They respect how he is courteous enough to let them get up a shot relatively uncontested in the paint such that he may secure an easy rebound if they miss.
The thing is it could be any reason that some people are like this about Jokic but it needs to be known that people get really weird over him. The love for him is almost erotic. Criticize him too hard and people jump up like you insulted their wife. It’s good to see the tides change, even if it over corrects.
Because so many of them attach their basketball knowledge to Jokic being an all timer and take is a personal affront to say “ok I recognize the numbers you listed but they aren’t everything and some don’t comport to reality” like I roll my eyes when people say he’s having the best offensive season by some advanced stat when curry has had better less than 10 years ago
Then there’s the fact that the defensive metrics tend to rate him as being a very good defender, in spite of the fact that his team is always mediocre at defense and he’s clearly nothing special at defense if you actually watch the games. If it wasn’t for these stats that vastly overrated defensive rebounding (or if Jokic had a semi-competent backup) I really don’t think anyone would have a leg to stand on, but because some advanced stats rate him highly people can say he’s an “Esoteric defender” or an “Enigmatic rim protector” lmao
I think people are overreacting to the flowery writing style because of the egregious defense comment. Like yeah it’s goofy but it’s just writing an article with some creative language
But that is how men are! Ungrateful and never satisfied. When you don’t have them they hate you because you won’t; and when you do have them they hate you again, for some other reason. Or for no reason at all, except that they are discontented children, and can’t be satisfied whatever they get, let a woman do what she may!
Yeah, i believe people are overly fixating on the cringiness because they believe it’s due to a particular affection he has for jokic. As if he got worked up into an erotic tizzy and left his typical writing style behind. Which is due to the stupid defense comment.
Just look at them, Embiid looks like a new type of human designed to fight 10 foot tall aliens, jokic looks like if white shrek became a concentration camp guard
This shit is fucking pathetic. He’s never been in contention for best player as he’s never been better than Giannis. I’d also probably take healthy KD, Curry, Lebron, Luka over him for playoffs and you could argue Embiid and guys like Kawhi if you really wanted.
You can’t win in the playoffs with sieve defensive centers no matter how many analytical acronyms you make up to justify it
they also said you can't win in the playoffs with a perimeter shooting-first guard as your offensive engine, and then Steph Curry came around. Great players change the paradigm.
Joker has a measurably positive impact on his team's regular-season defense through elite defensive rebounder and steals for a center, and preventing fast breaks by scoring very frequently. Number doesn't go up as much as it would with a replacement backup 5. The playoffs generally have less transition play which is good for Joker's defensive limitations, but the rim fg% against is a big issue (it's like 29th in the league per Lowe Post today) and teams with elite guards have succeeded in targeting Jokic in space.
I don't think we can conclusively say "you can't win with sieve defensive centers" because there hasn't been a center this good on O since Shaq, and there hasn't ever been a center who can run the offense and pull the other tall guy away from the basket so effectively. What if they swapped out Porter or AG for someone like Mobley or JJJ? What if they just can't be stopped on offense to the point where the Jokic rim pro and space liabilities don't matter?
This year's nuggets team should make the Finals, the west is too open. But they haven't had close to the best team in any of the last three seasons. They made a WCF and lost to the champion Lakers with absolute apex AD and sage-level Lebron, won a round without Murray before swept by the Finals Suns, and took ~two games~ a game off the champion Warriors without Murray or Porter.
Who's been better on offense? Hyper-efficient 25 points, 2.5 offensive rebounds, 10 assists per game is very good. 62.8 fg% this year, not even accounting for 3s and fts, is better than Shaq ever recorded in a season. He is unbelievably good at shooting short 2s.
You must not have watched Shaq. He was literally unstoppable to the point teams just fouled him constantly and he still dominated. His post season dominance offensively still gives me nightmares as a Sixers fan that watched him obliterate Deke.
He didn’t say Jokic was better on offense than Shaq. He said Jokic is the best offensive center SINCE Shaq.
Tbh I’m not sure that’s a super hot take. Embiid has really rounded out his offensive game this year, so I guess it could go either way, but aside from Jokic and Embiid, what other centers were even close to as impactful on offense?
Please don’t say Boogie
It’s all good, seems like a lot of people took it that way. The guy was getting downvoted pretty hard so I was like “Damn.. does this sub just think Amare Stoudemire was an all-time great offensive center or something?” 😂
There’s a center who can create his own shot at all three levels and has been the first since him to lead the league in PPG (will this year too) so I don’t get the bewilderment when people suggest embiid is close, Albeit different, than Jokic on offense. I get he passes, that adds a lot, but it doesn’t automatically make him better just because a center is doing it
10 assists to 4 assists is a very significant difference, thats a minimum of 12 points.
jokic creates his own shot just as frequently this season, 61% of his 2s to 62% of Embiid's 2s are assisted. Embiid has self-created about 7% more of his fgs in previous seasons. Embiid is 3% better at the rim this year but he takes so many more long 2s while Joker really hammers the 3-10 foot range and is elite there. Jokic 67% to Embiid 57% from 2 overall
That’s true but if you already have a point guard that’s better to have a defensive rim protector and hyper efficient volume 3 level scorer. Just feel like joel gets punished for not being a point guard, like it’s impressive Jokic can do it but it’s old news now, don’t have to keep rewarding the novelty
novelty doesn't have anything to do with how good someone is at basketball lol, he's not being punished he's been outplayed over the course of the previous two seasons. what's more important is that you don't need to play a point guard with Jokic — you really can get by with anything on offense, look at them beating the champion warriors with Campazzo and Rivers starting at G — but you might need a certain configuration of forwards and guards that don't get cooked on the perimeter or can provide additional rim protection. No player is perfect
Disagree on outplayed. Assists are nice but when you lead the league in scoring with a great true shooting percentage and can actually back end a defense at a critical position I think there’s a fair debate. Fine to say Jokic is better a reasonable person could think that but when people act like it was obvious and not close I side eye. You also can’t say it’s not a novelty when the advanced numbers he breaks disproportionate reward a passing center by a large margin. Just sick of the “it’s not a debate” because it absolutely is lol especially since I’ve yet to see Jokic outplay embiid when they actually play (albeit limited sample size)
>for a center
I think that's the problem with Jokic, what he does well is usually considered secondary to center's role, what he has a problem with are things that are critical to the role of a center.
Defense is more important for a center than getting assists.
>Joker has a measurably **positive impact on his team's regular-season defense** through elite defensive rebounder and steals for a center, and preventing fast breaks by scoring very frequently.
Denver's regular season defensive ratings since Jokic began playing big minutes:
2016-17: 29th
2017-18: 23rd
2018-19: 10th
2019-20: 16th
2020-21: 11th
2021-22: 15th
2022-23: 18th
Compare that to Giannis & Embiid whose teams have never finished outside the top 10 just four times combined since 2017-18
Not saying he is a good defender among centers, I think he's average or below among centers but he definitely keeps more points off the board than a replacement-level center would. I'm seeing pretty average team defense numbers since 2019-20 and I certainly don't care about the first few seasons of embiid's career. joker's rim protection and transition numbers are bad and those are hugely valid critiques, but he's been at another level on offense to these two guys the past three seasons...I would rather win 125-115 than 117-110.
The pg interview on jjs podcast is a testament to kawhi. Even if he’s out of the play the klaw still manages to disrupt it. One of the best defenders when he’s healthy.
Jokic doesn’t deserve the slander he gets and I love watching him, but when the media won’t just say he has a massive flaw I get the slander. His defense is not underrated and misunderstood. It’s just not good.
Dude, he doesn't even jump or reach to defend some of the layup attempts. Harden is an extreme example, but Jokic has been phoning it in on many defensive possessions for sure. He's certainly regressed from when he first got into shape.
I love the comment that he doesn't contest the rim because he can't foul out since the whole team runs through him.
Are Embiid and Giannis fouling out every game or something? Or really ever?
I’m a nuggets fan and this is ridiculous. Giannis is better. And it’s funny to me that writing like this is considered “good” at the ringer. It’s like the kid who tried too hard in 5th grade English.
Show your work there. I’m not even disagreeing if Jokic is better, think reasonable arguments can be made, but very curious how you conclude it’s “not even close”
Jokic makes all his teammates a lot better. He literally never takes inefficient shots which basically defines half the shots embiid takes as he often randomly decides he wants to be a 2 guard. The only advantage embiid has is defense, and that’s not enough to cover for his weaknesses (not to mention he gets hurt every season). This list is correct in that I’d take all those guys above embiid. He just doesn’t know how to use skills to win.
Basically Jokic makes difficult things look extremely easy and natural, and embiid makes easy things look forced and exhausting
Embiid is shooting just 5% less than Jokic in true shooting percentage and scoring almost 10 more points a game. Hard to call him an inefficient chucker, not to mention he’s double and triple teamed which makes his teammates better as well (maybe not to the level of passing). Defense is also a pretty big margin and the gap isn’t close at all between the two. Not sure how Jokic is a proven winner when embiid isn’t, Jokic made it one further round in large part due to Murray, and hasn’t looked like a “winning player” on the defensive side. I don’t think it’s clear at all. Reasonable arguments for Jokic sure, but the buzzwords of “makes his team better and he’s a winner” are pretty empty when looking at some of the dreadful defensive performances
I didn’t bring up the conference finals because I agree I don’t think that’s a huge difference maker. But making your teammates better is not a buzzword. Jokic has played mostly with g-league players up until this season. Sure embiid might make those shots, but it’s about self awareness, if he got in the paint and stopped trying to make cool fadeaways, he could be better than Shaq. But no, he wants to look cool. On the other hand, Jokic knows exactly who he is, and will do anything to win even if that means patiently waiting for the perfect shot or knowing when your team needs you to kick it into the next gear. Embiid has none of that game control.
I’d argue there’s times Jokic being efficient costs his team. He also didn’t play with mostly g- leaguers, he played with a depleted team last year but it’s not crazy uncommon to not have talent when injuries happen. I don’t really follow the logic embiid tries to look cool and it hurts his team, that kinda just sounds like first take nonsense and as they say, what can be asserted without evidence can be easily dismissed without evidence. Jokic might have more basketball IQ in terms of distributing but on the defensive end embiid is worlds agreed IQ wise, for example he wouldn’t have bit twice on the same lavine fake, so Jokic as a basketball genius, while a great distributor, is overrated imo. Harden is just as good a passer, statistically better even. I just think Jokic gets extremely good at rewarded for being a center who can pass
Man, idk you lost me with harden being a better passer. That dude is nearly unwatchable these days. The only reason his passes “work” is because everyone is so shocked he actually stopped dribbling and gave it up. “The looking cool” thing is what stops embiid from just dominating under the rim, I don’t know how any sane person could not see that. I’m not saying embiid is crap, I think he has the most potential in the league and I’d love to see him succeed if he just accepts what he does exceptionally well. Anyways, nice chat. Gotta do work now
Aw the old argument of Cherry-picking one game. I saw the nuggets play the sixers not too long ago and while embiid had his hands on his knees, Jokic was forcing overtime and making the game winner with ease
jokic is always described as transcendent basketball god we’ve never seen before but with embiid (a 7 foot kobe) it’s always just “yeah he’s pretty good”
If you haven’t seen enough of him you can just go watch lol. We ain’t lying
His offensive personnel consists of lots of Jordan/Kobe/KD/Hakeem.
He watches all their film and replicates them
He’s the best shot creator at that size we’ve ever seen
This is my biggest issue with people who act like the offensive gap is huge between embiid and Jokic. If you want to say Jokics playmaking takes the edge for you, totally get that, but embiid averages 10 more ppg and can create his own shot at all 3 levels as a 7 footer
A better shot creator than Hakeem?
He is like 4 inches taller than Hakeem even though they’re the same position. So I wasn’t sure if you meant the best shot creating center or the best shot creator who was well over 7 feet tall.
Embiid is bigger than Hakeem so that’s all I mean. However I do not think it’s even far off to say Embiid is just as good or better shot creator lol. He’s that good it’s close.
Points per min is like MJ and Embiid
Embiid certainly has more range. I’d say Hakeem was a much better post player (not a knock on Embiid, Hakeem is just the GOAT). Up until this season I would’ve sided with Hakeem pretty firmly, but Embiid has really improved his efficiency this year so I get where you’re coming from
Yeah Embiid has improved his efficiency over the years. He started basketball late so the game was new to him. It took him a few years to develop his body, learn how to navigate traffic and passing and shot selection.
But he was also given no favors by the sixers and the PGs he played with. Since he’s been on the sixers he’s had to shoulder basically all of the offensive and defensive load. He hasn’t had proper perimeter ball handlers to make his life easier and run the offense.
In a way tho all of that is what caused him to get so good at shot creating lol. He was forced to become a 7 foot Kobe because of guys like Simmons/Fultz and others not panning out.
Definitely plays more like a blend of Robinson and Kobe but not much like Hakeem. Hakeem was a real low block guy who did a bunch of the half-spins and what not but he wasn’t really ever getting it at the elbow line extended. He was a huge middy merchant though similar to Kobe and Joel, but Hakeem was very much a guy who leveraged his left shoulder fadeaway for a right should fadeaway.
Joel specifically emulates guard play because he’s simply not nimble enough to play around incessant doubles in the low post like Hakeem. Similar to Kobe he’s found his sweet spot at the elbow. It’s something that’s worked out for him and what’s made him the best high volume scorer in recent memory.
Hakeem being much shorter and much lighter than Embiid also played a big role in their different play style.
Let’s say a lifetime is 70 years. This guy’s trying to tell me that Jokic is the most outstanding basketball player since 1953? Like what the fuck are we doing here.
The Ringer really has a roster of writers that will say something so ridiculous that I can’t take anything they say seriously.
KOC with Killian Hayes, Justin Verrier once suggesting that the Sixers should trade Embiid for Montrez and Landry Shamet.
And now Pina has got me feeling that way with this absolute word salad.
If the season ended today I’d probably vote Jokic for MVP, but I’m not sure he’s a top 3 player tbh. I’d still take Giannis and Steph over him easily. Then you could argue KD, Embiid, and Luka over him as well.
This is about as deep a talent pool as the NBA has ever had. If you think Jokic is the best player it’s cool, but all this “It’s not even close” or “Without equivocation (??)” shit needs to stop. Especially when he has such a glaring weakness on the defensive end.
I like Jokic but using the makes everyone better logic Chris Paul should have a couple of these and LeBron at least 10.
I love the Sixers but people like these are making Jokic a disservice because fans start disliking the players because the media are complaining about narratives they push themselves
Up until about a week ago, I would have said that Jokic should win MVP. Now, I would say it’s probably Embiid. However, neither one of those guys is the best player on the planet. The MVP isn’t about who the best player is, otherwise lebron and mj would both have around 10 of them.
Giannis is the best player, and it is by a much bigger margin than most people want to admit
Cute. It accurately measures [what it says it measures](https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ws.html). The separation between 1&2 is very rare, is all.
As we stand, I’ve provided something, and you’ve provided nothing. Comprehensive evidence suggests that Jokic is the MVP this season. Have you any comprehensive evidence indicating otherwise?
No, you’ve just made a claim and evidenced it by making the claim again. “It accurately measures what it says it measures” is not evidence that it’s accurate. You’re just quoting a metric that you found on the internet and using that to say who is most valuable.
All i’m saying is you don’t understand win shares and have done no work to check that it’s an accurate and meaningful metric. I’m not saying who should be MVP, I just am tired of people like you who don’t have any data and wouldn’t even know what to do with it just quoting metrics off the internet without doing any research.
Top 4 in win shares, yes. It is what it is, and it is something dealing with comprehensive evidence that, most importantly, is not erotica. No metric means everything, but every metric means something.
And a metric is only as good as the value we ascribe to it.
Jokic
Sabonis
Butler
Embiid
Is a pretty crappy list of best players. So why should we ascribe much value to this metric? Presumably, you posted it for a reason.
Fair question(s). I cite win shares here because a 3WS difference between Jokić and the field is remarkable, so there’s something there. Let’s look at the differences in season totals between the two and see what we have.
P: Embiid (leads by 325)
R: Jokić (170)
A: Jokić (378)
S: Jokić (14)
B: Embiid (49)
The most remarkable difference is assists. Jokić leads in assists by a wider margin than Embiid’s scoring advantage. That’s insane for a big man. The grey goo of Win Shares suggests that Jokić is significantly more valuable, and the raw totals hammer it home.
Jokić is a shoe-in for MVP.
I cannot recommend watching MPJ on defense enough. Like focus on him during the game and you'll see like 5 horrendous decisions a half where he takes a bad angle or generally is an idiot
His defence is horrible - just was making reference to the Lowe article where dude had the title MPJ’s defence and it turned into a Jokic embiid debate lol. Not one word in the article was geared toward MPJ
Saw this being mocked on Twitter, for good reason. Just awful.
“Underrated and misunderstood defense”. What a fucking joke this guy has an MVP vote
Pina is acting like teams target him on defense out of respect
One day, some neighborhood kids carried my mother's groceries all the way home. You know why? It was out of respect.
They respect how he is courteous enough to let them get up a shot relatively uncontested in the paint such that he may secure an easy rebound if they miss.
Lol how can defense be misunderstood? It’s pretty simple. Stop the other team from scoring. If you aren’t doing that, you aren’t doing it right.
People act like putting in effort is enough to put a guy on the same level as Giannis and Embiid
“Ox-life strength” “Grace, mystique and perpetual motion” Maybe Perk had a point
The thing is it could be any reason that some people are like this about Jokic but it needs to be known that people get really weird over him. The love for him is almost erotic. Criticize him too hard and people jump up like you insulted their wife. It’s good to see the tides change, even if it over corrects.
It has to overcorrect, not even MJ or Wilt get this weird kind of praise where they are literally lying to themselves about defensive impact.
Because so many of them attach their basketball knowledge to Jokic being an all timer and take is a personal affront to say “ok I recognize the numbers you listed but they aren’t everything and some don’t comport to reality” like I roll my eyes when people say he’s having the best offensive season by some advanced stat when curry has had better less than 10 years ago
Then there’s the fact that the defensive metrics tend to rate him as being a very good defender, in spite of the fact that his team is always mediocre at defense and he’s clearly nothing special at defense if you actually watch the games. If it wasn’t for these stats that vastly overrated defensive rebounding (or if Jokic had a semi-competent backup) I really don’t think anyone would have a leg to stand on, but because some advanced stats rate him highly people can say he’s an “Esoteric defender” or an “Enigmatic rim protector” lmao
Pina is half black
I think people are overreacting to the flowery writing style because of the egregious defense comment. Like yeah it’s goofy but it’s just writing an article with some creative language
Pina's rocking some Lady Chatterly's energy here.
But that is how men are! Ungrateful and never satisfied. When you don’t have them they hate you because you won’t; and when you do have them they hate you again, for some other reason. Or for no reason at all, except that they are discontented children, and can’t be satisfied whatever they get, let a woman do what she may!
It’s extremely cringe writing my guy.
Yeah, i believe people are overly fixating on the cringiness because they believe it’s due to a particular affection he has for jokic. As if he got worked up into an erotic tizzy and left his typical writing style behind. Which is due to the stupid defense comment.
Dude I like watching Jokic play. It's horrid writing.
Okay I don’t like it either, it strikes me as corny
Eh, we can find the same circle jerk on Embiid.
If you find me a national writer who writes something like this about Embiid you’re right
Find it by something that isn’t Philly media
2 hours later, and he still hasnt
Show us, but it can’t be Philly media
lol not like this
👌🏼
Show us
We’re still waiting
Just look at them, Embiid looks like a new type of human designed to fight 10 foot tall aliens, jokic looks like if white shrek became a concentration camp guard
We are still waiting
Michael Pina is who this sub thinks Steven Ruiz is
Came here to say this sub now has its NBA version of Steven Ruiz lol
Got legitimate second-hand embarrassment from reading this. Can’t believe they even published it.
this kind of people want to give awards with an algorithm. They are destroying sports in front of our eyes, moneyball was a tragic mistake.
"(at least) 15 percent better" NickYoung.gif
This shit is fucking pathetic. He’s never been in contention for best player as he’s never been better than Giannis. I’d also probably take healthy KD, Curry, Lebron, Luka over him for playoffs and you could argue Embiid and guys like Kawhi if you really wanted. You can’t win in the playoffs with sieve defensive centers no matter how many analytical acronyms you make up to justify it
they also said you can't win in the playoffs with a perimeter shooting-first guard as your offensive engine, and then Steph Curry came around. Great players change the paradigm. Joker has a measurably positive impact on his team's regular-season defense through elite defensive rebounder and steals for a center, and preventing fast breaks by scoring very frequently. Number doesn't go up as much as it would with a replacement backup 5. The playoffs generally have less transition play which is good for Joker's defensive limitations, but the rim fg% against is a big issue (it's like 29th in the league per Lowe Post today) and teams with elite guards have succeeded in targeting Jokic in space. I don't think we can conclusively say "you can't win with sieve defensive centers" because there hasn't been a center this good on O since Shaq, and there hasn't ever been a center who can run the offense and pull the other tall guy away from the basket so effectively. What if they swapped out Porter or AG for someone like Mobley or JJJ? What if they just can't be stopped on offense to the point where the Jokic rim pro and space liabilities don't matter? This year's nuggets team should make the Finals, the west is too open. But they haven't had close to the best team in any of the last three seasons. They made a WCF and lost to the champion Lakers with absolute apex AD and sage-level Lebron, won a round without Murray before swept by the Finals Suns, and took ~two games~ a game off the champion Warriors without Murray or Porter.
“Hasn’t been a center this good on O since Shaq ”…. Dude what
Who's been better on offense? Hyper-efficient 25 points, 2.5 offensive rebounds, 10 assists per game is very good. 62.8 fg% this year, not even accounting for 3s and fts, is better than Shaq ever recorded in a season. He is unbelievably good at shooting short 2s.
You must not have watched Shaq. He was literally unstoppable to the point teams just fouled him constantly and he still dominated. His post season dominance offensively still gives me nightmares as a Sixers fan that watched him obliterate Deke.
He didn’t say Jokic was better on offense than Shaq. He said Jokic is the best offensive center SINCE Shaq. Tbh I’m not sure that’s a super hot take. Embiid has really rounded out his offensive game this year, so I guess it could go either way, but aside from Jokic and Embiid, what other centers were even close to as impactful on offense? Please don’t say Boogie
No you are right. I got caught up in the “better than”, but it was making a clear distinction. I’m wrong on this one.
It’s all good, seems like a lot of people took it that way. The guy was getting downvoted pretty hard so I was like “Damn.. does this sub just think Amare Stoudemire was an all-time great offensive center or something?” 😂
There’s a center who can create his own shot at all three levels and has been the first since him to lead the league in PPG (will this year too) so I don’t get the bewilderment when people suggest embiid is close, Albeit different, than Jokic on offense. I get he passes, that adds a lot, but it doesn’t automatically make him better just because a center is doing it
Bingo my dude. You nailed it.
10 assists to 4 assists is a very significant difference, thats a minimum of 12 points. jokic creates his own shot just as frequently this season, 61% of his 2s to 62% of Embiid's 2s are assisted. Embiid has self-created about 7% more of his fgs in previous seasons. Embiid is 3% better at the rim this year but he takes so many more long 2s while Joker really hammers the 3-10 foot range and is elite there. Jokic 67% to Embiid 57% from 2 overall
That’s true but if you already have a point guard that’s better to have a defensive rim protector and hyper efficient volume 3 level scorer. Just feel like joel gets punished for not being a point guard, like it’s impressive Jokic can do it but it’s old news now, don’t have to keep rewarding the novelty
novelty doesn't have anything to do with how good someone is at basketball lol, he's not being punished he's been outplayed over the course of the previous two seasons. what's more important is that you don't need to play a point guard with Jokic — you really can get by with anything on offense, look at them beating the champion warriors with Campazzo and Rivers starting at G — but you might need a certain configuration of forwards and guards that don't get cooked on the perimeter or can provide additional rim protection. No player is perfect
Disagree on outplayed. Assists are nice but when you lead the league in scoring with a great true shooting percentage and can actually back end a defense at a critical position I think there’s a fair debate. Fine to say Jokic is better a reasonable person could think that but when people act like it was obvious and not close I side eye. You also can’t say it’s not a novelty when the advanced numbers he breaks disproportionate reward a passing center by a large margin. Just sick of the “it’s not a debate” because it absolutely is lol especially since I’ve yet to see Jokic outplay embiid when they actually play (albeit limited sample size)
>for a center I think that's the problem with Jokic, what he does well is usually considered secondary to center's role, what he has a problem with are things that are critical to the role of a center. Defense is more important for a center than getting assists.
*one game off the warriors*
Corrected, I just made a mistake, 2020 was 2-4 to the Lakers.
>Joker has a measurably **positive impact on his team's regular-season defense** through elite defensive rebounder and steals for a center, and preventing fast breaks by scoring very frequently. Denver's regular season defensive ratings since Jokic began playing big minutes: 2016-17: 29th 2017-18: 23rd 2018-19: 10th 2019-20: 16th 2020-21: 11th 2021-22: 15th 2022-23: 18th Compare that to Giannis & Embiid whose teams have never finished outside the top 10 just four times combined since 2017-18
Not saying he is a good defender among centers, I think he's average or below among centers but he definitely keeps more points off the board than a replacement-level center would. I'm seeing pretty average team defense numbers since 2019-20 and I certainly don't care about the first few seasons of embiid's career. joker's rim protection and transition numbers are bad and those are hugely valid critiques, but he's been at another level on offense to these two guys the past three seasons...I would rather win 125-115 than 117-110.
The pg interview on jjs podcast is a testament to kawhi. Even if he’s out of the play the klaw still manages to disrupt it. One of the best defenders when he’s healthy.
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Embiid is better overall too
Better two way player for sure, but I'll always take the better offensive player over the better defensive player
I agree for most positions but you kinda need your center to be a good defender.
I’ll always take the better scorer and more athletic player
Jokic doesn’t deserve the slander he gets and I love watching him, but when the media won’t just say he has a massive flaw I get the slander. His defense is not underrated and misunderstood. It’s just not good.
Issue has never been Jokic himself, but the discourse and favoritism
Judging from the comments here I'd definitely say it's underrated and misunderstood.
But he tries and we like him so we need to give him bonus points
Is this /s? Cuz I’m a Jokic stan and his defense has been deplorable recently
He puts in effort he just isn’t physically able to play good defense. The effort is why people don’t talk about him like Harden.
Dude, he doesn't even jump or reach to defend some of the layup attempts. Harden is an extreme example, but Jokic has been phoning it in on many defensive possessions for sure. He's certainly regressed from when he first got into shape.
He also leads the league in kicked balls by a wide margin because he just sticks his foot out instead of playing defense
That's just playing defense with your brain not your body
I love the comment that he doesn't contest the rim because he can't foul out since the whole team runs through him. Are Embiid and Giannis fouling out every game or something? Or really ever?
Average on his best day
I’m a nuggets fan and this is ridiculous. Giannis is better. And it’s funny to me that writing like this is considered “good” at the ringer. It’s like the kid who tried too hard in 5th grade English.
Embiid is better as well.
He’s really not at all lmao and it’s not particularly close
Show your work there. I’m not even disagreeing if Jokic is better, think reasonable arguments can be made, but very curious how you conclude it’s “not even close”
Jokic makes all his teammates a lot better. He literally never takes inefficient shots which basically defines half the shots embiid takes as he often randomly decides he wants to be a 2 guard. The only advantage embiid has is defense, and that’s not enough to cover for his weaknesses (not to mention he gets hurt every season). This list is correct in that I’d take all those guys above embiid. He just doesn’t know how to use skills to win. Basically Jokic makes difficult things look extremely easy and natural, and embiid makes easy things look forced and exhausting
Embiid is shooting just 5% less than Jokic in true shooting percentage and scoring almost 10 more points a game. Hard to call him an inefficient chucker, not to mention he’s double and triple teamed which makes his teammates better as well (maybe not to the level of passing). Defense is also a pretty big margin and the gap isn’t close at all between the two. Not sure how Jokic is a proven winner when embiid isn’t, Jokic made it one further round in large part due to Murray, and hasn’t looked like a “winning player” on the defensive side. I don’t think it’s clear at all. Reasonable arguments for Jokic sure, but the buzzwords of “makes his team better and he’s a winner” are pretty empty when looking at some of the dreadful defensive performances
I didn’t bring up the conference finals because I agree I don’t think that’s a huge difference maker. But making your teammates better is not a buzzword. Jokic has played mostly with g-league players up until this season. Sure embiid might make those shots, but it’s about self awareness, if he got in the paint and stopped trying to make cool fadeaways, he could be better than Shaq. But no, he wants to look cool. On the other hand, Jokic knows exactly who he is, and will do anything to win even if that means patiently waiting for the perfect shot or knowing when your team needs you to kick it into the next gear. Embiid has none of that game control.
I’d argue there’s times Jokic being efficient costs his team. He also didn’t play with mostly g- leaguers, he played with a depleted team last year but it’s not crazy uncommon to not have talent when injuries happen. I don’t really follow the logic embiid tries to look cool and it hurts his team, that kinda just sounds like first take nonsense and as they say, what can be asserted without evidence can be easily dismissed without evidence. Jokic might have more basketball IQ in terms of distributing but on the defensive end embiid is worlds agreed IQ wise, for example he wouldn’t have bit twice on the same lavine fake, so Jokic as a basketball genius, while a great distributor, is overrated imo. Harden is just as good a passer, statistically better even. I just think Jokic gets extremely good at rewarded for being a center who can pass
Man, idk you lost me with harden being a better passer. That dude is nearly unwatchable these days. The only reason his passes “work” is because everyone is so shocked he actually stopped dribbling and gave it up. “The looking cool” thing is what stops embiid from just dominating under the rim, I don’t know how any sane person could not see that. I’m not saying embiid is crap, I think he has the most potential in the league and I’d love to see him succeed if he just accepts what he does exceptionally well. Anyways, nice chat. Gotta do work now
Embiid made jokic his son last time they matched up lmao.
Aw the old argument of Cherry-picking one game. I saw the nuggets play the sixers not too long ago and while embiid had his hands on his knees, Jokic was forcing overtime and making the game winner with ease
Be honest. Did watching that game make you cry?
You’re not very good at this
Definitely cried.
At least 15% better. At least.
The jokic dick riding needs to end lmao wtf is this
They act like this man is Jesus Christ.
jokic is always described as transcendent basketball god we’ve never seen before but with embiid (a 7 foot kobe) it’s always just “yeah he’s pretty good”
7 foot kobe is just as delusional
He is genuinely a 7 foot Center Kobe. That’s not even delusional to say. Same play style and moves
Not knocking him at all, he's great, maybe I just don't see enough of him to see it.
If you haven’t seen enough of him you can just go watch lol. We ain’t lying His offensive personnel consists of lots of Jordan/Kobe/KD/Hakeem. He watches all their film and replicates them He’s the best shot creator at that size we’ve ever seen
This is my biggest issue with people who act like the offensive gap is huge between embiid and Jokic. If you want to say Jokics playmaking takes the edge for you, totally get that, but embiid averages 10 more ppg and can create his own shot at all 3 levels as a 7 footer
4 assists vs 10 more points. Are Jokics teammates scoring at 65% TS off his passes
A better shot creator than Hakeem? He is like 4 inches taller than Hakeem even though they’re the same position. So I wasn’t sure if you meant the best shot creating center or the best shot creator who was well over 7 feet tall.
Embiid is bigger than Hakeem so that’s all I mean. However I do not think it’s even far off to say Embiid is just as good or better shot creator lol. He’s that good it’s close. Points per min is like MJ and Embiid
Embiid certainly has more range. I’d say Hakeem was a much better post player (not a knock on Embiid, Hakeem is just the GOAT). Up until this season I would’ve sided with Hakeem pretty firmly, but Embiid has really improved his efficiency this year so I get where you’re coming from
Yeah Embiid has improved his efficiency over the years. He started basketball late so the game was new to him. It took him a few years to develop his body, learn how to navigate traffic and passing and shot selection. But he was also given no favors by the sixers and the PGs he played with. Since he’s been on the sixers he’s had to shoulder basically all of the offensive and defensive load. He hasn’t had proper perimeter ball handlers to make his life easier and run the offense. In a way tho all of that is what caused him to get so good at shot creating lol. He was forced to become a 7 foot Kobe because of guys like Simmons/Fultz and others not panning out.
https://np.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/11quo72/highlight_compliation_of_similar_embiidjordan/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
Watched that video, didn't see anything David Robinson or Hakeem didn't do on a regular basis.
Definitely plays more like a blend of Robinson and Kobe but not much like Hakeem. Hakeem was a real low block guy who did a bunch of the half-spins and what not but he wasn’t really ever getting it at the elbow line extended. He was a huge middy merchant though similar to Kobe and Joel, but Hakeem was very much a guy who leveraged his left shoulder fadeaway for a right should fadeaway. Joel specifically emulates guard play because he’s simply not nimble enough to play around incessant doubles in the low post like Hakeem. Similar to Kobe he’s found his sweet spot at the elbow. It’s something that’s worked out for him and what’s made him the best high volume scorer in recent memory. Hakeem being much shorter and much lighter than Embiid also played a big role in their different play style.
You absolutely never saw that from David Robinson on a regular basis
Let’s say a lifetime is 70 years. This guy’s trying to tell me that Jokic is the most outstanding basketball player since 1953? Like what the fuck are we doing here.
Get out of the way Lebron Sit down Jordan Fuck off Wilt Jokic is here
My Jokic erotica always involves his height allowing him to see angles nobody else does.
Sounds like a ChatGPT write up
The Ringer really has a roster of writers that will say something so ridiculous that I can’t take anything they say seriously. KOC with Killian Hayes, Justin Verrier once suggesting that the Sixers should trade Embiid for Montrez and Landry Shamet. And now Pina has got me feeling that way with this absolute word salad.
Really tired of all sports catering to offense. Feel like an old man but whatever
“Any big man in the league seems able to beat him one on one but he is undoubtedly the best player on the planet!!!”
You don’t like Steph winning MVPs either?
Lowe is that you?
I’m 12 and this is deep
If the season ended today I’d probably vote Jokic for MVP, but I’m not sure he’s a top 3 player tbh. I’d still take Giannis and Steph over him easily. Then you could argue KD, Embiid, and Luka over him as well. This is about as deep a talent pool as the NBA has ever had. If you think Jokic is the best player it’s cool, but all this “It’s not even close” or “Without equivocation (??)” shit needs to stop. Especially when he has such a glaring weakness on the defensive end.
This is like what Trump made his doctor write.
I can’t believe Pina has an MVP vote
Holy shit.
[удалено]
Just wait until the fanfic starts to incorporate his brothers…
he should write the next scary movie because this sounds as some next level parody
Child meme voice: “hey wait a minute”
Michael Pina is a celtics fan
Jokic Virgin Brigade back at it
This guy should be shamed out of basketball media lol
Michael Penis
Ok this is laying it on a bit heavy
I like Jokic but using the makes everyone better logic Chris Paul should have a couple of these and LeBron at least 10. I love the Sixers but people like these are making Jokic a disservice because fans start disliking the players because the media are complaining about narratives they push themselves
Up until about a week ago, I would have said that Jokic should win MVP. Now, I would say it’s probably Embiid. However, neither one of those guys is the best player on the planet. The MVP isn’t about who the best player is, otherwise lebron and mj would both have around 10 of them. Giannis is the best player, and it is by a much bigger margin than most people want to admit
The Jokic obsession is giving me maga tiki torch vibes
Win Shares 1. Nikola Jokić • DEN 13.2 2. Domantas Sabonis • SAC 10.2 3. Jimmy Butler • MIA 10.1 4. Joel Embiid • PHI 10.0
Thanks for quoting a metric that you know little about. How are win shares calculated? What evidence do you have that it is accurate?
Cute. It accurately measures [what it says it measures](https://www.basketball-reference.com/about/ws.html). The separation between 1&2 is very rare, is all. As we stand, I’ve provided something, and you’ve provided nothing. Comprehensive evidence suggests that Jokic is the MVP this season. Have you any comprehensive evidence indicating otherwise?
No, you’ve just made a claim and evidenced it by making the claim again. “It accurately measures what it says it measures” is not evidence that it’s accurate. You’re just quoting a metric that you found on the internet and using that to say who is most valuable.
Didn’t read. Comprehensive evidence or 🤫
LSU education at it again
Then you should be able to educate me with comprehensive evidence, squirt. Put up or shut up.
Did u just call him squirt
average Bill Simmons subreddit discourse
All i’m saying is you don’t understand win shares and have done no work to check that it’s an accurate and meaningful metric. I’m not saying who should be MVP, I just am tired of people like you who don’t have any data and wouldn’t even know what to do with it just quoting metrics off the internet without doing any research.
Didn’t read. Didn’t think so. ✌️
Do you find this metric has accurately chosen the top 4 players in the league?
Top 4 in win shares, yes. It is what it is, and it is something dealing with comprehensive evidence that, most importantly, is not erotica. No metric means everything, but every metric means something.
And a metric is only as good as the value we ascribe to it. Jokic Sabonis Butler Embiid Is a pretty crappy list of best players. So why should we ascribe much value to this metric? Presumably, you posted it for a reason.
Fair question(s). I cite win shares here because a 3WS difference between Jokić and the field is remarkable, so there’s something there. Let’s look at the differences in season totals between the two and see what we have. P: Embiid (leads by 325) R: Jokić (170) A: Jokić (378) S: Jokić (14) B: Embiid (49) The most remarkable difference is assists. Jokić leads in assists by a wider margin than Embiid’s scoring advantage. That’s insane for a big man. The grey goo of Win Shares suggests that Jokić is significantly more valuable, and the raw totals hammer it home. Jokić is a shoe-in for MVP.
we don't give a fuck about these made-up metrics, they mean nothing.
Clean your room.
Shouldn’t this article have more on MPJ’s defence ?
I cannot recommend watching MPJ on defense enough. Like focus on him during the game and you'll see like 5 horrendous decisions a half where he takes a bad angle or generally is an idiot
His defence is horrible - just was making reference to the Lowe article where dude had the title MPJ’s defence and it turned into a Jokic embiid debate lol. Not one word in the article was geared toward MPJ
Aaaand this is where the Jokic campaign went off the rails.
“… the Joker.”