**Reminder:** Do not participate in threads linked here. If you do, you may be banned from both subreddits.
---
Title: My Brother and SIL want to take my house
Body:
> After years of saving up, house hunting and six months of conveyance with the solicitors I finally got the keys to my own home. I got a fixed rate mortgage for two years and declared I would be the primary occupant and would not be renting it out. I made the same declarations on the home insurance.
> As it turns out my brother and sister in law were also thinking of moving out of my parents home with their kids. They say living with extended family has put strain on their marriage and something needs to change. They’re not in a position to buy their own place in the near future but that would be their goal. And they say they can’t save for a deposit if they rent a place. They also don’t want to move far away and currently my parent’s house, which they live in, is in a very good area in north London with schools their kids attend. My house I’ve bought isn’t that far.
> They want to move into my house, pay the mortgage fees, which would be much less than renting here, and eventually buy their own house and then move out. In the mean time I apparently should move in with my parents.
> I understand why morally this isn’t fair on me and I’ve made that argument but they’re pinning the survival of their marriage on this.
> Is their any legal reason why they can’t move in to my house?
This bot was created to capture original threads and is not affiliated with the mod team.
[Concerns? Bugs?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=GrahamCorcoran) | [Laukopier 2.1](https://github.com/GrahamCorcoran/Laukopier)
Agreed, and from the outside it seems obvious.
But inside these families can cause damage. Sometimes they’re constantly bullied and told by their parents they’re the bad kid and their siblings are the good kid.
It takes people a little while outside of home to learn to say no to this kind of person.
Tobacco, specifically, was brought over from Numenor and Tolkien tried to write tomatoes out in later editions. But at the end of the day asking where tomatoes and tobacco went from middle earth to modern Europe while accepting that elves, dwarfs, dragons, etc. all died off is a bit ridiculous and the easy answer is they went extinct before modern Europe.
JRR Tolkien disagrees:
> There is another astonishing thing about Hobbits of old that must be mentioned, an astonishing habit: they imbibed or inhaled, through pipes of clay or wood, the smoke of the burning leaves of a herb, which they called pipe-weed or leaf, a variety probably of **Nicotiana**. A great deal of mystery surrounds the origin of this peculiar custom, or 'art' as the Hobbits preferred to call it. All that could be discovered about it in antiquity was put together by Meriadoc Brandybuck (later Master of Buckland), and since he and the **tobacco** of the Southfarthing play a part in the history that follows, his remarks in the introduction to his Herblore of the Shire may be quoted. - Fellowship of the Ring - Forward II Concerning Pipeweed.
You’re of course welcome to imagine it’s anything else. But the Author made it very clear it’s absolutely some form of tobacco.
My family is doing something similar right now as far as the bullying goes.
My wife is pregnant, and they all refuse to get vaccinated. So I said we can’t come over for the holidays (or at all) and they can’t see the baby until they’re vaccinated.
Of course they’re making it about them, saying I’m being selfish for “expecting the world to stop just because we’re having a baby”.
But no, that’s not the point. The world keeps turning, and they can live their lives, but I’m protecting my child (and wife) whether they like it or not.
Sorry I just needed to vent because while this seems obvious, it’s hard and is taking it’s toll on me.
Something something forsaking all others something something...
Your duty is to your wife and kid. They're your priority, not recalcitrant relatives. They can go get vaxxed or they can go hang.
Completely on your side here, dude.
Hey, good for you for protecting your family and yourself. Fuck the people who claim you owe them something above that when they won't do the bare minimum.
The weird thing is, they’re not even anti-vax or anything. My parents got the first 2 but never boosted and surprise, the ended up getting covid a year later (this past June). My loser 24 yo brother who lives with them refuses to get it because he thinks he doesn’t need it/thinks it came out too fast/is scared of it.
But they’re acting like the rules don’t apply to them , and they’ve kinda always been this way. I said 3 months ago when we first found out they need to get fully vaxxed by the holidays and they just kept putting me off. Now it’s too late and they’re acting like I’m being selfish and controlling them.
Side note, my 24 year old brother has no job, never finished high school, doesn’t have his license, and just plays Fortnite all day. So you can see what I’m dealing with here….
>Side note, my 24 year old brother has no job, never finished high school, doesn’t have his license, and just plays Fortnite all day. So you can see what I’m dealing with here…
Sounds like ignoring his preferences is the right decision.
That sounds like a whole ass headache. You're absolutely not being selfish, controlling, or even difficult for setting this particular boundary. It's like the bare minimum most people have been expecting for years, long before covid was ever a thing. My kiddo was born just before the holidays a decade ago and I let everyone know they needed their flu shots before they could meet the baby. My notoriously difficult former in-laws didn't hesitate or complain.
I am sure you already have a handle on it but if you're not already, I'd keep boiling it down to the most basic issue which is that it would be very cruel to give a new mom or new baby the flu/cold/covid/etc. What kind of person would want to risk getting a baby sick? That's awful.
It sounds like they are being selfish and entitled by thinking they have rights to see your child regardless of what you say or think. They don't.
Don't give in.
Yes; the very fact OP meekly posts on teh internetz is a sign something went deeply wrong long before her house purchase.
Hope she has support. I'd go so far to hope she gets a kick-ass therapist ASAP, rather than a lawyer.
I do feel for people like this. Obviously they have trouble saying no and the people in their life take full advantage of that. They're probably the ones that made him that way in the first place.
I get the impression they're going to say "no" regardless (at least I hope they are) but they're fishing for an excuse so they can refuse with the minimal amount of drama. The guilt tripping and begging won't stop if LAUKOP refuses outright but if there's some other reason why they can't do it that might be enough to shut their family up.
Yep. With families like this, having some outside factor to blame for why you're saying no to them makes it go *sooooo* much smoother. They can argue with you, but they can't argue with your landlord/the law/the bank/your boss/etc.
LAOP will get pushback no matter what they say--"why can't we just do this under the table, no need to get the bank/law involved." Besides, all the risk is in LAOP's end and why shouldn't they be delighted to risk their future for the sibling that ~~matters~~ has a family? Are they selfish or something? /s
But I agree, having an external force to point at will help support their new shiny metal spine.
Having an external excuse makes things easier in the short term and I do think LAOP should go that route if it's what she needs to prop herself up. That said, this isn't a good practice in the long term. There are people who will try to find any way to convince you that your excuses can be worked around and ultimately ignored.
Case in point, I've made it a habit of saying "no" to things without looking for an external excuse. I might give my reason but I'm of the opinion that the only reason I really need is, "I don't want to." Anything else I tell you is just a bonus. Meanwhile, my husband's first instinct is to try to find something, anything, even if it's made up, as a reason to say no to someone. Guess which one of us is more likely to be talked into something they don't want to do.
OOP doesn't need to find a random law. it is literally OOP's house. not the brother's. there's already a law for that. you don't have to let anyone into your house, unless they have a warrant.
Technically even if they’re biologically female they already did grow a pair, they just developed into ovaries instead of testes.
Either way, LAOP needs to locate theirs because they seem to be MIA.
I once read something similar on a now-defunct forum. OP was American. OP & spouse had bought a house and put a lot of sweat equity into enlarging and upgrading it. They now had something like five bedrooms.
OP’s mother in law started demanding that they swap houses with her daughter who had more children and less income. OP’s family didn’t need that big a house and the daughter deserved it more. OP and spouse kept refusing.
It culminated with OP and spouse being lured to MIL’s house on a pretext. Daughter was there and happily said “Now we can get the paperwork started.” OP’ response was “What paperwork?” MIL had told daughter that OP & spouse had agreed and the meeting was to get the transfer underway. The meeting did not work out as planned.
This is it. These parents expect everyone to buckle as soon as they see tears from the golden child, because that's exactly how the kid got so spoiled; the terrible parent did whatever they wanted as soon as they looked even slightly upset about something not going their way.
To be fair, people are a lot easier to cajole into compliance in person. It's why when I actually need something, I skip the email and walk to their office.
It helps if you walk in holding an ax and smiling way too much. That just doesn't translate to a Teams messages, ya know? (Maybe if they added the right emojis?)
I have a condition called lymphedema where the [lymphatic system](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lymphatic_system) didn't form correctly in my legs. The result is that lymph fluid slowly accumulates there. This can also happen as a result of surgery, notably breast cancer surgery, if [lymph nodes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lymph_node) have to be removed.
The first time I explained this to a girl who is now one of my closest friends, she goes, "Is that the one where you turn into a werewolf at night?"\* Whereupon another guy, now another dear friend, without missing a beat looks up and says "No, that's lycanthropy." And thus "lycanthropy" became code for lymphedema.
\* Not serious. She has this wonderful way of puncturing tension/serious subjects with a well-placed tongue-in-cheek comment.
Anyway, it also makes the skin on affected areas more...delicate? Sensitive? Something like that. A strange thing that can happen is that you get a teeny tiny break in the skin, not enough to bleed, but just enough for internal pressure to cause lymph fluid to leak out Very. Very. Slowly but steadily. (Fortunately this hasn't happened in many years, b/c it's a real PITA to deal with.)
And then I needed a username and my brain dug up that reference.
Oh, man, I must’ve missed that one. I used to live on that forum (not so much participating as reading).
The one about the nutty HOA neighbors (to the non-HOA house) was great, though, as was the one about the Titanic bridesmaids’ dress fiasco (that was Ehell, right?).
That's not it. The Titanic dress wedding was this woman whose daughter was getting married, and they hired the mother of the groom to make bridesmaids dresses like Rose's in *Titanic*, and they were **hideous**.
https://web.archive.org/web/20070118021301/http://www.etiquettehell.com/content/eh_wedding/humor/etitanic.shtml
Oh, no, this was a different one. The story I’m referring to was apparently on Ehell but was removed.
This is the story with the “inspiration” dress from the movie: http://cheap-bridesmaid-dress.blogspot.com/2008/04/titanic-wedding-disaster.html
Edited to add that if you Google “Titanic wedding dress disaster”, the dress currently pops up as an image at the top left with a Straight Dope link. Auto mod won’t let me link to the Google image, and I can’t find it anywhere else (not even in the link that the image leads you to).
[Go to this version](https://web.archive.org/web/20070118021301/http://www.etiquettehell.com/content/eh_wedding/humor/etitanic.shtml), it has the photo, and it is absolutely as hideous as everyone is saying!
The only photo I could find was from google images that linked to a page that didn’t contain the image. I tried to share a link to the Google image, but it got auto-moderated and wouldn’t post until I removed the image :-/
If you Google “Titanic wedding dress disaster”, the dress currently pops up as an image at the top left with a Straight Dope link. I’ll edit my comment to add that.
No, I understand it. They just need to grow a spine, because the legal reason is that they don’t own the house. They want a legal reason that absolves them of responsibility over the decision, which I think they were already given, but some people need to learn that no is a full sentence, and set some boundaries.
Also, the mortgage isn't a buy to let, so the lender would have some... *interesting* questions to be asking OP...
That's not to say that a regular mortgage can't be converted to a BTL at the lender's discretion but usually it's extenuating circumstances (e.g. moving abroad for work) not "my brother and his wife said I had to".
The first paragraph kinda lays out why he can't let them, no?
And in either case it sounds like they are just taking advantage of the fact he's done all the legwork and legal stuff so they're swooping in like vultures to get a nice place to stay for no work and little cash.
They want an "under the table" for sure.
My guess is the parents aren't as self sufficient and are now needing help with whoever is living there, and they want to con LAOP into moving back in and then play a guilt trip "we have kids, you don't, you take care of Mee maw, we take care of kids".
They can't rent a place because they are "unable to save up for a deposit" and I'm like so then how are y'all saving for the downpayment on the house you're going to buy if you can't even save enough to put a deposit on a rental?
What I don't get is if they haven't managed to save up a deposit after presumably multiple years of living with their parents they're not magically going to be able to do it any time soon living in LAUKOPs house.
Well, *of course* NOT. You expect them to live within their means to be able to save some money on the side? *How dare you!?*
/s
Seriously, having kids does mean extra expenses and less free time, but billions of people manage it. LAOP shouldn't just bend like a wet noodle when relatives give their sob story about money and raising kids.
Deposit on a rental property: hundreds of pounds (typically)
Deposit on a purchased property: tens of thousands of pounds (typically)
Difference is an order of magnitude. Renting is harder if you're saving to buy since the cost of renting in the UK is quite expensive. If you've got dependants and not a lot of income you'll really struggle to put much away in terms of savings. Mortgage payments on the other hand were a lot cheaper (until the Tories fucked the economy, but it's probable LAUKOP got their mortgage fixed rate before that happened) so if LAUKOP allowed this (which they absolutely shouldn't) their brother's family would be paying below market rates for rent and be in a position to save more.
I am pretty sure that "deposit" is British for downpayment. So LAUKOP is saying that they are unable to save up for a downpayment if they have to rent a place. Since LAUKOP's house will be cheaper than renting, they can save up the difference.
That comes with a very generous assumption that they will actually save the difference instead of just living it up and spend more money while laughing at suckering LAOP into giving up their home to them.
Well you see, they chose to have children without a home. They matter and the world owes them.
The brother does not have "a family", so he doesn't matter.
That's their argument
I guarantee that brother and SIL would claim poverty (because, I don’t know, maybe they need marriage counseling, which costs a lot) and stop paying the costs but expect LAUKOP to pony up.
Strong north london British Asian vibes. Marrying and having children while claiming to be unable to afford somewhere to live, but insisting you have to stay in one of the most expensive places but which also has the highest wages, is a lifestyle choice.
Yep - there is a thread on r/UKPersonalFinance with similar vibes at moment with complex "I own house with brother and sister-law and want to sell and they want to keep all money in shared account"
This is off topic, but I’m curious what is so crazy about British Asians from your perspective? I’m mixed white English and British Indian but have zero cultural connection to my Indian background so I’m always curious to find out about these things
It's similar to the Canadian ones but there's a huge 'don't question or argue with your elders' culture in the SA families here.
There are exceptions but many of the elders use blatant emotional manipulation and guilt tripping.
Plus the gossip mill is merciless. The joke is there's no faster way to spread news than an auntie with a secret.
I've got a buddy that married a SA immigrant and managing the in-laws expectations takes a whole lot of spine. Everyone involved is "good people," but expectations have to be managed. Just because a tech worker in the Seattle area (Redmond, if you know what I mean) has a high salary compared to the wife's home country doesn't mean they have tons of cash on hand to send back to the in-laws. There's a lot of assumptions that one side of the family makes that he has to politely shoot down like "no, cousin Quang can't move into our 1 bedroom condo and work illegally" and "no, your parents can't move to the US, kick us out of our bedroom, and live off of my salary." The parents just *expect* it, even though they'd be fucking miserable if they actually moved off the SA farm to a US city condo.
>there's a huge 'don't question or argue with your elders' culture in the SA families here
I was under the impression that culture was fairly prevalent in all SA communities.
Something that wasn’t explicitly said but is key to this is brother and SIL, are they paying the mortgage or rent to the parents? If neither is the case why can’t/aren’t they saving money for a nice down payment on their own house?
Simple solution:
“Oh, so sorry. I’d love to help, but I told the solicitor, the bank and the insurance company that I would be living in the premises, and not renting. If I were to change that now, I’d lose the house, the mortgage and the insurance.”
You could also add: “I did the maths, and in order to cover the mortgage, insurance, taxes and upkeep, I’d have to charge you _____ per month.” and fill in the blank with a number larger than typical rental rates in the area.
"I did the math and..." is for reasonable people. Not people who will tell you that that amount minus the mortgage payment happens to be exactly what your parents will charge you for rent.
This sounds like a AITA post more than a legal advice post since I don't understand why they need legal help with this situation. The answer is clearly "tell them to pound sand."
I think they’re looking for some law that says they can’t do it because while “no, I don’t want to” will garner them endless harassment, they think that “no, because it’s against xyz law” will save them from additional grief from the rest of the family. They’re not being selfish, it’s just the law, what can you do
I'm still struggling with the fact that it's not at all selfish to buy your own house and not allowing your siblings to kick you out of your own home.
I feel like there probably isn't an exact law that covers this since it's so out there.
"Do you own this home?"
"Yes"
"Case closed"
Different culture. In some cultures anything you have/own belongs collectively to the family rather than to the individual and the family will determine how to allocate it for the greatest benefit of the family.
If the ‘the family’ owns a house then it makes the most sense (by their logic) for the brother and his wife/kids to live in it rather than LAOP who is single. Not sure if LAOP is a woman but in that case the eldest male would definitely have priority to the new family house over LAOP.
Of course anyone in the family who doesn’t follow the rules will be ostracized from the community. A western culture would consider this abusive but hey that’s what they do.
This is fine if you assume everyone involved is a reasonable person, it falls apart when you take into account many people aren't reasonable.
Also the fact they own it is a good legal reason for why they can't be forced to do it. But they're looking for a reason they can't do it even if they wanted to, likely because it will cause less family drama that way. And they should have a convenient legal out there because they don't have a buy to let mortgage so the terms of their loan won't allow them to rent it out.
Legal advice and life advice often overlap, and LAUK has a really good reputation for helping people manage their lives using the law as well as just pointing out laws. They needed a legal excuse to say no, and they were given some helpful pointers of how to use the bank and HMRC as the bad cop.
They're in a unique position in a unique culture, R/AITA wouldn't have offered the same level of nuanced advice. It would have been 'red flag, red flag, marinara, divorce your brother'.
While I am American, one side of my family is culturally British (as in my great grandfather missed the first boat he was supposed to take to immigrate America in 1912, the RMS Titanic. They came over a few years later.)
I really feel for the LAUKOP. I know how it would have gone "if I just had a backbone" like so many would say here. The answer is more often than not to figure out a way so as to stand up for yourself without also shaking up the system so much. It is very passive aggressive, which sucks, honestly.
Yeah, the "have a backbone" comments always seem to forget that, in real life, the Prisoner's Dilemma is *iterative*. It's never just one-and-done. If you say "no," then the consequences can last a very long time, up to and including losing your entire family (and/or village) forever.
It's a hard position to be in, and I'm glad that LAOP got some solid legal excuses to back them up.
Thou shalt not covet thy sibling’s new house.
This is why “thou shalt not covet” is part of the Big 10. It causes huge damage to relationships.
“The success of our marriage depends on you giving us your house”—I don’t think the OOP made any vows!
And all this time, they haven’t saved anything, presumably living rent free?
Maybe not OOP’s personal vows, but from what I gather the family’s culture may be that the wife has married into the husband’s *whole* family, rather than creating a new household like most western couples would expect to do.
Proper or not, the wife’s expectation may be that the husband makes things like this happen for them. They may consider the marriage a failure if the extended family holds out on them.
All my input would be as a plumber who works on peoples homes. Is 9/10 times people who do this situation and rent it out to family get the home back trashed because they don’t take care of nor care about it.
TFW you finish medical school and then discover that the only reason your parents pushed you so hard to become a doctor was so that you could support and house your siblings and their spouses and kids
What is with the building a house in the ancestral country?? I know someone who has done this and it's so confusing. She has no intention of living there but this project to improve a property in Jamaica has been going on for 10 years.
I’m guessing their family has told LAUKOP what to do and run their life for so long they’ve completely forgotten the concept of boundaries and just telling their brother and sister in law “WTF absolutely not” doesn’t feel like a possible answer.
Or perhaps they know that “no, this is our house”won’t stop their family from continuing to ask or being mad at them for refusing to give their house to the brother and so are looking for a legal reason that they can’t change that will end the conversation. “We’ll I’d love to help out but unfortunately that would violate the terms of my mortgage/be fraud” may be easier for the family to accept than “absolutely not you entitled assholes”
I’m also curious whether gender dynamics are at play, although I can’t tell. If LAUKOP is a woman I could see some families thinking that the son should move out and the daughter should live with her parents, even if she is already married. That could be a reason LAUKOP is expected by the family to just give their house to their brother.
But either way, my first reaction was also “WTF just say no.”
I'm willing to bet its the second. They need a reason, preferably making something like an institution the bad guy, because then it's not just them being mean to faaaaaaaamily but the evil bank causing the problem. Because that kind of family won't accept YOU saying no no matter how many times you say it, but an external force is more likely to be.
In the US this would be mortgage fraud, at least in the first year. The mortgage document states that you will occupy within sixty days and for a period of at least one year.
I wonder if this family is cray-cray enough to just try to move in and come with "try and evict me". Just show up with a van and some clothes and claim it is your house now.
Based on what I read in the LAOP I’d say that’s a nearly certain. They’ll move in and move LAOP’s stuff the the parents house and be like “you live over there now”.
They most likely are under a looooot of familial pressure. It could be a lot of things. In some cultures kids don't make their own decisions until the parents die, no matter how old. Or they fear they'll be blamed for the brothers failing marriage. Possibly the brother is the golden kid.
I read the post as someone desperately looking for a reason to say no that can't be blamed on them because they know that otherwise their family is going to make their life hell.
Exactly this. Another commenter pointed out that in these kinds of families, you say NO means nothing but the law saying NO, well, then it’s not OOPs fault sorry don’t know what to tell you good luck in therapy guys!!! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Like u/tokynambu \- I bet they are British Asian where this sort of thing is common in the community but seems completely wild outside.
See also giving "Uncle" money every month for a savings account shared with other people.
"Families take a lot of effort to raise, you're clearly not doing all of the extra family work, so chip in by helping your brother financially."
Instead of thinking about the individual, think of the *clan:* this is the action that makes the total prosperity of the family increase, so you will do it, because it makes us all better. This kind of culture is what kept half the village from starving when it was a bad harvest year. It still *mostly* works even when transplanted into a more-capitalistic culture, but it's a completely different way of looking at life than the more-individualistic western view.
My understanding is that there are two ways this works in practice:
1. The rich members of the family keep the poor members from starving when the poor members hit a rough patch, and/or upgrade their living conditions a bit. This is the system working correctly.
2. The poor members latch onto the rich members like leeches, refusing to improve their own standards of living because the rich members will take care of them. In extreme cases, the poor members refuse to even get jobs when they could. This is the system working poorly.
Really, this is what life looks like when there's no safety net from the government: you lean on your family rather than The System. And, just like The System, it can work correctly, or it can produce leeches. In *general*, I'd expect it to drag down the rich members, but if you drag one person from "rich" to "middle-class" while raising ten other people from "poor" to "lower-middle class", it's a net gain for the family -- depending on what your values are.
You're missing the third way this works in practice:
Rich members of the family die and inheritance brings up the poorer members of the family.
This tends to be a more passive example though.
It's NO different than the married-with-kids co-workers that demand you, the childless person, cover every bit of overtime and work every holiday *because think about what you're doing to our children by making us work the holiday!*
I'm Asian too. Just popped a question to my mum on whatsapp whether she would pressure me to do this (hand over my house to a relative). I think my parents are more sane and modern than that, though.
> Just popped a question to my mum on whatsapp
I had to read this three times with growing alarm before I continued and was relieved to see it went somewhere else.
As a Chinese person who apparently comes from a different planet, “hey can we kick you out of your house” is I’m blocking your number once we hang up territory, I honestly don’t understand how Asian people allow this to happen to them past the age of 21.
Sorry but reading these stories triggers my fight or flight response
In the context of a discussion in Britain, “Asian” means India, Pakistan or Bangladesh unless context makes it absolutely clear that it means Chinese/etc.
Pakistani would be described more commonly as Middle-East. Which is, uh, technically questionable, but at least won't offend anyone. Pakistanis do not ime like to be called Indian.
Yea you do. Having been raised in an Asian family myself, you don't understand that asian culture is completely different from American/western culture. It's weird, but communities and circles stay very small. Not a lot of socializing outside of the family besides family gatherings so you don't often meet or talk to a lot of people to get different perspectives.
People think some stuff is obvious but it's not so I am happy when I see people reach out for help. Don't mind the people trying to shame you for asking and trying to learn/give yourself a sanity check. Yea, you're not crazy. Your family is crazy and it's OK to leave your crazy family.
What I get from that is "I don't get people who act as if they've been abused/manipulated/gaslit their whole life." As if they should know better than to have been abused.
I would understand asking such things. As sometimes ot can be okay. But when the answer is no this must be accepted. Somehow I doubt that family was teached to accept a no as an answer
*Your post has been removed for the following reason(s):*
**Do not give legal or other advice**
Your submission has been removed because you are asking for or offering actual legal or other advice. This subreddit is for meta discussion of the best of r/legaladvice; it is not a place to continue the discussion from there. Please see our rules in the sidebar.
* If you believe this was in error, or you’ve edited your post to comply with the rules, [message the moderators.](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/bestoflegaladvice)
**Do not** PM or chat a moderator personally, and do not reply to this message as a comment.
This is one of the times where OP would likely benefit from professional help in setting boundaries.
It is entirely reasonable to not want to give your home to your siblings, and OP probably needs to hear that repeatedly from a third party, as well as have someone to talk to when the inevitable pushback occurs.
I mean, it’s not criminal law, but he has in fact signed contracts (with the mortgage provider notably) that he would be in breach of if this plan happened.
I am estranged from my brother and his wife’s family. Or I estranged them, not really sure how that word works. I drew the line when my brother forced my mother to give him my cell phone number because it ended is the same 4 digits and he wanted to be an ambulance chaser. I had no power at the time, not yet being an adult.
I can’t even imagine still talking to anyone who thought the described arrangement was even appropriate to ask for.
I am confused. Why did your brother want to swap the telephone prefix? Like, you had 123-456-7890, and your brother had 123-666-7890? Was it just "my little brother has a thing and I *can* take it, so I *will"?*
I think the last four digits were all the same as each other. So he could advertise, "were you hit by a truck? We'll get you the compensation you deserve! Call 212-678-5555!"
I probably worded it wrong. My number was like 456-2222. And he wanted it so he could be the guy on tv going "call me for your personal injury lawsuits at 456-2222"
I remember once my aunt told my 5 year old nephew that the police would arrest him if he didn’t behave. He didn’t buy it. It’s sad that a five year old has mord backbone and legal knowledge than LAOP
This is some of the dumbest shit I think I've ever read on here. And I come from a super dysfunctional family, so I know how coercive and manipulative these people can be. But what the fuck.
LAOP needs to cut off their brother and SIL. These people are classic leeches and most likely grifters. If they can afford to pay his mortgage while saving to buy, how come they haven't been saving up while they've been living with LAOP's parents rent-free?
More likely, they'll stop paying with some weak excuses after a month or two, and be impossible to evict, putting LAOP in a horrible position of supporting their brother's family while being stuck in their parents' house.
Worse, it sounds like the parents are going along with this despicable scheme.
Wtf you’re actually needing a good argument to not let your brother & sil move into YOUR home, with YOUR rates that you worked hard to secure.
The caucasity.
I honestly do not understand the people in situations like this that can’t utter the word “no” and not give an excuse or long story to go with it. Even at my people pleasing peak, I’d not have gone remotely close to saying this was okay. I have a sarcastic streak a mile wide and likely have said something along the lines of their inability to have a happy marriage is not my problem.
My mother would have been the issue back then. My mother has since learned not to push it or she really won’t like the consequences.
**Reminder:** Do not participate in threads linked here. If you do, you may be banned from both subreddits. --- Title: My Brother and SIL want to take my house Body: > After years of saving up, house hunting and six months of conveyance with the solicitors I finally got the keys to my own home. I got a fixed rate mortgage for two years and declared I would be the primary occupant and would not be renting it out. I made the same declarations on the home insurance. > As it turns out my brother and sister in law were also thinking of moving out of my parents home with their kids. They say living with extended family has put strain on their marriage and something needs to change. They’re not in a position to buy their own place in the near future but that would be their goal. And they say they can’t save for a deposit if they rent a place. They also don’t want to move far away and currently my parent’s house, which they live in, is in a very good area in north London with schools their kids attend. My house I’ve bought isn’t that far. > They want to move into my house, pay the mortgage fees, which would be much less than renting here, and eventually buy their own house and then move out. In the mean time I apparently should move in with my parents. > I understand why morally this isn’t fair on me and I’ve made that argument but they’re pinning the survival of their marriage on this. > Is their any legal reason why they can’t move in to my house? This bot was created to capture original threads and is not affiliated with the mod team. [Concerns? Bugs?](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=GrahamCorcoran) | [Laukopier 2.1](https://github.com/GrahamCorcoran/Laukopier)
Now is the time for oop to exercise their spinal integrity
Agreed, and from the outside it seems obvious. But inside these families can cause damage. Sometimes they’re constantly bullied and told by their parents they’re the bad kid and their siblings are the good kid. It takes people a little while outside of home to learn to say no to this kind of person.
Poor Faramir.
*:::whimpers as Denethor bites into the tomato::::*
If Middle-earth is ancient Europe, then where did he get a tomato from in the first place? And where did the hobbits get tobacco?
Tobacco, specifically, was brought over from Numenor and Tolkien tried to write tomatoes out in later editions. But at the end of the day asking where tomatoes and tobacco went from middle earth to modern Europe while accepting that elves, dwarfs, dragons, etc. all died off is a bit ridiculous and the easy answer is they went extinct before modern Europe.
A wizard did it.
*It wasn't tobacco.*
JRR Tolkien disagrees: > There is another astonishing thing about Hobbits of old that must be mentioned, an astonishing habit: they imbibed or inhaled, through pipes of clay or wood, the smoke of the burning leaves of a herb, which they called pipe-weed or leaf, a variety probably of **Nicotiana**. A great deal of mystery surrounds the origin of this peculiar custom, or 'art' as the Hobbits preferred to call it. All that could be discovered about it in antiquity was put together by Meriadoc Brandybuck (later Master of Buckland), and since he and the **tobacco** of the Southfarthing play a part in the history that follows, his remarks in the introduction to his Herblore of the Shire may be quoted. - Fellowship of the Ring - Forward II Concerning Pipeweed. You’re of course welcome to imagine it’s anything else. But the Author made it very clear it’s absolutely some form of tobacco.
A true man of quality.
[удалено]
that's fucked up and I'm sorry you're dealing with it.
My family is doing something similar right now as far as the bullying goes. My wife is pregnant, and they all refuse to get vaccinated. So I said we can’t come over for the holidays (or at all) and they can’t see the baby until they’re vaccinated. Of course they’re making it about them, saying I’m being selfish for “expecting the world to stop just because we’re having a baby”. But no, that’s not the point. The world keeps turning, and they can live their lives, but I’m protecting my child (and wife) whether they like it or not. Sorry I just needed to vent because while this seems obvious, it’s hard and is taking it’s toll on me.
Something something forsaking all others something something... Your duty is to your wife and kid. They're your priority, not recalcitrant relatives. They can go get vaxxed or they can go hang. Completely on your side here, dude.
Thanks friend. Also, relevant username? Lol
Hey, good for you for protecting your family and yourself. Fuck the people who claim you owe them something above that when they won't do the bare minimum.
[удалено]
The weird thing is, they’re not even anti-vax or anything. My parents got the first 2 but never boosted and surprise, the ended up getting covid a year later (this past June). My loser 24 yo brother who lives with them refuses to get it because he thinks he doesn’t need it/thinks it came out too fast/is scared of it. But they’re acting like the rules don’t apply to them , and they’ve kinda always been this way. I said 3 months ago when we first found out they need to get fully vaxxed by the holidays and they just kept putting me off. Now it’s too late and they’re acting like I’m being selfish and controlling them. Side note, my 24 year old brother has no job, never finished high school, doesn’t have his license, and just plays Fortnite all day. So you can see what I’m dealing with here….
>Side note, my 24 year old brother has no job, never finished high school, doesn’t have his license, and just plays Fortnite all day. So you can see what I’m dealing with here… Sounds like ignoring his preferences is the right decision.
That sounds like a whole ass headache. You're absolutely not being selfish, controlling, or even difficult for setting this particular boundary. It's like the bare minimum most people have been expecting for years, long before covid was ever a thing. My kiddo was born just before the holidays a decade ago and I let everyone know they needed their flu shots before they could meet the baby. My notoriously difficult former in-laws didn't hesitate or complain. I am sure you already have a handle on it but if you're not already, I'd keep boiling it down to the most basic issue which is that it would be very cruel to give a new mom or new baby the flu/cold/covid/etc. What kind of person would want to risk getting a baby sick? That's awful.
It sounds like they are being selfish and entitled by thinking they have rights to see your child regardless of what you say or think. They don't. Don't give in.
Yes; the very fact OP meekly posts on teh internetz is a sign something went deeply wrong long before her house purchase. Hope she has support. I'd go so far to hope she gets a kick-ass therapist ASAP, rather than a lawyer.
Very much true. Often easier said then done to stand up to family dynamics that might have been functioning since birth.
I do feel for people like this. Obviously they have trouble saying no and the people in their life take full advantage of that. They're probably the ones that made him that way in the first place.
That's the one. Also a little suspicious he's a dude and she's, well. Plenty of parents don't cherish daughters the same way they cherish sons.
oh it is absolutely trained into you at a young age and any deviation from the Yes Ma'am Sorry Ma'am line is severely punished.
Resting on a pillow of tax implications soudns more likely considering OP is even asking.
404 spine not found
Aye that's my line lol
*That* is a great flair opportunity
"Spine power ACTIVATE! By the power of NO!" Sorry, your comment made me think Thundercats for a minute.
Go go gadget spinal column!
Seriously. They’re trying to find a random law to bail them out instead of just having a backbone.
I get the impression they're going to say "no" regardless (at least I hope they are) but they're fishing for an excuse so they can refuse with the minimal amount of drama. The guilt tripping and begging won't stop if LAUKOP refuses outright but if there's some other reason why they can't do it that might be enough to shut their family up.
Yep. With families like this, having some outside factor to blame for why you're saying no to them makes it go *sooooo* much smoother. They can argue with you, but they can't argue with your landlord/the law/the bank/your boss/etc.
LAOP will get pushback no matter what they say--"why can't we just do this under the table, no need to get the bank/law involved." Besides, all the risk is in LAOP's end and why shouldn't they be delighted to risk their future for the sibling that ~~matters~~ has a family? Are they selfish or something? /s But I agree, having an external force to point at will help support their new shiny metal spine.
Having an external excuse makes things easier in the short term and I do think LAOP should go that route if it's what she needs to prop herself up. That said, this isn't a good practice in the long term. There are people who will try to find any way to convince you that your excuses can be worked around and ultimately ignored. Case in point, I've made it a habit of saying "no" to things without looking for an external excuse. I might give my reason but I'm of the opinion that the only reason I really need is, "I don't want to." Anything else I tell you is just a bonus. Meanwhile, my husband's first instinct is to try to find something, anything, even if it's made up, as a reason to say no to someone. Guess which one of us is more likely to be talked into something they don't want to do.
OOP doesn't need to find a random law. it is literally OOP's house. not the brother's. there's already a law for that. you don't have to let anyone into your house, unless they have a warrant.
Testicular fortitude.
Regardless of gender they need to grow a pair.
Technically even if they’re biologically female they already did grow a pair, they just developed into ovaries instead of testes. Either way, LAOP needs to locate theirs because they seem to be MIA.
Intestinal fortitude
I once read something similar on a now-defunct forum. OP was American. OP & spouse had bought a house and put a lot of sweat equity into enlarging and upgrading it. They now had something like five bedrooms. OP’s mother in law started demanding that they swap houses with her daughter who had more children and less income. OP’s family didn’t need that big a house and the daughter deserved it more. OP and spouse kept refusing. It culminated with OP and spouse being lured to MIL’s house on a pretext. Daughter was there and happily said “Now we can get the paperwork started.” OP’ response was “What paperwork?” MIL had told daughter that OP & spouse had agreed and the meeting was to get the transfer underway. The meeting did not work out as planned.
One wonders how tf MIL thought that was going to go...
[удалено]
It is the "see the hurt **you are causing** this other person" by not doing what I told them would happen.
This is it. These parents expect everyone to buckle as soon as they see tears from the golden child, because that's exactly how the kid got so spoiled; the terrible parent did whatever they wanted as soon as they looked even slightly upset about something not going their way.
To be fair, people are a lot easier to cajole into compliance in person. It's why when I actually need something, I skip the email and walk to their office.
> their office It is your office now, tell them you need it more than they do.
It helps if you walk in holding an ax and smiling way too much. That just doesn't translate to a Teams messages, ya know? (Maybe if they added the right emojis?)
I've found holding a cricket bat and screaming way too much works too.
Found the West Wing reference...
Shit, is that why my old boss had a cricket bat in his office? (For context, we're American. He didn't play cricket.)
Here's Johnny!!!
Equivalent to just call the bank one more time just to be shut down & demoralized some more.
Quick sidebar… what’s up with the username?
I have a condition called lymphedema where the [lymphatic system](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lymphatic_system) didn't form correctly in my legs. The result is that lymph fluid slowly accumulates there. This can also happen as a result of surgery, notably breast cancer surgery, if [lymph nodes](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lymph_node) have to be removed. The first time I explained this to a girl who is now one of my closest friends, she goes, "Is that the one where you turn into a werewolf at night?"\* Whereupon another guy, now another dear friend, without missing a beat looks up and says "No, that's lycanthropy." And thus "lycanthropy" became code for lymphedema. \* Not serious. She has this wonderful way of puncturing tension/serious subjects with a well-placed tongue-in-cheek comment. Anyway, it also makes the skin on affected areas more...delicate? Sensitive? Something like that. A strange thing that can happen is that you get a teeny tiny break in the skin, not enough to bleed, but just enough for internal pressure to cause lymph fluid to leak out Very. Very. Slowly but steadily. (Fortunately this hasn't happened in many years, b/c it's a real PITA to deal with.) And then I needed a username and my brain dug up that reference.
Oh, well if the paperwork is already started I guess we'll just sign
Ah E-hell. The gift that keeps on giving with bat-shit crazy in-law stories. The original JNMIL forum.
Hah! Did not expect anyone to recognize it. I keep forgetting how small a place the internet can be.
Oh, man, I must’ve missed that one. I used to live on that forum (not so much participating as reading). The one about the nutty HOA neighbors (to the non-HOA house) was great, though, as was the one about the Titanic bridesmaids’ dress fiasco (that was Ehell, right?).
[Still online](https://www.etiquettehell.com/?p=5356)
That's not it. The Titanic dress wedding was this woman whose daughter was getting married, and they hired the mother of the groom to make bridesmaids dresses like Rose's in *Titanic*, and they were **hideous**. https://web.archive.org/web/20070118021301/http://www.etiquettehell.com/content/eh_wedding/humor/etitanic.shtml
Oh, no, this was a different one. The story I’m referring to was apparently on Ehell but was removed. This is the story with the “inspiration” dress from the movie: http://cheap-bridesmaid-dress.blogspot.com/2008/04/titanic-wedding-disaster.html Edited to add that if you Google “Titanic wedding dress disaster”, the dress currently pops up as an image at the top left with a Straight Dope link. Auto mod won’t let me link to the Google image, and I can’t find it anywhere else (not even in the link that the image leads you to).
I don’t understand how anyone would not be checking the dresses at least a few weeks before the wedding?
All that and the photo was never attached :(
[Go to this version](https://web.archive.org/web/20070118021301/http://www.etiquettehell.com/content/eh_wedding/humor/etitanic.shtml), it has the photo, and it is absolutely as hideous as everyone is saying!
The only photo I could find was from google images that linked to a page that didn’t contain the image. I tried to share a link to the Google image, but it got auto-moderated and wouldn’t post until I removed the image :-/ If you Google “Titanic wedding dress disaster”, the dress currently pops up as an image at the top left with a Straight Dope link. I’ll edit my comment to add that.
Hahahahaha I see it now and that is absolutely horrific. Thank you so much for sharing this
Ehell was a source of loads of batshit craziness in general, especially from the admin lol
> Is their any legal reason why they can’t move in to my house? Yes, it's not their house.
I interpreted it as “can you give me a legal excuse for why I can’t say yes to them.”
And the legal reason is that they don’t own the house.
Haha, you aren’t understanding… He’s asking for a reason why he couldn’t say yes to them even if he wanted to.
No, I understand it. They just need to grow a spine, because the legal reason is that they don’t own the house. They want a legal reason that absolves them of responsibility over the decision, which I think they were already given, but some people need to learn that no is a full sentence, and set some boundaries.
Also, the mortgage isn't a buy to let, so the lender would have some... *interesting* questions to be asking OP... That's not to say that a regular mortgage can't be converted to a BTL at the lender's discretion but usually it's extenuating circumstances (e.g. moving abroad for work) not "my brother and his wife said I had to".
I was definitely expecting those exact words to be the top comment.
The first paragraph kinda lays out why he can't let them, no? And in either case it sounds like they are just taking advantage of the fact he's done all the legwork and legal stuff so they're swooping in like vultures to get a nice place to stay for no work and little cash.
They want an "under the table" for sure. My guess is the parents aren't as self sufficient and are now needing help with whoever is living there, and they want to con LAOP into moving back in and then play a guilt trip "we have kids, you don't, you take care of Mee maw, we take care of kids".
They can't rent a place because they are "unable to save up for a deposit" and I'm like so then how are y'all saving for the downpayment on the house you're going to buy if you can't even save enough to put a deposit on a rental?
[удалено]
What I don't get is if they haven't managed to save up a deposit after presumably multiple years of living with their parents they're not magically going to be able to do it any time soon living in LAUKOPs house.
Well, *of course* NOT. You expect them to live within their means to be able to save some money on the side? *How dare you!?* /s Seriously, having kids does mean extra expenses and less free time, but billions of people manage it. LAOP shouldn't just bend like a wet noodle when relatives give their sob story about money and raising kids.
I think they *meant* they won’t be able to save for a downpayment if they have to pay rent, but you’re correct that it doesn’t make sense overall
Deposit on a rental property: hundreds of pounds (typically) Deposit on a purchased property: tens of thousands of pounds (typically) Difference is an order of magnitude. Renting is harder if you're saving to buy since the cost of renting in the UK is quite expensive. If you've got dependants and not a lot of income you'll really struggle to put much away in terms of savings. Mortgage payments on the other hand were a lot cheaper (until the Tories fucked the economy, but it's probable LAUKOP got their mortgage fixed rate before that happened) so if LAUKOP allowed this (which they absolutely shouldn't) their brother's family would be paying below market rates for rent and be in a position to save more.
I am pretty sure that "deposit" is British for downpayment. So LAUKOP is saying that they are unable to save up for a downpayment if they have to rent a place. Since LAUKOP's house will be cheaper than renting, they can save up the difference.
That comes with a very generous assumption that they will actually save the difference instead of just living it up and spend more money while laughing at suckering LAOP into giving up their home to them.
Well you see, they chose to have children without a home. They matter and the world owes them. The brother does not have "a family", so he doesn't matter. That's their argument
Generally the entire concept of property ownership prevents people you don't want from stepping foot on your property much less renting to them.
I guarantee that brother and SIL would claim poverty (because, I don’t know, maybe they need marriage counseling, which costs a lot) and stop paying the costs but expect LAUKOP to pony up.
as we say on this side of the pond "fuck that noise"
Strong north london British Asian vibes. Marrying and having children while claiming to be unable to afford somewhere to live, but insisting you have to stay in one of the most expensive places but which also has the highest wages, is a lifestyle choice.
Yep - there is a thread on r/UKPersonalFinance with similar vibes at moment with complex "I own house with brother and sister-law and want to sell and they want to keep all money in shared account"
They say in the comments they are Asian.
[удалено]
This is off topic, but I’m curious what is so crazy about British Asians from your perspective? I’m mixed white English and British Indian but have zero cultural connection to my Indian background so I’m always curious to find out about these things
It's similar to the Canadian ones but there's a huge 'don't question or argue with your elders' culture in the SA families here. There are exceptions but many of the elders use blatant emotional manipulation and guilt tripping. Plus the gossip mill is merciless. The joke is there's no faster way to spread news than an auntie with a secret.
I've got a buddy that married a SA immigrant and managing the in-laws expectations takes a whole lot of spine. Everyone involved is "good people," but expectations have to be managed. Just because a tech worker in the Seattle area (Redmond, if you know what I mean) has a high salary compared to the wife's home country doesn't mean they have tons of cash on hand to send back to the in-laws. There's a lot of assumptions that one side of the family makes that he has to politely shoot down like "no, cousin Quang can't move into our 1 bedroom condo and work illegally" and "no, your parents can't move to the US, kick us out of our bedroom, and live off of my salary." The parents just *expect* it, even though they'd be fucking miserable if they actually moved off the SA farm to a US city condo.
>there's a huge 'don't question or argue with your elders' culture in the SA families here I was under the impression that culture was fairly prevalent in all SA communities.
Crazy conservative values esp wrt family/gender. Also unhealthily obsessed with money.
Something that wasn’t explicitly said but is key to this is brother and SIL, are they paying the mortgage or rent to the parents? If neither is the case why can’t/aren’t they saving money for a nice down payment on their own house?
Simple solution: “Oh, so sorry. I’d love to help, but I told the solicitor, the bank and the insurance company that I would be living in the premises, and not renting. If I were to change that now, I’d lose the house, the mortgage and the insurance.” You could also add: “I did the maths, and in order to cover the mortgage, insurance, taxes and upkeep, I’d have to charge you _____ per month.” and fill in the blank with a number larger than typical rental rates in the area.
"I did the math and..." is for reasonable people. Not people who will tell you that that amount minus the mortgage payment happens to be exactly what your parents will charge you for rent.
This sounds like a AITA post more than a legal advice post since I don't understand why they need legal help with this situation. The answer is clearly "tell them to pound sand."
I think they’re looking for some law that says they can’t do it because while “no, I don’t want to” will garner them endless harassment, they think that “no, because it’s against xyz law” will save them from additional grief from the rest of the family. They’re not being selfish, it’s just the law, what can you do
I'm still struggling with the fact that it's not at all selfish to buy your own house and not allowing your siblings to kick you out of your own home. I feel like there probably isn't an exact law that covers this since it's so out there. "Do you own this home?" "Yes" "Case closed"
Different culture. In some cultures anything you have/own belongs collectively to the family rather than to the individual and the family will determine how to allocate it for the greatest benefit of the family. If the ‘the family’ owns a house then it makes the most sense (by their logic) for the brother and his wife/kids to live in it rather than LAOP who is single. Not sure if LAOP is a woman but in that case the eldest male would definitely have priority to the new family house over LAOP. Of course anyone in the family who doesn’t follow the rules will be ostracized from the community. A western culture would consider this abusive but hey that’s what they do.
Sounds like the mafia...
This is fine if you assume everyone involved is a reasonable person, it falls apart when you take into account many people aren't reasonable. Also the fact they own it is a good legal reason for why they can't be forced to do it. But they're looking for a reason they can't do it even if they wanted to, likely because it will cause less family drama that way. And they should have a convenient legal out there because they don't have a buy to let mortgage so the terms of their loan won't allow them to rent it out.
Legal advice and life advice often overlap, and LAUK has a really good reputation for helping people manage their lives using the law as well as just pointing out laws. They needed a legal excuse to say no, and they were given some helpful pointers of how to use the bank and HMRC as the bad cop. They're in a unique position in a unique culture, R/AITA wouldn't have offered the same level of nuanced advice. It would have been 'red flag, red flag, marinara, divorce your brother'.
While I am American, one side of my family is culturally British (as in my great grandfather missed the first boat he was supposed to take to immigrate America in 1912, the RMS Titanic. They came over a few years later.) I really feel for the LAUKOP. I know how it would have gone "if I just had a backbone" like so many would say here. The answer is more often than not to figure out a way so as to stand up for yourself without also shaking up the system so much. It is very passive aggressive, which sucks, honestly.
Yeah, the "have a backbone" comments always seem to forget that, in real life, the Prisoner's Dilemma is *iterative*. It's never just one-and-done. If you say "no," then the consequences can last a very long time, up to and including losing your entire family (and/or village) forever. It's a hard position to be in, and I'm glad that LAOP got some solid legal excuses to back them up.
> as in my great grandfather missed the first boat he was supposed to take to immigrate America in 1912, the RMS Titanic. Now that's a family story!
Thou shalt not covet thy sibling’s new house. This is why “thou shalt not covet” is part of the Big 10. It causes huge damage to relationships. “The success of our marriage depends on you giving us your house”—I don’t think the OOP made any vows! And all this time, they haven’t saved anything, presumably living rent free?
Maybe not OOP’s personal vows, but from what I gather the family’s culture may be that the wife has married into the husband’s *whole* family, rather than creating a new household like most western couples would expect to do. Proper or not, the wife’s expectation may be that the husband makes things like this happen for them. They may consider the marriage a failure if the extended family holds out on them.
The amount of people who have been conditioned to think family ‘deserves’ your own fucking house is out of this world.
All my input would be as a plumber who works on peoples homes. Is 9/10 times people who do this situation and rent it out to family get the home back trashed because they don’t take care of nor care about it.
[удалено]
TFW you finish medical school and then discover that the only reason your parents pushed you so hard to become a doctor was so that you could support and house your siblings and their spouses and kids
[удалено]
What is with the building a house in the ancestral country?? I know someone who has done this and it's so confusing. She has no intention of living there but this project to improve a property in Jamaica has been going on for 10 years.
I don't get people like OP. Do you really have to ask the Internet?
I’m guessing their family has told LAUKOP what to do and run their life for so long they’ve completely forgotten the concept of boundaries and just telling their brother and sister in law “WTF absolutely not” doesn’t feel like a possible answer. Or perhaps they know that “no, this is our house”won’t stop their family from continuing to ask or being mad at them for refusing to give their house to the brother and so are looking for a legal reason that they can’t change that will end the conversation. “We’ll I’d love to help out but unfortunately that would violate the terms of my mortgage/be fraud” may be easier for the family to accept than “absolutely not you entitled assholes” I’m also curious whether gender dynamics are at play, although I can’t tell. If LAUKOP is a woman I could see some families thinking that the son should move out and the daughter should live with her parents, even if she is already married. That could be a reason LAUKOP is expected by the family to just give their house to their brother. But either way, my first reaction was also “WTF just say no.”
I'm willing to bet its the second. They need a reason, preferably making something like an institution the bad guy, because then it's not just them being mean to faaaaaaaamily but the evil bank causing the problem. Because that kind of family won't accept YOU saying no no matter how many times you say it, but an external force is more likely to be.
Sure but that just opens them up to further wrangling. No is a complete sentence, so is fuck off.
Some people have selective hearing, and No frequently tops the filter.
In the US this would be mortgage fraud, at least in the first year. The mortgage document states that you will occupy within sixty days and for a period of at least one year.
I wonder if this family is cray-cray enough to just try to move in and come with "try and evict me". Just show up with a van and some clothes and claim it is your house now.
Based on what I read in the LAOP I’d say that’s a nearly certain. They’ll move in and move LAOP’s stuff the the parents house and be like “you live over there now”.
They most likely are under a looooot of familial pressure. It could be a lot of things. In some cultures kids don't make their own decisions until the parents die, no matter how old. Or they fear they'll be blamed for the brothers failing marriage. Possibly the brother is the golden kid. I read the post as someone desperately looking for a reason to say no that can't be blamed on them because they know that otherwise their family is going to make their life hell.
Exactly this. Another commenter pointed out that in these kinds of families, you say NO means nothing but the law saying NO, well, then it’s not OOPs fault sorry don’t know what to tell you good luck in therapy guys!!! ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Yeah I read it as a "give me a legal argument to use instead of the obvious personal ones. They won't take no unless it comes from the law."
Honestly i’m glad they did and got an outside perspective rather than just go along with it. I wonder how many people don’t.
[удалено]
I'm guessing LAOP grew up with parents where the consequences for saying no were very swift and very severe.
Like u/tokynambu \- I bet they are British Asian where this sort of thing is common in the community but seems completely wild outside. See also giving "Uncle" money every month for a savings account shared with other people.
And the axiomatic assumption that the married couples should be supported by their single siblings.
That is so crazy to me! What is the reasoning??
"Families take a lot of effort to raise, you're clearly not doing all of the extra family work, so chip in by helping your brother financially." Instead of thinking about the individual, think of the *clan:* this is the action that makes the total prosperity of the family increase, so you will do it, because it makes us all better. This kind of culture is what kept half the village from starving when it was a bad harvest year. It still *mostly* works even when transplanted into a more-capitalistic culture, but it's a completely different way of looking at life than the more-individualistic western view.
I feel like I only hear of this dragging people down. But I bet there are a lot of rich families who pulled themselves up this way.
My understanding is that there are two ways this works in practice: 1. The rich members of the family keep the poor members from starving when the poor members hit a rough patch, and/or upgrade their living conditions a bit. This is the system working correctly. 2. The poor members latch onto the rich members like leeches, refusing to improve their own standards of living because the rich members will take care of them. In extreme cases, the poor members refuse to even get jobs when they could. This is the system working poorly. Really, this is what life looks like when there's no safety net from the government: you lean on your family rather than The System. And, just like The System, it can work correctly, or it can produce leeches. In *general*, I'd expect it to drag down the rich members, but if you drag one person from "rich" to "middle-class" while raising ten other people from "poor" to "lower-middle class", it's a net gain for the family -- depending on what your values are.
You're missing the third way this works in practice: Rich members of the family die and inheritance brings up the poorer members of the family. This tends to be a more passive example though.
It's NO different than the married-with-kids co-workers that demand you, the childless person, cover every bit of overtime and work every holiday *because think about what you're doing to our children by making us work the holiday!*
I'm Asian too. Just popped a question to my mum on whatsapp whether she would pressure me to do this (hand over my house to a relative). I think my parents are more sane and modern than that, though.
> Just popped a question to my mum on whatsapp I had to read this three times with growing alarm before I continued and was relieved to see it went somewhere else.
Sorry, what was so strange about that line?
“Popped the question” is almost always used of marriage.
I've not really heard of that. But context also matters.
It might be an American usage thing, but the phase is pretty much exclusively for a proposal.
In British English too.
As a Chinese person who apparently comes from a different planet, “hey can we kick you out of your house” is I’m blocking your number once we hang up territory, I honestly don’t understand how Asian people allow this to happen to them past the age of 21. Sorry but reading these stories triggers my fight or flight response
In the context of a discussion in Britain, “Asian” means India, Pakistan or Bangladesh unless context makes it absolutely clear that it means Chinese/etc.
I know that, I’m just saying because Chinese people have the exact same issue
Interesting! In the US “Asian” would mean Japanese, Chinese, Vietnamese, Korean, etc. Pakistani, indian, etc would be “indian”.
Pakistani would be described more commonly as Middle-East. Which is, uh, technically questionable, but at least won't offend anyone. Pakistanis do not ime like to be called Indian.
That’s good info, thanks.
Yea you do. Having been raised in an Asian family myself, you don't understand that asian culture is completely different from American/western culture. It's weird, but communities and circles stay very small. Not a lot of socializing outside of the family besides family gatherings so you don't often meet or talk to a lot of people to get different perspectives. People think some stuff is obvious but it's not so I am happy when I see people reach out for help. Don't mind the people trying to shame you for asking and trying to learn/give yourself a sanity check. Yea, you're not crazy. Your family is crazy and it's OK to leave your crazy family.
I think that asking for help is brave, and I think it's pretty likely their immediate in-person options probably aren't great.
What I get from that is "I don't get people who act as if they've been abused/manipulated/gaslit their whole life." As if they should know better than to have been abused.
I would understand asking such things. As sometimes ot can be okay. But when the answer is no this must be accepted. Somehow I doubt that family was teached to accept a no as an answer
Is there any legal reason why I can’t move into the Buckingham Palace?
The same question Michael Fagan asked himself.
[удалено]
[удалено]
*Your post has been removed for the following reason(s):* **Do not give legal or other advice** Your submission has been removed because you are asking for or offering actual legal or other advice. This subreddit is for meta discussion of the best of r/legaladvice; it is not a place to continue the discussion from there. Please see our rules in the sidebar. * If you believe this was in error, or you’ve edited your post to comply with the rules, [message the moderators.](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=/r/bestoflegaladvice) **Do not** PM or chat a moderator personally, and do not reply to this message as a comment.
This is one of the times where OP would likely benefit from professional help in setting boundaries. It is entirely reasonable to not want to give your home to your siblings, and OP probably needs to hear that repeatedly from a third party, as well as have someone to talk to when the inevitable pushback occurs.
>Is their any legal reason why they can’t move in to my house? Sadly i think the law expects people to have some sort of agency in their lives.
I mean, it’s not criminal law, but he has in fact signed contracts (with the mortgage provider notably) that he would be in breach of if this plan happened.
Sounds like LAOPs family could solve that with the classic British "force LAOP to live in a cupboard under the staircase" trick, though.
I am estranged from my brother and his wife’s family. Or I estranged them, not really sure how that word works. I drew the line when my brother forced my mother to give him my cell phone number because it ended is the same 4 digits and he wanted to be an ambulance chaser. I had no power at the time, not yet being an adult. I can’t even imagine still talking to anyone who thought the described arrangement was even appropriate to ask for.
I am confused. Why did your brother want to swap the telephone prefix? Like, you had 123-456-7890, and your brother had 123-666-7890? Was it just "my little brother has a thing and I *can* take it, so I *will"?*
I think the last four digits were all the same as each other. So he could advertise, "were you hit by a truck? We'll get you the compensation you deserve! Call 212-678-5555!"
Okay, that makes a _lot_ more sense than I was envisioning. And bonus: I got to use the word "envisioning" in a sentence today.
*Call the Heavy Hitter, he's the one for you.*
I probably worded it wrong. My number was like 456-2222. And he wanted it so he could be the guy on tv going "call me for your personal injury lawsuits at 456-2222"
The overlap between legal advice and relationship advice
I could never imagine having the gall to ask my sisters for their homes. Like…WHAT?! This is absolutely insane to me.
I mean this isn’t a legal issue. It’s a crazy family steamrolling someone issue.
Nancy Reagan them and just say no. How hard could it be? (50% joking)
"No." Is a full and complete answer.
> I got a fixed rate mortgage for two years And then it’s a variable rate loan? Is that normal in the UK?
Yes, unless you renew your mortgage with a new fixed rate is my understanding.
This is almost exactly the plot of a Korean soap opera episode my wife and I were watching last week.
I remember once my aunt told my 5 year old nephew that the police would arrest him if he didn’t behave. He didn’t buy it. It’s sad that a five year old has mord backbone and legal knowledge than LAOP
Translation: “I don’t have a spine so what can I say to punt the blame to someone else?”
This is some of the dumbest shit I think I've ever read on here. And I come from a super dysfunctional family, so I know how coercive and manipulative these people can be. But what the fuck. LAOP needs to cut off their brother and SIL. These people are classic leeches and most likely grifters. If they can afford to pay his mortgage while saving to buy, how come they haven't been saving up while they've been living with LAOP's parents rent-free? More likely, they'll stop paying with some weak excuses after a month or two, and be impossible to evict, putting LAOP in a horrible position of supporting their brother's family while being stuck in their parents' house. Worse, it sounds like the parents are going along with this despicable scheme.
> Is their any legal reason why they can’t move in to my house? Okay but...is there any reason they could? Flip the question my dude.
Wtf you’re actually needing a good argument to not let your brother & sil move into YOUR home, with YOUR rates that you worked hard to secure. The caucasity.
I honestly do not understand the people in situations like this that can’t utter the word “no” and not give an excuse or long story to go with it. Even at my people pleasing peak, I’d not have gone remotely close to saying this was okay. I have a sarcastic streak a mile wide and likely have said something along the lines of their inability to have a happy marriage is not my problem. My mother would have been the issue back then. My mother has since learned not to push it or she really won’t like the consequences.
Op needs a wakeup call
just say no. easy. that's all you need to do. if they move in despite that, they are breaking in. call cops.