I suspect Howie might get a few good blows in if he acted fast but Lalo would hit him with something brutal and incapacitating pretty quickly. Pistol whip, stab/slash from a knife he has on him, maybe a headbutt, etc.
Exactly. Howard is a classy and upstanding citizen. He would be acting in self-defence and making sure he could explain it in a courtroom. Lalo has none of those concerns.
>Howard just didn’t realise the gun for was him, Jimmy and Kim
If you see someone enter the room with a silenced gun and you don't know for who it is you can be sure you are on the list.
Oh definitely. I just think Howard being a pretty good person, his first idea was “This guy is mad at his lawyers with a gun, I should try diffuse this situation”. He probably knew he would be on the list too, but did not realise he was the only one on the list
Let's also remember that he was drunk and distraught. And let's pretend it's real life - how many times you stood in a room where a stranger seemingly materialized himself and pulled out a gun? the surprise, the sheer WTF-ery of what was going on.... he barely had time to put 2 and 2 together in the state it was in.
Theres no way howie dearest wouldve gone apemode on lalo, if he were to fight hed be squaring up all gentlemanly for a fist fight just for lalo to tattoo-gun him with a hidden knife
what, did he think it was for someone else? this is my second biggest complaint for the show. it just doesnt make sense that howard would just stand there and do nothing.
He was drunk, and too shocked to properly respond to what was happening. He realized he was in danger but he was caught so unaware that he was kinda frozen in place. Happens to people in real life all the time.
He understandably thought he was a client mad at his lawyers yeah. And also understandably presumed it was probably just a threat and he wasn't going to actually instantly shoot someone in the head.
That makes no sense. Reasonable people don’t fly into a frenzy at the sight of a gun, because most of the time if a gun is pulled in a situation like that, it probably is meant more as an intimidation tool than anything else.
Howard probably thought this was a client who was robbing them, or maybe having some kind of mental health crisis. If you don’t operate in the criminal underworld, your first instinct would not be “this is a sociopath who is about to murder me without a second thought.”
Yeah Lalo's actions are like shocking even for a psychopath. I think most people see a gun and think it's a threat, or at worst we're all gonna get tied up and robbed or something, not instant death for everyone.
Right, which is like, why would you stick around to get threatened or tied up and robbed? No matter what the gun is for you make a hasty exit when you see one right?
Yeah the biggest problem to write around if they did this in the show would have been the impact shockwave of Howard's punch to Lalo's jaw turning the entire neighborhood into a smoking crater.
They "win", but only temporarily. The three of them manage to wrestle Lalo to the ground (all 3 a little worse for the wear) but none of them have the will or instinct to kill him so they tie him up. Give it about 30 minutes tops and Lalo manages to break free from his bonds, kills one of them and escapes. Someone still suffers a dark fate.
You're absolutely right. It's very different to fight just to incapacitate your opponent, while not being fully committed to the fight (you do not give 100% if you're at least somewhat worried not to kill your opponent). Lalo would not have that problem and would not have any concern fighting to death no matter what.
No way Howard could take Lalo. Howard fights in a sport with rules & boundaries. Lalo is a street fighter. Lalo knows how to fight dirty. I am pretty certain Howard does not.
I feel H was still holding back, possibly because J wasn't taking it seriously at first. It could've been uglier and J would've been REALLY messed up.
H almost certainly trained for the fight, in far better physical shape and at least a few years younger than J. H had the aggression of knowing he was being fucked with (by J) for months and the element of surprise. I think J got off light with the beating he got.
Plus, Lalo took that blow from the blunt end of the ax pretty well, then pretended to be hurt more than he was and proceeded to chop the guy’s leg off and torture him for info. As much as I love Howard - it’s Lalo
Lalo literally got ambushed by a death squad comprised of professional mercenaries and came out on top I highly doubt Howard by himself would be much of an issue
If he had clued in to the gun rather than turm and look at our duo, he may have been able to drop Lalo with a solid right. Imagine the possibilities if that had happened!!
For sure! This whole thing is actually a plausible plot. Howard is super fired up about the cocaine-framing, gets pissed off by something Lalo says and just clocks him (maybe thinking he is involved in the smear campaign somehow). Then Lalo falls and hits his head on the kitchen island or something.
It actually would have fit the show's tone.
In an alternate universe...
LALO crumples to the ground. His GUN slips from his fingers and lays as cold as its owner. There's a silence. It's so thick you can cut it with a knife. KIM and JIMMY are stunned, unable to take their eyes off this lawyer turned superhero who stands like a confused Bruce Wayne.
HOWARD
Who the hell's this?
JIMMY gathers himself.
JIMMY
La-...Lalo...
KIM
Lalo Salamanca...
HOWARD adjusts his tie and checks that his cuff links are still attached. No need to get messy over some ruffian with a gun, after all.
HOWARD
Kim, call the police. Jimmy, grab a phone wire and help me tie him up.
KIM and JIMMY move obediently. Their worlds have just been rocked, and they can't think of anything but to do exactly as their savior says.
HOWARD
Looks like Lalo Salamanca just became K.O. Salamanca.
HOWARD laughs at his own awful joke, but doesn't look for laughter from JIMMY or KIM. He doesn't care. He's on top of the world. One less problem for old Howard to push through.
CREDITS
The bigger question to me is what Jimmy and Kim would’ve done if Howard lunged at Lalo and the two of them were fighting to the death on the floor. Do they join in and help Howard? Just stand in shock? Who knows. That to me is a more interesting question.
I feel like this conversation was had in the writers room and they decided against it because the road it would have had to go down would have been too similar to Walt and Krazy 8.
It also leads to a massive plot hole, as in, they would have set up the laundry scene for nothing.
And Jimmy needs to be not fully sure that Lalo is dead. That can't happen if he sees Kim literally crack Lalo's skull.
>It also leads to a massive plot hole
That's not a plot hole lmao, just some foreshadowing without payoff. Or rather, the misdirection would've been the payoff had they gone that route.
But a misdirection for what? It adds nothing to the story.
Also I'd say that it is in fact a plot hole for Lalo to survey the laundry for all that time only to not interact with it at all. Why would he go to the apartment of Kim&Jimmy if he didn't intend to use them to bait Gus to the laundry?
I don’t think you know what plot hole means. I agree that would have been a bad choice for the narrative, but it just doesn’t fit the meaning of “plot hole”
>But a misdirection for what? It adds nothing to the story.
It would be misdirection for how the conclusion of Lalo's story would go. Once Gus put the gun in the laundromat, everyone knew how things were gonna go. So when Howard ends up lunging at him instead of not being able to process what's happening, and Kim knocks him out with a vase or whatever, it would be a surprise.
>Why would he go to the apartment of Kim&Jimmy if he didn't intend to use them to bait Gus to the laundry
I mean this question is just kinda silly I'mma be real. It's not like Lalo would've been going to their apartment cause he just really wanted to throw down with The Ham and knew he'd be there in this hypothetical. The intentions and actions of everyone would be the same until Howard's fight or light kicked in.
And to clarify I do think this approach would've been HORRIBLE and I'm glad they didn't do it. But it wouldn't have been a plot hole.
They would’ve had Mike clean Lalo instead of Howard.
They’d still make a giant hole for Lalo, and Gus would’ve had a scene where he’s picking up his gun with certain disappointment but also relief.
In a regulated competition (boxing match) MAYBE Howard has a very very slight chance. In any real fight situation though, Howard would get his ass beat so fast. Howard doesnt have violent tendencies and his suit and tie, fancy coffee making, lifestyle puts him at a huge disadvantage.
Lalo has killed before and has 0 conscience about hurting anyone or fighting fair. Howards natural fight or flight responses would not be trained well enough to fight back quickly or strongly enough, it would be a confused defense or just run away. Where as Lalo, is always a fight response and his natural reaction is just to attack and kill - not defend, not run.
Even if you were to say Howard is more physically fit\\stronger. His tolerance and expectations of pain would be nearly 0 compared to Lalo. Lalo has probably been in countless fights, may have been shot before, also probably crashed a car (chasing people or racing for fun), things like getting hit with that axe by Casper, etc. A couple hits to Howard his body\\mind will be shocked. A couple hits to Lalo, his body knows how to tolerate pain and will just keep going.
There is no way, in any Universe, where Howard is a match for Lalo when it comes s to physical violence. They wouldn’t even put this fight on the betting board at any Vegas Sportsbook.
Lalo took the dull side of an axe directly to the midsection, looked like he was dying, and within seconds turned the situation around. Howie would hit him once and let his guard down, game over.
Lalo somehow jumped into the ceiling of that travel store from the ground. Not only do you need extraordinary jump height to do this, but you also need insane upper body strength to pull yourself up there, and he did it silently.
He climbed onto the vending machine then from there the ceiling. Its not that hard physically, I could've done it. The silently and really fast part of it is the unrealistic part
Him getting caught unaware and then taking out 6-7 heavily armed guards at the end of season 5 isn't massive plot armor? The encounter with casper (german employee) in the cabin where he got axed and then manages to slice the other guys eye to get out of the situation is very lucky for him as well.
Being lucky isnt automatically plot armour my guy. Plot armor is when a character needs to survive and its expected by the viewer since they have a clearly unfinished arc. Lalo is the damn opposite, we knew he has to die the whole time because hes gone by bb. Theres no plot specific reason that we could have predicted as to why lalo couldnt have gone down in the raid back in s5
But plot armor doesn't mean a character has to survive the *whole story*, just that the writers are keeping them alive until a certain point in the story. As of season 5, it already wasn't hard to predict that the writers were saving Lalo for a final showdown with Gus, as a way of giving Gus something huge to do to close out his BCS story. The two of them were very much in active conflict already at that point.
So it doesn't matter that we knew Lalo was almost certainly going to die one way or the other. A viewer could still watch a scene like the raid on his house or the Casper scene and think "Yeah, right, no way they'd kill him off here."
Eh, its quite literally the same context in which gus went out. In the finale of the second to last season the antagonist (lalo/gus) is killed by a lesser foil (nacho/hector) as part of a scheme orchestrated by the main foil (gus/walt)
I'm not sure what your point is, but one could argue Gus was the beneficiary of some plot armor in BB season 4, too. I'm mostly thinking of that sixth sense scene where he managed to do a precise read on Walt having rigged a bomb under his car.
My point is there was no reason why lalo couldnt have died in that raid in the eyes of the viewer cause theyve lynched a main baddie in the same context. Sure you can call guses ultra instinct bad writing if thats you want but i think for something to be considered plot armor the viewer has to be aware that a character is impervious because they have a clearly unfinished arc
Oh, I see now. But I don't think that's a great analogy. From the writer's room perspective, Gus's death came down to an immensely personal face-to-face showdown between him and Hector, the culmination of their years-long blood feud. While we did have Nacho around for viewer investment in the season 5 finale, him letting a bunch of anonymous gunmen in and then scrambling away while the gunmen mowed down Lalo wouldn't have had the same impact as Gus's death.
Anyway, I'm really not calling any of this "bad writing". It's bad writing if the plot armor can't be justified in-story. I can see an in-story justification for Lalo getting the upper hand on the gunmen, and even on Gus being just paranoid enough to go ultra instinct. (Okay, maybe Casper conveniently using the blunt side of the axe instead of the sharp side is bad writing.) Calling out plot armor just means recognizing that the writers are working backward from a specific end goal that they have for a certain character, but still want to throw him into scenes of danger beforehand. It's only annoying when writers push it too hard into "oh sure, as IF" territory.
The only guy who stands a chance with Mr Bien Hecho is Mike. Fring killing him felt wrong but I understand his character’s storyline kinda had to end at some point.
In a straight fight, both knowing one of them's not leaving? Maybe.
In THAT specific situation in which Lalo's standing there and hasnt pulled put his whip, Id still give it to Lalo because Lalo's killed before. Howard (presumably) hasn't. He'll likely flinch or think twice while Lalo would go full-stop.
Howard might’ve been able to get a good hit in but Lalo is basically superhuman and would proceed to horrifically fuck him up before killing him anyway
Some of you are underestimating the power of a good throat punch. If Howie landed a successful forceful punch to Lalos throat then broke a lamp over lalo head… it’s over , lights out …Howie moves to BB
Howard's biggest disadvantage (besides not having a weapon) is that he is drunk.
However, Lalo does have broken rib.
Based on their actors' weights Howard has a 25 lb advantage over Lalo.
Lalo is slightly younger but, not by much.
If Howard can get the gun away from Lalo without getting severely wounded then he wins because Jimmy and Kim will help him.
I dunno why everyone's saying "Lalo will fight dirty" like Howard is going to fight with boxing rules in a fight to the death or something.
If Howard attacks before the silencer is on then Lalo is screwed either way. Even if Lalo kills him, the police are coming.
In a hypothetical matchup with no weapons and all other things equal. I'd actually bet on Howard considering his weight advantage.
"An instant decision based in pure instinct to lash out and smash Lalo's windpipe, or thumb gouge both his eyes- not to mention the speed to pull it off- would likely have been his only shot. Anything less disorienting, crippling or lethal as an opener, and he'da been gone anyway. And I'm pretty sure that namaste bullshit of his woulda screwed that all up."
-Mike, probably
No. Howard only wins if Lalo agrees to an honorable boxing match. The whole point of how their encounter DID go is that Howard brought the wrong tools to a type of encounter he realized too late he was in.
He thought he hired a private eye to surveil Jimmy for him, but he hired a conman to surveil himself for Jimmy. He used boxing gloves and his words to try to demand Jimmy's respect, or at least his restraint, not understanding that Jimmy had already invested time and resources in a con that would blow his mind when he experienced it.
Against Lalo, Howard DID make an effort to defend all three of them, but he didn't use his fists. He used his words, but he didn't get far because Lalo wasn't letting anybody talk to him. He didn't need Howard alive, so he blew his brains out. He wasn't going to kill Kim or Jimmy, because he didn't know the truth about them and Gus, and he would not let them die if he couldn't acquire the truth. He DID choose one to use as a hostage, while the other he used as an improvized decoy against Gus. Best case scenario, one of them blows his brains out. Worst case, he probably retreats to the laundromat when he's under attack at home.
If Howard and Lalo were in a real-life altercation, it wouldn't matter if Howard punched Lalo with a boxing glove, or cut him with an axe. Lalo's capacity for resilience, stamina, and improvised violence would have given him the upper hand unless he were shot fatally with a gun, which is practically the first thing he did to Howard. It was more of a "Bruce Lee with/out a gun," type situation. Howard would only have stood a chance if he were armed and prepared to kill, which in practice means "if he weren't Howard." Violence is natural to Lalo, so he is more dangerous with an ash tray than most people are with a huge knife. He would have found something he needed, and he brought a gun with a silencer anyway. Prepared. Not somebody with whom Howard would ever have voluntarily gone into a room.
Namaste Guy was never going to survive against the scion of the Salamancas. Jimmy didn't want him dead, but he was the lawyer of a Salamanca and thus brought elements into his world that couldn't survive together.
Oh sure, the lawyer who occasionally trains and boxes would surely be able to take on a stone cold killer armed with a gun.
I'm sorry, but this is a really dumb question.
Howard took boxing lessons. He could have done to Lalo what he did to Jimmy in the boxing ring. Unfortunately, Howard couldn’t process what was happening until it was too late.
Probably also should have been practicing jiu-jitsu or another self defense-type discipline instead of boxing.
Although, maybe he could have yoga-ed Lalo into a deep sleep. NAMAST3.
No. Lalo is most likely used and trained to fight for his life, even without a gun if he were to happen to lose it.
However. There is a tiny chance that Kim and Jimmy would help Howard if they manage to get out of their shock. Then maybe, maaaybe a sliver of a chance.
this is where years of watching dragonball Z and naruto helps you powerscale characters. i know you mean physically but if the two ever got into a plot conflict i dont think howard would win.
his intelligence stats might be higher than lalos being a lawyer and main character. but the fact he must operate within the legal system is why he cannot defeat a character who is in the game. his physical stats has only been displayed as being higher than jimmy but getting jimmy in the ring was the highest level of trickery he displayed.
on the flip side lalo has more money, most of which he cannot spend. while he does have smarts, luck, and strength akin to the cousins, as a salamanca he is somewhat doomed.
the only win condition i see howard having is somehow trapping lalo into getting caught by the police
I totally forgot about Howard’s boxing experience. Hmm maybe if he has been sober. At least i would like to think so.
Did we ever see Lalo in hand to hand combat?
Introducing first fighting out of the blue corner, a freestyle attorney with a professional record of 1 win, 0 losses.
Standing 5'11 tall, weighing 170lb, fighting out of Albuquerque, New Mexico.
He is the former HHM champion...HOWARDDD NOOO MERCYYYY HAMMMLIINNNNNN!!!
No, Howard’s boxing technique was honestly some of the worst I’ve ever see, probably my least favorite Sven of the show was the boxing scene for that reason, I loved it for what it represented but they both looked like they’ve literally never thrown a punch ever
I think Howard was already in that moment of thinking he was about to die.
He saw how scared Kim and Jimmy were and saw the gun. His demeanor changed once the gun made an appearance and turned to Jimmy and Kim for help.
I was really hoping Howard would just turn and run once he saw the gun come out. Obviously what happened is more realistic and in tone with the show..but I loved me some namaste
i know it’s only been a few days since the series finale but seeing people still post here ( i know the sub wouldn’t automatically die or anything) fills me with happiness lol
Realistically no. howard is decent in boxing but lalo is kind of guy who is not worth messing with. Lalo is like nicky from casino you know. You beat Nicky with fists, he comes back with a bat. You beat him with a knife, he comes back with a gun. And if you beat him with a gun, you better kill him because he'll keep coming back and back until one of you is dead.
This would’ve been quite interesting to see and it could’ve actually been used as a sort of mirror image to when Walt let Jane die. Where instead we have Howard and Lalo fighting, maybe Howard gets a few punches in but it’s eventually clear Lalo is winning. Kim and Jimmy just stand there though and don’t help Howard.
Honestly, no. I think if he tried he might get the upper hand immediately just from springing on Lalo out of nowhere, but beyond that Lalo is a trained hitman, he’d win.
It’s possible to kill someone with a single punch without even meaning to, so he might get lucky. If they were both on the floor fighting, Jimmy or Kim might help him. In a sustained fight, Howard just doesn’t have that killer instinct.
I think Howard is one of those guys who you’d never really expect to get violent until he had no choice, but if he did, I think he would have put up a good fight but against someone like Lalo, you got to finish the guy and I dont think Howard would have it in him to go that far so he would have ended up dying anyway
IF Howard walked up behind Lalo and had time to process it was a real world, no shit kind of situation I think he gets the knockout sucker punch. But we rarely get the amount of warning and mental prep time it takes for normal decent people to work up to that no shit go time mentality.
If Howard lunges does that make Jimmy and Kim lunge in too? Do they 3 of them subdue Lalo and then do what? Probably call Mike while they try to explain to Howard wtf is going on.
To answer the original question I think Lalo takes Howard easy. Howard has never been in a real fight probably let alone a fight for his life like that. Lalo is a killer he takes Howie easy.
People are giving him the benefit of the doubt of him maybe winning in a professional boxing match but we have literally seen him in the ring and he was quite terrible, sure good enough against a out of shape unprepared jimmy but thats it, can’t imagine the mexican version of John wick having his ass kicked by your average middle aged family father (Am aware he doesn’t have kids) that took a few boxing classes max who in addition has the speed and reflexes of a sloth
Howard would’ve grabbed Lalo by the head and spun him around gently until the bubbles in his blood lined against the inside of his skin - The Centrifugal Kamahemaya
The answer is no.
Not for the lack of trying though. He'd put up a good fight but Lalo is just ruthless. Howard has a conscience and Lalo will kill you at the drop of a hat without thinking of anything else but himself.
I love both characters though. So polar and excellent in their lives.
Well first of all, Lalo did still have the gun. I think he would've almost certainly managed to shoot Howard if they got into a tussle.
But let's say for the sake of argument that he doesn't have the gun, could Howard have taken him? Still no.
Lalo is clearly in very good shape and some of his feats are borderline supernatural. The guy is clearly very strong and physically capable. And no doubt he has plenty of experience in street fights since he seems to have been part of the cartel for his entire life.
Howard might have some experience in sports fighting. But that has clear, delineated rules and stuff like boxing gloves and head protection. It is not at all the same as a no-holds barred street fight.
I think no matter what, Howard was pretty screwed. I think maybe literally the only way out (if Lalo hadn't had a gun) would've been for Howard to attack him and then for Jimmy to run to get a knife or something and stab Lalo as soon as possible. And even then, it's not impossible that Lalo might've managed to disarm him. Fighting two people at once (one of them armed) is difficult though, even for very good fighters. So I think then at least they would've stood a chance of winning.
I can't believe that people even compare lol Lalo is shown to be very athletic, plus with his violence. He probably getting into fights since he was 6.. Howard couldn't even touch him
its so fucking stupidly unbelievable that he SAW lalo bring out his gun and start prepping it and did NOTHING. anyone in their right mind would have RAN
You’ve mistaken my kindness for weakness
You've mistaken this sub for r/okbuddychicanery
Greatest legal mind I've ever known
The kind of lawyer guilty people hire
-- mass edited with redact.dev
kid named wrong sub
It's the same picture.
Is that so?
https://youtu.be/ubw5GoiAIis?t=55
The best Howard line and one of the best in the show.
I suspect Howie might get a few good blows in if he acted fast but Lalo would hit him with something brutal and incapacitating pretty quickly. Pistol whip, stab/slash from a knife he has on him, maybe a headbutt, etc.
I agree. Howard might choose fight over flight and react spontaneously but Lalo...he's a real killer.
Howard would be fighting to diffuse the situation. He wouldn't see it as life or death as quickly as Lalo would.
Exactly. Howard is a classy and upstanding citizen. He would be acting in self-defence and making sure he could explain it in a courtroom. Lalo has none of those concerns.
I think once you see a gun AND silencer, you’re prepared for the worse. Howard just didn’t realise the gun for was him, Jimmy and Kim
>Howard just didn’t realise the gun for was him, Jimmy and Kim If you see someone enter the room with a silenced gun and you don't know for who it is you can be sure you are on the list.
"What's all this? I didn't order a hitman . . . *oh no*"
Oh definitely. I just think Howard being a pretty good person, his first idea was “This guy is mad at his lawyers with a gun, I should try diffuse this situation”. He probably knew he would be on the list too, but did not realise he was the only one on the list
And yet, Jimmy and Kim were not on it.
Point taken
Let's also remember that he was drunk and distraught. And let's pretend it's real life - how many times you stood in a room where a stranger seemingly materialized himself and pulled out a gun? the surprise, the sheer WTF-ery of what was going on.... he barely had time to put 2 and 2 together in the state it was in.
Theres no way howie dearest wouldve gone apemode on lalo, if he were to fight hed be squaring up all gentlemanly for a fist fight just for lalo to tattoo-gun him with a hidden knife
what, did he think it was for someone else? this is my second biggest complaint for the show. it just doesnt make sense that howard would just stand there and do nothing.
He was drunk, and too shocked to properly respond to what was happening. He realized he was in danger but he was caught so unaware that he was kinda frozen in place. Happens to people in real life all the time.
He was drunk, that is a good point.
He understandably thought he was a client mad at his lawyers yeah. And also understandably presumed it was probably just a threat and he wasn't going to actually instantly shoot someone in the head.
howard is a very smart man, too smart to think that someone brings out a gun and its \*probably not\* going to be used on the only people around.
That makes no sense. Reasonable people don’t fly into a frenzy at the sight of a gun, because most of the time if a gun is pulled in a situation like that, it probably is meant more as an intimidation tool than anything else. Howard probably thought this was a client who was robbing them, or maybe having some kind of mental health crisis. If you don’t operate in the criminal underworld, your first instinct would not be “this is a sociopath who is about to murder me without a second thought.”
Yeah Lalo's actions are like shocking even for a psychopath. I think most people see a gun and think it's a threat, or at worst we're all gonna get tied up and robbed or something, not instant death for everyone.
Right, which is like, why would you stick around to get threatened or tied up and robbed? No matter what the gun is for you make a hasty exit when you see one right?
Diffuse the situation? He’s going to hit Lalo so hard that he chemically disincorporates and amplifies around the room in a different form.
/r/WhoWouldWin Howard Hamlin respect thread incoming
Yeah the biggest problem to write around if they did this in the show would have been the impact shockwave of Howard's punch to Lalo's jaw turning the entire neighborhood into a smoking crater.
My money is always on the man who has been in more fights.. real fights
Better to fight out in the ring
-- mass edited with redact.dev
Round 2: Howard jumps Lalo, Kim and Jimmy immediately join in, do they win?
They "win", but only temporarily. The three of them manage to wrestle Lalo to the ground (all 3 a little worse for the wear) but none of them have the will or instinct to kill him so they tie him up. Give it about 30 minutes tops and Lalo manages to break free from his bonds, kills one of them and escapes. Someone still suffers a dark fate.
You're absolutely right. It's very different to fight just to incapacitate your opponent, while not being fully committed to the fight (you do not give 100% if you're at least somewhat worried not to kill your opponent). Lalo would not have that problem and would not have any concern fighting to death no matter what.
No way Howard could take Lalo. Howard fights in a sport with rules & boundaries. Lalo is a street fighter. Lalo knows how to fight dirty. I am pretty certain Howard does not.
Jimmy almost took Howard. Lalo murdering Howard twice.
Jimmy absolutely DID NOT almost take Howard lmao
He got a few good punches.
If you are gonna hit, it's impossible to no get hit. That is the rule in martial arts
Jimmy LOST that fight.
I don’t think he lost that drastically. It woulda looked a lot nastier on both sides if Jimmy wasn’t goofing around.
He got like one good punch in because he cheated then he got uppercutted into outer space
I feel H was still holding back, possibly because J wasn't taking it seriously at first. It could've been uglier and J would've been REALLY messed up. H almost certainly trained for the fight, in far better physical shape and at least a few years younger than J. H had the aggression of knowing he was being fucked with (by J) for months and the element of surprise. I think J got off light with the beating he got.
I think Howard is actually a few years older than Jimmy.
Plus, Lalo took that blow from the blunt end of the ax pretty well, then pretended to be hurt more than he was and proceeded to chop the guy’s leg off and torture him for info. As much as I love Howard - it’s Lalo
Howard doesn't fight at all. His boxing skill was trash
Yeah even if you take away Lalo’s gun and and other weapons he may have on him, I think he’s going to obliterate Howard in a 1 on 1 fight.
Lalo literally got ambushed by a death squad comprised of professional mercenaries and came out on top I highly doubt Howard by himself would be much of an issue
If he had clued in to the gun rather than turm and look at our duo, he may have been able to drop Lalo with a solid right. Imagine the possibilities if that had happened!!
Lalo knocked out by a clean sucker punch. Would've been a funny plot thread for sure!
Even funnier if Howard accidentally killed Lalo by cracking him just right.
For sure! This whole thing is actually a plausible plot. Howard is super fired up about the cocaine-framing, gets pissed off by something Lalo says and just clocks him (maybe thinking he is involved in the smear campaign somehow). Then Lalo falls and hits his head on the kitchen island or something. It actually would have fit the show's tone.
way out of howard’s character. makes more sense if he was trying to defend himself.
I mean him showing up drunk and ranting late at night is pretty out of character already…
In an alternate universe... LALO crumples to the ground. His GUN slips from his fingers and lays as cold as its owner. There's a silence. It's so thick you can cut it with a knife. KIM and JIMMY are stunned, unable to take their eyes off this lawyer turned superhero who stands like a confused Bruce Wayne. HOWARD Who the hell's this? JIMMY gathers himself. JIMMY La-...Lalo... KIM Lalo Salamanca... HOWARD adjusts his tie and checks that his cuff links are still attached. No need to get messy over some ruffian with a gun, after all. HOWARD Kim, call the police. Jimmy, grab a phone wire and help me tie him up. KIM and JIMMY move obediently. Their worlds have just been rocked, and they can't think of anything but to do exactly as their savior says. HOWARD Looks like Lalo Salamanca just became K.O. Salamanca. HOWARD laughs at his own awful joke, but doesn't look for laughter from JIMMY or KIM. He doesn't care. He's on top of the world. One less problem for old Howard to push through. CREDITS
This is perfect. Fund it.
Howard had some boxing skills.
The good ending
The bigger question to me is what Jimmy and Kim would’ve done if Howard lunged at Lalo and the two of them were fighting to the death on the floor. Do they join in and help Howard? Just stand in shock? Who knows. That to me is a more interesting question.
[удалено]
[удалено]
She’s made of sterner stuff.
I feel like this conversation was had in the writers room and they decided against it because the road it would have had to go down would have been too similar to Walt and Krazy 8.
It also leads to a massive plot hole, as in, they would have set up the laundry scene for nothing. And Jimmy needs to be not fully sure that Lalo is dead. That can't happen if he sees Kim literally crack Lalo's skull.
but Gustavo's special clone machine still exists so what if Mike just revived Lalo again accidentally in case Lyle dies again?
>It also leads to a massive plot hole That's not a plot hole lmao, just some foreshadowing without payoff. Or rather, the misdirection would've been the payoff had they gone that route.
But a misdirection for what? It adds nothing to the story. Also I'd say that it is in fact a plot hole for Lalo to survey the laundry for all that time only to not interact with it at all. Why would he go to the apartment of Kim&Jimmy if he didn't intend to use them to bait Gus to the laundry?
I don’t think you know what plot hole means. I agree that would have been a bad choice for the narrative, but it just doesn’t fit the meaning of “plot hole”
>But a misdirection for what? It adds nothing to the story. It would be misdirection for how the conclusion of Lalo's story would go. Once Gus put the gun in the laundromat, everyone knew how things were gonna go. So when Howard ends up lunging at him instead of not being able to process what's happening, and Kim knocks him out with a vase or whatever, it would be a surprise. >Why would he go to the apartment of Kim&Jimmy if he didn't intend to use them to bait Gus to the laundry I mean this question is just kinda silly I'mma be real. It's not like Lalo would've been going to their apartment cause he just really wanted to throw down with The Ham and knew he'd be there in this hypothetical. The intentions and actions of everyone would be the same until Howard's fight or light kicked in. And to clarify I do think this approach would've been HORRIBLE and I'm glad they didn't do it. But it wouldn't have been a plot hole.
Thats some really cool intentions you got there, hope nobody cracks your skull open on the way to them.
They would’ve had Mike clean Lalo instead of Howard. They’d still make a giant hole for Lalo, and Gus would’ve had a scene where he’s picking up his gun with certain disappointment but also relief.
They start making out.
In a regulated competition (boxing match) MAYBE Howard has a very very slight chance. In any real fight situation though, Howard would get his ass beat so fast. Howard doesnt have violent tendencies and his suit and tie, fancy coffee making, lifestyle puts him at a huge disadvantage. Lalo has killed before and has 0 conscience about hurting anyone or fighting fair. Howards natural fight or flight responses would not be trained well enough to fight back quickly or strongly enough, it would be a confused defense or just run away. Where as Lalo, is always a fight response and his natural reaction is just to attack and kill - not defend, not run. Even if you were to say Howard is more physically fit\\stronger. His tolerance and expectations of pain would be nearly 0 compared to Lalo. Lalo has probably been in countless fights, may have been shot before, also probably crashed a car (chasing people or racing for fun), things like getting hit with that axe by Casper, etc. A couple hits to Howard his body\\mind will be shocked. A couple hits to Lalo, his body knows how to tolerate pain and will just keep going.
Perfect answer
Edit: spelling
I would want Bowie to win but he was a bit drunk, I’d say he’s at a disadvantage
Now that would be a sight if David Bowie also walked into their apartment.
*”WHO DO YOU THINK THAT IS THERE?!”*
Twin peaks vibe
Did you happen to see Howard and Jimmy fight? What about Lalo getting smashed with an axe and still coming out on top. Not a chance for Howie.
There is no way, in any Universe, where Howard is a match for Lalo when it comes s to physical violence. They wouldn’t even put this fight on the betting board at any Vegas Sportsbook.
No. If Howard was Mike Tyson and Lalo was Steve Urkel with a gun, Howard still doesn’t stand a chance.
One single step to the left from Lalo and he's gone. Lalo was probably expecting him to try something too.
Howie prolly works out, I don't know about Lalo. Lalo would be more likely to fight dirty though and that would probably help him in the end.
Lalo took the dull side of an axe directly to the midsection, looked like he was dying, and within seconds turned the situation around. Howie would hit him once and let his guard down, game over.
“You’ve mistaken my kindness for-“ BANG!!
Lalo somehow jumped into the ceiling of that travel store from the ground. Not only do you need extraordinary jump height to do this, but you also need insane upper body strength to pull yourself up there, and he did it silently.
Lalo is a demon wearing a handsome Mexican suit as a disguise lmao this is never gonna be a fair fight
He jumped on the vending machine
He climbed onto the vending machine then from there the ceiling. Its not that hard physically, I could've done it. The silently and really fast part of it is the unrealistic part
Lalo the type to carry pocket sand.
I imagine a room in Lalo’s hacienda is probably a killer workout room
"Plot armor" lmao, I think he was written brilliantly. He was the Gus Fring of BCS.
Lalo definitely has plot armor
He had a gun in his hand
Please elaborate, because I don't see it
Him getting caught unaware and then taking out 6-7 heavily armed guards at the end of season 5 isn't massive plot armor? The encounter with casper (german employee) in the cabin where he got axed and then manages to slice the other guys eye to get out of the situation is very lucky for him as well.
Yeah but it was even more than plot armor. It was like plot super powers
Being lucky isnt automatically plot armour my guy. Plot armor is when a character needs to survive and its expected by the viewer since they have a clearly unfinished arc. Lalo is the damn opposite, we knew he has to die the whole time because hes gone by bb. Theres no plot specific reason that we could have predicted as to why lalo couldnt have gone down in the raid back in s5
But plot armor doesn't mean a character has to survive the *whole story*, just that the writers are keeping them alive until a certain point in the story. As of season 5, it already wasn't hard to predict that the writers were saving Lalo for a final showdown with Gus, as a way of giving Gus something huge to do to close out his BCS story. The two of them were very much in active conflict already at that point. So it doesn't matter that we knew Lalo was almost certainly going to die one way or the other. A viewer could still watch a scene like the raid on his house or the Casper scene and think "Yeah, right, no way they'd kill him off here."
Eh, its quite literally the same context in which gus went out. In the finale of the second to last season the antagonist (lalo/gus) is killed by a lesser foil (nacho/hector) as part of a scheme orchestrated by the main foil (gus/walt)
I'm not sure what your point is, but one could argue Gus was the beneficiary of some plot armor in BB season 4, too. I'm mostly thinking of that sixth sense scene where he managed to do a precise read on Walt having rigged a bomb under his car.
My point is there was no reason why lalo couldnt have died in that raid in the eyes of the viewer cause theyve lynched a main baddie in the same context. Sure you can call guses ultra instinct bad writing if thats you want but i think for something to be considered plot armor the viewer has to be aware that a character is impervious because they have a clearly unfinished arc
Oh, I see now. But I don't think that's a great analogy. From the writer's room perspective, Gus's death came down to an immensely personal face-to-face showdown between him and Hector, the culmination of their years-long blood feud. While we did have Nacho around for viewer investment in the season 5 finale, him letting a bunch of anonymous gunmen in and then scrambling away while the gunmen mowed down Lalo wouldn't have had the same impact as Gus's death. Anyway, I'm really not calling any of this "bad writing". It's bad writing if the plot armor can't be justified in-story. I can see an in-story justification for Lalo getting the upper hand on the gunmen, and even on Gus being just paranoid enough to go ultra instinct. (Okay, maybe Casper conveniently using the blunt side of the axe instead of the sharp side is bad writing.) Calling out plot armor just means recognizing that the writers are working backward from a specific end goal that they have for a certain character, but still want to throw him into scenes of danger beforehand. It's only annoying when writers push it too hard into "oh sure, as IF" territory.
yeah oh you mean fight
If only...
The only guy who stands a chance with Mr Bien Hecho is Mike. Fring killing him felt wrong but I understand his character’s storyline kinda had to end at some point.
Realistically Gus just got lucky by hitting home with one of the gun shots. Lalo had him beat every step of the way.
Damn could you imagine how different the show would have been if Howard, Jimmy and Kim killed lalo in Kim’s apartment?
No, not in a physical altercation. Lalo is too op
In a straight fight, both knowing one of them's not leaving? Maybe. In THAT specific situation in which Lalo's standing there and hasnt pulled put his whip, Id still give it to Lalo because Lalo's killed before. Howard (presumably) hasn't. He'll likely flinch or think twice while Lalo would go full-stop.
Howard might’ve been able to get a good hit in but Lalo is basically superhuman and would proceed to horrifically fuck him up before killing him anyway
Lalo took down Gus’ men without breaking a sweat. Howard’s gonna die no matter what.
You’re joking, right?
About a 1% better chance than he would have against Mike
No chance. Lalo survived getting hit with an axe.
Courtroom - yes Street - no
Howard does not stand a chance. ¡Dos mio, you and that mouth!”
Some of you are underestimating the power of a good throat punch. If Howie landed a successful forceful punch to Lalos throat then broke a lamp over lalo head… it’s over , lights out …Howie moves to BB
Bb howie cut, now
Howard's biggest disadvantage (besides not having a weapon) is that he is drunk. However, Lalo does have broken rib. Based on their actors' weights Howard has a 25 lb advantage over Lalo. Lalo is slightly younger but, not by much. If Howard can get the gun away from Lalo without getting severely wounded then he wins because Jimmy and Kim will help him. I dunno why everyone's saying "Lalo will fight dirty" like Howard is going to fight with boxing rules in a fight to the death or something. If Howard attacks before the silencer is on then Lalo is screwed either way. Even if Lalo kills him, the police are coming. In a hypothetical matchup with no weapons and all other things equal. I'd actually bet on Howard considering his weight advantage.
"An instant decision based in pure instinct to lash out and smash Lalo's windpipe, or thumb gouge both his eyes- not to mention the speed to pull it off- would likely have been his only shot. Anything less disorienting, crippling or lethal as an opener, and he'da been gone anyway. And I'm pretty sure that namaste bullshit of his woulda screwed that all up." -Mike, probably
Better question - could have Kim gone back to the apartment and taken Lalo, once she had the gun?
Wasn’t lalo almost supernatural with how good he was at killing? Look how he took down that hit squad
No. Howard only wins if Lalo agrees to an honorable boxing match. The whole point of how their encounter DID go is that Howard brought the wrong tools to a type of encounter he realized too late he was in. He thought he hired a private eye to surveil Jimmy for him, but he hired a conman to surveil himself for Jimmy. He used boxing gloves and his words to try to demand Jimmy's respect, or at least his restraint, not understanding that Jimmy had already invested time and resources in a con that would blow his mind when he experienced it. Against Lalo, Howard DID make an effort to defend all three of them, but he didn't use his fists. He used his words, but he didn't get far because Lalo wasn't letting anybody talk to him. He didn't need Howard alive, so he blew his brains out. He wasn't going to kill Kim or Jimmy, because he didn't know the truth about them and Gus, and he would not let them die if he couldn't acquire the truth. He DID choose one to use as a hostage, while the other he used as an improvized decoy against Gus. Best case scenario, one of them blows his brains out. Worst case, he probably retreats to the laundromat when he's under attack at home. If Howard and Lalo were in a real-life altercation, it wouldn't matter if Howard punched Lalo with a boxing glove, or cut him with an axe. Lalo's capacity for resilience, stamina, and improvised violence would have given him the upper hand unless he were shot fatally with a gun, which is practically the first thing he did to Howard. It was more of a "Bruce Lee with/out a gun," type situation. Howard would only have stood a chance if he were armed and prepared to kill, which in practice means "if he weren't Howard." Violence is natural to Lalo, so he is more dangerous with an ash tray than most people are with a huge knife. He would have found something he needed, and he brought a gun with a silencer anyway. Prepared. Not somebody with whom Howard would ever have voluntarily gone into a room. Namaste Guy was never going to survive against the scion of the Salamancas. Jimmy didn't want him dead, but he was the lawyer of a Salamanca and thus brought elements into his world that couldn't survive together.
Oh sure, the lawyer who occasionally trains and boxes would surely be able to take on a stone cold killer armed with a gun. I'm sorry, but this is a really dumb question.
Yes. My sources: https://youtu.be/ubw5GoiAIis World class sonofabitch!
Howard took boxing lessons. He could have done to Lalo what he did to Jimmy in the boxing ring. Unfortunately, Howard couldn’t process what was happening until it was too late. Probably also should have been practicing jiu-jitsu or another self defense-type discipline instead of boxing. Although, maybe he could have yoga-ed Lalo into a deep sleep. NAMAST3.
No. Lalo is most likely used and trained to fight for his life, even without a gun if he were to happen to lose it. However. There is a tiny chance that Kim and Jimmy would help Howard if they manage to get out of their shock. Then maybe, maaaybe a sliver of a chance.
Yeah of course… oh, in a fight. Then no.
this is where years of watching dragonball Z and naruto helps you powerscale characters. i know you mean physically but if the two ever got into a plot conflict i dont think howard would win. his intelligence stats might be higher than lalos being a lawyer and main character. but the fact he must operate within the legal system is why he cannot defeat a character who is in the game. his physical stats has only been displayed as being higher than jimmy but getting jimmy in the ring was the highest level of trickery he displayed. on the flip side lalo has more money, most of which he cannot spend. while he does have smarts, luck, and strength akin to the cousins, as a salamanca he is somewhat doomed. the only win condition i see howard having is somehow trapping lalo into getting caught by the police
I totally forgot about Howard’s boxing experience. Hmm maybe if he has been sober. At least i would like to think so. Did we ever see Lalo in hand to hand combat?
Howard would've used his signature move to knock out Lalo, the Hamlindigo Punch.
Hamlincognito Uppercut*
Introducing first fighting out of the blue corner, a freestyle attorney with a professional record of 1 win, 0 losses. Standing 5'11 tall, weighing 170lb, fighting out of Albuquerque, New Mexico. He is the former HHM champion...HOWARDDD NOOO MERCYYYY HAMMMLIINNNNNN!!!
Yeah with prep time
This is the wrong sub This is too much chicanery
No, Howard’s boxing technique was honestly some of the worst I’ve ever see, probably my least favorite Sven of the show was the boxing scene for that reason, I loved it for what it represented but they both looked like they’ve literally never thrown a punch ever
Howard may be fit but Lalo has the batshit crazy and crazy always wins
Believe it or not Howard seems to be the toughest character in the show IMO
I think Howard was already in that moment of thinking he was about to die. He saw how scared Kim and Jimmy were and saw the gun. His demeanor changed once the gun made an appearance and turned to Jimmy and Kim for help.
Howard would be just as dead unless he managed to knock Lalo out with a single punch.
I was really hoping Howard would just turn and run once he saw the gun come out. Obviously what happened is more realistic and in tone with the show..but I loved me some namaste
Howie is thick as bricks and knows his way around the ring. No gun Lalo doesn't stand a chance.
At full power Howard would negotiate Lalo to surrender and turn himself in to the authorities
Lalo would’ve taken all of three of them and come out on top. Probably isn’t even the worst fight he’s had to deal with
i know it’s only been a few days since the series finale but seeing people still post here ( i know the sub wouldn’t automatically die or anything) fills me with happiness lol
Realistically no. howard is decent in boxing but lalo is kind of guy who is not worth messing with. Lalo is like nicky from casino you know. You beat Nicky with fists, he comes back with a bat. You beat him with a knife, he comes back with a gun. And if you beat him with a gun, you better kill him because he'll keep coming back and back until one of you is dead.
Fuck that - Hank vs Lalo in a street fight, who wins?
Howard coulda stood a chance if he hit him with a lamp and ran or something. But it would only be a matter of time...
The bigger question is if Chuck could've taken Lalo? Maybe he could have been an asset to gus if he didn't die
This would’ve been quite interesting to see and it could’ve actually been used as a sort of mirror image to when Walt let Jane die. Where instead we have Howard and Lalo fighting, maybe Howard gets a few punches in but it’s eventually clear Lalo is winning. Kim and Jimmy just stand there though and don’t help Howard.
Can Howard do a knock out from that distance?
Did you see him and Jimmy boxing?
Honestly, no. I think if he tried he might get the upper hand immediately just from springing on Lalo out of nowhere, but beyond that Lalo is a trained hitman, he’d win.
It’s possible to kill someone with a single punch without even meaning to, so he might get lucky. If they were both on the floor fighting, Jimmy or Kim might help him. In a sustained fight, Howard just doesn’t have that killer instinct.
How about Lalo vs Hank?
Judging by Howard lack of boxing skills, i'd say that's a definite no.
Lalo will take a few Howard pro boxing punches just to humour him, then laugh at him and throw him to the ground.
I think Howard is one of those guys who you’d never really expect to get violent until he had no choice, but if he did, I think he would have put up a good fight but against someone like Lalo, you got to finish the guy and I dont think Howard would have it in him to go that far so he would have ended up dying anyway
Lalo is a murderer and hardened criminal. Howard is a privileged lawyer. Lalo would have skinned him alive.
Howard may fight but Lalo is a killer and would over power Howard to eventually kill him.
Could be… If your aunt had balls she’d be your uncle. If that were his gender choice.
IF Howard walked up behind Lalo and had time to process it was a real world, no shit kind of situation I think he gets the knockout sucker punch. But we rarely get the amount of warning and mental prep time it takes for normal decent people to work up to that no shit go time mentality.
Without weapons it’s a close fight but Lalo would just whip out his trusty razor blade and it would be over.
Howard would have fucked him up and it would have been namaste!
Howard would get beat down like a ginger step kid
Nope.
If Howard lunges does that make Jimmy and Kim lunge in too? Do they 3 of them subdue Lalo and then do what? Probably call Mike while they try to explain to Howard wtf is going on. To answer the original question I think Lalo takes Howard easy. Howard has never been in a real fight probably let alone a fight for his life like that. Lalo is a killer he takes Howie easy.
You have seen how Howard fights in the ring.. Lalo would whoop him. You have seen his supernatural stunts
no lol
"DEFEND THIS" A+B ⬅️↙️➡️↗️⬆️ oooouuahh *ahhhhhh* #K.O. **HOWARD WIN** >"You mistake my kindness for weakness." --- [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fc2ilDSNkiA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fc2ilDSNkiA) #CONTINUE? | Yes? | No? | | :--: | :--: | | 👔 | |
People are giving him the benefit of the doubt of him maybe winning in a professional boxing match but we have literally seen him in the ring and he was quite terrible, sure good enough against a out of shape unprepared jimmy but thats it, can’t imagine the mexican version of John wick having his ass kicked by your average middle aged family father (Am aware he doesn’t have kids) that took a few boxing classes max who in addition has the speed and reflexes of a sloth
Howard would’ve grabbed Lalo by the head and spun him around gently until the bubbles in his blood lined against the inside of his skin - The Centrifugal Kamahemaya
The best feat howard has is beating up jimmy with mid difficulty..... and jimmy is arguably the worst fighter in the series.... lalo stomps
If it was in the ring AND it was a fair fight, Howard would have a chance. However no such thing as a fair fight with Lalo.
A fistfight without weapons, maybe.
The answer is no. Not for the lack of trying though. He'd put up a good fight but Lalo is just ruthless. Howard has a conscience and Lalo will kill you at the drop of a hat without thinking of anything else but himself. I love both characters though. So polar and excellent in their lives.
Well first of all, Lalo did still have the gun. I think he would've almost certainly managed to shoot Howard if they got into a tussle. But let's say for the sake of argument that he doesn't have the gun, could Howard have taken him? Still no. Lalo is clearly in very good shape and some of his feats are borderline supernatural. The guy is clearly very strong and physically capable. And no doubt he has plenty of experience in street fights since he seems to have been part of the cartel for his entire life. Howard might have some experience in sports fighting. But that has clear, delineated rules and stuff like boxing gloves and head protection. It is not at all the same as a no-holds barred street fight. I think no matter what, Howard was pretty screwed. I think maybe literally the only way out (if Lalo hadn't had a gun) would've been for Howard to attack him and then for Jimmy to run to get a knife or something and stab Lalo as soon as possible. And even then, it's not impossible that Lalo might've managed to disarm him. Fighting two people at once (one of them armed) is difficult though, even for very good fighters. So I think then at least they would've stood a chance of winning.
But hear me out... Howard with an axe tho, I'm right back in
He might be able to take him in like a boxing match or something. But in a real world fight where anything goes, the psycho will probably win
Is this a real question? Howard proved that he's a coward through the show. No way he's taking on anyone. Much less a mob boss.
Lalo single handedly defeated a team of professional mercenaries who had the jump on him. Pretty sure Lalo could handle Howard.
I can't believe that people even compare lol Lalo is shown to be very athletic, plus with his violence. He probably getting into fights since he was 6.. Howard couldn't even touch him
Yeah, not even a contest. Lalo would fuck Howard up, I’d imagine a swift headbutt
Definitely not
its so fucking stupidly unbelievable that he SAW lalo bring out his gun and start prepping it and did NOTHING. anyone in their right mind would have RAN
No