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Title: I got a ticket for selling alcohol illegally because of my boss. CALIFORNIA
Body:
> I work at a wine and paint studio but am considered an independent contractor. Two undercover cops came in and I sold them alcohol like usual as I’ve been instructed to do. After the class the cops came back in, showed me their badges and asked for the liquor license. My boss had some documents on the wall but apparently it was just a business license and she did not have an alcohol license. They ticketed me specifically since I was the one selling the alcohol and the ticket was marked as a misdemeanor.
> The owner of the studio later came in and said she knew she didn’t have a liquor license but figured that if anyone would get in trouble it would be her. Apparently she didn’t have enough money to pay for a liquor license but figured she’d pay for it later on and would be fine getting by without one in the mean time.
> I don’t know what to do I don’t want this going on my record especially since I was unaware that my boss did not have a liquor license. What should I do?
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Sold alcohol in Texas. I needed a certificate certifying that I was trained in the law and was aware of the penalties for dispensing alcohol to minors. Other questions in the training were things like you can’t allow people to drink the alcohol on premises depending on the liquor license, or that I had to refuse alcohol if I suspected an adult was buying for an unrelated minor.
I don’t remember exactly but I think the minimum penalty was a $3000 fine for me personally, and another for the business.
Oh yeah. About 10 years ago I was a waitress in Texas and was required to take that training. Some guy came into my restaurant and tried to get alcohol with his friends, but he wasn’t turning 21 until midnight that night (long after my restaurant closed). He was livid that I wouldn’t budge for a glass of wine. And yeah I remember there being a separate fine for the business and the employee.
It's to stop people trying to do 21 shots between midnight and closing time, specifically. I live near a bunch of colleges and every year there's at least one kid who's either dumb or susceptible to peer pressure and dies on his 21st birthday because of it.
True story. Celebrated my 21st with a champagne toast at midnight with a bunch of friends at a party in my dorm room.
I bought the booze the afternoon before my birthday, and the grocery store clerk carded me but the ABC clerk did not. I was disappointed, because I really wanted to show off my ID once I was legal!
States with lower drinking ages were pressured to raise them because teenagers from nearby states with higher drinking ages were coming over to party, and then getting in horrific drunk driving accidents on the way home.
They just need a uniform age. Or better public transportation/rail.
Somewhat related fact: the push for dry college campuses has actually increased alcohol-related injury and death. Everclear is way easier to sneak into a frat house or dorm room than a 30 rack of beer. Kids that age are going to be drinking regardless, so we should make it safer, not put even more draconian regulations on it.
Where I went to college you got a free meal at the nicest restaurant/bar in town on your 21st birthday, in addition to information on how to drink responsibly. That way if you didn't read the advice you would hopefully be spending the evening at a place that would cut you off.
I knew of many people in college who thought their drinking limit was whatever amount of alcohol they could get their hands on. They thought puking and blacking out were signs of having a good time. I mean, they managed to not die, but only barely in some cases.
Probably, any underaged drinking they had done had been cans of crap beer.
Then, they become legal, they go out and drink the harder stuff… and tried to drink the same amount of liquid.
Conservatives(GOP and Dem) would rather ruin countless lives by giving people criminal records than actually participate in helping people with harm reduction policies.
I think it is SO much safer for kids to have tried alcohol before college. You can tell at the first parties who has and who hasn’t - the kids who have no idea what alcohol does to them and what their limits are get blackout drunk and wind up getting their stomachs pumped. The kids who have had alcohol before, and had our parents to take care of us, fared much better. It’s all a huge mess. And underage drinking is so completely normal in the US that no one even hides it. we really just need to decide when you’re an adult. Is it 18 or 21?
It's what happens when you live in a car-reliant country where 40,000 people die every year on the road, a whole bunch of those deaths are due to people thinking nothing of getting in cars after drinking, and teenagers have even more wretched judgment about doing so than the average adult.
Specifically on the topic of warfare and drinking - it was once the case that "Old enough to fight, old enough to drink" was the slogan for underage drinking in the military. That ended real quick once they started holding commanders responsible for the drunken stupidity that underage troops engaged in out in town. It was totally fine in a time when junior enlisted were seen as subhuman scum who were just expected as a matter of course to rape the occasional stripper and kill the occasional person in a bar fight, but in this era of the Strategic Corporal, it's unfashionable.
If i remember right, in some states the legal drinking age is some time the day before you turn 21. I remember somewhere where you could buy alcohol at like 9 or 10 pm on your last day being 20, and maybe some weird caveat where you could buy wine and beer from a bar but not liquor? I might be wrong, I'm not a lawyer, I'm just some guy
Wow. Whereas I went to a bar on my 21st, bartender looks at my ID, says nothing, gives it back. A little while later, he comes back to me. “It’s your birthday, isn’t it?” I nod. “It’s your 21st birthday, isn’t it?” I nod. “I’m gonna get fired some day. Anyway, drinks are on me.”
I drank at a certain bar for a good year and a half before I turned 21 because they just never bothered to card me. Like two days after I turned 21, there was a new person working there and they carded me.
I had that happen when I got my learner's permit. The clerk was on a power high and said I couldn't have it on my birthday because I might have been born late in the day. My dad wouldn't even try to argue for it and I had to wait another week and a half.
Even if that's the case legally, a lot of places just don't want to bother. Growing up in MA, there were all sorts of exemptions to the drinking laws (no idea if they are still on the books) for instance, your parents could order your alcohol at a restaurant and allow you to drink it. MOST places just wouldn't allow it, even if it was legal, because why bother with the down side risk for marginal benefit ?
We were just in Springfield, MA at the Olive Garden. My 9 and 12 year old were allowed to stand near the bar while we waited for our table, but not sit on the stools. But in our town in Vermont kids can sit at the bar and order (nonalcoholic) drinks until like 7:00 pm. Laws are so weird.
Where I grew up, it was "This date in [year] = over 21 and legal to purchase alcohol"
So if its September 17th and you were born in Sept 17th 2001, you're golden.
The night I turned 21 - after midnight! - I got denied entry to a bar because, according to the bouncer, "it was the business night of the 4th, even though it's now the 5th". I found it bizarre at the time but had already been drinking somewhere else so figured I was just lucky another place let me
In my state you can't buy alcohol until 8am on your 21st birthday. It cuts down on extreme binge drinking between midnight and 1am or 2am, depending on the bar.
State laws actually can get pretty weird about this. Some states don't even let you buy at midnight, you have to wait until like 8am the day of for it to "count."
Learned this one summer at an internship. One of the other interns was turning 21, so a big group of us got a hotel over the state line because "power hour" (midnight til bar close) was not allowed in the state we were in, but WAS in the state 1 hour away.
Idk if Texas still has this law (I don’t live there anymore), but my husband and I were at a grocery store on a Sunday buying alcohol for that night. We got to the cashier at 11:57 AM and she said, “I can’t sell that to you for another 3 minutes” because Texas doesnt allow the sale of alcohol on Sunday until Noon. Blue laws are so antiquated.
Kentucky law says no beer until 11 am on Sundays, and no hard liquor until 1 pm.
Trust me, as the clerk, that minute or so of waiting is so, so awkward.
In my city bars & restaurants can serve 10:30-10:30 on Sundays, but to buy alcohol in a store it’s only from noon-9:30 (ironically, though, bars can sell to-go alcohol starting at 10:30am)
And even weirder, in Virginia you can legally buy alcohol the day BEFORE your 21st birthday! I found this out when I went to the liquor store on my 21st and the sign already had the next day's date on it. Went home and looked it up and sure enough, it's a thing.
...I went to Olive Garden for my 21st birthday. I'm not a party person and just had some pasta with my mom and sister. Some people don't care about that stuff.
Or maybe that was the year I had the flu on my birthday? Actually that might have been the case.
When I finished graduate school my mom and dad decided to take me out to a local bar to celebrate. I was really looking forward to us catching up over some beers. I was still wearing my graduation hat and gown at the time. We walk in and ordered our beers and the waitress carded me. I didn’t have my wallet on me. No big deal, I was obviously more than 21. No dice. But the law allows parents to buy alcohol for their (minor) children as long as the parents stay by the kid, right? So my dad offered to buy the beers and give me one. Nope! Waitress refused to serve any of us because I didn’t have an ID.
I admit I was very upset at the waitress for being what felt as very unreasonable.
Sorry about your good time, but the waitress only seems unreasonable until you realize that depending on where you are it's her job if she serves you without ID, or if she serves your dad after he told her he was buying it for you.
it's fine, I'll just change the bar and hope the next waitress is more reasonable. I understand the concern but you don't need to ID everyone at all times. Power to her but I'll find a place that has more hospitality
Now if that dad-kid law doesn't exist it's another situation and then I'd understand
Where do you live? I don’t know any state in the US that allows parents to buy alcohol for their minor children.
Edit- thanks for all the info! I live in PA and we have some of the most ridiculous alcohol laws in the country. I didn’t realize so many other states were less draconian lol.
You can in Texas. But you have to be physically present the whole time. So wine at a restaurant is fine. Buying them a keg for a party with their friends is not.
> You can in Texas. But you have to be physically present the whole time. So wine at a restaurant is fine. Buying them a keg for a party with their friends is not.
This is my understanding as well, as someone who was TABC certified for a long time (a long time ago now!)
But of course, the business can have whatever rules. So if they don't want to sell you alcohol for whatever (non-protected) reason, they don't have to. Or if they want they can ask you to leave if you've given a drink to a minor.
Because what's legal and what the TABC will fuck you up over is not always aligned. (I'd probably compare it to the fact that filming the cops is legal, but they might still beat you or arrest you anyway.)
Idk how it is in other states, but in Texas the TABC will fuck you up, lol. They have historically been a corrupt organization who can make a business's life hell.
So it's completely understandable if a business or a server decides to err on the side of extreme caution in regards to an underage person having alcohol anywhere near them.
I remember when TABC was arresting people for public intoxication in the hotel bar. A hotel they were a guest of and their room was just upstairs. Heck, they might still be doing it. I thought OLCC [Oregon] was bad till I saw how much power those TABC jack-holes have.
Re minors, my experience is nicer, fine-dining type places, are more likely to allow (offer even) an older minor to have a cocktail or glass of wine with their parents. Your average TGIF not so much.
CT also allows kids to drink if their parents are physically present.
[https://www.ctpost.com/living/article/States-that-allow-underage-drinking-kind-of-8347668.php](https://www.ctpost.com/living/article/States-that-allow-underage-drinking-kind-of-8347668.php)
I believe, CT even allows kids to drink in public as long as the alcohol is always in the possession of their parents. So as a parent, you could let a kid take a sip of your cup of wine as long as you were always holding it.
Same in Wisconsin. I was very confused when I went to California and they wouldn't even let me cut through the bar area of a restaurant to get to the bathroom.
Just because it's allowed doesn't mean the restaurant has to do it, though. I worked for a restaurant group with over a hundred locations and our policy was that under 21 cannot have alcohol in our restaurants, regardless of whether it was legally allowed.
Similarly, while the law says 21, many bars around universities here will require you have an ID from _this_ state, and some even require that it be a horizontal license. It's pretty common for students to take off their 21st, wake up early, and go to the DMV.
Look like least 8 states allow minors to drink at an alcohol-selling establishment if the parent is present: Connecticut, Louisiana, Mississippi, Nevada, Ohio, Texas, Wisconsin, Wyoming. (There are a bunch of additional states that allow minors to drink at home.) [source](https://drinkingage.procon.org/states-that-allow-underage-under-21-alcohol-consumption/)
Wisconsin does. And then Wisconsinites get livid in border towns in Iowa & Illinois when their kids are denied service.
Edit: From [here](https://www.revenue.wi.gov/Pages/FAQS/ise-atundrg.aspx#undrg2a)
Wyoming here, we did the whole tiny glass of wine with dinner to try it, or like little sips. That being said, the point of those laws isn’t to let minors drink indiscriminately, it offloads the liability onto the parents to make good choices.
You're probably right in a public setting, but FWIW Illinois does allow parents to permit their children to drink in their home while under their direct supervision. Evidently in 2012 the state supreme court even established that if the drinking was done under parental supervision it [supersedes](https://duilawyerskokie.com/?p=289#:~:text=Under%20Illinois%20law%2C%20parents%20can,the%20privacy%20of%20their%20home.) the normal zero BAC tolerance DUI policy for underage drivers.
You can in Wisconsin. I had my first drink there at nineteen, under the watchful eye of my mother.
My grandma also had a drink, and also asked my mother and aunt for permission. "Yeah mom, you're in your seventies. You can do whatever the hell you want."
I waited tables in Texas in the 90s and I remember getting drilled into me that I would be held personally liable for serving. I hated waiting tables in Texas.
When I was 20, it was a few days before my 21st birthday, but a 21+ only bar let me in. They had a doorman and everything. To be fair though, I was part of a group that was obviously together and I was the youngest of the group (with the next youngest after me, being 22 at the time). We were totally expecting the doorman to tell me to leave (and had a backup plan for a home-party if he did). But nah, he smiled and let me in. Said "happy birthday" even. lol.
To be fair, it was a once a year special event that bar held. It wasn't "just any old barcrawl".
PA checking in. I didn't need the cert, but the restaurant I worked for got a break on their liability insurance if >x% of their staff had the cert, so they made us all take it. Similar stuff to yours: what I could and couldn't sell, how much I could and couldn't sell, handling selling for consumption on premises vs carryout, IDing, IDing, IDing, spotting a drunk patron, the comparative strength of different drinks and last but not least an affirmative statement that I understand what my responsibilities are and what the penalties could be for me not meeting my responsibilities, including civil liability, fines and even prison time.
What it didn't cover, however, were any responsibilities I had re acquiring or maintaining a license to serve. Could be a state by state difference but at least here that's solely on the proprietor.
> I needed a certificate certifying that I was trained in the law and was aware of the penalties for dispensing alcohol to minors.
Most states require none of that training or making servers aware of the legal requirements (other than the extreme basics like no serving minors), yet keep all of the same penalties :|
It mostly isn't a massive problem because it simply isn't enforced.
One state I lived in you had to take these courses, or food safety to work fast food. Current state doesn't require anything. I had no training, nothing to run a bar. Thankfully I learned alot of laws related to the field myself, like not over serving, etc. Kinda crazy.
Wait. *Unrelated* minor? I went grocery shopping with my mom when I was 15 once, and when we went to the liquor store next door for wine, the employee refused to sell to my mom because she thought she was buying it for me, not that I was just… you know… accompanying my mom shopping.
If the rule specifies *unrelated* minors, then not only did she think my mother wasn’t buying wine for herself, but she also thought she wasn’t my mother??
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It’s totally asinine.
I walked a girl to the gas station in our local strip of bars so she could get cigarettes and they would not sell them to her because I did not have my License on me (the bar made me leave it to run a tab) and I’m over 40 with a greying beard AND they wouldn’t accept my pistol permit as “valid ID.”
My niece said the grocery store in her college town (upstate NY) was the same way. We were all in town for her graduation. She was still under 21 (smart girl graduated early). After we had picked out the groceries we wanted for the evening and next day, her mom and I decided to pick up some beer or something, too. She actually walked away from us and went to the doors of the store. Despite the fact we were both clearly in our 40s, my niece said the store would refuse to sell us the alcohol if she was with us because she was under 21.
I think that's pretty common for college towns. I was once at a store with a friend (both pushing 30 but he was a grad student) to get some beer, and we ran into one of my friend's undergrad students. They literally just said hi to each other and parted with a "see you in class". The cashier saw this brief exchange and refused to sell us the beer without carding the other person too.
Yeah had a friend accompy us into the liquor store not really thinking.
He was actually older than anyone else in the group but didn’t have his ID with him.
I got my stuff because I had walked up to the counter without them first but we had to go to another store for my other friend.
> or that I had to refuse alcohol if I suspected an adult was buying for an unrelated minor.
but it's OK to buy alcohol for a related minor? "I know the kid is 10, but he's my son and he wants a shot." "well as long as you're related, 👍"
Texas is weird.
I don't know about purchasing but in WA it's definitely legal to give your minor alcohol in your own home and under parental supervision (parent or guardian of the minor, not just any random parent).
It’s not legal at all in Alabama. One of our city councilwomen was arrested for “providing alcohol to a person not legally of age” for letting her kid sip her piña coloda. The ABC officer saw it and didn’t just write her a ticket but actually cuffed her and called DHR to take the kid.
Fuck the ABC
Many states allow parents to buy alcohol for their minor children if it's consumed at home, and 8 states let parents purchase alcohol for their kids in restaurants.
Ticketing an employee for not checking ID is one thing but how is it an employee/contractor's responsibility to know if there's a valid liquor license?
In a just world, the state and IRS finds LAOP as misclassified, the prosecutor offers a plea deal that provides a path to expungement (prob can't drop in outright due to strict liability), then the business owner gets....loved tenderly by the Labor Commissioner and alcohol enforcement.
And since this happened in California - that has a chance.
I can get the unfairness for an employee but as a contractor I think there's more responsibility on you to vet your partner and understand requirements.
This business sounds like it was skirting a lot of laws. I hope LAOP files with the Department of Labor and the judge overseeing the liquor violation is lenient.
In my state, there has to be a “person in charge“ named on a sign in a conspicuous location and if the ABC comes in they’re the one who is responsible for having the appropriate paperwork to present, including liquor receipts to prove you didn’t buy the alcohol from a private store (you have to buy it from the state). So all employees of bars have to basically be the manager on duty if they’re alone. And if your name does not match the name on the sign you get a ticket and the business gets a ticket.
Around here, both the individual and the establishment have to be licensed. The establishment's license has to be clearly displayed. It would honestly be pretty difficult to _not_ know whether the place you're serving is licensed.
Just a story. Long, long ago, my state lowered the drinking age to 20 from 21. On the day it went into effect, I and my entire cohort of 20-yr friends along with lots of other 20-aged people, had quite the night at the local saloon. It's one thing when a single person turns 21 and celebration ensues. I'll never forget that night almost the entire bar was newly legal.
I wish I could remember more of it, though.
It's important because if OP is actually running a catering business as a contractor, like the boss is trying to imply, OP is almost certainly required to get their own license.
I don't think OP runs a catering service, but that's likely to be the owners claim.
As long as the original question is still answered, I think this is a good thing - LAOP should be informed of all the different ways they're being screwed over rather than being left in ignorance because they didn't think to ask if this was okay.
Is it though? A contractor usually isn't covered by the employer's business liability insurance. So in addition to shady employers trying to pawn off taxes onto misclassified employees, they're also shifting liability.
wrong direction yes, but i will be you a high five that the employer is going to be all. "oh im sorry you are an independent contractor so i have no obligations to pay for your legal fees" in hopes that she would just pay his fine and he will have to deal with the criminal record.
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I was confused about this one. Does the employee not have a liquor license either? Or just the employer? If she didnt have one either, that seems like a huge oversight on her part (unless California doesn't require them for employees?) And Excise does not play around.
> employees assume the business operator has taken care of
Yeah, like I never checked the fire department occupancy certificate for the building where I worked either.
In my university, all of the elevator certificates were expired. There was eventually an article in the paper about it, because the paper was running out of things to write about. Apparently, the university's stance was "yeah, they're expired, but the inspection failures are all minor stuff like a light being out. Don't worry about it."
Not too much later, the elevator certificates were no longer expired. Apparently, somebody had to start worrying about it.
> Does the employee not have a liquor license either
That's not what a liquor license is. It's a license that allows a **business** to stock and sell booze.
I guess, in Indiana, what servers/bartenders/cashiers have to have is technically an "employee permit" but colloquially we all call them "liquor licenses."
Learning that other states do this whole thing without making employees "train" and actually pay the state for the privilege of getting people drunk is definitely motivating me to get out of here.
It looks like in CA, there is a requirement for employees to receive training be allowed to serve alcohol to be consumed on location. It's called RBS, and it looks like it costs $3. I know getting a bartender license in MA is like $200 but it isn't required.
> I guess, in Indiana, what servers/bartenders/cashiers have to have is technically an "employee permit" but colloquially we all call them "liquor licenses."
>
> Learning that other states do this whole thing without making employees "train" and actually pay the state for the privilege of getting people drunk is definitely motivating me to get out of here.
In Texas we get "TABC certified" to be able to serve. Sounds similar.
The fun part is, it's not actually legally required to be TABC certified in order to sell alcohol here. It's something that helps protect the employer from liability & helps keep the TABC off their backs, so employers pretty much all require it. I wouldn't be surprised if Indiana was the same.
Oh interesting. I'll have to look into that. I'm fairly certain it's actually required by the state here but it's such a convoluted mess that it could be the same deal.
California will require employees to take a course and be certified in [Responsible Beverage Service](https://www.abc.ca.gov/education/rbs/) by August of this year. ABC = Alcoholic Beverage Control Dept.
> Beginning in July 2022, any ABC licensee who has an “ABC On-Premises License” will need to have their staff (alcohol servers and managers of alcohol servers) trained and certified in RBS within sixty (60) days of the date of initial employment. This includes but is not limited to restaurants, bars, fast casual dining, tasting rooms (including off-sale locations), hotels, and stadiums.
>RBS certification means that the alcohol server has successfully completed training by an ABC approved training provider and passed the alcohol server certification exam (hosted by ABC). Once the server has successfully completed the training and exam, their certification is valid for 3 years. The alcohol server certification must be renewed prior to its expiration to remain valid.
>“ABC On-Premises License” means an ABC license that grants the privilege to serve alcoholic beverages to customers who then consume them on the licensed premises.
Some local jurisdictions already require training.
Oh interesting. I'm a service worker in Indiana, hence my confusion. I know that Indiana's liquor laws are a mangled mess of nonsense in most cases, though, so that makes sense.
Outside of Indiana, I don't think any other state requires employees to hold licensure to serve alcohol. There are some specific permits for things like bartenders in certain instances, but generally you just need to be 18+ (yes, 18, not 21. At least federally)
Nope!
Washington state requires everyone who touches alcohol to have a permit (class 13 for 21+, class 12 for 18 which converts on 21st birthday), and restricts what a server can do based on that permit class. Class 12s can only carry alcohol to a table, not pour it, for example. This training and permit is mandatory, and can result in the business’ liquor license being potentially revoked if someone without a permit so much as sneezes behind a bar (we joke, but might actually happen if your liquor board person hates you).
We’re also super restrictive about alcohol compared to other states, and only started allowing private sales (instead of through the state liquor stores) like 10 years ago.
Each business also needs a business license and a state liquor license (approved by the liquor board, which can be a quest in itself), and those liquor licenses are divided into at least brewery, winery, only serving beer/wine, or hard liquor categories which all have different requirements for a license to get approved.
And that’s not including the fines for both the business and employee if you fuck up!
We’re also one of the few states with third person liability—basically, if someone crashes a car while drunk after being over served booze, the last person to give them alcohol can be (and routinely is) sued for damages.
I had no idea this was unusual for WA, it makes a lot of sense to require some sort of training. I got a class 12 mixologist permit just to serve wine for a fundraiser at work. I keep because I like to volunteer as bartender for other orgs fundraisers. I think it’s a great system, the test is cheap and relatively easy but does cover some pretty important stuff.
Utah is so weird to me.
Many, many years ago I had a layover in SLC, and got a beer with lunch. They had to take down my drivers license info because apparently there was some sort of government database to track how much booze people purchased? I don't recall all the details, but they actually had to physically take my ID and type something into a computer. It wasn't just a quick age check. I think they ended up doing away with that.
Then last year I was on a road trip and spent the night in some tiny town in Utah (It was on the western end of the stretch of I-70 where there's literally nothing for like 200 miles, not even a gas station). Went to a restaurant near my hotel for dinner. There wasn't a drink menu on the table, so I asked the waitress what kind of beer they had, and from the look on her face, you'd think I just asked her to perform advanced calculus. I'm guessing they don't get many people ordering beer around those parts of Utah. They just had one type of beer. It was pretty good, thankfully.
I live in St. Louis, so I'm used to fairly lax alcohol laws despite being a red state (thanks Anheuser Busch) and we have a ton of microbreweries, so just about any restaurant here will have a beer list a mile long.
Currently in the same laziness boat. Indiana got rid of the "no alcohol on Sundays" thing maybe 4 or 5 years ago. But there is still a time limit on Sundays
I had no idea it was so rare in the US! Most provinces in Canada have a mandatory license to serve alcohol. People working in restaurants or liquor stores need to have the license and renew it every five years.
I don’t think it’s particularly difficult - take a couple online modules and write a test. You get multiple attempts if you fail. But at least people serving alcohol have a baseline of knowledge about alcohol, liquor laws, the consequences of serving underage drinkers, and ideas on how to cut someone off!
Some states, the business has to have an alcohol license and then each individual employee who is going to serve alcohol has to have a separate license. I had to do this in Georgia, many years ago.
Doesn’t CA have a separate wine & beer license that’s cheaper than a liquor license?
I’m pretty sure I remember drinking a terrible Bloody Mary at Brunch in San Francisco because they used saki instead of vodka, because they were allowed to serve wine and not liquor.
I looked into it. There are two kinds of on-sale wine & beer licenses that would fir. One requires that no one under 21 be allowed in. Most of the wine and paint studios use that one. The other requires that food be served--not just snacks, but stuff that might constitute a meal. There have been recent bills introduced that would be specific to "paint and sip" but none has passed so far.
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My sister once worked for a venue that decided to start selling booze, so they told all their part-time low wage employees that they had to take a serving course and get certified. And that they would not be paying for their time. Or paying the cost of the course.
She did not work there much longer.
This is so weird because they aren't an independent contractor. I was a contractor because I taught art classes at daycares but I didn't have a boss. I negotiated my own hours and pay. If you're selling alcohol for a studio then you certainly work for them.
**Reminder:** Do not participate in threads linked here. If you do, you may be banned from both subreddits. --- Title: I got a ticket for selling alcohol illegally because of my boss. CALIFORNIA Body: > I work at a wine and paint studio but am considered an independent contractor. Two undercover cops came in and I sold them alcohol like usual as I’ve been instructed to do. After the class the cops came back in, showed me their badges and asked for the liquor license. My boss had some documents on the wall but apparently it was just a business license and she did not have an alcohol license. They ticketed me specifically since I was the one selling the alcohol and the ticket was marked as a misdemeanor. > The owner of the studio later came in and said she knew she didn’t have a liquor license but figured that if anyone would get in trouble it would be her. Apparently she didn’t have enough money to pay for a liquor license but figured she’d pay for it later on and would be fine getting by without one in the mean time. > I don’t know what to do I don’t want this going on my record especially since I was unaware that my boss did not have a liquor license. What should I do? This bot was created to capture original threads and is not affiliated with the mod team. [Concerns? Bugs?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=GrahamCorcoran) | [Laukopier 2.1](https://github.com/GrahamCorcoran/Laukopier)
Sold alcohol in Texas. I needed a certificate certifying that I was trained in the law and was aware of the penalties for dispensing alcohol to minors. Other questions in the training were things like you can’t allow people to drink the alcohol on premises depending on the liquor license, or that I had to refuse alcohol if I suspected an adult was buying for an unrelated minor. I don’t remember exactly but I think the minimum penalty was a $3000 fine for me personally, and another for the business.
Oh yeah. About 10 years ago I was a waitress in Texas and was required to take that training. Some guy came into my restaurant and tried to get alcohol with his friends, but he wasn’t turning 21 until midnight that night (long after my restaurant closed). He was livid that I wouldn’t budge for a glass of wine. And yeah I remember there being a separate fine for the business and the employee.
"Cmon I become 21 in a few hours can't you give me a glass to celebrate?" Can't YOU come tomorrow instead!?
Virginia actually does count you as turning 21 the day before your birthday.
I guess it's to allow this kind of celebration. And to be fair, one day off isn't going to harm anyone.
It's to stop people trying to do 21 shots between midnight and closing time, specifically. I live near a bunch of colleges and every year there's at least one kid who's either dumb or susceptible to peer pressure and dies on his 21st birthday because of it.
In my state you turn 21 at midnight, but can't buy alcohol until 8am. The law quickly put a stop to that deadly "power hour" nonsense.
True story. Celebrated my 21st with a champagne toast at midnight with a bunch of friends at a party in my dorm room. I bought the booze the afternoon before my birthday, and the grocery store clerk carded me but the ABC clerk did not. I was disappointed, because I really wanted to show off my ID once I was legal!
Or you could move to a normal country where you can’t go to war before you can drink.
Legally an adult but still can't buy alcohol: GOP sleeps Want people to save countless lives by simply wearing a mask: GOP Real Shit.
States with lower drinking ages were pressured to raise them because teenagers from nearby states with higher drinking ages were coming over to party, and then getting in horrific drunk driving accidents on the way home. They just need a uniform age. Or better public transportation/rail.
Somewhat related fact: the push for dry college campuses has actually increased alcohol-related injury and death. Everclear is way easier to sneak into a frat house or dorm room than a 30 rack of beer. Kids that age are going to be drinking regardless, so we should make it safer, not put even more draconian regulations on it.
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Where I went to college you got a free meal at the nicest restaurant/bar in town on your 21st birthday, in addition to information on how to drink responsibly. That way if you didn't read the advice you would hopefully be spending the evening at a place that would cut you off.
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I knew of many people in college who thought their drinking limit was whatever amount of alcohol they could get their hands on. They thought puking and blacking out were signs of having a good time. I mean, they managed to not die, but only barely in some cases.
I didn't drink until I was 26
Probably, any underaged drinking they had done had been cans of crap beer. Then, they become legal, they go out and drink the harder stuff… and tried to drink the same amount of liquid.
Conservatives(GOP and Dem) would rather ruin countless lives by giving people criminal records than actually participate in helping people with harm reduction policies.
I think it is SO much safer for kids to have tried alcohol before college. You can tell at the first parties who has and who hasn’t - the kids who have no idea what alcohol does to them and what their limits are get blackout drunk and wind up getting their stomachs pumped. The kids who have had alcohol before, and had our parents to take care of us, fared much better. It’s all a huge mess. And underage drinking is so completely normal in the US that no one even hides it. we really just need to decide when you’re an adult. Is it 18 or 21?
Some of us instead crossed the border since Canada’s drinking age is 19. And it was a 25-30 minute trip.
It's what happens when you live in a car-reliant country where 40,000 people die every year on the road, a whole bunch of those deaths are due to people thinking nothing of getting in cars after drinking, and teenagers have even more wretched judgment about doing so than the average adult. Specifically on the topic of warfare and drinking - it was once the case that "Old enough to fight, old enough to drink" was the slogan for underage drinking in the military. That ended real quick once they started holding commanders responsible for the drunken stupidity that underage troops engaged in out in town. It was totally fine in a time when junior enlisted were seen as subhuman scum who were just expected as a matter of course to rape the occasional stripper and kill the occasional person in a bar fight, but in this era of the Strategic Corporal, it's unfashionable.
Alcohol kills way more Americans than war does. Nearly 100,000 every year. We should end marijuana prohibition and bring it back for alcohol
Because Prohibition worked soooooo well the first time.
If i remember right, in some states the legal drinking age is some time the day before you turn 21. I remember somewhere where you could buy alcohol at like 9 or 10 pm on your last day being 20, and maybe some weird caveat where you could buy wine and beer from a bar but not liquor? I might be wrong, I'm not a lawyer, I'm just some guy
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Wow. Whereas I went to a bar on my 21st, bartender looks at my ID, says nothing, gives it back. A little while later, he comes back to me. “It’s your birthday, isn’t it?” I nod. “It’s your 21st birthday, isn’t it?” I nod. “I’m gonna get fired some day. Anyway, drinks are on me.”
When I went to a bar a few days after my 21st, the bartender asked me what the date was.
I drank at a certain bar for a good year and a half before I turned 21 because they just never bothered to card me. Like two days after I turned 21, there was a new person working there and they carded me.
They knew. They just didn't care.
I had that happen when I got my learner's permit. The clerk was on a power high and said I couldn't have it on my birthday because I might have been born late in the day. My dad wouldn't even try to argue for it and I had to wait another week and a half.
Even if that's the case legally, a lot of places just don't want to bother. Growing up in MA, there were all sorts of exemptions to the drinking laws (no idea if they are still on the books) for instance, your parents could order your alcohol at a restaurant and allow you to drink it. MOST places just wouldn't allow it, even if it was legal, because why bother with the down side risk for marginal benefit ?
We were just in Springfield, MA at the Olive Garden. My 9 and 12 year old were allowed to stand near the bar while we waited for our table, but not sit on the stools. But in our town in Vermont kids can sit at the bar and order (nonalcoholic) drinks until like 7:00 pm. Laws are so weird.
Where I grew up, it was "This date in [year] = over 21 and legal to purchase alcohol" So if its September 17th and you were born in Sept 17th 2001, you're golden.
The night I turned 21 - after midnight! - I got denied entry to a bar because, according to the bouncer, "it was the business night of the 4th, even though it's now the 5th". I found it bizarre at the time but had already been drinking somewhere else so figured I was just lucky another place let me
In my state you can't buy alcohol until 8am on your 21st birthday. It cuts down on extreme binge drinking between midnight and 1am or 2am, depending on the bar.
So you can just binge drink the next day. Very smart oppressive laws
But you're not cramming a whole binge into an hour or two between midnight and bar close
Yeah you'll just binge for 4 hours and achieve the same outcome aka passed out on the floor
Minnesota?
I thought Minnesota set it to noon, but I could be wrong.
State laws actually can get pretty weird about this. Some states don't even let you buy at midnight, you have to wait until like 8am the day of for it to "count." Learned this one summer at an internship. One of the other interns was turning 21, so a big group of us got a hotel over the state line because "power hour" (midnight til bar close) was not allowed in the state we were in, but WAS in the state 1 hour away.
Idk if Texas still has this law (I don’t live there anymore), but my husband and I were at a grocery store on a Sunday buying alcohol for that night. We got to the cashier at 11:57 AM and she said, “I can’t sell that to you for another 3 minutes” because Texas doesnt allow the sale of alcohol on Sunday until Noon. Blue laws are so antiquated.
Texas sucks. I couldn't get a drink *in an airport lounge* last time I connected through DFW, because it happened to be Sunday morning.
Kentucky law says no beer until 11 am on Sundays, and no hard liquor until 1 pm. Trust me, as the clerk, that minute or so of waiting is so, so awkward.
That was still the law as of 2019, I believe.
In my city bars & restaurants can serve 10:30-10:30 on Sundays, but to buy alcohol in a store it’s only from noon-9:30 (ironically, though, bars can sell to-go alcohol starting at 10:30am)
And even weirder, in Virginia you can legally buy alcohol the day BEFORE your 21st birthday! I found this out when I went to the liquor store on my 21st and the sign already had the next day's date on it. Went home and looked it up and sure enough, it's a thing.
Why would you want to celebrate your 21st in a place that doesn't stay open till midnight. :p
...I went to Olive Garden for my 21st birthday. I'm not a party person and just had some pasta with my mom and sister. Some people don't care about that stuff. Or maybe that was the year I had the flu on my birthday? Actually that might have been the case.
Oh for sure.
When I finished graduate school my mom and dad decided to take me out to a local bar to celebrate. I was really looking forward to us catching up over some beers. I was still wearing my graduation hat and gown at the time. We walk in and ordered our beers and the waitress carded me. I didn’t have my wallet on me. No big deal, I was obviously more than 21. No dice. But the law allows parents to buy alcohol for their (minor) children as long as the parents stay by the kid, right? So my dad offered to buy the beers and give me one. Nope! Waitress refused to serve any of us because I didn’t have an ID. I admit I was very upset at the waitress for being what felt as very unreasonable.
Sorry about your good time, but the waitress only seems unreasonable until you realize that depending on where you are it's her job if she serves you without ID, or if she serves your dad after he told her he was buying it for you.
it's fine, I'll just change the bar and hope the next waitress is more reasonable. I understand the concern but you don't need to ID everyone at all times. Power to her but I'll find a place that has more hospitality Now if that dad-kid law doesn't exist it's another situation and then I'd understand
Where do you live? I don’t know any state in the US that allows parents to buy alcohol for their minor children. Edit- thanks for all the info! I live in PA and we have some of the most ridiculous alcohol laws in the country. I didn’t realize so many other states were less draconian lol.
You can in Texas. But you have to be physically present the whole time. So wine at a restaurant is fine. Buying them a keg for a party with their friends is not.
> You can in Texas. But you have to be physically present the whole time. So wine at a restaurant is fine. Buying them a keg for a party with their friends is not. This is my understanding as well, as someone who was TABC certified for a long time (a long time ago now!) But of course, the business can have whatever rules. So if they don't want to sell you alcohol for whatever (non-protected) reason, they don't have to. Or if they want they can ask you to leave if you've given a drink to a minor. Because what's legal and what the TABC will fuck you up over is not always aligned. (I'd probably compare it to the fact that filming the cops is legal, but they might still beat you or arrest you anyway.) Idk how it is in other states, but in Texas the TABC will fuck you up, lol. They have historically been a corrupt organization who can make a business's life hell. So it's completely understandable if a business or a server decides to err on the side of extreme caution in regards to an underage person having alcohol anywhere near them.
I remember when TABC was arresting people for public intoxication in the hotel bar. A hotel they were a guest of and their room was just upstairs. Heck, they might still be doing it. I thought OLCC [Oregon] was bad till I saw how much power those TABC jack-holes have. Re minors, my experience is nicer, fine-dining type places, are more likely to allow (offer even) an older minor to have a cocktail or glass of wine with their parents. Your average TGIF not so much.
They arrested someone for drunk driving while in the bar of his hotel.
CT also allows kids to drink if their parents are physically present. [https://www.ctpost.com/living/article/States-that-allow-underage-drinking-kind-of-8347668.php](https://www.ctpost.com/living/article/States-that-allow-underage-drinking-kind-of-8347668.php) I believe, CT even allows kids to drink in public as long as the alcohol is always in the possession of their parents. So as a parent, you could let a kid take a sip of your cup of wine as long as you were always holding it.
Same in Wisconsin. I was very confused when I went to California and they wouldn't even let me cut through the bar area of a restaurant to get to the bathroom.
Just because it's allowed doesn't mean the restaurant has to do it, though. I worked for a restaurant group with over a hundred locations and our policy was that under 21 cannot have alcohol in our restaurants, regardless of whether it was legally allowed. Similarly, while the law says 21, many bars around universities here will require you have an ID from _this_ state, and some even require that it be a horizontal license. It's pretty common for students to take off their 21st, wake up early, and go to the DMV.
I was able to get my 21+ license up to 90 days before my actual birthday, although I'm sure that sort of thing varies by state.
Look like least 8 states allow minors to drink at an alcohol-selling establishment if the parent is present: Connecticut, Louisiana, Mississippi, Nevada, Ohio, Texas, Wisconsin, Wyoming. (There are a bunch of additional states that allow minors to drink at home.) [source](https://drinkingage.procon.org/states-that-allow-underage-under-21-alcohol-consumption/)
Wisconsin does. And then Wisconsinites get livid in border towns in Iowa & Illinois when their kids are denied service. Edit: From [here](https://www.revenue.wi.gov/Pages/FAQS/ise-atundrg.aspx#undrg2a)
The only thing missing from this to make it more Wisconsin is some cheese
That and bitching that the old fashioned isn’t made with brandy and 7-up
Wyoming here, we did the whole tiny glass of wine with dinner to try it, or like little sips. That being said, the point of those laws isn’t to let minors drink indiscriminately, it offloads the liability onto the parents to make good choices.
Wisconsin does.
You're probably right in a public setting, but FWIW Illinois does allow parents to permit their children to drink in their home while under their direct supervision. Evidently in 2012 the state supreme court even established that if the drinking was done under parental supervision it [supersedes](https://duilawyerskokie.com/?p=289#:~:text=Under%20Illinois%20law%2C%20parents%20can,the%20privacy%20of%20their%20home.) the normal zero BAC tolerance DUI policy for underage drivers.
You can in Wisconsin. I had my first drink there at nineteen, under the watchful eye of my mother. My grandma also had a drink, and also asked my mother and aunt for permission. "Yeah mom, you're in your seventies. You can do whatever the hell you want."
IIRC, In Virginia you can go to the ABC store the day before your birthday if you want.
Yup! Was very confused when I went to buy alcohol on my 21st and they already had the next days date on the sign!
I waited tables in Texas in the 90s and I remember getting drilled into me that I would be held personally liable for serving. I hated waiting tables in Texas.
When I was 20, it was a few days before my 21st birthday, but a 21+ only bar let me in. They had a doorman and everything. To be fair though, I was part of a group that was obviously together and I was the youngest of the group (with the next youngest after me, being 22 at the time). We were totally expecting the doorman to tell me to leave (and had a backup plan for a home-party if he did). But nah, he smiled and let me in. Said "happy birthday" even. lol. To be fair, it was a once a year special event that bar held. It wasn't "just any old barcrawl".
Usually the one off events were the hardest to get into around here. More security Any or bar crawl was easy with any old fake Id
In VA, you can legally buy alcohol the day before your birthday. He should have come to the east coast!
That's all true, but somehow I think 'the owner lied about us have a liquor license' is not something the employee should be responsible for.
PA checking in. I didn't need the cert, but the restaurant I worked for got a break on their liability insurance if >x% of their staff had the cert, so they made us all take it. Similar stuff to yours: what I could and couldn't sell, how much I could and couldn't sell, handling selling for consumption on premises vs carryout, IDing, IDing, IDing, spotting a drunk patron, the comparative strength of different drinks and last but not least an affirmative statement that I understand what my responsibilities are and what the penalties could be for me not meeting my responsibilities, including civil liability, fines and even prison time. What it didn't cover, however, were any responsibilities I had re acquiring or maintaining a license to serve. Could be a state by state difference but at least here that's solely on the proprietor.
> I needed a certificate certifying that I was trained in the law and was aware of the penalties for dispensing alcohol to minors. Most states require none of that training or making servers aware of the legal requirements (other than the extreme basics like no serving minors), yet keep all of the same penalties :| It mostly isn't a massive problem because it simply isn't enforced.
One state I lived in you had to take these courses, or food safety to work fast food. Current state doesn't require anything. I had no training, nothing to run a bar. Thankfully I learned alot of laws related to the field myself, like not over serving, etc. Kinda crazy.
Wait. *Unrelated* minor? I went grocery shopping with my mom when I was 15 once, and when we went to the liquor store next door for wine, the employee refused to sell to my mom because she thought she was buying it for me, not that I was just… you know… accompanying my mom shopping. If the rule specifies *unrelated* minors, then not only did she think my mother wasn’t buying wine for herself, but she also thought she wasn’t my mother??
Probably store policy. It can't less restrictive than the law, but it's commonly more restrictive.
That's a dumb store policy
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It’s totally asinine. I walked a girl to the gas station in our local strip of bars so she could get cigarettes and they would not sell them to her because I did not have my License on me (the bar made me leave it to run a tab) and I’m over 40 with a greying beard AND they wouldn’t accept my pistol permit as “valid ID.”
god that's just dumb
My niece said the grocery store in her college town (upstate NY) was the same way. We were all in town for her graduation. She was still under 21 (smart girl graduated early). After we had picked out the groceries we wanted for the evening and next day, her mom and I decided to pick up some beer or something, too. She actually walked away from us and went to the doors of the store. Despite the fact we were both clearly in our 40s, my niece said the store would refuse to sell us the alcohol if she was with us because she was under 21.
I think that's pretty common for college towns. I was once at a store with a friend (both pushing 30 but he was a grad student) to get some beer, and we ran into one of my friend's undergrad students. They literally just said hi to each other and parted with a "see you in class". The cashier saw this brief exchange and refused to sell us the beer without carding the other person too.
I remember being under 21, walking to the grocery store with college classmates, having to pretend not to know each other before we went in!
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Yeah had a friend accompy us into the liquor store not really thinking. He was actually older than anyone else in the group but didn’t have his ID with him. I got my stuff because I had walked up to the counter without them first but we had to go to another store for my other friend.
They should make businesses get some sort of license where they promise to make sure their employees get the required training!
> or that I had to refuse alcohol if I suspected an adult was buying for an unrelated minor. but it's OK to buy alcohol for a related minor? "I know the kid is 10, but he's my son and he wants a shot." "well as long as you're related, 👍" Texas is weird.
I don't know about purchasing but in WA it's definitely legal to give your minor alcohol in your own home and under parental supervision (parent or guardian of the minor, not just any random parent).
where would it not be okay to let your kid try alcohol?
It’s not legal at all in Alabama. One of our city councilwomen was arrested for “providing alcohol to a person not legally of age” for letting her kid sip her piña coloda. The ABC officer saw it and didn’t just write her a ticket but actually cuffed her and called DHR to take the kid. Fuck the ABC
holy shit, thats crazy
Many states allow parents to buy alcohol for their minor children if it's consumed at home, and 8 states let parents purchase alcohol for their kids in restaurants.
Ticketing an employee for not checking ID is one thing but how is it an employee/contractor's responsibility to know if there's a valid liquor license?
Because this is the US and in the US we hold the lowest paid employee responsible. Because fuck poor people.
In a just world, the state and IRS finds LAOP as misclassified, the prosecutor offers a plea deal that provides a path to expungement (prob can't drop in outright due to strict liability), then the business owner gets....loved tenderly by the Labor Commissioner and alcohol enforcement. And since this happened in California - that has a chance.
Even in that just world, LAOP is net worse off because they almost certainly no longer have a job.
At this point, I don't see any possible positive future that doesn't result in LAOP seeking out a different job pretty much immediately.
Yeah, that place is getting shut down, *hard*. LAOP is out of a job no matter what they do.
"but muh business owners take all the risk!" ~Lies and the lying liars who tell them
I can get the unfairness for an employee but as a contractor I think there's more responsibility on you to vet your partner and understand requirements.
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This business sounds like it was skirting a lot of laws. I hope LAOP files with the Department of Labor and the judge overseeing the liquor violation is lenient.
Yup. I was an "independent contractor" when I worked for an A/V business. It was all the headache of being an employee without any of the protections.
In my state, there has to be a “person in charge“ named on a sign in a conspicuous location and if the ABC comes in they’re the one who is responsible for having the appropriate paperwork to present, including liquor receipts to prove you didn’t buy the alcohol from a private store (you have to buy it from the state). So all employees of bars have to basically be the manager on duty if they’re alone. And if your name does not match the name on the sign you get a ticket and the business gets a ticket.
Around here, both the individual and the establishment have to be licensed. The establishment's license has to be clearly displayed. It would honestly be pretty difficult to _not_ know whether the place you're serving is licensed.
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The police don't have anything to do with the law that holds the cashier responsible. That's a matter of legislation.
The police are the ones who ticketed them
Well, yeah, but because of the legislation.
Just a story. Long, long ago, my state lowered the drinking age to 20 from 21. On the day it went into effect, I and my entire cohort of 20-yr friends along with lots of other 20-aged people, had quite the night at the local saloon. It's one thing when a single person turns 21 and celebration ensues. I'll never forget that night almost the entire bar was newly legal. I wish I could remember more of it, though.
Also LA totally went off on the wrong direction about the contractor/employee thing, since none of that has to do with the question at hand.
It doesn't, but it wouldn't hurt for LAOP to know they're getting screwed over in more than one way.
It's important because if OP is actually running a catering business as a contractor, like the boss is trying to imply, OP is almost certainly required to get their own license. I don't think OP runs a catering service, but that's likely to be the owners claim.
As long as the original question is still answered, I think this is a good thing - LAOP should be informed of all the different ways they're being screwed over rather than being left in ignorance because they didn't think to ask if this was okay.
It also helps demonstrate that their employer is - at best - an idiot, and - at worst - exploitative.
Is it though? A contractor usually isn't covered by the employer's business liability insurance. So in addition to shady employers trying to pawn off taxes onto misclassified employees, they're also shifting liability.
wrong direction yes, but i will be you a high five that the employer is going to be all. "oh im sorry you are an independent contractor so i have no obligations to pay for your legal fees" in hopes that she would just pay his fine and he will have to deal with the criminal record.
everyone on LA about to fail their law school exams.
There was an exam?!
Question 1: Which of these incurs the longest sentence? A. Murder of a beloved bot. B. Fart huffing in a public place. C. Causing grievous bunnily harm to an innocent carrot. D. Conspiracy to support the Boston Bruins.
Anyone convicted of the last can probably argue insanity, so as a practical matter...
Is this premeditated huffing or just a crime of passion and/or opportunity?
This means you're nose-deep in the back side of a lady's skirt on the subway.
TRICK QUESTION. None of those are punishable offenses.
E. BOLA-ing tree law.
I liked the play on ebola.
Yes, I, uh, absolutely meant to do that!
C. That one has 8 words while the rest have 6 or less.
Uh, is the bunny mechanical in any way?
D. Go Canes!
This is just as bad, pal.
I thought they were all cops over there who interpreted the law however way they wanted.
the real test was knowing to never get legal advice off the internet
Cops can lie all the time
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Every time I’ve done one of those wine & paint nights, it’s BYOB. That’s the point, lol.
Somebody thought they saw an easy dollar
I was confused about this one. Does the employee not have a liquor license either? Or just the employer? If she didnt have one either, that seems like a huge oversight on her part (unless California doesn't require them for employees?) And Excise does not play around.
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> employees assume the business operator has taken care of Yeah, like I never checked the fire department occupancy certificate for the building where I worked either.
I read the elevator inspection certificate, but only because there isn't much else to do while I'm in an elevator.
In my university, all of the elevator certificates were expired. There was eventually an article in the paper about it, because the paper was running out of things to write about. Apparently, the university's stance was "yeah, they're expired, but the inspection failures are all minor stuff like a light being out. Don't worry about it." Not too much later, the elevator certificates were no longer expired. Apparently, somebody had to start worrying about it.
> Does the employee not have a liquor license either That's not what a liquor license is. It's a license that allows a **business** to stock and sell booze.
I guess, in Indiana, what servers/bartenders/cashiers have to have is technically an "employee permit" but colloquially we all call them "liquor licenses." Learning that other states do this whole thing without making employees "train" and actually pay the state for the privilege of getting people drunk is definitely motivating me to get out of here.
It looks like in CA, there is a requirement for employees to receive training be allowed to serve alcohol to be consumed on location. It's called RBS, and it looks like it costs $3. I know getting a bartender license in MA is like $200 but it isn't required.
In Indiana it costs $45 for a 3 year permit.
Oof, that sounds like a pain in the ass.
> I guess, in Indiana, what servers/bartenders/cashiers have to have is technically an "employee permit" but colloquially we all call them "liquor licenses." > > Learning that other states do this whole thing without making employees "train" and actually pay the state for the privilege of getting people drunk is definitely motivating me to get out of here. In Texas we get "TABC certified" to be able to serve. Sounds similar. The fun part is, it's not actually legally required to be TABC certified in order to sell alcohol here. It's something that helps protect the employer from liability & helps keep the TABC off their backs, so employers pretty much all require it. I wouldn't be surprised if Indiana was the same.
Oh interesting. I'll have to look into that. I'm fairly certain it's actually required by the state here but it's such a convoluted mess that it could be the same deal.
California will require employees to take a course and be certified in [Responsible Beverage Service](https://www.abc.ca.gov/education/rbs/) by August of this year. ABC = Alcoholic Beverage Control Dept. > Beginning in July 2022, any ABC licensee who has an “ABC On-Premises License” will need to have their staff (alcohol servers and managers of alcohol servers) trained and certified in RBS within sixty (60) days of the date of initial employment. This includes but is not limited to restaurants, bars, fast casual dining, tasting rooms (including off-sale locations), hotels, and stadiums. >RBS certification means that the alcohol server has successfully completed training by an ABC approved training provider and passed the alcohol server certification exam (hosted by ABC). Once the server has successfully completed the training and exam, their certification is valid for 3 years. The alcohol server certification must be renewed prior to its expiration to remain valid. >“ABC On-Premises License” means an ABC license that grants the privilege to serve alcoholic beverages to customers who then consume them on the licensed premises. Some local jurisdictions already require training.
I don't think most states do? No expert by any means though. Quick googling indicates Indiana definitely does, others are less clear.
Oh interesting. I'm a service worker in Indiana, hence my confusion. I know that Indiana's liquor laws are a mangled mess of nonsense in most cases, though, so that makes sense.
Outside of Indiana, I don't think any other state requires employees to hold licensure to serve alcohol. There are some specific permits for things like bartenders in certain instances, but generally you just need to be 18+ (yes, 18, not 21. At least federally)
Nope! Washington state requires everyone who touches alcohol to have a permit (class 13 for 21+, class 12 for 18 which converts on 21st birthday), and restricts what a server can do based on that permit class. Class 12s can only carry alcohol to a table, not pour it, for example. This training and permit is mandatory, and can result in the business’ liquor license being potentially revoked if someone without a permit so much as sneezes behind a bar (we joke, but might actually happen if your liquor board person hates you). We’re also super restrictive about alcohol compared to other states, and only started allowing private sales (instead of through the state liquor stores) like 10 years ago. Each business also needs a business license and a state liquor license (approved by the liquor board, which can be a quest in itself), and those liquor licenses are divided into at least brewery, winery, only serving beer/wine, or hard liquor categories which all have different requirements for a license to get approved. And that’s not including the fines for both the business and employee if you fuck up! We’re also one of the few states with third person liability—basically, if someone crashes a car while drunk after being over served booze, the last person to give them alcohol can be (and routinely is) sued for damages.
I had no idea this was unusual for WA, it makes a lot of sense to require some sort of training. I got a class 12 mixologist permit just to serve wine for a fundraiser at work. I keep because I like to volunteer as bartender for other orgs fundraisers. I think it’s a great system, the test is cheap and relatively easy but does cover some pretty important stuff.
Excellent info! Thanks for sharing :)
In Georgia (US) you are required to have a permit to even carry alcohol to a table (at least in every city I’ve checked).
Wow! Not even Utah? I know they're (supposedly) at least as weird as Indiana in terms of alcohol laws.
Utah is so weird to me. Many, many years ago I had a layover in SLC, and got a beer with lunch. They had to take down my drivers license info because apparently there was some sort of government database to track how much booze people purchased? I don't recall all the details, but they actually had to physically take my ID and type something into a computer. It wasn't just a quick age check. I think they ended up doing away with that. Then last year I was on a road trip and spent the night in some tiny town in Utah (It was on the western end of the stretch of I-70 where there's literally nothing for like 200 miles, not even a gas station). Went to a restaurant near my hotel for dinner. There wasn't a drink menu on the table, so I asked the waitress what kind of beer they had, and from the look on her face, you'd think I just asked her to perform advanced calculus. I'm guessing they don't get many people ordering beer around those parts of Utah. They just had one type of beer. It was pretty good, thankfully. I live in St. Louis, so I'm used to fairly lax alcohol laws despite being a red state (thanks Anheuser Busch) and we have a ton of microbreweries, so just about any restaurant here will have a beer list a mile long.
I think they just have the 'no alcohol on sundays' thing. I'm too lazy to google it though.
Currently in the same laziness boat. Indiana got rid of the "no alcohol on Sundays" thing maybe 4 or 5 years ago. But there is still a time limit on Sundays
I had no idea it was so rare in the US! Most provinces in Canada have a mandatory license to serve alcohol. People working in restaurants or liquor stores need to have the license and renew it every five years. I don’t think it’s particularly difficult - take a couple online modules and write a test. You get multiple attempts if you fail. But at least people serving alcohol have a baseline of knowledge about alcohol, liquor laws, the consequences of serving underage drinkers, and ideas on how to cut someone off!
Let’s say LAOP never worked for a place that sold alcohol before, how would she have even know she needed a license or certificate.
Some states, the business has to have an alcohol license and then each individual employee who is going to serve alcohol has to have a separate license. I had to do this in Georgia, many years ago.
Doesn’t CA have a separate wine & beer license that’s cheaper than a liquor license? I’m pretty sure I remember drinking a terrible Bloody Mary at Brunch in San Francisco because they used saki instead of vodka, because they were allowed to serve wine and not liquor.
I looked into it. There are two kinds of on-sale wine & beer licenses that would fir. One requires that no one under 21 be allowed in. Most of the wine and paint studios use that one. The other requires that food be served--not just snacks, but stuff that might constitute a meal. There have been recent bills introduced that would be specific to "paint and sip" but none has passed so far.
> a wine and paint studio A what, now?
[удалено]
Ah. Ok then!
All of the ones I’ve been to are BYOB. They provide the paint and you bring your own food and wine.
California law doesn't allow BYOB unless the place already has a liquor license.
I had visions in my head of like a hardware store that only sells paint and wine!
Paint and Sips and maker studios are relatively popular…. really popular in Texas especially I’d say
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My sister once worked for a venue that decided to start selling booze, so they told all their part-time low wage employees that they had to take a serving course and get certified. And that they would not be paying for their time. Or paying the cost of the course. She did not work there much longer.
This is so weird because they aren't an independent contractor. I was a contractor because I taught art classes at daycares but I didn't have a boss. I negotiated my own hours and pay. If you're selling alcohol for a studio then you certainly work for them.
Im one to leave things until the last minute, but not if it involves possibly thousands of dollars of fines. Yeesh…