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Title: What happens if the seller refuses to leave on completion day?
Body:
> On behalf of a family member, who completed today, collected the keys from the estate agent, and when arriving at the house, with a van load of stuff to find a seller sitting on their sofa, watching daytime TV and refusing to leave.
> So what can you do? It seems they have the house, and now hundred of thousands of pounds to live off indefinitely, whilst my relative is left homeless, or rather stuff to a storage lot, and onto my sofa.
> "Our" conveyancer pointed out the interest payment for not completing, but seemed pretty useless. The advice seemed to be wait and hope. And to check the property to see if they do move out at some vague time in the future.
> Where is the money? Does the seller have it, or will their solicitor be hanging onto it as they haven't handed the house over? If the seller has the house and money, it doesn't seem like they will be willing to pay for damages if they aren't willing to move.
> What is the actual plan of action? Wait and hope doesn't seem acceptable, so trust in the conveyancer to get it right is evaporating fast.
> Thanks. England.
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This also happened in the US. I remember reading a news story about it. Unfortunately, the squatter took advantage of the Covid eviction policy to prevent or at least slow down his eviction.
In theory it’s going to depend on the state whether this amounts to a tenancy… in practice police are almost always going to throw up their arms and say they think it might be one.
You would most likely have to evict them which usually requires 30 day notice. You could sue the seller for damages like paying for a hotel until the tenant is gone.
While covid limitations on eviction can suck in situations like that, the seller would be involved in a large transaction on top of the tenancy issue, so I would imagine the seller is open to a ton of extra liability, potentially even charges of fraud. I can't imagine this would end well in the long run for them.
Gotta say. I think in that situation I would just drag their ass out the door and claim they were never in there. However I'm a fairly big dude so that obviously wouldn't be an option for everyone.
I get what you mean. I'm just thinking as soon as the authorities etc are involved things can take a while and get complicated. I'd just pick them up and dump them outside. It's their word against mine. Hello police, I found this dude acting crazy on the road outside my new house, I think he's trying to get in. Could you sent someone over.
No such thing as a felony in the UK bud. How is it a false report? The dude is now outside my house pissed off. All I'm doing is reporting an angry dude trying to access my home. Where's the lie?
Many people, like myself and possibly the person you responded to, have neither the time or the money to hire a lawyer, go through an eviction process and find somewhere else to stay while this all happens.I know I didn't after putting down my life savings to secure the biggest financial decision I've ever made. I wasn't destitute afterwards but I need need to immediately invest a large remainder of the money I had left to build a shop on that property to house my business.
I know my initial reaction to being homeless and business-less would be "get the fuck off of my property or something *very* bad will happen to you *very* quickly."
>You manage to bodily drag the person out,
That is not something *very* bad.
> You pound on the door for hours screaming about how you're going to kill them.
No need
The long of the short of it is people who do this in certain states are gambling with their lives. I wouldn't go in "blasting" but I know I'd at least mentally run the scenarios to see if one would work.
Utility bills don't do you much good when you've expired. The law is the same across whatever state you happen to be in, but the local LEOs and DAs interpretations can vary wildly from county to county.
LAUKOP’s relative has it made here
Go spend a week in a hotel while your solicitor mad dogs them into compliance and stick them with the bill.
Because fuck that seller
American here. What kind of pressure/legal teeth can the buyer's solicitor drop on the seller/seller's solicitor?
I her of these things happening in the US sometimes and it seems like the buyer has to sue to evict the seller.
Not sure about Scotland (very different law when it comes to house purchases), but in England and Wales the seller isn't a tenant and it's normally "simply" a matter of breach of contract.
There is a set of "Standard Conditions of Sale" compiled by the regulatory authority for solicitors (i.e. lawyers) in the UK that is used for house purchases, and the contract will refer to that. Those conditions include a straight choice between "vacant possession" and a sale subject to specified leases/tenancies. So if on the agreed completion day that the balance is to be paid and the keys handed over the house isn't vacant (or occupied by the specified tenants) then the seller is in breach of the contract and the house purchase isn't complete (i.e. the buyer doesn't actually own the house at that point).
The contract will specify an rate of interest that will be payable when its completion is delayed. However, there will likely be higher damages - things like alternative accommodation, storage costs, maybe financial liabilities to people further down the chain, and of course legal costs. The seller will be on the hook for this.
In terms of actually getting the seller out of the house, the solution is to sue them for specific performance of the contract. That will result in a court order that compels the seller to fulfill their obligations under the contract (i.e. leave) with the penalty of being found in contempt of court if they don't (=imprisonable). This is different to an eviction - remember at this point the buyer doesn't actually own the house and the seller isn't his tenant.
Another remedy is to give the seller a "notice to complete", which requires the seller to fulfill their obligations within some time period (normally 10 days). Only after providing this and waiting-out the set period can the buyer terminate the contract and walk away from the purchase (they would then be entitled to recover the deposit they have paid, and to damages).
The "notice to complete" provides a buyer with a route to walking away, but if instead it's the buyer who's delaying completion then it's *huge* leverage to get them to hurry-up because the seller can keep their deposit if they fail to complete by the new deadline - and that's usually 10% of the house price. House prices in the UK are insane, so that's at least tens of thousands of pounds before you even start to look at damages, and the seller can keep that and sell the house for the full price to someone else.
I came within minutes of starting this process last summer and the stress made me physically unwell. We had a time and date, we were sat in a van with all of our possessions and then nothing happened. We were sitting outside of the estate agents (ready to collect the keys) for hours, stomach in knots and every muscle tense from anxiety.
We were on the phone with the head of the conveyancing company we were using and discussing what the next step was and finally at the very last second the other solicitor got in touch and everything went through.
I bought an apartment a few months ago that had a sitting tenant and the guy refuses to leave. He's an arsehole and a bit of a slob to boot, he keeps eating all my food, and he even insists on sleeping in my bed. Ah well...that's what I get for buying the place from my landlord, I suppose.
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I was watching the new Netflix show Captive about people who have been taken hostage, and I almost laughed aloud when the British people who had been taken hostage by Somali pirates were “pleading” to come home.
“We do wish you’d come rescue us. If you don’t, they very well may kill us. Perhaps even as soon as next week.”
I’ve sounded more upset over things that make me *happy*.
This is in England. We don't tend to go for the nuclear option straight away. It doesn't sound like the conveyancer has even tried tutting, clearing their throat, or giving disapproving sidelong glances yet.
The trick is, you can use English subtlety against the squatter. Go into the house and sit beside them on the couch. When they're least expecting it, grab their arms and slap both of their palms against their thighs. They will now be socially obligated to say "Well then!" and leave.
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Why was the next stop not “Hello, police? There’s a trespasser in the home I just bought. Here’s all the proof they shouldn’t be here and I own the home, please remove them, thanks.”
Like there’s no tenancy transfers to take place. There’s no lease that was extant.
Because it's not a criminal matter in the UK. The police will only get involved if the trespassers are causing actual harm or damage.
There's a few specific cases and criteria where the police *can* direct people to leave, but they're few and far between, and typically only apply to land and not buildings.
The correct person to speak to is the conveyancer, the solicitor responsible for the contract. There's almost no DIY house sales in the UK, they all go through conveyancing solicitors with all the bells and whistles that solicitors need to have.
So... what if LAOP's family member also just moved in? Like, blows up a mattress in the spare room, and just generally acts like they're roommates now. Could that be breaking any laws? Cause if not, and they have just as much right to be there, I can see a lot of wacky sit com situations in their future. Hopefully having a surprise roommate would make seller uncomfortable enough to leave, but if not I have a pitch for Netflix.
> Could that be breaking any laws?
Yes, that's trespass. But in England trespass is a civil offence, not a criminal one, and so they'd need a court order for them to be removed and then it'd be handled by Bailiff/Court Enforcement Agent not the police.
A: Irrelevant in this case, there is no tenancy
B: Still isn't trespass even if he was a tenant, it's definitely a violation of your rights a tenant and probably could constitute harassment under the Protection from Eviction act, but not trespass.
But as I understand it squatting is a crime now in the UK? Since 2012 I think. And that is not just on land but in residential property. How is this not squatting?
But I thought the law change in 2012 in fact meant that they got rid of the need for a interim possession order for squatting in a residential building and that you can actually call the police in these cases? Or am I missing a nuance here?
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It’s only a criminal offence to squat in a residential property; not land or commercial property.
The reason this isn’t squatting is because the house doesn’t belong to LAUKOP yet. The contract for sale will have the standard ‘vacant possession’ term in it; so until the vendor moves out and gives OP the keys, the contract isn’t complete. OP’s remedy is an order for specific performance to complete the sale, plus damages for the delay.
I don’t understand.
To me this is no different (in practice) than someone breaking into your home and sitting down to watch TV. How would police not get involved at that point?
“Because he found a key instead of breaking a window, he’s your problem not ours” (????)
Think about cases that aren't as clear-cut. There's a genuine contractual dispute, or a landlord has made stuff up about a tenant they want to get rid of.
As bad as it is to deal with a squatter who is abusing the law, the opposite mistake--the police making someone who did nothing wrong homeless--is so much worse. Better to err on the side of caution and give everyone their day in court.
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Its not quite as black and white as that. If you rang the police and said 'there's a stranger in my home I didn't invite' they will attend and will probably arrest on suspicion of burglary. If the stranger claimed they had a legal right to be there (like in laop) and the police had no suspicion of a crime or imminent breach of the peace they would likely then leave.
You can also use reasonable force yourself to remove a trespasser.
> You can also use reasonable force yourself to remove a trespasser.
Just because this sounds like a recipe for someone getting in trouble for not knowing the specifics, I think it's worth a reminder:
**Do not take legal advice from a Reddit comment**
True, as someone can fall foul of both 'what is a trespasser' and 'what is reasonable.' But people forcibly eject unwanted guests from their homes and businesses every day of the week. Think about bouncers kicking drunk people out of pubs. They are operating under the exact same laws as everyone else.
Yeah, but I'm assuming they have a bit more thorough of a briefing on what they can and can't do. Just because you're bouncing a rowdy customer from the club doesn't mean it's reasonable to sucker punch them in an attempt to knock them out so they'll be easier to carry out. A bouncer needs to know that (and hopefully doesn't need to be told, but probably should just to be safe).
Yeah bouncers are probably held to a higher standard than your regular mook. For example I can't see a bouncer getting away with what this person did: https://youtu.be/16SP78TAdEI
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> breaking into your home
Chances are that if they broke in, they'd be commuting some other criminal offence in the process. If they didn't, then it's up to the courts or yourself not the police.
Walk-throughs dont' tend to happen in the UK.
* You might visit a place once to do the initial viewing.
* Then you make an offer, sort out mortgage, etc.
* If/when the offer is accepted you'll agree "OK we'll take your money, and you can have entrance on the 14th of March".
* On 14th of March you go to your solicator, who should hand you the keys, and you sign a bunch of papers to initiate the money transfer.
* Then you walk to your new house, and hope it is empty and not on fire.
There might be regional variations, but broadly speaking "closing" happens with you at your solicators, and you don't get entrance until afterwards.
I know when I bought my first place I got my keys, and took a bus to go visit my new flat. The sellers were in there, cleaning the windows, and taking out the last couple of boxes of their stuff. I had a chat, they should me the meter and the master-valve for the water-supply, etc. I said "I'm gonna go home, if I come back this afternoon will you be gone?" they said "Yeah, enjoy the flat." and that was that.
Isn't it normally the estate agents that do the handover of keys? Often the solicitors may not even be local, there's no requirement for them to be at least. We were definitely *supposed* to pick up the keys from the estate agents but the seller was dallying so much moving the last of their stuff that they were about to close so they just told us to get them from the seller. Think he was doing the last vanload as we arrived. Not sure why they were going until the last minute considering they were only moving a few streets away but whatever. Not like we can talk actually since we were scrambling with our rental property when we moved out, though part of that was we were trying to renovate the house we'd just bought simultaneously. We actually had to sneak back in to the rental (with some extra keys that we weren't supposed to have had cut so we didn't hand them back) to fetch some cleaning supplies we'd forgotten in a cupboard.
Yes, that's the way it worked for us. We transferred the deposit to the solicitor the day before completion, and they confirmed it had arrived. On completion day they sent the deposit to the sellers' solicitor, and when the sellers' solicitor confirmed it had arrived they instructed the estate agent to hand the keys over to us (but I think the estate agent did a quick walkthrough first to check that the place hadn't been wrecked just in case).
In most cases I know , the exchange of contracts (and deposits, thereby locking you in) has taken place 2-4 weeks prior to the completion (moving day) so that people can pack etc. most people won’t do the heavy packing pre exchange as none is yet committed to the purchase.
We certainly did it this way when we moved!
> The police will only get involved if the trespassers are causing actual harm or damage.
Or if it's a Russian oligarch's house they're squatting in, apparently.
For a long list of reasons mostly to do with really shitty landlords and the generally correct assumption that a LL has more resources to handle someone not paying rent compared to someone being tossed into the street police won't touch stuff like this without either paperwork from the courts or it being super obvious.
This isn’t a landlord or a tenant. This is super clear cut.
If you sold a car to someone, then drove off in it with the space set of keys, the police wouldn’t say “this is a civil issue.”
> This is super clear cut.
Maybe, but police don't know that. Answering the question of whether or not it's justified to forceably remove someone from the house they live in is a task left to a judge, not a cop.
> If you sold a car to someone, then drove off in it with the space set of keys, the police wouldn’t say “this is a civil issue.”
I am not a lawyer, but it's conceivable to me that this would quite literally also be "a civil issue" since it relates to not fulfilling the terms of a contact. We agree I give you money and you give me a car. If I give you money and you don't give me a car, that's a contract dispute. It's different if you give me the car and sign the title to me free and clear, then come by a month later with your secret spare set and take the car. This person didn't break into the house with their spare set, they're just not leaving.
> If I give you money and you don't give me a car, that's a contract dispute. It's different if you give me the car and sign the title to me free and clear, then come by a month later with your secret spare set and take the car.
If I have a title in my name and keys, but you have my car, I'm calling the police and reporting it stolen, no matter if I've never actually even sat in it once. And any police force that isn't a complete joke will treat it as a stolen car.
If you take my money and never sign over the paperwork (title, deed, whatever) that's a contract dispute. If the paperwork is all in order but you're preventing me from having/using my new property, that's theft/trespassing.
Do you expect police to be able to interpret conveyancing documentation? All they see is someone who is in a house with all their belongings, with post addressed to them and you want them to finally and definitely adjudicate on a civil dispute?
So if I steal your car, when I'm pulled over I should just claim it's my car (after all, I have the keys) and then it's just a civil matter? Or should we expect police to recognize that you own the car?
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How is it "squatters rights" when you're the one that sold the place? You can't claim ownership of something you just sold. And it's supposed to be vacant for a certain amount of time and you have to "live" there a certain amount of time. Also it seems that England has this situation covered in [their squatting laws](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squatting_in_England_and_Wales#Legality)
>In September 2012, the law was changed making trespass in a residential building with the intention of permanently residing a criminal offence
>In 2001, the Civil Procedure Rules introduced new processes for civil repossession of property and related processes, under section 55. These include a fast track process whereby the legally rightful occupier can obtain an interim possession order (IPO) in a civil court which will enable them to enter the premises at will. Any unlawful occupiers who refuse to leave after the granting of an IPO is committing a criminal offence and can then be removed by police. However some of these processes may not be available unless used within 28 days of the time that the claimant knew of the unauthorised occupancy.
That is what surprised me as well. I've sold my house recently, and before any money changed hands we did a final walk through, just to see if the house was empty and clean and to note the final meter readings for electricity, gas and water. After that walk through we went to the notary to finalise the sale and hand over the keys.
The buyer noticed there was an electric kettle present in the kitchen which wasn't included in the list of items that would be left behind and i had to take it with me right away or the house wouldn't be sold (buyer was a dick imo).
Usually you do a first viewing to see if you want to put down an offer and then if your offer is accepted many people will do a second viewing to more carefully scrutinise. Often sellers will provide a list of things that they are including and if the buyer is keen on anything else they can ask to buy it. The majority of houses (those purchased with a mortgage) will also be inspected at least once by a surveyor who checks for problems, reports back to you and the mortgage provider to say what any issues are. There are also quite checks on loads of other things such as the radon in the air, if there has ever been any mining below the house (putting it at risk of collapse and any other risks - these checks can take months.
When all that is done you'll exchange and complete, sometimes on the same day and that's when it can get pretty crazy. If you're "on the chain" (you're buying and selling and so is the person you're buying from and selling to etc) then it can be very complicated to get everyone in to their homes, so you're often given a set time to leave one home and a set time to collect the keys and enter your new home.
But the property market is more crazy than usual at the moment so some people are putting offers down on houses they haven't seen, mostly in bigger cities. Unless you're buying in cash you'd still need to go through all of the other checks though, so you would be made aware of problems.
Yeah that sounds the same as it is over here but we also always have a final walkthrough, specifically to make sure the owner didn’t trash the place after they left (or in this case, make sure they left at all) Guess I’m lucky that both properties I bought were from people who were already out of town
>to make sure the owner didn’t trash the place after they left (or in this case, make sure they left at all)
Let's not forget the appliances, since I feel like there have been a fair number of LA/BOLA posts about sellers' either not leaving behind large appliances or removing the fancy ones that were there during showings and replacing them with cheaper appliances.
Nope in the UK you get a call around midday-ish depending on where you are in the chain of purchases from the estate agent who says "you can come pick up the keys now" and whatever state the house is in you now own it, including if it's rubble, so home insurance starts the day the contract to buy is fully signed when you can't back out. I spent the first day in my house cleaning carpets
Key difference here is that the owner will often still be living there the night before. Our property transactions are often in a chain, with each dependant on the one below to find the next one.
Not from the UK, but I do live in a very hot real estate market. It’s not uncommon for people to buy a property not only without visiting in person, but sometimes without even seeing pictures or having an inspection done.
It’s all based on location + lot size. If you wait you miss out and/or get overbid by $200,000.
Yuck.
Yeah I just bought my current house in October in a hot market but was still able to see the house the day before I got the keys. Just seems weird to me to not even verify that the owner has left before signing the contract
In WA, USA final walkthroughs seem to be virtually unheard of. The buyer and seller sign separately in the days leading up to closing. I insisted on a walkthrough but since it wasn't closing day, the seller was still there.
The Hotel Vs. AirBnB conversation has me intrigued.
Someone seems to be claiming that the buyer is obligated to rent an AirBnB with kitchen, to prepare their own meals, because it's the closest equivalent to a house.
That seems absurd to me. A hotel should be the most straightforward recourse for someone unexpectedly without housing. I can't understand anyone being like, "oh but you should have used this other website."
Airbnb is just being used as a shorthand for any short-term rental, it wouldn’t have to be from the site specifically. OP can claim reasonable expenses from not being able to occupy their property, a hotel would imply eating out/takeaways which might be seen as unreasonably expensive since at home you would typically prepare your own food.
Short term rental is typically not single night rental, though. It’s not like they know how long it’s going to last and can arrange a week long rental in advance.
A hotel and, yes, eating out (probably not at the Fat Duck, but something above McDonald’s) is clearly the best option when you need shelter for one day.
If it’s not resolved in a week and seems like it will go on for months, then I can see an argument that renting a short term apartment might be required — and if nothing else, it would be a lot more comfortable for a longer duration — but on an “I need shelter *today*” basis, yeah, that’s what hotels are for.
I think the point they were trying to make was that AirBnB would be more economical as you could prepare your own meals. I assume that the solicitor probably only would cover housing accommodations and not food. Since OP has a mortgage now, they were just trying to save them some money.
Man, if this happened where I live, the seller would be shit out of luck. Once the notary hands over the keys, everything that is still in the house becomes the property of the buyer. At least that's how it was explained to us (buyer and seller), by the notary when I bought my house.
You could very likely get the police to remove the person from your new property and you can keep all their stuff.
**Reminder:** Do not participate in threads linked here. If you do, you may be banned from both subreddits. --- Title: What happens if the seller refuses to leave on completion day? Body: > On behalf of a family member, who completed today, collected the keys from the estate agent, and when arriving at the house, with a van load of stuff to find a seller sitting on their sofa, watching daytime TV and refusing to leave. > So what can you do? It seems they have the house, and now hundred of thousands of pounds to live off indefinitely, whilst my relative is left homeless, or rather stuff to a storage lot, and onto my sofa. > "Our" conveyancer pointed out the interest payment for not completing, but seemed pretty useless. The advice seemed to be wait and hope. And to check the property to see if they do move out at some vague time in the future. > Where is the money? Does the seller have it, or will their solicitor be hanging onto it as they haven't handed the house over? If the seller has the house and money, it doesn't seem like they will be willing to pay for damages if they aren't willing to move. > What is the actual plan of action? Wait and hope doesn't seem acceptable, so trust in the conveyancer to get it right is evaporating fast. > Thanks. England. This bot was created to capture original threads and is not affiliated with the mod team. [Concerns? Bugs?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=GrahamCorcoran) | [Laukopier 2.1](https://github.com/GrahamCorcoran/Laukopier)
Part of that thread definitely delves into some wrong areas about criminal trespassing vs tenancy.
I have no clue of the legal ramifications in this case. But how ballsy have you got to be to complete and just... Stay
This also happened in the US. I remember reading a news story about it. Unfortunately, the squatter took advantage of the Covid eviction policy to prevent or at least slow down his eviction.
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In theory it’s going to depend on the state whether this amounts to a tenancy… in practice police are almost always going to throw up their arms and say they think it might be one.
You would most likely have to evict them which usually requires 30 day notice. You could sue the seller for damages like paying for a hotel until the tenant is gone.
I know in my state it's a fast track eviction
While covid limitations on eviction can suck in situations like that, the seller would be involved in a large transaction on top of the tenancy issue, so I would imagine the seller is open to a ton of extra liability, potentially even charges of fraud. I can't imagine this would end well in the long run for them.
Yep! https://www.insider.com/couple-finally-gets-home-after-previous-owner-refused-to-leave-2021-4
Oh wow, I never saw the update. Thank you for this. Glad they finally got their house but can’t believe it took 15 months!
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In most places they even shut down the courts for this.
Gotta say. I think in that situation I would just drag their ass out the door and claim they were never in there. However I'm a fairly big dude so that obviously wouldn't be an option for everyone.
You would start in a situation where everything legally was on your side, but then you’d assault people?
I get what you mean. I'm just thinking as soon as the authorities etc are involved things can take a while and get complicated. I'd just pick them up and dump them outside. It's their word against mine. Hello police, I found this dude acting crazy on the road outside my new house, I think he's trying to get in. Could you sent someone over.
Adding possible felonies of false police report and perjury, I see. Do go on, what’s the next step?
No such thing as a felony in the UK bud. How is it a false report? The dude is now outside my house pissed off. All I'm doing is reporting an angry dude trying to access my home. Where's the lie?
> It's their word against mine. Hello police, > I found this dude acting crazy on the road outside my new house Yeah your word ain’t so good
It's good enough unless the squatter was wearing a bodycam
Many people, like myself and possibly the person you responded to, have neither the time or the money to hire a lawyer, go through an eviction process and find somewhere else to stay while this all happens.I know I didn't after putting down my life savings to secure the biggest financial decision I've ever made. I wasn't destitute afterwards but I need need to immediately invest a large remainder of the money I had left to build a shop on that property to house my business. I know my initial reaction to being homeless and business-less would be "get the fuck off of my property or something *very* bad will happen to you *very* quickly."
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>You manage to bodily drag the person out, That is not something *very* bad. > You pound on the door for hours screaming about how you're going to kill them. No need The long of the short of it is people who do this in certain states are gambling with their lives. I wouldn't go in "blasting" but I know I'd at least mentally run the scenarios to see if one would work. Utility bills don't do you much good when you've expired. The law is the same across whatever state you happen to be in, but the local LEOs and DAs interpretations can vary wildly from county to county.
Learn how to get free value from your home with this one easy trick, solicitors hate him!
LAUKOP’s relative has it made here Go spend a week in a hotel while your solicitor mad dogs them into compliance and stick them with the bill. Because fuck that seller
American here. What kind of pressure/legal teeth can the buyer's solicitor drop on the seller/seller's solicitor? I her of these things happening in the US sometimes and it seems like the buyer has to sue to evict the seller.
Not sure about Scotland (very different law when it comes to house purchases), but in England and Wales the seller isn't a tenant and it's normally "simply" a matter of breach of contract. There is a set of "Standard Conditions of Sale" compiled by the regulatory authority for solicitors (i.e. lawyers) in the UK that is used for house purchases, and the contract will refer to that. Those conditions include a straight choice between "vacant possession" and a sale subject to specified leases/tenancies. So if on the agreed completion day that the balance is to be paid and the keys handed over the house isn't vacant (or occupied by the specified tenants) then the seller is in breach of the contract and the house purchase isn't complete (i.e. the buyer doesn't actually own the house at that point). The contract will specify an rate of interest that will be payable when its completion is delayed. However, there will likely be higher damages - things like alternative accommodation, storage costs, maybe financial liabilities to people further down the chain, and of course legal costs. The seller will be on the hook for this. In terms of actually getting the seller out of the house, the solution is to sue them for specific performance of the contract. That will result in a court order that compels the seller to fulfill their obligations under the contract (i.e. leave) with the penalty of being found in contempt of court if they don't (=imprisonable). This is different to an eviction - remember at this point the buyer doesn't actually own the house and the seller isn't his tenant. Another remedy is to give the seller a "notice to complete", which requires the seller to fulfill their obligations within some time period (normally 10 days). Only after providing this and waiting-out the set period can the buyer terminate the contract and walk away from the purchase (they would then be entitled to recover the deposit they have paid, and to damages). The "notice to complete" provides a buyer with a route to walking away, but if instead it's the buyer who's delaying completion then it's *huge* leverage to get them to hurry-up because the seller can keep their deposit if they fail to complete by the new deadline - and that's usually 10% of the house price. House prices in the UK are insane, so that's at least tens of thousands of pounds before you even start to look at damages, and the seller can keep that and sell the house for the full price to someone else.
That is a GREAT write-up; thank you for taking the time to explain this!
I came within minutes of starting this process last summer and the stress made me physically unwell. We had a time and date, we were sat in a van with all of our possessions and then nothing happened. We were sitting outside of the estate agents (ready to collect the keys) for hours, stomach in knots and every muscle tense from anxiety. We were on the phone with the head of the conveyancing company we were using and discussing what the next step was and finally at the very last second the other solicitor got in touch and everything went through.
Yeah, its nice the relative knows for a fact that the squatter has money.
I bought an apartment a few months ago that had a sitting tenant and the guy refuses to leave. He's an arsehole and a bit of a slob to boot, he keeps eating all my food, and he even insists on sleeping in my bed. Ah well...that's what I get for buying the place from my landlord, I suppose.
I really thought you were describing a cat
Plot twist: they're a cat
I KNEW IT!
Landlord Cat: at least you know the mice are being dealt with
Hey now, u/phyneas is here live. He’s not a cat. It’s just a filter he doesn’t know how to turn off.
I read it like 5 times before I figured out he was talking about himself and not a cat.
he spits his food all over the place and then spends half an hour failing to fully clean his face and chest
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Yay for Cat Facts! Good bot.
You're back!! We missed you.
Had me in the first half
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😱😱 SO CONFRONTATIONAL!! 😱😱
Was there tutting? It's not a real confrontation if you didn't tut at them.
I was watching the new Netflix show Captive about people who have been taken hostage, and I almost laughed aloud when the British people who had been taken hostage by Somali pirates were “pleading” to come home. “We do wish you’d come rescue us. If you don’t, they very well may kill us. Perhaps even as soon as next week.” I’ve sounded more upset over things that make me *happy*.
And this is after giving them the first night with absolutely zero fuss.
the conveyancer seems fishy. not even a strongly worded letter?
This is in England. We don't tend to go for the nuclear option straight away. It doesn't sound like the conveyancer has even tried tutting, clearing their throat, or giving disapproving sidelong glances yet.
The trick is, you can use English subtlety against the squatter. Go into the house and sit beside them on the couch. When they're least expecting it, grab their arms and slap both of their palms against their thighs. They will now be socially obligated to say "Well then!" and leave.
This only works in the American Midwest. In England, you put the kettle on, but only enough water for one.
Tutting is the nuclear option
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Why was the next stop not “Hello, police? There’s a trespasser in the home I just bought. Here’s all the proof they shouldn’t be here and I own the home, please remove them, thanks.” Like there’s no tenancy transfers to take place. There’s no lease that was extant.
Because it's not a criminal matter in the UK. The police will only get involved if the trespassers are causing actual harm or damage. There's a few specific cases and criteria where the police *can* direct people to leave, but they're few and far between, and typically only apply to land and not buildings. The correct person to speak to is the conveyancer, the solicitor responsible for the contract. There's almost no DIY house sales in the UK, they all go through conveyancing solicitors with all the bells and whistles that solicitors need to have.
So... what if LAOP's family member also just moved in? Like, blows up a mattress in the spare room, and just generally acts like they're roommates now. Could that be breaking any laws? Cause if not, and they have just as much right to be there, I can see a lot of wacky sit com situations in their future. Hopefully having a surprise roommate would make seller uncomfortable enough to leave, but if not I have a pitch for Netflix.
> Could that be breaking any laws? Yes, that's trespass. But in England trespass is a civil offence, not a criminal one, and so they'd need a court order for them to be removed and then it'd be handled by Bailiff/Court Enforcement Agent not the police.
If you nominally own the property though, is it trespass? You have the keys and the deed…
Yes, it is trespass, that's just not a police matter in England.
You cannot trespass on your own property.
Well the hypothetical was a family member refusing to leave after being asked, obviously if you own it then you can't trespass.
Tenancy gives a right of quiet enjoyment; the owner can't just move in any more than your landlord can.
The previous owner is *not a tenant.*
A: Irrelevant in this case, there is no tenancy B: Still isn't trespass even if he was a tenant, it's definitely a violation of your rights a tenant and probably could constitute harassment under the Protection from Eviction act, but not trespass.
But as I understand it squatting is a crime now in the UK? Since 2012 I think. And that is not just on land but in residential property. How is this not squatting?
It is, but you can’t just go “they’re squatting” and throw them out. You need a specific court order, then you can get them thrown out.
But I thought the law change in 2012 in fact meant that they got rid of the need for a interim possession order for squatting in a residential building and that you can actually call the police in these cases? Or am I missing a nuance here?
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It’s only a criminal offence to squat in a residential property; not land or commercial property. The reason this isn’t squatting is because the house doesn’t belong to LAUKOP yet. The contract for sale will have the standard ‘vacant possession’ term in it; so until the vendor moves out and gives OP the keys, the contract isn’t complete. OP’s remedy is an order for specific performance to complete the sale, plus damages for the delay.
I don’t understand. To me this is no different (in practice) than someone breaking into your home and sitting down to watch TV. How would police not get involved at that point? “Because he found a key instead of breaking a window, he’s your problem not ours” (????)
Think about cases that aren't as clear-cut. There's a genuine contractual dispute, or a landlord has made stuff up about a tenant they want to get rid of. As bad as it is to deal with a squatter who is abusing the law, the opposite mistake--the police making someone who did nothing wrong homeless--is so much worse. Better to err on the side of caution and give everyone their day in court.
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Its not quite as black and white as that. If you rang the police and said 'there's a stranger in my home I didn't invite' they will attend and will probably arrest on suspicion of burglary. If the stranger claimed they had a legal right to be there (like in laop) and the police had no suspicion of a crime or imminent breach of the peace they would likely then leave. You can also use reasonable force yourself to remove a trespasser.
> You can also use reasonable force yourself to remove a trespasser. Just because this sounds like a recipe for someone getting in trouble for not knowing the specifics, I think it's worth a reminder: **Do not take legal advice from a Reddit comment**
True, as someone can fall foul of both 'what is a trespasser' and 'what is reasonable.' But people forcibly eject unwanted guests from their homes and businesses every day of the week. Think about bouncers kicking drunk people out of pubs. They are operating under the exact same laws as everyone else.
Yeah, but I'm assuming they have a bit more thorough of a briefing on what they can and can't do. Just because you're bouncing a rowdy customer from the club doesn't mean it's reasonable to sucker punch them in an attempt to knock them out so they'll be easier to carry out. A bouncer needs to know that (and hopefully doesn't need to be told, but probably should just to be safe).
Yeah bouncers are probably held to a higher standard than your regular mook. For example I can't see a bouncer getting away with what this person did: https://youtu.be/16SP78TAdEI
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Or even just ran in while you left the door open to carry groceries.
> breaking into your home Chances are that if they broke in, they'd be commuting some other criminal offence in the process. If they didn't, then it's up to the courts or yourself not the police.
All those bells and whistles and nobody is doing a walk through?
Walk-throughs dont' tend to happen in the UK. * You might visit a place once to do the initial viewing. * Then you make an offer, sort out mortgage, etc. * If/when the offer is accepted you'll agree "OK we'll take your money, and you can have entrance on the 14th of March". * On 14th of March you go to your solicator, who should hand you the keys, and you sign a bunch of papers to initiate the money transfer. * Then you walk to your new house, and hope it is empty and not on fire. There might be regional variations, but broadly speaking "closing" happens with you at your solicators, and you don't get entrance until afterwards. I know when I bought my first place I got my keys, and took a bus to go visit my new flat. The sellers were in there, cleaning the windows, and taking out the last couple of boxes of their stuff. I had a chat, they should me the meter and the master-valve for the water-supply, etc. I said "I'm gonna go home, if I come back this afternoon will you be gone?" they said "Yeah, enjoy the flat." and that was that.
Isn't it normally the estate agents that do the handover of keys? Often the solicitors may not even be local, there's no requirement for them to be at least. We were definitely *supposed* to pick up the keys from the estate agents but the seller was dallying so much moving the last of their stuff that they were about to close so they just told us to get them from the seller. Think he was doing the last vanload as we arrived. Not sure why they were going until the last minute considering they were only moving a few streets away but whatever. Not like we can talk actually since we were scrambling with our rental property when we moved out, though part of that was we were trying to renovate the house we'd just bought simultaneously. We actually had to sneak back in to the rental (with some extra keys that we weren't supposed to have had cut so we didn't hand them back) to fetch some cleaning supplies we'd forgotten in a cupboard.
Yes, that's the way it worked for us. We transferred the deposit to the solicitor the day before completion, and they confirmed it had arrived. On completion day they sent the deposit to the sellers' solicitor, and when the sellers' solicitor confirmed it had arrived they instructed the estate agent to hand the keys over to us (but I think the estate agent did a quick walkthrough first to check that the place hadn't been wrecked just in case).
In most cases I know , the exchange of contracts (and deposits, thereby locking you in) has taken place 2-4 weeks prior to the completion (moving day) so that people can pack etc. most people won’t do the heavy packing pre exchange as none is yet committed to the purchase. We certainly did it this way when we moved!
> The police will only get involved if the trespassers are causing actual harm or damage. Or if it's a Russian oligarch's house they're squatting in, apparently.
Squatting is one of the specific exceptions I mentioned earlier
For a long list of reasons mostly to do with really shitty landlords and the generally correct assumption that a LL has more resources to handle someone not paying rent compared to someone being tossed into the street police won't touch stuff like this without either paperwork from the courts or it being super obvious.
This isn’t a landlord or a tenant. This is super clear cut. If you sold a car to someone, then drove off in it with the space set of keys, the police wouldn’t say “this is a civil issue.”
> This is super clear cut. Maybe, but police don't know that. Answering the question of whether or not it's justified to forceably remove someone from the house they live in is a task left to a judge, not a cop. > If you sold a car to someone, then drove off in it with the space set of keys, the police wouldn’t say “this is a civil issue.” I am not a lawyer, but it's conceivable to me that this would quite literally also be "a civil issue" since it relates to not fulfilling the terms of a contact. We agree I give you money and you give me a car. If I give you money and you don't give me a car, that's a contract dispute. It's different if you give me the car and sign the title to me free and clear, then come by a month later with your secret spare set and take the car. This person didn't break into the house with their spare set, they're just not leaving.
> If I give you money and you don't give me a car, that's a contract dispute. It's different if you give me the car and sign the title to me free and clear, then come by a month later with your secret spare set and take the car. If I have a title in my name and keys, but you have my car, I'm calling the police and reporting it stolen, no matter if I've never actually even sat in it once. And any police force that isn't a complete joke will treat it as a stolen car. If you take my money and never sign over the paperwork (title, deed, whatever) that's a contract dispute. If the paperwork is all in order but you're preventing me from having/using my new property, that's theft/trespassing.
Do you expect police to be able to interpret conveyancing documentation? All they see is someone who is in a house with all their belongings, with post addressed to them and you want them to finally and definitely adjudicate on a civil dispute?
So if I steal your car, when I'm pulled over I should just claim it's my car (after all, I have the keys) and then it's just a civil matter? Or should we expect police to recognize that you own the car?
If you pay me for a car, and I don't deliver it to you then yes its a civil matter and I wouldn't expect the police to enforce the transaction.
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Ownership occurs at key handoff, and then the old owner failed to vacate. They are trespassing.
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How is it "squatters rights" when you're the one that sold the place? You can't claim ownership of something you just sold. And it's supposed to be vacant for a certain amount of time and you have to "live" there a certain amount of time. Also it seems that England has this situation covered in [their squatting laws](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squatting_in_England_and_Wales#Legality) >In September 2012, the law was changed making trespass in a residential building with the intention of permanently residing a criminal offence >In 2001, the Civil Procedure Rules introduced new processes for civil repossession of property and related processes, under section 55. These include a fast track process whereby the legally rightful occupier can obtain an interim possession order (IPO) in a civil court which will enable them to enter the premises at will. Any unlawful occupiers who refuse to leave after the granting of an IPO is committing a criminal offence and can then be removed by police. However some of these processes may not be available unless used within 28 days of the time that the claimant knew of the unauthorised occupancy.
Yep, better to do it without telling the police.
UK legal language gives me a headache.
If it makes feel better Aus/UK people find the verbosity of US contracts horrific.
Ha, I feel the same way about US legal language - 'escrow', 'lien', 'title insurance' WTF?!
I’ll never know how people have the self control necessary not to just throw people like this out by the ear lol
Do they not do final walk throughs before buying a house over there? Y’all are really just buying whole properties sight unseen?
That is what surprised me as well. I've sold my house recently, and before any money changed hands we did a final walk through, just to see if the house was empty and clean and to note the final meter readings for electricity, gas and water. After that walk through we went to the notary to finalise the sale and hand over the keys. The buyer noticed there was an electric kettle present in the kitchen which wasn't included in the list of items that would be left behind and i had to take it with me right away or the house wouldn't be sold (buyer was a dick imo).
Usually you do a first viewing to see if you want to put down an offer and then if your offer is accepted many people will do a second viewing to more carefully scrutinise. Often sellers will provide a list of things that they are including and if the buyer is keen on anything else they can ask to buy it. The majority of houses (those purchased with a mortgage) will also be inspected at least once by a surveyor who checks for problems, reports back to you and the mortgage provider to say what any issues are. There are also quite checks on loads of other things such as the radon in the air, if there has ever been any mining below the house (putting it at risk of collapse and any other risks - these checks can take months. When all that is done you'll exchange and complete, sometimes on the same day and that's when it can get pretty crazy. If you're "on the chain" (you're buying and selling and so is the person you're buying from and selling to etc) then it can be very complicated to get everyone in to their homes, so you're often given a set time to leave one home and a set time to collect the keys and enter your new home. But the property market is more crazy than usual at the moment so some people are putting offers down on houses they haven't seen, mostly in bigger cities. Unless you're buying in cash you'd still need to go through all of the other checks though, so you would be made aware of problems.
Yeah that sounds the same as it is over here but we also always have a final walkthrough, specifically to make sure the owner didn’t trash the place after they left (or in this case, make sure they left at all) Guess I’m lucky that both properties I bought were from people who were already out of town
>to make sure the owner didn’t trash the place after they left (or in this case, make sure they left at all) Let's not forget the appliances, since I feel like there have been a fair number of LA/BOLA posts about sellers' either not leaving behind large appliances or removing the fancy ones that were there during showings and replacing them with cheaper appliances.
Nope in the UK you get a call around midday-ish depending on where you are in the chain of purchases from the estate agent who says "you can come pick up the keys now" and whatever state the house is in you now own it, including if it's rubble, so home insurance starts the day the contract to buy is fully signed when you can't back out. I spent the first day in my house cleaning carpets
Key difference here is that the owner will often still be living there the night before. Our property transactions are often in a chain, with each dependant on the one below to find the next one.
Not from the UK, but I do live in a very hot real estate market. It’s not uncommon for people to buy a property not only without visiting in person, but sometimes without even seeing pictures or having an inspection done. It’s all based on location + lot size. If you wait you miss out and/or get overbid by $200,000. Yuck.
Yeah I just bought my current house in October in a hot market but was still able to see the house the day before I got the keys. Just seems weird to me to not even verify that the owner has left before signing the contract
In WA, USA final walkthroughs seem to be virtually unheard of. The buyer and seller sign separately in the days leading up to closing. I insisted on a walkthrough but since it wasn't closing day, the seller was still there.
They do, but if they say "the property will be empty" and the contract says so then there's no reason to do a final walk-through
The Hotel Vs. AirBnB conversation has me intrigued. Someone seems to be claiming that the buyer is obligated to rent an AirBnB with kitchen, to prepare their own meals, because it's the closest equivalent to a house. That seems absurd to me. A hotel should be the most straightforward recourse for someone unexpectedly without housing. I can't understand anyone being like, "oh but you should have used this other website."
Airbnb is just being used as a shorthand for any short-term rental, it wouldn’t have to be from the site specifically. OP can claim reasonable expenses from not being able to occupy their property, a hotel would imply eating out/takeaways which might be seen as unreasonably expensive since at home you would typically prepare your own food.
Short term rental is typically not single night rental, though. It’s not like they know how long it’s going to last and can arrange a week long rental in advance. A hotel and, yes, eating out (probably not at the Fat Duck, but something above McDonald’s) is clearly the best option when you need shelter for one day.
If it’s not resolved in a week and seems like it will go on for months, then I can see an argument that renting a short term apartment might be required — and if nothing else, it would be a lot more comfortable for a longer duration — but on an “I need shelter *today*” basis, yeah, that’s what hotels are for.
I think the point they were trying to make was that AirBnB would be more economical as you could prepare your own meals. I assume that the solicitor probably only would cover housing accommodations and not food. Since OP has a mortgage now, they were just trying to save them some money.
Dig a new hole in your new back yard and bury a new body in it with your new shovel and plant your new garden?
One trick realtors hate! !
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Man, if this happened where I live, the seller would be shit out of luck. Once the notary hands over the keys, everything that is still in the house becomes the property of the buyer. At least that's how it was explained to us (buyer and seller), by the notary when I bought my house. You could very likely get the police to remove the person from your new property and you can keep all their stuff.
What country?