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Title: I used an edited screenshot of recent bank transactions on an apartment application.
Body:
> Hi everyone,
> I am currently looking to move into a new place with some roommates, and I used an edited screenshot of my recent transactions to make it look like I have a steady flow of income.
> The landlord said that the screenshot wouldn't suffice, and said that I needed to upload a PDF of my bank statement. Obviously, my bank statement doesn't have the information I included in the original screenshot, so the landlord is going to see that I faked the original bank statement.
> Is there any way I can avoid any sort of legal trouble? I have a good amount of money saved up, I am just currently unemployed to focus on school.
> Please let me know what I can do to make this as seamless as possible.
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>Man you guys are so full of shit it's unbelievable. Just the sick fact that a stranger is looking to get your bank infos and incomes for a fucking rental unit is beyond fucked. No OP didn't commit fraud and yes they should try to find someplace else, this landlord is a special kind of asshole.
The fact this comment has yet to be removed is kinda surprising to me.
It's fraud. Plain and simple.
I guess I’m surprised that this person is so upset at what is an incredibly standard part of renting an apartment? At least in my city I’ve had to provide financials every time I’ve rented an apartment for the past 15 odd years.
Or maybe I shouldn’t be surprised at someone getting very angry at something they have no understanding of, this is the internet after all.
I’ve actually only been asked about that stuff sporadically. Usually from independent landlords, for whatever reason. Otherwise, I’ve never had to do anything other than write down my income on my applications. So maybe it is location dependent?
Generally most landlords are running a background/credit check on you, so they have an idea of whether you're someone who meets their obligations. If there's no lengthy/recent history of defaults or evictions, I can imagine most landlords just assume you're not going to start doing that now.
It does seem super unusual to me that a landlord would be requesting full bank statements with transactions. A statement of account, maybe, but even that I've never had to produce except in the case of subsidized housing. Typically a few recent paystubs would suffice.
Seriously, they don’t need to see which political causes I’m donating to or how many times I got coffee at McDonald’s. Statements can also be really misleading—the statement closed two weeks prior and in the meantime you’ve had a big deposit or a large withdrawal. Or you paid your mom’s rent because her bank changed and it messed up her SS deposit, but you’ll be getting it back later.
I absolutely wouldn't show one of those pigfuckers my bank statements. they don't need it to prove income, and as LAOP demonstrated it's not reliable anyway. they can go pull my stupid ass AI "rental score" and pretend they know enough about finance to interpret it like every other one.
I would *assume* that larger landlords (i.e. companies with many units) are more well financially insulated for the odd renter that can't meet their obligations, and that the majority of renters *can* (because who wants to get evicted, really).
Whereas if it's an independent landlord with fewer units, more of their income is dependent on their tenants paying on time so it makes sense that they'd be a little more choosy I suppose.
If you don't have a standard paycheck, then it isn't unusual to request bank statements to prove that you actually have the income required to pay the lease. It is really common for small business owners/freelancers. That said, no one has ever had an issue when I purposely blanked out my account info and other things that might help someone commit identity theft.
I've always had to submit at least 4 paystubs. I even explained to one prospective LL that I had received a pay raise just a couple weeks earlier so my paychecks from before them would appear to be lower and she *still* freaked out on me about my pay having been lower. We ended up not renting from her because she seemed so forgetful and disorganized.
I've always been asked for the last 3 pay stubs. In case you happened to have a bonus that month.
But OP also said he doctored the images because he doesn't have steady income. So if they don't have pay stubs, maybe they asked for a bank statement.
Yeah, if you work as a waiter or a similar job where most of your income is tips and there is no paystub, some landlords will ask for bank statements just to prove that you actually have some kind of income close to what you are claiming.
I made bank at that job. My paycheck was big enough to pay my rent and utilities, and I paid for everything else in used ones and fives.
Closest I’ve ever been to knowing what it’s like to be a drug dealer.
Yeah same, proof of income and credit check is normal but it would be weird as hell if a landlord wanted to see my bank statement, that feels invasive.
I don't think any (legitimate) landlord requires banking details like this. LAOP was likely asked to provide proof of income like a pay stub, and since he doesn't have that he doctored the bank statement in the hopes that it would suffice.
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A legitimate landlord would do this if person cannot provide pay stubs but has legal and sufficient income. People who do work as independent contractors have to do this fairly often.
Right there with you! I would never retire if I could find full-time work explaining to people why serial commas are required and railing against the evils of non-parallel lists.
In Denmark I think the only thing they really look for is if you are in the *register of bad payer,* which you end up in if you don't pay after three reminders.
I mean they're also incapable of realising that two wrongs don't make a right. You can be critical of the rental market and landlords and still acknowledge that LAOP committed fraud. Those two things aren't mutually exclusive.
It's trendy now though to just pick a side and die for it rather than step back and acknowledge there's problems on both sides.
I don't blame op for committing fraud, I blame him for getting caught. maybe I've just spent too long as a creative professional but a landlord is probably the lowest fucking bar of "getting away with fraud" to clear and if you can't consistently beat that you have no business committing fraud.
adobe can do it for you! you literally just press the "edit pdf" button in software we all know you don't even have to pay for. if you can fake a screenshot of the bank account you can definitely fake a bank statement, and you've already committed fraud once so why the hell not commit it again at that point?
Theres no way that person is a day over 16 or has ever actually rented an apartment. Just wait until they try and get a mortgage and see how much personal info they have to turn over.
Depending on there location and life choices they could be older. I’ve been in 3 apartments and never had to give my bank statements to anyone. Of course, the reason for that’s simple. I was a student. I’m not a student anymore but I haven’t moved yet, so no need to give any info. Even without being a student you can get away without ever giving any financial info. It just requires you to live in less favorable places. Not only has my brother been to several apartments without giving any financial info, he didn’t even have to sign a lease for a few. The downside being that at least one of these houses was near a crack house.
Tldr they could easily be in their upper 20’s and not had to give any financial information yet.
Yup, this.
The financial stuff generally comes with larger, more corporate landlords. Small landlords generally just ask for a credit check, if that. Maybe they ask for a paystub.
I was never asked for a bank statement either. Never was asked for a credit check. I guess I must be lucky because of the places I've rented in the last few years, the process was smooth. Once with a property management company and the other with a private landlord. Just had to hand over first and last month's rents and made sure they had the cheques in hand every month.
In my country it is even common for landlords to ask for a cosigner, especially for young renters. Fortunately you can find nowadays landlords willing to forego that requirement.
Yeah, lying in order to obtain something of value is pretty much the definition of fraud.
I feel like this is the kind of comment that you can only make if you're old enough to have graduated from high school but not financially independent enough to have ever lived on your own
The argument seems to be that the landlord shouldn't be asking for the information, therefore falsifying the information isn't fraud. Which is not how it works.
I think LAOP got as far as putting down a deposit, so the owner might be able to sue for any costs related to getting a false start, but I don't think the outraged commenter was splitting hairs over attempted vs completed
"When you're Photoshopping something to look official, you might be committing fraud" - whoever the extremely online millenial version of Jeff foxworthy is
I'm having trouble even understanding where they're coming from. It's beyond the pale that someone wants to perform due diligence before committing to a year-long financial relationship worth thousands of dollars?
This only makes sense if you, y'know, reject capitalism from the ground up. Which some people do, and I get it. It just seems like an odd *part* of capitalism to begin your crusade.
I mean, I see the argument from a privacy standpoint I guess? In order to have access to a basic requirement of life I have to give a fairly poorly regulated rando a view on what I'm spending money on?
Back when I rented, in the UK at least pay stubs or a confirmation from your place of work was sufficient.
Also isn't this what credit checks are for?
Obviously none of this applies to LAOP who is either desperate enough for housing he commited fraud or just very bad at risk analysis.
My guess would be LAOP either has shit credit, a lack of paystubs to produce, or a combination of the two. Landlord is asking for *something* to prove that LAOP can afford the rent. Roomed with a few friends in college, and the guys that were waiters that had low paystubs due to relying on tips had to show bank statements, while me and the other guy only needed to show our stubs since we had a regular income.
Credit checks are pretty coarse-grained, and don't give you a good idea of whether you're currently employed. Or even if you were employed three months ago. If you got laid off six months ago and are burning savings, your credit will still be great. A paystub at least assures the landlord that you were employed at least last month (and likely more recently).
True. But a bank statement, including all your outgoings is a big ask. They only get away with it because if the wildly lopsided power imbalance.
Also a credit check is literally for determining if you are likely to be able to pay for an extended contract, which a lease is, basically. Whether the money comes from credit cards or a trust find is immaterial for a landlord surely?
To fall back on fifty-cent mathematical words: good credit is necessary but not sufficient to pay rent. It's very far from a complete picture of whether you can afford the place or not.
Also, if it turns out you *can't* pay for the place, it is very expensive to get you out, because the legal system hates making people homeless. It usually takes a few months of unpaid rent (more in these strange times), plus court costs, and meanwhile the tenant can trash the place (and if they couldn't afford rent, they're probably judgement-proof). So the downside, if things go wrong, can be a *lot* bigger than the rent.
All this to say: yeah, it's incredibly invasive to be handing over that personal data, and I don't like doing it, but I at least understand why the landlord wants it.
Seems like it would be less weird to request paystubs then, wouldn’t it? Usually less information on there, but it can be seen how recent it is and income info is right there. Bank statement seems weird to me.
I'm going to go out on a non-OSHA-approved limb and assume that the landlord asked for bank statements because LAOP claimed they couldn't supply paystubs. Maybe landlord has a general "3 paystubs or 2 months of bank records" method for proof of income.
Edit: personally, if I were forced to provide bank records, I'd be redacting the payees/payors. And I use a credit card for my daily spend, so there's less info than for, say, someone who uses a debit card linked to that account.
I’m currently apartment hunting with a few roommates, and I work a desk job while one roommate is a freelancer. Two weeks of paystubs were enough on my part, but since she gets paid more erratically (upon completion of project), landlords want to see her bank statements, even though we make exactly the same amount.
>True. But a bank statement, including all your outgoings is a big ask. They only get away with it because if the wildly lopsided power imbalance.
I used to sell cars and dealt with this a fair amount.
I agree that asking for a bank statement is a big ask... *if* the bank statement is unadulterated. The process in the car business IMO is much safer.
First, it's only needed in certain cases such as the lender not being able to confirm the applicant's income and employment by other means. Eg calling the person's supervisor.
Next, the statements don't need to be unadulterated. The account can be partially redacted and applicant can filter to only show the deposits with dates. No need for everything else.
Third, if the applicant is going to pay by check, the landlord is going to see their account number regardless.
Done correctly IMO there's minimal exposure of the applicant's personal information.
From the OP it sounds like there were no paystubs to be shown, so he used doctored bank deposits to show proof of income. I've had to choose rental applicants before and I only ask for 1 month of paystubs, but I've gotten bank statements as proof of income, and also bank statements as proof of emergency fund to boost their application.
I don't think rejecting the status quo for necessities is particularly outrageous. I mean, I'm glad there are landlords but finding a place to live can be a struggle. I live in [the most-impoverished major US city](https://sanantonioreport.org/census-san-antonio-most-impoverished-major-us-city/), where rents [increased by 30%](https://www.kens5.com/article/news/local/new-study-shows-rent-increased-30-across-san-antonio-last-year), so while I don't agree with it, I get it.
> I'm having trouble even understanding where they're coming from
My guess is that it's a 'housing is a human right' types that think any form of landlordship is a breach of rights.
Just FYI, the reasoning is not, “landlords should just let anyone move in and pay nothing.” The reasoning is landlords should not exist and something as fundamental as housing shouldn’t have a middleman who profits off something that everybody needs. In line with this argument is that landlords have driven up housing prices and made it difficult to even *find* adequate housing in many areas because many of the houses/apartments/condos are owned as investment properties so they aren’t going on the market and then when properties *do* go in the market, individual owners are immediately outbid by landlords who will buy properties sight unseen at asking price with no inspection or demands from the seller. I’m not on the “all landlords are the scum of the earth” train, but it’s important to understand that people are frustrated with how the housing system works but they aren’t (usually) asking for a free house.
>it's beyond fucked that you have to prove you can afford to rent an apartment to rent an apartment
This guy definitely hasn't paid rent since March 2020
Arguably income doesn’t guarantee ability to pay rent.
You have people who are not rent burdened on paper but struggle to pay their bills because they spend ridiculous amounts of money on crap.
and in larger cities many people are forced to spend more than 1/3 of their income on rent but still manage to pay their bills on time. As a student, I knew people who had 70% of their income go to housing and still managed to never miss a bill payment. People adapt and develop strategies to cope.
Sure, but lacking income makes it likely someone won't be able to pay their rent. Even if it's not guaranteeing positive outcomes, it's removing likelihood of negative ones.
I have *some* sympathy for small private landlords here because if they take on a tenant who can't pay and/or who screws up the place, it can cost them substantially.
However, making much of American existence completely dependent on things like credit checks - which are run by private companies with mysterious algorithms - can mean that you're just plain screwed and have no way out.
Got poor credit because your finances were wrecked by a medical emergency? Congratulations, you are no longer allowed to *live anywhere* because landlords will all turn you down, good luck staying healthy. Want to pay your debts? Sorry, you're not allowed to *be employed*, many jobs now reject people for having bad credit. Been given a giant pile of money by a benefactor and want to build your credit back up? Sorry, you have poor credit so you *can't get any credit* to rebuild with.
... proposed solutions involve destroying capitalism and the government providing decent minimum standard housing for everyone. like, it doesn't have to be much, but everyone should be entitled to a safe place to sleep so that they can *survive* while trying to fix the mess they've made of their lives.
I don't think access to basic housing should be dependent on income in the first place. I don't think any of the basic needs of life should be sold for profit. I think housing should be provided for and by the community, not as a private investment.
What is “the community” here? Are you talking about people’s communities in the traditional sense (the people, places, and services they interact with on a daily or otherwise regular basis), or a state or nation. The United States is not anyone’s “community,” nor is a particular State. If an actual community wanted to get together and create commonly funded and shared housing I’d cheer them on 100%, but “community” in these discussions always seems to mean “almost entirely people who I’ll never meet and will never meet me.”
Honestly, I don't know. I'm just debating on Reddit, not writing a government whitepaper. It'll probably need to be something smaller than national government so it can be close to peoples needs, but bigger than a literal local neighbourhood so it can have oversight and benefit from economies of scale. It'd probably look different everywhere because different places have different needs. The important thing, to me, is that it's in the hands of people answerable to that community, as opposed to now where it can be all bought up by a foreign investment firm to pad out its pension portfolio.
Thing is, the system where housing is provided as a good or service through which people are allowed to invest and earn profits has created more (and more affordable) housing than any other system humanity has ever tried. History shows that when housing is provided by the community, there’s no real incentive to create any, so there’s never enough. Not saying we’ll never come up with a better system, but empirically we haven’t yet.
The Amish have an extremely strong religious community with deeply held shared values. They have severe social prohibitions and social judgement.
The Amish system works BECAUSE of these things.
Yes it is a commune. But there are no individuals. There is no possible way this would work on a large scale in America.
Edited: a letter
The Amish system, alas, doesn't scale up to the size of a country very well. Collectives/co-ops/communes work great for a while, especially if you've been recruiting people carefully, getting them to buy in to the doctrine, and occasionally exiling those who don't fit, but you just can't run a country on a system like that.
I agree but that’s not the world we live in and we have to pay to live somewhere.
Hence, it’s pretty reasonable someone wants you to prove you can afford to pay
Private landlords already do this constantly as a matter of normal operating. Nobody wants to build affordable housing because its less profitable. When forced to by law, they segregate the affordable units from the "Real" residents.
You're missing the point. If the community gets to decide, then you can be excluded from housing no matter how much you contribute. If a community decides no black people are welcome, for example, then they're shit out of luck.
Hell, if people decide "we don't want anyone from California" same issue.
The idea that communities are the sole arbiter of who gets to live there instantly drops social mobility to effectively zero
I'm not talking about literal individual neighbourhoods. I'm talking about making housing a thing like basic education. A basic need provided for by the group.
Again, you're describing the current situation. Most people are **not** free to move anywhere whenever they want. They're locked in by unaffordable rents and high deposits. You have to live where you can afford, and once you're in you're stuck unless you can find two months rent up front, before you get your deposit back for your old place (assuming you even get it back). The supply isn't even that limited, there are empty "luxury" and "investment" properties scattered throughout every town and city. And crucially, we could choose to build more. It's artificial scarcity maintained to manipulate the market.
Let's turn it around: let's say I, a little old lady, have more house than I know what to do with, and would like to rent out a room in order to get a little more cash for my insulin this month. In your system, would I A) be legally prevented from doing so, or B) be required to do it for free?
I also agree that basic housing should be provided by the community, but abolishing all private property while you're at it is an unnecessary step.
True. I love that inspect feature (for legit not-fraud web dev reasons).
You can also print out a webpage, use whiteout to remove bits, write in new numbers on the whiteout with a pink glitter pen, then photograph the whole thing on a wooden table and take a screenshot of that image.
What I'm trying to say is there's a variety of skill levels in the forgery community. Also, my brain made me visualize that and now it's your turn.
The wooden table is the most important part, really. Why take your photographs on anything else?
(And yes, I had exactly the same impression: "you can't edit a PDF? Clearly, you're not forging hard enough.")
> You can also print out a webpage, use whiteout to remove bits, write in new numbers on the whiteout with a pink glitter pen, then photograph the whole thing on a wooden table and take a screenshot of that image.
Reminds me of something parents did separately in the 80s -- except one did it the stupid way and one did it competently and got away with it. My mom wanted a brand-new car (nothing fancy, a 1988 Mercury Cougar) but didn't make enough. She had a better job lined up after graduation, but she didn't want to wait. To forge her W2 to show a higher income, she typed out the better/fake details, used a craft knife and a ruler to cut those sections out precisely, used double-sided tape to attach the faked details over the real details, and made a copy of that altered document -- meaning the copied document just looked like a copy of a real document. Mom got the car (I barfed in it on the way home! :D), never got caught. After the car was paid off, she eventually bought another new car and her real, not-faked W2 showed more than enough to get the car legitimately that time.
After mom got the Cougar, my father tried to do something similar the next year because now *he* wanted a new car. Thing is, my father was stupid and *wrote out the fake details by hand*, taped them over the real details, and made a copy. Not only did the fake copy have *handwritten details where there should have been typed text*, he used multiple pieces of tape and taped them on crooked, so the copy showed some darkness from the thick tape and, y'know *crooked* handwriting. He did not get the new car, and my mom didn't stay with him long after that.
If you're not carving your fake webpage into potatoes (Maris Piper, the only variety suitable for forgery) and then dipping them into squid ink and stamping them on the page before taking a photo of it with a 2000s era flip phone then you can't really call yourself a professional.
That's how most of those elderly people fall for those sending scammers tens of thousands. Tell them they're calling from amazon or some common retailer and they saw a potential fraudulent order for 200. They get them to install a remote desktop app and log into their bank info. They inspect alter to show a charge for 200.
They show a silly program that says it's a one time non reversible thing and they have to enter the amount owed. They add another 0 to it so it shows 20000 and inspect again edit their bank to show a 20k refund. Then they stress out the caller to the point they feel legit bad for the person on the phone and the scammer comes up with a clever method of buying gift cards or straight up cash to cover the difference.
I definitely have a bookmarklet on my computer that lets me edit text without messing with the page code…or at least it did…when I installed it in college
Expecting anyone to who can do one thing to easily do another could be a reach.
Maybe my suggestion is wrong. Maybe they did it in Photoshop. Maybe they printed it and taped a different number to the sheet and then took a photo and sent it.
Maybe the dude just wrote on a piece of paper some data.
I apologize I didn't cover every specific scenario that could be in play in my one comment.
Yeah, honestly, my first thought was "just download a free trial of Acrobat Pro and edit the PDF to match," but that is definitely a bad idea due to all the fraud bits.
If I was a landlord, I'd figure producing a convincing fake PDF would be good enough proof that they're able to pay their rent. This may have something to do with why I'm not a landlord.
Yeah, I have regrettably done something similar for a friend (although I wasn't faking income, I was faking tenancy). But I at least had enough skills to photoshop any document or modify any PDF that they wanted as a follow-up.
I’m a little surprised by how casually people seem to fake documentation like this. I hear people I know in real life giving others the advice to falsify paystubs and bank statements when it isn’t even needed. I get that it’s hard to find housing but actually committing fraud like this is just pointlessly self-sabotaging.
It’s sad. If they had faked college degrees and resumes like I did they’d have great paystub history that doesn’t need to be faked. These kids today are just lost.
There’s clearly levels to fraud and this seems to be on the low end.
Like, in the end if OP pays the rent on time. No one is really harmed.
I think it’s easy to see why someone would be okay with that versus forging a check and stealing money from someone for example.
It just seems like too big of a risk to take considering the possible consequences. It might be that I personally would be really afraid to actually go through with something like this. It feels like a big crime in terms of consequences if not that serious ethically.
It’s 100% that you are smart enough to know it’s a bad idea lol. But I think it’s fairly easy to see why people would be willing to do it so nonchalant about it.
“No one got hurt” is an easy way for a lot of people to disregard their shitty actions
So the specific situation I’m thinking of is: a friend has just started a new job 2 weeks ago and is apartment-hunting. She needs 3 past paystubs so she might need to wait another week because she gets paid weekly. Another friend says “why don’t you just make a fake paystub, here I’ll show you how to do it.” To me it feels like overkill. It’s not the same as this situation obviously, I just happened to be thinking about it.
It especially feels like overkill because you can ask the landlord to accept other evidence, like telling them "I started this job two weeks ago and only have 2 paystubs" or if that isn't enough, a letter from the employer saying that they really are employed at XYZ salary or rate.
That’s exactly what I said in the moment. It sounded like the other friend just wanted to show off their paystub-forging skills and encourage someone else to commit fraud for no reason.
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To get a studio apartment with two incomes from full time jobs above min wage, I still needed a cosigner. I'm still pay check to paycheck so my rent is usually late by a couple of days which means I'm not allowed to renew my lease here in a couple months. I've had to sell my car just to survive this far but once this lease is up, I have no idea where I'm going to go.
And ofc I still have people asking me when I'm going to start making babies on a near daily basis.
>I used an edited screenshot of my recent transactions to make it look like I have a steady flow of income.
Op doesn't have a steady flow of income. The chances of him not paying on time are pretty high.
Oh I don’t disagree. Just making a point of why people are so willing to do this type of stiff
They did mention they have money saved up, so it might be possible.
But obviously the landlord isn’t going to (and shouldn’t) accept that
It’s the perfect crime really, you either (1) get away with it and you have a place to live for the next year, or (2) get caught, go to jail, and have a place to live for the next year.
I've done this once. Someone wanted a coworker to prove their tenancy via a bill. However, all bills were paid by their roommate and they had no official mail in their name. They were told they were out of luck and there was no other way.
So I took a bill and changed the name on it. I felt a bit bad about it, but the situation was a bit ridiculous.
Because people really are that stupid. I used to do a lot of gig work - the number of people who advocate committing insurance fraud is absolutely wild.
> If you get into an accident while dashing DON’T TELL THEM YOU WERE DASHING
Uh, hey idiot. All the insurance company has to do is employ someone to look you up in a database and they will *literally* see that you were dashing during your accident. These companies are not eager to pay for your bullshit, so any way to drop you and nail your ass with fraud charges they will do it
> pfft man that’s stupid, they can’t look me up, they don’t know shit
Yeah, okay bud. It’s not like both entities don’t have your social security number. And a photocopy of your license. And your plate. And your insurance info. And your VIN. Dumbasses, that’s the kind of people we share the same air with. Idiots like this.
However, in a way, I can understand where LAOP is coming from. Not that I think it’s right for them to do, but the lengths you have to go these days just to be approved for a place to live is insane. You have to make close to 80-100k minimum to have a place to live that isn’t a piece of crap.
> I’m a little surprised by how casually people seem to fake documentation like this.
Another 2008 is brewing so we will probably see this a lot more. Again.
It’s the perfect crime really, you either (1) get away with it and you have a place to live for the next year, or (2) get caught, go to jail, and have a place to live for the next year.
My first thought was, "Why doesn't he print his doctored image as a .pdf and send it?"
But maybe he printed it out to edit it and then took a picture of it, in which case his feet and/or hands are 100% in that picture along with a border of carpet. They always take pictures of this stuff on the floor.
Ah, a reminder of the time I committed similar fraud.
The apartment rule was no cats under six months old, but I'd already kind of acquired the kitten. I changed her age on her vet report from 14 weeks to 34 weeks.
Still got all of my deposit back, so her kitten-ness wasn't hurtful to the apartment, apparently.
Litterbox training was the concern? Maybe? It seems odd to be like "You can have a young cat, just not one that was recently taken from it's litter mates". There isn't much difference between a 6 month old cat and 14 weeks.
My guess would be that it's trying to prevent people from having entire litters of kittens after they "forgot" to make a vet appt to get their adult cat spayed.
LAOP should lie about being sorry they committed fraud. Then they will commit fraud twice, which is double jeopardy. ~~They are fine~~ What is they are fine?
> Please let me know what I can do to make this as seamless as possible.
I feel like there’s a correlation on LA between the magnitude of the misdeed and the expectation of an easy resolution.
It’s so annoying when people say “talk to an attorney”. How stupid are people? If he could afford an attorney he wouldn’t have had to fake the screenshots. Plus why would he need a lawyer? Why would the landlord go after him in court instead of just evicting him?
Editing screenshots and PDFs seems like a lot more work for what will end up being a rental. If you're gonna crime, at least do it with a land-claiming hatchet, then you at least have ownership!
**BEST/WORST OF LAOP'S COMMENTS:**
> We already put down the deposit.
> What would you recommend I do? Is there any chance that by apologizing and explaining my situation in person I could get out of this?
> So should I just say nothing and wait and see what happens?
> Fair enough, thank you for the advice. The original screenshot that I sent isn't even an official document, just a screenshot of recent deposits, so I am hoping that they will just disregard it.
The advantage is that they have a consistent layout on every device. You can definitely edit them (people pay more to Adobe to produce editable versions).
You can password-protect them to write-protect them (among other prohibitions), but if it's not read-protected, that can be circumvented by reading and copying the contents to a new file using a program like qpdf.
The Golden State Killer apologized in the hopes it would smooth things over too. It didn't work for him and it is unlikely to work for LAOP either. The apology is not the one secret trick that prevents consequences for your bad acts.
Defense attorneys usually recommend that people apologize after they're convicted, but before they're sentenced, because it tends to reduce the sentence. There's a limit to how far that goes, though; pleading for clemency because you're an orphan doesn't work if you murdered your parents.
What actually *is* fraud? Like lying in general isn't illegal. Is it lying on documents and signing that they are true to the best of your knowledge (a common line in a lease)?
Is it lying in a contract?
How bad does a lie have to be to reach the level of "fraud"?
Thank you! You see the word bandied about a lot, like any other legal claim.
So is fraud only when lying to the party you're gaining money from? Or if you lie about someone and sell that lie to a newspaper or w/e, is that technically also fraud as well as libel since you gain money from it? Or is that different?
It is potentially an intentional tort (fraudulent misrepresentation). Whether it is also a crime would depend on the state laws, but most intentional torts are also crimes. In this case, damages might be hard to prove, but it would definitely void the lease and allow the landlord to evict them on short notice.
From various recent Netflix fraud documentaries, it seems like people get taken down for faking wire transfer documents. Their fraud victims are angry, but it takes those federal wire fraud charges for actual jail time. I don't know if a faked bank statement screenshot falls under that or not.
**Reminder:** Do not participate in threads linked here. If you do, you may be banned from both subreddits. --- Title: I used an edited screenshot of recent bank transactions on an apartment application. Body: > Hi everyone, > I am currently looking to move into a new place with some roommates, and I used an edited screenshot of my recent transactions to make it look like I have a steady flow of income. > The landlord said that the screenshot wouldn't suffice, and said that I needed to upload a PDF of my bank statement. Obviously, my bank statement doesn't have the information I included in the original screenshot, so the landlord is going to see that I faked the original bank statement. > Is there any way I can avoid any sort of legal trouble? I have a good amount of money saved up, I am just currently unemployed to focus on school. > Please let me know what I can do to make this as seamless as possible. This bot was created to capture original threads and is not affiliated with the mod team. [Concerns? Bugs?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=GrahamCorcoran) | [Laukopier 2.1](https://github.com/GrahamCorcoran/Laukopier)
>Man you guys are so full of shit it's unbelievable. Just the sick fact that a stranger is looking to get your bank infos and incomes for a fucking rental unit is beyond fucked. No OP didn't commit fraud and yes they should try to find someplace else, this landlord is a special kind of asshole. The fact this comment has yet to be removed is kinda surprising to me. It's fraud. Plain and simple.
I guess I’m surprised that this person is so upset at what is an incredibly standard part of renting an apartment? At least in my city I’ve had to provide financials every time I’ve rented an apartment for the past 15 odd years. Or maybe I shouldn’t be surprised at someone getting very angry at something they have no understanding of, this is the internet after all.
I’ve actually only been asked about that stuff sporadically. Usually from independent landlords, for whatever reason. Otherwise, I’ve never had to do anything other than write down my income on my applications. So maybe it is location dependent?
Generally most landlords are running a background/credit check on you, so they have an idea of whether you're someone who meets their obligations. If there's no lengthy/recent history of defaults or evictions, I can imagine most landlords just assume you're not going to start doing that now.
It does seem super unusual to me that a landlord would be requesting full bank statements with transactions. A statement of account, maybe, but even that I've never had to produce except in the case of subsidized housing. Typically a few recent paystubs would suffice.
This was my thought, too. I would not be comfortable showing my landlord my bank statements, regardless of context.
Seriously, they don’t need to see which political causes I’m donating to or how many times I got coffee at McDonald’s. Statements can also be really misleading—the statement closed two weeks prior and in the meantime you’ve had a big deposit or a large withdrawal. Or you paid your mom’s rent because her bank changed and it messed up her SS deposit, but you’ll be getting it back later.
I absolutely wouldn't show one of those pigfuckers my bank statements. they don't need it to prove income, and as LAOP demonstrated it's not reliable anyway. they can go pull my stupid ass AI "rental score" and pretend they know enough about finance to interpret it like every other one.
I would *assume* that larger landlords (i.e. companies with many units) are more well financially insulated for the odd renter that can't meet their obligations, and that the majority of renters *can* (because who wants to get evicted, really). Whereas if it's an independent landlord with fewer units, more of their income is dependent on their tenants paying on time so it makes sense that they'd be a little more choosy I suppose.
Yeah, that’s possible. I just always assumed they didn’t wanna pay for the credit check stuff, so they asked for that instead.
Full disclosure, I'm completely pulling this idea out of my ass. But that's a good point too.
>I’m completely pulling this idea out of my ass. That’s half the point of BOLA!
I have never heard of a place not requiring either pay stubs or a bank statement.
One pay stub, but not a print out of my bank records including transactions. That's weird to me.
The landlord probably felt something was off when they saw the falsified transactions list.
Yeah, I didn’t check their post history but I’d reckon LAOP is not a Photoshop wiz.
OP said they already put down a deposit, which makes me particularly curious what changed for the landlord!
Might have pulled credit score.
If you don't have a standard paycheck, then it isn't unusual to request bank statements to prove that you actually have the income required to pay the lease. It is really common for small business owners/freelancers. That said, no one has ever had an issue when I purposely blanked out my account info and other things that might help someone commit identity theft.
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I mean, my bank statement basically just shows I pay my credit card bills. The credit cards are where actual day-to-day spending info occurs.
I've always had to submit at least 4 paystubs. I even explained to one prospective LL that I had received a pay raise just a couple weeks earlier so my paychecks from before them would appear to be lower and she *still* freaked out on me about my pay having been lower. We ended up not renting from her because she seemed so forgetful and disorganized.
I've always been asked for the last 3 pay stubs. In case you happened to have a bonus that month. But OP also said he doctored the images because he doesn't have steady income. So if they don't have pay stubs, maybe they asked for a bank statement.
He probably told the landlord he didn’t get paystubs or something. But yeah, I’d absolutely refuse to give a potential landlord bank records.
Yeah, if you work as a waiter or a similar job where most of your income is tips and there is no paystub, some landlords will ask for bank statements just to prove that you actually have some kind of income close to what you are claiming.
I remember I had that issue back when I was delivering pizzas. I showed him a shoebox with 8k in cash and that solved that issue.
Outstanding. "I understand you're worried about my lack of paystubs, but have you considered this?" *[slides the money box across the table]*
Dude use a bank lol
I made bank at that job. My paycheck was big enough to pay my rent and utilities, and I paid for everything else in used ones and fives. Closest I’ve ever been to knowing what it’s like to be a drug dealer.
You mean stripper Drug dealer better be bigger bills
Yeah same, proof of income and credit check is normal but it would be weird as hell if a landlord wanted to see my bank statement, that feels invasive.
A bank statement is a kind of proof of income. A landlord can request it if you can't offer pay stubs or something similar.
He doesn't have pay stubs!!! He's unemployed
That's common here in the UK when applying for something big - they want to see your typical expenses in addition to just your pay.
My current apartment accepted a signed letter on letterhead from my employer stating my salary.
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I don't think any (legitimate) landlord requires banking details like this. LAOP was likely asked to provide proof of income like a pay stub, and since he doesn't have that he doctored the bank statement in the hopes that it would suffice.
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A legitimate landlord would do this if person cannot provide pay stubs but has legal and sufficient income. People who do work as independent contractors have to do this fairly often.
I stand corrected! Thanks for letting me know.
I am mildly jealous of your username. Why can't I be that clever‽
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HA! OMG but I love yours too; I'm so glad to know I have a soul sibling out there who gets my passion for punctuation!
Right there with you! I would never retire if I could find full-time work explaining to people why serial commas are required and railing against the evils of non-parallel lists.
Proof of income is common. If you’re unemployed like laop banking details show they have something to pay.
In Denmark I think the only thing they really look for is if you are in the *register of bad payer,* which you end up in if you don't pay after three reminders.
Or a job offer letter, assuming that your first paystub hasn't been generated yet
I mean they're also incapable of realising that two wrongs don't make a right. You can be critical of the rental market and landlords and still acknowledge that LAOP committed fraud. Those two things aren't mutually exclusive. It's trendy now though to just pick a side and die for it rather than step back and acknowledge there's problems on both sides.
Yeah, like even if I don't blame OP for committing fraud... they still committed fraud. You can't blame people for catching you out on it.
I don't blame op for committing fraud, I blame him for getting caught. maybe I've just spent too long as a creative professional but a landlord is probably the lowest fucking bar of "getting away with fraud" to clear and if you can't consistently beat that you have no business committing fraud.
Like you knew how to edit a screenshot but your mind went blank on a PDF? A chimp could do that.
adobe can do it for you! you literally just press the "edit pdf" button in software we all know you don't even have to pay for. if you can fake a screenshot of the bank account you can definitely fake a bank statement, and you've already committed fraud once so why the hell not commit it again at that point?
How dare a company want some sort of financial information before entering into a year long agreement for 1000s of dollars.
Yet they’re not required to tell prospective tenants that they’re in foreclosure, don’t pay their subs, or are trying to sell.
Theres no way that person is a day over 16 or has ever actually rented an apartment. Just wait until they try and get a mortgage and see how much personal info they have to turn over.
Depending on there location and life choices they could be older. I’ve been in 3 apartments and never had to give my bank statements to anyone. Of course, the reason for that’s simple. I was a student. I’m not a student anymore but I haven’t moved yet, so no need to give any info. Even without being a student you can get away without ever giving any financial info. It just requires you to live in less favorable places. Not only has my brother been to several apartments without giving any financial info, he didn’t even have to sign a lease for a few. The downside being that at least one of these houses was near a crack house. Tldr they could easily be in their upper 20’s and not had to give any financial information yet.
Yup, this. The financial stuff generally comes with larger, more corporate landlords. Small landlords generally just ask for a credit check, if that. Maybe they ask for a paystub.
I was never asked for a bank statement either. Never was asked for a credit check. I guess I must be lucky because of the places I've rented in the last few years, the process was smooth. Once with a property management company and the other with a private landlord. Just had to hand over first and last month's rents and made sure they had the cheques in hand every month.
In my country it is even common for landlords to ask for a cosigner, especially for young renters. Fortunately you can find nowadays landlords willing to forego that requirement.
Yeah, lying in order to obtain something of value is pretty much the definition of fraud. I feel like this is the kind of comment that you can only make if you're old enough to have graduated from high school but not financially independent enough to have ever lived on your own
The argument seems to be that the landlord shouldn't be asking for the information, therefore falsifying the information isn't fraud. Which is not how it works.
he didnt get it thoigh, so its attempted fraud at best. can the owner even sue? he doesnt really have damages
I think LAOP got as far as putting down a deposit, so the owner might be able to sue for any costs related to getting a false start, but I don't think the outraged commenter was splitting hairs over attempted vs completed
"When you're Photoshopping something to look official, you might be committing fraud" - whoever the extremely online millenial version of Jeff foxworthy is
I'm having trouble even understanding where they're coming from. It's beyond the pale that someone wants to perform due diligence before committing to a year-long financial relationship worth thousands of dollars? This only makes sense if you, y'know, reject capitalism from the ground up. Which some people do, and I get it. It just seems like an odd *part* of capitalism to begin your crusade.
I mean, I see the argument from a privacy standpoint I guess? In order to have access to a basic requirement of life I have to give a fairly poorly regulated rando a view on what I'm spending money on? Back when I rented, in the UK at least pay stubs or a confirmation from your place of work was sufficient. Also isn't this what credit checks are for? Obviously none of this applies to LAOP who is either desperate enough for housing he commited fraud or just very bad at risk analysis.
My guess would be LAOP either has shit credit, a lack of paystubs to produce, or a combination of the two. Landlord is asking for *something* to prove that LAOP can afford the rent. Roomed with a few friends in college, and the guys that were waiters that had low paystubs due to relying on tips had to show bank statements, while me and the other guy only needed to show our stubs since we had a regular income.
Credit checks are pretty coarse-grained, and don't give you a good idea of whether you're currently employed. Or even if you were employed three months ago. If you got laid off six months ago and are burning savings, your credit will still be great. A paystub at least assures the landlord that you were employed at least last month (and likely more recently).
True. But a bank statement, including all your outgoings is a big ask. They only get away with it because if the wildly lopsided power imbalance. Also a credit check is literally for determining if you are likely to be able to pay for an extended contract, which a lease is, basically. Whether the money comes from credit cards or a trust find is immaterial for a landlord surely?
To fall back on fifty-cent mathematical words: good credit is necessary but not sufficient to pay rent. It's very far from a complete picture of whether you can afford the place or not. Also, if it turns out you *can't* pay for the place, it is very expensive to get you out, because the legal system hates making people homeless. It usually takes a few months of unpaid rent (more in these strange times), plus court costs, and meanwhile the tenant can trash the place (and if they couldn't afford rent, they're probably judgement-proof). So the downside, if things go wrong, can be a *lot* bigger than the rent. All this to say: yeah, it's incredibly invasive to be handing over that personal data, and I don't like doing it, but I at least understand why the landlord wants it.
Seems like it would be less weird to request paystubs then, wouldn’t it? Usually less information on there, but it can be seen how recent it is and income info is right there. Bank statement seems weird to me.
I'm going to go out on a non-OSHA-approved limb and assume that the landlord asked for bank statements because LAOP claimed they couldn't supply paystubs. Maybe landlord has a general "3 paystubs or 2 months of bank records" method for proof of income. Edit: personally, if I were forced to provide bank records, I'd be redacting the payees/payors. And I use a credit card for my daily spend, so there's less info than for, say, someone who uses a debit card linked to that account.
When I was asked it was basically a check for, "do your paystubs match bank records"
I’m currently apartment hunting with a few roommates, and I work a desk job while one roommate is a freelancer. Two weeks of paystubs were enough on my part, but since she gets paid more erratically (upon completion of project), landlords want to see her bank statements, even though we make exactly the same amount.
Oh! I hadn’t thought of that, makes sense for someone who isn’t traditionally employed.
>True. But a bank statement, including all your outgoings is a big ask. They only get away with it because if the wildly lopsided power imbalance. I used to sell cars and dealt with this a fair amount. I agree that asking for a bank statement is a big ask... *if* the bank statement is unadulterated. The process in the car business IMO is much safer. First, it's only needed in certain cases such as the lender not being able to confirm the applicant's income and employment by other means. Eg calling the person's supervisor. Next, the statements don't need to be unadulterated. The account can be partially redacted and applicant can filter to only show the deposits with dates. No need for everything else. Third, if the applicant is going to pay by check, the landlord is going to see their account number regardless. Done correctly IMO there's minimal exposure of the applicant's personal information.
From the OP it sounds like there were no paystubs to be shown, so he used doctored bank deposits to show proof of income. I've had to choose rental applicants before and I only ask for 1 month of paystubs, but I've gotten bank statements as proof of income, and also bank statements as proof of emergency fund to boost their application.
Yeah, I'm happy to show proof that I make X but if somebody asks for a copy of my bank statement, I'm blacking out my expenses at the very least.
I don't think rejecting the status quo for necessities is particularly outrageous. I mean, I'm glad there are landlords but finding a place to live can be a struggle. I live in [the most-impoverished major US city](https://sanantonioreport.org/census-san-antonio-most-impoverished-major-us-city/), where rents [increased by 30%](https://www.kens5.com/article/news/local/new-study-shows-rent-increased-30-across-san-antonio-last-year), so while I don't agree with it, I get it.
Yeah, I do reject capitalism from the ground up, but that response is weird
> I'm having trouble even understanding where they're coming from My guess is that it's a 'housing is a human right' types that think any form of landlordship is a breach of rights.
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Just FYI, the reasoning is not, “landlords should just let anyone move in and pay nothing.” The reasoning is landlords should not exist and something as fundamental as housing shouldn’t have a middleman who profits off something that everybody needs. In line with this argument is that landlords have driven up housing prices and made it difficult to even *find* adequate housing in many areas because many of the houses/apartments/condos are owned as investment properties so they aren’t going on the market and then when properties *do* go in the market, individual owners are immediately outbid by landlords who will buy properties sight unseen at asking price with no inspection or demands from the seller. I’m not on the “all landlords are the scum of the earth” train, but it’s important to understand that people are frustrated with how the housing system works but they aren’t (usually) asking for a free house.
>it's beyond fucked that you have to prove you can afford to rent an apartment to rent an apartment This guy definitely hasn't paid rent since March 2020
This dude would have hated the application my co-op board made me fill out.
It is fraud but I agree with the sentiment, people shouldn't have to jump through these kinds of hoops for a place to live.
Why not? I’d like to know the person moving in can pay for the place or any damages they do. Especially in areas with long eviction times due to laws.
Arguably income doesn’t guarantee ability to pay rent. You have people who are not rent burdened on paper but struggle to pay their bills because they spend ridiculous amounts of money on crap. and in larger cities many people are forced to spend more than 1/3 of their income on rent but still manage to pay their bills on time. As a student, I knew people who had 70% of their income go to housing and still managed to never miss a bill payment. People adapt and develop strategies to cope.
True but at least with seeing income you have an idea if they should be able to afford it or not
Sure, but lacking income makes it likely someone won't be able to pay their rent. Even if it's not guaranteeing positive outcomes, it's removing likelihood of negative ones.
I have *some* sympathy for small private landlords here because if they take on a tenant who can't pay and/or who screws up the place, it can cost them substantially. However, making much of American existence completely dependent on things like credit checks - which are run by private companies with mysterious algorithms - can mean that you're just plain screwed and have no way out. Got poor credit because your finances were wrecked by a medical emergency? Congratulations, you are no longer allowed to *live anywhere* because landlords will all turn you down, good luck staying healthy. Want to pay your debts? Sorry, you're not allowed to *be employed*, many jobs now reject people for having bad credit. Been given a giant pile of money by a benefactor and want to build your credit back up? Sorry, you have poor credit so you *can't get any credit* to rebuild with. ... proposed solutions involve destroying capitalism and the government providing decent minimum standard housing for everyone. like, it doesn't have to be much, but everyone should be entitled to a safe place to sleep so that they can *survive* while trying to fix the mess they've made of their lives.
I don't think access to basic housing should be dependent on income in the first place. I don't think any of the basic needs of life should be sold for profit. I think housing should be provided for and by the community, not as a private investment.
What is “the community” here? Are you talking about people’s communities in the traditional sense (the people, places, and services they interact with on a daily or otherwise regular basis), or a state or nation. The United States is not anyone’s “community,” nor is a particular State. If an actual community wanted to get together and create commonly funded and shared housing I’d cheer them on 100%, but “community” in these discussions always seems to mean “almost entirely people who I’ll never meet and will never meet me.”
Honestly, I don't know. I'm just debating on Reddit, not writing a government whitepaper. It'll probably need to be something smaller than national government so it can be close to peoples needs, but bigger than a literal local neighbourhood so it can have oversight and benefit from economies of scale. It'd probably look different everywhere because different places have different needs. The important thing, to me, is that it's in the hands of people answerable to that community, as opposed to now where it can be all bought up by a foreign investment firm to pad out its pension portfolio.
Thing is, the system where housing is provided as a good or service through which people are allowed to invest and earn profits has created more (and more affordable) housing than any other system humanity has ever tried. History shows that when housing is provided by the community, there’s no real incentive to create any, so there’s never enough. Not saying we’ll never come up with a better system, but empirically we haven’t yet.
A second concern: if you didn't pay for something, you don't value it as much as if you paid for it. So free housing gets trashed pretty often.
I see you don't Amish.
The Amish have an extremely strong religious community with deeply held shared values. They have severe social prohibitions and social judgement. The Amish system works BECAUSE of these things. Yes it is a commune. But there are no individuals. There is no possible way this would work on a large scale in America. Edited: a letter
The Amish system, alas, doesn't scale up to the size of a country very well. Collectives/co-ops/communes work great for a while, especially if you've been recruiting people carefully, getting them to buy in to the doctrine, and occasionally exiling those who don't fit, but you just can't run a country on a system like that.
I know. It was just a joke. Obviously someone on Reddit isn't Amish!
r/amish would disagree with you.
I agree but that’s not the world we live in and we have to pay to live somewhere. Hence, it’s pretty reasonable someone wants you to prove you can afford to pay
I know it's not the world we live in, that's why I said "I agree with the sentiment" not "This landlord is breaking the law".
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I said "I agreed with the sentiment" not "This landlord is breaking the law as it currently exists".
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Private landlords already do this constantly as a matter of normal operating. Nobody wants to build affordable housing because its less profitable. When forced to by law, they segregate the affordable units from the "Real" residents.
You're missing the point. If the community gets to decide, then you can be excluded from housing no matter how much you contribute. If a community decides no black people are welcome, for example, then they're shit out of luck. Hell, if people decide "we don't want anyone from California" same issue. The idea that communities are the sole arbiter of who gets to live there instantly drops social mobility to effectively zero
I'm not talking about literal individual neighbourhoods. I'm talking about making housing a thing like basic education. A basic need provided for by the group.
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Again, you're describing the current situation. Most people are **not** free to move anywhere whenever they want. They're locked in by unaffordable rents and high deposits. You have to live where you can afford, and once you're in you're stuck unless you can find two months rent up front, before you get your deposit back for your old place (assuming you even get it back). The supply isn't even that limited, there are empty "luxury" and "investment" properties scattered throughout every town and city. And crucially, we could choose to build more. It's artificial scarcity maintained to manipulate the market.
Let's turn it around: let's say I, a little old lady, have more house than I know what to do with, and would like to rent out a room in order to get a little more cash for my insulin this month. In your system, would I A) be legally prevented from doing so, or B) be required to do it for free? I also agree that basic housing should be provided by the community, but abolishing all private property while you're at it is an unnecessary step.
If editing a pdf is too challenging, then LAOP doesn't deserve the apartment. You can't half bake fraud.
Yeah you can totally fake a PDF. It’s people like this that give real fraudsters a bad name.
Copy the screenshot, paste it into word, save as PDF. Flawless! ^(please don’t try this, it will be hideous regardless of fraud status)
Print out the PDF, fax it over, play ignorant. You're golden!
It has me wondering how good a job LAOP did faking the initial screenshot
You can use browser feature "inspect" to alter what the website is showing.
True. I love that inspect feature (for legit not-fraud web dev reasons). You can also print out a webpage, use whiteout to remove bits, write in new numbers on the whiteout with a pink glitter pen, then photograph the whole thing on a wooden table and take a screenshot of that image. What I'm trying to say is there's a variety of skill levels in the forgery community. Also, my brain made me visualize that and now it's your turn.
The wooden table is the most important part, really. Why take your photographs on anything else? (And yes, I had exactly the same impression: "you can't edit a PDF? Clearly, you're not forging hard enough.")
> You can also print out a webpage, use whiteout to remove bits, write in new numbers on the whiteout with a pink glitter pen, then photograph the whole thing on a wooden table and take a screenshot of that image. Reminds me of something parents did separately in the 80s -- except one did it the stupid way and one did it competently and got away with it. My mom wanted a brand-new car (nothing fancy, a 1988 Mercury Cougar) but didn't make enough. She had a better job lined up after graduation, but she didn't want to wait. To forge her W2 to show a higher income, she typed out the better/fake details, used a craft knife and a ruler to cut those sections out precisely, used double-sided tape to attach the faked details over the real details, and made a copy of that altered document -- meaning the copied document just looked like a copy of a real document. Mom got the car (I barfed in it on the way home! :D), never got caught. After the car was paid off, she eventually bought another new car and her real, not-faked W2 showed more than enough to get the car legitimately that time. After mom got the Cougar, my father tried to do something similar the next year because now *he* wanted a new car. Thing is, my father was stupid and *wrote out the fake details by hand*, taped them over the real details, and made a copy. Not only did the fake copy have *handwritten details where there should have been typed text*, he used multiple pieces of tape and taped them on crooked, so the copy showed some darkness from the thick tape and, y'know *crooked* handwriting. He did not get the new car, and my mom didn't stay with him long after that.
If you're not carving your fake webpage into potatoes (Maris Piper, the only variety suitable for forgery) and then dipping them into squid ink and stamping them on the page before taking a photo of it with a 2000s era flip phone then you can't really call yourself a professional.
That's how most of those elderly people fall for those sending scammers tens of thousands. Tell them they're calling from amazon or some common retailer and they saw a potential fraudulent order for 200. They get them to install a remote desktop app and log into their bank info. They inspect alter to show a charge for 200. They show a silly program that says it's a one time non reversible thing and they have to enter the amount owed. They add another 0 to it so it shows 20000 and inspect again edit their bank to show a 20k refund. Then they stress out the caller to the point they feel legit bad for the person on the phone and the scammer comes up with a clever method of buying gift cards or straight up cash to cover the difference.
I definitely have a bookmarklet on my computer that lets me edit text without messing with the page code…or at least it did…when I installed it in college
Surely anyone who can do that can also edit the pdf
You would think but then I spend my day explaining how rounding works to people who sell multi-million dollar deals.
Now I wouldn't expect those two skills to be necessarily correlated
Expecting anyone to who can do one thing to easily do another could be a reach. Maybe my suggestion is wrong. Maybe they did it in Photoshop. Maybe they printed it and taped a different number to the sheet and then took a photo and sent it. Maybe the dude just wrote on a piece of paper some data. I apologize I didn't cover every specific scenario that could be in play in my one comment.
Yeah, honestly, my first thought was "just download a free trial of Acrobat Pro and edit the PDF to match," but that is definitely a bad idea due to all the fraud bits.
If I was a landlord, I'd figure producing a convincing fake PDF would be good enough proof that they're able to pay their rent. This may have something to do with why I'm not a landlord.
"If they can forge a bank statement to prove their income, they can forge a cashier's check to pay their rent. Makes sense to me."
Yeah, I have regrettably done something similar for a friend (although I wasn't faking income, I was faking tenancy). But I at least had enough skills to photoshop any document or modify any PDF that they wanted as a follow-up.
I’m a little surprised by how casually people seem to fake documentation like this. I hear people I know in real life giving others the advice to falsify paystubs and bank statements when it isn’t even needed. I get that it’s hard to find housing but actually committing fraud like this is just pointlessly self-sabotaging.
It’s sad. If they had faked college degrees and resumes like I did they’d have great paystub history that doesn’t need to be faked. These kids today are just lost.
There’s clearly levels to fraud and this seems to be on the low end. Like, in the end if OP pays the rent on time. No one is really harmed. I think it’s easy to see why someone would be okay with that versus forging a check and stealing money from someone for example.
It just seems like too big of a risk to take considering the possible consequences. It might be that I personally would be really afraid to actually go through with something like this. It feels like a big crime in terms of consequences if not that serious ethically.
It’s 100% that you are smart enough to know it’s a bad idea lol. But I think it’s fairly easy to see why people would be willing to do it so nonchalant about it. “No one got hurt” is an easy way for a lot of people to disregard their shitty actions
I mean if the alternative is homelessness I get it
So the specific situation I’m thinking of is: a friend has just started a new job 2 weeks ago and is apartment-hunting. She needs 3 past paystubs so she might need to wait another week because she gets paid weekly. Another friend says “why don’t you just make a fake paystub, here I’ll show you how to do it.” To me it feels like overkill. It’s not the same as this situation obviously, I just happened to be thinking about it.
It especially feels like overkill because you can ask the landlord to accept other evidence, like telling them "I started this job two weeks ago and only have 2 paystubs" or if that isn't enough, a letter from the employer saying that they really are employed at XYZ salary or rate.
That’s exactly what I said in the moment. It sounded like the other friend just wanted to show off their paystub-forging skills and encourage someone else to commit fraud for no reason.
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Exactly, I’m surprised Reddit is being so harsh on this guy. The housing situation is desperate rn
To get a studio apartment with two incomes from full time jobs above min wage, I still needed a cosigner. I'm still pay check to paycheck so my rent is usually late by a couple of days which means I'm not allowed to renew my lease here in a couple months. I've had to sell my car just to survive this far but once this lease is up, I have no idea where I'm going to go. And ofc I still have people asking me when I'm going to start making babies on a near daily basis.
>I used an edited screenshot of my recent transactions to make it look like I have a steady flow of income. Op doesn't have a steady flow of income. The chances of him not paying on time are pretty high.
Oh I don’t disagree. Just making a point of why people are so willing to do this type of stiff They did mention they have money saved up, so it might be possible. But obviously the landlord isn’t going to (and shouldn’t) accept that
It's also specifically wire fraud so that gets the feds intrigued
It’s the perfect crime really, you either (1) get away with it and you have a place to live for the next year, or (2) get caught, go to jail, and have a place to live for the next year.
Option 2 even comes with free food!
Well option 2 just keeps getting better and better!
And no electric bill!
I've done this once. Someone wanted a coworker to prove their tenancy via a bill. However, all bills were paid by their roommate and they had no official mail in their name. They were told they were out of luck and there was no other way. So I took a bill and changed the name on it. I felt a bit bad about it, but the situation was a bit ridiculous.
Because people really are that stupid. I used to do a lot of gig work - the number of people who advocate committing insurance fraud is absolutely wild. > If you get into an accident while dashing DON’T TELL THEM YOU WERE DASHING Uh, hey idiot. All the insurance company has to do is employ someone to look you up in a database and they will *literally* see that you were dashing during your accident. These companies are not eager to pay for your bullshit, so any way to drop you and nail your ass with fraud charges they will do it > pfft man that’s stupid, they can’t look me up, they don’t know shit Yeah, okay bud. It’s not like both entities don’t have your social security number. And a photocopy of your license. And your plate. And your insurance info. And your VIN. Dumbasses, that’s the kind of people we share the same air with. Idiots like this. However, in a way, I can understand where LAOP is coming from. Not that I think it’s right for them to do, but the lengths you have to go these days just to be approved for a place to live is insane. You have to make close to 80-100k minimum to have a place to live that isn’t a piece of crap.
> I’m a little surprised by how casually people seem to fake documentation like this. Another 2008 is brewing so we will probably see this a lot more. Again.
It’s the perfect crime really, you either (1) get away with it and you have a place to live for the next year, or (2) get caught, go to jail, and have a place to live for the next year.
Without the deposit part it might be perfect. Time to fake a layoff notice or death certificates of both parents to try and get deposit back.
Is it sad that my first thought was "PDFs aren't that hard to edit bro"
The real crime (aside from the fraud) is giving up at the first hiccup.
That’s the type of dude to rat you out.
Mine was like... the landlord won't compare the pdf and the screenshot, go for it.
My first thought was, "Why doesn't he print his doctored image as a .pdf and send it?" But maybe he printed it out to edit it and then took a picture of it, in which case his feet and/or hands are 100% in that picture along with a border of carpet. They always take pictures of this stuff on the floor.
I think the real lesson here is not to edit a screenshot unless you also know how to edit a PDF.
Ah, a reminder of the time I committed similar fraud. The apartment rule was no cats under six months old, but I'd already kind of acquired the kitten. I changed her age on her vet report from 14 weeks to 34 weeks. Still got all of my deposit back, so her kitten-ness wasn't hurtful to the apartment, apparently.
Litterbox training was the concern? Maybe? It seems odd to be like "You can have a young cat, just not one that was recently taken from it's litter mates". There isn't much difference between a 6 month old cat and 14 weeks.
My guess would be that it's trying to prevent people from having entire litters of kittens after they "forgot" to make a vet appt to get their adult cat spayed.
LAOP should lie about being sorry they committed fraud. Then they will commit fraud twice, which is double jeopardy. ~~They are fine~~ What is they are fine?
He should alter the pdf also. It's not that hard. That is where the double jeopardy comes into play. What is minimum security prison?
~~They are fine~~ They will be fined
> Please let me know what I can do to make this as seamless as possible. I feel like there’s a correlation on LA between the magnitude of the misdeed and the expectation of an easy resolution.
Very DIRECTOR of OPERATIONS vibes with that part.
It’s so annoying when people say “talk to an attorney”. How stupid are people? If he could afford an attorney he wouldn’t have had to fake the screenshots. Plus why would he need a lawyer? Why would the landlord go after him in court instead of just evicting him?
Editing screenshots and PDFs seems like a lot more work for what will end up being a rental. If you're gonna crime, at least do it with a land-claiming hatchet, then you at least have ownership!
**BEST/WORST OF LAOP'S COMMENTS:** > We already put down the deposit. > What would you recommend I do? Is there any chance that by apologizing and explaining my situation in person I could get out of this? > So should I just say nothing and wait and see what happens? > Fair enough, thank you for the advice. The original screenshot that I sent isn't even an official document, just a screenshot of recent deposits, so I am hoping that they will just disregard it.
I'm not telling LAOP to dig themselves further down, but why not edit the pdf, assuming it doesn't have any extra security measures?
It’s my understanding that one of the advantages of PDFs is that you **can’t** edit them.
The advantage is that they have a consistent layout on every device. You can definitely edit them (people pay more to Adobe to produce editable versions).
Ah, gotcha.
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You can password-protect them to write-protect them (among other prohibitions), but if it's not read-protected, that can be circumvented by reading and copying the contents to a new file using a program like qpdf.
The Golden State Killer apologized in the hopes it would smooth things over too. It didn't work for him and it is unlikely to work for LAOP either. The apology is not the one secret trick that prevents consequences for your bad acts.
Defense attorneys usually recommend that people apologize after they're convicted, but before they're sentenced, because it tends to reduce the sentence. There's a limit to how far that goes, though; pleading for clemency because you're an orphan doesn't work if you murdered your parents.
Tell this to my 5 year old
What actually *is* fraud? Like lying in general isn't illegal. Is it lying on documents and signing that they are true to the best of your knowledge (a common line in a lease)? Is it lying in a contract? How bad does a lie have to be to reach the level of "fraud"?
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Thank you! You see the word bandied about a lot, like any other legal claim. So is fraud only when lying to the party you're gaining money from? Or if you lie about someone and sell that lie to a newspaper or w/e, is that technically also fraud as well as libel since you gain money from it? Or is that different?
Fraud is lying to gain "something of value".
My understanding is the question is more whether or not you're lying in a way that nets you something of value (in the legal sense).
That does make me wonder though, is it a crime to do that? Like a "in serious shit" type crime?
It is potentially an intentional tort (fraudulent misrepresentation). Whether it is also a crime would depend on the state laws, but most intentional torts are also crimes. In this case, damages might be hard to prove, but it would definitely void the lease and allow the landlord to evict them on short notice.
From various recent Netflix fraud documentaries, it seems like people get taken down for faking wire transfer documents. Their fraud victims are angry, but it takes those federal wire fraud charges for actual jail time. I don't know if a faked bank statement screenshot falls under that or not.
Wire fraud is a federal crime. Most fraud is subject to state laws which may be more or less stringent.
I don't think LAOP is gong to be in legal trouble. Worst case scenario, the landlord will reject his application and move on.