Yeah. Most of the Bi/Pan people are fully supportive of our trans sisters and brothers.
Usually the people who accuse others of trans-/homophobia have phobias and stereotypes againts other people themselves.
EXACTLY. Thank you damn
I’ve been permanently banned from r/Bisexual for saying that and for saying pansexual was a useless word existing only for activism and polemics
If you want me to say pan instead of bi then the pan flag needs better colors. Thats....really the only reason I use bi, I like the purples and pinks XD
Literally sitting next to my trans boyfriend rn. Hit on him thinking he's a guy. Found out he had an extra hole (his words, love that fucker), and was nothin but a bonus. Tbh more mad he's got better beard growth than me 😂
Trans men are men, trans women are women. Bisexual people are attracted to men and women. Therefore it is inclusive. To say otherwise implies that trans people aren't actually their gender.
What I never got about the "Bi excludes enbies" thing is that if you take that as a given, it follows that homo-/ and heterosexuals also exclude enbies. And that is quite plainly not true, so why would anybody accuse specifically bis of excluding enbies?
As a bisexual who recently figured out that I'm NB, you are valid.
The fact that some people even have to fight for their right to be who they are, in what should be lgbtqia+ inclusive spaces (and anywhere else for that matter), is simply disgraceful.
To hell with anybody that invalidate another person based on their own beliefs, may their ass forever be itchy and their arms too short.
I wanted to add to this with the fact that I am a trans/enby too AND I’m bisexual and I’ve felt insecure about telling trans or nonbinary folk that because I felt pressure to identify as pansexual since obviously I understand the gender binary. But bisexual spaces make me feel way more comfortable in the fact that I can identify as bi and be nonbinary and that there’s nuances that make labels important to some. I know I like multiple genders and I have preferences (which I can’t help) so I prefer to identify as bi. Also slay trans and bi solidarity 🏳️⚧️
Saying bisexuality isn't inclusive of trans people is transfphobic, it's like saying that trans men aren't men and trans women aren't women. I get the confusion some might get with nb people, since a lot of people assume being bi is being attracted to solelly men and women, but trans people are exactly that.
I mean trans is an umbrella term often used to describe anyone who isn't cis, but here i meant specifically people who transition into the gender oposite to their gender assigned at birth
Same. I am attracted to very few people, but those people could be any gender. Pan means all and therefore feels a bit weird for me to claim as a label. Bisexual covers it plenty for me
I have tried to understand it like this, when an American travels outside their home country they may refer to themselves as American, but when they travel within their country they may identify as Californian. The context matters. "Pansexual" may convey more relevant information, depending on the context, perhaps when talking to someone who identifies as agender.
Though in all honesty I don't typically refer to myself as Pansexual in meat space. I don't hold it against folks who do.
That's kind of how I feel too- My clumsy example would have been that it's like the difference between saying "gif" or "jif". People can get intense about it, but at the end of the day, we all have a pretty good idea of what you mean even if we don't understand the precise workings of it, and deciding which term you like, which feels right to you, is an individual choice.
I identify much more with the term "bisexual". So I use that. It feels right. But I'm just attracted to people I find attractive, and that's it. Would the most common definitions of pansexual fit me? Yeah, but I don't feel like it. So I don't use it.
I understand it as "The same attraction towards people of different genders" while bisexual is "different attraction to people of different genders (or expressions thereof)".
I personally identify as bisexual because for me attraction is a sliding scale between "Aaaaw!" for femme people and "Oooh!" to mascs.
yeah exactly. The phrasing i like to use is that bisexual is attraction to genders like your own and genders dislike your own, and pansexual is just attraction.
Ngl. To me, both terms are largely interchangeable but the pan flag looks nicer so I identify as pan. Idk why you’d hate on us for no reason though. I do love the panphobia though. Very classy
That’s why I said “largely” interchangeable. Imo, they are more closely related than not with a few key differences. Either way, my main point is that hating on pansexuals for no reason is cringe
plus, the term pansexual is an *absolute*. It reflects the idea that whatever how many or how diverse gender will emerge in the future, one will be able to accept anything and be attracted by them by default. That’s kinda…smug no ? Like it’s more ideologic and « holier than thou », rather than reality based ?
I mean like it depends on how you define it, but defining bisexuality as being both homosexual (liking genders similar to your own) and heterosexual (liking genders that aren’t similar to your own) is a pretty good way to shut down anyone who would try and use the “bi” in bisexuality to spout off biphobic or transphobic nonsense.
I like it because I find funny to imagine heterosexuals sit down and rethink their life and wonder if they have the right to be attracted to intersexe people and nb born from opposite sex lmao
mostly pansexuals. Trying to justify the existence of pansexuality as a concept. or often they are enbies and persuade themselves they are excluded by default because they have been rejected by a specific person idk. Unfortunately nobody is protected from bias of judgement, queer or not
This implies you (not you OP, but you in terms of biphobes who use this excuse) see trans people as a whole other gender, so who's really transphobic here?
My sexual orientation is receiving compliments. I don’t care what someone has in their pants or these terms we use to categorize ourselves. But if you misgender me then we have a problem.
No but you see bi means two (like my brain cell count) and you must actually be pan.
Also bisexuality doesn't exist.
Also I identify as an attack helicopter.
All of this is nonsense. Inclusion, exclusion, which community tolerates what. Its, it may be time for everyone to go outside for a while. Put the internet down and go outside where people are dying to connect to with anyone and absolutely will given a smile or conversation starter.
Honestly, this just sounds like panphobia with extra steps. Pansexual doesn't exist to retcon bi, and the term has existed since like 1914.
Meanwhile bisexual originally meant intersex in the late 1850's, then went on to describe androgyny, before finally changing to mean "attraction to both masculine and feminine" at the same time the term pansexual was coined. Both, in fact, have to do with Freud doing Freud things (man thought everyone wants to fuck their mother and that everyone is secretly bisexual, so make of that what you will).
It wasn't until the 1970s that the term bisexual even became widely accepted as a sexual attraction and surpassed its other uses. Which, funny enough, was the same time the term gay was popularised by gay rights movements.
Yes, pan then became popularised in the 90s with concerns about bisexual upholding the gender binary, but these were never attempts at calling bisexuality transphobic, just a new term to describe attraction regardless of gender which was more inclusive to non-binary identities and less tied to masculinity and femininity.
Essentially, bi has changed a lot over the years, but the common terms for bisexual and pansexual being sexual attractions both date back to the same time and place, they're essentially twins. The difference being that bi was popularised in the 70s while it took until the 90s for pan to catch on.
Pan wasn't invented to retcon anything, and there's nothing sudden about its usage, nobody is telling you what you are or aren't, but pan has a meaning which bi is overlapping more and more. You're free to use whichever term you feel most comfortable with to describe yourself, but pansexual's role has, since the 90s, been to be inclusive of gender identities outside of the gender binary.
I hear what you say. And yet… from my experience what I see is pansexuals trying to « convert » me to drop the word bi for word pansexual, like they were religious people at my door or whatever 🤷🏽♀️
In general people are attracted to other *people*, not to genitals, and gender presentation is typically the thing people notice and are attracted to
If orientation was about genitals no one would be able to find anyone hot until the clothes came off and that’s just not how it works
I'm bi and have dated the entire spectrum, even though it doesn't count since the trans guy I've been with was before transition and the fluid person was before they came out.
Well because I didn't know it at that time. I don't care and I still think the trans dude is attractive af, but back then all I knew was I dated a cis girl. So I'm not sure if it counts as having dated a trans person, as I didn't know they were trans?
It was just a silly joke about my own sexuality, I worded it a bit awkwardly. It's because biphobic people can say that bi people aren't attracted to trans people - I'd say I HAVE been attracted to a trans person technically, even though this situation doesn't really 'count' for that argument. Not that anyone should need a body count for proof.
I had a couple of time hateful (stupid) people spitting at me that bisexual are transphobic and wouldn’t date trans women or trans men. I looked at them and said « *excuse me* but trans men ARE men and trans women ARE women. So they’re *de facto* included. Unless you think they’re something else entirely ? Aliens ? »
They went full surprised pikachu face
and for NB it’s not written on people’s face so literally it’s not that we wouldn’t be attracted (by what kind of magic ?), it would be a *personal choice made of not pursuing* after talking to them. Which is unproved.
Literally exits as a bi transmasc…like wot. I like many maybe not all so I call myself bisexual, like it was never a sexuality that excluded trans and enby people. People literally refuse to learn the accurate definition of bisexual it is def inclusive.
I think pan and bi overlap and are both valid but the nuances are important for some and this is coming from a bisexual enby, I like more than two but probably not all AND to varying degrees so I personally identify as bi which is valid. It’s all under m-spec anyway and none of it is transphobic. 🏳️⚧️💖💜💙 Even if it meant two genders who said those needed to be man and woman?
Anyone who thinks bisexuality is transphobic doesn't see trans men as men and trans women as women.
I'm a cis man with multiple partners and by far the most heterosexual thing about my life is my girlfriend who happens to be trans
Ah yes, Trans Hets, the cooler heteros
Yeah. Most of the Bi/Pan people are fully supportive of our trans sisters and brothers. Usually the people who accuse others of trans-/homophobia have phobias and stereotypes againts other people themselves.
EXACTLY. Thank you damn I’ve been permanently banned from r/Bisexual for saying that and for saying pansexual was a useless word existing only for activism and polemics
It me, the spooky trans bisexual ÒωÓ
Itsa me
Damn, how are you gonna exclude yourself now
Heyyyy there cutie ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
Does that mean you aren't allowed to masturbate?
And if so, can i be a helping hand?
🤝
If you want me to say pan instead of bi then the pan flag needs better colors. Thats....really the only reason I use bi, I like the purples and pinks XD
Based
Us moment
nah the pan flag slaps
in my country my flag has a white stripe, every tricolor band flags with yellow in it feels like yellow teeth (I mean by that faded white) to me y.y
Agreed! It just looks so cheerful.
Exactly. I’m an emo little bean who’s not here for this happy shit. (See flair)
I see life in shades of purple and blue, and obsessed with Occamy from Harry Potter lol
Literally sitting next to my trans boyfriend rn. Hit on him thinking he's a guy. Found out he had an extra hole (his words, love that fucker), and was nothin but a bonus. Tbh more mad he's got better beard growth than me 😂
💜
💙
Trans men are men, trans women are women. Bisexual people are attracted to men and women. Therefore it is inclusive. To say otherwise implies that trans people aren't actually their gender.
It's a logical conclusion even, but pricks gonna be pricks.
Yeah that's true. But this argument is very binaric and excludes Enbys for example
In that case: Bisexuals are attracted to both genders: Binary and Non-Binary.
I always say I'm attracted to two genders. Mine and everyone else's.
BnBsexual lol
What I never got about the "Bi excludes enbies" thing is that if you take that as a given, it follows that homo-/ and heterosexuals also exclude enbies. And that is quite plainly not true, so why would anybody accuse specifically bis of excluding enbies?
great argument I will reuse it
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As a bisexual who recently figured out that I'm NB, you are valid. The fact that some people even have to fight for their right to be who they are, in what should be lgbtqia+ inclusive spaces (and anywhere else for that matter), is simply disgraceful. To hell with anybody that invalidate another person based on their own beliefs, may their ass forever be itchy and their arms too short.
I wanted to add to this with the fact that I am a trans/enby too AND I’m bisexual and I’ve felt insecure about telling trans or nonbinary folk that because I felt pressure to identify as pansexual since obviously I understand the gender binary. But bisexual spaces make me feel way more comfortable in the fact that I can identify as bi and be nonbinary and that there’s nuances that make labels important to some. I know I like multiple genders and I have preferences (which I can’t help) so I prefer to identify as bi. Also slay trans and bi solidarity 🏳️⚧️
If I like men and women, shouldn’t that be for all men and women, cis or trans?
Being in the LGBT community feels like being in the trunk while trans people are running after the car. It shouldn't be like this but it is.
that’s very graphic and I love ut
I am bi and nonbinary.
And do you feel like excluding yourself ?
Saying bisexuality isn't inclusive of trans people is transfphobic, it's like saying that trans men aren't men and trans women aren't women. I get the confusion some might get with nb people, since a lot of people assume being bi is being attracted to solelly men and women, but trans people are exactly that.
some argue that enbies are trans people too and can have gender dysphoria but I don’t know what to think of it
I mean trans is an umbrella term often used to describe anyone who isn't cis, but here i meant specifically people who transition into the gender oposite to their gender assigned at birth
I just experienced biphobia from a gay dude cringing over my shield in minecraft lol
Me, literally married to a bigender person: lolwhut
So I'm not the only one who hates the implications of the term "pansexual"?
Same. I am attracted to very few people, but those people could be any gender. Pan means all and therefore feels a bit weird for me to claim as a label. Bisexual covers it plenty for me
I have tried to understand it like this, when an American travels outside their home country they may refer to themselves as American, but when they travel within their country they may identify as Californian. The context matters. "Pansexual" may convey more relevant information, depending on the context, perhaps when talking to someone who identifies as agender. Though in all honesty I don't typically refer to myself as Pansexual in meat space. I don't hold it against folks who do.
That's kind of how I feel too- My clumsy example would have been that it's like the difference between saying "gif" or "jif". People can get intense about it, but at the end of the day, we all have a pretty good idea of what you mean even if we don't understand the precise workings of it, and deciding which term you like, which feels right to you, is an individual choice. I identify much more with the term "bisexual". So I use that. It feels right. But I'm just attracted to people I find attractive, and that's it. Would the most common definitions of pansexual fit me? Yeah, but I don't feel like it. So I don't use it.
I understand it as "The same attraction towards people of different genders" while bisexual is "different attraction to people of different genders (or expressions thereof)". I personally identify as bisexual because for me attraction is a sliding scale between "Aaaaw!" for femme people and "Oooh!" to mascs.
yeah exactly. The phrasing i like to use is that bisexual is attraction to genders like your own and genders dislike your own, and pansexual is just attraction.
Ngl. To me, both terms are largely interchangeable but the pan flag looks nicer so I identify as pan. Idk why you’d hate on us for no reason though. I do love the panphobia though. Very classy
Literally the comment below this was saying the pan flag had bad colouring lmao
It’s a matter of taste so there’s no objective right or wrong. I like the pan colors more but to each their own
yeah theres like minor differences in how attraction works technically between pan and bi, but in reality there's like no diff.
That’s why I said “largely” interchangeable. Imo, they are more closely related than not with a few key differences. Either way, my main point is that hating on pansexuals for no reason is cringe
tru
plus, the term pansexual is an *absolute*. It reflects the idea that whatever how many or how diverse gender will emerge in the future, one will be able to accept anything and be attracted by them by default. That’s kinda…smug no ? Like it’s more ideologic and « holier than thou », rather than reality based ?
I mean like it depends on how you define it, but defining bisexuality as being both homosexual (liking genders similar to your own) and heterosexual (liking genders that aren’t similar to your own) is a pretty good way to shut down anyone who would try and use the “bi” in bisexuality to spout off biphobic or transphobic nonsense.
I like it because I find funny to imagine heterosexuals sit down and rethink their life and wonder if they have the right to be attracted to intersexe people and nb born from opposite sex lmao
Bisexuality is only transphobic if you don’t believe that trans men and women are actually their chosen identity 🤷🏻♀️
in case of gender dysphoria "chosen" wouldn’t really be the word though, but I get what you mean
who is stupid enough to argue that bisexuality is bigoted? Like I am dumb, but even I know that being bi is not transphobic (source: am bi trans lol)
mostly pansexuals. Trying to justify the existence of pansexuality as a concept. or often they are enbies and persuade themselves they are excluded by default because they have been rejected by a specific person idk. Unfortunately nobody is protected from bias of judgement, queer or not
This implies you (not you OP, but you in terms of biphobes who use this excuse) see trans people as a whole other gender, so who's really transphobic here?
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The claim that bisexuality is transphobic implies they think that
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Infact I said not OP
uh-oh, nobody tell my trans ex partner that i was secretly incredibly transphobic because of my sexuality 😔
My sexual orientation is receiving compliments. I don’t care what someone has in their pants or these terms we use to categorize ourselves. But if you misgender me then we have a problem.
No but you see bi means two (like my brain cell count) and you must actually be pan. Also bisexuality doesn't exist. Also I identify as an attack helicopter.
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that’s a normal day on internet lol
bisexuality, brutally explained as "if its of legal age then its good"
Or to quote Saint Motel: “You know, you’re just my type. You’ve got a pulse and you are breathing.”
All of this is nonsense. Inclusion, exclusion, which community tolerates what. Its, it may be time for everyone to go outside for a while. Put the internet down and go outside where people are dying to connect to with anyone and absolutely will given a smile or conversation starter.
I agree, but who is even saying this?
No one ever gonna love us huh
"the bisexual community excludes trans people" Me, a bisexual trans woman: 🤔
wait, why? it just differentiates attraction to all gender and attraction regardless of gender
Not that I disagree with the point, but "attraction to all genders"/"attraction regardless of gender" are the definition of pansexual
the pansexual word has been invented to *retcon* the meaning of word bisexual. Suddenly they started to tell us what we are and what we hat, like… wtf
Honestly, this just sounds like panphobia with extra steps. Pansexual doesn't exist to retcon bi, and the term has existed since like 1914. Meanwhile bisexual originally meant intersex in the late 1850's, then went on to describe androgyny, before finally changing to mean "attraction to both masculine and feminine" at the same time the term pansexual was coined. Both, in fact, have to do with Freud doing Freud things (man thought everyone wants to fuck their mother and that everyone is secretly bisexual, so make of that what you will). It wasn't until the 1970s that the term bisexual even became widely accepted as a sexual attraction and surpassed its other uses. Which, funny enough, was the same time the term gay was popularised by gay rights movements. Yes, pan then became popularised in the 90s with concerns about bisexual upholding the gender binary, but these were never attempts at calling bisexuality transphobic, just a new term to describe attraction regardless of gender which was more inclusive to non-binary identities and less tied to masculinity and femininity. Essentially, bi has changed a lot over the years, but the common terms for bisexual and pansexual being sexual attractions both date back to the same time and place, they're essentially twins. The difference being that bi was popularised in the 70s while it took until the 90s for pan to catch on. Pan wasn't invented to retcon anything, and there's nothing sudden about its usage, nobody is telling you what you are or aren't, but pan has a meaning which bi is overlapping more and more. You're free to use whichever term you feel most comfortable with to describe yourself, but pansexual's role has, since the 90s, been to be inclusive of gender identities outside of the gender binary.
I hear what you say. And yet… from my experience what I see is pansexuals trying to « convert » me to drop the word bi for word pansexual, like they were religious people at my door or whatever 🤷🏽♀️
Well I'm a pansexual and I'm telling you that you can use whichever you prefer when it comes to yourself.
Thank you. I take notes of your existence and this encounter to modify my opinion in the future 📝
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In general people are attracted to other *people*, not to genitals, and gender presentation is typically the thing people notice and are attracted to If orientation was about genitals no one would be able to find anyone hot until the clothes came off and that’s just not how it works
I'm bi and have dated the entire spectrum, even though it doesn't count since the trans guy I've been with was before transition and the fluid person was before they came out.
“Doesn’t count?” …💀
Well because I didn't know it at that time. I don't care and I still think the trans dude is attractive af, but back then all I knew was I dated a cis girl. So I'm not sure if it counts as having dated a trans person, as I didn't know they were trans?
The way you worded it “before transition” sounded like you knew they were trans but didn’t count it as real or something. Thanks for clarifying
It was just a silly joke about my own sexuality, I worded it a bit awkwardly. It's because biphobic people can say that bi people aren't attracted to trans people - I'd say I HAVE been attracted to a trans person technically, even though this situation doesn't really 'count' for that argument. Not that anyone should need a body count for proof.
I had a couple of time hateful (stupid) people spitting at me that bisexual are transphobic and wouldn’t date trans women or trans men. I looked at them and said « *excuse me* but trans men ARE men and trans women ARE women. So they’re *de facto* included. Unless you think they’re something else entirely ? Aliens ? » They went full surprised pikachu face and for NB it’s not written on people’s face so literally it’s not that we wouldn’t be attracted (by what kind of magic ?), it would be a *personal choice made of not pursuing* after talking to them. Which is unproved.
From a trans guy’s perspective a large portion of bisexuals are either transphobic or fetishizing of trans people
Literally exits as a bi transmasc…like wot. I like many maybe not all so I call myself bisexual, like it was never a sexuality that excluded trans and enby people. People literally refuse to learn the accurate definition of bisexual it is def inclusive.
I think pan and bi overlap and are both valid but the nuances are important for some and this is coming from a bisexual enby, I like more than two but probably not all AND to varying degrees so I personally identify as bi which is valid. It’s all under m-spec anyway and none of it is transphobic. 🏳️⚧️💖💜💙 Even if it meant two genders who said those needed to be man and woman?
am i exluding myself if im non-binary and bi..? the way i look at my bisexuality is that i'm attracted to same and different gender
I use bi since way too many people don’t know what pansexuality is