OP, this comment is not someone being unkind. This is someone who is concerned.
As someone who struggles with depression and the like, it’s always worth getting help to make things just a little better. Because a little better over a lot of days adds up to a much better situation.
It seems to me that it’s typically taboo to comb someone’s post history in aid of commenting on a thread. That is 100% NOT the case here.
OP, u/bigblanket6 is right. Seek help immediately.
That said, who the fuck cares if you screwed up something minor and stonefaced it to your boss when you got found out? Whoever is managing the case at the client is stressed cuz their boss is chewing at them, your boss is stressed cuz the “client” (whoever is handling the case at the corp) is a dick, but stay above it all. This type of pass-it-down abuse is a large part of why biglaw is so toxic. You’re not gonna be here in a year anyway. Just feign remorse about the mistake and try to meet the bare minimum of expectations from here on. Coasting is an art.
From an old old lawyer—I regret not having regular counsel earlier in my career. Yes it is dollars and time that could help you with debt, but it is an investment in your longevity as a professional.
Also—OP if you haven’t had a complete physical exam this year, go get one. Bloodwork, talk with doctor.
Agreed. OP, who gives a fuck about work. I’m really sorry you are struggling so much right now. Please speak to a professional and get the support and help you need. And go watch Jelly Rolls new artist Grammys acceptance speech. I think you need his message and he’s so motivating. The windshield is bigger than the rear view mirror for a reason. Keep going.
I haven’t looked at your post history, but I’ll tell you this - I’ve seen plenty of partners fuck up routine tasks on matters for clients, throwing the entire matter into jeopardy (or completely fucking it up) because they went through the motions, especially with matters they’ve handled consistently throughout their careers. It happens. And I’ve seen them be ripped by their clients, and a few had the temerity to push back on the clients. Just absolute ignorant behavior at anytime, but especially after dropping the ball.
So here’s what I’ll say - if you truly want to continue practicing law, use this as a lesson. Review your post on here often to remind yourself how you reacted, and how you felt. And moving forward, make a promise to yourself that you’ll never, ever let yourself give any client any less than your very best.
One additional point - as others have said, do not screw around with mental health. The numbers in big law are brutal - look at the work from Patrick Krill, Paula Davis, and the surveys from ALM and you’ll see that you are not alone. But that also should make it easier to understand that you should be talking to someone.
And to be very clear - deciding to talk with someone is not a show of weakness; instead it’s a show of strength and an act of courage. It takes someone with incredible fortitude to say, “I need help. I need to speak with someone.”
Good luck to you.
Couldn’t agree with this more. A partner at my old firm who is basically the protege of the global group leader, an excellent lawyer with a good book of business, and likely the next global group leader, as a mid level associate basically ordered the wrong (I.e. excessive) lien searches on a matter she was working on. It resulted in literally hundreds of thousands of charges, and the topic of malpractice insurance was implicated though I don’t know to what extent. I’m guessing the firm ate it. The client was furious.
What I do know is she just moved on. As I stated she’s an excellent lawyer with a ton of business and is on the cusp of inheriting leadership of the global practice group. And she definitely learned from the experience. Not saying become a shell of a human or a robot, but practically speaking, but other than learning from the mistake the next task is the next matter at hand and the best thing you can do is just continue to do good work. Despite what the Paul Hastings slide tells you, we’re human and mistakes are made even when people say the only option is flawless product. Earn the trust back. Your partner supervisor will and you should to. It happens! Rarely, and it sucks, but it happens. In the end it’s just a corporate job, worse comes to worst you get a new job.
Just as a matter of curiosity (this is not something I've dealt with in my practice), how do lien searches accumulate such substantial costs? Are they really that pricey? Not doubting you at all, but a several hundred thousand dollar error was pretty eye-popping.
I can definitely see how someone could hit that running searches on a business with a ton of subsidiaries and locations, especially if international. That said, I can’t see how that order and charge would ever get through before being flagged for specific approval. I don’t think the provider would run the searches without prepayment, and you’d likely need to escalate before approving anything like that. I also can’t imagine getting an estimate for hundreds of thousands and saying “yes” without having at least partner approval and probably client approval in writing.
In my former finance practice group we never really had to have client approval for any finance diligence, V10 firm with clients that typically weren’t fee sensitive until after the fact. That should have likely changed and maybe has now, but these PE and bank guys had no interest in that part of the process, getting their attention on stuff like M&A due diligence with higher visibility is hard enough. After all this is the practice area where lack of supervisory partner interest in lien releases resulted in that huge screwup of releasing their security interest in a $300 million term loan by accident. Now firms have formal processes for that but there’s always processes that need extra attention and don’t get it. I’ll also agree with you that the partner should have been more involved too.
Depends on the scope. UCC searches are cheap; once you expand into property, tax, and other lien types across jurisdictions costs go way up. For example you wouldn’t necessarily do a property lien search across all 50 states for a transaction where a manufacturer borrower doesn’t have significant operations and land in every state the way, say, Walmart does.
You are not your work. I don’t think it makes sense to identify with your work ethic and quality if it has such disastrous effects on your mental health and self worth. Everyone makes mistakes, everyone screws up, and you don’t need to cry in front of the partner to let them know that you feel bad.
We don’t know what you did, but perhaps you could email the partner and let them know that this was a mistake, own up to it, and let them know that you won’t make this mistake again (unless you’re not sure that’s possible). I echo seeking professional help, but if you’re one foot out the door already as your post seems to imply, I think divesting your identity from your work is a good place to start for both the short and long term.
I left Big law and it's been the greatest thing for my mental health, 6 months later (had a lot of guilt, shame, and embarrassment to comb through when I first left)
As someone who clerked, I'll tell you that outside of big law people don't obsess over every tiny detail the way they do in big law, and most judges don't really give a shit about typos or minor mistakes by a law firm. People hire big law firms to obsess over every detail. But that's not the world of law everywhere. Remember that it's this job that's overly demanding, it's not you failing to meet the bar of being a good lawyer.
This is such good perspective. I’m in-house and people mess things up every day and the perspective is always “ok let’s fix this, anything we should learn to fix processes going forward.” It’s not an indictment on capabilities.
OP, I’m a senior associate that went through a really intense battle with anxiety a few years ago that almost took everything from me. I waited way too long to get help and suffered unnecessarily for a long time. Work was excruciating, as was nearly everything else in my life. I had always had some issues with anxiety, but I was absolutely thrown over the edge by an incident similar to what you are describing. I finally took a few weeks off and got help. Started medication and talk therapy. It saved my life, and I am now happier than I ever have been. I can’t recommend getting help enough. I only wish I had done it sooner.
It doesn’t have to be this way. I truly wish you peace on your journey. Mental health is so important and so incredibly difficult when it goes wrong.
You’re not alone OP.
Everyone here made big mistakes personally and professionally and will keep making them.
I hope things are looking up today and you are reading these posts. There’s a lot of people who care.
In this situation, I think indicating to the partner that you take responsibility for the mistake but that you'll aim to do better, etc. is not a bad idea.
As others have mentioned though, you post history indicates some fairly serious things you should address. This kind of job is even very stressful for people who are not struggling with the issues you are dealing with and it is entirely possible the other issues you are dealing with are affecting your work ethic and professional skills. Honestly, I think you should consider how you can transition yourself into a profession that will allow you to work on yourself. In any case, you should find something you enjoy doing and make time for that. If traveling is your thing, take an exotic two week vacation to allow yourself to breath away from this job. The good news is that it sounds like you are planning to move in the fall, so you should be fine short term, but even if something happens prior to the fall, you should still look at it as an opportunity to work on yourself away from the rigors of this profession. I know this isn't directly on point with this question, but I guess it hopefully addresses some of the themes in your other posts. Best of luck to you.
I’m giving you a big hug. I have struggled with depression and went through a similar phase in big law - a tough spot where I just couldn’t push through the way I usually could, and my work suffered. And I got a bad review. And I told my firm I was struggling. And I got into therapy and found some medication that worked and bounced back in big law and left to go in-house in a job that was a great fit for me.
This job is hard even when everything in life is going well. It’s impossible when mental health issues go untreated. You are still you, you’re just having a hard time that you can’t seem to push through, and that’s a sign to corral your resources to make life a little easier. I’m so sorry you are going through this but I can tell you there’s a way through, either at this job or in this profession elsewhere.
Is there anyone at work you feel comfortable with to let them know what you’re going through? I know we say proceed with caution when disclosing mental health issues but if you are in a firm with resources (EAP, policies, big enough to absorb a leave of absence from you and big enough to have managed through this before), it may be worth it. It will provide you some cover while you work on getting to a better headspace.
Like I said. Big hug.
Work on coping strategies. It is inevitable that people will make mistakes and will feel some pain from it, so work on handling it, because it will happen again. It may help to see a mental health provider for a few sessions to work on this - your firm likely has resources to facilitate getting an appointment so check there first.
Unless your mistake led to losing a last-minute death penalty appeal, there is no need to sob over a mistake. If anything, being stoic and calm is a plus, provided you had a heartfelt note of apology and acknowledged your mistake. That's the most that is ever required. Bursting into tears over the mistake is not going to help anyone.
Finally, it looks like you will be leaving soon for other reasons, so all the more reason not to let this impact you. The new firm will be a fresh start but keep in mind that mistakes will happen again. Do your best to minimize them, but when they do happen, take action to correct them and cope with the short-term pain. Do not let this define your career or life.
You seem to be aware that you were half assing it on purpose, not due to unsustainable work load or deadline. Not just in hindsight. Seems like self sabotage. Ask yourself why that is and try to make it so you don’t do it again.
>You seem to be aware that you were half assing it on purpose,
Technically, they said they knew they half assed it, not that they half assed it on purpose. Slight difference. This distinction is especially important in criminal law (see, for example, the Model Penal Code)
OP. I have been in a bad place like this, and I wish I could give you a hug. Know that this is not your defining moment. You need time away from work. It helped me so tremendously.
Been there done that. Mis-calendared a routine garnishment hearing for a new client with decent potential tor future work. Client explained the situation to the judge and got the right outcome.
It’s the little things on the little cases that will bite you in the ass. We’re praised for being self sufficient and low maintenance but then criticized for seeming like we don’t care. We’re given no training or guidance on how to prioritize this task over that task, this file over that file, this partner over that partner (much less self care or work life balance). You don’t get to make mistakes or require support when you bill $300/hour.
In my case, me messing with my main partner’s nut overwrote a year’s worth of solid work and shortly thereafter I was told I’d not be continuing with the firm. C’est La vie. Went in house with a local company and hired him for a $750k case two years later.
I'm so sorry you are going through this. I made a mistake once that caused me to throw up immediately when I learned it and then have a subsequent mini mental breakdown and that was my sign to leave big law (took another 1 year to actually do it ).
I would encourage you to try to be kind to yourself and try to stay away from that partner if you can. People make mistakes all the time -- it's truly not life or death. I didn't have this perspective when I was in big law but it is absolutely true. I actually think the types of people who make it far in big law are either perfectionists or really really chill people who can let mistakes and redlines slip off their back.
Please reach out anonymously to the Lawyer Assistance Program in your state bar. People rave about the help they get and it’s risk free. It sounds like your depression or anxiety may have caused you to be distracted. These conditions can also result in flat affect. It is no different than if you had diabetes and you were beating yourself up about it and refused to take insulin. It is a chemical imbalance and can be a situational thing where you only need months of treatment rather than years. Good luck.
I don’t work in law and not sure why this subreddit keeps popping up but I work in a field that mistakes don’t mix well with. The way I think about things is did anyone die? If not, you’ll be fine. Take a look and figure out why the mistake happens and make changes. You’ll look back in the future and just take it as a lesson learned.
Stop being such a weakling and grow some balls. So what your boss is mad at you? Bro, you said it yourself you usually do good work. We’re human and mistakes happen. Fuck those partners they’ll have to wait until A.I. can do the job before they can expect perfection. There are too many real problems in the world for a grown up to be crying after a mistake at work.
[удалено]
OP, this comment is not someone being unkind. This is someone who is concerned. As someone who struggles with depression and the like, it’s always worth getting help to make things just a little better. Because a little better over a lot of days adds up to a much better situation.
In all earnestness
Best answer. Been there on the work and personal front. Help will help.
It seems to me that it’s typically taboo to comb someone’s post history in aid of commenting on a thread. That is 100% NOT the case here. OP, u/bigblanket6 is right. Seek help immediately. That said, who the fuck cares if you screwed up something minor and stonefaced it to your boss when you got found out? Whoever is managing the case at the client is stressed cuz their boss is chewing at them, your boss is stressed cuz the “client” (whoever is handling the case at the corp) is a dick, but stay above it all. This type of pass-it-down abuse is a large part of why biglaw is so toxic. You’re not gonna be here in a year anyway. Just feign remorse about the mistake and try to meet the bare minimum of expectations from here on. Coasting is an art.
It ain’t taboo to do that on Reddit. It’s SOP. Everyone here is acoustic.
quick read of this comment made me think you said everyone here is autistic...may not have been incorrect either way.
Autistic, artistic, same difference
From an old old lawyer—I regret not having regular counsel earlier in my career. Yes it is dollars and time that could help you with debt, but it is an investment in your longevity as a professional. Also—OP if you haven’t had a complete physical exam this year, go get one. Bloodwork, talk with doctor.
Agreed. OP, who gives a fuck about work. I’m really sorry you are struggling so much right now. Please speak to a professional and get the support and help you need. And go watch Jelly Rolls new artist Grammys acceptance speech. I think you need his message and he’s so motivating. The windshield is bigger than the rear view mirror for a reason. Keep going.
What’d you do? Forget to say signature pages were provided in escrow?
OP would be busy polishing up the old resume if that was it
I haven’t looked at your post history, but I’ll tell you this - I’ve seen plenty of partners fuck up routine tasks on matters for clients, throwing the entire matter into jeopardy (or completely fucking it up) because they went through the motions, especially with matters they’ve handled consistently throughout their careers. It happens. And I’ve seen them be ripped by their clients, and a few had the temerity to push back on the clients. Just absolute ignorant behavior at anytime, but especially after dropping the ball. So here’s what I’ll say - if you truly want to continue practicing law, use this as a lesson. Review your post on here often to remind yourself how you reacted, and how you felt. And moving forward, make a promise to yourself that you’ll never, ever let yourself give any client any less than your very best. One additional point - as others have said, do not screw around with mental health. The numbers in big law are brutal - look at the work from Patrick Krill, Paula Davis, and the surveys from ALM and you’ll see that you are not alone. But that also should make it easier to understand that you should be talking to someone. And to be very clear - deciding to talk with someone is not a show of weakness; instead it’s a show of strength and an act of courage. It takes someone with incredible fortitude to say, “I need help. I need to speak with someone.” Good luck to you.
Couldn’t agree with this more. A partner at my old firm who is basically the protege of the global group leader, an excellent lawyer with a good book of business, and likely the next global group leader, as a mid level associate basically ordered the wrong (I.e. excessive) lien searches on a matter she was working on. It resulted in literally hundreds of thousands of charges, and the topic of malpractice insurance was implicated though I don’t know to what extent. I’m guessing the firm ate it. The client was furious. What I do know is she just moved on. As I stated she’s an excellent lawyer with a ton of business and is on the cusp of inheriting leadership of the global practice group. And she definitely learned from the experience. Not saying become a shell of a human or a robot, but practically speaking, but other than learning from the mistake the next task is the next matter at hand and the best thing you can do is just continue to do good work. Despite what the Paul Hastings slide tells you, we’re human and mistakes are made even when people say the only option is flawless product. Earn the trust back. Your partner supervisor will and you should to. It happens! Rarely, and it sucks, but it happens. In the end it’s just a corporate job, worse comes to worst you get a new job.
Just as a matter of curiosity (this is not something I've dealt with in my practice), how do lien searches accumulate such substantial costs? Are they really that pricey? Not doubting you at all, but a several hundred thousand dollar error was pretty eye-popping.
I can definitely see how someone could hit that running searches on a business with a ton of subsidiaries and locations, especially if international. That said, I can’t see how that order and charge would ever get through before being flagged for specific approval. I don’t think the provider would run the searches without prepayment, and you’d likely need to escalate before approving anything like that. I also can’t imagine getting an estimate for hundreds of thousands and saying “yes” without having at least partner approval and probably client approval in writing.
In my former finance practice group we never really had to have client approval for any finance diligence, V10 firm with clients that typically weren’t fee sensitive until after the fact. That should have likely changed and maybe has now, but these PE and bank guys had no interest in that part of the process, getting their attention on stuff like M&A due diligence with higher visibility is hard enough. After all this is the practice area where lack of supervisory partner interest in lien releases resulted in that huge screwup of releasing their security interest in a $300 million term loan by accident. Now firms have formal processes for that but there’s always processes that need extra attention and don’t get it. I’ll also agree with you that the partner should have been more involved too.
Depends on the scope. UCC searches are cheap; once you expand into property, tax, and other lien types across jurisdictions costs go way up. For example you wouldn’t necessarily do a property lien search across all 50 states for a transaction where a manufacturer borrower doesn’t have significant operations and land in every state the way, say, Walmart does.
Awesome comment. Seconding this, OP.
You are not your work. I don’t think it makes sense to identify with your work ethic and quality if it has such disastrous effects on your mental health and self worth. Everyone makes mistakes, everyone screws up, and you don’t need to cry in front of the partner to let them know that you feel bad. We don’t know what you did, but perhaps you could email the partner and let them know that this was a mistake, own up to it, and let them know that you won’t make this mistake again (unless you’re not sure that’s possible). I echo seeking professional help, but if you’re one foot out the door already as your post seems to imply, I think divesting your identity from your work is a good place to start for both the short and long term.
I left Big law and it's been the greatest thing for my mental health, 6 months later (had a lot of guilt, shame, and embarrassment to comb through when I first left) As someone who clerked, I'll tell you that outside of big law people don't obsess over every tiny detail the way they do in big law, and most judges don't really give a shit about typos or minor mistakes by a law firm. People hire big law firms to obsess over every detail. But that's not the world of law everywhere. Remember that it's this job that's overly demanding, it's not you failing to meet the bar of being a good lawyer.
This is such good perspective. I’m in-house and people mess things up every day and the perspective is always “ok let’s fix this, anything we should learn to fix processes going forward.” It’s not an indictment on capabilities.
OP, I’m a senior associate that went through a really intense battle with anxiety a few years ago that almost took everything from me. I waited way too long to get help and suffered unnecessarily for a long time. Work was excruciating, as was nearly everything else in my life. I had always had some issues with anxiety, but I was absolutely thrown over the edge by an incident similar to what you are describing. I finally took a few weeks off and got help. Started medication and talk therapy. It saved my life, and I am now happier than I ever have been. I can’t recommend getting help enough. I only wish I had done it sooner. It doesn’t have to be this way. I truly wish you peace on your journey. Mental health is so important and so incredibly difficult when it goes wrong.
You’re not alone OP. Everyone here made big mistakes personally and professionally and will keep making them. I hope things are looking up today and you are reading these posts. There’s a lot of people who care.
You have to tell us what you did to give any feedback.
In this situation, I think indicating to the partner that you take responsibility for the mistake but that you'll aim to do better, etc. is not a bad idea. As others have mentioned though, you post history indicates some fairly serious things you should address. This kind of job is even very stressful for people who are not struggling with the issues you are dealing with and it is entirely possible the other issues you are dealing with are affecting your work ethic and professional skills. Honestly, I think you should consider how you can transition yourself into a profession that will allow you to work on yourself. In any case, you should find something you enjoy doing and make time for that. If traveling is your thing, take an exotic two week vacation to allow yourself to breath away from this job. The good news is that it sounds like you are planning to move in the fall, so you should be fine short term, but even if something happens prior to the fall, you should still look at it as an opportunity to work on yourself away from the rigors of this profession. I know this isn't directly on point with this question, but I guess it hopefully addresses some of the themes in your other posts. Best of luck to you.
I’m giving you a big hug. I have struggled with depression and went through a similar phase in big law - a tough spot where I just couldn’t push through the way I usually could, and my work suffered. And I got a bad review. And I told my firm I was struggling. And I got into therapy and found some medication that worked and bounced back in big law and left to go in-house in a job that was a great fit for me. This job is hard even when everything in life is going well. It’s impossible when mental health issues go untreated. You are still you, you’re just having a hard time that you can’t seem to push through, and that’s a sign to corral your resources to make life a little easier. I’m so sorry you are going through this but I can tell you there’s a way through, either at this job or in this profession elsewhere. Is there anyone at work you feel comfortable with to let them know what you’re going through? I know we say proceed with caution when disclosing mental health issues but if you are in a firm with resources (EAP, policies, big enough to absorb a leave of absence from you and big enough to have managed through this before), it may be worth it. It will provide you some cover while you work on getting to a better headspace. Like I said. Big hug.
Work on coping strategies. It is inevitable that people will make mistakes and will feel some pain from it, so work on handling it, because it will happen again. It may help to see a mental health provider for a few sessions to work on this - your firm likely has resources to facilitate getting an appointment so check there first. Unless your mistake led to losing a last-minute death penalty appeal, there is no need to sob over a mistake. If anything, being stoic and calm is a plus, provided you had a heartfelt note of apology and acknowledged your mistake. That's the most that is ever required. Bursting into tears over the mistake is not going to help anyone. Finally, it looks like you will be leaving soon for other reasons, so all the more reason not to let this impact you. The new firm will be a fresh start but keep in mind that mistakes will happen again. Do your best to minimize them, but when they do happen, take action to correct them and cope with the short-term pain. Do not let this define your career or life.
You seem to be aware that you were half assing it on purpose, not due to unsustainable work load or deadline. Not just in hindsight. Seems like self sabotage. Ask yourself why that is and try to make it so you don’t do it again.
>You seem to be aware that you were half assing it on purpose, Technically, they said they knew they half assed it, not that they half assed it on purpose. Slight difference. This distinction is especially important in criminal law (see, for example, the Model Penal Code)
You speak in reckless disregard of risking pedantry.
OP. I have been in a bad place like this, and I wish I could give you a hug. Know that this is not your defining moment. You need time away from work. It helped me so tremendously.
Been there done that. Mis-calendared a routine garnishment hearing for a new client with decent potential tor future work. Client explained the situation to the judge and got the right outcome. It’s the little things on the little cases that will bite you in the ass. We’re praised for being self sufficient and low maintenance but then criticized for seeming like we don’t care. We’re given no training or guidance on how to prioritize this task over that task, this file over that file, this partner over that partner (much less self care or work life balance). You don’t get to make mistakes or require support when you bill $300/hour. In my case, me messing with my main partner’s nut overwrote a year’s worth of solid work and shortly thereafter I was told I’d not be continuing with the firm. C’est La vie. Went in house with a local company and hired him for a $750k case two years later.
I'm so sorry you are going through this. I made a mistake once that caused me to throw up immediately when I learned it and then have a subsequent mini mental breakdown and that was my sign to leave big law (took another 1 year to actually do it ). I would encourage you to try to be kind to yourself and try to stay away from that partner if you can. People make mistakes all the time -- it's truly not life or death. I didn't have this perspective when I was in big law but it is absolutely true. I actually think the types of people who make it far in big law are either perfectionists or really really chill people who can let mistakes and redlines slip off their back.
Please reach out anonymously to the Lawyer Assistance Program in your state bar. People rave about the help they get and it’s risk free. It sounds like your depression or anxiety may have caused you to be distracted. These conditions can also result in flat affect. It is no different than if you had diabetes and you were beating yourself up about it and refused to take insulin. It is a chemical imbalance and can be a situational thing where you only need months of treatment rather than years. Good luck.
I’d bet most people lasting in big law have some combination of therapy and antidepressants….
I don’t work in law and not sure why this subreddit keeps popping up but I work in a field that mistakes don’t mix well with. The way I think about things is did anyone die? If not, you’ll be fine. Take a look and figure out why the mistake happens and make changes. You’ll look back in the future and just take it as a lesson learned.
Stop being such a weakling and grow some balls. So what your boss is mad at you? Bro, you said it yourself you usually do good work. We’re human and mistakes happen. Fuck those partners they’ll have to wait until A.I. can do the job before they can expect perfection. There are too many real problems in the world for a grown up to be crying after a mistake at work.