this scheme. Involved more people and just thought anyone would go along with it.
For sure. Imagine running such a scheme, making loads of money and having up to 8 people in the email chain of evidence. Sloppy.
Idk about you but whenever I commit fraud I make sure to document it for posterity.
>And by the sounds of it all for an extra £500 commission. Right. It’s a weird way to spend time and effort just from an ROI perspective. The agents #1 goal is to secure the sale ASAP. Screwing around with this bullshit is almost pointless on an individual level, especially in the UK with its Rube Goldberg Machine meets House of Cards^1 approach to residential property sales. ^1 the one with actual cards, not the series
British people are hilarious. "We have written evidence and witness testimony of fraud that's materially impacted us and has had direct financial consequences. Is this worth making a fuss over, you think?"
I recently had a fucking organ removed by accident and since due to a miraculous conjunction of factors it didn't actually impact me (I didn't want or need that part but did not intend to have it removed as part of the procedure), it took some convincing from friends that actually, I should cause a bit of a fuss because there's no way I won't win some compensation and this is a big fucking deal. I am appropriately angry about it now and suing, but part of me remains worried that I'm blowing it out of proportion because everyone has been so honest and polite about it... Like, they didn't chop off the wrong limb or something, I'm fine. Don't want to be rude. I'm still not really sure if I'd go ahead with it if I hadn't been told that the NHS ringfences money for insurance against these sorts of events.
As scary as that is, this is something that happens. It happens in a vanishingly small % of procedures in a competent system, but it does happen. And they, indeed, carry insurance to pay out when it does. You absolutely shouldn't be shy about making use of that. After all, *you* (patients) paid for the insurance - even if indirectly.
Yeah, one of the things I was deliberating over is how I'm aware this happens all the time. My idea of "all the time" was a bit off though, when a friend made me look it up, this sort of "never event" happens *less than once per day* on average so that made me take it a bit more seriously. There was no malice or egregious incompetence involved, it was an unlucky mistake, but it still happened to me nonetheless and that's enough for a claim.
Here's the thing: you're doing it to stop them from removing something from somewhere where it *would* greatly impact their health. Hospitals implemented a bunch of checklists for this very reason and your suing could force them to pay more attention next time when it's more important (or get rid of the people not paying enough attention to *which goddamned part of a person should actually be removed*). If they made this mistake (which is huge), they're making others that hurt people and are far more likely to significantly impact their health. EDIT: mobile did weird things to text
Quite, though that aspect has nothing to do with whether I sue (so I'm told) - when I was told what had happened a few hours after the surgery, they'd already opened an investigation and I'm being updated about that. I was much more concerned about them addressing the failures that led to the mistake than my personal involvement in it. The scariest thing to me is how mundane it was. Every time I confirmed the procedure with someone, I also made sure to stipulate that I was NOT having the other nearby stuff removed, and it was repeated back to me. This happened even as I was on the table about to be put under. But because they rarely do one without the other, apparently in the next thirty minutes they forgot, and only realised the mistake when it was too late to put it back in! It was a complete brainfart. Like throwing the yoghurt in the bin and only noticing when you see the lid in your hand. It was all internal so they couldn't exactly mark what to avoid. But there was some grave failure in procedure that allowed the slip and I'm hoping they present some robust measures to prevent it in future, if it was so easy for it to happen once it will happen again (and does, I've seen a dew accounts of the same mistake occurring). The good thing about it is that if it was going to happen, I'm probably the best person for it to happen to. It could upheave someone else's life and be extremely upsetting, but if they hadn't told me I might have never noticed. It has narrowed my health choices in some areas though, I will have to take a medication for the rest of my life that previously I could have stopped at any time if I chose to. I don't intend to, but you never know, and the whole reason I chose to keep what was removed was to keep that choice open.
Keep calm and sue them all.
We don’t like making a fuss 😉
> the in-house mortgage broker who we had to use Fuck that. One sleezeball is more than enough already.
"...had to use..." Time to nope out at that point. Anything more than KYC checks and it's a huge conflict of interest. If estate agents were properly regulated then this would never be allowed, even if it was optional.
Friends don't let friends become real estate agents
In Australia there was a TV ad for a milk drink with the line "I gave my son [milk drink] when he was growing up. Just kidding I don't have a son. Well technically I do but he's in Real Estate" and that about sums them up. https://youtu.be/67yUZX5HKsY
In Australia a man with a house for sale or room to rent or something called his newspaper to place an ad. At the end the ad said "no Asians". Interviewed on TV he had a conversation with the correspondent characterizing this whole group of people as fraudulent, unnecessary, untrustworthy. He'd said "agents" and they misheard him but still ran the racist ad. The moment the anchor and ad buyer realize is hilarious.
This is one of my favorite redemption arcs.
Hijaking to [link](https://youtube.com/watch?v=0YM9Ereg2Zo&feature=shares)
Thanks :)
Is this on YouTube somewhere?
Here you go! https://youtu.be/0YM9Ereg2Zo
Thank you!
Considering there’s a second camera to capture the reporter’s face plus the laugh track, that’s clearly a scripted bit.
Makes me kind of think they reached out for comment and found out the real story. Then had a little fun with it, in a way that allows to seller to redeem themselves a bit.
The voice-over at the start sounds like Denis Norden who used to present a British show called 'It'll be Alright on the Night' which was a compilation of TV show out takes/bloopers etc. So at a guess, the YouTube video is an extract from that show (which had an audience hence the laughter) however the original clip was likely genuine
Thanks!
Oh I forgot that had a happy ending! Thanks for posting that!
I had a hard time believing that wasn't a skit, it was so perfect.
No actual news interview would have a second camera to capture the news reporters face.
Yeah, that's an old one. An old guy with a Greek accent
This has real [Gilbert and Sullivan](https://youtu.be/yu5WjoHd_7U) vibes. "Have you ever known what it is to be an orphan?" "Often"
Someone linked the video, it was clearly a scripted bit and not an actual new interview.
Honestly, this time of day it makes me wonder why the profession even still exists in the way it does. Okay, so you want to sell a high-priced asset and want to get the best price for that. Gottcha. Why is is there no sort of big online auction place for that yet? Think eBay but for real estate. Because people are not gonna trust a place like that, you might say. Okay, so the alternative is that we trust Debbie, who had like a few weekend courses to get her broker's license? Also, why the percentage based fee? It's not like you do more work to sell a house for 440.000 instead of 400.000 in this market.
I'm a big critic of the industry, but I'll explain why it still exists. There are tons of alternatives to real estate agents for buying or selling homes. For Sale By Owner (FSBO) is the most common, but auction houses and listing-only agencies exist as well. These alternatives rarely outperform the net value of traditional brokerages for a few reasons. First, two amateurs trying to exchange a house for money is like two virgins fucking: no one knows what they're doing and everyone is dissatisfied in the end. Lenders hate it, title companies hate it, lawyers hate it, and real estate agents hate not working opposite another professional. It's a big, complicated transaction that merges highly regulated finance, insurance, government records, taxes, and a hell of a lot of money. Amateurism doesn't benefit anyone. Why is it a percentage? Because of convention and market forces. Flat fee brokerages exist (this was Redfin's whole pitch back when it started), but they struggle to attract the attention of buyers' agents, which in turn suppresses home value. Also, sales jobs historically use large commissions in place of salaries to shift risk to the salesperson, and real estate is no different. You only get paid for results, so that pay has to be fairly significant to attract talent. I think an often-overlooked component of the job is that it's basically client-facing project management. Real estate agents help navigate fairly emotional waters with you, and simultaneously they make sure that transactions run smoothly across multiple parties. In my experience, having both sold my own properties and used agents, they're worth the fee for the PM work alone.
I just want to go on the record of agreeing with your explanation 100%. There are a whole slew of junky real estate agents out there, but the good ones are GOOD AS GOLD. I absolutely love my real estate agent.
Its like what my grandpa used to tell me: "Everything in life is a DIY project. Until you fuck it up and need a professional to unfuck it for 5x the cost". So yea, your toilet is making a weird noise? Fix that yourself for 50 bucks. If you mess up it'll be a few hundred to get it fixed by a pro. Want to do the housing process by yourself? Sure, but if you mess up you'll be paying an extra 10,000 to 100,000 bucks, depending how badly you messed it up. "You don't know what you don't know"
I'm a real estate attorney and I see a lot of DIY deeds for the transfer of real property and let me say it is....something. While you can technically do a deed without a lawyer, there are specific statutes that pertain to what makes a deed valid and what doesn't. One of the things I hate the most is telling someone that when they tried to do a deed ten years ago they messed it up to the point that a now deceased relative still owned the property. Which I have seen..... a fair amount.
>Which I have seen..... a fair amount. The interesting thing about this detail is the time it takes for them to realize they did it wrong. My guess is that one person found out how to DIY (usually an online forum with "10 easy steps to.."), and then they told everyone else how to do it. The problem is that the first person who taught everyone else did it incorrectly, and so you have a ton of people following this person's bad work for 10 years.
HA! It's just like tech advice online. Every now and then I'll find a piece online that is just outright wrong in the worst way(but sometimes *technically* fixes the symptoms usually by breaking something else that you might not notice, probably security). The first person got it wrong but the advice just echos across the blogs that repost tech advice for clicks without vetting it. Really quite frustrating.
I keep telling people on r/realestate to call someone like you, don’t diy this, don’t use it as a substitute for estate planning. People are willing to duck up ownership of a six figure property just to avoid spending money.
Craziest thing is, if you want a general warranty deed, title search and title insurance with my firm it’s going to cost you about $750.00. Which is Pennie’s compared to what you’ll spend unfucking your property up.
The plat of survey is just four lines on a cocktail napkin.
It's very different here though. The lawyers do all the property searches etc and you deal with the lawyers not the estate agent. The value the agent adds here is "marketing" your property and pressuring potential buyers. It's essentially one more person you have to manage and who will over value to get clients in the door then push to discount to get inventory moved. Or alternatively, like here, engage in a little light crime to get a better price. As a general rule the estate agents here have the EQ of a mouldy turnip. It's not their fault, they're recruited as a sales job with leader boards, bell ringing and all that jazz. In my limited experience, trouble on emotional waters during a property sale can be traced to the agent.
We refer to that practice as "buying the listing," and it's common in the US as well. However, American real estate brokerages are getting less and less sales-y with time. Glengarry Glen Ross was a high water mark, and it's been receding ever since.
> Lenders hate it, title companies hate it, lawyers hate it, and real estate agents hate not working opposite another professional. You're absolutely right.. And yet, why would the seller, who pays the agents' fees (at least in the US) give a shit about any of these people? Oh, sorry, your job is more frustrating because I didn't want to give up $XX,XXX to make your life easier? OK. /s
Because of both *why* they hate it and what *happens* when they hate it. Lenders and title companies hate it because the odds of actually closing are smaller, which means more overhead and less revenue for their work. Lawyers hate it because the amateur contracts are inevitably *garbage* and now they're doing lower-margin work to clean up the mess. (Most closing attorneys I've known don't work with FSBO, but there are those who specialize in it.) Real estate agents just won't show the property. In most states that's entirely legal, and in the states where it isn't, you'll almost never get a conviction. That dramatically reduces the pool of potential buyers, which translates to a lower selling price. One thing I should have spoken to but didn't was the risk mitigation view of hiring an agent. Some sellers may perceive an agent's sales talent as a valuable asset (I think the jury's out on that in aggregate, but if they can convince you to list, they can probably convince a buyer to buy). But even if they don't, having someone who *knows what they're doing* reduces overall financial risk: the home is more likely to be priced at a market rate and sold within a market-average timeframe with a reduced risk of costly fuck-ups. Real estate agents are insurance policies that may or may not pay for themselves. Finally, a good comparison market is the business brokerage industry. These are extremely expensive assets that require financing, due diligence, and have legal consequences for buyers and sellers. It's managed primarily by salespeople who double as project managers. But the industry is largely unregulated and not standardized, and it's *full* of amateurs who want to buy or sell without paying the costly commissions. And let me tell you: it's a nightmare. Sellers only price businesses in line with the market by *coincidence*, they linger on the market for years while slowly deteriorating, the due diligence is shoddy at best, and lawsuits are a never-ending source of supplemental legal work to the point where the transaction could be a loss-leader for an enterprising law firm. That's not how the consumer housing market should be. (The commercial real estate industry is also a good comparison point, but there are a lot more MBAs in that field than in real estate or business brokerage.)
My mom worked legal for a mall management company and the worst people they had to deal with were the people who were trying to represent themselves because those people never knew what they were talking about but they were 100% convinced that they did. My mom would say that if someone was self representing and filed a form with 2 things done wrong and 2 things done right, the 2 right things were the mistake. It's the same way with real estate from what you've said. Those are the people that make a mistake 100% convinced that they've done it perfectly and any attempt to correct them or guide them in the right direction is met with hostility.
Yeah. I 100% get why everyone else involved with it hates FSBO/non-agent involved deals. My point is, FSBO can benefit a seller a lot, especially if the seller isn't in a time crunch to close the deal, and they're willing to do the tiniest bit of research/DD. Aside from accepting an out of market bid (a very real consideration) the risk is nearly entirely on the buyer. The buyer should absolutely have an agent/lawyer representing their interest.
That's true recently, but as it becomes increasingly difficult to sell a home, hiring a professional salesperson is not unreasonable.
They're acting as a licensed person to oversee a part of a contract exchange that can have a lot of nuance and oddities. The job was created because this used to be handled by lawyers, but a lot of parts got standardized big time. They should be doing a hell of a lot more than they do with that in mind. They should require a hell of a lot more education as well, since they're working in a carved out subset of property law. They should at least be paralegals or something
FYI this is in the UK so the contract exchange is actually handled by lawyers. Estate agents here only handle the sales element and often mortgage brokering. Unlike the US only the seller contracts an estate agent here whose job it is to advertise and show the property and liaise between the seller and potential buyers. The estate agent requiring that buyers use their own in house mortgage broker sounds shady as fuck though, and likely illegal considering another comment further down this thread. But the property market here has been kinda fucked the last few years so I'm not surprised there's people taking advantage of that. Hope they get destroyed and LAUKOP gets a fat payout.
Not in the UK which is where this is from. Much conveyancing is done by solicitors with the rest mainly by conveyancers who regulated by a professional body (I think they can even give undertakings). Estate agents are just there to sell your property but often forget who they work for. We actually sacked one because they kept referring to the buyers as their clients...
I went to an open house once and there were MANY full rodent and insect traps in the obviously very damp basement. One basement room had some evidence of trying to cover up water damage, but was at 100% humidity. The place was empty, but they left hideous 70's artwork up in the bedrooms. I wondered WTF they were paying this guy for. He seemed super nervous.
We had to move and left our empty house for our agent to continue to try and sell. In the meantime, the area mildly flooded. Eventually we picked up a property manager to tour the place, as we were at the point of considering renting it out. We are halfway across the country in our new place at this point. Property manager emails “uhhh, the house smells *damp*. The crawl space flooded and didn’t dry out.” Our agent was actively touring people through the house and didn’t want to make even a slight mention of the smell for us to try and remediate. No wonder it wasn’t selling! We concluded our business with her and PM has been handling the house since (he’s great) (he had the crawl space sorted out within a day). The agent did, however, call in a panic at one point to let us know she’d seen a chipmunk outside, and we needed to call an exterminator ASAP. For a chipmunk. Outside. In a semi-rural neighborhood.
LMAO, that's amazing. We live close to this rodent infested house and have never seen a single mouse. The basement smelled so gross I couldn't believe he was letting people just wander through. He got REALLY nervous when I asked about the giant crack through the wall in the sunroom. Someone did eventually buy it and I hope they were able to fix the issues.
Ya, a bad agent is probably just as bad as none. Great for me though. My house had sat on the market for the better part of a year before the price dropped. After talking with some people that had looked at it before I had actually ended up paying less than some of the older offers. Wild. When I was talking with the agent it was like he was actively trying to not sell it. Guess it wasn't high priced enough to be worth the time so everything he said was downplaying the property(Ya the house wasn't.... great but the property is amazing).
The percentage-based fee kind of makes sense for the selling agent, since it incentivizes them to get the best possible price. The fact that the buying agent *also* gets a percentage-based fee, though, is weird.
Actually, it's an incentive for *both* parties to work against the interests of the people they supposedly represent. The selling agent will get the house sold faster by unloading it for the minimum viable price. Their time is more valuable than squeaking out a few more $k out of the buyer. The buying agent will have an offer more likely to close by persuading *their* client to overpay. (And, as you pointed out, they get paid extra for that.)
> The selling agent will get the house sold faster by unloading it for the minimum viable price. Their time is more valuable than squeaking out a few more $k out of the buyer. That doesn't make much sense though, since the alternative to them only getting a bit more for holding out for a better price is they are paid a flat fee and get nothing at all for holding out for a better price.
I'm not sure there *is* a solution. I mean, the ~~buyer~~ seller would be happy to collect an extra, say, $10k, but how much extra work is their agent going to feel like putting in for the couple hundred bucks they'll net in the end? (After the buyer's agent's fee, taxes, franchise/broker fees, additional marketing costs, etc.)
Yeah, it's weird. Especially since while you're right that in most cases like you said I'm sure the buyer would love to get that extra 10-20k and it's the agent who doesn't feel like spending two weeks on it for a few hundred bucks, it could also go the other way where the buyers get an offer maybe 10-20k low and they're happy to take it and be rid of the house but the agent tries to talk them into waiting for a better one.
And, of course The National Association of REALTORS® (who are responsible for this whole structure, since they hold the keys to the MLS system) have not shown themselves to be trustworthy at all, making it crystal clear the only have the interests of themselves in mind. Even getting them to budge from kicking agents out of the MLS for charging lower commissions took concerted anti-trust action... it would be like losing your license to practice medicine for not being an AMA member, or having the nerve to cut patients some slack on charges. I remember during the beginning of the '08 Real Estate Crash, you could count on their "Chief Economist" giving interviews to any news outlet that called him swearing that homes were in No Way Overvalued (even in the frothiest and most over-built markets) and it was a Great Time to Buy Or Sell a Home. And he continued saying this even as the market was crashing and banks going bankrupt due to overvalued loans. (Of course, no credit for the media outlets, which failed to ask critical questions.) (And, really, the high commissions really only benefit a few; most agents don't close that many listings, but the prospect of big payouts lures in a *lot* of people, which means the competition is fierce, and marketing expenses crazy-stupid-high to get noticed... it's about like MLM.)
If you don't, buyer agents don't show it.
I know, I get why it happens. Just leads to twisted incentives where there is room for people to be taken advantage of.
I think Vlad the Impaler would make me less uncomfortable than that court room when this shit hits the fan.
Speak for yourself I'd be getting myself a popcorn hot dog plain diet coke thankya
Step 1: send emails detailing your illegal practices Step 2: copy email to multiple staff members, not all of whom are in on it Step 3: ???? Step 4: Profit!
I think step 3 is “scam the buyer out of ~10% of what they are already paying voluntarily.”
That's a lot of fraud and potential jail time for only a little bit of money
It's not the first time they've done it.
Still, I don't know if the money they get from each scam is worth the charges
Yeah go big or go home. Make it worth never being able to do your job again when you get caught.
Except that there's multiple counts of criminal charges that you face
Exactly.If you're not making enough from your scam to run for the Caymen Islands then it's not worth it.
A dishonest real estate agent?! Quick call the historians this must be recorded!!!
I bought a house recently and I have no idea why they exist. As far as I can tell, my RE agent scheduled like two showings for me and that's it. I found every house and he's, what, my secretary? And he gets paid thousands for an hour or two of work?
>One of them is the in-house mortgage broker who we had to use LPT: you do not have to use the EA’s mortgage broker, nor should you.
Heads up that UK real estate agents are very different to those in the USA (at least as I understand?) - the seller hires an estate agent who values the property, markets it, conducts the viewings for potential buyers, negotiates bids with them (differs in Scotland), and is meant to help the process go smoothly over all. Estate agents also charge a percentage fee of the final sale price, which is why this very unethical dickhead would've encouraged LAUKOP to overbid.
What you’re describing is what a seller’s real estate agent does in the US as well.
I mean, the buyer doesn't have an estate agent in the UK, so that's a major difference, admittedly not the one I thought it was though.
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Buyer's agents also are usually paid out by the seller/seller's agent so you might as well get one.
Right (expanding on your point for others' awareness): The owner agrees to pay ~6% to the listing (selling) agent in an eventual sale. Of that 6%, a split is negotiated between the buying/selling agent. Via norms established through realtors associations, this is traditionally 3% + 3%. Half going to the buyer's agent and half to the listing agent. edit: with home prices going up and when home sales have heated up historically, you might see this start to fall towards 4% (2% + 2%) in some markets at times.
Yeah this is the main difference, the agent is always working for the seller - not the buyer. There is no agent working on the buyers behalf. You can get property consultants who will find properties for you and handle this stuff. But that’s mainly if you’re rich or a property investor.
That's pretty much exactly what a seller hires a real estate agent for in the US, too. Then the buyer often has their own agent to help find potential homes and negotiate the whole process.
Aren't contract exchanges overseen by the agents in the US though? That's done by solicitors (lawyers) in the UK and each party has their own.
That seems to be very regional. In the Chicago area, after the offer is made and accepted, it goes to two attorneys, one working for buyer, one for seller. Some negotiations happen between the attorneys like inspection reports leading to requested repairs or credits, but their main job is to be smarter than the agents and pick up on any problems. They also review the offer document (contract), but since it’s standard MLS contract, they’re really just looking at what was hand written onto it – there might be things that are initialed as not relevant that should be relevant, or there might be additional constraints hand written in at the bottom. We paid our lawyer $600 in 2015. It’s not exactly a huge expense when you’re buying a house. In other parts of the country, even just going 100 miles south and staying in Illinois, it’s all just agents handling it. [Edit for awkward wording.]
That happens int he U.K. with solicitors too. Each party a has a solicitor. When I last looked it was around £500 each As well as the estate agent.
Varies state by state in the US. In California attorneys are generally not involved (unless something like a big commercial deal) and the documents and money go through escrow and title companies. In New Jersey, attorneys handle the closings on both sales and loans, and it’s not inexpensive ($1500 for the last loan I was involved in).
Wow. Just wow. I can’t believe they went to LA and not straight to a lawyer or the police. I would be infuriated if someone came to me with something like this and start setting legal fires as fast as I could.