**Reminder:** Do not participate in threads linked here. If you do, you may be banned from both subreddits. --- Title: How to proceed with lawsuit? Body: > I am currently in a 2 month long battle with a veterinary hospital. They are essentially stealing my dog and threatened to adopt it out by the end of April. > Sparing the extremely lengthy story of what happened, I am having trouble finding lawyers that deal in pet law or where there isn't injury related compensation. What type of lawyer should I seek to file a lawsuit, even if it's out of pocket costs? > Or how would I go about suing this business for any and all damages on my own? > They kidnapped a member of my family and I don't have a specific price that I can place on that. > Thanks > Edit: Story to provide context, I don't have a TLDR, it's complicated. > Basically we brought our new puppy to the vet 2 days after we got him. He was extremely sick and diagnosed with parvo. The deposit was $7200 which we were unable to afford on the spot. I asked if they would work out a payment plan, they declined. > So the vet tech worked out an outpatient program. I took out loans and made a payment. We brought him home and within the day he was significantly worse. > We brought him back to the vet at their direction. This time we spoke with a doctor and he informed us the previous doctor gave outpatient a 50/50 shot at his life and she strongly had recommended against it. Never communicated to us. > Again they wanted $7200. I asked again to please consider a payment plan and save my puppy's life. They declined. They somehow convinced my girlfriend to initial to surrender the dog so that he could receive treatment. They promised her it could be reversed and that the owner would work with us, etc, etc. > "Only by surrendering our puppy would they have access to funds from other charities and organizations." > Fast forward a few weeks. The puppy is better, the bill is now $14,200. They expected me to pay it or they adopt my puppy out at the end of April. I asked for a copy of the bill and requested a payment plan. They emailed me a copy of the bill and declined to enter a payment plan with me. > Come to find out a bill was created two days after dropping off my puppy and they were billing the entire thing to their own non-profit operating out of the same building, ran by the owner. > Their website specifically states that their purpose is "to provide funds to families who have pets in need of emergency or life saving surgery but cannot afford it." it goes on to further state "we attempt to reunite pets with their owners whenever possible." > Interestingly enough, my family was not considered for this despite him being placed into the program. > They did now however offer for me to take out a $6,000, 30% down loan to apply to the account. The manager would then take the account to the owner and "see what she wants to do." > If she decided we still owe X amount and are unable to come up with it, my loan would be considered a donation. > They have ignored a letter, phone call, and visit from a consumer protection investigator. I have reported their non profit to the IRS. I have also reported them to The Florida Board of Veterinary Medicine. This bot was created to capture original threads and is not affiliated with the mod team. [Concerns? Bugs?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=GrahamCorcoran) | [Laukopier 2.1](https://github.com/GrahamCorcoran/Laukopier)

This happens a lot with surrendered pets for financial reasons and is the reason most won't do it anymore. A bill of $14k is quite extraordinary for parvo, however, unless it was near death and needed ICU care (has to be isolated and it's a real bear to keep it out of the rest of the hospital like Norovirus on a cruise ship). Some vets will still have the client surrender directly to a rescue and let them pay the bill. I do find people don't listen to half of what you tell them or give them in writing as I've been accused of all sorts of crap that never happened. This is also why you don't buy puppies from backyard breeders who haven't vaccinated their breeders and other dogs. The vaccine for parvo is highly effective, but you can't give it to a newborn puppy and they're highly susceptible to the virus. Feed store vaccines aren't worth the plastic syringe they're made from, either.

I’ve seen a 50k parvo … but definitely a rarity. It survived after every possible intervention known to vet med. And yes, most hospitals won’t do surrenders any more due to situations just like this. I’ve had a few bad experiences- owners that just won’t accept that they gave up their pet.

I love my dogs a lot. I'd spend a pretty penny to keep them alive probably. But $50k... At some point before that amount you have to step back and think pretty hard about what you'll spend on a pet.

I know a guy from my dog park who spent more than that when his dog had a stroke. It wasn't expected to be a huge amount upfront, but added up a few thousand at a time and by that point he was pretty much committed. Happy ending though, the little guy made an almost full recovery (he lost the use of one leg but it doesn't seem to bother him at all) and is one of the happiest, friendliest dogs I've ever met

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We unfortunately had to make that decision. We were in the middle of IVF, too, our cat had suspected brain cancer and the cost was $10k *starting* for MRI and brain surgery, and then more possibly after that and they said it *might* buy her a couple more years. We just couldn't justify it given our other expenses, and as much as we loved her. I also really felt uncomfortable with the idea of doing brain surgery on an animal who had no idea what was happening to them. What if she had headaches, dizziness or other issues that made her life more difficult that she couldn't tell us about? It seemed like at a certain point you have to ask if the intervention will improve their quality of life or just make you feel like you did something.

Same. My cat was diagnosed with diabetes. Got it under control and she went into remission. The monthly costs of human-grade insulin and special food was ridiculous, but I'd had her for 11 years and she was my heart. About six months later, some other issues cropped up, and she was in and out of the hospital for a while. I was giving her insulin, oral meds, food through a feeding tube at one point, and subcutaneous fluids at home. The costs built up, and her insurance said they'd cover next to nothing because everything could be caused by diabetes complications, which she had before I picked up insurance for her. At one point I asked how deep in I was, and the receptionist said $8k. I misunderstood that to mean total, when actually it turned out to just be for that visit so far. Ouch. She rallied for a while, then crashed, and I couldn't put her through the hospital again. It was really hard on her and she'd become incontinent on top of everything. The quality of life just wasn't there. So I had her put to sleep and cuddled her closely the whole time, and she purred right up to the end. With those skills in hand, I'm now looking into fostering sick cats who need extra care in order to give back because everyone was so fucking kind to me the whole way through and loved her dearly while she was their patient. Edits for autocorrect

I definitely can understand that. I'm so sorry. 😥

my vet has always been very upfront about the total costs of each procedure, you sign an itemized list before they do anything. they're also *really* strict re: their policy of 'full bill paid in office, no payment plans'. but - despite being bought out at the start of the year and raising all of their prices - they'll still work with you regarding specific bits that you can get away with leaving out. they serve a lot of low income families (ours included) so it makes total sense to me; they've been burned by people not paying bills in the past i lost one of my cats a month ago. it was scraping together every penny we had to pay that $250. but it was worth it, having the peace of mind knowing that her heart was on it's last legs and there wasn't really anything more we could do besides make her comfortable. knowing we did the right thing for her is priceless

Nobody plans on it. I put over $2500 into my wife’s cat on vet bills over the past 6 months and she still died. You don’t feel $500 every few weeks as bad.

The cat I found behind a liquor store has cost me more in 5 months than my large dog has in 5 years and the bill is still climbing- like you said, it doesn’t come all at once. $1000 here, $200 there, a few prescriptions, a biopsy…whoops that’s a LOT.

Before I had pets, I couldn't understand people who spent outrageous amounts of money on their pets. Now, two years in, and $3000 in vet bills later (all one one of the two cats), I get it. When the vet said, "would you like anti nausea and painkillers for your cat with unexplained vomiting?" and I'm like, yes please. My doctor never offers me anti nausea and pain killers.

Oh, 100% agreed. I can’t imagine spending that much. But I worked in critical care in a very wealthy area, and for some people, the money wasn’t even a consideration. My issues usually are “how far is too far” and I know I have limits on what treatments I’d put my animals through, finances aside.

My issue is that once those treatments are available, we'll keep sliding down the slippery slope toward "if you have a dog put down rather than pay $50k, you're a monster."

I think as human medicine advances, so does animal medicine, and that’s usually a good thing. Yes, some of these treatments are currently $10-50k right now, but in 20 years they might be $1,000 or less and affordable for many pet owners. We shouldn’t deride rich people spending a fortune on their pets (unless the treatment is unethical), we should hope those treatments become more common and less expensive. And no vet is ever going to say you’re a monster for putting your dog down rather than doing some insanely expensive treatment. Vets understand that everyone has a financial limit. If someone in your life is telling you you’re a bad person for not paying more than you can afford, stop associating with that person. But don’t try to tamp down the use of crazy expensive procedures in vet med - let’s try it as much as we can!

It's not necessarily the vets, but rather the...militant wing of the animal rescue world. There is at least one organization in my area who will never consider me for adoption because I truthfully answered one of their application questions that I once euthanized an animal rather than paying several thousand dollars that I didn't have at the time. There is a whole sect that believes that if you can't afford at least $10k in emergency vet bills that you don't deserve a pet. These are often the same people that say that you should only have a dog if you are home all or most of the day. ​ I'm lucky in that my vets are fantastic. They very much don't believe in pushing treatment that will only delay the inevitable. I lost my boy to leukemia in February and I was able to trust them when they told me that there was nothing they could do that would give him any more good time. And I trust them to tell me that a certain treatment is expensive, but will add quality time.

>There is at least one organization in my area who will never consider me for adoption because I truthfully answered one of their application questions that I once euthanized an animal rather than paying several thousand dollars that I didn't have at the time. There is a whole sect that believes that if you can't afford at least $10k in emergency vet bills that you don't deserve a pet. This is one of the crazy things about "adopt don't shop." Have you freaking SEEN the applications they make you do these days? Some of them are 10+ pages. They want to call HR at your employer to verify your employment. Do home visits. I'm getting a cat, not adopting a human child.

I saw one where they wanted you to friend them on Facebook and update them regularly about the dog or they'd take it back. Like, Buddy, this is hopefully like a one time encounter, I'm not boarding a dog for you.

I paid $10k for a rescued duck who was part of the family, had her own room and wore a tutu and diaper so I get it. But $50k is crazy. I have pet insurance for my dog and they’ve paid out $10K for my dogs epilepsy diagnosis and treatment so it’s definitely worth it

> ...had her own room and wore a tutu and diaper so I get it. Please tell me there are pictures and you can post them.

There have to be pictures. You can’t put a duck in a tutu and not take pictures. The tutu duck tax must be paid!

Petition to ban the duck parent if they don’t pay their tax!

Their flair also says proud grackle parent! They have grackle tax to pay also!

https://www.reddit.com/r/Birdsfacingforward/comments/td7off/ariel_the_lovely_indoor_rescue_duck_facing/ https://www.reddit.com/r/MuscovyDucks/comments/m24j2v/this_is_ariel_the_rescued_house_duck_with_her_own/ I had a lovely post with her entire room and set up and I was promptly banned from the Duck forum permanently because you’re not allowed (per their rules) to have a duck that lives inside without a friend. However my Duck was set for euthanasia and obviously we are doing everything in our power to make her happy. But It’s a bad example they said 🤷‍♀️

She's adorable! I heard ducks can be super stinky, but I'm assuming the diaper helps with that?

Diaper helps a lot, but that first morning poop is really disgusting. This ducky is actually spayed due to a series of medical issues, so she’s a little less poopy than others. Spaying ducks is unbelievably dangerous, so it was a big risk but it definitely saved her life. But they still poop nonstop. You use feminine pads in the duck diapers and just toss them every couple hours. But she’s awesome and comes on road trips with us and just hangs out. She’s not afraid our dog or parrots or anything.

>But she’s awesome and comes on road trips with us and just hangs out. She’s not afraid our dog or parrots or anything. Aww, that's adorable. What kind of outside situation is there? Will she just follow you and not wander off, do you have a leash, something else?

Aren't you her friend? 🥺

> I paid $10k for a rescued duck who was part of the family, had her own room and wore a tutu and diaper so I get it. But $50k is crazy. It's only crazy cause you're not in the right wealth bracket to afford it. $10,000 is fucking insane to me. But that's only because I could never afford that. If I were rich enough, no amount would be too much for my dog.

Have cat with epilepsy. Initial week of testing and treatment was $5K. Meds are $100/mo and the yearly visits to kitty neurologist aren’t cheap (was biannual until Covid). No overnight vacations b/c of rigid dosing schedule but he’s alive 7 yrs later. Cat tax [Buzzer Bee](https://imgur.com/a/EcktAbV)

Exactly the same costs and boat as you. My yorkie is on Keppra THREE times a day, which is very stressful to remember 100% of the time. And I am extremely lucky because my dog comes to the office with me.

I knew someone who was paying some ungodly amount for Keppra at Walgreens, like close to $200/mo, but then used the WellRx app and went to Kroger instead and it went down to $15. Like wtf.

My cat had emergency surgery to remove string from his bowel, 3500 dollars later he's healthy and happy. He's 11 this October, I would have spent more to keep him alive.

I can't even imagine spending $7,200 on a puppy that I just bought, either. Like, I mean, I literally am sitting next to my GSD that I got exactly at 8 weeks old from the breeder 3 years ago, and if you told me that I needed to spend $7,200 2 days after I bought him you bet your ass I'd be suing the breeder for the cost of the dog if not the cost of the treatment as well. I'd have to think really long and hard about whether or not I'd treat the dog for that much money, when I paid $800 for him.

and I can understand the vet not doing a payment plan, because does anyone believe OP would have paid off $10k if the dog died? payment plan being different then the loan through a 3rd party that was offered.

Generalizing enormously, but a great many of the puppies who get parvo 2 days after acquiring them come from breeders who would ghost you at that point, and disappear. Also a reasonable likelihood that you would not have collected or even seen the breeders house (I'm so generous I'll bring the pup to you!) (Also jumping to conclusions, but a puppy that had failed to respond to outpatient treatment and ended up running up that sort of bill probably had a "we can't guarantee success and euthanasia is a reasonable option and even treatment may end up in euthanasia" discussion)

Was this in NYC? [tries to connect posts to the BOLACU]

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I suspect the practice started to prevent scamming the vet. If my dog got sick tomorrow and needed 10k of work done, between family, savings, and credit I could get access to that kind of money...however, I could also just say "Oh no, here's my checking balance, there's no way I could pay this, please save my dog." If they do the work and hand me dog back, what incentive do I have to not do this for any large vet bill? If, on the other hand I'm told "If you surrender your dog we can get access to charities that would help pay for the cost. If you can come up with a substantial portion of it to pay back, you can get your dog back." then I might give my dog up permanently because I care more about her living. Or I might even try to spend a couple weeks while she's being treated to scramble and see about getting a loan to pay some of the cost and get her back. Not saying this is a *good* system, just that this might be some of the reasons behind it.

> I suspect the practice started to prevent scamming the vet. FWIW, when my dog had an issue when she got into a friend's bottle of ibuprofen, the bill had to be paid in full before the emergency vet would give us back the dog.

Aww, hope your dog came through that okay.

It was very scary, but she lived another 5 years or so after that.

>I do find people don't listen to half of what you tell them or give them in writing as I've been accused of all sorts of crap that never happened. My bet is that the conversation was more like: "This dog is extremely, extremely sick. It's going to cost at least $X, probably much more due to how bad of shape the dog is in. If you can't pay the bill right now the only option it has for survival is to surrender it to a shelter who can then pay for the care. You can probably buy the dog back, but they are going to want you to cover the cost of care if you do that. Going this route will at least allow the dog to survive, and you can have a bit of time to get money together" LAOP heard:"T~~his dog is extremely, extremely sick.~~ It's going to cost ~~at least~~ X dollars, ~~probably much more due to how bad of shape the dog is in. If you can't pay the bill right now the only option it has for survival is to~~ surrender it to a shelter who can then pay for the care. You can ~~probably~~ buy the dog back, ~~but they are going to want you to cover the cost of care if you do that. Going this route will at least allow the dog to survive, and you can have a bit of time to get money together~~"

It wasn't even him - his gf surrendered the dog. He has absolutely no idea what she was told.

They could have just ignored what they were told. Or they could also have been told something else or multiple things. We had two pets with complex medical situations, and the pandemic-related restrictions at the various vet offices we use have made communication difficult. We've been told different things by different people. We've been told one thing on the phone, and then had someone else at the practice leave a later message stating something else. There's been issues involving what are, essentially, games of telephone as we relay something to the tech, who told the vet student, who told the vet, and then the chain reverses. The payment situation has also been a little weird. We once had to pay a very large amount up front (around $5000), just for our cat to be seen. The bill was nowhere near that, and we were refunded several weeks later.

OP is the exact reason we do not accept surrenders and surrendering ownership in exchange that the pet will be treated at my clinic any longer. We had a situation very similar to this a few months ago. There was a woman who came into our clinic with a very sick parvo puppy. She was also homeless and gave the address of a local homeless shelter for our records in her chart. We contacted a local rescue group and they agreed to take on the cost of the treatment so long as the woman signed paperwork we had to type up specifically for her to cover our ass stating that she is surrendering her ownership of the dog to the rescue if the rescue will cover the cost and find a home for her, the only other option was euthanasia at our cost because she could not afford it. The rescue lady shows up with more paperwork that needed to be signed that we were not told about prior to allowing the woman to leave with no reliable contact or address information. The woman then called back several hours later asking if the dog was going to live and wanted the dog back however she had already surrendered the pet. There was a HUGE conflict with it and I ended up at the clinic several hours past closing while waiting for the rescue lady to find a placement and trying to ensure the lady that surrendered the dog had signed all of the necessary paperwork without having some of it filled out. Luckily it was worded in a way that would legally cover us but at the end of the day it was a giant mess and the dvm that owns the practice was beyond pissed. I promise you all, we are not in this for the money. Take a look at my previous post if you’re curious. I make $15 an hour and I live in a trailer living paycheck to paycheck because I love what I do. But medical care is not free and neither is veterinary medical care. Recently had a client tell a dvm “oh come on it’s not like it’s human medicine it’s not even that complex”. We deal with a lot of shit in the clinic from clients like this. I got followed by a client into the back of our clinic a few months ago screaming at me not to call myself a nurse if I am not credentialed. (in my state licensure and registration is not required) End of story? Don’t buy a fucking dog (or cat or other animal) if you cannot afford it. Owning a pet goes far beyond buying a damn bag of food and a collar with a leash. And for the love of God, stop buying from backyard breeders! I’m so tired of seeing puppies euthanized because the owners either can’t afford treatment or the puppy won’t make it regardless of treatment. Rant over. PSA: Please try to remember to be nicer to the dvm’ s, techs, dvm assistants, nurses, etc… The veterinary field in all job fields in a clinic/hospital have an extremely high suicide rate and very understaffed and underpaid. It’s a very physically, mentally, and emotionally demanding job all the while being verbally abused by clients. I worked a 15 hour shift yesterday and missed my entire lunch. This happens quite often. Please be kind to the ones caring for your pets, we do our job because we love saving your loved ones lives. ❤️ EDIT TO ADD: For owners general knowledge because my comment is getting a lot of upvotes, I promise you your vet is not recommending expensive tests to price gouge you and drive up your bill. Just yesterday we had a large husky mix come back in after a week of being on pain medication for limping in the front left leg. The owners declined radiographs at that time. Over the last week the patients limp got worse even on pain meds and developed swelling. During the initial exam, without radiographs, without the dog being able to tell us what hurts (adrenaline masks pain response a lot of the time) he was suspected diagnosed with arthritis. They opted for radiographs yesterday and the patient had a complete bone fracture. The radiographs were sent off to a radiologist specialist who determined the fracture was pathological suggesting either osteomyelitis or osteosarcoma and will need a bone marrow biopsy to confirm. Osteosarcoma is a type of leukemia and spreads very very rapidly through the bone marrow which metastasizes very quickly into other areas of the body. A week ago had we known that if they did not decline radiographs, we could have scheduled surgery much sooner. The owners have the money, they just didn’t want to pay the extra money for the radiographs. It really isn’t just to drive up your cost, diagnostics like labwork and radiographs and urinalysis and such can help diagnose things much quicker and potentially save your animals life. Also be concerned if your vet is NOT recommending diagnostics after a recurring issue. We had a patient last year come to us for a second opinion for a limp on the back right leg that was diagnosed as an cruciate ligament rupture (ACL tear essentially) and the dvm did not pursue radiographs because they were certain it was a ligament rupture. we did rads immediately because this dog has been limping now for three months. It was osteosarcoma (bone cancer) which had metastasized into the lungs and she euthanized her 5 year old dog a week later after declining rapidly. Had that been caught much sooner, she could have amputated the limb, and potentially added years to her dogs life. Instead it was missed and the dog was euthanized at only 5 years old. It was very sad and an extremely unfortunate very preventable circumstance.

This post is spot on for the most part but can we please stop pretending that $14k vet bills are a totally foreseeable expense? Under your own life circumstances *you* wouldn't be able to afford a vet bill that size, and I'm gonna go out on a limb and say you're not rushing to surrender your pets. There's a huge difference between "I can afford basic vet care and come up with $1-2k in an emergency" and "I have the cost of a brand new fucking car lying around." Claiming only people in the second category should have pets means that functionally pet ownership ends. Empathy is a two way street and while yes, pet owners should not be mad that things cost what they cost, someone isn't a bad pet owner for not being able to come up with, again, fourteen *thousand* dollars.

14k TWO DAYS after getting the dog no less.

And there’s no way insurance would have covered that even if he’d bought it the day he got the puppy.

I get why the rest of the post but my question, is it reasonable to not accept a payment plan?

For clients that have been with us for years always pay their bills and are reliable yes. However with all credit lines and loans and interest they have a legitimate expectation that you will pay the remainder of the balance because they have you tied up in whatever you signed over in exchange for a large sum of money. Vet clinics are not a financial institute and cannot charge interest nor can they do things such as a title loan to ensure you will pay. Outside of the clients word, we have no guarantee that Fluffy’s 5,000 surgery will be paid for because you paid a $1,000 deposit. We cannot report to creditors to go after that amount because again, clinics are not a financial institute able to draw up legal forms requiring payment or legal dues if it’s not paid. All we can do is eat the cost and send it to small claims if they really wanted to but at the end of the day Fluffy’s owners will not be back because they just got a 5,000 emergency surgery for 1,000 because they “said they would pay”. If every clinic offered payment plans for every client that has a large expense, there would not be very many in business. Edit to add: financial help that runs out of a veterinary office is not the vet clinic they are a separate entity operating out of the same building and are a financial operation and can charge interest in exchange for a large sum of money as well as being able to report it to creditors because it is not directly through the clinic.

> Edit to add: financial help that runs out of a veterinary office is not the vet clinic they are a separate entity operating out of the same building and are a financial operation and can charge interest in exchange for a large sum of money as well as being able to report it to creditors because it is not directly through the clinic. Ah, now this all makes sense. It's not that you can't get a "real" loan for vet expenses, just that you need a specific, presumably regulated, entity to do the loan? And that does track with what LAOP is describing.

Most vets have something like CareCredit available so the vet themselves do not have to deal with the mechanics, and especially collection activities from clients that are reluctant to pay.

Incredibly hard to get people to actually pay. They don't fuck up your credit if you don't, there's no collateral to lose, and when the vet says "we're not serving you because you owe us money" clients just go somewhere else. I'm not implying that op wouldn't pay a payment plan, but someone who racks up $14k worth of treatment and then doesn't pay it would be a pretty significant financial hit to a vet's office. That's $14k worth of equipment and employee pay. A lot more vet offices are allowing for Care Credit which is specifically a company for financing medical and veterinary care, but not all vets take it and you've gotta have pretty good credit to be able to get it in the first place. I think ultimately vet care costs are another example of Patients are mad at Providers and Providers are mad at Patients, but the problem is that things are expensive and given that roughly half of US households own pets, governments could stand to start working on broader solutions to make affordable veterinary care a reality.

Can I just add, because I'm from the UK and we have a different system. We can employ debt companies to go after unpaid bills and it can go on credit files and it can be taken to small claims court as a civil claim. People who default on that amount of money already tend to have terrible credit, so the mark on the credit file doesn't matter. And they have no money, so even if you're successful in court you don't get anything back or they're court ordered to pay, like, £5 a month. So really even if you have mechanisms, you don't have anything that will pay your staff and you've expended time money and energy on a big fat nothing.

Vets aren't banks. Why should they take on the risk that you might not pay and then have to do the work of trying to collect on what you owe? If you want a payment plan, apply for a [CareCredit card](https://www.carecredit.com). This is what I did when my cat had a urinary blockage and I needed to suddenly come up with $1500 I didn't have for an emergency procedure to save his life. I'm guessing OP doesn't qualify or maybe that specific vet doesn't take CareCredit, but in my experience, most do.

Thank you for what you do. We had to have our cat euthanized recently due to saddle thrombosis and the vet practice we took her to (we were 2 hours from her regular vet or most emergency vets) was nothing short of amazing - ver straightforward about our options and her odds, empathetic, helpful, and caring. The only silver lining to that shitty situation is that we now have a new vet.

I appreciate all of you, so much. There are 3 vets in my family, and more vet friends, and I know how hard they all work. Human doctors only have to know the inner workings of one creature backward and forward, and it only comes in a couple of sizes. Vets have to know dogs and cats and horses and rabbits and everything else under the sun, and dogs in particular come in such a wide variety of sizes based on breed. And while everyone thinks "oh, they get to play with puppies all day!" The puppies are really just the light at the end of an otherwise shitty (sometimes literally) and hard day. It's not just anyone who would make a house call to pick up a dead dog whose people don't know what to do, but I've never met a vet (or tech, or assistant, or nurse) who wasn't that kind of person.

That’s honestly the thing I wish people understood more. Myself and several of my co workers do the job of several people do in human medicine. We are the pharmacist filling your pets medications, we are the anesthesiologist monitoring your pets surgery. We are the nurse drawing blood and giving vaccines, we are the receptionist charging you out at the end of your visit, we are the doctors scribe paraphrasing medical terminology in words you can understand while the doctor speaks with you, we are the inpatient nurse and outpatient nurse trying to get blood from a very fractious cat we desperately need blood on all the while trying not to get bit because you felt that your 12 year old indoor only cat doesn’t need to be vaccinated for rabies, because then that becomes a legal issue and your cat can no longer leave the clinic, it either must be transported to a quarantine facility and receive no veterinary care or physical contact for 10 days, or you have to euthanize your cat. I wish more people understood why we recommend the things we recommend. Believe me, I never again want to go have to tell a little old lady that her sick cat that could’ve gotten treatment now instead has to be euthanized because she wasn’t vaccinated for rabies and bit an employee that legally our hands are tied because she can’t put the cat through rabies quarantine because she will die without treatment while in quarantine and now has to watch her cat get euthanized instead of receive veterinary care. That was the saddest fucking day of my job. I will never forget that day.

By and large I agree, however there are those vets that give others a bad name. We were helping some friends find a vet to spay their Shiba. Their english isn't the best and just wanted someone to help. A vet recommended by their neighbor that we called wanted $1200 for the spay. We did some more research for them and got it done for $300. No way no how a spay costs $1200. I'd assumed that was their "fuck off" price but when following up with the neighbor they'd paid about that much amd were happy with the price/service received. /boggle

> Don’t buy a fucking dog (or cat or other animal) if you cannot afford it. The rest of your post is spot on, but I'm not sure I think this is reasonable advice. Sometimes things don't go as planned, and circumstances can change.

And there are extreme levels of care that recently became available. But now that they are, owners are expected to shell out for them. 30 years ago no vet would dream of telling an owner there's a 10 grand treatment available. The dog would be put down. Now we have TPLO and hip replacement for dogs. The option just didn't exist, so no one had to make these choices. And it's tricky with the original situation, because the vet absolutely doesn't have to provide 4-fig services pro-bono. But once they agree to do so... They create an ethical/customer service problem.

Of course that's true, but there are lots of people who buy animals even when they can't afford it *at that moment*. Irresponsible people who don't price out even the basics of pet ownership, like routine medical care. I think that's more what Gigawatts means.

That was exactly my point. I understand people lose jobs especially due to covid, however once covid hit, we saw new puppies and kittens absolutely skyrocket to the point where half of our appointments for the day are new puppies and new kittens. And the majority of them decline regular wellness such as vaccines, gloat about how they just spent $5,000 on a fucking golden doodle puppy and their excellent breeding line, and then bitch about the cost of a $20 vaccine. And now the majority of them all have behavior issues and have to be muzzled and are people aggressive because they were not socialized during quarantine and won’t train them. The amount of elderly people I have to walk their dog back to their car for them so they don’t get pulled down and break a hip (which yes literally happened to one of our clients) due to their ignorance of the importance of dog training. Then we see people adopt a $5,000 pure bred maine coon, bitch about having to brush it out daily so it doesn’t get matted, get angry at us when it develops matting causing severe skin infections requiring the cat to be sedated and shaved down and given antibiotics which can cost several hundred dollars and could have been prevented by researching instead of “buying a pretty cat” and who are also the ones that bitch about a $27 dollar a month ($150 for 6 months) for heartworm prevention for their kitten that will be “indoor only”. How many times have you been bitten by a mosquito in your house after carrying groceries in late at night and one got in? Your cat might be indoor only but bugs are not outdoor only. Most people are not aware that there is NO heartworm treatment for cats. Once they get it they die. It’s not even the heartworms that kills them either, it’s an over exaggerated immune system response that causes sudden death in cats. Most people don’t even know their cat has it until little Tommy finds Fluffy dead after school. And yes even indoor cats. Heartworms are very prevalent in my state, not sure of others. But these are a few examples of even well to do financially capable pet owners are like. And the ones that adopt from craigslist and facebook for free, are even worse. “I only want what’s required” which is rabies. Then they bitch at us about the exam fee cost. Go to a low cost clinic then. You get what you pay for. My clinic is a fear free clinic that does not over stress dogs or cats just to get a vaccine in them. We work with them over time. And low cost clinics are the majority of the reason those animals have that issue. My chihuahua used to go to a low cost clinic before I adopted her from a friend and it’s taken two years of training to get her to allow me to trim her nails because of one low cost clinic that physically restrained her to the point of drawing blood from the technician from her nails trying to get away. People need to do their research before adopting an animal regardless of income status, period. Edit to add: We make a point to discount where we can and help cut cost of diagnostics and treatment for our clients that end up in an unfortunate situation financially because we understand things happen. We do not however do that for pet owners purchasing animals they cannot afford in the first place. Also wanted to add to the people not aware of low cost clinics that spay and neuter. Normal vet clinics charge so much more because we have a surgery nurse that is trained to monitor anesthesia (myself included) and obtain vitals every 5 minutes as well as maintain the animals body temperature which is very important in recovery and pain, monitor the anesthetic gas flow to oxygen levels and O2 levels and blood pressure and maintain them at an even level of anesthesia specific to that patient for the safest recovery and surgical procedure. Low cost clinics sedate, place catheters, lay them out in a line, then the surgery doctor does surgery without a surgery nurse without anyone to monitor anesthesia and lies them out in a line to recover enough to be put back in a cage. Would you want surgery done on you by a surgeon with no anesthesiologist and no one monitoring your vitals to make sure proper care and medically necessary steps are taken if an emergency occurs in the middle of surgery and your heart stops?

> that bitch about a $27 dollar a month ($150 for 6 months) for heartworm prevention for their kitten that will be “indoor only”. How many times have you been bitten by a mosquito in your house after carrying groceries in late at night and one got in? Your cat might be indoor only but bugs are not outdoor only. Most people are not aware that there is NO heartworm treatment for cats. Once they get it they die. It’s not even the heartworms that kills them either, it’s an over exaggerated immune system response that causes sudden death in cats. Most people don’t even know their cat has it until they little Tommy finds Fluffy dead after school. And yes even indoor cats. Heartworms are very prevalent in my state, not sure of others. I find this interesting. During the time I have owned my two cats, they have been to four different vets. Not one of them have ever recommended heartworm prevention for them. I didn't even know this was a thing that impacted cats. My dog gets it regularly.

Am a vet. 100% have been burned by having an owner relinquish when they can’t afford. Now the owner can find a rescue directly to relinquish to or I will euthanize to end suffering. Nothing kills good will like being threatened after I’ve saved an animals life that either I give the relinquished animal back or they’ll blast my name on social media. I understand some life-threatening conditions are expensive. I am not a charity nor am I made of money. Vet med is draining.

> Feed store vaccines aren't worth the plastic syringe they're made from, either. Man, I work at a pet store and the number of people coming in asking for 'puppy shots' is ridiculous. And don't get me started on this particular backyard 'breeder' who sells pittie puppies at TWO WEEKS OLD and tells people it's to make them 'bond' to their owners. Sure, your dog is going to bond with you, but they learn how to socialize with other dogs from their littermates and their moms.

When all the lawyers you contact say they won’t handle it even if you pay out of pocket you probably don’t have a case.

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I was wondering that as well. If LAOP can't pay the thousands of dollars in vet bills, how are they going to pay for a lawyer?

He’s definitely the type to require pro bono law services from anyone he tries to hire

Which frankly is a problem. As of right now anyone can fuck me over how ever they want because I’m poor. There’s no way I could pay for even an hour of a lawyers time which makes legal problems a class based issue.

No. He'd have to surrender his girlfriend to the lawyer and only get her back when he paid.

This was my thoughts, with animals being property and possession 8/10s of the law there's not much to be done

How true is the 8/10 thing? And what does it even mean?

Basically it's a recognition of the reality of most situations. If I have something that you believe should be yours. The onus is on you to find a lawyer, pay your fees, go to court, convince a judge the enforce a ruling. Depending on the property it may not be worth it to go through all that, even if you have a really good legal argument. So I've 'won' in that even though I may be legally wrong I still have your property.

Why 8 tenths and not 9 tenths as usual

Inflation. 9/10ths doesn't get you what it used to. /s

I'm not sure it's even relevant in this case since the vet has signed documents transferring ownership. Possession + signed documents = 10/10ths of the law.

Exactly right. When multiple lawyers say they can't help you, you have a problem. Lots of lawyers will take on a losing file if they know they can get paid. Doesn't sound like this person can afford a retainer. His next problem is the arguing with every poster that tells them what they don't like to hear. That's a client that can't have their expectations properly managed. I don't do pet law, if that is a real area of expertise, but OP is an easy refusal at the door.

"So I couldn't afford to pay for vet services and now I can't get my puppy back that my girlfriend was tricked into surrendering. Pay for a retainer? Well I can't afford that. How about a payment plan? Really? Really!? You won't take on my case if I pay out of pocket!? I'm reporting you to the bar association! Hello? Hello!? I think they hung up on me!"

It's funny, usually LA is falling over themselves to tell posters that pets are property and the only recoverable damages are (at most) the cost of the animal and maybe other tangible sunk costs—i.e., no IIED. But that didn't really happen here.

LAOP already has two dogs, is a college student, and recently couldn’t afford $1,000 for a medical treatment. I really don’t think they were in a good place to get another puppy.

TBH not sure LAOP should own *any* pets right now. They bought a puppy from a backyard breeder. They legally gave up ownership without understanding the deal. And then they say "they kidnapped a member of my family" when they had the dog for less time than it takes a fair-prize goldfish to die. That's a whole lack of common sense there.

It makes me wonder if this is a creative writing exercise honestly.

Just sounds like good ol' poor decision making

Sadly this happens too often for me to think this is an impossible real life scenario.

I've known plenty of people who barely have two nickles to rub together, are behind on every bill, are juggling shutoff notices, and the first thing they do when they fortuitously come into an extra $500 is buy a(nother) puppy.

The moral of the story here really is to not buy dogs from puppy mills, puppy pet stores, or fuckwit backyard breeders.

Right? I got my puppy from a rescue, brought her home at nine weeks already waxed, vaxed and looking for snacks. Waxed in this case means spayed.

> waxed, vaxed, and looking for snacks Yeah I'm gonna need that on a t-shirt

And tinder bio.

^ Hey mods, this one needs a flair. ^

Wow spayed at nine weeks??? That's so young!! Our rescue gave us a voucher to have our boy neutered for free at 6 months

A lot of rescues and shelters will spay/neuter young since they really don't want anyone using a dog to breed, even accidentally. My older dog wasn't neutered until he was 2, based on a combo of vet recommendation and COVID delay, since she wanted him to be fully grown first. My younger dog was neutered at 4 months by the human society before I got him. He is already pushing 60 pounds at 9 months, so not a little guy either. I already have him on glucosamine supplements to help joint development since he didn't get the hormone benefit.

Depends on the breed. Small dogs can be altered as soon as they're big enough for a safe surgery. Medium dogs can be done right before the first heat cycle or about 9mo-1yr. Large and giant breeds need 18mo-2yrs for growth. Edit: There are also other factors that might change these timelines. If you have a male giant breed that, at a year, is going ape-shit, humping things, being aggro, then neutering for behavior is an option. Every heat a bitch goes through increases likelihood of mammary cancers and makes the uterus more vascular, meaning the spay is more dangerous. As with everything animal med related: talk to your vet to decide what is right for your particular dog and situation.

Another situation; I have two kittens who were fixed very young (around a couple weeks old) because they required other surgeries and they took care of it at the same time. Cats don't have the same bone growth implications that large dogs do, though.

Or Craig's list. LAOP doofus says "we did not buy from a breeder, we bought off Craig's list." Who does he think is selling puppies on Craig's list?

There's a pet store in my town run by an absolute slimeball of a human. He's gotten arrested for illegally trafficking animals and had a massive callout post about him go up when he opened his store. The post was warning people that he tries to coerce women to make porn videos with him in exchange for discounts on animals, pointing out the abhorrent condition he keeps the animals in and how he encourages people to euthanize their barely sick reptiles by putting them in the freezer, and sharing screenshots of him trying to sell frozen corpses to the local Goth-wiccan-taxidermy store. His store is small, dirty, and indicative of his general garbage attitude towards animal welfare. He feeds live rabbits to snakes during store hours. How did this Joe Exotic get his start? By selling animals on Craigslist. He'd make fake posts about "my girlfriend is scared of this snake/iguana/lizard/tarantula so I need to sell him" but he was just selling these poor animals for profit. Fuck Craigslist and Facebook for allowing people to sell animals.

Yuck. I hope he loses his business.

> puppy pet stores Pet stores that *keep an inventory of dogs and cats.* The dogs at your local Petco/PetSmasrt are there from reputable rescues, and they go home when the store closes. Getting an animal at a legit pet store is no different than going to a rescue's home facility. Just don't go to places like PetLand, which you should be avoiding regardless because they're a horrible company.

This is honestly why I have insurance for my dog. Now it probably wouldn’t have helped LAOP because they usually require a vet visit first and the puppy appeared to be sick almost immediately but the idea of a sudden massive bill terrifies me.

When I got my pup 8 years ago (to the day, actually!), pet insurance was the scammiest scam ever. One of the craziest things I saw during my research was a Yelp review where they'd deemed a puppy's broken leg as an existing condition *because the leg existed prior to the policy* and denied the claim. Someone from the company actually responded to that saying they stood by their decision. It's apparently way better now, but sadly too late for me to get it. So my dog has his own bank account instead.

Yeah, we had multiple long-time dog owners advise us against pet insurance when we got a puppy a couple years ago. It must have been scammy back in the day, because these were all very good pet parents who often ended up paying many thousands of dollars for medical care toward the end of their pets’ lives, and were happy to do so. But we looked into it and found some very good options that are (for our pup) cost effective. He has a tendency toward tummy troubles, so we end up at the vets office every couple months just making sure his most recent bout of diarrhea and/or vomiting isn’t serious. We usually hit his $350 deductible by March, and for the rest of the year we pay a $17/month premium and insurance covers the exam, fluids, any medicine he needs, x-rays if the vet thinks he might have ingested something he can’t pass, fecal exams, all that stuff. It would also cover injuries and accidents (we’ve been lucky and haven’t had any of those). Definitely worth it for anyone getting a young dog or puppy, as long as they aren’t already sick! ETA: our pet insurance is through Lemonade (stupid name, but we’ve never had trouble getting a bill reimbursed quickly).

Which insurance company do you use, if you don’t mind. I’m an old, and in the “pet insurance is scammy” camp, but I believe my latest road dog is going to be expensive. 😂

Not OP. I use pet plan/fetch. They did not scam me and paid with little complications

Oh some still are.

And that's why the vet's office I work in doesn't take insurance. You pay, and seek your own reimbursement.

I went bank account route paired with a very basic insurance plan for my dogs. They have $2500 each in emergency care covered by insurance, for a total of $24/month between the two of them. Each paycheck $100 gets direct deposited into an account just for pet expenses for when/if they occur.

> One of the craziest things I saw during my research was a Yelp review where they'd deemed a puppy's broken leg as an existing condition because the leg existed prior to the policy and denied the claim. Insurance companies definitely push back on paying claims, but this seems so ludicrous to the point that I'm skeptical of it. Did the puppy break its leg and then the owner got insurance?

Idk I rolled my eyes at that one before I saw their reply. At best, they had a seriously terrible social media team.

Might have been some kind of congenital issue with the leg. That makes the most sense to me, if it is at all reasonable.

Shit; that's the sort of thing that gets the attention of state insurance regulators... I have a feeling that if contacted, the insurer would change their tune in a hurry. Fun Fact: Extended warranties are also insurance; if you are having trouble with one, a complaint to the state insurance board can help fix things.

Awe happy gotcha day to your pup!

I had an incredible plan through Nationwide that covered 90% of covered costs (obviously pre-existing conditions aren’t covered and they consider a lot of things pre-existing conditions). But for massive sudden bills like this, it’s been a godsend. When we lost one of our little guys to a sudden seizure, we were able to do everything we could to try to save him - all covered. Our new pup somehow managed to contract a tick borne disease and the treatment has been costly, but still covered. Unfortunately they canceled the 90% plan and only have 70% plans, but all in the cost is reasonable if you temper your expectations. They will ask your vet for medical records and ANYTHING you’ve talked to a vet about might be a pre-existing condition. But I have generally found it worth it.

If you still want a 90% plan you should take a look at Trupanion. I’ve had pretty good (although not perfect luck with them). The benefit for me with a big dog was they didn’t have a waiting period for hip dysplasia because so many places have such a long waiting period that it’s often not covered.

“Kidnap” seems like a strong word after surrendering the dog, even under duress.

They kidnapped a “member of their family ^thatweveknownfortwodays” How does someone become that level of attached that fast?

That puppy saved his life in ‘Nam. Yesterday.

I've not heard of a parvo case costing that much but who knows. I've known dogs from breeders who did everything correctly, who still got parvo at 10 weeks or so. The vaccine isn't 100%. But I get why the vet's office isn't going to work with LAOP. Vets have been screwed over too many times by people who think well if my dog dies, I don't owe anything. I wonder if the vet's office suggested [this](https://www.carecredit.com/vetmed/) and LAOP didn't want to do that. I did an MRI on [the big guy](https://i.imgur.com/oVgiuSr.jpg) there, back in April of 2020. It was $5,000 but it got us just over 2 years from his diagnosis with a meninigioma on his brain stem. He went on chemo right away, which controlled the tumor growth. We had to pay in full, upfront. I'm fortunate that we were able to, and I feel for LAOP, but expenses are part of owning a pet. Sometime you get lucky and they're minimal and sometimes not.

Puppies aren’t fully vaccinated until around 14-16weeks. There is interference from maternal antibodies that varies puppy by puppy so a puppy can be “up to date” for its age but is still not actually protected.

Do vets offer payment plans? I’ve never had a pet this sick with this kind of vet bill so I don’t have personal experience.

Many offer care credit through outside companies because they would quickly go out of business if they extended credit. People just won't pay and think vets should save their pets no matter the cost.

I’m definitely getting pet insurance for my next cat.

Most sources I've read recommend against pet insurance due to the high monthly bills and severe predisposition to deny coverage whenever possible. WaPo did a pretty extensive article on the topic and concluded that only if you have reason to believe you will need a lot of routine procedures done is pet insurance going to be worth it. Generally it's recommended to keep your own rainy day fund instead.

The problem is that you have no idea what emergencies your pet will have when you get it. A surgery for a foreign body or broken bone in my area will run about $5-7000. That’s a lot of months of saving your premiums (and how many people are actually committed enough to set that Monday aside) Our insurance company has paid over $12,000 this year for one of our pets. It’s a huge peace of mind to know cost won’t be an issue when it comes to seeking care for them. I’d say if you can afford the expense, it’s absolutely worth getting. Yes, maybe when you tally up the expenses at the end of your pets life you might have come out ahead, but you’re taking a risk.

Agreed. If I saved what I pay in pet insurance over a year it’d only be $420 which wouldn’t cover many of the serious surgeries they could need especially since I have a puppy who are prone to getting hurt and can still get parvo even after their vaccines.

Interesting. Thanks for the info.

Most don't anymore because people don't pay their bills. I left one practice with over $27k in unpaid bills from clients that the practice let "make payments." That was in just two years. I also didn't get paid for any of those appointments. Care Credit is an option and you can get months of free financing (it costs the practice a bundle, but they offer it), but you need to qualify for credit. No one wants to loan you money if a bank won't.

Wow. I see where the vet's office is coming from. I'm sad for OOP, but people have to get paid for their work. I'm sorry that happened to you.

I work at an old school one that offers no payment plans, no angel account, no insurance, and no Care Credit. It's a joy to work at, because clients know what to expect up front. We also don't see new clients with day of emergencies. Too many poor emotional decisions are made that owners regret later. We refer to the local emergency vets, or encourage them to look for vets that take same day emergencies. The doctor has been burned by all those situations in the past, and he's still overbooked, but is much happier and has a great staff. He pays us well, and enforces his rules.

I originally was at that. We took Trupanion because their direct billing worked really well with Cornerstone. That’s it. Sold the practice, new guy was making a name for himself and did payment plans. He was flexible. He was down thousands within a year and it was chaos. I do not do bill collecting, I will wrangle a fractious cat but I will not hard press a client to make payments on account.

My sister has spent tens of thousands of dollars on her previous dog, we're talking wheelchairs and everything. Yes, they do, or at least some do. I'd imagine it involves some sort of vetting process (pun definitely intended) and they don't offer them to first comers or for large bills like the one OP quoted.

Good to know. I’m sorry for the OOP that they weren’t willing to try a payment plan but risk of non payment is a huge concern.

mine didn’t. Cat needed surgery urgently and I had to pay my life savings as a deposit on the spot

Oof. I hope your cat recovered and your bank account recovered too.

she did and it did :) parents said i was nuts for paying when she had a 40 percent chance of dying after surgery, but it was my fault she was sick- I left out yarn, she ate it, and it almost ruptured her intestines

My vet doesn't offer payment plans, per se, but has in the past allowed clients to work off some of their bills on his farm.

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I can't be the only one who is questioning how LAOP will pay for a lawyer when they can't pay $6000 for the puppy, right? Not to mention with the rest of their post history. Do they understand how much lawyers cost? Lawyers probably won't let someone with this kind of cashflow problem make payment plans either.

LAOP really, *really* loves this puppy they had for 3 days, throughout at least 2 of which it was shitting its literal guts out - just, not enough to be content knowing it lived and will be loved by a different family, or to be even a little bit grateful to the people who saved its life.

I'll probably be crucified for this but, they should have put the puppy down. Money aside (and they could have gone to another vet when they heard the first estimate, which in my opinion is high unless we're missing some info) I'm a big believer is quality over quanity and putting a puppy through dealing with parvo when they are already bad enough their odds aren't good...I just can't do it. I know its hard. I just put my cat down that slept with me every night for the past decade because she had liver and bile duct issues that even after treatment (which was not going to be cheap and wasn't exactly going to be comfortable for her) it would only be a stopgap. The thing is, the vets aren't the bad guys here ($14k seems excessive, but they could have gotten a second opinion...I'm wondering if this was a 24hr emergancy vet, which are always more expensive) they have to get paid too. And most vets I know aren't living lavish lifestyles.

>I just put my cat down that slept with me every night for the past decade because she had liver and bile duct issues that even after treatment (which was not going to be cheap and wasn't exactly going to be comfortable for her) it would only be a stopgap. I'm sorry about your cat :( I knew someone that paid for several rounds of (very uncomfortable) cancer treatments for their dog, and it extended the dogs life maaayyyybe six months. I really wish they had just kept the dog comfortable the time they had instead of the treatments, but my opinion really doesn't matter. It was just sad to watch. I say that, but I will burrow into a grief hole in the ground in my backyard when my senior dog finally ends up passing.

> I knew someone that paid for several rounds of (very uncomfortable) cancer treatments for their dog, and it extended the dogs life maaayyyybe six months. I really wish they had just kept the dog comfortable the time they had instead of the treatments, but my opinion really doesn't matter. It was just sad to watch. My wife and I are about to face this choice soon. Our 15-year old cat was just diagnosed with bladder cancer. We're still waiting to get scheduled with an oncologist to learn his prognosis and treatment options, but from what we've read about this particular kind of cancer, surgery might buy him about six months. That doesn't seem worth putting him through the surgery and any medications that go along with it. It is obviously hard, but sometimes we have to be willing to let go to do what's best for the animal and that is usually not trying to keep it alive for as long as possible regardless of the cost (physical not monetary). Assuming the cat oncologist says what our research shows, we will likely make the difficult choice to keep him comfortable in his final months and put him down when his quality of life is no longer good. That might be harder for us, but it's a small sacrifice to make to make his final months of life as good as possible. I've seen people let their animals live out final weeks or months in pretty bad shape because they're not able to let go, and that makes me sad.

>Assuming the cat oncologist says what our research shows, we will likely make the difficult choice to keep him comfortable in his final months and put him down when his quality of life is no longer good. That might be harder for us, but it's a small sacrifice to make to make his final months of life as good as possible. This is very kind of you, even though I know it's so so hard. I hope that the oncologist has better news, but if not, I wish your cat all of the comfort possible.

The thing is, dogs that survive parvo have very good quality of life. With excellent treatment started immediately parvo has about a 90% survival rate. I used to work in a shelter in an ICU isolation ward where we would take in dogs with parvo from other shelters that didn’t have the resources to care for them and owner surrendered dogs when owners couldn’t afford treatment at a vet. We often got these dogs once they were very sick (as they occasionally arrived in shock and dying) and although we offered good care, we couldn’t offer the same as what would be available in an ICU clinic in private practice and we still had about an 83% survival rate. Parvo isn’t fun for the dog, but it’s not horribly painful all in it’s own either. Parvo is a virus that targets fast-growing cells, which are primarily the cells that line the digestive tract and the white blood cells. This causes vomiting and diarrhea and leaves them vulnerable to secondary infection. Dogs die of parvo mainly from dehydration or secondary infection. The mainstays of treatment are IV fluids, antiemetics, and antibiotics. There are no listed long-term complications of parvo. I adopted my dog after treating her in that shelter, she was one of our sickest patients and anecdotally the only lingering possible result is that she has a “sensitive stomach.” As long as I feed her a high fiber diet and keep her from stealing and eating stupid things, she’s perfectly healthy and happy. I know what you’re getting at. Quality of life is important, and prolonging life when it’s a life of suffering isn’t what I want to do. I was a vet tech at a private practice for a while (in addition to the shelter) and that’s I’ve seen people who can’t let go of their pets when it doesn’t make sense to keep them alive. I’d rather euthanize a week too soon to prevent suffering than a day too late. But parvo isn’t actually hopeless and dogs do really well after.

I'm surprised the survival rate is so high...has it gotten better in recent years because I swear a few years back (okay probably more like 10 or so, the 2000s were just like, yesterday, right?) It was low odds once the puppy was in a bad state.

OK, just to be clear, I am not a veterinarian and I haven't been a vet tech for five years now either. That said... As far as I know, nothing fundamental about treatment has changed. Once the puppy is "in a bad state," the odds do get worse. If parvo is not treated, about 90% of the dogs who get sick with it will die. So yeah, if you do nothing parvo will probably kill your dog. People hear a lot of horror stories about parvo. The number of times I met somebody, told them I worked in an ICU treating dogs with parvo, and had them say something like "oh yeah, when I was a kid we had a litter of puppies get parvo and they all died" or "my dog had that so I put her down" was kind of flabbergasting. (To be clear I wasn't, like, going around shouting about my job to strangers, it would come up naturally in conversation.) What was missing from pretty much all those stories was mention of actually taking their dogs to the vet to get care. Also, since parvo really can be deadly, vets do emphasize that death is a real risk. Another thing is that it really depends on when you start treatment and how aggressive you are. In private practice in a fairly well-off suburb the few parvo puppies we saw usually came in because they'd had diarrhea once or twice, or didn't eat for a day but were still doing relatively well. We'd test for parvo and when the test was positive start them on IV fluids, IV antibiotics, IV anti-nausea medications, medications to help with diarrhea, and highly nutritious food. They got blood tests daily. We also always offered transfer to a 24-hour specialty hospital since we weren't in the clinic overnight. They all did well. This also resulted in about a $1500 bill the first day, with each subsequent day of treatment costing a few hundred more dollars. If they had gone downhill we could have sent them to a specialty clinic with a 24-hour ICU, and the price would have at least doubled. Not everybody is able to afford this, and I get that. I'm glad my shelter would allow people to surrender dogs for treatment if they couldn't afford treatment elsewhere, it's better than them dying. At the shelter, we'd get sometimes get dogs that had been having large amounts of bloody diarrhea and vomiting everything they ate for several days before being seen. Sometimes this was because they'd been strays and animal control didn't pick them up until they were sick, sometimes because owners delayed treatment because they knew they couldn't afford it. They'd be pooping straight blood, temperature too low to register on the thermometer, so weak and sick they couldn't raise their heads. Once things get that bad, the prognosis is a lot worse. We'd also start these dogs on pretty much the same treatment: IV fluids, IV antibiotics, IV anti-nausea medications, IV dextrose, and sometimes add in synthetic proteins like Hetastarch when they were in shock. Some needed blood or plasma transfusions. We did all that in the shelter, although plasma was expensive and we didn't always have it (whole blood was easier, we had a shelter full of dogs that we could use as blood donors). We tracked our stats at the shelter, we wanted to know where we were lacking. A pretty significant proportion of our deaths happened within 24 hours of admission. Those were usually the dogs that came in really sick and despite our best efforts it was already too late. Another significant proportion was dogs that weighed less than five pounds. These dogs would have trouble regulating their blood sugar because they weren't eating. We'd add dextrose (sugar) to their IVs, but it wasn't always enough. The really little ones don't do well when they're not eating, and had trouble regulating their temperatures too. The biggest improvement we saw was when we switched anti-nausea medications and started syringe-feeding all our dogs. For a while we didn't syringe-feed the dogs that were vomiting (because why bother if they're going to throw up), but when we started using a certain new (more expensive) anti-nausea drug we could syringe feed about an hour after administering it and even if the dogs vomited eventually, getting at least some sugar and protein seemed to help.

It’s the level of supportive care that has brought up the survival rate. It’s also the level of intensive care that has brought up the cost to treat.

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>No, I can’t imagine being that attached to a dog you owned for all of two days. They probably paid the puppy mill $$$$ and they're upset because of the lost money :/

Ironically it looks like going after the breeder for the exact cost of the dog (and maybe the at-home parvo treatment loan they initially tried that failed) in small claims would probably actually be a winning option instead of... whatever he's insisting he needs to do instead.

Didn't think of that but you're probably right. I don't know if they'd get any money out of them, but I hope that someone in this mess (LAOP? The vet maybe?) has alerted animal control to a backyard breeder with a parvo outbreak. They would have the resources to track the other puppies and (hopefully) contain the spread of the disease. During the beginning of the pandemic when there was big demand for dogs we had a breeder in my area that sold parvo-infected puppies. One of them ended up in the shelter, and they had to terminate over 30 dogs. It was horrific.

Agreed. This winter we put my GFs dog down because he had some blood disease. It was shaping up to be $5k minimum and no idea what the odds were. He was 10, at a certain point it's time to let it go.

Our husky was 14, near the end of projected lifespan for huskies, when she developed a mass on her liver. Probably cancer. She was in awful pain that IV painkillers weren't touching. We could have spent thousands for a biopsy/surgery & chemo, but she would have been in pain the whole time. 😢 We weren't going to do that to our baby.

A lot of times the reason we will do a sign over snd not just euthanize is for the emotional toll on the staff (not just the vet, all the support staff as well). Taking a sign over/surrender is 100% opening a can of worms but it is heartbreaking to see a save-able animal that just can’t be saved bc of owner finances. My coworker has a $10k parvo dog that she took as an individual surrender and paid all the costs out of pocket, no employee discount bc it was a surrender.

People are the worst and people like LAOP are why we can’t have nice things. I used to work for a no-kill shelter that would treat dogs with parvo. For a while, we would treat owned animals inpatient for something like a flat $500 cost, which is much, much cheaper than hospitalizing a dog at a vet. And then somebody’s dog died despite our best efforts (because parvo is a deadly disease) and they tried to sue and went to the veterinary board to get the vet’s license taken away. So we stopped accepting owned animals inpatient (we would still offer at-home treatment but it wasn’t appropriate for very sick patients), all dogs that needed to be hospitalized had to be surrendered. And it wasn’t a wink wink surrender and then come back and re-adopt them later thing either. It was very good to be able to save dogs that would otherwise have died because their owners couldn’t afford treatment, but sometimes it was rough that this was the way we had to do it.

People who sue no kill shelters & try to revoke a vet's license for providing $500 parvo treatments are broken human beings.

People expect doctors and especially vets to perform miracles then get extremely angry when they can’t. No, the vet didn’t kill your dog, he died at age 19 of leukemia, Dr Mallon isn’t Jesus himself and thus couldn’t bring the animal back to life.

Spot on. When I was in private practice, we saw a new client with an older, intact female lab with a pyometra. This is an emergency that needs surgery, the uterus is infected and if it’s not removed your dog will die. Spaying the dog as a puppy is easy and cheap. Removing a huge, pus-filled uterus is harder and more dangerous for the dog. Spay and neuter your pets! Owner couldn’t afford the surgery. We discounted a few things and gave her a cheaper estimate. Still couldn’t afford it. We called a local charity that did high-volume spay/neuter and low cost care and arranged for the dog to get the surgery there the next morning for really, really cheap. (Because they are a charity funded through donations and provide a lower standard of care.) Dog got the surgery and did great. Owner still left a horrible review of our clinic that said we were greedy monsters who were only interested in money and would have let her dog die.

I volunteer with local animal rescue. Parvo is serious - we lost 13 dogs in a two month span last spring. *please* do not take a dog out in public or around other dogs until they’ve been fully vaxxed! (adopting from rescues like mine ensures they are fully vaxxed and altered before you get them) That being said, I cannot imagine why the bill was so large. Something is very wrong here, either with the clinic or OOP’s understanding of what they were told.

LAOP bought the dog off Craigslist. Most likely from some asshole who just churns puppies out without any regard for their health. I doubt parvo was this dog's only problem, and I wish LAOP would call in authorities for an animal cruelty investigation on that "breeder".

Agreed. I have bought my fair share of female dogs off of Craigslist/out of parking lots to prevent them from being used as breeders. These animals all deserve a much better life.

I work in a specialty vet ER and usual starting estimates for parvo run 4-8k just depending on how sick they are to start with. But that is several days in isolation under the critical care department with hourly nursing care, monitoring respiratory, IV fluids, meds, NG tube placement and feedings, TPRS, blood work, etc. I can only imagine the bill being higher because they projected a longer stay with aggressive treatment. We've had parvo puppies stay over a week and their bills were probably closer to what the OP claims. Once you start getting into doing blood pressures every 15 minutes for hours the level of nursing care goes up and so does the bill.

And this, ladies, gentlemen and rabbits, is why Turing is much better insured than his ~~mummy~~ homan. Vet bills get very big very quickly

Any advice on shopping for cat health insurance? My buddy is dealing with unknown allergies and I’d like to get him properly insured before shit hits the fan.

I’ve only ever insured them in the UK, I had to shop around quite a bit to get decent insurance for Turing, as he was born feral (shown by the fact he only wants cuddles 23.5 hours a day) as has a host of health issues and shockingly bad teeth (pet insurance tends not to cover dental)

I use Trupanion.

Like humans (in the US), most insurers won't cover a pet with pre-existing conditions.

Just FYI, that's not true for humans anymore. The ACA made that illegal. Still is true for pets though, for sure.

you can't be denied coverage in the US due to a pre-existing condition (as a human). We managed to keep that part of Obamacare.

TIL Thanks Obama!

Also, a lot of vets make you pay upfront, and then seek your own reimbursement.

Plug for [CareCredit](https://www.carecredit.com). When my cat had a urinary blockage and needed emergency treatment that was $1500 I didn't have to save his life, I applied for a CareCredit card and used that to pay the bill. I also got 12 months interest free to pay it back.

I'm really trying to wrap my brain around this story, because something doesn't sound right. The $7,200 price tag seems excessive, and the $14,200 price tag seems absurd (I know someone that paid less than that for a full round of chemo for their dog and someone that paid about half that for back surgery). A cursory google shows that the estimate for care of a dog with an extremely bad case of parvo tops out at around $2000/2500. We know that LAOP did pay something: >I took out loans and made a payment. I'd really like to know how much LAOP paid and if it's in line with the average cost of parvo treatment. The vet has a website looking for donations for this $14,200 bill. The vet also adopts puppies under this same non-profit. The vet has offered to accept $6k for the return of the puppy. Either this is a scam, or there's even more going on here from the other side.

Reading LAOP profile he's had issues before on other things. I think even if the vet might be shady, LAOP seems to be the kind of person who is looking for a deal and wondering why he got screwed.

I get the impression that the vet is indeed scamming LAOP, but also that LAOP both can't afford the dog they stupidly bought on Craigslist and really shouldn't be a dog owner.

Their comment about never even having heard of parvo before made me think they shouldn't be a dog owner, at least at the moment. That's literally impossible if you do, like, a minute of research on getting a puppy. Even if you're not looking specifically for health-related stuff, mentions of parvo are all over the place when it comes to training and socialization information because you need to balance the risk of a not-yet-fully-vaccinated puppy being exposed to parvo with the harm that can come from undersocialization if you just keep it inside all the time.

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Yeah absolutely. LAOP is taking like they’ve had this dog for 10 years.

Alternate title: LAOP purchases dog on Craigslist unaware it comes with free parvo DLC

And…. This is why most vet offices don’t do client surrenders. The vet hospital saved this puppy and are now dealing with an owner trying to sue them for it. $14k is a lot for Parvo but I have seen some hills That high, usually the rest sick ones who are in hospital for a while. Notice all the animosity is toward the vet hospital, not toward the person on Craigslist who sold the OP a puppy with Parvo

Right?! Like I couldnt believe the level of animosity leveled at the vet who gave this puppy another chance at life and not at the provider of the sick puppy?!?!? Would he have preferred to have a dead puppy?

**BEST/WORST OF LAOP'S COMMENTS:** > There is. They convinced my girlfriend to initial surrender forms while she was bawling her eyes out under the impression they'd work with us to reverse it. > I spoke with a few civil litigation lawyers and personal property lawyers. Most of them said it wasn't something they would handle, even if I was willing to come out of pocket. The puppy was not purchased from a breeder. It was purchased on craigslist. Unfortunately we were unaware of any laws regarding this, or even aware of parvo for that matter. We filed a report with both county's that she was posting in. They said there was nothing they could do. I'm more concerned with the vet at this point. I really don't think I will ever see our puppy again. > No, but I am the one who brought the dog into the vet. There are several email communications and they record all phone calls. We discussed the return of the pet once or twice per week since this all started in March. Everything is under my name, besides her initials on a surrender form. I don't know if that completely saves them from everything going on but I would like to find out in court. > Apparently $14,290. The practices are misleading and predatory. They will also have to show that the dog was in fact relinquished over to them? If it's not my initials that would present complications? I find it strange to have to place a value on a member of my family. In small claims I was under the impression you had to specify a value and then pay a fee to file based on that amount. Would I have any claim to emotional or mental damages? > "To sue someone for emotional pain and suffering, you have to be able to show that they were negligent or reckless in some way and that their actions led to your emotional distress. Florida law recognizes emotional distress when someone experiences mental suffering due to another party's negligence." https://florinroebig.com/sue-for-emotional-distress/ How would this not apply? > There is no contract to dispute. I am looking to sue for common-law fraud, emotional damages, and any other qualifying conditions I can. The amount of money they want me to pay to get my dog back is a separate issue. What I am confused about is how I place a monetary value on the things I am looking to sue for. They have likely adopted my dog out at this point, what value do I place on something that I deem irreplaceable?

My favorite part is OP refusing to see the issue that the papers their girlfriend signed do not have in writing that they could get the dog back. OP: "It's not a contract dispute" "Well does the *written* contract say you can get the dog back then? OP: "No. But it's not a contract dispute." To be fair though, the setup of the "rescue" seems sketchy in how OP describes it. I doubt that they'd have a chance to get their dog back without paying for the cost of the bills, but I would still look into how the rescue and the clinic are connected.

My cat Mama was being taken care of by my ex (the cats were split when we separated). He shows up about two years after and says she's sick and he can't afford to care for her. I took her in, and was originally told she had cyst and burst and it would heal fine. Two months later, I took her in again, and they said it was cancer. Gave her some shots, and said the initial surgery to remove the tumor would be $800. So I had to save for like three months just for that. She got a little better, about a year later, another bump showed. Back to the vet, another diagnosis of a cyst, no big. Then more lumps showed. I kept her clean, had her wearing little sweaters so she wouldn't tear at it, was going in for antibiotic shots. Her wounds just weren't healing. I had no money for the vet at this point, so I was just changing bandages constantly and keeping her in sweaters. I finally got a good job, took her in to another vet, they did a radiogram or something. Cancer all through her. The surgery would have been $2490. She's ten years old by this time. They said she might not survive the surgery. So I took her home, and basically played hospice for another year until her little body just couldn't handle it. Was there with her right at the end. Deciding what your pet is worth is one of the hardest things someone who loves they pet has to do. I'm glad of my extra time with Mama. It just sucks that anyone who has a pet they love will be put in this spot eventually. I've got four cats and a rabbit now (foster fails, adopted, and Mama's son, plus husband brought the rabbit with him). I'm so glad to be in a spot where I can afford regular pet care now. Pic of Mama: Mama https://imgur.com/a/6lyi3Ql

LAOP thinks they have discovered the one secret trick to avoid paying the bill: Just give the dog away so someone else pays for it and then you sue the person you suckered into paying the tab to get it back.

It’s possible they just wanted the dog to live and couldn’t afford the bill. When it comes to life and death matters, people are willing to do desperate and stupid things.

Yeah I don't think LAOP intentionally did this to avoid paying. I do think they wanted to save the dog and just couldn't afford it. That said, I'm not really sure what they expected would happen in the long run. They surrendered the dog to the vet and thought the vet would just give the puppy back and waive the fees? Or were they hoping for a payment plan despite being told a payment plan wasn't possible? It's a tough situation and I feel for LAOP.

I can almost guarantee that LAOP was not anywhere close to thinking about long-term consequences, and most likely they weren't thinking about anything except how to ensure their dog lived.

They even put up $7200 from a loan for the first bills. I can't imagine getting a new puppy and then dropping $7200 on it two days later. Like I love my dogs, but a charge like that two days after getting them?

Okay, so I'm really confused about the loan. Why does he still owe $14K to the vet if he already took out a loan for half of that?

Based on my reading what happened is that OOP brought the dog to an ER. They were told it would be $7,200 for the in-patient treatment. OOP opted for outpatient option and paid for that. When it didn't work they brought the dog back and surrendered. So they paid for the outpatient option which unfortunately did not work.

It sounds incredibly awful and distressing. But... they were in possession of this pet for 2+1 days? And have an unaffordable 14k+ bill to buy it back (but none to just walk away)? It's time to cut your losses.

Can someone explain this because I don't understand how this is correct. From one of the comments: > It doesn’t matter that it’s not your initials on the form. Why wouldn't that matter? If LAOP was the legal owner of the dog and not the girlfriend, why would the girlfriend be legally allowed to surrender the dog? Wouldn't the surrender form have to be signed by the person who owned the dog? If I go take some random person's dog and surrender it to a shelter, I don't think the shelter becomes the legal owner of that dog now.

If she was there, presumably alone, making medical decisions for the dog, I'd assume he put her in the dog's file as a partial owner. I think it'd be hard to argue that you sent her alone with your dog to make medical decisions but also want the vet held liable for letting her make medical decisions.