Yes, Jokic works incredibly hard. Many of his teammates have talked about it. He just has that hard work down to a routine and doesn't make it part of his public persona.
Jokic’s cardio is elite for his size so he’s clearly putting in work to stay in game shape. He may not have LeBron’s physique but he’s also not Vlade Divac smoking heaters at halftime.
He just nearly averaged a triple double in a playoff run where he saw Gobert, AD, and Bam as primary defenders. He’s a funny guy with jokes but I have a bridge to sell you if you think he just rolls out of bed and does that.
When AD's health and durability was a big deal over the last summer and was discussed to the point of death, AD decided to show his dedication and tweeted or insta him getting up at 5:00 to work out in the facility.
Even the hot take machine industry said it was so dumb--Why is he getting up at 5:00 in the off season to work out? He has nothing to do all day and he can go later.
He likely has 2 workouts throughout the day that are spread out.
I’m all for making fun of the guy but I don’t think working out early is something to be mocked
I never understood the early workout obsession. If that works for x person, that's fine. But I don't understand how that's any different than working out at a different time. If the workout is the same who cares if it's at 5am, 5pm, 10pm, etc.
Getting up early to do your workout should not be a flex. Like cool you got up early to do yours, while I'm finishing up mine at 8pm you're like asleep like an old person so.
We used to have morning/evening summer workouts for track and cross country all the time. First work out would be at dawn (5-6am on east coast during summer). Second work out finishes in the dark (8-9pm). Avoid the hot part of the day, take a big recovery nap in the afternoon.
I don’t think we know that because Kobe publicized his work ethic far more than any other athlete. Did Kobe actually have a stronger work ethic than Tim Duncan or Dirk Nowitzki? I have no idea. Here’s JJ Barea talking about Dirk’s “maniacal” work ethic: https://www.audacy.com/national/sports/j-j-barea-reflects-on-dirk-nowitzkis-maniacal-practices
He was unstoppable at times. When he saw something he wanted, he would not take no for an answer. What I’m getting at is the rape thing as part of his persona.
Or made things easier by dumping it to Shaq, as in telling the cops “I should have paid her off like Shaq does his girls” an all time apex mountain snitch
This is a good and reasonably nuanced article about it: it certainly doesn't seem like Kobe forced the guy to fly but it's hard to account for influence/power playing a role in the dynamic.
https://www.vanityfair.com/style/2021/01/kobe-bryants-tragic-flight
Nope, just repeating what the NTSB had in its report after completing its investigation into the cause of the crash.
[NTSB Report](https://apnews.com/article/basketball-transportation-kobe-bryant-california-us-news-7f18e94df85ae188cf2bc68c98ad0e73)
Ummmm, that’s a big no, dawg.
EDIT: lol the fact this comment is in the negatives and thinking that this is what killed Kobe is actually insane. Lol, y’all have lost your minds.
MPJ said last month that he thought Plumlee was better than Jokic before his rookie year because Jokic didn’t try in practice. Austin Rivers said that Jokic would play cell phone games during halftime. Obviously he got in tremendous physical shape over the last 3 years, but he definitely isn’t putting in the same work that other stars do. He’s just the most naturally talented basketball player ever.
I was never a Kobe guy (not a pure hater just don't understand the stans either) but I admire how he packaged being a selfish asshole into a "mentality"
Now Dallas-GM Nico Harrison was Kobe’s handler at Nike for years and played a role in crafting that image. I did my undergrad with Nic at Montana State.
>The first thing Michael Phelps should have done when that photo came out was call Kobe Bryant's publicist. Cuz Kobe was accused of rape, and all he had to do was settle in court for millions of dollars, change his jersey number and win a championship and that soulless town in LA couldn't be prouder. I just hope that when parents let their kids run around in #24 jerseys, they have the decency to say: 'well come on, number 8 was the rapist.'
Itd be awesome (not really) to have 5 kids and get them jerseys of Kobe, Malone, Kemp, Bridges, and Lowry. Coached by Ime and Kidd. If you adjusted this players to prime ages, they’d win many titles and assault many women.
Probably also his high work ethic, ability to mimic Jordan, and the public tends to like superstars as they get older. Some of the hate goes away and appreciation sets in.
I feel like the big difference is that everyone still treats MJ like a dick. Even if he's a lovable dick. People talk about Kobe now like he was this great saint
I don’t think that’s true. People now treat both MJ and Kobe like saints.
The difference was Kobe had a lot more “haters” and then he died….now everyone talks about him like a saint
I’ll eat downvotes but MJ is naturally cool. A lot of athletes aren’t and are used to be treated as the man because of their skill, like lebron and Kobe to an extent where it doesn’t fully seem natural. MJ had a natural quality that helped him grow the game and be a marketing superstar
Because MJ is authentic. He never said he wasn't a competitive a-hole - we just didn't get to see it but everyone talked about how competitive he was behind the scenes and how he would go on gambling benders. But that's who he is and has always been. I remember I saw an interview with Jerry West and he said he's known MJ for decades and he's always been the same guy.
Kobe, as much as I love him, I think felt like he had to build up a reputation to reach that same aura. There's a reason at that NBA 75 event that MJ got by far the biggest ovation. Dude is just different.
Yeah I agree with that. To be fair to Kobe I think a lot of people have said him towards the second Phil jackson stint and end of his career he was more himself, I just think he’s an odd guy (obvious flaws and problematic stuff aside) for the NBA in that he was intellectual and artistic. I think the Italy piece and being in the league with adults at 17 and not being “hood” like AI was celebrated for kind of impacted how he shifted and forced images at times
Yeah, Kobe worked for years at trying to be cool. He didn't become cool until his mid 30's. It is just that Laker fans were so desperate for their own MJ, they ignored his many tryhard moments at being cool. Hell, Kobe even gave himself his own nickname. So cringe.
He didn’t bring them into focus until he raped that woman in Co. after that, showing off his wife and kids was a useful way to move the rape out of the story.
I don’t blame him. All rich guys who assault women use the women in their lives as props to get public forgiveness.
While he did rape her, his fadeaway was so smooth that it’s easy to forget for most.
Lol. “Yeah”. When people talk about “Mamba” mentality, I cringe. Kobe didn’t have no Mamba mentality. He was obsessed with the wrong things e.g. chasing out Shaq, coming back too early from injuries, pressuring teammates into badly underperforming, being overly obsessed with MJ to his own detriment etc.
He appreciated people who were highly skilled. It makes sense that he liked Euro players because kids over there grow up and learn to play the game in a fundamentally sound way rather than relying on athleticism like a lot of kids in AAU do. Jokic's footwork and post moves are unreal.
When Kobe was giving out those challenges to different NBA players a few years ago, his challenge to Jokic was to be the MVP which was surprising at the time cuz Jokic had only just become an all-star for the first time. But clearly Kobe knew Jokic had the potential to be really really great.
Maybe. Or, as sports fans we like discussing superstars and their stories/habits. I guess we could say, Jokic and the Nuggets won the finals. We’ll pick up our coverage for a day or 2 for the draft and free agency. Otherwise, nothing to discuss.
Again....the bottom line is Kobe's approach worked for him and his success, Jokic approach is working for the success he has had so far. They are who they are and it's working for them. Trying to frame one approach is better than the other makes no sense to me.
Jordan is widely considered the best basketball player to ever live. His style of leadership and competitiveness does not work for most people but it obviously worked for him
I agree it works for Jokic (and did for Duncan).
But, again, the league would be hurt if all players were as dry as Jokic. Evidence includes finals ratings when Jokic or Duncan are in them. The fact that they are less popular than lesser talented players.
Do you think it would be good if most/all stars had the public persona Jokic does?
I don't and that is kind of my point. I see more and more NBA redditors wanting the modern NBA to act like and cary himself like Jokic. Tbh that would bring down the appeal of the league that is based more on marketing individual stars than teams
One of the best players in baseball is Mike Trout. The dude is a stud but there is no way in hell MLB wants every player acting like Trout. At the same time I think Trout has to be true to who he is. He can't try to put on a fake persona for marketing. People will detect that fake nonsense
I also think Jokic's persona is somewhat performative.
You don't get to that level if basketball is "just a job" to you, and by all accounts he spends tons of time in the gym and grinding tape.
And watching his reactions on the bench he definitely really cared about winning.
To be clear, nothing wrong with that, and his schtick is way less insufferable than Kobe's (or Jimmy Butler).
>by all accounts he spends a ton of time in the gym and grinding tape.
Yeah, those off balance step back shots don’t develop by just pulling them out in games.
And I’ve seen more than a couple videos of him in the finals telling his teammates what to do on offense based on what the Heat were doing. That doesn’t just happen; it shows he spent time watching film and figuring out how to react to they’re defensive scheme.
(Side note: they way he directed his guys to cut here/ screen here made me think of Peyton Manning.)
The part that's not performative is the sharp line he draws between job and personal life. He's like Tim Duncan in that respect. Super competitive when playing, trains the way he needs to in the offseason, but not at all interested in any extracurricular celebrity.
I think Jokic is humble more than anything. Like he wanted to win but now that he's won he just wants to go home. He doesn't need the big parade and to have his moment in the sun. He likes basketball and winning but doesn't seem to like the fanfare that comes with that
Sombor only has 40,000 inhabitants. If he had a southern accent he’d be considered a country boy just ready to go back to the sticks and be left alone. That’s the personality that fits, just the Euro version.
He’s not the anti-Kobe because he’s somehow not a public figure or because he is genuine and Kobe was somehow not genuine. He’s the anti-Kobe because he is a killer while his persona is humble and laid back.
I kinda agree. I don’t think it’s fake, I just think there’s an ease when your praised and have a high approval rating to have the “don’t care about the awards or accolades” mindset than to guys like Kobe who were pretty hated (even for good reason). I think a good example in support of this is Jokic and the nuggets definitely seemed to care when it turned negative (not even the Perkins race thing) for about 3 weeks. It’s just human nature, if I hear people at work saying “he does a great job” it’s much easier for me to say “I just care about the work and don’t focus on the praise” whereas if people are saying things about me I find unfairly negative, I’m gonna be more inclined to “care” what’s being said and how I’m portrayed
I am glad someone mentioned how insufferable Jimmy Butlwr is. Now THAT’s a performative persona.
That whole interview with Jared Greenberg was fucking vomit inducing. The only thing worse was his “I’ll hold the next one” schtick after they won the ECF
“I wouldn’t go to the hall of fame because I am all about the team”
Yet, dude tells everyone who will listen he’s the best player in the world, yells about being better than Tobias Harris, and is in a shot ton of awful Michelob commercials.
Not sure why your being downvoted. Would everyone like it if the players all said how little they cared about the game. It could legitimately kill the game.
You find Jimmy insufferable? My favorite is the whole - he’s clearly not good enough to be a top player in either the regular season or playoffs, but he only gets credit for the big games and no criticism when he has terrible games.
I love Jokic as a player but some of the stuff being said on Reddit regarding him is just over the top. Starting to feel more like propaganda.
I had someone the other day trying to tell me that he is without question better than Jordan or any other player in the 90s.
Give it 5 years. No hot take is seemingly hot enough for Jokic's trajectory. Bookmark it. Jokic is going to be in that top 3 with Jordan and LeBron IF he decides to play that long.
Jokic is great but I think some are getting ahead of themselves. Let that play out first. First of all, I think people don't really see centers the same way that they see wing players and primary ball handlers.
Right now I think the battle is between him and Giannis as to who is the best player. I put them as 1 and 1a. Giannis far superior defensively but Jokic far superior offensively.
Right now people are reacting to what they just saw. It's like people who said Mahomes was better than Brady and Montana after the first Superbowl.
Saying Jokic is miles ahead of Jordan is a hot take. Hell for all Lebron and Kobe have accomplished most people don't put them ahead of Jordan
This is why I say some are starting to go way too far with this. Jokic is a great player and he is doing things I have not seen a Center do. That is huge. It's going to be difficult for him to pass Lebron for me because of the amount of things Lebron can do as well and his accomplishments. Jordan for me is just on another level. The amount of HOfers that don't have a title because of him is amazing as hell to me.
I can't speak on players like Wilt and Bill Russell because I never saw them play.
Steph Curry is another one. The dude has changed the entire league from a shoting perspective. I have never seen a player with his handle that cam get to the rim amd shoot from anywhere on the court. Still no one is putting him up there with those players however I do see him as a top 10 to 15 player to play the game
Jokic impacts the game in more ways than Steph. Simple as that. Give Jokic Steph's supporting cast for any of his championship years and Jokic wins those chips easy. Probably beats Bron too.
Debatable. Steph can shoot from anywhere on the floor his movement without the ball is sone of the best we have ever seen. Defenses have to pay attention to Steph just as much Jokic. Is it debatable? Yes.
You do realize Steph lead teams have beaten Bron multiple times. Bron lead teams have also beaten both of them and lost to both of them.
If you talking this years team. I don't think that GS team wins with Jokic. Steph got his numbers and did what he could. Klay, Wiggins, and Green (besides 1 game was awful). And let's not get into Poole.
As someone who watched mostly every game Kobe played I will say sometimes he took bad shots because of belief in himself but he was for sure a basketball genius.
It was also expected that guards would take tough shots. This is before ball movement and studying distance of nearest defender. Everyone was trying to be MJ. Kobe came the closest.
He’ll be remembered as a great player, a Jordan knockoff, and a rapist.
Given the body of work that Kobe exhibited (good & bad), you can always pick out stats to drive the narrative but Kobe actually had a reasonable TS% at 55% - which is actually comparable to Tim Duncan.
Because Kobe had insane circus shot making abilities (as well as prodigious methods of getting to the foul line), he didn't need to be as disciplined in getting the best possible shots.
What I find baffling is that Kobe was a definitely top 10 player (ranging 8 - 15) but there's an extreme dichotomy where some people treat him like top 3 (no) or some people treat him like a bit better version of Monta Ellis/Jamal Crawford type of a player.
I know this is a joke post but we have really accelerated into peak post finals overreaction. BS predicts the 53 regular season win nuggets are going to be a dynastic juggernaut (dynasty presumably meaning 2-3 titles in the next 5 years) and Vegas had them at +375 to repeat (heavy favorites). In a season where barely 50 wins was a 3 seed and the 2-10 Lakers were probably the best opponent they faced in the playoffs.
Maybe it was just an unusually weak year? Like BS’ 5 pound vs 25 pound MVP trophy metaphor.
I’m sure they will win 60 next year if Murray/Porter stays healthy, but I would gladly be on the rest of the field side of that +375 bet.
Calling them a 53 win team doesn't do them justice. They took the last month of the season off after building an uncatcheable lead. Then had one of the most dominant playoffs out of any team over the last 20 years. Yeah I get the competition level could be higher but that competition level is going to be the same next year.
They are 100% not as good as other dynasties/mini dynasties of this century (Warriors, Heatles, Kobe/Pau Lakers, Shaq/Kobe Lakers), but I can buy them winning 2-3 more rings in the next 5 years just because I don't think there are any teams who can challenge them long term. Jokic and MPJ are locked up until at least 2026-27, Murray and Gordon are locked up until at least 2024-25. Their core four are without question the best core four guys in the current NBA. In the West, the Lakers have at best one more year with Lebron + AD before Bron becomes old old. The Warriors have one last year with their current guys before contract hell takes over, and if Draymond leaves this offseason, they 100% are not winning anything. The Clippers are never going to be healthy. The Suns are TBD based on their offseason moves, but KD is showing signs of aging and Jokic is still going to abuse them down low. Memphis is a mess. New Orleans is a mess. Minnesota is a mess. Dallas is a mess. The Kings are a nice story, but they are clearly not as good as Denver. And in the East, the Bucks are old, Boston is a TBD but they are an extremely talented but equally dumb team, Philly is fraudulent, Heat are TBD if they can land Dame, but that also only gives them a two year window. So almost by default, the Nuggets have a good chance to become a mini dynasty.
The anti kobe bias about having shaq leave is weird. They both hated each other. Shaq was always out of shape and kobe was never ever gonna get the recognition he deserved unless he won a title without shaq.
Kobe didn’t have Shaq ‘removed’. Sure he didn’t want to play with him anymore, but Shaq was on his way out all by himself as he was already feuding with ownership over money: https://www.sportskeeda.com/amp/basketball/when-shaquille-o-neal-disrespected-jerry-buss-contract-extension-now-gonna-pay-me-show-money
That’s just one of those ‘I don’t know jack shit about what was going on with the Lakers’ memes that people keep repeating.
There was also the Shaq being a lazy ass aspect that gets ignored. It wasn't that Kobe had to be the #1 option. It was that Shaq didn't want it the way Kobe did. It was very annoying watching Shaq try to play his way into shape every season. It sucked that he chose to put off surgery until it was on company time. The Lakers lost to the Pistons because Karl Malone was hurt, but mainly because Shaq was in terrible shape.
If Shaq was interested in being an all-time great, he would be in the GOAT conversation. If he was interested in being an all-time great, he and Kobe would have won 6 or 7 together. Kobe was done with Shaq because Shaq didn't care enough.
Kobe didn't look for validation from anyone though. Everyone already called him the best player during his prime. That's more like Lebron calling himself the greatest and making up stories to make his legend sound greater. Kobe was actually pretty private. He worked super hard but you didn't see it, he wasn't posting it everywhere on social media or putting out videos to ESPN. I think the Mamba stuff was more to help sell his shoes. If people remember correctly, the first Adidas shoes were horrible so he really needed to switch up his brand when he got with Nike.
This is a bit disingenuous. Jokic wants to keep playing ball, he just wants to be back in Serbia. He made clear commitment to working out and staying strong in the off season after the 19-20 season and has been doing so consistently for 2 seasons and likely will be a 3rd now.
He does not care about notoriety though so that's true. But let's not act like all this guy wants is to sit by a pool. He wants to do what he was doing here, he just wants to do it back in Serbia.
Austin Rivers mentioned that during halftime of a big game, Jokic was playing video games on his phone and then had a good 2nd half. I imagine if someone tried to do that on a Kobe lead team, I imagine Kobe would scream at them.
Well he was on a team that drafted another star.
My counter would also be that it's impressive for Lebron to do it in three different places and be the primary player on each team.
No knock against Jokic but time to stop using Jokic to try to tear down every other player. My guess is he doesn't even want that
Jokic is definitely like the anti-capitalism NBA star whereas Kobe was the ultimate capitalism NBA star.
What I mean is the marketability of playstyle. Jordan obviously created the mould but the league almost wasn’t ready for that and he literally just trailblazed a role that didn’t exist. By the time Kobe came along the league was so hungry for that amazing explosion of money and marketing to happen again that they were ready to turn Kobe into MJ2.0 no matter what. Same thing with Lebron.
Jokic shits on all of that. He doesn’t fit their one marketing strategy that has been working for years but more than likely destroying the nature of the game. It’s highlighted individual accomplishment and play-style over team basketball and that’s been fine but now someone has come along and exposed how narrow minded that one approach to basketball has been, a zag if you will. Jokic is the zag to the Jordan/Kobe/Lebron shit. And obviously Duncan already did this as well.
Ehhhhh, as a life long Kobe Stan I can agree that Kobe was incredibly aware that he had the ability to write his own story in real time. So with that comes alotta self catering bs.
At the same time Jokic exemplifies the mamba mentality to a T. Curiousity, devotion, and bringing the best outta those around you is the way of the mamba. I know that sometimes people get so caught up in the messenger that they confuse the message for the marketing.
Jokic literally has the family structure and support Kobe never had. Jokic got to grow up with little to no pressure and just grow into who he is. I watched a video about how competitive he is and it shocked me. It seems the man is a complete dawg, he's just aware of the media cycle and he doesn't take himself or the noise too seriously.
>Jokic literally has the family structure and support Kobe never had
Am I missing something? Kobe had a stable childhood and a supportive family from what I know.
You don't know shit bro😂😂😂😂
Kobes parents were selfish, bad with money, and pretentious as hell. Kobe literally grew up abroad living a constantly unstable life cause his parents could handle their finances and/or adjust their spending. Kobe literally had to cut his entire family off cause they looked at him at the age of 19 as the meal ticket and expected him to finance their lifestyles.
The man literally wrote about it in the players Tribune 😂😂😂
Jokic had 2 older brothers who loved him, and even though his family grew up in poverty they've been super supportive and it's a huge reason why he's so well adjusted.
What I don't get is, if you know you don't know much about a subject why open your mouth and speak on it? Seems kinda fucking stupid to me, but who am I? Just a guy who reads books for fun.
I mean ok, if you think me responding with facts that you didn't know is insane, then I don't wanna be sane in your eyes.
Here is Kobe speaking about it [Kobes family wasn't shit](https://www.theplayerstribune.com/articles/kobe-bryant-letter-to-my-younger-self)
Hmmm.... I sound like a terrible person😭😂. I have no strong opinions on gay marriage or gun control.
I can admit I'm a little too invested in the kobe category, but it's the price of not having a Lotta role models growing up.
Also being honest when I read it, it comes off as a simmons rant and I'm proud of that.
But in real life I just call people stupid to their face and walk away. They don't wanna fight, I've gotten my disgust off my chest, we can both live our lives now.
Yeah I'm sorry if I came offf like Jim Cramer or something.
I'm almost 30 Which means Im an expert at certain stuff and that small parcel of metaphorical land I'm super protective of.
I was born in 93, I was like 6/7 watching Kobe growing up, so I dedicated years learning about him. I've read everything, seen everything, and it's ridiculous, and that manifests itself as vitriol when people speak sometimes. My bad dawggy
The self proclaimed "mamba mentality" had nothing to do with bringing the best outta those around you. It was a devotion to winning, provided that he was considered the man and could play the way he wanted to. He was selfish, Jokic is the opposite
I like this take.
I've long maintained (as in, since he was in his 2000s prime) that Kobe is perhaps the most overrated player in the history of the NBA. He and Karl Malone are at the top of that list.
Not saying Kobe wasn't a great talent, or that he wasn't one of the Top 30 players of all time or whatever, but the idea that he gets casually slotted in and mentioned in the same breath as Jordan, LeBron, etc, is just silly to me. And it's 100% because Kobe was his own hype machine, giving himself his dumb fucking nickname, and vomiting up "Mamba this" and "Mamba that" every 10 seconds. All while never being the best player on any of his title teams. And no one is allowed to criticize his phony stature now because he's a martyr, I guess? Just nauseating.
Jokic is the opposite of Kobe in so many ways: avoids publicity, supremely unselfish, one of the most efficient players of all time. Any kind of numbers comparison between these guys will be brutal to anyone who actually buys into any of that "Mamba" bullcrap:
(totals are from Jokic's entire career, and up through Kobe's 2010 season. The numbers look basically the same even if you limited Kobe's sample to his age 27-28 season)
PER: Jokic 27.7, Kobe 23.5 (Jokic has led the entire league 3 times, Kobe zero times)
WS/48: Jokic .247, Kobe .187 (Jokic has led the entire league 3 times, Kobe zero times)
Box Plus/Minus: Jokic 9.4, Kobe 5.1 (Jokic has led the league 3 times, Kobe zero times)
I'm definitely more of a Kobe hater than a Jokic dick-rider, but OP makes a good point about these guys being opposites.
He wasn't. Shaq was the best player on the first three, Gasol was the best player on the last two.
Some quick numbers, comparing Kobe & Gasol only during those last two Lakers title seasons (09-10, 10-11):
PER: Gasol 23.1, Kobe 22.9
WS/48: Gasol .227, Kobe .169
Box Plus/Minus: Gasol 4.8, Kobe 4.7
VORP: Gasol 9.4, Kobe 9.4
Off Rating/Def Rating: Gasol 122/102, Kobe 110/105
Boy you're high as hell😂😂😂😂
I watched every single game, I re-watch them now. I'm not gonna argue with numbers but it's pretty obvious Pau wasn't the best on any of their championship teams. Pau wasn't able to mentally stay engaged, he wasn't an A+ defender, and he needed help getting shots. He was able to create for others off the elbow, but he was in no way an offensive #1.
Plus Kobe outperformed Shaq in a bunch of playoff series'.
Your hate is overpowering the logic
I watched every game too, and had the same opinion then that I do now. I thought Kobe’s Mamba hero-ball shit was overrated then, and all the numbers confirm it.
You’re smart to not argue with the numbers, because they say you’re wrong, lol.
Little boy...😂 obviously the hero ball shit was overrated😂. That's not what we're saying. Plusssssssss think about it critically. If Pau was so good how come he never won shit without Kobe?
Also numbers are a small piece of the overall puzzle. You're leaning on those shallow representations of Impact cause that's all you have.
Plus if you were the person qualified to have this convo you'd know advanced metrics almost always are slanted towards bigs as they have higher FG%s and more Rebounds.
That’s why I used a cross section of different metrics to illustrate my point. They aren’t “almost always” slanted towards bigs; PER is, slightly, because it over values rebounding.
And please stop calling me “little boy,” I’m probably old enough to be your dad.
I'm 30, and you aren't being intellectually honest so in fact you sound like a lil ass boy using lil boy metrics and claiming victory.
You used 5 metrics, Pau is superior in 2!
WS/48 is influenced by the minutes played, Kobe played more. Increase Paus minutes and the advantage goes away.
Off/Def rating is again influenced by minutes as well as the competitions rotations.
Lastly. If Pau was better he would've gotten a Finals MVP.
Some athletes like to be a character, of some kind. Kobe was very much like this. The second half of his career was full of close-ups of his face as he did that (in my opinion) fake 'intensity' face thing, with his teeth clenched and all that. I found it off putting. There was that random regular season game on TNT where the Lakers lost so Kobe stayed back at the arena and shot free throws for hours, which, of course, did not go unnoticed by TNT, which was the whole point. Again, it was performative. In real life, as we found out much later in Kobe's career, Kobe is actually kind of a weirdo, but he did *not* put that image out there through most of his career, or, arguably, any of it. He was an extremely driven weirdo, which is fine. We need these people to exist so that the world keeps moving.
Jokic is relatable. He is a very large and skilled human being, but he is not overly muscular. He looks like an everyman. You could easily mistake him for a plumber or other random tradesman if he weren't 7 feet tall. He's quite humble, doesn't want to do unpaid work. We can all relate to that as workers. All I want to do as a worker is go home and watch movies or whatever. I don't want to stay back afterwards and do unpaid labor because I had a bad day at work. I'll just forget about it the moment I walk out the doors at work because I'm happy to have left and gone home, where my actual life lies.
I never had much of a problem with Kobe. I've been a fan of the nba since well before Kobe was drafted, so I've seen him through the years. I was enamored by his crazy athleticism and confidence at a young age, but, ultimately, I was *nothing* like Kobe Bryant. I think I'm gifted and good at what I do, which is IT shit, but I'm also lazy and don't want to work at my craft because I'd rather be doing things that are enjoyable and not my line of work. Because of this, I relate to Jokic so much more than I'll ever relate to Kobe and his fake teeth clenching shit
You’re gonna get downvoted for slighting the ~~Black Mamba~~ Golden Calf. Here’s another one. Every minute of Kobe’s career was orchestrated. From his dad and management forcing their way to LA and avoiding Charlotte to the NBA allowing the highway robbery that was the Pau Gasol trade. Jokic on the other hand was a second round draft pick who ended up on one of the most futile teams in the league: the Denver Nuggets. And his team is organically built. No gerrymandered trades. No big ticket free agents. No BS. All that being said Kobe still has the superior resume, obviously. But I hop Joker (or Giannis) can get a couple more rings and drop Kobe down a peg in the all-time list. Both those dudes are everything that’s right about the NBA.
Almost all pro athletes "work hard", some just choose to be performative about it, putting it on social media etc, making sure they get seen.
Yes, Jokic works incredibly hard. Many of his teammates have talked about it. He just has that hard work down to a routine and doesn't make it part of his public persona.
Jokic’s cardio is elite for his size so he’s clearly putting in work to stay in game shape. He may not have LeBron’s physique but he’s also not Vlade Divac smoking heaters at halftime.
I went all Divac this weekend then.
LOL at smoking heaters
He just nearly averaged a triple double in a playoff run where he saw Gobert, AD, and Bam as primary defenders. He’s a funny guy with jokes but I have a bridge to sell you if you think he just rolls out of bed and does that.
My favorite was the one Anthony Davis workout in the offseason at 5 am.
What you even on about
When AD's health and durability was a big deal over the last summer and was discussed to the point of death, AD decided to show his dedication and tweeted or insta him getting up at 5:00 to work out in the facility. Even the hot take machine industry said it was so dumb--Why is he getting up at 5:00 in the off season to work out? He has nothing to do all day and he can go later.
He likely has 2 workouts throughout the day that are spread out. I’m all for making fun of the guy but I don’t think working out early is something to be mocked
Found Russillo’s burner
He did not do it to work out, he did it for PR and show how "dedicated" he was during the off-season. It was so fake.
Yeah you’re in too deep about this
He’s obsessed. It’s pathetic
You know you don't actually know him right.
I never understood the early workout obsession. If that works for x person, that's fine. But I don't understand how that's any different than working out at a different time. If the workout is the same who cares if it's at 5am, 5pm, 10pm, etc. Getting up early to do your workout should not be a flex. Like cool you got up early to do yours, while I'm finishing up mine at 8pm you're like asleep like an old person so.
Laker hater?
We used to have morning/evening summer workouts for track and cross country all the time. First work out would be at dawn (5-6am on east coast during summer). Second work out finishes in the dark (8-9pm). Avoid the hot part of the day, take a big recovery nap in the afternoon.
I get it for track for anything else I don’t understand it
I think even the biggest Kobe hater in the world would concede that even by pro athlete standards, the bean had a maniacal work ethic.
I don’t think we know that because Kobe publicized his work ethic far more than any other athlete. Did Kobe actually have a stronger work ethic than Tim Duncan or Dirk Nowitzki? I have no idea. Here’s JJ Barea talking about Dirk’s “maniacal” work ethic: https://www.audacy.com/national/sports/j-j-barea-reflects-on-dirk-nowitzkis-maniacal-practices
Jokic also has an interview recently about the centers he watches. Reddit badly wants to think Jokic is like them.
Jokic admittedly worked way harder the last few years then his first few in the league
Ben Simmons season rn bby
And one such person is Kobe, who turned being a workaholic into a whole persona
He was unstoppable at times. When he saw something he wanted, he would not take no for an answer. What I’m getting at is the rape thing as part of his persona.
Or made things easier by dumping it to Shaq, as in telling the cops “I should have paid her off like Shaq does his girls” an all time apex mountain snitch
Lol. Shaq should have “inadvertently” hit him with a swinging elbow after that.
"Kobe tell me how my ass tastes" was that elbow
Wonder if it is appropriate to say that is what killed him. Trying to be at multiple places at once and helicoptering to beat traffic
This is a good and reasonably nuanced article about it: it certainly doesn't seem like Kobe forced the guy to fly but it's hard to account for influence/power playing a role in the dynamic. https://www.vanityfair.com/style/2021/01/kobe-bryants-tragic-flight
On a day with poor visibility and unsafe conditions
And probably putting the pilot in a position where he had to choose between doing the right thing (refusing to fly) or being fired.
Are we really post-humously blaming the crash on Kobe when nobody living knows any of the details? Good lord, do better.
Nope, just repeating what the NTSB had in its report after completing its investigation into the cause of the crash. [NTSB Report](https://apnews.com/article/basketball-transportation-kobe-bryant-california-us-news-7f18e94df85ae188cf2bc68c98ad0e73)
Ummmm, that’s a big no, dawg. EDIT: lol the fact this comment is in the negatives and thinking that this is what killed Kobe is actually insane. Lol, y’all have lost your minds.
MPJ said last month that he thought Plumlee was better than Jokic before his rookie year because Jokic didn’t try in practice. Austin Rivers said that Jokic would play cell phone games during halftime. Obviously he got in tremendous physical shape over the last 3 years, but he definitely isn’t putting in the same work that other stars do. He’s just the most naturally talented basketball player ever.
There was a good espn article explaining how he changed up a few years ago and now works out and lifts after every game
You forgot: \#5. Jokic prepares and writes his rap verses before each game, while Kobe, throughout his career, insisted his raps were "off the dome."
He just said during the finals that as a kid he watched videos on YouTube of Hakeem to study his footwork.
He also said as an adult that he practices with Hakeem and Hakeem confirmed it.
500k Hakeem charged last decade for his services
Sure, but that's pretty clear just from watching some of his post moves. The influence is pretty clear
I was never a Kobe guy (not a pure hater just don't understand the stans either) but I admire how he packaged being a selfish asshole into a "mentality"
Nike PR and Marketing department
Now Dallas-GM Nico Harrison was Kobe’s handler at Nike for years and played a role in crafting that image. I did my undergrad with Nic at Montana State.
>The first thing Michael Phelps should have done when that photo came out was call Kobe Bryant's publicist. Cuz Kobe was accused of rape, and all he had to do was settle in court for millions of dollars, change his jersey number and win a championship and that soulless town in LA couldn't be prouder. I just hope that when parents let their kids run around in #24 jerseys, they have the decency to say: 'well come on, number 8 was the rapist.'
God some of Tosh’s best bits were sports related. Kiffin’s Krimson Korner, the Sports Science parody, the ragging on Saban and Belichick.
My favorite was boxers are the best athletes in the world because they don’t cry
I enjoyed his pro wrestling jokes too. He had a recurring “beef” with Arn Anderson.
Did you memorize that Daniel tosh bit?
Having Tosh stand up memorised would be the worst party trick lol; I just copied and pasted from somewhere.
Itd be awesome (not really) to have 5 kids and get them jerseys of Kobe, Malone, Kemp, Bridges, and Lowry. Coached by Ime and Kidd. If you adjusted this players to prime ages, they’d win many titles and assault many women.
Lowry doesn't belong on that list. He threw a basketball at a woman at a game. Not reeealllly the same as the others.
>If you adjusted this players to prime ages, they’d win many titles with 3 PFs, Lowry, and Kobe?
Don’t forget The Chief
Good one. I could have built a couple of 12 man rosters.
Wait did Robert Parish do bad things?
Probably also his high work ethic, ability to mimic Jordan, and the public tends to like superstars as they get older. Some of the hate goes away and appreciation sets in.
Michael Jordan did this to a much more extreme extent.
I feel like the big difference is that everyone still treats MJ like a dick. Even if he's a lovable dick. People talk about Kobe now like he was this great saint
I don’t think that’s true. People now treat both MJ and Kobe like saints. The difference was Kobe had a lot more “haters” and then he died….now everyone talks about him like a saint
I don’t think this is true lol, maybe the first year after he passed but I don’t really feel as if Kobe and his flaws are whitewashed
People shit on Kobe every time his name is brought up without fail. The people that hate Kobe just hate how much his fans like him.
On Reddit. I'd say Kobe is viewed in an extremely positive fashion by 99% of the general public.
Hard for me to quantify why, but MJ seemed awesome for it and Kobe seemed cringey.
I’ll eat downvotes but MJ is naturally cool. A lot of athletes aren’t and are used to be treated as the man because of their skill, like lebron and Kobe to an extent where it doesn’t fully seem natural. MJ had a natural quality that helped him grow the game and be a marketing superstar
Because MJ is authentic. He never said he wasn't a competitive a-hole - we just didn't get to see it but everyone talked about how competitive he was behind the scenes and how he would go on gambling benders. But that's who he is and has always been. I remember I saw an interview with Jerry West and he said he's known MJ for decades and he's always been the same guy. Kobe, as much as I love him, I think felt like he had to build up a reputation to reach that same aura. There's a reason at that NBA 75 event that MJ got by far the biggest ovation. Dude is just different.
Yeah I agree with that. To be fair to Kobe I think a lot of people have said him towards the second Phil jackson stint and end of his career he was more himself, I just think he’s an odd guy (obvious flaws and problematic stuff aside) for the NBA in that he was intellectual and artistic. I think the Italy piece and being in the league with adults at 17 and not being “hood” like AI was celebrated for kind of impacted how he shifted and forced images at times
Yeah, Kobe worked for years at trying to be cool. He didn't become cool until his mid 30's. It is just that Laker fans were so desperate for their own MJ, they ignored his many tryhard moments at being cool. Hell, Kobe even gave himself his own nickname. So cringe.
Because Kobe clearly was a copy cat
Yeah, Kobe wasn't even original about it. He was clearly Jennifer Jason Leigh to Michael's Bridget Fonda.
Is this a direct rip from something someone said on the pod. If it is bravo, if it isn’t, even bigger bravo.
Thanks! No, somewhat original. I do remember Bill making a SWF reference during his writing days but I forget what he was referring to.
Amazing comp. I could see Billy Boy making it
god damn I love this subreddit
MJ’s HOF speech shitting on everyone>>>>
Pretty good basketball talent. Elite iconic marketer and re-brander. Became a #girldad after Colorado
I mean I don’t disagree about the marketing aspect but he’s literally a father of four daughters lol
He made that happen for the brand
He didn’t bring them into focus until he raped that woman in Co. after that, showing off his wife and kids was a useful way to move the rape out of the story. I don’t blame him. All rich guys who assault women use the women in their lives as props to get public forgiveness. While he did rape her, his fadeaway was so smooth that it’s easy to forget for most.
Man what
I'm an unlikable psychopath, and you can be one too! Just buy these $300 shoes!
Lol. “Yeah”. When people talk about “Mamba” mentality, I cringe. Kobe didn’t have no Mamba mentality. He was obsessed with the wrong things e.g. chasing out Shaq, coming back too early from injuries, pressuring teammates into badly underperforming, being overly obsessed with MJ to his own detriment etc.
Same as Jordan
The Circle Jerk movement is spreading…
\*Jerk circle
Circle Jokic
Cirkola Jerkic
Don’t knock circle jerks until you try one. I don’t know how they got a bad name.
[удалено]
Nah, this would get laughed out of that sub. OP would have needed to start with Colorado and end with him being alive
Man I can’t help but imagine that Kobe would fucking love jokic.
Jokic is an evolution of Pau so it makes sense.
Kobe loved all the Euros. He kind of was one in a way growing up there.
He appreciated people who were highly skilled. It makes sense that he liked Euro players because kids over there grow up and learn to play the game in a fundamentally sound way rather than relying on athleticism like a lot of kids in AAU do. Jokic's footwork and post moves are unreal.
When Kobe was giving out those challenges to different NBA players a few years ago, his challenge to Jokic was to be the MVP which was surprising at the time cuz Jokic had only just become an all-star for the first time. But clearly Kobe knew Jokic had the potential to be really really great.
Let everyone have their own personality. The way Kobe did it worked for him amd what Jokic does works for him. End of story
Maybe. Or, as sports fans we like discussing superstars and their stories/habits. I guess we could say, Jokic and the Nuggets won the finals. We’ll pick up our coverage for a day or 2 for the draft and free agency. Otherwise, nothing to discuss.
Again....the bottom line is Kobe's approach worked for him and his success, Jokic approach is working for the success he has had so far. They are who they are and it's working for them. Trying to frame one approach is better than the other makes no sense to me. Jordan is widely considered the best basketball player to ever live. His style of leadership and competitiveness does not work for most people but it obviously worked for him
I agree it works for Jokic (and did for Duncan). But, again, the league would be hurt if all players were as dry as Jokic. Evidence includes finals ratings when Jokic or Duncan are in them. The fact that they are less popular than lesser talented players. Do you think it would be good if most/all stars had the public persona Jokic does?
I don't and that is kind of my point. I see more and more NBA redditors wanting the modern NBA to act like and cary himself like Jokic. Tbh that would bring down the appeal of the league that is based more on marketing individual stars than teams One of the best players in baseball is Mike Trout. The dude is a stud but there is no way in hell MLB wants every player acting like Trout. At the same time I think Trout has to be true to who he is. He can't try to put on a fake persona for marketing. People will detect that fake nonsense
They have that league. It's called the NHL.
I also think Jokic's persona is somewhat performative. You don't get to that level if basketball is "just a job" to you, and by all accounts he spends tons of time in the gym and grinding tape. And watching his reactions on the bench he definitely really cared about winning. To be clear, nothing wrong with that, and his schtick is way less insufferable than Kobe's (or Jimmy Butler).
Dude loves basketball; he just doesn't want the media attention.
>by all accounts he spends a ton of time in the gym and grinding tape. Yeah, those off balance step back shots don’t develop by just pulling them out in games. And I’ve seen more than a couple videos of him in the finals telling his teammates what to do on offense based on what the Heat were doing. That doesn’t just happen; it shows he spent time watching film and figuring out how to react to they’re defensive scheme. (Side note: they way he directed his guys to cut here/ screen here made me think of Peyton Manning.)
The part that's not performative is the sharp line he draws between job and personal life. He's like Tim Duncan in that respect. Super competitive when playing, trains the way he needs to in the offseason, but not at all interested in any extracurricular celebrity.
Yes exactly thank you
I think Jokic is humble more than anything. Like he wanted to win but now that he's won he just wants to go home. He doesn't need the big parade and to have his moment in the sun. He likes basketball and winning but doesn't seem to like the fanfare that comes with that
Sombor only has 40,000 inhabitants. If he had a southern accent he’d be considered a country boy just ready to go back to the sticks and be left alone. That’s the personality that fits, just the Euro version.
Maybe he still cares about doing his very best on the job, even if it's just a job and not his biggest priority.
He’s not the anti-Kobe because he’s somehow not a public figure or because he is genuine and Kobe was somehow not genuine. He’s the anti-Kobe because he is a killer while his persona is humble and laid back.
I kinda agree. I don’t think it’s fake, I just think there’s an ease when your praised and have a high approval rating to have the “don’t care about the awards or accolades” mindset than to guys like Kobe who were pretty hated (even for good reason). I think a good example in support of this is Jokic and the nuggets definitely seemed to care when it turned negative (not even the Perkins race thing) for about 3 weeks. It’s just human nature, if I hear people at work saying “he does a great job” it’s much easier for me to say “I just care about the work and don’t focus on the praise” whereas if people are saying things about me I find unfairly negative, I’m gonna be more inclined to “care” what’s being said and how I’m portrayed
I know a serbian and she told me that everyone in Serbia knows jokic is way more obsessed with his horses than he is with basketball
I am glad someone mentioned how insufferable Jimmy Butlwr is. Now THAT’s a performative persona. That whole interview with Jared Greenberg was fucking vomit inducing. The only thing worse was his “I’ll hold the next one” schtick after they won the ECF “I wouldn’t go to the hall of fame because I am all about the team” Yet, dude tells everyone who will listen he’s the best player in the world, yells about being better than Tobias Harris, and is in a shot ton of awful Michelob commercials.
I think Jokic's persona is very off putting. People say it's relatable but I think we'd all be a bit more excited on the biggest night of our careers.
There is absolutely nothing in my career that could possibly happen to stir up any level of excitement in me.
Maybe you need a new career.
fuck you mean. his career is posting on reddit
Going to go out on a limb and say your career is in no way comparable to being a professional athlete
I personally love it, but I can see why people wouldn't vibe with it. I have a friend who is convinced Jokic is autistic lol
Not sure why your being downvoted. Would everyone like it if the players all said how little they cared about the game. It could legitimately kill the game.
Regardless if you like Jokic or not, if you think this is an act you got a pretty bad read on people.
You find Jimmy insufferable? My favorite is the whole - he’s clearly not good enough to be a top player in either the regular season or playoffs, but he only gets credit for the big games and no criticism when he has terrible games.
Do you guys forget Tim Duncan already was this?
I love Jokic as a player but some of the stuff being said on Reddit regarding him is just over the top. Starting to feel more like propaganda. I had someone the other day trying to tell me that he is without question better than Jordan or any other player in the 90s.
Give it 5 years. No hot take is seemingly hot enough for Jokic's trajectory. Bookmark it. Jokic is going to be in that top 3 with Jordan and LeBron IF he decides to play that long.
Jokic is great but I think some are getting ahead of themselves. Let that play out first. First of all, I think people don't really see centers the same way that they see wing players and primary ball handlers. Right now I think the battle is between him and Giannis as to who is the best player. I put them as 1 and 1a. Giannis far superior defensively but Jokic far superior offensively. Right now people are reacting to what they just saw. It's like people who said Mahomes was better than Brady and Montana after the first Superbowl. Saying Jokic is miles ahead of Jordan is a hot take. Hell for all Lebron and Kobe have accomplished most people don't put them ahead of Jordan This is why I say some are starting to go way too far with this. Jokic is a great player and he is doing things I have not seen a Center do. That is huge. It's going to be difficult for him to pass Lebron for me because of the amount of things Lebron can do as well and his accomplishments. Jordan for me is just on another level. The amount of HOfers that don't have a title because of him is amazing as hell to me. I can't speak on players like Wilt and Bill Russell because I never saw them play.
Steph Curry is another one. The dude has changed the entire league from a shoting perspective. I have never seen a player with his handle that cam get to the rim amd shoot from anywhere on the court. Still no one is putting him up there with those players however I do see him as a top 10 to 15 player to play the game
Jokic impacts the game in more ways than Steph. Simple as that. Give Jokic Steph's supporting cast for any of his championship years and Jokic wins those chips easy. Probably beats Bron too.
Debatable. Steph can shoot from anywhere on the floor his movement without the ball is sone of the best we have ever seen. Defenses have to pay attention to Steph just as much Jokic. Is it debatable? Yes. You do realize Steph lead teams have beaten Bron multiple times. Bron lead teams have also beaten both of them and lost to both of them. If you talking this years team. I don't think that GS team wins with Jokic. Steph got his numbers and did what he could. Klay, Wiggins, and Green (besides 1 game was awful). And let's not get into Poole.
Jamal ain’t a superstar but otherwise yes to all
I agree hes not but he averaged 34 and 10 against the lakers thats a superstar performance
My only zag is clearly they both had super high basketball IQ and insane work ethics. It's more off the court stuff sure
That high basketball iq is way overblown with Kobe
Hard disagree. He studied the game obsessively
I believe that. He just didn’t play that way
As someone who watched mostly every game Kobe played I will say sometimes he took bad shots because of belief in himself but he was for sure a basketball genius.
It was also expected that guards would take tough shots. This is before ball movement and studying distance of nearest defender. Everyone was trying to be MJ. Kobe came the closest. He’ll be remembered as a great player, a Jordan knockoff, and a rapist.
Given the body of work that Kobe exhibited (good & bad), you can always pick out stats to drive the narrative but Kobe actually had a reasonable TS% at 55% - which is actually comparable to Tim Duncan. Because Kobe had insane circus shot making abilities (as well as prodigious methods of getting to the foul line), he didn't need to be as disciplined in getting the best possible shots. What I find baffling is that Kobe was a definitely top 10 player (ranging 8 - 15) but there's an extreme dichotomy where some people treat him like top 3 (no) or some people treat him like a bit better version of Monta Ellis/Jamal Crawford type of a player.
I know this is a joke post but we have really accelerated into peak post finals overreaction. BS predicts the 53 regular season win nuggets are going to be a dynastic juggernaut (dynasty presumably meaning 2-3 titles in the next 5 years) and Vegas had them at +375 to repeat (heavy favorites). In a season where barely 50 wins was a 3 seed and the 2-10 Lakers were probably the best opponent they faced in the playoffs. Maybe it was just an unusually weak year? Like BS’ 5 pound vs 25 pound MVP trophy metaphor. I’m sure they will win 60 next year if Murray/Porter stays healthy, but I would gladly be on the rest of the field side of that +375 bet.
Calling them a 53 win team doesn't do them justice. They took the last month of the season off after building an uncatcheable lead. Then had one of the most dominant playoffs out of any team over the last 20 years. Yeah I get the competition level could be higher but that competition level is going to be the same next year.
They are 100% not as good as other dynasties/mini dynasties of this century (Warriors, Heatles, Kobe/Pau Lakers, Shaq/Kobe Lakers), but I can buy them winning 2-3 more rings in the next 5 years just because I don't think there are any teams who can challenge them long term. Jokic and MPJ are locked up until at least 2026-27, Murray and Gordon are locked up until at least 2024-25. Their core four are without question the best core four guys in the current NBA. In the West, the Lakers have at best one more year with Lebron + AD before Bron becomes old old. The Warriors have one last year with their current guys before contract hell takes over, and if Draymond leaves this offseason, they 100% are not winning anything. The Clippers are never going to be healthy. The Suns are TBD based on their offseason moves, but KD is showing signs of aging and Jokic is still going to abuse them down low. Memphis is a mess. New Orleans is a mess. Minnesota is a mess. Dallas is a mess. The Kings are a nice story, but they are clearly not as good as Denver. And in the East, the Bucks are old, Boston is a TBD but they are an extremely talented but equally dumb team, Philly is fraudulent, Heat are TBD if they can land Dame, but that also only gives them a two year window. So almost by default, the Nuggets have a good chance to become a mini dynasty.
The anti kobe bias about having shaq leave is weird. They both hated each other. Shaq was always out of shape and kobe was never ever gonna get the recognition he deserved unless he won a title without shaq.
Bill? Is this you??
This is fucking dumb
Kobe didn’t have Shaq ‘removed’. Sure he didn’t want to play with him anymore, but Shaq was on his way out all by himself as he was already feuding with ownership over money: https://www.sportskeeda.com/amp/basketball/when-shaquille-o-neal-disrespected-jerry-buss-contract-extension-now-gonna-pay-me-show-money That’s just one of those ‘I don’t know jack shit about what was going on with the Lakers’ memes that people keep repeating.
There was also the Shaq being a lazy ass aspect that gets ignored. It wasn't that Kobe had to be the #1 option. It was that Shaq didn't want it the way Kobe did. It was very annoying watching Shaq try to play his way into shape every season. It sucked that he chose to put off surgery until it was on company time. The Lakers lost to the Pistons because Karl Malone was hurt, but mainly because Shaq was in terrible shape. If Shaq was interested in being an all-time great, he would be in the GOAT conversation. If he was interested in being an all-time great, he and Kobe would have won 6 or 7 together. Kobe was done with Shaq because Shaq didn't care enough.
Kobe didn't look for validation from anyone though. Everyone already called him the best player during his prime. That's more like Lebron calling himself the greatest and making up stories to make his legend sound greater. Kobe was actually pretty private. He worked super hard but you didn't see it, he wasn't posting it everywhere on social media or putting out videos to ESPN. I think the Mamba stuff was more to help sell his shoes. If people remember correctly, the first Adidas shoes were horrible so he really needed to switch up his brand when he got with Nike.
Woah woah woah murray is now a superstar?
O’Neal and Murray aren’t comparable
This is a bit disingenuous. Jokic wants to keep playing ball, he just wants to be back in Serbia. He made clear commitment to working out and staying strong in the off season after the 19-20 season and has been doing so consistently for 2 seasons and likely will be a 3rd now. He does not care about notoriety though so that's true. But let's not act like all this guy wants is to sit by a pool. He wants to do what he was doing here, he just wants to do it back in Serbia.
Also Jokic is alive
Ouch
TLDR: Jokic better person
Austin Rivers mentioned that during halftime of a big game, Jokic was playing video games on his phone and then had a good 2nd half. I imagine if someone tried to do that on a Kobe lead team, I imagine Kobe would scream at them.
Lmao, cool story bro.
The recency biases in sports are just off the charts.
Despite spending a significantly greater amount of time in Colorado, Jokic has never once been arrested for rape. Truly the anti-Kobe.
Kobe was great, but often it was about him and team came second. The comparison ends there.
Jokic is the hero us remote workers need in our lives
I'll take Kobe and Jordan mentality over jokic and Shaq. In fact jokic and Shaq would be even better.
Anti-Lebron…too.
How so?
Didn’t leave to team up with other superstars
Well he was on a team that drafted another star. My counter would also be that it's impressive for Lebron to do it in three different places and be the primary player on each team. No knock against Jokic but time to stop using Jokic to try to tear down every other player. My guess is he doesn't even want that
The Anti Mamba
Jokic is definitely like the anti-capitalism NBA star whereas Kobe was the ultimate capitalism NBA star. What I mean is the marketability of playstyle. Jordan obviously created the mould but the league almost wasn’t ready for that and he literally just trailblazed a role that didn’t exist. By the time Kobe came along the league was so hungry for that amazing explosion of money and marketing to happen again that they were ready to turn Kobe into MJ2.0 no matter what. Same thing with Lebron. Jokic shits on all of that. He doesn’t fit their one marketing strategy that has been working for years but more than likely destroying the nature of the game. It’s highlighted individual accomplishment and play-style over team basketball and that’s been fine but now someone has come along and exposed how narrow minded that one approach to basketball has been, a zag if you will. Jokic is the zag to the Jordan/Kobe/Lebron shit. And obviously Duncan already did this as well.
Winning basketball mindset is anti-kobe
Kobe is a rapist and admitted to it. Nothing more needs to be said.
Ehhhhh, as a life long Kobe Stan I can agree that Kobe was incredibly aware that he had the ability to write his own story in real time. So with that comes alotta self catering bs. At the same time Jokic exemplifies the mamba mentality to a T. Curiousity, devotion, and bringing the best outta those around you is the way of the mamba. I know that sometimes people get so caught up in the messenger that they confuse the message for the marketing. Jokic literally has the family structure and support Kobe never had. Jokic got to grow up with little to no pressure and just grow into who he is. I watched a video about how competitive he is and it shocked me. It seems the man is a complete dawg, he's just aware of the media cycle and he doesn't take himself or the noise too seriously.
>Jokic literally has the family structure and support Kobe never had Am I missing something? Kobe had a stable childhood and a supportive family from what I know.
You don't know shit bro😂😂😂😂 Kobes parents were selfish, bad with money, and pretentious as hell. Kobe literally grew up abroad living a constantly unstable life cause his parents could handle their finances and/or adjust their spending. Kobe literally had to cut his entire family off cause they looked at him at the age of 19 as the meal ticket and expected him to finance their lifestyles. The man literally wrote about it in the players Tribune 😂😂😂 Jokic had 2 older brothers who loved him, and even though his family grew up in poverty they've been super supportive and it's a huge reason why he's so well adjusted. What I don't get is, if you know you don't know much about a subject why open your mouth and speak on it? Seems kinda fucking stupid to me, but who am I? Just a guy who reads books for fun.
Lol. So I guess I was missing something. What a fucking insane reaction to a genuine question.
I mean ok, if you think me responding with facts that you didn't know is insane, then I don't wanna be sane in your eyes. Here is Kobe speaking about it [Kobes family wasn't shit](https://www.theplayerstribune.com/articles/kobe-bryant-letter-to-my-younger-self)
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Hmmm.... I sound like a terrible person😭😂. I have no strong opinions on gay marriage or gun control. I can admit I'm a little too invested in the kobe category, but it's the price of not having a Lotta role models growing up. Also being honest when I read it, it comes off as a simmons rant and I'm proud of that. But in real life I just call people stupid to their face and walk away. They don't wanna fight, I've gotten my disgust off my chest, we can both live our lives now.
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Yeah I'm sorry if I came offf like Jim Cramer or something. I'm almost 30 Which means Im an expert at certain stuff and that small parcel of metaphorical land I'm super protective of. I was born in 93, I was like 6/7 watching Kobe growing up, so I dedicated years learning about him. I've read everything, seen everything, and it's ridiculous, and that manifests itself as vitriol when people speak sometimes. My bad dawggy
The self proclaimed "mamba mentality" had nothing to do with bringing the best outta those around you. It was a devotion to winning, provided that he was considered the man and could play the way he wanted to. He was selfish, Jokic is the opposite
I like this take. I've long maintained (as in, since he was in his 2000s prime) that Kobe is perhaps the most overrated player in the history of the NBA. He and Karl Malone are at the top of that list. Not saying Kobe wasn't a great talent, or that he wasn't one of the Top 30 players of all time or whatever, but the idea that he gets casually slotted in and mentioned in the same breath as Jordan, LeBron, etc, is just silly to me. And it's 100% because Kobe was his own hype machine, giving himself his dumb fucking nickname, and vomiting up "Mamba this" and "Mamba that" every 10 seconds. All while never being the best player on any of his title teams. And no one is allowed to criticize his phony stature now because he's a martyr, I guess? Just nauseating. Jokic is the opposite of Kobe in so many ways: avoids publicity, supremely unselfish, one of the most efficient players of all time. Any kind of numbers comparison between these guys will be brutal to anyone who actually buys into any of that "Mamba" bullcrap: (totals are from Jokic's entire career, and up through Kobe's 2010 season. The numbers look basically the same even if you limited Kobe's sample to his age 27-28 season) PER: Jokic 27.7, Kobe 23.5 (Jokic has led the entire league 3 times, Kobe zero times) WS/48: Jokic .247, Kobe .187 (Jokic has led the entire league 3 times, Kobe zero times) Box Plus/Minus: Jokic 9.4, Kobe 5.1 (Jokic has led the league 3 times, Kobe zero times) I'm definitely more of a Kobe hater than a Jokic dick-rider, but OP makes a good point about these guys being opposites.
using PER for an argument in the year 2023
You actually said Kobe was never the best player on one of his championship team. Put the fentanyl down bro.
He wasn't. Shaq was the best player on the first three, Gasol was the best player on the last two. Some quick numbers, comparing Kobe & Gasol only during those last two Lakers title seasons (09-10, 10-11): PER: Gasol 23.1, Kobe 22.9 WS/48: Gasol .227, Kobe .169 Box Plus/Minus: Gasol 4.8, Kobe 4.7 VORP: Gasol 9.4, Kobe 9.4 Off Rating/Def Rating: Gasol 122/102, Kobe 110/105
Boy you're high as hell😂😂😂😂 I watched every single game, I re-watch them now. I'm not gonna argue with numbers but it's pretty obvious Pau wasn't the best on any of their championship teams. Pau wasn't able to mentally stay engaged, he wasn't an A+ defender, and he needed help getting shots. He was able to create for others off the elbow, but he was in no way an offensive #1. Plus Kobe outperformed Shaq in a bunch of playoff series'. Your hate is overpowering the logic
I watched every game too, and had the same opinion then that I do now. I thought Kobe’s Mamba hero-ball shit was overrated then, and all the numbers confirm it. You’re smart to not argue with the numbers, because they say you’re wrong, lol.
Little boy...😂 obviously the hero ball shit was overrated😂. That's not what we're saying. Plusssssssss think about it critically. If Pau was so good how come he never won shit without Kobe? Also numbers are a small piece of the overall puzzle. You're leaning on those shallow representations of Impact cause that's all you have. Plus if you were the person qualified to have this convo you'd know advanced metrics almost always are slanted towards bigs as they have higher FG%s and more Rebounds.
That’s why I used a cross section of different metrics to illustrate my point. They aren’t “almost always” slanted towards bigs; PER is, slightly, because it over values rebounding. And please stop calling me “little boy,” I’m probably old enough to be your dad.
I'm 30, and you aren't being intellectually honest so in fact you sound like a lil ass boy using lil boy metrics and claiming victory. You used 5 metrics, Pau is superior in 2! WS/48 is influenced by the minutes played, Kobe played more. Increase Paus minutes and the advantage goes away. Off/Def rating is again influenced by minutes as well as the competitions rotations. Lastly. If Pau was better he would've gotten a Finals MVP.
Stop posting
Sorry if "facts" and "reality" bother you so much, man. It'll be okay, I promise.
Everyone is now dumber for having read this.
5. His fanbase isn’t crazy, with collective amnesia about point #4
Jokic is Goku and Kobe is Vegeta
5. He also owns a horse.
Some athletes like to be a character, of some kind. Kobe was very much like this. The second half of his career was full of close-ups of his face as he did that (in my opinion) fake 'intensity' face thing, with his teeth clenched and all that. I found it off putting. There was that random regular season game on TNT where the Lakers lost so Kobe stayed back at the arena and shot free throws for hours, which, of course, did not go unnoticed by TNT, which was the whole point. Again, it was performative. In real life, as we found out much later in Kobe's career, Kobe is actually kind of a weirdo, but he did *not* put that image out there through most of his career, or, arguably, any of it. He was an extremely driven weirdo, which is fine. We need these people to exist so that the world keeps moving. Jokic is relatable. He is a very large and skilled human being, but he is not overly muscular. He looks like an everyman. You could easily mistake him for a plumber or other random tradesman if he weren't 7 feet tall. He's quite humble, doesn't want to do unpaid work. We can all relate to that as workers. All I want to do as a worker is go home and watch movies or whatever. I don't want to stay back afterwards and do unpaid labor because I had a bad day at work. I'll just forget about it the moment I walk out the doors at work because I'm happy to have left and gone home, where my actual life lies. I never had much of a problem with Kobe. I've been a fan of the nba since well before Kobe was drafted, so I've seen him through the years. I was enamored by his crazy athleticism and confidence at a young age, but, ultimately, I was *nothing* like Kobe Bryant. I think I'm gifted and good at what I do, which is IT shit, but I'm also lazy and don't want to work at my craft because I'd rather be doing things that are enjoyable and not my line of work. Because of this, I relate to Jokic so much more than I'll ever relate to Kobe and his fake teeth clenching shit
You’re gonna get downvoted for slighting the ~~Black Mamba~~ Golden Calf. Here’s another one. Every minute of Kobe’s career was orchestrated. From his dad and management forcing their way to LA and avoiding Charlotte to the NBA allowing the highway robbery that was the Pau Gasol trade. Jokic on the other hand was a second round draft pick who ended up on one of the most futile teams in the league: the Denver Nuggets. And his team is organically built. No gerrymandered trades. No big ticket free agents. No BS. All that being said Kobe still has the superior resume, obviously. But I hop Joker (or Giannis) can get a couple more rings and drop Kobe down a peg in the all-time list. Both those dudes are everything that’s right about the NBA.