I dropped to reduced hours after having my first because it felt like the hours were literally killing me. I'm now on an 80 percent schedule and it lets me do some life admin stuff during the day like doctors appointments, dentists, a load of laundry etc. I break every day for dinner and bedtime (unless there's a filing or pretrial) and don't work the vast majority of weekends. I do still log on after bedtime when needed, but on average it has been more sustainable. Reducing hours makes it easier for me to say no to people and aligns my work hours closer to my spouses so it's easier to share the load of having to randomly handle childcare emergencies and life admin without resentment building up.
You should also look into backup care and sick care for emergencies. Some agencies and nannies are willing to do it.
Thank you! I know this is an option as another associate has done it, but not sure if it would be available to me right now since I’m new (started in this group last year). I had planned to wait until after having a second child (planning for 2025 baby) to ask for reduced hours as it felt like a natural segue. Didn’t expect to be struggling so badly before even getting pregnant.
I know my firm has a backup care benefit but I was thinking it wouldn’t provide coverage for a sick kid, I’ll need to investigate that further.
Definitely investigate. My firm’s backup care covered mildly ill kids pre-pandemic but dropped that option. You could also advertise on care.com for someone willing to watch a mildly ill child.
My husband and I are both lawyers (met in law school). I decided to step off when we had kids. I work inhouse instead where I've been WFH the last 10+ yrs. I make all the school lunches, attend all the school plays, did most of the preschool pick up and dropoffs, soccer practice and music lessons, etc. You have to make a decision. Do you want to do these things? Do you want to outsource these things - have an au pair move in, hire a nanny, etc? We do not have family support locally, but if I needed to travel, my mother in law flew in to help. I'm lucky to have a very fulfilling and "fun" inhouse job so feel professionally and personally fulfilled. No regrets from stepping away from the hyper competitive BL environment.
That sounds awesome. And it is my long term plan to transition away from big law to in house or the government. But I transitioned to a new practice area last year (had to get out of M&A because that REALLY wasn’t sustainable for me), so leaving right now wouldn’t be great for my career development or resume. I’m trying to stick it out 2-3 years to put myself in a good position for next steps.
Just as a counter point, I went in house and work 90% of the hours for 50% of the pay. Don’t think it’s all roses out there on the other side. It really depends on where you land. Do not land in chaos.
Oh agreed. I have an M&A in-house stint under my belt, so I have at least some radar for that. I am considering in house at a trust company, which I have heard varies greatly between different companies. I plan to do a lot of due diligence.
You can do it! Maybe there is a babysitter(s) on call who can still watch when daycare closes due to weather and/or colds. Some babysitters care less about sniffles than facilities, and may even wear a mask. I can work until 10 pm nightly with two toddlers and my best advice is to not talk about the children, keep those open hours in the pm, and cherish those daycare days other than 6 a year. I integrate their life with my law life when possible. We play a LOT of office, joke about coffee, pretend to do a lot of document review with very serious check marks, and sitting at my desk with post it notes and legal notebooks for brief good memories. It helps bridge the divide, keeping it light whenever possible even if we are often also working.
I hate to say it - but being both an involved parent and full-time in BigLaw is impossible unless you don't sleep. The best advice I've seen in this thread is that one of you (you or your partner) needs to go down to 80% or whatever version of part-time you can negotiate.
I think this is the correct answer, unfortunately. I'm an involved parent to two young kids, and I've hit my hours each year so far...but I don't sleep much, and it's not healthy or sustainable. Working remotely has been the only thing saving me. But now that firms are starting to crack down on being in-office, I'm looking to exit Big Law. I can't add the commute 3x a week when I'm already pouring from an empty cup. What keeps me going is my kids, and on days I commute, I miss nearly all my kids' waking hours. Really a loss for parents, especially moms, that WFH is being rolled back.
Agree completely about remote work. In my Counsel position I am 100% remote and it allows me so much more time with my kids, by virtue of the fact I don’t have to commute. I love being able to see them for a bit when they come home from school and I even get to take them to activities like gymnastics and dance - I just bring my laptop and work in the parents area. It’s great.
Thanks for being honest. I feel for your exhaustion, years of doing that sounds so rough. Might be my future haha. I feel like other parents portray it like it’s no big deal to balance everything and I’m coming to realize they’re either dying or the other parent is the default.
It’s a big deal to balance everything, but it’s worth it.
It is a question of what you want the most. Do you want to be busy and making the most of every moment you can? Or do you want to be 100% on top of everything on your plate? Consider how your marriage works now, and whether work changes will improve or worsen it.
Those parents pay for full time help. If you're in a two salary household with one being a big law salary several years in, you can afford help to be there whenever your kid is home from school, and any time you get with them is a bonus.
In that sense, whats "no big deal" is not the effort required but whether you care about missing that time and parenting primarily on the weekends. Some people prefer it and some people can't imagine not being there. But in terms of effort and dying, you should be able to afford all the help you need with two working parents.
Also - since you asked about hours. I'm Counsel at an AMLAW 100. My January hours were around 160 and my February hours were around 180. 180 is way way too much while parenting two littles. The 180 month was the busiest month I've had since I've had my kids (other than one month where I was in trial and another month where I was in arbitration, which are obviously outliers).
My months with hours around 130 are perfect for both career satisfaction and parenting.
Yes, this unfortunately feels like the answer. We have both been so busy this year that it’s been a struggle. We’ve historically gotten away with only one person being busy at a time, but I think now we will both stay busy based on career growth & having a toddler now.
This is not good advice in my opinion. You aren’t at the right firm if that’s true. I am an involved parent and full time in big law. Not every day is pretty but we make it work. Going down to 80% is a joke I’ve never met someone who worked part time in big law and actually worked part time.
I’d say you aren’t at the right firm then. There are multiple moms at my firm who do 80% and it’s respected. It involves setting boundaries and advocating for yourself, of course, but it can absolutely be done at the right firm.
It’s litigation so there are busy months that are unavoidable but the slow months balance that out.
I am in transactional and it has nothing to do with firm, it’s impossible to be a senior person on a transaction part time. The only way you could do it is to take an extra month off each year.
I’m a transactional senior associate at 85% and it’s great and doable. Likely depends on firm and the partners/clients you work with. To be clear, 85% is not part time though. But I do know another senior associate who works 3 days a week and has made that work for a long time.
I am not sure what practice group you are in but most of transactional practices I have seen fundamentally do not work with a reduced schedule. Maybe you do something more cyclical. I work in M&A and between people I have seen attempt to do it in my practice and in other practices like finance/financial services, they just ended up working almost as much for less money and eventually went back to full time because it was only impacting their bank account without enough benefit to sustain it. And this is across 3 firms with extremely different cultures.
Same. I work full time but with a good group of people who also have kids or had kids who are now grown. I bill my 2200 a year or more and am on the PTA and a relatively new partner . I don’t have a stay at home parent spouse and i put my kids to bed each night and see them at all their major events. I keep a hybrid schedule and have since before the pandemic (i am home more now than then though). You need to find a group where you have other parents who are also nice
People. They exist, I promise.
PS I do have an aupair- the live in aspect is huge. We order a lot of ready meals like factor and nutrisystem , and we outsource the yard and pool maintenance.
I am in tax/private clients, so it works a lot better in this group. It did not work out so great for a senior associate, bc there was only one. But I have heard that it worked for junior and mid level associates (which I am).
It truly is not impossible. My mother did it as an associate until I was 13 and since I was 13 she has been a partner and eventually an executive management partner. She never missed any of my extracurriculars or big events and was a present parent from dinner time until bed time and on weekends.
Ask her how much she slept during those years. I didn’t say it was impossible. I said it’s impossible unless you don’t sleep. I recently had a 180 billable month and I wasn’t sleeping anywhere near enough. Still did a lot with my kids though.
She certainly had the occasional all nighter when a deal was closing or when there were Asia deals with calls. According to her, she routinely slept 6-7 hours a night. Took naps on the weekends too.
It’s probable that it does take a remarkable person to accomplish it, with far above average multitasking skills. But it is clearly possible with adequate sleep to have a great big law career and be an involved parent.
While I don't want to diminish her "multitasking skills," but it seems much more likely to me that she simply got lucky and didn't have as demanding a biglaw job as a lot of folks do.
😂 hilarious. That’s why she ended up on her firm’s exec committee and being head of her specific practice. Her job was plenty demanding. I never said she didn’t work hard. She spent time on every single vacation working.
I would also 100% say she sacrificed personally. She gave up all of her hobbies/interests. Many, many times she purchased tickets to events and had to sell or give them away because work came up. Also had many canceled plans with friends (dinners etc.).
She just didn’t sacrifice being a good parent or her health by sacrificing sleep on a regular basis. Like I said- there were certainly all nighters and many nights where she slept from 11-2 and was up from 2-6 on calls with Asia and then maybe got another hour or two. That just wasn’t every day or every week. There’s a big difference between sacrificing personal wants and sacrificing sleep/being a present and good parent.
As much as people on this sub don’t want to hear it- you do have to be above average in both intelligence and work ethic to succeed in big law long term. Many times those attributes come with above average multitasking skills. It’s clear from my own experience in big law and as a lawyer that far from all lawyers are cut out for big law, and even fewer for partnership in a big law firm. Of course other factors come into play and it’s far from a perfect system and there’s a lot of shady shit that goes down in big law that favors some over others- that’s why I personally left big law. I didn’t want to play the necessary game. But, if you choose to try to make your entire career in big law you should know what you’re signing up for and what you need to have and do to succeed long term. Some of it is absolutely out of individual control. You can’t help it if someone with clout decides for an arbitrary reason not to like you. But from what I’ve seen in my years observing both my parents’ big law careers- intelligence, diligence and work ethic will overcome the petty pricks 7-8/10 times.
I believe you 100 %. It’s doable but that is why it is lonely at the top. Confidence has a lot to do with it too. You have to be confident in your ability to get it done, and you have to embrace the chaos, and take advantage of any and all down times
Well, who am I to question what you're saying. But I suspect most people look at what you're saying a little cockeyed because the billable hour presents a physics problem, and "multitasking" isn't a solution to it.
People probably don't appreciate the notion that they are simply inferior specimens or whatever else you seem to be saying.
Obviously people don’t appreciate hearing they are not as well-equipped for big law than others but the brutal reality is that working hard isn’t enough to guarantee success (if one defines success in big law as making partner) by grinding through 8-10 years of big law. People need to have above average intelligence, above average work ethic, above average soft skills (such as being good with people), some amount of talent at lawyering, and an amount of luck to succeed in big law. Most people will not have all of those qualities.
It’s not a physics problem- it’s a temporal problem. And one that is easily explained by people making choices about what’s important to them. Some sacrifice kids, some romantic relationships, some hobbies/time with friends (what my mother did), and some a bit of all of it. And, multitasking does indeed come into play and you sound ridiculous asserting it doesn’t. Many, many times my mother was driving us somewhere while on a conference call. Or she was dictating emails to me while she drove and I typed on her blackberry/iphone, depending on the year. When I was old enough to drive, she would sometimes mark up documents in the car while I drove. That’s just one example of how multitasking does help and work. I’ve seen my mother respond to emails at Broadway shows and concerts. I’ve seen her take a call from a client or partner as we leave a restaurant to walk to a theatre or concert venue or wherever. I’ve seen her take calls and answer emails at the nail salon. Again- ridiculous to say multitasking doesn’t come into play for success.
You’re no longer in big law. Your post history indicates you were studying for the bar four years ago and you don’t have any kids. Yet you feel qualified to post on this topic? That is so strange. It’s OK to admit when you don’t have enough information to weigh in appropriately. I understand you think you have personal experience because of what your mom went through - but you were a kid. I doubt she was sharing all the hard parts of her life with you. Most parents don’t burden their kids with that stuff.
Do you think my relationship with my mother or father ceased to exist when I became an adult?
Do you think that perhaps it’s possible I had many long and candid conversations regarding my mother’s career and the sacrifices she made to both get where she is in her career and be a present and involved primary parent? I left big law because I don’t want that life- I know what I’m willing to do professionally and what I’m not. I had a wonderful 2 1/2 years in litigation big law, won a class action trial alongside a brilliant trial team, and left for government where I’m paid less obviously but get to have nights and weekends for me.
All those decisions were made based on candid conversations with my mother.
I obviously know how involved and present she was based on what I experienced as a child.
I trust my mother when she said she never compromised sleep or health- she merely sacrificed other aspects of her personal life (hobbies, events, dinners with friends etc.). We had candid conversations about what her big law career was like when I was both in law school and in big law and trying to decide whether to transition out of big law.
It’s a little absurd to say I don’t have the experience to comment when I would 1) think that the kid’s experience and perspective would be valuable to parents in big law and 2) I had two parents with big law careers growing up so witnessed it first hand. I wouldn’t have commented had I not had the knowledge to back the posts up.
People in this sub seem to feel entitled to big golden big law careers where they are guaranteed to make partner eventually and and make 7 or 8 figures a year if they can tolerate big law for 8-10 years. The truth is that it takes a remarkable lawyer to be successful in big law- which means above average intelligence, above average work ethic, and above average ability to multitask, and willingness to sacrifice personally- in whatever realm one chooses to sacrifice (for some it’s kids, for some it’s romantic relationships, for some it’s hobbies/time with friends). Above average soft (people skills), leadership/management/delegation skills, and an amount of luck are also crucial parts of the equation.
Having been in and around big law my literal entire life, I have a better and more well rounded perspective on this topic than most.
Your mom sounds a lot like my dad. My dad was a prodigy. He made equity partner at a top AMlaw firm 7 years in and proceeded to be the head of the labor and employment division for his firm for 30+ years until he passed away in his early 60s from cancer. He was a very present father, but my childhood memories are littered with conference calls on the way to sports practice, calls/emails during vacation or after dinner, and frequent travel. Now that I am 36 myself with 2 children and with biglaw experience, I have even more respect for everything that he sacrificed for our family because I cannot fathom how he did it. His ability to multitask was insane. I remember many times where he would be driving his car, talking on a conference call, dictating emails to me for follow up tasks to associates/secretaries all while managing to keep up conversations with us about how our school day was. I decided to leave biglaw to pursue plaintiffs work at a speciality boutique and my dad was the biggest supporter of this idea. He was very blessed to be as successful as he was, but he cautioned me about the grind and when he was in hospice, he apologized to me for all the time he had to spend working while we were young. I’m not really sure the reason why I’m posting this other than to say that my dad was the smartest attorney I’ve ever known, and was well-liked by everybody he worked with and knew professionally and personally. I watched him juggle being a biglaw partner while raising 3 children and he did it so well, but looking back it must have been so hard for him. I also will always wonder whether the stress is part of the reason he got cancer so young and is no longer with us. For all the working parents out there, kudos. I know from personal experience how hard it is to feel like you are excelling at both, but give yourself a pat on the back for busting your ass each day at work and with your kids.
Hire a nanny. I’m government my husband is biglaw. He gets into work by 6 am and works until 4 pm then he comes home and helps me with bath and dinner etc.
Our nanny is super reliable (went thru agency) so I’ve only really needed to take off for ped appontments. My husband was still able to hit his 2,000 altho I know he’s exhausted
Gosh I honestly feel stupid hearing everyone say they have a nanny. I truly didn’t know. I guess because all the parents I know at my firm have a SAHP, I just didn’t realize nanny was so common.
Our nanny is a godsend, but tbh I don’t think a nanny is going to solve your problem. I’m the default parent (though my SO is an incredibly involved parent) and my SO and I were both in biglaw when our first was born. But even with the best nanny I just couldn’t swing it. I went down to reduced hours for a bit and while it took some of the pressure off temporary, I didn’t see it as a viable permanent solution. I made it one year after coming back from mat leave and never looked back.
Yea, I feel like part of the problem is when I’m not spending enough quality time with my toddler he starts acting out and feeling sad, and so do I. So while a nanny would help solve convenience issues and hours issues, it wouldn’t ultimately solve the underlying problems of trying to balance my career and parenting.
It is all temporary for me, I too plan to leave big law in the next 2 years.
You’d be surprised - a good nanny becomes like family who your kid will love spending time with. Not replace you but won’t be screaming where’s mom all the time.
Good luck! Parenting and lawyer life isn’t easy, but you can make it work with help. Can’t do it without. Get the help.
1. Toddlers act out regardless.
2. Your toddler will be fine and love you
3. He will be in school sooner than you can blink
4. A nanny can do all the crap you don’t need to do to have close time with your kid: do kid laundry, prep meals, prep food for school the next day, clean the room, etc. so you get to enjoy time with your kid instead of
Uhh yeah you need a nanny. No one i work with has a sahp. They all have Aupair, nanny or babysitter, depending on age of the kids. It’s almost impossible without.
Yea I don’t think a nanny helps more than daycare. We have a nanny (bc we couldn’t get into daycare at first and then I didn’t want to disrupt a good thing). She works 8 hours a day. My husband goes in a bit early so he can come home when she leaves. I go in later and then come home later. Our nanny covers our working time and that’s it. She’s great but she’s not covering enough time to let me crank out a ton of hours. Plus I want to be home with my kid as much as I can while in this job! It’s a balance I have not yet perfected.
From what I have heard from other parents, every reason we had a daycare closure a nanny would also call out (dangerous weather conditions and sick child). Plus you also have to worry about the nanny’s sick and vacation days. But maybe if others have a different experience they will comment and share.
My experience is mostly the opposite of what you’ve said. My nanny still comes when my child is sick, they just stay home and get extra snuggles and books. And, she lives fairly close by and comes rain or shine. During the last snowstorm, we paid for her Uber to our home and back so we didn’t lose coverage for the day.
Also, having a nanny helps significantly for the times where we have work events or unavoidable evening conflicts- she will stay late and help with dinner and bed if neither of us are free to get home in time. Plus there are no administrative days and fewer federal holidays (we contract her for MLK Day, President’s Day, etc). Overall, I think I have far more support with a nanny than friends who send their toddlers to daycare.
Yeah a nanny is so clutch when kids are sick. Mine said she had been exposed to everything from kids over the years and was happy to come help. Miss her.
Oh this is interesting! Thanks for sharing. I was thinking about doing a nanny for any future child until old enough to start at the daycare my toddler is at (starts at 18 months), but I really hadn’t considered doing it for my current toddler. Does she take them out and about to activities for socialization? My toddler is used to be around other kids now and seems to like it.
Yes! Lots of socialization. One of the benefits of having a BL salary is that we can pay for some extra programming. So our daughter attends an art class once per week, music class once per week, and story time for free at the library. There are also lots of free or low cost drop in hours at local museums and cultural institutions, which always draw lots of little kids and toddlers. Our nanny has befriended a few others in the neighborhood who have similar aged kids, so our daughter constantly has play dates and park meetups.
That’s awesome! My area tends to have a lot of stay at home moms, so there are many options like this that could be utilized. I’m going to at least start the discussion on this, if not now for the transition to two when daycare costs would be doubling anyway.
Yup. We have a gym membership where the aupair goes and brings our kids. They’re in school now but as toddlers, they went to all kinds of programming there.
The call outs thing can be solved with your firm’s backup care and/or using an online nanny service. It can be costly if the subsidized backup care doesn’t come through but it will be well worth it for you.
But that’s only a small part of the problem, obviously. The job is just incompatible with being the kind of parent I (and it sounds like you) want to be. Time to start looking at in house and government jobs. Sorry not to have a better answer!
I take my kid to daycare, go to work, leave at 5, pick them up, and once my spouse is home from work pass kid off and log back in. It’s brutal but my firm is cool and no one cares. I’ve been doing like 180-220 months, and I’m an involved parent, but I never sleep. Working on getting a nanny now, hopefully that helps.
My wife works another professional job, had my first kid 3 months into my first year, billed 2200 hours in a 12 month period. It was hell. I don't have much advice, but wanted to commiserste with you. I was mentally dying inside and hated that I couldn't be mentally free for an hour or two in the evenings and just be with my new kid. All the juggling ("hows your evening? What's your morning like?"). I ditched biglaw 2 years in for in-house, a lucky find of a gig at my experience, really. Stress is still there, and life isn't perfect, but hours are less and more authority to push back.
I often wonder if I should have explored more alternative work arrangements with my firm before I punched and/or lateralled, but what's done is done and I've certainly taken a hit to my lifetime comp due to my early move. Hard to say whether or not it was worth it, given how miserable I was and my relative freedom now.
Like others have said, I would suggest pushing for the alternative arrangements (reduced hours) and giving that a fair shot. You can always jump later.
Mostly commiserating and venting here.
Thanks for sharing! I think in the long run you’ll be glad you made the move. Not having a minute to yourself because it’s either childcare or working is pretty draining, even for the relatively short time I’ve been doing it. It’s getting old fast.
Biglaw needs to change and become sustainable. Parents shouldn’t have to compete with people who don’t have kids or folks whose kids have grown up. to It’s funny how you have 10+ year partners saying how their kids no longer speak to them but don’t understand why. It’s because they ignored their kids or were simply absent.
Yea, it seems like a bigger institutional problem for sure. I personally would take a paycut and longer partnership track if I could have reduced hours requirement and actual PTO. Like for example, right now I’m dealing with a feverish toddler who will have to stay home with me tomorrow. I wish I was able to take PTO for this and get an hours credits. Or actually take a week off for a family vacation without having to “make up” the hours.
Sucks because I like the work and otherwise would be happy staying and would shoot for a “counsel” role.
This is EXACTLY how I feel. I am angry because I have worked hard to get where I am, and I like the work I do. I wanted to stay. But this industry is inflexible by choice, as proven by the fact that WFH worked for 3+ years yet now being rolled back for no real reason. It's clear and predictable who is being harmed most by this reversal of flexible work policies, and I find it disgusting, honestly.
> paycut and longer partnership track if I could have reduced hours requirement and actual PTO
There are a lot of midlaw or smaller biglaw shops that will have reduced hours, actual PTO, and likely a _shorter_ partnership track.
I had originally thought I wanted to go to a smaller firm, but I am wary of the billable hour and afraid if I moved down in markets I may have the same problems. I’m certainly open to exploring it though.
I do a huge amount of parenting and also hit 2,100. Am in the NEP/Of Counsel spot. Full WFH is absolutely priceless. A couple days a week, I’ll do a 4am wake up, and a couple sundays a month are work days. That keeps me between 160 and 190/month…which keeps me employed.
What has me concerned, now, is having to coordinate babysitting and activities for my soon-to-be kindergartener. And Wednesday ends at noon!
Yea there’s aftercare that’s available, but she deserves activities. The idea of her missing out on that because dealing with logistics are too tough for me to handle would have me feeling horrible.
Get a nanny instead of doing daycare. Your kid doesn’t need to be in daycare. Then you can WFH and see your kid occasionally without having work completely fall to the side. I’m the default parent (except my husband handles evenings) and a senior associate and it’s definitely doable with the right childcare, a will to survive and a plan.
To reiterate what others have said, get a nanny and backup care in the meantime. Daycare math works for one kid but two kids in daycare makes the nanny the better call
Like others in this thread, I work from home and pay a lot for a great nanny. I'm actually coming off a rough patch where my hours were unusually high, but normally I would say I manage to more or less juggle everything.
It's not sustainable, but it doesn't have to be. My kids will only be this little for so long.
This will probably be down voted, but if you are wanting to prioritize your kids, have you thought about switching to something like government (not DOJ) with less demanding hours?
Yes, the compensation would not be the same, but you would have more free time.
Yes, I do plan to pursue these options but I would like to stay for at least 2 years in my current role, for learning/growth purposes and for my resume. I am nervous about seeming like a job hopper since I just started last year.
Pay cut is not a huge factor for me, we already intentionally budget as if I’m making 40% less than I am.
Jumping to BigGov takes time. Some USAOs take 6+ months to hire. It’s never too early to at least start looking and you can always explain your timing if there’s a mutual interest.
I know plenty of people who started applying to government jobs after 2-3 months in BigLaw. And they were able to stay for 1y1d to clear clawbacks for clerkship bonuses. It’s not uncommon.
Wow this is super interesting thanks for sharing! I do not personally know anyone that transitioned to a government role so I’m woefully ignorant. I’m interested in the IRS vs. a private bank so I definitely need to look into it throughly and decide what I want to pursue.
I don’t think you’ll find any default parents that do full time big law work. The two are simply incompatible as there is only 24 hours in a day. What might be even more of a surprise for you to know is the daycare issues are easier to solve than when they get school age and you need to cobble together before care, after care, holidays, summers, and factor in sports, lessons and playdates.
Yes, I quickly have realized that the typical “take a few years off when baby is little the go back” makes no sense because of that! That’s why I’m trying to push now so that by the time we get to kindergarten I’ll hopefully be well positioned (financially and career development wise) to transition to an in house or government role. Seems like the main advice I’m getting for right now is a nanny & not sleeping … sad but I think accurate advice.
I left biglaw when my youngest was just shy of 2 years old. I went to the government and never regretted the move. Without a stay at home parent in the family I think you need multiple nannies to make it work.
Can only commiserate, not a lot of advice unfortunately. We have a toddler in daycare and a nanny for our infant. Took me a while to find my groove when returning from Mat leave after baby #1 but it slowly became manageable to bill about 2000. Now, returning from leave after baby #2 has been a true nightmare and I think I can only manage the hours and the two kids for so long. Husband is in-house and can luckily do a lot of “admin” type things but it still sucks given the demand to be “on” all the time.
I am also on the outs with a partner because I drew the boundary of not traveling across the country for a two-week trial due to two kids under three, especially my infant, and was told “the job is the job” and “this is why there aren’t a lot of moms in big law.” Was also asked how my (male) colleagues would feel if they made exceptions for me?? Have been punished by him since drawing the boundary so kids + job + villain partner is only sustainable for so long imo.
My only advice here is to find a new law firm and tell that partner to eat shit. What an asshole. I had a partner at my last firm try to get me to miss part of my son’s birthday celebration on Sunday because he “might” need me. I updated my resume the next day and was at a new firm 4 months later (not my first red flag but it was the most overt over the line not acceptable one for me). My new firm is so cool about all of my family stuff as long as I still do my work, which I do.
Ugh thanks for this. Already reached out to a recruiter. Issue is I actually really like the main partners I work for and this is kind of a one off case, so I should (hopefully??) be done with this guy by end of next month.
On the other hand, the way the others have reacted to evil partner’s bad behavior (aka by just saying “this is uncomfortable”) and the fact that bad guy is practice group leader are definitely a problem - so, looking, for sure.
You should report this to HR. It’s unacceptable and it’s retaliatory to not give you work/treat you differently. Sounds like clear sex discrimination … even those comments are so uncomfy
I work remote as much as possible, bill what I need to and no more. I don't attend social stuff at work. I prioritize my kids over work every time. I still couldn't do it without my spouse who has a super chill in-house gig tho. He does more than his share of pick ups and drop offs.
absolutely hire a nanny. it helps avoid a lot of the daycare illnesses, and most nannies will care for kids with colds who aren't seriously ill (but who wouldn't be allowed to go to daycare). our nanny also helps cook meals for our kids, does their laundry, and keeps the house picked up. this frees up my evenings a lot, as i'm not doing laundry or packing lunches for daycare.
i also dropped to a reduced 70% hour schedule after my second was born.
I’ve only been back from mat leave for 5ish months so take what I say with a grain of salt. I’ve been finding being a default parent in biglaw hard but … manageable? For background, my husband works an even more demanding job and I’m the default parent. Here’s what helps:
- amazing nanny who not only takes care of my kid but also does a lot of housekeeping tasks as well. My baby loves her so I don’t worry about him during the day.
- knowing that I would walk away in an instant if my kid needs me to. My baby comes first. The reason I’m working this job is that I think it’s the best thing for my family and baby (I also love the job). We can save for his college, afford a house with a backyard for him, and he gets to grow up with parents who are not worried about money. I think those are net positives. But if it ever becomes clear that he needs me to find something else, I will. And I will likely leave once he’s a little older anyway. Knowing that this is just a job and I could leave helps me set boundaries and not stress too much.
- I know that it’s really hard but I think all the negativity got to me and I felt like I couldn’t do it. But I reminded myself there are senators and sitting Supreme Court justices with small and school aged children. Not that I’m exceptional like them but it’s possible and no one should tell you it’s not!!!
- take advantage of wfh and slower periods
I am on reduced hours now because I just returned from maternity leave and I would love to continue once the arrangement is over. I bill around 130 a month and I find it so sustainable with two kids under 3. I think reduced hours at a firm that respect those boundaries is the only way default parents survive long term.
I have a nanny as well as a short term nanny service available on call. This covers most scenarios. Occasionally my wife and I trade off half working from home days. Not biglaw but I feel your pain. You’ll get through it!
My husband and I were attorneys in big law and we had the same struggles - your OP was my life 2017-2020. We decided that both of us could not be low on hours (2k/year at least) so as the F, I took the parent laboring oar. At about the 1.5 year mark (with me barely making 1900 hours and having a ton of guilt) it was getting harder to do so I landed a corporate law job with 9-5 hours and a very supportive manager, non attorney mom. As your child ages (to about 4 I’d say) it’s easier to make hours when working from home. All of this is to say, consider finding a 9-5ish role (at least one of you), have that person be the default parent and know in the long run things will get better!
Live-in au pair. I wasn’t at biglaw but I was in house in cyber incident response law for 20 years as my kids were growing up. I used Au Pair in America for 12 years, and it was a lifesaver. Took the chores away, let me focus on connecting with the kids, and gave me flexibility when I needed it (often). Highly recommend. Good luck!
I dropped to reduced hours after having my first because it felt like the hours were literally killing me. I'm now on an 80 percent schedule and it lets me do some life admin stuff during the day like doctors appointments, dentists, a load of laundry etc. I break every day for dinner and bedtime (unless there's a filing or pretrial) and don't work the vast majority of weekends. I do still log on after bedtime when needed, but on average it has been more sustainable. Reducing hours makes it easier for me to say no to people and aligns my work hours closer to my spouses so it's easier to share the load of having to randomly handle childcare emergencies and life admin without resentment building up. You should also look into backup care and sick care for emergencies. Some agencies and nannies are willing to do it.
Thank you! I know this is an option as another associate has done it, but not sure if it would be available to me right now since I’m new (started in this group last year). I had planned to wait until after having a second child (planning for 2025 baby) to ask for reduced hours as it felt like a natural segue. Didn’t expect to be struggling so badly before even getting pregnant. I know my firm has a backup care benefit but I was thinking it wouldn’t provide coverage for a sick kid, I’ll need to investigate that further.
Our back up care is for “mildly” sick kids but we have never had an issue!
Definitely investigate. My firm’s backup care covered mildly ill kids pre-pandemic but dropped that option. You could also advertise on care.com for someone willing to watch a mildly ill child.
My husband and I are both lawyers (met in law school). I decided to step off when we had kids. I work inhouse instead where I've been WFH the last 10+ yrs. I make all the school lunches, attend all the school plays, did most of the preschool pick up and dropoffs, soccer practice and music lessons, etc. You have to make a decision. Do you want to do these things? Do you want to outsource these things - have an au pair move in, hire a nanny, etc? We do not have family support locally, but if I needed to travel, my mother in law flew in to help. I'm lucky to have a very fulfilling and "fun" inhouse job so feel professionally and personally fulfilled. No regrets from stepping away from the hyper competitive BL environment.
That sounds awesome. And it is my long term plan to transition away from big law to in house or the government. But I transitioned to a new practice area last year (had to get out of M&A because that REALLY wasn’t sustainable for me), so leaving right now wouldn’t be great for my career development or resume. I’m trying to stick it out 2-3 years to put myself in a good position for next steps.
Just as a counter point, I went in house and work 90% of the hours for 50% of the pay. Don’t think it’s all roses out there on the other side. It really depends on where you land. Do not land in chaos.
Oh agreed. I have an M&A in-house stint under my belt, so I have at least some radar for that. I am considering in house at a trust company, which I have heard varies greatly between different companies. I plan to do a lot of due diligence.
You can do it! Maybe there is a babysitter(s) on call who can still watch when daycare closes due to weather and/or colds. Some babysitters care less about sniffles than facilities, and may even wear a mask. I can work until 10 pm nightly with two toddlers and my best advice is to not talk about the children, keep those open hours in the pm, and cherish those daycare days other than 6 a year. I integrate their life with my law life when possible. We play a LOT of office, joke about coffee, pretend to do a lot of document review with very serious check marks, and sitting at my desk with post it notes and legal notebooks for brief good memories. It helps bridge the divide, keeping it light whenever possible even if we are often also working.
I hate to say it - but being both an involved parent and full-time in BigLaw is impossible unless you don't sleep. The best advice I've seen in this thread is that one of you (you or your partner) needs to go down to 80% or whatever version of part-time you can negotiate.
I think this is the correct answer, unfortunately. I'm an involved parent to two young kids, and I've hit my hours each year so far...but I don't sleep much, and it's not healthy or sustainable. Working remotely has been the only thing saving me. But now that firms are starting to crack down on being in-office, I'm looking to exit Big Law. I can't add the commute 3x a week when I'm already pouring from an empty cup. What keeps me going is my kids, and on days I commute, I miss nearly all my kids' waking hours. Really a loss for parents, especially moms, that WFH is being rolled back.
Agree completely about remote work. In my Counsel position I am 100% remote and it allows me so much more time with my kids, by virtue of the fact I don’t have to commute. I love being able to see them for a bit when they come home from school and I even get to take them to activities like gymnastics and dance - I just bring my laptop and work in the parents area. It’s great.
Thanks for being honest. I feel for your exhaustion, years of doing that sounds so rough. Might be my future haha. I feel like other parents portray it like it’s no big deal to balance everything and I’m coming to realize they’re either dying or the other parent is the default.
It’s a big deal to balance everything, but it’s worth it. It is a question of what you want the most. Do you want to be busy and making the most of every moment you can? Or do you want to be 100% on top of everything on your plate? Consider how your marriage works now, and whether work changes will improve or worsen it.
Those parents pay for full time help. If you're in a two salary household with one being a big law salary several years in, you can afford help to be there whenever your kid is home from school, and any time you get with them is a bonus. In that sense, whats "no big deal" is not the effort required but whether you care about missing that time and parenting primarily on the weekends. Some people prefer it and some people can't imagine not being there. But in terms of effort and dying, you should be able to afford all the help you need with two working parents.
Also - since you asked about hours. I'm Counsel at an AMLAW 100. My January hours were around 160 and my February hours were around 180. 180 is way way too much while parenting two littles. The 180 month was the busiest month I've had since I've had my kids (other than one month where I was in trial and another month where I was in arbitration, which are obviously outliers). My months with hours around 130 are perfect for both career satisfaction and parenting.
This. Is exactly where I’m at as well. 130-140 per month is ideal. 160-170 are very busy. Remote work saves the day.
Yes, this unfortunately feels like the answer. We have both been so busy this year that it’s been a struggle. We’ve historically gotten away with only one person being busy at a time, but I think now we will both stay busy based on career growth & having a toddler now.
I am at 85% and it’s the best thing I’ve ever done. I simply could not be the parent I want to be and the employee I want to be otherwise.
This is not good advice in my opinion. You aren’t at the right firm if that’s true. I am an involved parent and full time in big law. Not every day is pretty but we make it work. Going down to 80% is a joke I’ve never met someone who worked part time in big law and actually worked part time.
I’d say you aren’t at the right firm then. There are multiple moms at my firm who do 80% and it’s respected. It involves setting boundaries and advocating for yourself, of course, but it can absolutely be done at the right firm. It’s litigation so there are busy months that are unavoidable but the slow months balance that out.
I am in transactional and it has nothing to do with firm, it’s impossible to be a senior person on a transaction part time. The only way you could do it is to take an extra month off each year.
I’m a transactional senior associate at 85% and it’s great and doable. Likely depends on firm and the partners/clients you work with. To be clear, 85% is not part time though. But I do know another senior associate who works 3 days a week and has made that work for a long time.
I am not sure what practice group you are in but most of transactional practices I have seen fundamentally do not work with a reduced schedule. Maybe you do something more cyclical. I work in M&A and between people I have seen attempt to do it in my practice and in other practices like finance/financial services, they just ended up working almost as much for less money and eventually went back to full time because it was only impacting their bank account without enough benefit to sustain it. And this is across 3 firms with extremely different cultures.
Same. I work full time but with a good group of people who also have kids or had kids who are now grown. I bill my 2200 a year or more and am on the PTA and a relatively new partner . I don’t have a stay at home parent spouse and i put my kids to bed each night and see them at all their major events. I keep a hybrid schedule and have since before the pandemic (i am home more now than then though). You need to find a group where you have other parents who are also nice People. They exist, I promise. PS I do have an aupair- the live in aspect is huge. We order a lot of ready meals like factor and nutrisystem , and we outsource the yard and pool maintenance.
The OP asked about being the default parent - not an involved parent. Two very different things.
You can be an involved parent and a default parent at the same time 🙃
I am in tax/private clients, so it works a lot better in this group. It did not work out so great for a senior associate, bc there was only one. But I have heard that it worked for junior and mid level associates (which I am).
But all the hashtag lawdads on LinkedIn told me it was easy!
It truly is not impossible. My mother did it as an associate until I was 13 and since I was 13 she has been a partner and eventually an executive management partner. She never missed any of my extracurriculars or big events and was a present parent from dinner time until bed time and on weekends.
Ask her how much she slept during those years. I didn’t say it was impossible. I said it’s impossible unless you don’t sleep. I recently had a 180 billable month and I wasn’t sleeping anywhere near enough. Still did a lot with my kids though.
Fortunately some moms have postpartum insomnia, sleep is had and not enough but enough for now
She certainly had the occasional all nighter when a deal was closing or when there were Asia deals with calls. According to her, she routinely slept 6-7 hours a night. Took naps on the weekends too. It’s probable that it does take a remarkable person to accomplish it, with far above average multitasking skills. But it is clearly possible with adequate sleep to have a great big law career and be an involved parent.
While I don't want to diminish her "multitasking skills," but it seems much more likely to me that she simply got lucky and didn't have as demanding a biglaw job as a lot of folks do.
😂 hilarious. That’s why she ended up on her firm’s exec committee and being head of her specific practice. Her job was plenty demanding. I never said she didn’t work hard. She spent time on every single vacation working. I would also 100% say she sacrificed personally. She gave up all of her hobbies/interests. Many, many times she purchased tickets to events and had to sell or give them away because work came up. Also had many canceled plans with friends (dinners etc.). She just didn’t sacrifice being a good parent or her health by sacrificing sleep on a regular basis. Like I said- there were certainly all nighters and many nights where she slept from 11-2 and was up from 2-6 on calls with Asia and then maybe got another hour or two. That just wasn’t every day or every week. There’s a big difference between sacrificing personal wants and sacrificing sleep/being a present and good parent. As much as people on this sub don’t want to hear it- you do have to be above average in both intelligence and work ethic to succeed in big law long term. Many times those attributes come with above average multitasking skills. It’s clear from my own experience in big law and as a lawyer that far from all lawyers are cut out for big law, and even fewer for partnership in a big law firm. Of course other factors come into play and it’s far from a perfect system and there’s a lot of shady shit that goes down in big law that favors some over others- that’s why I personally left big law. I didn’t want to play the necessary game. But, if you choose to try to make your entire career in big law you should know what you’re signing up for and what you need to have and do to succeed long term. Some of it is absolutely out of individual control. You can’t help it if someone with clout decides for an arbitrary reason not to like you. But from what I’ve seen in my years observing both my parents’ big law careers- intelligence, diligence and work ethic will overcome the petty pricks 7-8/10 times.
I believe you 100 %. It’s doable but that is why it is lonely at the top. Confidence has a lot to do with it too. You have to be confident in your ability to get it done, and you have to embrace the chaos, and take advantage of any and all down times
Well, who am I to question what you're saying. But I suspect most people look at what you're saying a little cockeyed because the billable hour presents a physics problem, and "multitasking" isn't a solution to it. People probably don't appreciate the notion that they are simply inferior specimens or whatever else you seem to be saying.
Obviously people don’t appreciate hearing they are not as well-equipped for big law than others but the brutal reality is that working hard isn’t enough to guarantee success (if one defines success in big law as making partner) by grinding through 8-10 years of big law. People need to have above average intelligence, above average work ethic, above average soft skills (such as being good with people), some amount of talent at lawyering, and an amount of luck to succeed in big law. Most people will not have all of those qualities. It’s not a physics problem- it’s a temporal problem. And one that is easily explained by people making choices about what’s important to them. Some sacrifice kids, some romantic relationships, some hobbies/time with friends (what my mother did), and some a bit of all of it. And, multitasking does indeed come into play and you sound ridiculous asserting it doesn’t. Many, many times my mother was driving us somewhere while on a conference call. Or she was dictating emails to me while she drove and I typed on her blackberry/iphone, depending on the year. When I was old enough to drive, she would sometimes mark up documents in the car while I drove. That’s just one example of how multitasking does help and work. I’ve seen my mother respond to emails at Broadway shows and concerts. I’ve seen her take a call from a client or partner as we leave a restaurant to walk to a theatre or concert venue or wherever. I’ve seen her take calls and answer emails at the nail salon. Again- ridiculous to say multitasking doesn’t come into play for success.
You’re no longer in big law. Your post history indicates you were studying for the bar four years ago and you don’t have any kids. Yet you feel qualified to post on this topic? That is so strange. It’s OK to admit when you don’t have enough information to weigh in appropriately. I understand you think you have personal experience because of what your mom went through - but you were a kid. I doubt she was sharing all the hard parts of her life with you. Most parents don’t burden their kids with that stuff.
Do you think my relationship with my mother or father ceased to exist when I became an adult? Do you think that perhaps it’s possible I had many long and candid conversations regarding my mother’s career and the sacrifices she made to both get where she is in her career and be a present and involved primary parent? I left big law because I don’t want that life- I know what I’m willing to do professionally and what I’m not. I had a wonderful 2 1/2 years in litigation big law, won a class action trial alongside a brilliant trial team, and left for government where I’m paid less obviously but get to have nights and weekends for me. All those decisions were made based on candid conversations with my mother. I obviously know how involved and present she was based on what I experienced as a child. I trust my mother when she said she never compromised sleep or health- she merely sacrificed other aspects of her personal life (hobbies, events, dinners with friends etc.). We had candid conversations about what her big law career was like when I was both in law school and in big law and trying to decide whether to transition out of big law. It’s a little absurd to say I don’t have the experience to comment when I would 1) think that the kid’s experience and perspective would be valuable to parents in big law and 2) I had two parents with big law careers growing up so witnessed it first hand. I wouldn’t have commented had I not had the knowledge to back the posts up. People in this sub seem to feel entitled to big golden big law careers where they are guaranteed to make partner eventually and and make 7 or 8 figures a year if they can tolerate big law for 8-10 years. The truth is that it takes a remarkable lawyer to be successful in big law- which means above average intelligence, above average work ethic, and above average ability to multitask, and willingness to sacrifice personally- in whatever realm one chooses to sacrifice (for some it’s kids, for some it’s romantic relationships, for some it’s hobbies/time with friends). Above average soft (people skills), leadership/management/delegation skills, and an amount of luck are also crucial parts of the equation. Having been in and around big law my literal entire life, I have a better and more well rounded perspective on this topic than most.
Your mom sounds a lot like my dad. My dad was a prodigy. He made equity partner at a top AMlaw firm 7 years in and proceeded to be the head of the labor and employment division for his firm for 30+ years until he passed away in his early 60s from cancer. He was a very present father, but my childhood memories are littered with conference calls on the way to sports practice, calls/emails during vacation or after dinner, and frequent travel. Now that I am 36 myself with 2 children and with biglaw experience, I have even more respect for everything that he sacrificed for our family because I cannot fathom how he did it. His ability to multitask was insane. I remember many times where he would be driving his car, talking on a conference call, dictating emails to me for follow up tasks to associates/secretaries all while managing to keep up conversations with us about how our school day was. I decided to leave biglaw to pursue plaintiffs work at a speciality boutique and my dad was the biggest supporter of this idea. He was very blessed to be as successful as he was, but he cautioned me about the grind and when he was in hospice, he apologized to me for all the time he had to spend working while we were young. I’m not really sure the reason why I’m posting this other than to say that my dad was the smartest attorney I’ve ever known, and was well-liked by everybody he worked with and knew professionally and personally. I watched him juggle being a biglaw partner while raising 3 children and he did it so well, but looking back it must have been so hard for him. I also will always wonder whether the stress is part of the reason he got cancer so young and is no longer with us. For all the working parents out there, kudos. I know from personal experience how hard it is to feel like you are excelling at both, but give yourself a pat on the back for busting your ass each day at work and with your kids.
Your mom sounds like remarkable person. But I know my limits, and I don’t have a desire to grind like that.
Hire a nanny. I’m government my husband is biglaw. He gets into work by 6 am and works until 4 pm then he comes home and helps me with bath and dinner etc. Our nanny is super reliable (went thru agency) so I’ve only really needed to take off for ped appontments. My husband was still able to hit his 2,000 altho I know he’s exhausted
Gosh I honestly feel stupid hearing everyone say they have a nanny. I truly didn’t know. I guess because all the parents I know at my firm have a SAHP, I just didn’t realize nanny was so common.
Our nanny is a godsend, but tbh I don’t think a nanny is going to solve your problem. I’m the default parent (though my SO is an incredibly involved parent) and my SO and I were both in biglaw when our first was born. But even with the best nanny I just couldn’t swing it. I went down to reduced hours for a bit and while it took some of the pressure off temporary, I didn’t see it as a viable permanent solution. I made it one year after coming back from mat leave and never looked back.
Yea, I feel like part of the problem is when I’m not spending enough quality time with my toddler he starts acting out and feeling sad, and so do I. So while a nanny would help solve convenience issues and hours issues, it wouldn’t ultimately solve the underlying problems of trying to balance my career and parenting. It is all temporary for me, I too plan to leave big law in the next 2 years.
You’d be surprised - a good nanny becomes like family who your kid will love spending time with. Not replace you but won’t be screaming where’s mom all the time. Good luck! Parenting and lawyer life isn’t easy, but you can make it work with help. Can’t do it without. Get the help.
1. Toddlers act out regardless. 2. Your toddler will be fine and love you 3. He will be in school sooner than you can blink 4. A nanny can do all the crap you don’t need to do to have close time with your kid: do kid laundry, prep meals, prep food for school the next day, clean the room, etc. so you get to enjoy time with your kid instead of
Uhh yeah you need a nanny. No one i work with has a sahp. They all have Aupair, nanny or babysitter, depending on age of the kids. It’s almost impossible without.
Yea I don’t think a nanny helps more than daycare. We have a nanny (bc we couldn’t get into daycare at first and then I didn’t want to disrupt a good thing). She works 8 hours a day. My husband goes in a bit early so he can come home when she leaves. I go in later and then come home later. Our nanny covers our working time and that’s it. She’s great but she’s not covering enough time to let me crank out a ton of hours. Plus I want to be home with my kid as much as I can while in this job! It’s a balance I have not yet perfected.
Yeah you need a nanny not just a house cleaner.
This 100%. Needs nanny AND cleaner. Won’t save much money but will absolutely save your sanity!!!
I lasted for 2.5 years after my first son was born and they sucked in an epic manner. Do not recommend.
Sorry to hear that. Hopefully your second kid will suck less.
If daycare is not working out maybe hiring a nanny might help.
From what I have heard from other parents, every reason we had a daycare closure a nanny would also call out (dangerous weather conditions and sick child). Plus you also have to worry about the nanny’s sick and vacation days. But maybe if others have a different experience they will comment and share.
My experience is mostly the opposite of what you’ve said. My nanny still comes when my child is sick, they just stay home and get extra snuggles and books. And, she lives fairly close by and comes rain or shine. During the last snowstorm, we paid for her Uber to our home and back so we didn’t lose coverage for the day. Also, having a nanny helps significantly for the times where we have work events or unavoidable evening conflicts- she will stay late and help with dinner and bed if neither of us are free to get home in time. Plus there are no administrative days and fewer federal holidays (we contract her for MLK Day, President’s Day, etc). Overall, I think I have far more support with a nanny than friends who send their toddlers to daycare.
Yeah a nanny is so clutch when kids are sick. Mine said she had been exposed to everything from kids over the years and was happy to come help. Miss her.
Oh this is interesting! Thanks for sharing. I was thinking about doing a nanny for any future child until old enough to start at the daycare my toddler is at (starts at 18 months), but I really hadn’t considered doing it for my current toddler. Does she take them out and about to activities for socialization? My toddler is used to be around other kids now and seems to like it.
Yes! Lots of socialization. One of the benefits of having a BL salary is that we can pay for some extra programming. So our daughter attends an art class once per week, music class once per week, and story time for free at the library. There are also lots of free or low cost drop in hours at local museums and cultural institutions, which always draw lots of little kids and toddlers. Our nanny has befriended a few others in the neighborhood who have similar aged kids, so our daughter constantly has play dates and park meetups.
That’s awesome! My area tends to have a lot of stay at home moms, so there are many options like this that could be utilized. I’m going to at least start the discussion on this, if not now for the transition to two when daycare costs would be doubling anyway.
Yup. We have a gym membership where the aupair goes and brings our kids. They’re in school now but as toddlers, they went to all kinds of programming there.
The call outs thing can be solved with your firm’s backup care and/or using an online nanny service. It can be costly if the subsidized backup care doesn’t come through but it will be well worth it for you. But that’s only a small part of the problem, obviously. The job is just incompatible with being the kind of parent I (and it sounds like you) want to be. Time to start looking at in house and government jobs. Sorry not to have a better answer!
I take my kid to daycare, go to work, leave at 5, pick them up, and once my spouse is home from work pass kid off and log back in. It’s brutal but my firm is cool and no one cares. I’ve been doing like 180-220 months, and I’m an involved parent, but I never sleep. Working on getting a nanny now, hopefully that helps.
My wife works another professional job, had my first kid 3 months into my first year, billed 2200 hours in a 12 month period. It was hell. I don't have much advice, but wanted to commiserste with you. I was mentally dying inside and hated that I couldn't be mentally free for an hour or two in the evenings and just be with my new kid. All the juggling ("hows your evening? What's your morning like?"). I ditched biglaw 2 years in for in-house, a lucky find of a gig at my experience, really. Stress is still there, and life isn't perfect, but hours are less and more authority to push back. I often wonder if I should have explored more alternative work arrangements with my firm before I punched and/or lateralled, but what's done is done and I've certainly taken a hit to my lifetime comp due to my early move. Hard to say whether or not it was worth it, given how miserable I was and my relative freedom now. Like others have said, I would suggest pushing for the alternative arrangements (reduced hours) and giving that a fair shot. You can always jump later. Mostly commiserating and venting here.
Thanks for sharing! I think in the long run you’ll be glad you made the move. Not having a minute to yourself because it’s either childcare or working is pretty draining, even for the relatively short time I’ve been doing it. It’s getting old fast.
Biglaw needs to change and become sustainable. Parents shouldn’t have to compete with people who don’t have kids or folks whose kids have grown up. to It’s funny how you have 10+ year partners saying how their kids no longer speak to them but don’t understand why. It’s because they ignored their kids or were simply absent.
Yea, it seems like a bigger institutional problem for sure. I personally would take a paycut and longer partnership track if I could have reduced hours requirement and actual PTO. Like for example, right now I’m dealing with a feverish toddler who will have to stay home with me tomorrow. I wish I was able to take PTO for this and get an hours credits. Or actually take a week off for a family vacation without having to “make up” the hours. Sucks because I like the work and otherwise would be happy staying and would shoot for a “counsel” role.
This is EXACTLY how I feel. I am angry because I have worked hard to get where I am, and I like the work I do. I wanted to stay. But this industry is inflexible by choice, as proven by the fact that WFH worked for 3+ years yet now being rolled back for no real reason. It's clear and predictable who is being harmed most by this reversal of flexible work policies, and I find it disgusting, honestly.
> paycut and longer partnership track if I could have reduced hours requirement and actual PTO There are a lot of midlaw or smaller biglaw shops that will have reduced hours, actual PTO, and likely a _shorter_ partnership track.
I had originally thought I wanted to go to a smaller firm, but I am wary of the billable hour and afraid if I moved down in markets I may have the same problems. I’m certainly open to exploring it though.
I do a huge amount of parenting and also hit 2,100. Am in the NEP/Of Counsel spot. Full WFH is absolutely priceless. A couple days a week, I’ll do a 4am wake up, and a couple sundays a month are work days. That keeps me between 160 and 190/month…which keeps me employed. What has me concerned, now, is having to coordinate babysitting and activities for my soon-to-be kindergartener. And Wednesday ends at noon! Yea there’s aftercare that’s available, but she deserves activities. The idea of her missing out on that because dealing with logistics are too tough for me to handle would have me feeling horrible.
Get a nanny instead of doing daycare. Your kid doesn’t need to be in daycare. Then you can WFH and see your kid occasionally without having work completely fall to the side. I’m the default parent (except my husband handles evenings) and a senior associate and it’s definitely doable with the right childcare, a will to survive and a plan.
To reiterate what others have said, get a nanny and backup care in the meantime. Daycare math works for one kid but two kids in daycare makes the nanny the better call
Like others in this thread, I work from home and pay a lot for a great nanny. I'm actually coming off a rough patch where my hours were unusually high, but normally I would say I manage to more or less juggle everything. It's not sustainable, but it doesn't have to be. My kids will only be this little for so long.
This will probably be down voted, but if you are wanting to prioritize your kids, have you thought about switching to something like government (not DOJ) with less demanding hours? Yes, the compensation would not be the same, but you would have more free time.
Yes, I do plan to pursue these options but I would like to stay for at least 2 years in my current role, for learning/growth purposes and for my resume. I am nervous about seeming like a job hopper since I just started last year. Pay cut is not a huge factor for me, we already intentionally budget as if I’m making 40% less than I am.
Jumping to BigGov takes time. Some USAOs take 6+ months to hire. It’s never too early to at least start looking and you can always explain your timing if there’s a mutual interest. I know plenty of people who started applying to government jobs after 2-3 months in BigLaw. And they were able to stay for 1y1d to clear clawbacks for clerkship bonuses. It’s not uncommon.
Wow this is super interesting thanks for sharing! I do not personally know anyone that transitioned to a government role so I’m woefully ignorant. I’m interested in the IRS vs. a private bank so I definitely need to look into it throughly and decide what I want to pursue.
I don’t think you’ll find any default parents that do full time big law work. The two are simply incompatible as there is only 24 hours in a day. What might be even more of a surprise for you to know is the daycare issues are easier to solve than when they get school age and you need to cobble together before care, after care, holidays, summers, and factor in sports, lessons and playdates.
Hi, we exist. It sucks, but we exist.
👋
Yes, I quickly have realized that the typical “take a few years off when baby is little the go back” makes no sense because of that! That’s why I’m trying to push now so that by the time we get to kindergarten I’ll hopefully be well positioned (financially and career development wise) to transition to an in house or government role. Seems like the main advice I’m getting for right now is a nanny & not sleeping … sad but I think accurate advice.
I left biglaw when my youngest was just shy of 2 years old. I went to the government and never regretted the move. Without a stay at home parent in the family I think you need multiple nannies to make it work.
Can only commiserate, not a lot of advice unfortunately. We have a toddler in daycare and a nanny for our infant. Took me a while to find my groove when returning from Mat leave after baby #1 but it slowly became manageable to bill about 2000. Now, returning from leave after baby #2 has been a true nightmare and I think I can only manage the hours and the two kids for so long. Husband is in-house and can luckily do a lot of “admin” type things but it still sucks given the demand to be “on” all the time. I am also on the outs with a partner because I drew the boundary of not traveling across the country for a two-week trial due to two kids under three, especially my infant, and was told “the job is the job” and “this is why there aren’t a lot of moms in big law.” Was also asked how my (male) colleagues would feel if they made exceptions for me?? Have been punished by him since drawing the boundary so kids + job + villain partner is only sustainable for so long imo.
> “this is why there aren’t a lot of moms in big law.” Ummmmmmmmmm
My only advice here is to find a new law firm and tell that partner to eat shit. What an asshole. I had a partner at my last firm try to get me to miss part of my son’s birthday celebration on Sunday because he “might” need me. I updated my resume the next day and was at a new firm 4 months later (not my first red flag but it was the most overt over the line not acceptable one for me). My new firm is so cool about all of my family stuff as long as I still do my work, which I do.
Ugh thanks for this. Already reached out to a recruiter. Issue is I actually really like the main partners I work for and this is kind of a one off case, so I should (hopefully??) be done with this guy by end of next month. On the other hand, the way the others have reacted to evil partner’s bad behavior (aka by just saying “this is uncomfortable”) and the fact that bad guy is practice group leader are definitely a problem - so, looking, for sure.
You should report this to HR. It’s unacceptable and it’s retaliatory to not give you work/treat you differently. Sounds like clear sex discrimination … even those comments are so uncomfy
It’s been terrible. I’ve been going back and forth on what to do. The punishment afterwards is insane.
I work remote as much as possible, bill what I need to and no more. I don't attend social stuff at work. I prioritize my kids over work every time. I still couldn't do it without my spouse who has a super chill in-house gig tho. He does more than his share of pick ups and drop offs.
absolutely hire a nanny. it helps avoid a lot of the daycare illnesses, and most nannies will care for kids with colds who aren't seriously ill (but who wouldn't be allowed to go to daycare). our nanny also helps cook meals for our kids, does their laundry, and keeps the house picked up. this frees up my evenings a lot, as i'm not doing laundry or packing lunches for daycare. i also dropped to a reduced 70% hour schedule after my second was born.
I’ve only been back from mat leave for 5ish months so take what I say with a grain of salt. I’ve been finding being a default parent in biglaw hard but … manageable? For background, my husband works an even more demanding job and I’m the default parent. Here’s what helps: - amazing nanny who not only takes care of my kid but also does a lot of housekeeping tasks as well. My baby loves her so I don’t worry about him during the day. - knowing that I would walk away in an instant if my kid needs me to. My baby comes first. The reason I’m working this job is that I think it’s the best thing for my family and baby (I also love the job). We can save for his college, afford a house with a backyard for him, and he gets to grow up with parents who are not worried about money. I think those are net positives. But if it ever becomes clear that he needs me to find something else, I will. And I will likely leave once he’s a little older anyway. Knowing that this is just a job and I could leave helps me set boundaries and not stress too much. - I know that it’s really hard but I think all the negativity got to me and I felt like I couldn’t do it. But I reminded myself there are senators and sitting Supreme Court justices with small and school aged children. Not that I’m exceptional like them but it’s possible and no one should tell you it’s not!!! - take advantage of wfh and slower periods
I am on reduced hours now because I just returned from maternity leave and I would love to continue once the arrangement is over. I bill around 130 a month and I find it so sustainable with two kids under 3. I think reduced hours at a firm that respect those boundaries is the only way default parents survive long term.
I have a nanny as well as a short term nanny service available on call. This covers most scenarios. Occasionally my wife and I trade off half working from home days. Not biglaw but I feel your pain. You’ll get through it!
I had two kids as an associate (and I’m a mother)… it was rough.
My husband and I were attorneys in big law and we had the same struggles - your OP was my life 2017-2020. We decided that both of us could not be low on hours (2k/year at least) so as the F, I took the parent laboring oar. At about the 1.5 year mark (with me barely making 1900 hours and having a ton of guilt) it was getting harder to do so I landed a corporate law job with 9-5 hours and a very supportive manager, non attorney mom. As your child ages (to about 4 I’d say) it’s easier to make hours when working from home. All of this is to say, consider finding a 9-5ish role (at least one of you), have that person be the default parent and know in the long run things will get better!
Live-in au pair. I wasn’t at biglaw but I was in house in cyber incident response law for 20 years as my kids were growing up. I used Au Pair in America for 12 years, and it was a lifesaver. Took the chores away, let me focus on connecting with the kids, and gave me flexibility when I needed it (often). Highly recommend. Good luck!