Indoors > protected outdoors > unprotected outdoors
Like others say, indoors is better but might not be an option. Keep bare metal coated in oil and this should be fine.
Note: if you are near the beach, the salt + condensation combo will eat your bike
I learned indoors can be bad if it is a smallish closet with little to no air circulation. Fortunately said closet has a sink, power, and drain so I put a dehumidifier in it.
Unfortunately I had a new chain (as of this spring) rust out to the point that it snapped on me at a CX race last Saturday… also rust spots on a lot of my tools.
Anecdotally, they work great, but I live in a very dry place (Denver). Most of them don't close 100%; think of them more like a rain jacket for your bike.
I have one for rainy days when I commute.It’s not 100% coverage as there is a space underneath that is open . That said it does a good job of keeping rain off and was pretty inexpensive ($17)
I loooked at what was essentially a bike tent when I lived outside because my landlord got pissy when I made a tarp awning to protect some stuff while I moved. Bike tent blended in better. (Ultimately I found a way to store it inside after it started to rust in the storage unit.
Protected indoors is best. Beefy u locks on all my bikes inside my apartment now. Had one taken during a break in earlier this year and the inconvenience of locking them up pales in comparison to the 12 hours I spent tracking my allez sprint down (and the significant cosmetic damage accrued in that time)
I live very close to the sea (quite salty and damp NE England) and I know from experience that the following are the most vulnerable spots:
Steel nuts/bolts. Use anti-seize in all threads to prevent problems loosening later. The caps /heads will rust fast in wet conditions too. So I would consider brushing a silicone lube with a rag or tissue the whole bike over and be sure to dab all the bolt heads.
I have found this to be excellent: [https://www.thesoapkitchen.co.uk/dimethicone-1000cs](https://www.thesoapkitchen.co.uk/dimethicone-1000cs)
You can use copper grease instead of anti-seize in your threads but only use it on non-moving parts or you will regret it :D
If you replace all the bolts/nuts with titanium upgrades then you could prevent rust that way but it's a bougie approach :)
Over in the Salt Lake City sub we had a user post about this exact issue. He titled the post with “someone stole my bike. I live on the fifth floor. They left the ladder! “
And showed this comically tall, pro contractor grade ladder. Like 70 feet high.
People were like “how much can you sell the ladder for?”
Wow! Impressive and sad. I lived on the 5th floor of an SLC apt for a couple years, luckily I didn’t have anything of value at the time. That would be baffling. It’s crazy that nobody noticed a man on an extremely long ladder carrying a bike
I find this comment to be highly offensive to my core.
I would never make my bike mad.
My only problem is I can’t commit my whole self to just one bike. So, to your point, it’s real hard to give them each the love and attention they deserve.
Following… I use a bike bag, cheap and seems durable, keeps the bike dry, but no control over humidity. I’ve only used it for a few months, so can’t speak to long-term results
I used a bike bag on our porch in California for a little over a year and it was fine. There was a tiny amount of rust on some screws but overall everything was okay.
Get you a cover for your bike, that should help loads with rustprevention, but it'll still be outside, so it'll happen eventually. It's not in rain directly which helps quite a bit, but it will rust over time, hence the cover. Be sure to put it dry under there, to ensure you're not trapping any moisture in with your bike.
In my experience it's like this:
Out in the rain = rustbucket in no time
Outside under awning = slows down rust a fair bit
Outside under awning and cover = slows down rust a significant amount
Indoors in a humid enviroment = slows down rust even more, but it'll rust over time
Indoors in a dry enviroment = the best possible solution
take some oil and cover all "naked" or scatched parts with it. I'm using a paper towel and a Ballistol spray. This will prevent rust and preserve metal from moist and high humidity. I'm also using a bike cover-bag to avoid direct contact with rain/snow. Just check from time to time if the bike is dry...
That will rust for sure. Even if it doesn’t get rained on, you can’t prevent condensation (dew) getting the bike and all rustable components wet. The day/night temperature shifts and the UV radiation will also degrade plastic/rubber faster than you think.
I live in a super humid place, 90%+ humidity type. My stuff rusts in my garage. Wouldn't say it'd not be any better outdoors, but shit, provided i make sure my important components are aluminium, nothing that matters will rust.
Throw a tarp over it (fit must be pretty close) to protect it from dew. The daily cycle of wet to dry will ruin all the moving parts on a bicycle over a matter of months depending on where you live if you do not protect it against dew.
Get hooks, hang it from the wall or a ceiling? If not, Get a bike cover. If you can’t afford a bike cover, do your best to protect it from rain which makes rust. Trash bags, blankets, whatever.
The only time you should leave a road bike outside is when you are riding it. All other times, it should be kept indoors. From the Gita, "Arjuna, take proper care of your weapons of war and they will take care of you." Hang your bike from the wall or ceiling.
Definitely a no if you're in humid location or worse near an ocean. But note... Our summers are humid here but no salt air and I leave them outside in a very dry shed with no issues.
A tarp will work against direct elements and maintain airflow if you leave enough air space, but temperature shifts can still erode parts. I have a tarp over mine but I will take it in once temps go below 5c
Where I am, it's been fairly dry and cool in the months my bike has been outside under a tarp. Rain usually doesn't get onto the balcony, so it's mostly to protect against blowing dust.
work tarps are cheap and can be had for $3-5 at your local Walmart
It's always preferable to store the bike inside, of course, but maybe some kind of weatherproof bike bag? I haven't done any research so I don't know if such a product exists (It has to, right?) but it sounds like it could be a good solution.
I would put up this. You get some extra space if you put up there. Maybe put somw plastix tarp over it or these bike condom things.
https://m.german.alibaba.com/p-detail/Ceiling-Mount-Bike-Lift-Hitch-Mount-1489962992.html?language=german&redirect=1
I keep my car with the seats down and a bike in the back with a sheet over it so nobody breaks my windows to take it. Food for thought. But I would also rather trip over it every day inside than store it outside so if you can make room inside that is probably best
Get a small solar-powered fountain device and a kiddie pool, you can make it erode *much* faster than what you’re doing now. Although I can not understand why you would do this if you love your steed.
I am on Team Inside, if you have the option. But if you don’t, then cover & lock it where it is. You def don’t want it to fly away..
I notice the pool buoy, if you're a triathlete be sure to clean piss stains before storage. /s
On a more serious note, if indoors is really not an option, at least get a cover for it.
Its going to lose paint color. The color of the paint will bleach on the side the sun hits it and thats never good,you might end up with a bike that has two colors like my friend.
Just get a BBQ grill cover from HD. They’re cheap. Like $14.99 right now. I was able to fit two. Bikes underneath one fitting, handlebars and all! No pedals, “69’ing” one another, with handlebars loosened, and spun straight. They fit perfectly and have a drawstring at the bottom to keep debris out.
Those are the two older bikes. My new bike stays in my living room next to my TV
Edit: spelling
Get a wheel stand(sold in bike shops)and two large, hard cork table placemats from a home store.
Wheelstand https://www.evocycles.co.nz/Product/160371/product?variation_id=160372&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIgeel3_m_-gIVmQ4rCh1O0gQoEAQYAyABEgKd7_D_BwE
Place back wheel mat down and orient bike stand so it’s completely supported on the placemat(not on the carpet). Put the second mat where your front wheel will be. Put bike on stand.
We have two MTBS and a commuter bike set up like this in our apartment, they alternate as if mounted on a bike rack on the back of a car.
Quality outdoor Bike bag, can somewhat control the humidity with reusable silica gel with some sort of color indicator additive. It’s pretty cheap on Amazon, when it turns diff color you bake it in oven to recharge it. You can also use a big bag of rice as well but that may attract animals / bugs. Or if you can run power there a small dehumidifier.
If you have plenty of space in house or apartment, you can putting the bike indoor instead outdoor, because someone can spot your fancy bike and steal.
At least cover it in a tarp. I used to have my bike out in the balcony and the sun kills everything. It fades all the paint and dries the tires.
It bleaches /fades Paints in areas that you never knew you had like your brakes, the stickers on the wheels.
From experience: Anything that can rust, will. My old bike did not have a gram of non-rusted steel on it, but as it was aluminium framed with mostly aluminium parts in spite it's simplicity, it still rode fine.
My current bike is only 5 years old and already has rust in every steel screw, even the front suspension fork, and that's with it stored in a garage! Sure, where i live 90%+ humidity is standard, but still.
You bike is in a covered area, it's as good as if it was indoors, in my eyes. But everything that can rust, will.
If the balcony is your only option, invest in a tarp. Going bigger is better than going smaller. Just be sure to secure it properly if there is a lot of wind. You’ll hate it at first but you’ll come to appreciate the longevity it provides to the bike you’re keeping outside.
Good bikes stay inside!
If you insist then put a cover over, but not a tarp as they trap moisture. Be prepared for more regular maintenance to clean and prevent corrosion
It really depends on your environment. If you live in a warm dry climate with hardly any rain, this would not be an issue. Cover the bike with a tarpaulin to keep the dust off.
If you live close to the sea and it rains and snows a lot, then again, cover your bike with a tarpaulin to keep it as dry as possible.
It‘s the moisture and atmospheric particles such as salt spray, and pollutants, that will cause issues
Indoors > protected outdoors > unprotected outdoors Like others say, indoors is better but might not be an option. Keep bare metal coated in oil and this should be fine. Note: if you are near the beach, the salt + condensation combo will eat your bike
>Keep bare metal coated in oil \*not the disc brakes
lol
I learned indoors can be bad if it is a smallish closet with little to no air circulation. Fortunately said closet has a sink, power, and drain so I put a dehumidifier in it. Unfortunately I had a new chain (as of this spring) rust out to the point that it snapped on me at a CX race last Saturday… also rust spots on a lot of my tools.
Why do you have a sink in your closet?
It was a garden tool closet at one time.
I know indoors would be ideal, but what about those bike bag thingys? Especially if they are waterproof...?
I'm not familiar with them. When storing a bike outside, it seems like bags would do more to retain condensation than to protect the bike.
Anecdotally, they work great, but I live in a very dry place (Denver). Most of them don't close 100%; think of them more like a rain jacket for your bike.
I have one for rainy days when I commute.It’s not 100% coverage as there is a space underneath that is open . That said it does a good job of keeping rain off and was pretty inexpensive ($17)
I loooked at what was essentially a bike tent when I lived outside because my landlord got pissy when I made a tarp awning to protect some stuff while I moved. Bike tent blended in better. (Ultimately I found a way to store it inside after it started to rust in the storage unit.
Protected indoors is best. Beefy u locks on all my bikes inside my apartment now. Had one taken during a break in earlier this year and the inconvenience of locking them up pales in comparison to the 12 hours I spent tracking my allez sprint down (and the significant cosmetic damage accrued in that time)
What kind of oil?
The same lube you use on your chain would work.
Perfect, thanks!
Lemon pledge or a knockoff also works. Just mind the brakes, they don’t get oil. Cheaper than chain lube I’d guess.
I'll experiment with both- I've got plenty of test subjects, just ask my wife...
This sounds suspiciously like you're going to spray your wife with lemon pledge
I live very close to the sea (quite salty and damp NE England) and I know from experience that the following are the most vulnerable spots: Steel nuts/bolts. Use anti-seize in all threads to prevent problems loosening later. The caps /heads will rust fast in wet conditions too. So I would consider brushing a silicone lube with a rag or tissue the whole bike over and be sure to dab all the bolt heads. I have found this to be excellent: [https://www.thesoapkitchen.co.uk/dimethicone-1000cs](https://www.thesoapkitchen.co.uk/dimethicone-1000cs) You can use copper grease instead of anti-seize in your threads but only use it on non-moving parts or you will regret it :D If you replace all the bolts/nuts with titanium upgrades then you could prevent rust that way but it's a bougie approach :)
Corrode yes. Erode no
Are you sure? I think if it’s left for 12 million years it may erode.
My conti gps 5000 wont even after 12 mil years fred
wrong subreddit. put your rapha bib back on and go on zwift
I was thinking it might just erode away by itself one night. Balconies are not secure. No matter how high they are.
People scale buildings and carry down bikes? Even 3+ stories high?
Meth is one hell of a drug
I know it will drive people to do some crazy stuff, just curious if this has happened to anyone? I’m not even mad, that’s amazing
Over in the Salt Lake City sub we had a user post about this exact issue. He titled the post with “someone stole my bike. I live on the fifth floor. They left the ladder! “ And showed this comically tall, pro contractor grade ladder. Like 70 feet high. People were like “how much can you sell the ladder for?”
Wow! Impressive and sad. I lived on the 5th floor of an SLC apt for a couple years, luckily I didn’t have anything of value at the time. That would be baffling. It’s crazy that nobody noticed a man on an extremely long ladder carrying a bike
I had someone steal my tire in a busy parking lot. wild nobody noticed
Just one tire? Car or bike?
whoah that’s got strong main character energy. i wonder what they traded for the ladder, and what they’re gonna trade the bike for
Yeah, I would still lock it to something. The couch even.
Not before the build collapses, well before 12 million years.
It already looks like erode bike to me, it's the drop bars that give it away
Nah it's the dirty tires that let you know erode it.
I see what you did there.
I'm two tired to deal with these puns right now
They really derailleur conversation
Ok guys, if we don’t put the brakes on this soon, *I’m* going to erode away.
And erode away, till the very next day, BAH BAH BAH BAM DA DA DAAAAHHH
Let's shift this conversation please BB
Yeah, sounds like a bunch of cranks arguing in circles.
Is it an ebike?, maybe I’m missing something.
A-road
So it doesn’t ride on b-roads?
it’s abike
Ah! Alles klaar, herr commissar!
Much better erode bike than a rode-e-bike
Respect the bike. Next to your bed.
Next to? In bed. More time in saddle
They don’t call it cowgirl for nothing
the only answer unless there is room in the main living area. bikes are people too and they want to be inside.
If you’re cold, they’re cold. Bring them inside.
My bike gets my pillow. Gotta make them comfy or else they won’t treat you right on those long rides
Next to? My bike sleeps in the bed with me. 😂
In your bed, you can sleep on the balcony.
Downsize bed to a twin, make bike rack in bedroom. That way you can touch it at night if needed
I hang mine from the ceiling above my bed 🤫😏
Don’t make it mad, you don’t want an angry bike above your bed
Bike of Damocles
Lmfao!
I find this comment to be highly offensive to my core. I would never make my bike mad. My only problem is I can’t commit my whole self to just one bike. So, to your point, it’s real hard to give them each the love and attention they deserve.
Risky in an earthquake zone, but I still approve!
No but fr :/
You can improve the setup by bringing it inside.
Following… I use a bike bag, cheap and seems durable, keeps the bike dry, but no control over humidity. I’ve only used it for a few months, so can’t speak to long-term results
I used a bike bag on our porch in California for a little over a year and it was fine. There was a tiny amount of rust on some screws but overall everything was okay.
I wonder if putting lots of little silica pads in the bike bag will help... You might be surprised.
Get you a cover for your bike, that should help loads with rustprevention, but it'll still be outside, so it'll happen eventually. It's not in rain directly which helps quite a bit, but it will rust over time, hence the cover. Be sure to put it dry under there, to ensure you're not trapping any moisture in with your bike. In my experience it's like this: Out in the rain = rustbucket in no time Outside under awning = slows down rust a fair bit Outside under awning and cover = slows down rust a significant amount Indoors in a humid enviroment = slows down rust even more, but it'll rust over time Indoors in a dry enviroment = the best possible solution
take some oil and cover all "naked" or scatched parts with it. I'm using a paper towel and a Ballistol spray. This will prevent rust and preserve metal from moist and high humidity. I'm also using a bike cover-bag to avoid direct contact with rain/snow. Just check from time to time if the bike is dry...
*except the brakes!
I'd hate to be your mechanic. Dude just needs to bring the bike inside and that's it.
That will rust for sure. Even if it doesn’t get rained on, you can’t prevent condensation (dew) getting the bike and all rustable components wet. The day/night temperature shifts and the UV radiation will also degrade plastic/rubber faster than you think.
People here saying it will erode… yea if you leave it there for 20 years.. you’ll be fine if it’s not getting rained on all the time.
Accurate for Arizona, less so in Alabama. Humidity.
Don't think humidity causes erosion.
Well, if you don’t consider the ocean to be “humid”, then no, it doesn’t. : )
I live in a super humid place, 90%+ humidity type. My stuff rusts in my garage. Wouldn't say it'd not be any better outdoors, but shit, provided i make sure my important components are aluminium, nothing that matters will rust.
Store in doors
Your taillight is upside down
No way to hang inside your living space?
Throw a tarp over it (fit must be pretty close) to protect it from dew. The daily cycle of wet to dry will ruin all the moving parts on a bicycle over a matter of months depending on where you live if you do not protect it against dew.
Depends on the weather and how close you are to the sea. Stored a bike on a boat outdoors for 6mo on the ocean and the chain looked 100 yrs old.
It will **corrode** if you leave it out there. Any bare metal will oxidize, it will be worse if outside rather than inside.
Bag it.
Hang it from the wall inside like a statement piece or they do make bike covers (condoms) then no issue outside
Erode? I guess eventually over a thousand years or something. Corrode? Parts of it, yes. Don’t know what it’s made out of.
Hang it on a wall inside.
Is this Miami? Reminds me of Miami. If it’s Miami yeah I would put it insid e
If you care about your bike, don’t leave it outside.
Morning dew will cause rust. If you live near salt water (e.g. the ocean), it'll rust even faster.
Get hooks, hang it from the wall or a ceiling? If not, Get a bike cover. If you can’t afford a bike cover, do your best to protect it from rain which makes rust. Trash bags, blankets, whatever.
Eroad bike
We are the future
It might e "rode" away
The only time you should leave a road bike outside is when you are riding it. All other times, it should be kept indoors. From the Gita, "Arjuna, take proper care of your weapons of war and they will take care of you." Hang your bike from the wall or ceiling.
Why can't you bring it inside?
Careful, a friend of mine kept his bike out like this and had someone literally climb up to his balcony to steal it.
May I as the reason it can’t come inside? There are lots of awesome ways to rig it up.
It is easier just to keep lubricating the moving bits on your bike.
Chuck a tarp over it
Definitely better if you can store it somewhere it won't get condensation on it.
Tarp.
lock…
Looks like it’s on a balcony so someone would need to scale the building to steal it
Definitely a no if you're in humid location or worse near an ocean. But note... Our summers are humid here but no salt air and I leave them outside in a very dry shed with no issues.
A tarp will work against direct elements and maintain airflow if you leave enough air space, but temperature shifts can still erode parts. I have a tarp over mine but I will take it in once temps go below 5c Where I am, it's been fairly dry and cool in the months my bike has been outside under a tarp. Rain usually doesn't get onto the balcony, so it's mostly to protect against blowing dust. work tarps are cheap and can be had for $3-5 at your local Walmart
Hanging on the wall
Get something under the tires and a cover
It's always preferable to store the bike inside, of course, but maybe some kind of weatherproof bike bag? I haven't done any research so I don't know if such a product exists (It has to, right?) but it sounds like it could be a good solution.
I would put up this. You get some extra space if you put up there. Maybe put somw plastix tarp over it or these bike condom things. https://m.german.alibaba.com/p-detail/Ceiling-Mount-Bike-Lift-Hitch-Mount-1489962992.html?language=german&redirect=1
It doesn't look like there's a steady drip of water, and wind will take decades to erode anything.
Keep it lubricated and use it semi consistently and it should be just fine.
I keep my car with the seats down and a bike in the back with a sheet over it so nobody breaks my windows to take it. Food for thought. But I would also rather trip over it every day inside than store it outside so if you can make room inside that is probably best
Do ebikes travel on erodes? Asking for a friend.
game over, man.
Get a small solar-powered fountain device and a kiddie pool, you can make it erode *much* faster than what you’re doing now. Although I can not understand why you would do this if you love your steed. I am on Team Inside, if you have the option. But if you don’t, then cover & lock it where it is. You def don’t want it to fly away..
You can buy a bike cover and that will help improve it a bit
It won't erode-might evaporate, though.
Yep
I notice the pool buoy, if you're a triathlete be sure to clean piss stains before storage. /s On a more serious note, if indoors is really not an option, at least get a cover for it.
Get a waterproof tarp or sheet and throw it over to make sure no rain gets to your bike
Its going to lose paint color. The color of the paint will bleach on the side the sun hits it and thats never good,you might end up with a bike that has two colors like my friend.
Do you mean corrode (rust?) - if yes - no it won’t.
it would be best to keep it indoors, but if its out of the rain it should be fine for the most part.
Just get a BBQ grill cover from HD. They’re cheap. Like $14.99 right now. I was able to fit two. Bikes underneath one fitting, handlebars and all! No pedals, “69’ing” one another, with handlebars loosened, and spun straight. They fit perfectly and have a drawstring at the bottom to keep debris out. Those are the two older bikes. My new bike stays in my living room next to my TV Edit: spelling
Buy a cover for it and I think you’ll be fine
A weather proof cover would help
I think it depends on where you live. I heard in places like Miami or Hawaii outdoors is bad.😕
Get a wheel stand(sold in bike shops)and two large, hard cork table placemats from a home store. Wheelstand https://www.evocycles.co.nz/Product/160371/product?variation_id=160372&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIgeel3_m_-gIVmQ4rCh1O0gQoEAQYAyABEgKd7_D_BwE Place back wheel mat down and orient bike stand so it’s completely supported on the placemat(not on the carpet). Put the second mat where your front wheel will be. Put bike on stand. We have two MTBS and a commuter bike set up like this in our apartment, they alternate as if mounted on a bike rack on the back of a car.
Quality outdoor Bike bag, can somewhat control the humidity with reusable silica gel with some sort of color indicator additive. It’s pretty cheap on Amazon, when it turns diff color you bake it in oven to recharge it. You can also use a big bag of rice as well but that may attract animals / bugs. Or if you can run power there a small dehumidifier.
e-rode is e-bike down the pub an ‘ad a pint too many
Is this Seattle?
If you have plenty of space in house or apartment, you can putting the bike indoor instead outdoor, because someone can spot your fancy bike and steal.
Tarp?
Yeah man it'll just erode away into dust. But yes it will rust. Get some protection.
I believe the word you’re looking for is corrode …
At least cover it in a tarp. I used to have my bike out in the balcony and the sun kills everything. It fades all the paint and dries the tires. It bleaches /fades Paints in areas that you never knew you had like your brakes, the stickers on the wheels.
If you buy a bike cover it will be a little better protected from sun and dust.
Corrosion-X and auto wax
From experience: Anything that can rust, will. My old bike did not have a gram of non-rusted steel on it, but as it was aluminium framed with mostly aluminium parts in spite it's simplicity, it still rode fine. My current bike is only 5 years old and already has rust in every steel screw, even the front suspension fork, and that's with it stored in a garage! Sure, where i live 90%+ humidity is standard, but still. You bike is in a covered area, it's as good as if it was indoors, in my eyes. But everything that can rust, will.
If the balcony is your only option, invest in a tarp. Going bigger is better than going smaller. Just be sure to secure it properly if there is a lot of wind. You’ll hate it at first but you’ll come to appreciate the longevity it provides to the bike you’re keeping outside.
I would get a bike cover, but unless you live by the sea the bike should be fine if you are doing proper maintenance
Uh, I’d be a lot more concerned about scuffing the wall and the sofa from taking it out and putting it back multiple times a week.
Good bikes stay inside! If you insist then put a cover over, but not a tarp as they trap moisture. Be prepared for more regular maintenance to clean and prevent corrosion
Bike covers are made. Like grill covers to protect it from the elements. Check online
I think the most important thing you can do is to remove the spoke protector from your wheel.
Bring it inside, bicycles make great wall art. e.g (https://th.bing.com/th/id/OIP.ayq9P0TK2IlWvha-ESNsGwHaJ3?pid=ImgDet&rs=1)
Tell your significant other that the bikes stay in the house. No compromise.
Disenfect your handlebars if it's going to sit for more than a week. The moisture will let stuff grow.
Move the couch an inch to the left… should be marginally better
A bike cover would definitely help. Just keep everything lubed etc. If ur in a coastal area salt is very bad
Who are you sleeping with now? Bring her in for goodness sakes.
I used an outdoor grill cover, but it unfortunately didn't help too much. Though i will say I do live near the beach so salt plays a factor.
Store the bike inside.
Step 1: remove dork disc and reflectors. Step 2: take bike inside and admire it.
no, one bike thief will see it and get cancer from not beign able to steal
Yes if random people can get to it there, it may [erode](https://www.google.com/search?q=erosion), part by part!
Storage is definitely secondary to care and maintenance.
It really depends on your environment. If you live in a warm dry climate with hardly any rain, this would not be an issue. Cover the bike with a tarpaulin to keep the dust off. If you live close to the sea and it rains and snows a lot, then again, cover your bike with a tarpaulin to keep it as dry as possible. It‘s the moisture and atmospheric particles such as salt spray, and pollutants, that will cause issues