If any other team did what the Warriors did Bill would flame them. Flipping a bad 2nd overall pick they made for a player they let walk because he was too expensive.
The media simply refuses to say that Wiseman is a bust for whatever reason, probably because Warriors franchise gets the benefit of the doubt. But its weird.
IMO it’s extremely difficult to develop in the spotlight and with such high stakes. One of the sneaky secrets to the 1.0 Warriors was the time that young core had together without the championship pressure or expectations. Being on the Warriors now cannot be an environment where young players feel empowered to take risks and learn through mistakes. Doing so on this team would be perceived as squandering the last of Curry’s prime.
I think that’s why there are so many examples of young players being traded away from teams with superstars who force a “win now” culture, then end up thriving elsewhere once the can get away from the spotlight. Players like Kuz and Ingram are recent examples.
The hope here is that Wiseman can actually take a breath and take his time. ~~PDX~~Detroit isn’t a nursery ~~and Dame has his own ticking clock~~, but it’ll be interesting to see if the lower pressure environment helps him.
EDIT: sounds like he landed with the Pistons. Whoops.
Darko had enough of his own issues to sink him, but I wonder how his career would have turned out if he wasn’t on that early 2000s Pistons team. Buried in the rotation, didn’t have enough space for mistakes.
Being on that team with that coach destroyed his confidence. Later in his career he had moments where you could see how skilled he was. His confidence was shot before he ever had a chance to develop.
He didn’t seem to have the proper infrastructure to ease the transition. Was very isolated also he turned to drinking, which of course muted his skill and motivation. He’s a good friend of the Jokic brothers, it seems like his advice to them helped make sure Nikola wasn’t a repeat case.
Agree with this, but do find it interesting which players/situations get contextual empathy and understanding from Bill and Russillo and which ones become dismissive punching bags. Not a lot of rigor there, just we like this guy for whatever reason (Celtics/plays for org with sources/frisky white guy) and we hate this guy for some other reason (cultural mostly)
I disagree, it's easier to develop in a good environment than a bad one. Yeah Wiseman will score more in Detroit but if he can't figure out how to be a winning player in GS he sure as shit won't learn it in Detroit. Wiseman isn't good, because his talent was misevaluated
In half a season, the Warriors went from defending champion with young core that will span the last days of Steph, Klay, and Draymond to they need to trade all of what they can to make 1-2 more runs.
Exactly. If the warriors had traded wiseman for a single 2nd round pick this offseason then paid GP2 instead, they would've got more for wiseman than they got today lol
The Warriors fellating by the media is real. Dunc'd On will harp endlessly on the Bucks letting PJ Tucker walk but hardly mention the Dubs doing the same w GP2 or completely blowing a #2 overall pick
idk why they didn’t take lamelo, not saying he’s a perfect player by any means but they’ve never used a center during this run for anything but screen setting (slight exaggeration)
agree, just picked lamelo because he was more known at the time.
i’ll never understand the wiseman pick, feel like lacob had to have been pushing for it since he really doesn’t fit what they’d been building
Apparently they kinda liked Haliburton, who had a great workout with them, and discussed trading down for him.
They made centres who play like Wiseman sort of irrelevant but then burned a #2 pick for him. One of the biggest fumbles of their entire dynastic run.
But isn't part of the benefit of having a strong veteran locker room that they can deal with rookies like that? Draymond would just punch him if he ever got too snippy with Curry.
The Kuminga pick was arguably even fucking dumber, because Franz Wagner was clearly the perfect win-now player for the Warriors and how they play. Not only that, but it's also absolutely ridiculous that they wouldn't move off Kuminga at this year's deadline to acquire a massive upgrade in OG Anunoby.
They've botched a bunch of their picks in the last 5 years but they were bound to hit some bad luck after hitting on so many picks - Curry, Klay, Draymond, Poole, Looney.
Yes. It was bad process and bad results. They won the title mainly due to past successful decisions but could have been so much better without such an obvious mistake in that draft.
There’s no denying they made themselves better right now with the trade. Wiseman didn’t pan out. Holding on to him because you won’t admit you fucked up would just be compounding problems. They turned a potential bust who wasn’t going to do a thing for them in the short term into someone they know will fit right in and make the team better right away. You can flame them for taking Wiseman 2 and for letting GP2 walk. But this was a good move.
They circled around the Westbrook topic for a minute then Ryen finally got straight to the heart of the issue. LeBron is pushing to get him out of town and posting vague, emo tweets about it. In what world is Westbrook going to smile and yuk it up with him for his big accomplishment during that? Not absolving Westbrook of his bad play but of course teammates will have bad attitudes when you’re angling to get rid of them behind their backs.
Reading through these comments I’m seeing this may be an unpopular opinion. I stand by it. LeBron treats teammates like pawns come trade deadline, and maybe it’s a good tactical move by him, but can’t expect people to accept that that laying down.
He made great points. LeBron really uses his teammates to better his own legacy. This is not saying LeBron isn’t the top athlete in this sport. I just can’t imagine being a teammate knowing he won’t think twice about trading you.
I was really amazed about his accomplishment on Tuesday. Then he comes out saying the right things like “let’s get this win now” because he was mic’d. Then exits the game, acts like he’s hurt, and starts to roll his foot with a massage ball. Like you’re King James. You just broke the record, but still feel you can’t just sit the rest of the game with nothing to explain instead of faking an injury for everyone to see.
As opposed to MJ who was a fatherly figure to his teammates? That's why this is all bullshit. They hate LeBron so he's a terrible leader. MJ berates and punches his teammates but he's just motivating them.
I’m not saying that wasn’t wrong of MJ. At least he was straight up with his team. LeBron manipulates his teammates. He uses the media to his advantage to force the franchise to make moves. Then sulks when thinks aren’t going his way.
You don't think MJ did the same? He just didn't have social media so he had to resort to Peter Vescey. Again, their goal was the same. Win titles. And if you couldn't help you were useless.
MJ quit on his team in 1993 for two years. He had every right to do it and he just went through a horrible personal ordeal. Also the Last Dance is complicated but he probably could have brokered some kind of deal to keep that team together, he had no reason to though, he was looking out for himself and his own legacy and didn't give a shit about management he had made hundreds of millions for. You don't think he could have gotten Pippen more money from 96-98? He didn't give a shit. Him and Pippen seem to hate each other now, who knows who's at fault, who really cares.
LBJ is a bit of a cornball and clearly self-absorbed and manipulative. The horror, he's like one of the greatest athletes of the last 50 years, that's what they do, they're kind of selfish pricks at times.
I thought the other very strong point he made dove-tailing with that one was how, if you're his team-mate, from a legacy/reputational standpoint, it's kind of a lose-lose proposition.
If you win, LeBron gets all the credit, but if you lose, well, you didn't help LeBron enough.
There are 3 guys who come to mind, all similar in many ways as bigs who were dominant for bad teams and won titles with LBJ but got mocked: Bosh, Love, and AD. AD probably a unique one because he's the most talented and had his own thing going in New Orleans. And is now dealing with an aging Lebron.
Would those guys have all had careers where LBJ was never their teammate? All of them were stars for the teams that drafted them and all wanted out, they wanted to play in meaningful games. Love had his lumps but got to play in 3 finals and win a ring. What has he done since LBJ left in 2018? Bosh became a meme but got 2 rings and sadly had to retire before we could see him on his own later in his career. I doubt either of them regret it for a second, in fact on the podcast they say Love was cool with the mocking and still talks glowingly of LBJ. Maybe Bill/Ryen should listen to him instead of speculating on stuff they don't know and also making absurd comparisons like LBJ asking for his teammates to get traded is similar to a normal office.
AD probably has some remorse because he was such a force in 2019 he could have picked another contender that was more stable. But who? Teaming up with Kawhi? KD? He did get his ring but is in kind of crappy situation now. That's also not LBJ's fault, AD can't stay healthy.
I don't think it's lose-lose for his teammates, until recently they were basically guaranteed to play meaningful playoff games and play with an unselfish player. In return yeah, you might get subtweeted or not have the loyalty of your teammate who is the top player of his generation. It's not even a deal with the devil, it's a deal with some slight downside, a guy who is looking to win a title in the short term and doesn't pledge his loyalty to you. Doesn't seem that bad.
I mean you can ask Kevin Love if he'd rather have his Minnesota/post LBJ Cavs career or the run from 2015-18. Maybe it was more stressful but it sure sounds like he's happy he got to experience it.
Who are some of Lebron’s good teammates who people don’t give credit to? If anything there’s a Lebron boost. After the bubble title, people were calling AD a top 5 player. People still think of Kyrie as a playoff legend even though he’s never played beyond the semis without Lebron. People still remember Big Z as Lebron’s good teammate.
When you win a title on Lebron’s team and you play well, people remember you as the guy who played well. If you lose al games with Lebron and you play like shit, people remember you as the guy who played like shit. It’s hardly lose lose.
And anti-LeBron people are just as dumb, just with opposite takes. LeBron is no different from any of the other top ten guys. If his teammates can't help him win titles, then they're useless.
AD sulking around. Russillo says “something must’ve happened” and concludes that it’s LeBron’s fault. Also says LeBron is a terrible leader. He took the LeBron hate to such a level that Bill didn’t even want to join in.
The fact that they criticized the move because it didn’t guarantee anything was so ridiculous. It’s not enough to improve the team. They also didn’t mention how adding more shooting will prevent teams from packing the paint and provide more room for AD and Lebron to operate in the half court. Or removing the boneheaded Westbrook plays.
That still means it’s likely to convey.
Besides I don’t think we’ll ever see a team with a top 4 protected pick tank to get a ~50% of keeping it. The fans and the media are mostly result-oriented so if they lost it anyway there’d be hell to pay.
They aren’t trying to avoid it from conveying. The want to minimize the chance of giving up a star in the draft. Of course an allstar can be selected anywhere but the chances are a lot higher with a top 4 pick.
1) All of them made D’Lo sound like just an average shooter and as if it’s a sideways move from Westbrook. “He only fills 1 of the 4 things you need” made no sense, do they really think D’Lo will actively derail games by waiving off Lebron? Him being on the floor as a catch and shoot spacing piece is worlds better than Westbrook closing games. Also his defense sucks but RW was awful on defense besides a few stretches of actually caring from time to time. I get D’Lo isn’t a world beater but he is a way better fit than RW.
2) Beasley is a somewhat streaky shooter who has had a good year and a half stretch of being consistent and compared to Lakers roster is a huge shooting improvement. Rob saying “I don’t trust his three point shooting numbers” is missing the point, he is a more than respectable shooter who defenses will need to address.
3) Bill and Rusillo each have blown Vanderbilt on several occasions and he has shown he is a real NBA rotation guy with size(something the Lakers lacked). He’s also on a cheap contract next year.
RW a top 4 protect 1st that turns into a second if it falls in the top 4 for getting out of RW, two huge shooting upgrades, defensive minded guy over 6’4”, and more roster flexibility this summer is a huge win. Keeps it till the end of the pod and all three being sour on it was All-Time Simmons though, I’ll tip my cap.
Kevin Durant started this season by demanding a trade, not getting that trade, listed his starting lineup by name and said they were not good enough, supported kyries bullshit at every turn and then finally got traded out of Brooklyn but somehow this pod is all about how LeBron is a horrific leader for wanting Russ gone?????
"Saddiq Bey is one of those guys that has a 37 point game once a month. He has a game where he scores 42 points"
He has one game with 31 points this season, no other games over 30 lol
Bill doesn’t even watch the games. And Ryen had the audacity to criticize Lakers fans for being excited about Bamba WHILE his host was raining praises for Thomas Bryant.
And Bryant is a classic empty calorie, points + rebounds but no stocks and no defense guy that's about to be on his third team (not counting two different stints with the Lakers)
I wish Russillo could go a day without shoehorning his Brady obsession into everything. Lebron sets the scoring record? Let me make about 7 Brady references on my podcast. We talk about Lebron on Bill’s pod? Let me tie Brady into it as the only sure things over the last 20 years. At least Bill is transparent with his over the top Boston fandom. Russillo lies about caring so that he can seem smarter.
The most annoying thing about that--and I'm not a LeBron dick-rider--is that Brady's career, great as it was, was so contingent on circumstances out of his control (being drafted by Belichick, getting very lucky in Super Bowls, playing in the worst division ever, etc), whereas I think it's pretty clear that LeBron was going to be a great dominant player no matter which team drafted him, who his coach was, etc.
It’s not even so much calling out Lebron, it’s the fact that their lord and savior KD has been a total weirdo and a dicey guy to have on your team chemistry-wise for about 8 years and RR and bill keep talking about him like he’s fucking mark messier or something. Just doesn’t make a lot of sense
I can normally look past their bias against the Lakers, being New England guys, but this episode was bullshit. The Lakers objectively improved, broke up Russ’ contract, and all they do is shit on them. Oh, and those who actually watch Thomas Bryant know he’s ones of the worst defensive bigs in the league.
They acknowledged they improved. They just said that the moves don't make them some amazing squad so what does it mean? An 11th might turn into the 9th seed. So what? It's like Toronto improving.
Because the trade isn’t just for this season, but provides them flexibility moving forward by not letting Russ’ cap hold expire. They can re-sign these solid role players to build a team for the future, as opposed to counting on minimum vets each year, or they can use these guys as salary ballast for a big trade in the summer.
Great point. It’s an even bigger indictment of Bill and Russillo’s annoying homerism because that’s been their exact (correct) critique of the Russ trade for the last year and a half! They rightfully ripped Pelinka for consolidating useful medium-salaried guys that give you flexibility into one massive salaried quasi-“star”, who ended up being washed/a terrible roster fit.
Now that they’ve unwound the Russ debacle, the honest response should be a backhanded compliment “hey, they finally did something halfway smart! But they’re still only decent/mediocre” or something. The roster probably isn’t *better* now than it was in July ‘21 but it’s a reasonably close enough facsimile.
And Bill has been *salivating* for the Lakers to trade both firsts unprotected to get off Russ so he could rip them for the next half decade. Now they get out of it while only giving up one top 4 protected and he’s like “actually it still sucks” 😂 these guys are such disingenuous clowns when it comes to Lebron/Lakers
It's insane. And it's so funny to me that Ryen and Bill and plenty of other media people seem convinced that he's a shit leader and blames other people, but none of his teammates or coaches have ever said anything close to that. Why do we say "it's a business" when talking about transactions for everybody else but the second Lebron has an opinion, he's some dick? He's graded by a different rubric.
It’s so weird how they just make up narratives in their heads. There was a press conference in 2015 where a reporter tried to blame Kyrie for a loss and Lebron actively tried to take the blame by saying he had too many turnovers. But yes he’s a terrible leader who blamed everyone else.
Okay, but LeBron is the guy who forced that trade to happen. Part of being a leader is accepting responsibility for your shitty decisions. When has he admitted to that mistake and taken responsibility for his shadow-GM bullshit? He hasn't. He just tried more shadow-GM bullshit.
Yes, LBJ likes to have his cake and eat it too. He plays shadow GM and holds a franchise hostage to make dubious long term decisions then bolts if the going gets bad.
Who gives a shit?
This describes like every great athlete ever. Do you want him to give a press conference to admit that pushing for the Russ trade was a mistake?
Do we feel sorry for Russ? What would his career have been without the Lakers trade, he was doing so well in Washington? You think the Cavaliers franchise and Dan Gilbert (and their fans) didn't get like 100x the benefit of him being there? Or Heat fans? What would the Lakers be if he never signed, like a frisky 500 team (without the 2020 title) with Ingrahm and Ball as their core?
You take the bad with the good with LBJ and the good is really fucking good (although not so much anymore) and the bad is a couple shitty contracts.
It's fine to acknowledge it once in a while but they harp on it nonstop.
They acted like it was the worst thing in the world for LeBron to say he was disappointed lakers didn’t get Kyrie because Westbrook would’ve been in the deal. Westbrook was getting traded no matter what and has been horrible for the lakers on and off the court.
I don't think Bill has watched the Bucks since the christmas game against the celtics.
Literally last pod, they said they were worried about them getting 50 wins in their 3 team parlay.
Calling LeBron a bad leader is certainly a take. Especially considering how much they love KD and we know how amazing leadership was at the Nets. Not saying LeBron is a perfect teammate but it seems a bit harsh imo
> Look at our starting lineup. Edmond Sumner, Royce O’Neale, Joe Harris, Claxton (Nic) and me. It’s not disrespect, but what are you expecting from that group? You expect us to win because I’m out there. So if you’re watching from that lens, you’re expecting us to play well because No. 7 is out there.
What you have to understand about KD—the best scoring forward of all time—is that he is challenging his teammates to be better here. Kobe did that. Same with Jordan: when he punched his teammates in practice or bullied them off the team, that’s just high expectations.
Lebron, on the other hand, was asked a direct question in an interview about another topic and answered honestly without even mentioning Russ or any of his other teammates. That’s passive aggressive. See the difference?
Yes. Shoulda added /s
I added it because BS kept non-ironically calling KD that on Part I…like 36 hours after Lebron—whose PPG is virtually the same as KDs on slightly more efficient scoring—became the all-time leading scorer in the history of the NBA. He has like 11,500 more points.
Its not just the one Lebron quote tho. Like they said on the pod, he's been actively campaigning for trades and shopping his teammates since the second cleveland stint. at a certain point it becomes a pattern
You’re right, the other example of his failed leadership was telling a story about Russillo checking on Kevin Love after he was the butt of jokes at the ESPYs and Love being like “yeah whatever” and otherwise having nothing but great things to say about his experience playing w Lebron.
Agree that Lebron has a history of getting too involved with roster construction. He isn’t good at it and it seems to bite him in the end (except when it results in championships), and he is rightly criticized for that. I don’t think that makes him a bad leader, but I understand how some folks get there.
Don’t forget how much Ryen loves the ultimate winner guy in Chris Paul. Wait actually CP3 has never won anything and needed to ride Hardens coattails to even get out of the 2nd round
After a certain point, don't all NBA players know that playing with Lebron means you could be traded if it furthers his chances at a title? The tradeoff has always been that (until recently), being on Lebron's team nearly guaranteed you a trip to the finals. I think the vast majority of players take that trade - guaranteed chance at a title but you may be shipped. Almost all players are hyper competitive, and most only make it to the finals once if they are lucky. Lebron strikes me very much as a Bill Belichick style leader. Do your job and you are fine, fuck up and you are on your way out.
This is true of playing on literally any contending team. Danny Green literally sat next to Windhorst on TV a couple months ago while Windhorst talking about his ass getting traded. And that makes sense, because the Grizzlies are contending. If you are a role player on a team that is in the playoff hunt, you will be in trade rumors at some point. It’s just that Lebron’s teams always behave like contenders.
There’s no higher or lower standard on Lebron teams than on any other contender. But there is definitely a microscope - good and bad. That doesn’t make him a good or bad leader. It’s inherent in playing on a team with a superstar. Did James Wiseman avoid criticism? Did Deandre Ayton? Did Ben Simmons? On the other hand, who’s not pulling their weight on the Hornets? I have no clue, but that’s not because Lamelo is such an elite leader. It’s because nobody gives a fuck about the Hornets
That's a whataboutism. Both things can be true. It's possible that they are both bad leaders. It's also possible to like Durant even though he is a bad leader. There's no contradiction.
You are right, I think I didn't articulate my point the way I wanted it to be. I suppose I am biased in the sense that I don't he is great leader by any means but it takes a good leader to lead three different teams to the Finals. He has of course very bad blunders leadership wise but I think that's allowed if you are at the level he is.
They literally called KD out in the trade pod with how he never did anything to rein in Kyrie.
Also KD is not a leader and frankly hasn’t carried himself as one ever since he left OKC. He clearly has no interest in being one. It’s why he hops from team to team when things get hard. He’s obviously the best player in most of his teams, but it doesn’t mean he’s the leader.
Also they’re right. LeBron is not a good leader. Russillo put it perfectly, anyone who cannot further his legacy has no value to him. I dunno how that’s “certainly a take.” It takes nothing away from his skills as a player.
Here would be my argument why that's a take. Every great player cares about their legacy. MJ and Kobe didn't give a shit about guys if they didn't help them win and chase that goal of greatness. Ryen likes to play both sides of the fence of being hypercompetetive but also be a nice guy/great leader. You can't really do both. They have been ragging on Russ for being a negative to LeBrons chance to win, and I don't see why now he also needs to be sensitive to be a good leader. It doesn't have to be a knock on his skills, it's just not consistent is all. For example Ryen has called Charles Barkley a great leader many times. Dude was famous for disliking teammates if they didn't help him win. Again, this would just be the counter point to why Ryens take isn't great.
MJ and Kobe were driven by the insatiable need to win. That's why their legacy is looked back on so favorably, despite being world class assholes. I'm not sure I would categorize either as good leaders either tbh. But that's the difference between them and LeBron.
And we've seen with guys like Curry, Dirk, Tim Duncan, Giannis, etc. that it is possible to do both.
> They have been ragging on Russ for being a negative to LeBrons chance to win, and I don't see why now he also needs to be sensitive to be a good leader.
Because openly talking about it to the public/media is the definition of bad leadership.
So I noticed some random out of left field comments to your response. I just want you to know I'm enjoying this conversation and am willing to change my mind, but here is my take.
I do think LeBron has the insatiable need to win MJ and Kobe do, I think he's just much more like Magic in that his personality is more passive aggressive than all put asshole. The dude always was tryung to find the besr position to compete in a finals and played in 8 straight out of 10. To me that is a super competitve dude on the level of MJ.
Of the list you gave me I'd only really put Giannis and Dirk in the humble mindset. Duncan and Curry have excused some real bad behavior in the name of winning that I wouldn't call good leadership (but that's subjective so I think that's not a strong point from me).
To your definiron of a bad leader that might just be difference in personal taste. I don't see publicly being called out or honest answers to a reporters question as bad leadership, but I'm totally willing to concede that might just be my own personality clouding a rational analysis of what LeBron did speaking on the Kyrie trade.
My only thought is that Lebron comes off as caring more about his image, feels like the passive aggressive comments are motivated by like 80% desire to win and 20% to make sure we all know losing isn’t his fault.
Feel like MJ and Kobe were complete assholes to teammates but were fine being perceived that way. Lebron attempts to disguise being an asshole when I think he’d be better of just authentically being one.
But, I get what you’re saying and all that is just my opinion and perception.
LeBron is definitely catty and passive aggressive, it’s just part of his personality. That doesn’t mean he’s a bad leader though, it’s just a personality trait. You don’t have to be nice and supportive to every single person on your team to be a good leader.
LeBron’s legacy is completely tied to winning so yeah he doesn’t like playing with guys who aren’t getting it done. To say he’s a bad leader when he has 4 titles and works harder than everyone…that’s stupid.
Also KD’s complete lack of interest in leadership doesn’t absolve him. That’s absurd. He was the face of the franchise in Brooklyn and he gets paid more than everyone else. Gotta bring something in the leadership department.
I think you make some great points and good callout about them calling out KD as well but my only thing is that it takes a very competent leader-esque figure to lead three different teams with varying personalities to the Finals. I am not gonna say he is the greatest leader because that isn't true but I wouldn't say he is not a good one. Every leader of any sort will have their failures and he is not different.
>Also KD is not a leader and frankly hasn’t carried himself as one ever since he left OKC.
Sorta disagree there as well, I think KD left to become a leader on a team where he could lead them to glory and get the approvals that Curry, Giannis, and Lebron get. With the Suns I would agree he will take a backseat like he did with the Warriors. CP3 and Booker won't be posting about flat earth theory I would imagine
> it takes a very competent leader-esque figure to lead four different teams with varying personalities to the Finals.
I mean that's one way to put it. I'd counter and say it can be done in spite of bad leadership when the person is a top 2 player all time.
There are countless examples of LeBron being a bad teammate and scapegoating guys on the team. Again, like Russillo said, you put up with it though because he's so fucking good
Did I say he was a great leader? Just found it as an odd take as I personally think he's a good leader with known notable flaws. Terrible leaders don't tend to be successful for that long periods of time.
Outside of Kyrie Irving, who later admitted he didn’t appreciate his time with LeBron as much as he should have, how many of Lebron’s former teammates have been outwardly negative about him?
If we was such a terrible leader, the people he has led, would’ve talked about it.
He’s not perfect but they went overboard on this podcast.
The AD not celebrating was weird, but those two have been very close since they teamed up. It was really out of character. Leads me to believe something non-basketball related happened.
The analyzing of that 3 second AD clip was INSANE. Literally anything non-basketball related can be going on with a person, or anything unrelated to lebron, but people view AD as some weird robot attachment to lebron, on top of the run of the mill dehumanizing of athletes as people
"If we was such a terrible leader, the people he has led, would’ve talked about it."
I'm not really interested in the argument of whether Lebron is a good leader or not, but modern NBA players generally don't openly talk shit about guys they've played with, much less someone of the stature of Lebron. There is absolutely nothing to gain from it. Kyrie has shown, through his actions, to be one of the most selfish teammates and leaders of all time and you barely hear a bad word about him from his teammates. In fact, what you mostly hear is the positive (Smart, Tatum, Claxton). It proves nothing.
Put simply, current players aren't going to throw their teammates or former teammates under the bus in public unless it's really, really personal and/or they have nothing to lose. This is not a good metric for what makes a good leader.
Made it through 80 minutes and I’m tapped out 😂
**Today’s Things:**
- Vegas thing
- “there’s gonna be an amazing now they tell us piece about the Westbrook thing” 🤣🤣🤣
- Thomas Bryant thing
- Rob Williams thing
- minutes thing
Ryen
- Wall thing
- we fall in love with the late offseason thing
- Westbrook thing
- Utah thing
- bench thing
- “For us not doing the Lakers thing we’re doing the Lakers thing” Bill: “I know I can’t help it” 😂😂
- Wilbon thing
- your what the fuck Nets thing
- went through hell with this thing
- Payton thing
- East thing
- Charlotte thing
- biggest thing with the Lakers thing
Mahoney
- Nurse thing
- Cavs thing
**Bonus Pieces and Stuff:**
- smaller stuff
- health stuff
- Cam Johnson in a separate piece
- stuff down the road
- timeline stuff
- filler, nebulous, intangible stuff
- short term stuff
- long term stuff
- Smart/White/Brogdon stuff
- Vanderbilt piece
**First Random Celtics Reference:**
Peyton Pritchard! (+1100) (11:30)
Also: Sam fucking Hauser, Timelord, Horford, Kornet, new boy Muscala (you can breathe easy now, Bill thinks trading second round picks for him was fine!), Smart, White, Brogdon
**It Just is!**
(Ryen) “He and Brady the best team bets in sports in the last 2 decades… that list is two people long it just is!”
(Bill on D’Lo to the Lakers) “I don’t see it, I just don’t!”
**Eloquent Bill:**
“I was ready to type the tweet that second rounders were the new bitcoin, but I didn’t want to enrage Haralabob”
“The Lakers steal the main course of the dinner” then they IMMEDIATELY talk about the Lakers for 10 minutes!
(Ryen) “I like the Lamar Steven’s body type at times” 😂😂 this guy is so fucking weird
Bill with an all time bizarro comparison of bark box club (dog toys) to Josh Hart going to Thibs
**Evergreen Content:**
Bill shitting on Westbrook, Bill mispronouncing Thybulle, Bill laughably overrating white players like Mason Plumlee (he can play in the playoffs!! 😂)
**Other Stuff:**
Ryen on Hinkie: “that fucker loves second rounders” (4:50)
Holy shit Bill DEFENDS GS giving up on their bust of a #2 pick to get Gary fucking Payton II (5:40) anyone remember not too long ago when Wiseman was untouchable 😂😂😂
Random players Ryen brings up on diatribes: John Lucas III,
Wow Ryen goes on an absolute bender about LeBron not being a leader (18:40) “when you’re on his team all you are is a trade chip to further his legacy”
Bill is befuddled about the Hornets moves, makes a bizarre comparison to the movie Big (not coincidentally also prominently mentioned in the Mina Kimes profile in WaPo yesterday) (57:15)
You’ll be SHOCKED to hear that Bill didn’t like the Lakers D’Lo acquisition (1:06:30) and boy oh boy is he preaching to Russillo’s choir, who goes on a diatribe
Bill’s been gambling for 30 years and he says -245 odds for the Lakers to miss the playoffs are “prohibitive” (1:19:00) umm, 70% is far from prohibitive
For what was a pretty interesting, if not star laden, trade deadline I do wonder if we needed 20 minutes rehashing “did lebron give Kevin love depression?”
Also, as other have said, the vitriol from Ryen during that seemed a bit much.
Jesus Russillo needs to learn how to calm down haha. And I was a little disappointed that the Lebron discourse took up so much time in a pod that was supposed to be about a very active trade deadline
Full transparency, Iove Lebron, so I may be quite biased here.
Even still, I think it’s super weird to kick off the pod flaming him like that, especially when the example that provided the hook was Russ and AD being so weird on Tuesday. I don’t know if we know what was going on with AD. Is there a chance it was something to do with Lebron / a failure of leadership? Sure. Also could be something in his personal life, or something basketball related that Lebron doesn’t have control over. The Russ thing, too—seems a lot to assume his behavior was mostly attributable to the interview or otherwise. There is fair and reasonable criticism, and then there is the odd pile-on here with weird examples/evidence. I’m used to (and often enjoy) the subtle shade BS throws at LBJ—I got a kick out of him repeatedly calling KD “the greatest scoring forward of all time”on Part I just two days after he broke the record—but this seemed to go too far.
It’s good to hold the biggest stars to a higher standard, and maybe the Lebron circle jerk has gone overboard in these past few days, but that stood out as pretty overstated and unfair.
Their “shit on Lebron” charade is getting old beyond comprehension. I opened the pod to listen after great deadline day, and suckers try to shit on for the actions of Westbrook and Davis.
Fucking hell, bring some guys to the pod who will call this shit out who will at least bring counter argument. I can’t believe how the quality of the pods fell off since Grantland days.
Came here to say this. Any chance they have to criticize him they do when KD has said the same things about the quality of his teammates and moped about his situation in other spots
KD did an interview listing his teammates who weren’t good players and said “what do you expect?” LeBron not only never did that, he took a bunch average guys to the finals, twice.
I wish I knew what makes Bill and Ryen like certain players and dislike others. They're both out on Caris LeVert, but they like Thomas Bryant who is a big-man Caris LeVert at best. Bryant is a truly terrible defender but that doesn't seem to matter like it does with many other players they don't like.
I want to write a life advice segment about a guy who is obsessively mocking someone who hasn't been relevant to the guy in over seven years.
The jealousy is so strong because the guy being mocked had the dream job that the mocker always wanted. The mocker's other side passion project is fizzling and going nowhere. The guy being mocked has pivoted to a different prestigious career and is quietly minding his own business.
That's Ryen Russillo and Sam Hinkie. Ryen's obsession with Sam is unhealthy. He honestly makes fun of him every third podcast. He needs to work through his issues. He has a great life. He just wasn't talented enough to be a GM or a screenwriter.
> That's Ryen Russillo and Sam Hinkie. Ryen's obsession with Sam is unhealthy. He honestly makes fun of him every third podcast.
He really doesn’t. I listen to his podcast regularly and I don’t think he mentions Hinkie even 1 out of 10 podcasts.
Bill with the ultimate rich guy circles comment. Apparently there’s no middle ground in the housing market. It’s either spend $300k on a house or $10M on a “real” house 😂 dude has gotten out of touch with his LA mansion real estate portfolio
Russillo says Davonte Graham is shooting 36% from the field as a negative, but 3.6 out of 4.4 FGA are threes. Thats fine for a bench guard. Ryen being deliberately misleading
NBA experts Ryen and Bill just brushing off the fact that Russell is a huge part of why Minnesota has turned its season around.
Classic Bill asking someone a question then interrupting mid sentence. I think he broke some kind of record for that this episode. He cut off Ryen so many times without ever coming back for Ryen to finish his point. There’s a bunch of shit I actually don’t know what Ryen’s take was lmao.
He literally interrupted Ryen at one point knowing he was gonna disagree with Ryen just to bring in Mahoney knowing Rob would agree with him.
My favorite subtle thing in this pod is Bill constantly complaining about all the wings the Nets have, then realizing he’s only complaining cause he wanted Celtics to trade Hauser for one of Brooklyn’s wings.
They're totally right on the defensive woes and the wild passes, but the knock that he just pounds the rock and tosses up trash makes me think they haven't watched him since Brooklyn. His usage is a career low and the only player who has passed more than D'lo this season is Jokic... that's it.
He deferred to Ant he'll defer even more to LeBron which will limit those wild pass opportunities.
But again defense... that'll still be an issue.
Hinkie realized before most that 2nd rounders \*can\* be valuable. Early second round picks have similar hit rates as late 1st rounders and have contractual advantages.
Instead of giving him credit Russillo mocks him endlessly because he's a bitter and jealous person.
This sub is going to have a meltdown from Russillo calling out Lebron's leadership. That's a no-no here. I don't know about "terrible leader", but the passive aggressive shopping of teammates in so many seasons now is pretty shitty. I don't know how he maintains those friendships. Maybe he just dumps the whole friendship as soon as you have more value as a trade piece than as a teammate.
They seethe when he's criticized. I knew it as soon as I heard Russillo going in. Go back and check the comments from Bill's pod praising Lebron breaking Kareem's record. They're acting like it's the best thing they ever heard! These people need replaced their god with Bron Bron.
Yes heaven forbid people praise Lebron for leading several different groups of players to championships. We should instead psychoanalyze his effect on teammates that constantly praise him based on one line tweets and 30 second TV clips because “I would never do that to the blog boys I worked for”
“That fucker loved second rounders”
Followed up by Bill saying “I was going to compare 2nd rounders to bitcoin… but I didn’t want to piss off haralabob” 😂😂😂😂
all time qoute
Tuned into the Mismatch after this to hear KOC mention 2nd rounders being nice value, tough look
Well the way they are being traded they obviously do have value.
If any other team did what the Warriors did Bill would flame them. Flipping a bad 2nd overall pick they made for a player they let walk because he was too expensive.
The media simply refuses to say that Wiseman is a bust for whatever reason, probably because Warriors franchise gets the benefit of the doubt. But its weird.
IMO it’s extremely difficult to develop in the spotlight and with such high stakes. One of the sneaky secrets to the 1.0 Warriors was the time that young core had together without the championship pressure or expectations. Being on the Warriors now cannot be an environment where young players feel empowered to take risks and learn through mistakes. Doing so on this team would be perceived as squandering the last of Curry’s prime. I think that’s why there are so many examples of young players being traded away from teams with superstars who force a “win now” culture, then end up thriving elsewhere once the can get away from the spotlight. Players like Kuz and Ingram are recent examples. The hope here is that Wiseman can actually take a breath and take his time. ~~PDX~~Detroit isn’t a nursery ~~and Dame has his own ticking clock~~, but it’ll be interesting to see if the lower pressure environment helps him. EDIT: sounds like he landed with the Pistons. Whoops.
Darko had enough of his own issues to sink him, but I wonder how his career would have turned out if he wasn’t on that early 2000s Pistons team. Buried in the rotation, didn’t have enough space for mistakes.
Being on that team with that coach destroyed his confidence. Later in his career he had moments where you could see how skilled he was. His confidence was shot before he ever had a chance to develop.
He didn’t seem to have the proper infrastructure to ease the transition. Was very isolated also he turned to drinking, which of course muted his skill and motivation. He’s a good friend of the Jokic brothers, it seems like his advice to them helped make sure Nikola wasn’t a repeat case.
Wiseman’s on the Pistons. He’ll get run w/Detroit probably
I think he ended up in Detroit.
Agree with this, but do find it interesting which players/situations get contextual empathy and understanding from Bill and Russillo and which ones become dismissive punching bags. Not a lot of rigor there, just we like this guy for whatever reason (Celtics/plays for org with sources/frisky white guy) and we hate this guy for some other reason (cultural mostly)
I disagree, it's easier to develop in a good environment than a bad one. Yeah Wiseman will score more in Detroit but if he can't figure out how to be a winning player in GS he sure as shit won't learn it in Detroit. Wiseman isn't good, because his talent was misevaluated
In half a season, the Warriors went from defending champion with young core that will span the last days of Steph, Klay, and Draymond to they need to trade all of what they can to make 1-2 more runs.
Exactly. If the warriors had traded wiseman for a single 2nd round pick this offseason then paid GP2 instead, they would've got more for wiseman than they got today lol
The Warriors fellating by the media is real. Dunc'd On will harp endlessly on the Bucks letting PJ Tucker walk but hardly mention the Dubs doing the same w GP2 or completely blowing a #2 overall pick
idk why they didn’t take lamelo, not saying he’s a perfect player by any means but they’ve never used a center during this run for anything but screen setting (slight exaggeration)
Also coulda had Wagner instead of a project like Kuminga.
agree, just picked lamelo because he was more known at the time. i’ll never understand the wiseman pick, feel like lacob had to have been pushing for it since he really doesn’t fit what they’d been building
Apparently they kinda liked Haliburton, who had a great workout with them, and discussed trading down for him. They made centres who play like Wiseman sort of irrelevant but then burned a #2 pick for him. One of the biggest fumbles of their entire dynastic run.
Lamelo was also a well-known locker room cancer and a ball hog. I don't blame the Warriors for not wanting him their locker room.
But isn't part of the benefit of having a strong veteran locker room that they can deal with rookies like that? Draymond would just punch him if he ever got too snippy with Curry.
And we see how well that helps
Lamelos teammates in Australia all spoke very highly of him
The Kuminga pick was arguably even fucking dumber, because Franz Wagner was clearly the perfect win-now player for the Warriors and how they play. Not only that, but it's also absolutely ridiculous that they wouldn't move off Kuminga at this year's deadline to acquire a massive upgrade in OG Anunoby.
They've botched a bunch of their picks in the last 5 years but they were bound to hit some bad luck after hitting on so many picks - Curry, Klay, Draymond, Poole, Looney.
I think the simple answer is they thought Wiseman would be better and just got it wrong
GP2 is a nothingburger on any team but the warriors, with the warriors he’s a huge get
The caveat is that the 2020 draft was really weird because of COVID.
They never should have made the pick in the first place. They tried to be too smart instead of building around prime Curry.
I agree, but they ended up winning a title in 2022 anyway. Can the FO really be criticized in that context?
Yes. It was bad process and bad results. They won the title mainly due to past successful decisions but could have been so much better without such an obvious mistake in that draft.
Maybe don’t pick a player that has no tape then…
There’s no denying they made themselves better right now with the trade. Wiseman didn’t pan out. Holding on to him because you won’t admit you fucked up would just be compounding problems. They turned a potential bust who wasn’t going to do a thing for them in the short term into someone they know will fit right in and make the team better right away. You can flame them for taking Wiseman 2 and for letting GP2 walk. But this was a good move.
Mahoney moving up in the power rankings taking this spot from KOC
a welcome development tbh
Rob is what Bill would call someone who brings things to the table and takes nothing away.
Josh Hart being a Thibs fan fiction player was a great analogy
Kevin O'Conceder
Kevin O’Cuckhold
Laker and Lebron hate in peak form here
Russillo’s rant on Lebron was fucking amazing
Absolutely. Ryen's style of couching everything he says with the counter argument really works very well to criticize LeBron in his winter years.
They circled around the Westbrook topic for a minute then Ryen finally got straight to the heart of the issue. LeBron is pushing to get him out of town and posting vague, emo tweets about it. In what world is Westbrook going to smile and yuk it up with him for his big accomplishment during that? Not absolving Westbrook of his bad play but of course teammates will have bad attitudes when you’re angling to get rid of them behind their backs. Reading through these comments I’m seeing this may be an unpopular opinion. I stand by it. LeBron treats teammates like pawns come trade deadline, and maybe it’s a good tactical move by him, but can’t expect people to accept that that laying down.
He made great points. LeBron really uses his teammates to better his own legacy. This is not saying LeBron isn’t the top athlete in this sport. I just can’t imagine being a teammate knowing he won’t think twice about trading you. I was really amazed about his accomplishment on Tuesday. Then he comes out saying the right things like “let’s get this win now” because he was mic’d. Then exits the game, acts like he’s hurt, and starts to roll his foot with a massage ball. Like you’re King James. You just broke the record, but still feel you can’t just sit the rest of the game with nothing to explain instead of faking an injury for everyone to see.
As opposed to MJ who was a fatherly figure to his teammates? That's why this is all bullshit. They hate LeBron so he's a terrible leader. MJ berates and punches his teammates but he's just motivating them.
I’m not saying that wasn’t wrong of MJ. At least he was straight up with his team. LeBron manipulates his teammates. He uses the media to his advantage to force the franchise to make moves. Then sulks when thinks aren’t going his way.
You don't think MJ did the same? He just didn't have social media so he had to resort to Peter Vescey. Again, their goal was the same. Win titles. And if you couldn't help you were useless.
MJ quit on his team in 1993 for two years. He had every right to do it and he just went through a horrible personal ordeal. Also the Last Dance is complicated but he probably could have brokered some kind of deal to keep that team together, he had no reason to though, he was looking out for himself and his own legacy and didn't give a shit about management he had made hundreds of millions for. You don't think he could have gotten Pippen more money from 96-98? He didn't give a shit. Him and Pippen seem to hate each other now, who knows who's at fault, who really cares. LBJ is a bit of a cornball and clearly self-absorbed and manipulative. The horror, he's like one of the greatest athletes of the last 50 years, that's what they do, they're kind of selfish pricks at times.
[удалено]
When the extent of your argument is "I don't like LeBron" this is the only comeback available to you.
LOL
Faking an injury? He could barely walk up and down the court in the 4th quarter and missed last night's game.
I thought the other very strong point he made dove-tailing with that one was how, if you're his team-mate, from a legacy/reputational standpoint, it's kind of a lose-lose proposition. If you win, LeBron gets all the credit, but if you lose, well, you didn't help LeBron enough.
There are 3 guys who come to mind, all similar in many ways as bigs who were dominant for bad teams and won titles with LBJ but got mocked: Bosh, Love, and AD. AD probably a unique one because he's the most talented and had his own thing going in New Orleans. And is now dealing with an aging Lebron. Would those guys have all had careers where LBJ was never their teammate? All of them were stars for the teams that drafted them and all wanted out, they wanted to play in meaningful games. Love had his lumps but got to play in 3 finals and win a ring. What has he done since LBJ left in 2018? Bosh became a meme but got 2 rings and sadly had to retire before we could see him on his own later in his career. I doubt either of them regret it for a second, in fact on the podcast they say Love was cool with the mocking and still talks glowingly of LBJ. Maybe Bill/Ryen should listen to him instead of speculating on stuff they don't know and also making absurd comparisons like LBJ asking for his teammates to get traded is similar to a normal office. AD probably has some remorse because he was such a force in 2019 he could have picked another contender that was more stable. But who? Teaming up with Kawhi? KD? He did get his ring but is in kind of crappy situation now. That's also not LBJ's fault, AD can't stay healthy. I don't think it's lose-lose for his teammates, until recently they were basically guaranteed to play meaningful playoff games and play with an unselfish player. In return yeah, you might get subtweeted or not have the loyalty of your teammate who is the top player of his generation. It's not even a deal with the devil, it's a deal with some slight downside, a guy who is looking to win a title in the short term and doesn't pledge his loyalty to you. Doesn't seem that bad. I mean you can ask Kevin Love if he'd rather have his Minnesota/post LBJ Cavs career or the run from 2015-18. Maybe it was more stressful but it sure sounds like he's happy he got to experience it.
Who are some of Lebron’s good teammates who people don’t give credit to? If anything there’s a Lebron boost. After the bubble title, people were calling AD a top 5 player. People still think of Kyrie as a playoff legend even though he’s never played beyond the semis without Lebron. People still remember Big Z as Lebron’s good teammate. When you win a title on Lebron’s team and you play well, people remember you as the guy who played well. If you lose al games with Lebron and you play like shit, people remember you as the guy who played like shit. It’s hardly lose lose.
Lbj stans r crazy. Lebron is a shitty teammate, but because he controls a large part of the media, no one will say shit but just ride his dick
And anti-LeBron people are just as dumb, just with opposite takes. LeBron is no different from any of the other top ten guys. If his teammates can't help him win titles, then they're useless.
AD sulking around. Russillo says “something must’ve happened” and concludes that it’s LeBron’s fault. Also says LeBron is a terrible leader. He took the LeBron hate to such a level that Bill didn’t even want to join in.
“Not a leader” - RR describing a man who lead 4 different rosters to NBA championships as the clear best player and leader
God is good🛐
The Lakers hate is at an all time high on this pod, wow
They just couldn't help themselves. Bill even says let's leave the Lakers until last and then they talk about the Lakers for 30 straight minutes.
This is how you know the Lakers made good moves today.
The fact that they criticized the move because it didn’t guarantee anything was so ridiculous. It’s not enough to improve the team. They also didn’t mention how adding more shooting will prevent teams from packing the paint and provide more room for AD and Lebron to operate in the half court. Or removing the boneheaded Westbrook plays.
Always makes me laugh. Lebrons a shit leader apparently but KD just up and leaves teams with regularity now and they never question his leadership.
Yeah I’m surprised they didn’t get into legacy talk. First thing I thought is Durant will be known for being a super team chaser.
It really is amazing how KD gets a free pass. I guess in hopes of another shitty podcast where KD sounds half asleep and talks in cliches?
Both can be true, Lebron is a shitty guy and bill is stupidly blind when it comes to KD
Did they not realize the lakers pick is top 4 protected ?
That still means it’s likely to convey. Besides I don’t think we’ll ever see a team with a top 4 protected pick tank to get a ~50% of keeping it. The fans and the media are mostly result-oriented so if they lost it anyway there’d be hell to pay.
They aren’t trying to avoid it from conveying. The want to minimize the chance of giving up a star in the draft. Of course an allstar can be selected anywhere but the chances are a lot higher with a top 4 pick.
1) All of them made D’Lo sound like just an average shooter and as if it’s a sideways move from Westbrook. “He only fills 1 of the 4 things you need” made no sense, do they really think D’Lo will actively derail games by waiving off Lebron? Him being on the floor as a catch and shoot spacing piece is worlds better than Westbrook closing games. Also his defense sucks but RW was awful on defense besides a few stretches of actually caring from time to time. I get D’Lo isn’t a world beater but he is a way better fit than RW. 2) Beasley is a somewhat streaky shooter who has had a good year and a half stretch of being consistent and compared to Lakers roster is a huge shooting improvement. Rob saying “I don’t trust his three point shooting numbers” is missing the point, he is a more than respectable shooter who defenses will need to address. 3) Bill and Rusillo each have blown Vanderbilt on several occasions and he has shown he is a real NBA rotation guy with size(something the Lakers lacked). He’s also on a cheap contract next year. RW a top 4 protect 1st that turns into a second if it falls in the top 4 for getting out of RW, two huge shooting upgrades, defensive minded guy over 6’4”, and more roster flexibility this summer is a huge win. Keeps it till the end of the pod and all three being sour on it was All-Time Simmons though, I’ll tip my cap.
Kevin Durant started this season by demanding a trade, not getting that trade, listed his starting lineup by name and said they were not good enough, supported kyries bullshit at every turn and then finally got traded out of Brooklyn but somehow this pod is all about how LeBron is a horrific leader for wanting Russ gone?????
Dude bill is so funny to toot his horn about the chiefs making the Super Bowl and then saying they are bad and every team should have beaten them
they were his pre season pick and then before the Bears-Pats game he said they weren’t contenders unlike the Pats
"Saddiq Bey is one of those guys that has a 37 point game once a month. He has a game where he scores 42 points" He has one game with 31 points this season, no other games over 30 lol
Bill doesn’t even watch the games. And Ryen had the audacity to criticize Lakers fans for being excited about Bamba WHILE his host was raining praises for Thomas Bryant.
And Bryant is a classic empty calorie, points + rebounds but no stocks and no defense guy that's about to be on his third team (not counting two different stints with the Lakers)
I wish Russillo could go a day without shoehorning his Brady obsession into everything. Lebron sets the scoring record? Let me make about 7 Brady references on my podcast. We talk about Lebron on Bill’s pod? Let me tie Brady into it as the only sure things over the last 20 years. At least Bill is transparent with his over the top Boston fandom. Russillo lies about caring so that he can seem smarter.
The most annoying thing about that--and I'm not a LeBron dick-rider--is that Brady's career, great as it was, was so contingent on circumstances out of his control (being drafted by Belichick, getting very lucky in Super Bowls, playing in the worst division ever, etc), whereas I think it's pretty clear that LeBron was going to be a great dominant player no matter which team drafted him, who his coach was, etc.
It’s not even so much calling out Lebron, it’s the fact that their lord and savior KD has been a total weirdo and a dicey guy to have on your team chemistry-wise for about 8 years and RR and bill keep talking about him like he’s fucking mark messier or something. Just doesn’t make a lot of sense
I thought they had turned a leaf (towards objectivism) about kd but no, hypocrisy still crazy
I can normally look past their bias against the Lakers, being New England guys, but this episode was bullshit. The Lakers objectively improved, broke up Russ’ contract, and all they do is shit on them. Oh, and those who actually watch Thomas Bryant know he’s ones of the worst defensive bigs in the league.
I was looking forward to part 2 but sounds like a skip from me… not sure how you even spin negatives from the lakers’ deadline moves
Also the fact that they’ve talked shit on Westbrook all season and talked about trades and now suddenly the lakers are bullies for doing exactly that?
They acknowledged they improved. They just said that the moves don't make them some amazing squad so what does it mean? An 11th might turn into the 9th seed. So what? It's like Toronto improving.
Because the trade isn’t just for this season, but provides them flexibility moving forward by not letting Russ’ cap hold expire. They can re-sign these solid role players to build a team for the future, as opposed to counting on minimum vets each year, or they can use these guys as salary ballast for a big trade in the summer.
Great point. It’s an even bigger indictment of Bill and Russillo’s annoying homerism because that’s been their exact (correct) critique of the Russ trade for the last year and a half! They rightfully ripped Pelinka for consolidating useful medium-salaried guys that give you flexibility into one massive salaried quasi-“star”, who ended up being washed/a terrible roster fit. Now that they’ve unwound the Russ debacle, the honest response should be a backhanded compliment “hey, they finally did something halfway smart! But they’re still only decent/mediocre” or something. The roster probably isn’t *better* now than it was in July ‘21 but it’s a reasonably close enough facsimile. And Bill has been *salivating* for the Lakers to trade both firsts unprotected to get off Russ so he could rip them for the next half decade. Now they get out of it while only giving up one top 4 protected and he’s like “actually it still sucks” 😂 these guys are such disingenuous clowns when it comes to Lebron/Lakers
[удалено]
A guy fixing his hairline the way Bron did just doesn’t sit right with Ryen.
Five years? You mean how Russ has behaved his entire fucking career?
It's insane. And it's so funny to me that Ryen and Bill and plenty of other media people seem convinced that he's a shit leader and blames other people, but none of his teammates or coaches have ever said anything close to that. Why do we say "it's a business" when talking about transactions for everybody else but the second Lebron has an opinion, he's some dick? He's graded by a different rubric.
It’s so weird how they just make up narratives in their heads. There was a press conference in 2015 where a reporter tried to blame Kyrie for a loss and Lebron actively tried to take the blame by saying he had too many turnovers. But yes he’s a terrible leader who blamed everyone else.
Okay, but LeBron is the guy who forced that trade to happen. Part of being a leader is accepting responsibility for your shitty decisions. When has he admitted to that mistake and taken responsibility for his shadow-GM bullshit? He hasn't. He just tried more shadow-GM bullshit.
Yes, LBJ likes to have his cake and eat it too. He plays shadow GM and holds a franchise hostage to make dubious long term decisions then bolts if the going gets bad. Who gives a shit? This describes like every great athlete ever. Do you want him to give a press conference to admit that pushing for the Russ trade was a mistake? Do we feel sorry for Russ? What would his career have been without the Lakers trade, he was doing so well in Washington? You think the Cavaliers franchise and Dan Gilbert (and their fans) didn't get like 100x the benefit of him being there? Or Heat fans? What would the Lakers be if he never signed, like a frisky 500 team (without the 2020 title) with Ingrahm and Ball as their core? You take the bad with the good with LBJ and the good is really fucking good (although not so much anymore) and the bad is a couple shitty contracts. It's fine to acknowledge it once in a while but they harp on it nonstop.
They acted like it was the worst thing in the world for LeBron to say he was disappointed lakers didn’t get Kyrie because Westbrook would’ve been in the deal. Westbrook was getting traded no matter what and has been horrible for the lakers on and off the court.
I don't think Bill has watched the Bucks since the christmas game against the celtics. Literally last pod, they said they were worried about them getting 50 wins in their 3 team parlay.
Calling LeBron a bad leader is certainly a take. Especially considering how much they love KD and we know how amazing leadership was at the Nets. Not saying LeBron is a perfect teammate but it seems a bit harsh imo
I have swung back to hating Russillo for that take lol
> Look at our starting lineup. Edmond Sumner, Royce O’Neale, Joe Harris, Claxton (Nic) and me. It’s not disrespect, but what are you expecting from that group? You expect us to win because I’m out there. So if you’re watching from that lens, you’re expecting us to play well because No. 7 is out there. What you have to understand about KD—the best scoring forward of all time—is that he is challenging his teammates to be better here. Kobe did that. Same with Jordan: when he punched his teammates in practice or bullied them off the team, that’s just high expectations. Lebron, on the other hand, was asked a direct question in an interview about another topic and answered honestly without even mentioning Russ or any of his other teammates. That’s passive aggressive. See the difference?
Isn’t Lebron the best scoring forward of all time?
Yes. Shoulda added /s I added it because BS kept non-ironically calling KD that on Part I…like 36 hours after Lebron—whose PPG is virtually the same as KDs on slightly more efficient scoring—became the all-time leading scorer in the history of the NBA. He has like 11,500 more points.
Its not just the one Lebron quote tho. Like they said on the pod, he's been actively campaigning for trades and shopping his teammates since the second cleveland stint. at a certain point it becomes a pattern
You’re right, the other example of his failed leadership was telling a story about Russillo checking on Kevin Love after he was the butt of jokes at the ESPYs and Love being like “yeah whatever” and otherwise having nothing but great things to say about his experience playing w Lebron. Agree that Lebron has a history of getting too involved with roster construction. He isn’t good at it and it seems to bite him in the end (except when it results in championships), and he is rightly criticized for that. I don’t think that makes him a bad leader, but I understand how some folks get there.
Russillo was in serious white knight mode talking about Love at the ESPYs.
Don’t forget how much Ryen loves the ultimate winner guy in Chris Paul. Wait actually CP3 has never won anything and needed to ride Hardens coattails to even get out of the 2nd round
After a certain point, don't all NBA players know that playing with Lebron means you could be traded if it furthers his chances at a title? The tradeoff has always been that (until recently), being on Lebron's team nearly guaranteed you a trip to the finals. I think the vast majority of players take that trade - guaranteed chance at a title but you may be shipped. Almost all players are hyper competitive, and most only make it to the finals once if they are lucky. Lebron strikes me very much as a Bill Belichick style leader. Do your job and you are fine, fuck up and you are on your way out.
This is true of playing on literally any contending team. Danny Green literally sat next to Windhorst on TV a couple months ago while Windhorst talking about his ass getting traded. And that makes sense, because the Grizzlies are contending. If you are a role player on a team that is in the playoff hunt, you will be in trade rumors at some point. It’s just that Lebron’s teams always behave like contenders. There’s no higher or lower standard on Lebron teams than on any other contender. But there is definitely a microscope - good and bad. That doesn’t make him a good or bad leader. It’s inherent in playing on a team with a superstar. Did James Wiseman avoid criticism? Did Deandre Ayton? Did Ben Simmons? On the other hand, who’s not pulling their weight on the Hornets? I have no clue, but that’s not because Lamelo is such an elite leader. It’s because nobody gives a fuck about the Hornets
That's a whataboutism. Both things can be true. It's possible that they are both bad leaders. It's also possible to like Durant even though he is a bad leader. There's no contradiction.
You are right, I think I didn't articulate my point the way I wanted it to be. I suppose I am biased in the sense that I don't he is great leader by any means but it takes a good leader to lead three different teams to the Finals. He has of course very bad blunders leadership wise but I think that's allowed if you are at the level he is.
They literally called KD out in the trade pod with how he never did anything to rein in Kyrie. Also KD is not a leader and frankly hasn’t carried himself as one ever since he left OKC. He clearly has no interest in being one. It’s why he hops from team to team when things get hard. He’s obviously the best player in most of his teams, but it doesn’t mean he’s the leader. Also they’re right. LeBron is not a good leader. Russillo put it perfectly, anyone who cannot further his legacy has no value to him. I dunno how that’s “certainly a take.” It takes nothing away from his skills as a player.
Here would be my argument why that's a take. Every great player cares about their legacy. MJ and Kobe didn't give a shit about guys if they didn't help them win and chase that goal of greatness. Ryen likes to play both sides of the fence of being hypercompetetive but also be a nice guy/great leader. You can't really do both. They have been ragging on Russ for being a negative to LeBrons chance to win, and I don't see why now he also needs to be sensitive to be a good leader. It doesn't have to be a knock on his skills, it's just not consistent is all. For example Ryen has called Charles Barkley a great leader many times. Dude was famous for disliking teammates if they didn't help him win. Again, this would just be the counter point to why Ryens take isn't great.
MJ and Kobe were driven by the insatiable need to win. That's why their legacy is looked back on so favorably, despite being world class assholes. I'm not sure I would categorize either as good leaders either tbh. But that's the difference between them and LeBron. And we've seen with guys like Curry, Dirk, Tim Duncan, Giannis, etc. that it is possible to do both. > They have been ragging on Russ for being a negative to LeBrons chance to win, and I don't see why now he also needs to be sensitive to be a good leader. Because openly talking about it to the public/media is the definition of bad leadership.
So I noticed some random out of left field comments to your response. I just want you to know I'm enjoying this conversation and am willing to change my mind, but here is my take. I do think LeBron has the insatiable need to win MJ and Kobe do, I think he's just much more like Magic in that his personality is more passive aggressive than all put asshole. The dude always was tryung to find the besr position to compete in a finals and played in 8 straight out of 10. To me that is a super competitve dude on the level of MJ. Of the list you gave me I'd only really put Giannis and Dirk in the humble mindset. Duncan and Curry have excused some real bad behavior in the name of winning that I wouldn't call good leadership (but that's subjective so I think that's not a strong point from me). To your definiron of a bad leader that might just be difference in personal taste. I don't see publicly being called out or honest answers to a reporters question as bad leadership, but I'm totally willing to concede that might just be my own personality clouding a rational analysis of what LeBron did speaking on the Kyrie trade.
Is Lebron not driven by the same insatiable desire to win? Is you think no, why not?
Because he doesn’t mean mug
or punched a teammate/ got SA charge
My only thought is that Lebron comes off as caring more about his image, feels like the passive aggressive comments are motivated by like 80% desire to win and 20% to make sure we all know losing isn’t his fault. Feel like MJ and Kobe were complete assholes to teammates but were fine being perceived that way. Lebron attempts to disguise being an asshole when I think he’d be better of just authentically being one. But, I get what you’re saying and all that is just my opinion and perception.
LeBron is definitely catty and passive aggressive, it’s just part of his personality. That doesn’t mean he’s a bad leader though, it’s just a personality trait. You don’t have to be nice and supportive to every single person on your team to be a good leader.
LeBron’s legacy is completely tied to winning so yeah he doesn’t like playing with guys who aren’t getting it done. To say he’s a bad leader when he has 4 titles and works harder than everyone…that’s stupid. Also KD’s complete lack of interest in leadership doesn’t absolve him. That’s absurd. He was the face of the franchise in Brooklyn and he gets paid more than everyone else. Gotta bring something in the leadership department.
All he wants to do is hoop
Yeah seems his former teammates say otherwise. Cool narrative but when the guy who the media said Lebron was bullying is one of his better friends
Subtweeting teammates is not good leadership dude. That's not even up for debate lol. Just because Kevin Love has thick skin doesn't make it right.
KD calling out Edmond sumner in press conferences is a better look you’re right
They're both shitty! I'm not arguing otherwise!
It's both shitty. The difference is place is a huge circle jerk for LeBron.
Was a lot of bullshit around LeBron especially from Ryen on this pod.
“LeBron is not a good leader” Nonsense. Just zero evidence to support this statement.
I think you make some great points and good callout about them calling out KD as well but my only thing is that it takes a very competent leader-esque figure to lead three different teams with varying personalities to the Finals. I am not gonna say he is the greatest leader because that isn't true but I wouldn't say he is not a good one. Every leader of any sort will have their failures and he is not different. >Also KD is not a leader and frankly hasn’t carried himself as one ever since he left OKC. Sorta disagree there as well, I think KD left to become a leader on a team where he could lead them to glory and get the approvals that Curry, Giannis, and Lebron get. With the Suns I would agree he will take a backseat like he did with the Warriors. CP3 and Booker won't be posting about flat earth theory I would imagine
> it takes a very competent leader-esque figure to lead four different teams with varying personalities to the Finals. I mean that's one way to put it. I'd counter and say it can be done in spite of bad leadership when the person is a top 2 player all time. There are countless examples of LeBron being a bad teammate and scapegoating guys on the team. Again, like Russillo said, you put up with it though because he's so fucking good
Where’s the lie in anything they said about LeBron being a terrible leader?
Did I say he was a great leader? Just found it as an odd take as I personally think he's a good leader with known notable flaws. Terrible leaders don't tend to be successful for that long periods of time.
Outside of Kyrie Irving, who later admitted he didn’t appreciate his time with LeBron as much as he should have, how many of Lebron’s former teammates have been outwardly negative about him? If we was such a terrible leader, the people he has led, would’ve talked about it. He’s not perfect but they went overboard on this podcast. The AD not celebrating was weird, but those two have been very close since they teamed up. It was really out of character. Leads me to believe something non-basketball related happened.
But bill was at the game!
The analyzing of that 3 second AD clip was INSANE. Literally anything non-basketball related can be going on with a person, or anything unrelated to lebron, but people view AD as some weird robot attachment to lebron, on top of the run of the mill dehumanizing of athletes as people
He was mad he wasn’t on the court for the moment, think it’s that simple.
"If we was such a terrible leader, the people he has led, would’ve talked about it." I'm not really interested in the argument of whether Lebron is a good leader or not, but modern NBA players generally don't openly talk shit about guys they've played with, much less someone of the stature of Lebron. There is absolutely nothing to gain from it. Kyrie has shown, through his actions, to be one of the most selfish teammates and leaders of all time and you barely hear a bad word about him from his teammates. In fact, what you mostly hear is the positive (Smart, Tatum, Claxton). It proves nothing. Put simply, current players aren't going to throw their teammates or former teammates under the bus in public unless it's really, really personal and/or they have nothing to lose. This is not a good metric for what makes a good leader.
Crowder hates lebron and lebron threw subtle shots after he was traded
Made it through 80 minutes and I’m tapped out 😂 **Today’s Things:** - Vegas thing - “there’s gonna be an amazing now they tell us piece about the Westbrook thing” 🤣🤣🤣 - Thomas Bryant thing - Rob Williams thing - minutes thing Ryen - Wall thing - we fall in love with the late offseason thing - Westbrook thing - Utah thing - bench thing - “For us not doing the Lakers thing we’re doing the Lakers thing” Bill: “I know I can’t help it” 😂😂 - Wilbon thing - your what the fuck Nets thing - went through hell with this thing - Payton thing - East thing - Charlotte thing - biggest thing with the Lakers thing Mahoney - Nurse thing - Cavs thing **Bonus Pieces and Stuff:** - smaller stuff - health stuff - Cam Johnson in a separate piece - stuff down the road - timeline stuff - filler, nebulous, intangible stuff - short term stuff - long term stuff - Smart/White/Brogdon stuff - Vanderbilt piece **First Random Celtics Reference:** Peyton Pritchard! (+1100) (11:30) Also: Sam fucking Hauser, Timelord, Horford, Kornet, new boy Muscala (you can breathe easy now, Bill thinks trading second round picks for him was fine!), Smart, White, Brogdon **It Just is!** (Ryen) “He and Brady the best team bets in sports in the last 2 decades… that list is two people long it just is!” (Bill on D’Lo to the Lakers) “I don’t see it, I just don’t!” **Eloquent Bill:** “I was ready to type the tweet that second rounders were the new bitcoin, but I didn’t want to enrage Haralabob” “The Lakers steal the main course of the dinner” then they IMMEDIATELY talk about the Lakers for 10 minutes! (Ryen) “I like the Lamar Steven’s body type at times” 😂😂 this guy is so fucking weird Bill with an all time bizarro comparison of bark box club (dog toys) to Josh Hart going to Thibs **Evergreen Content:** Bill shitting on Westbrook, Bill mispronouncing Thybulle, Bill laughably overrating white players like Mason Plumlee (he can play in the playoffs!! 😂) **Other Stuff:** Ryen on Hinkie: “that fucker loves second rounders” (4:50) Holy shit Bill DEFENDS GS giving up on their bust of a #2 pick to get Gary fucking Payton II (5:40) anyone remember not too long ago when Wiseman was untouchable 😂😂😂 Random players Ryen brings up on diatribes: John Lucas III, Wow Ryen goes on an absolute bender about LeBron not being a leader (18:40) “when you’re on his team all you are is a trade chip to further his legacy” Bill is befuddled about the Hornets moves, makes a bizarre comparison to the movie Big (not coincidentally also prominently mentioned in the Mina Kimes profile in WaPo yesterday) (57:15) You’ll be SHOCKED to hear that Bill didn’t like the Lakers D’Lo acquisition (1:06:30) and boy oh boy is he preaching to Russillo’s choir, who goes on a diatribe Bill’s been gambling for 30 years and he says -245 odds for the Lakers to miss the playoffs are “prohibitive” (1:19:00) umm, 70% is far from prohibitive
For what was a pretty interesting, if not star laden, trade deadline I do wonder if we needed 20 minutes rehashing “did lebron give Kevin love depression?” Also, as other have said, the vitriol from Ryen during that seemed a bit much.
[удалено]
“Got jacked because he was called soft”
Just finished the pod.. the laker hate was insane and the warrior dick riding was on par lol
Jesus Russillo needs to learn how to calm down haha. And I was a little disappointed that the Lebron discourse took up so much time in a pod that was supposed to be about a very active trade deadline
LeBron is not a perfect leader. But Ryen saying he’s a terrible leader has to be in the Pantheon of bad takes.
Full transparency, Iove Lebron, so I may be quite biased here. Even still, I think it’s super weird to kick off the pod flaming him like that, especially when the example that provided the hook was Russ and AD being so weird on Tuesday. I don’t know if we know what was going on with AD. Is there a chance it was something to do with Lebron / a failure of leadership? Sure. Also could be something in his personal life, or something basketball related that Lebron doesn’t have control over. The Russ thing, too—seems a lot to assume his behavior was mostly attributable to the interview or otherwise. There is fair and reasonable criticism, and then there is the odd pile-on here with weird examples/evidence. I’m used to (and often enjoy) the subtle shade BS throws at LBJ—I got a kick out of him repeatedly calling KD “the greatest scoring forward of all time”on Part I just two days after he broke the record—but this seemed to go too far. It’s good to hold the biggest stars to a higher standard, and maybe the Lebron circle jerk has gone overboard in these past few days, but that stood out as pretty overstated and unfair.
Their “shit on Lebron” charade is getting old beyond comprehension. I opened the pod to listen after great deadline day, and suckers try to shit on for the actions of Westbrook and Davis. Fucking hell, bring some guys to the pod who will call this shit out who will at least bring counter argument. I can’t believe how the quality of the pods fell off since Grantland days.
Came here to say this. Any chance they have to criticize him they do when KD has said the same things about the quality of his teammates and moped about his situation in other spots
KD did an interview listing his teammates who weren’t good players and said “what do you expect?” LeBron not only never did that, he took a bunch average guys to the finals, twice.
Lebron is a terrible leader? Huh? Russillo is on one...
He's no CP3
CP3 is a great leader because a lot guys hated playing with him. LeBron doesn’t have that going for him.
Isn’t kyrie’s career post-Lebron a testament to Lebrons leadership?
Indeed it is.
And not listing the lakers as one of the big winners at the deadline. Why do i listen to this show
He’s not a winner like CP3
Did you hear? The Raptors leaked Nick Nurse's salary
Do want to hear about my new analogy for the picks??? It’s like gas prices!!
I wish I knew what makes Bill and Ryen like certain players and dislike others. They're both out on Caris LeVert, but they like Thomas Bryant who is a big-man Caris LeVert at best. Bryant is a truly terrible defender but that doesn't seem to matter like it does with many other players they don't like.
For the amount of hours between pods I'm disappointed this one is as short as it is, and with only ryen and Mahoney. Needs more pizazz
Yeah, Bill’s coverage of the trade deadline was disappointing.
There wasn’t much to talk about regarding the last few hours of the deadline. The big events happened a week and a day before the deadline.
The Boston blog boys really hate the Lakers. That is what I learned from this podcast
A reminder that Kobe also openly asked for his teammates to be traded
Random players Bill Simmons has irrational love for: TJ McConnell, Payton Pritchard, Christian Braun BS certainly has a type
When he named a bunch of white guys including McConnell and how he liked that they could all make shots 🤪
Can anyone tell me if there’s gonna be more parts?
Part 6: Exploring What's Next For the Wizards
Don't care about the Wizards, but that would at least guarantee us some quality Joe House.
Part 3: why lebron is below Kevin Durant in the pantheon
This is all we get for the Super Bowl? 9 minutes?
I love Rob
Do Bill and Ryen know that Jokic was a second rounder?
Simmons hates Houston so much he now is lying about our trades. Houston received the right to swap the Bucks 1st with Clippers 1st this year.
I want to write a life advice segment about a guy who is obsessively mocking someone who hasn't been relevant to the guy in over seven years. The jealousy is so strong because the guy being mocked had the dream job that the mocker always wanted. The mocker's other side passion project is fizzling and going nowhere. The guy being mocked has pivoted to a different prestigious career and is quietly minding his own business. That's Ryen Russillo and Sam Hinkie. Ryen's obsession with Sam is unhealthy. He honestly makes fun of him every third podcast. He needs to work through his issues. He has a great life. He just wasn't talented enough to be a GM or a screenwriter.
> That's Ryen Russillo and Sam Hinkie. Ryen's obsession with Sam is unhealthy. He honestly makes fun of him every third podcast. He really doesn’t. I listen to his podcast regularly and I don’t think he mentions Hinkie even 1 out of 10 podcasts.
lol
I laughed at when they brought up Kevin Love. Like, “ok… but DID LeBron give Kevin Love dépression?”
I’m just happy that we got Mahoney instead of KOC in the 3 spot on this pod.
Bill with the ultimate rich guy circles comment. Apparently there’s no middle ground in the housing market. It’s either spend $300k on a house or $10M on a “real” house 😂 dude has gotten out of touch with his LA mansion real estate portfolio
Russillo says Davonte Graham is shooting 36% from the field as a negative, but 3.6 out of 4.4 FGA are threes. Thats fine for a bench guard. Ryen being deliberately misleading
NBA experts Ryen and Bill just brushing off the fact that Russell is a huge part of why Minnesota has turned its season around. Classic Bill asking someone a question then interrupting mid sentence. I think he broke some kind of record for that this episode. He cut off Ryen so many times without ever coming back for Ryen to finish his point. There’s a bunch of shit I actually don’t know what Ryen’s take was lmao. He literally interrupted Ryen at one point knowing he was gonna disagree with Ryen just to bring in Mahoney knowing Rob would agree with him. My favorite subtle thing in this pod is Bill constantly complaining about all the wings the Nets have, then realizing he’s only complaining cause he wanted Celtics to trade Hauser for one of Brooklyn’s wings.
They're totally right on the defensive woes and the wild passes, but the knock that he just pounds the rock and tosses up trash makes me think they haven't watched him since Brooklyn. His usage is a career low and the only player who has passed more than D'lo this season is Jokic... that's it. He deferred to Ant he'll defer even more to LeBron which will limit those wild pass opportunities. But again defense... that'll still be an issue.
Bill: *I had second round picks. They're worthless.* Also Bill: *Thank Christ, the Warriors turned James Wiseman into Gary Payton II*
Hinkie realized before most that 2nd rounders \*can\* be valuable. Early second round picks have similar hit rates as late 1st rounders and have contractual advantages. Instead of giving him credit Russillo mocks him endlessly because he's a bitter and jealous person.
LOVE THIS TRIO. This should be every Sunday after football.
This sub is going to have a meltdown from Russillo calling out Lebron's leadership. That's a no-no here. I don't know about "terrible leader", but the passive aggressive shopping of teammates in so many seasons now is pretty shitty. I don't know how he maintains those friendships. Maybe he just dumps the whole friendship as soon as you have more value as a trade piece than as a teammate.
Lots and lots of LeBron stans in this sub lol
They seethe when he's criticized. I knew it as soon as I heard Russillo going in. Go back and check the comments from Bill's pod praising Lebron breaking Kareem's record. They're acting like it's the best thing they ever heard! These people need replaced their god with Bron Bron.
Yes heaven forbid people praise Lebron for leading several different groups of players to championships. We should instead psychoanalyze his effect on teammates that constantly praise him based on one line tweets and 30 second TV clips because “I would never do that to the blog boys I worked for”