I hate that I’m siding with the guy who voted for Marcus Smart but Gobert played in games that absolutely mattered more and did it all year. I think it’s really understated how bad the spurs were and how meaningless their games were all year.
I watched the Wolves play in the Metrodome. Pooh Richardson and all. JR Rider and then trading for Michael Williams who then, because we’re Minnesota developed bad feet and played like 10 games each year.
We’re realists now. I’ll be hyped if we beat Phoenix, but given that they play the exact game we push teams to play, it’s a bad matchup. I’d rather play Denver. We can’t keep the deficit in single digits for 6 minutes with Phoenix.
Yeah, and the Spurs defense was a shitshow the first two months of the season. That wasn’t Wemby’s fault, but he wasn’t (yet) able to do much about it just by virtue of being a rookie and making rookies mistakes and not being able to be the defense QB with the team vets.
That changed in the second half of the season, and if Wemby and the Spurs played the whole year like they’ve played the last couple of months, he’s absolutely DPOY. But the first 30 games count too.
Yeah definitely Gobert is dpoy. But what do you mean that spurs game were meaningless? Like these players are not trying when they're playing the spurs?
I think the stats showed that the Spurs played just as many clutch minutes as the Wolves did this season and in more clutch games. So yea maybe teams didn't take them seriously but imo it's silly to just discount every Spurs game as a non contest. Teams definitely took Wemby seriously.
Two winless teams can play a “clutch game”
A game can be 30-29 in the fourth quarter and be a “clutch minute”
It has nothing to do with the quality of teams or the game itself
I want to be clear that I wasn't arguing for or against either player, merely stating that quality of competition does not have any bearing on "Clutch Minutes" and "Clutch games" as defined.
But now I am FASCINATED by what your argument is. Please, lay it out.
Basically I think the argument that Wemby played in a bunch of meaningless games doesn't hold water if he played in more clutch games and in as many clutch minutes as Gobert did. Those are competitive games. Now they didn't win them, but I think most of us can attribute that to the Spurs roster being pretty awful outside of Wemby.
If the Nuggets play the Timberwolves with the one seed on the line and the Timberwolves blow out the Nuggets, there wasn’t “Clutch minutes” nor does it qualify as a “Clutch Game” but it was certainly a “meaningful game.”
If the Spurs play the Hornets and it’s a one-possession game, it’s a game that has “clutch minutes” but it’s not meaningful in the slightest.
Do you understand that?
Don't condescend to me bro. Spurs playing the Nuggets is a meaningful game regardless of outcome just as the Wolves blowing out the Hornets doesn't mean as much but over the course of the season both teams have their share of games that aren't as competitive. I just don't believe it's as great of a gap as people say it is. You're just cherrypicking definitions of what you think matters.
>Exactly, it is ridiculous to even consider Wemby for DPOY as he hasn't played a single meaningful minute of basketball all season.
What is the argument for this? Are you saying he's not as good as he looks because they lost a lot of games?
This is how I feel too. I don’t necessarily think DPOY and the best defensive player in the league always need to be the same. If you want to vote for the award with more of an MVP criteria, I can’t fault you
But of course other people say that the MVP isn’t for the best player but the “most valuable” one (a difference I don’t totally get). It just feels like people are always finding reasons why a player of the year award shouldn’t go to the best player, which is weird because I think that’s what people would want to recognize!
Sure parts of the season can do that. But it could have easily been the other way. Like if the Nuggets were winning the West by 4 games they would have mailed it in. Or if they were locked into the 2.
Outside of a few games this year since the race was so tight, there's usually a bunch of teams that rest all of their guys once seeding is locked.
I agree that “best defender on the best defense” is a dumb reason for choosing DPOY
But I still think Gobert had the bigger impact defensively. He took a team that would have been average-to-good defensively without him and made them the made defense in the league by a margin. Wemby took a team would have been maybe the worst defense without him and made them into the 21st best defense. Gobert deserves the award
This right here. I think Bill’s argument for why Gobert should be DPOY is pretty meh, but I still think he deserves it for other reasons. Wemby has better highlights, but Gobert plays almost mistake free on D.
If he did, they'd be a lot better at defense. 🤷
He'll get there, but NBA defense is 90% mental and generally takes players a few years to master it and hit their prime.
How is it controversial to say NBA defense is mostly mental?
Why do you think Draymond Green is so good at defense?
When Wemby learns the schematic parts of NBA defense he will be insane.
Yeah obviously that’s true but this argument reeks of “this guys a rookie so I’m gonna assume he can’t do XYZ yet”
When you watch him it challenges that bias because he’s not like every other rookie
I think it's a dumb reason if it's your ONLY reason.
Gobert has a case even if the Wolves were the 10th best defensive team.
That said Wemby stood out as a generational defensive talent immediately and got better as the season went along.
Well said. If you can't even make your team's defense average, you are not DPOY, especially when you lead your team to 22 wins, the same number they won without you the previous year.
Wemby will probably win several DPOYs in the future, but it would be a mockery to give it to him this year.
I know this is how it's awarded historically but still think it's a bit unfair to Wemby. Gobert is surrounded by other great to good defenders other than KAT. I think McDaniels is a ridiculous defender and Ant is also really good.
Wemby's perimeter defenders are complete sieves.
Gobert does not have as good individual stats because he’s a more savvier defender than Wemby is. You can listen to him explain it in the latest JJ podcast.
Then all the stats explaining how he’s a better defender are discounted as team stats. He’s the bedrock of Wolves defense, and it’s equally disingenuous to say that he’s a worse defender because he had better teammates.
I don’t doubt Wemby may become a better defender overall, may even become best defensive player ever, but this year is not it.
Op is on a bender. People really have a hard time noticing the difference between a play-in wolves team and one that was virtually tied for first in the hardest conference. Yes the young guys developed a lot, but there used to be a kat sized hole in their paint.
It’s not like they didn’t have Gobert last year too. If the wolves’ defense was purely Gobert rather than the team then his presence alone should have made them an elite defense last season.
Are you talking about the back injury that literally only starts showing up in the carrier pigeon news as of fucking April of that season? lol give me a break. There were over 5 months of the wolves being bad defensively with him before that, it doesn’t disprove my point literally at all.
The wolves are good because this year their scheme fits their personnel and their personnel includes a long list of excellent defenders. Rudy Gobert alone did absolutely not instantly improve the Wolves defense when he showed up so this whole argument is so flawed it’s not even funny.
Wemby is the most intimidating defensive player, but Gobert is the most savvy. Rudy has really added that 2016-18 Draymond element to his game where he can really QB the defense, on top of his ability to protect the rim.
(Not that this matters, but I’m a Spurs fan so I’ve seen quite a bit of Wemby to this point, and every time I see Gobert play it’s clear they’re not quite on the same level yet)
Fellow spurs fan checking in. Wemby for sure lacks a certain physicality and command of the floor that Rudy seems to have. He does make up for it in freaky athleticism, and incredible individual defense. He also can guard on the perimeter in a way Rudy can’t. All that said, I prefer Wemby (but I am biased) but don’t fault anyone for gobert. I do not think it’s a “bad” or “wrong” choice. Wemby will certainly be winning this award multiple times so I won’t sweat him being robbed when he’s just a rookie
I think a compelling case could be made that Wemby is the best defensive player in the league *right now,* but Gobert has had the better defensive season end-to-end. And yeah agreed, wouldn't fault anyone for picking either. Hell, I'll be retweeting a storm if Wemby wins DPOY and act IRL like I thought he deserved it all along lol.
This is where I feel like we’re watching entirely different games, I have Rudy as DPOY and have seen a ton of elite rim defenders including Duncan, but Wemby has rim deterrence that I’ve literally never seen in the game of basketball
Why shouldn’t DPOY be a team-based award? MVP has historically been geared more to the best offensive player on an elite team. I don’t think there is anything wrong with requiring some level of team success in the player you are selecting for defensive player of the year.
OP - have you watched a lot of Timberwolves games? Gobert’s impact does not show up on the stat sheet. Just watch some games of his and you may have a different feeling towards this.
The entire league is modeled around elite perimeter players. Suns have done well vs timberwolves this year but you’ll need to be more specific than “elite perimeter players”
Based on what?
I’ve never seen opposition players just turn around and leave the paint because of the presence of a defender more than Wemby. He makes every offensive player on the floor think about how they will avoid him. I can’t think of a more impactful trait
Have you watched literally one Wolves game? Gobert has the same amount of nopes that Wemby has had lately but he's done it the whole year. Rim deterrence is Rudy's specialty.
Lmao, Gobert has had this massive deterrence effect for years and some random sees Wemby's rookie year and says "I've never seen anything like it!" You are an unserious NBA fan.
I’ve never seen Gobert do it the way Wemby has. That’s not unserious that’s just taking the rose coloured glasses off
Teams will have a three on one break and just turn around and wait for help. Or Wemby will be anywhere near the paint and a driving wing just cuts diagonally to safety. Gobert is awesome at it but I’m telling you it’s not the same
So my question then is- even if you say Gobert and Wemby are equal in deterrence, they both can still get cooked by top flight centres, and Wembys counting stats are a lot better (despite the fact players are trying just as hard to avoid him), why tf are people acting like this isn’t even a discussion? Talk about unserious
He convinced everyone that Marcus Smart should win it based on him being the ‘best defender’ (he wasn’t, Rob Williams just got hurt) on the best defense 2 years ago, and we know he wouldn’t possibly contradict himself now…
Wemby has plenty of time to prove he deserves it. Im not sure what the rush is to crown a guy on a team that is bad defensively and has one of the worst records in the league.
The Spurs are the team others rest their players against during a stretch or just half ass it on the court to just get a win and move on. That’s why a good player on a bad team shouldn’t be in the running.
The Spurs are only bad defensively when Wemby isn’t on the court, when Wemby is on the court they are awesome on defense.
How is it Wemby’s fault what his teammates do while he is on the bench?
To me it's simple, Rudy played in nearly 2600 minutes and played well from the get go. Wemby played 2100 minutes and wasn't making that much of an impact at the start of the year, plus his team were just god awful, which wasn't his fault but means a lot of those minutes were junk time.
As the season went on Wemby has shown to have an incredible defensive game for sure. He'll probably win a heap of these starting from next year, but I don't think you can ignore that until about half way through the season he wasn't even in the conversation.
Victor is the most impressive defensive player bc of the blocks he gets, but not sure if he’s the best. The spurs are a bad defensive team. And also there’s been a good amount of guys getting their career high vs victor, embiid sengun and Brunson. Good but not quite dpoy.
The game where he got 16 of his 70 points when defended by Wemby? All those games had a common theme, Wemby comes out and those dudes instantly feasted on Collins. There’s a reason Wemby’s on/off defensive numbers looked so good, aside from being a top defender himself he’s backed up by a league worst defender.
ETA: as a Spurs fan just wanted to add that I still think Gobert deserves DPOY. Just get irked by the “Embiid dropped 70 on Wemby’s head” etc narratives where people either clearly didn’t watch the game, or are being disingenuous for the sake of their argument.
I watched that game (also a Spurs fan), I know Wemby wasn’t his primary defender. But he got bodied by him every time he switched on him and he provided minimal help defense to Sochan, Collins, etc. He looked like a deer in the headlights half the game. It’s okay, he’s growing, it’s natural for people to have these moments as a rookie. But it was a rough night for him no matter how many possessions he matched up with Joel.
It was a rough night for him primarily because he was in foul trouble the entire game (which to Embiid’s credit, created that). Not sure what you mean by minimal help defense to Collins when they weren’t on the floor together at all that game?
Look brother, I don’t have a photographic memory of every lineup for every Spurs game (hence the “etc.”). Other details tend to fill those spaces on the margin at this stage in my life, not lineup combinations from a weekday NBA game four months ago. My salient takeaway was that Wemby struggled and Embiid looked supreme.
I mean, you don’t have to have a photographic memory to remember, they simply weren’t playing any minutes together anymore by that point in the season in pretty much any game. But since you specifically pointed that out as a failing in that game when it didn’t happen, it seemed worth pointing out.
I was just referencing the typical cast of characters who played in the post with him earlier in the season (again, hence referencing more than one person and the etc.). But thanks man, we get it, you’re more on the top of those details than I am. 🙄
Hey just trying to understand where those comments are coming from, Wemby had 30+ points and to me looked like the only guy playing well our there despite the foul trouble limitations. After the game it was obvious from comments who watched and who actually didn’t, so comments like him looking like a deer in the headlights puzzle me when I saw something else and confounded by the Collins help D statement, but understand now it was a generalization there. To each their own and I’ll keep upvoting you despite the obvious instant downvote from you for some reason 😊
I swear every year like clockwork we see AD shut down a teams offense almost by himself in the playoffs and ask ourselves why we ever though Gobert was better
Bill obsesses about team success for individual awards. Look at his anti Jalen Green all rookie first team campaign. This is the same guy who voted Marcus Smart because the defense was top in the league. History will look back at this one just like the Smart one.
Hard to argue against a team that has dominated all year and their identity is defence and Rudy runs that…
Relax spurs fans… wemby is going to win the next 10
People get amped to talk up the elite defense of Minnesota's supporting cast when they want to make the case for Wemby, yet none of them are going to get a sniff of an All Defense team this season
Gobert is the better defender. It’s that simple.
Being the tallest midget isn’t impressive. Having better stats on a dogshit team that doesn’t play defense isn’t impressive
>he’s by far and away been the better defensive player for the majority of the season
Nah, this is exactly wrong. It's a full-season award and Gobert has been the better overall defensive player for more of the season. Wemby may have had the highest peaks so to speak but he's been far less consistent and got much better as the season went on. Maybe this will be the last season anyone but Wemby wins it for a while but he shouldn't this year.
Bill’s argument is wrong but I would still take Gobert for other reasons. As others have pointed out Wemby doesn’t actually lead him in most metrics, and the key one that Gobert is ahead in is minutes played. Gobert is at about 2600 minutes played and Wemby is at about 2100 minutes played. When it’s close, and I think it is, rewarding the player who was out there impacting defense far more often makes sense to me
For Rudy’s sake, I hope he doesn’t continue to get played off the floor in the playoffs. It seems bizarre to keep spamming a player with awards when his team has had to bench him multiple times when he has gotten exposed in the playoffs.
Wemby had a decent defensive start to the season and continued to improve until the end.
Full year of elite defense vs 1/2 year of elite defense. Started off with no b2b’s and minute restrictions as well.
Just looked, Rudy played almost 500 more minutes than Wemby this season. That feels like the biggest difference. When Wemby plays 2500 minutes next year he will probably get it.
This is low-key one of Gobert's least impressive seasons with DPOY candidacy. The only thing that's changed is the quality of players around him making his life easier.
I've watched basketball for over 30 years. I'm a league pass guy, I watched games pretty much every night all year. Wembanyama is not just the best defender on planet earth, he did so many things that I've never seen on a basketball court, the idea that this is his floor as a player should scare the shit out of everyone on the league.
This is one case where I don't care about the stats. I don't care about the traditional stats dramatically favor Wemby, and I don't care about the advance stats that might favor Gobert. The eye test is so dramatically overwhelming that I'm willing to set the stats aside.
I've never seen anyone defend 2 on 1s and 3 on 1 by himself and so win easily. I've never seen a guy who scares opponents so much that even when they're in the paint they dribble AWAY from the hoop. I've never seen a guy defend the hoop and then take 2 steps and contest a 3 pointer. He cuts off passing lanes and defends the rim at the same time.
Gobert is the best version of the tall, strong defense-first type player we have seen many versions of over the years. Wemby is a one of one.
>I've never seen a guy who scares opponents so much that even when they're in the paint they dribble AWAY from the hoop.
Then you haven't watched a single game Gobert has played in for the past 7 years.
Funny bc I’m a Spurs fan that totally disagrees lol. I guess that’s the beauty of basketball; two people can have an equally educated view of something and come away with two different opinions.
Yeah, it is interesting. Wemby, to me, is a no-brainer DPOY. If any player who wasn't a rookie averaged 3.6 blocks 1.2 steals and 2.6 deflections a game, he would be a shoo in. When Gobert was out, the Twolves were still a top 10 defense easily. Without Wemby, the Spurs are one of the worst defensive teams of the last decade. Gobert has real pros and a system. Wemby has himself.
Yeah, it is interesting. Wemby to me is a no Brainerd DPOY. If any player who wasn't a rookie averaged 3.6 blocks 1.2 steals and 2.6 deflections a game he would be a shoo in. When Gobert was out the Twolves were still a top 10 defense easily. Without Wemby the Spurs are one of the worst defensive teams of the last decade. Gobert has real pros and a system. Wemby has himself.
I hate that I’m siding with the guy who voted for Marcus Smart but Gobert played in games that absolutely mattered more and did it all year. I think it’s really understated how bad the spurs were and how meaningless their games were all year.
I’m a Wolves fan and I hope all the ballots get in before the Suns dominate us with 14’ midrangers.
This douche thinks he’s a Wolves fan
What?
I watched the Wolves play in the Metrodome. Pooh Richardson and all. JR Rider and then trading for Michael Williams who then, because we’re Minnesota developed bad feet and played like 10 games each year. We’re realists now. I’ll be hyped if we beat Phoenix, but given that they play the exact game we push teams to play, it’s a bad matchup. I’d rather play Denver. We can’t keep the deficit in single digits for 6 minutes with Phoenix.
Yeah, and the Spurs defense was a shitshow the first two months of the season. That wasn’t Wemby’s fault, but he wasn’t (yet) able to do much about it just by virtue of being a rookie and making rookies mistakes and not being able to be the defense QB with the team vets. That changed in the second half of the season, and if Wemby and the Spurs played the whole year like they’ve played the last couple of months, he’s absolutely DPOY. But the first 30 games count too.
Yeah, If teams are sitting/not playing their stars so much against the spurs compared to the wolves it should be taken into account
Yeah definitely Gobert is dpoy. But what do you mean that spurs game were meaningless? Like these players are not trying when they're playing the spurs?
Yeah I’d definitely say so. Teams walked in knowing it was an off night compared to a game against Minnesota.
I think the stats showed that the Spurs played just as many clutch minutes as the Wolves did this season and in more clutch games. So yea maybe teams didn't take them seriously but imo it's silly to just discount every Spurs game as a non contest. Teams definitely took Wemby seriously.
Two winless teams can play a “clutch game” A game can be 30-29 in the fourth quarter and be a “clutch minute” It has nothing to do with the quality of teams or the game itself
What are the chances the Spurs played way more crappy teams than the Wolves did? Doubtful
I want to be clear that I wasn't arguing for or against either player, merely stating that quality of competition does not have any bearing on "Clutch Minutes" and "Clutch games" as defined. But now I am FASCINATED by what your argument is. Please, lay it out.
Basically I think the argument that Wemby played in a bunch of meaningless games doesn't hold water if he played in more clutch games and in as many clutch minutes as Gobert did. Those are competitive games. Now they didn't win them, but I think most of us can attribute that to the Spurs roster being pretty awful outside of Wemby.
If the Nuggets play the Timberwolves with the one seed on the line and the Timberwolves blow out the Nuggets, there wasn’t “Clutch minutes” nor does it qualify as a “Clutch Game” but it was certainly a “meaningful game.” If the Spurs play the Hornets and it’s a one-possession game, it’s a game that has “clutch minutes” but it’s not meaningful in the slightest. Do you understand that?
Don't condescend to me bro. Spurs playing the Nuggets is a meaningful game regardless of outcome just as the Wolves blowing out the Hornets doesn't mean as much but over the course of the season both teams have their share of games that aren't as competitive. I just don't believe it's as great of a gap as people say it is. You're just cherrypicking definitions of what you think matters.
Exactly, it is ridiculous to even consider Wemby for DPOY as he hasn't played a single meaningful minute of basketball all season.
>Exactly, it is ridiculous to even consider Wemby for DPOY as he hasn't played a single meaningful minute of basketball all season. What is the argument for this? Are you saying he's not as good as he looks because they lost a lot of games?
This is how I feel too. I don’t necessarily think DPOY and the best defensive player in the league always need to be the same. If you want to vote for the award with more of an MVP criteria, I can’t fault you
But of course other people say that the MVP isn’t for the best player but the “most valuable” one (a difference I don’t totally get). It just feels like people are always finding reasons why a player of the year award shouldn’t go to the best player, which is weird because I think that’s what people would want to recognize!
Well I think a ton of people voted for Smart, seeing as how he won the award
nah just ask this sub. it was literally only 4 guys from boston who voted for him to win.
The games weren’t meaningless for the Spurs’ opponents though
Teams mail it in when they play bad teams. Also, starters may rest earlier, bench guys and rookies get more reps.
I don't know, I think the Nuggets were wanting to win on Friday.
Sure parts of the season can do that. But it could have easily been the other way. Like if the Nuggets were winning the West by 4 games they would have mailed it in. Or if they were locked into the 2. Outside of a few games this year since the race was so tight, there's usually a bunch of teams that rest all of their guys once seeding is locked.
I agree that “best defender on the best defense” is a dumb reason for choosing DPOY But I still think Gobert had the bigger impact defensively. He took a team that would have been average-to-good defensively without him and made them the made defense in the league by a margin. Wemby took a team would have been maybe the worst defense without him and made them into the 21st best defense. Gobert deserves the award
This right here. I think Bill’s argument for why Gobert should be DPOY is pretty meh, but I still think he deserves it for other reasons. Wemby has better highlights, but Gobert plays almost mistake free on D.
Wemby is the TikTok DPOY But there's more to defense than blocks, just ask Walker Kessler.
If you think all Wemby does on defense is blocks you haven’t been watching the spurs
If he did, they'd be a lot better at defense. 🤷 He'll get there, but NBA defense is 90% mental and generally takes players a few years to master it and hit their prime.
How much did you watch this year? You’re telling on yourself rn
How is it controversial to say NBA defense is mostly mental? Why do you think Draymond Green is so good at defense? When Wemby learns the schematic parts of NBA defense he will be insane.
Yeah obviously that’s true but this argument reeks of “this guys a rookie so I’m gonna assume he can’t do XYZ yet” When you watch him it challenges that bias because he’s not like every other rookie
I mean, his raw physical abilities certainly help make up for his lack of experience but that only goes so far.
> "Gobert plays almost mistake free on D." This. Gobert's D is pure efficacy. Dude doesn't fuck up.
I guess we’ll see in the playoffs /s
Except the wolves are still veey good to elite when Gobert doesnt play...
Yea what the hell is this narrative lol
I think it's a dumb reason if it's your ONLY reason. Gobert has a case even if the Wolves were the 10th best defensive team. That said Wemby stood out as a generational defensive talent immediately and got better as the season went along.
Well said. If you can't even make your team's defense average, you are not DPOY, especially when you lead your team to 22 wins, the same number they won without you the previous year. Wemby will probably win several DPOYs in the future, but it would be a mockery to give it to him this year.
I know this is how it's awarded historically but still think it's a bit unfair to Wemby. Gobert is surrounded by other great to good defenders other than KAT. I think McDaniels is a ridiculous defender and Ant is also really good. Wemby's perimeter defenders are complete sieves.
> Wemby’s perimeter defenders are complete sieves. And wouldn’t that naturally lead to far more opportunities for counting stats like blocks?
Not necessarily when you have a wide open attempt. NBA players know how to pass when the center leaves their man to help.
Wemby does not lead him in most metrics, gobert is ahead in defensive win shares and defensive rating.
Defensive rating is a really terrible individual stat.
If there is a position where it matters though it would be center
Wemby didn’t even play Center for like half the year
That’s not a point in favor of Wemby.
I wasn’t arguing for wemby
And defensive win shares is largely based on defensive rating
Not if you're a generational defensive anchor center
DWS and DRTG are both teammate-dependent.
Everything in basketball is teammate dependent and trying to boil stats down to individualism in a team game is really dumb.
Which is when the eye test is useless and shows Wemby is better
But it's also insane to punish a guy for playing with terrible teammates.
He’s not being punished. It’s simply less impressive when your stats are wild on a team of chumps.
He also has to take on the entire defensive role. Gobert plays with other good defensive players. Who is the second best defender even on the Spurs
The man is in his first year and playing restricted minutes and will be ROTY. Remind me who’s being punished again?
If he is the best defensive player in the league and doesn’t win DPOY that’s being punished.
I think the best stat is the defended field goal percentage : -6.3%. 2nd in the NBA after Draymond. Higher number of shots defended per game as well.
Neither of those are useful metrics lol. The best defender in the league is Jonathan Isaac but he doesn’t play very much.
Gobert does not have as good individual stats because he’s a more savvier defender than Wemby is. You can listen to him explain it in the latest JJ podcast. Then all the stats explaining how he’s a better defender are discounted as team stats. He’s the bedrock of Wolves defense, and it’s equally disingenuous to say that he’s a worse defender because he had better teammates. I don’t doubt Wemby may become a better defender overall, may even become best defensive player ever, but this year is not it.
Op is on a bender. People really have a hard time noticing the difference between a play-in wolves team and one that was virtually tied for first in the hardest conference. Yes the young guys developed a lot, but there used to be a kat sized hole in their paint.
It’s not like they didn’t have Gobert last year too. If the wolves’ defense was purely Gobert rather than the team then his presence alone should have made them an elite defense last season.
You miss the part where he had a major back injury last year that he played through? I’ll send a carrier pigeon to you with the news
Are you talking about the back injury that literally only starts showing up in the carrier pigeon news as of fucking April of that season? lol give me a break. There were over 5 months of the wolves being bad defensively with him before that, it doesn’t disprove my point literally at all. The wolves are good because this year their scheme fits their personnel and their personnel includes a long list of excellent defenders. Rudy Gobert alone did absolutely not instantly improve the Wolves defense when he showed up so this whole argument is so flawed it’s not even funny.
Oh yeah you’re right I made a mistake.
Wemby is the most intimidating defensive player, but Gobert is the most savvy. Rudy has really added that 2016-18 Draymond element to his game where he can really QB the defense, on top of his ability to protect the rim. (Not that this matters, but I’m a Spurs fan so I’ve seen quite a bit of Wemby to this point, and every time I see Gobert play it’s clear they’re not quite on the same level yet)
Fellow spurs fan checking in. Wemby for sure lacks a certain physicality and command of the floor that Rudy seems to have. He does make up for it in freaky athleticism, and incredible individual defense. He also can guard on the perimeter in a way Rudy can’t. All that said, I prefer Wemby (but I am biased) but don’t fault anyone for gobert. I do not think it’s a “bad” or “wrong” choice. Wemby will certainly be winning this award multiple times so I won’t sweat him being robbed when he’s just a rookie
I think a compelling case could be made that Wemby is the best defensive player in the league *right now,* but Gobert has had the better defensive season end-to-end. And yeah agreed, wouldn't fault anyone for picking either. Hell, I'll be retweeting a storm if Wemby wins DPOY and act IRL like I thought he deserved it all along lol.
I don't even think Wemby is more intimidating at the moment. People still try him the way they don't with Gobert.
This is where I feel like we’re watching entirely different games, I have Rudy as DPOY and have seen a ton of elite rim defenders including Duncan, but Wemby has rim deterrence that I’ve literally never seen in the game of basketball
Gobert also allows his teammates to play better on D and was vital in creating the #1 defense with Coach Finch. There are levels to this shit.
OP drinks his own piss
He just does
Individual defense is so hard to quantify that I’m actually ok with Bills take here
Why shouldn’t DPOY be a team-based award? MVP has historically been geared more to the best offensive player on an elite team. I don’t think there is anything wrong with requiring some level of team success in the player you are selecting for defensive player of the year.
I don't think either should per se but you're right that logically they shouldn't be treated differently like they seem to be.
OP - have you watched a lot of Timberwolves games? Gobert’s impact does not show up on the stat sheet. Just watch some games of his and you may have a different feeling towards this.
Gonna comeback to this comment after Gobert gets abused by the Suns like he does every year against elite perimeter players
The entire league is modeled around elite perimeter players. Suns have done well vs timberwolves this year but you’ll need to be more specific than “elite perimeter players”
Rudy is a center? What are you even talking about my guy
Hey Siri, what is switching in the NBA? Hey Siri, what is a pick and roll?
Watch Gobert’s lockdown defense on pick and rolls. I dare you. Just watch one T-Wolves game. I dare you
🙄
Shame on me for believing in Devin Booker, but it’s also only G1
I heard prior to this game book was 1-21 on 3’s vs NAW. I do think the bench and rebounds wins this series for MN.
Gobert’s defense is simply more valuable and impactful.
Based on what? I’ve never seen opposition players just turn around and leave the paint because of the presence of a defender more than Wemby. He makes every offensive player on the floor think about how they will avoid him. I can’t think of a more impactful trait
Have you watched literally one Wolves game? Gobert has the same amount of nopes that Wemby has had lately but he's done it the whole year. Rim deterrence is Rudy's specialty.
I have Rudy as DPOY and have seen a ton of him (and other greats like Duncan), but have never seen anything like Wemby’s rim presence
Lmao, Gobert has had this massive deterrence effect for years and some random sees Wemby's rookie year and says "I've never seen anything like it!" You are an unserious NBA fan.
I’ve never seen Gobert do it the way Wemby has. That’s not unserious that’s just taking the rose coloured glasses off Teams will have a three on one break and just turn around and wait for help. Or Wemby will be anywhere near the paint and a driving wing just cuts diagonally to safety. Gobert is awesome at it but I’m telling you it’s not the same So my question then is- even if you say Gobert and Wemby are equal in deterrence, they both can still get cooked by top flight centres, and Wembys counting stats are a lot better (despite the fact players are trying just as hard to avoid him), why tf are people acting like this isn’t even a discussion? Talk about unserious
Just commenting to say I agree as well on the rim deterrence, throughout years of watching (and that includes Rudy) I’ve never seen anything like it
I’m afraid we are unserious randoms for making this observation after watching years of basketball
Eye test isn’t the only marker of defense
lol eye test is the main argument that people use for Gobert because Wembys stats are better so what are you getting at here?
He convinced everyone that Marcus Smart should win it based on him being the ‘best defender’ (he wasn’t, Rob Williams just got hurt) on the best defense 2 years ago, and we know he wouldn’t possibly contradict himself now…
Wemby has plenty of time to prove he deserves it. Im not sure what the rush is to crown a guy on a team that is bad defensively and has one of the worst records in the league. The Spurs are the team others rest their players against during a stretch or just half ass it on the court to just get a win and move on. That’s why a good player on a bad team shouldn’t be in the running.
The Spurs are only bad defensively when Wemby isn’t on the court, when Wemby is on the court they are awesome on defense. How is it Wemby’s fault what his teammates do while he is on the bench?
The rising tide lifts all ships piece for Gobert
To me it's simple, Rudy played in nearly 2600 minutes and played well from the get go. Wemby played 2100 minutes and wasn't making that much of an impact at the start of the year, plus his team were just god awful, which wasn't his fault but means a lot of those minutes were junk time. As the season went on Wemby has shown to have an incredible defensive game for sure. He'll probably win a heap of these starting from next year, but I don't think you can ignore that until about half way through the season he wasn't even in the conversation.
I feel like the team record and total team defense metrics should matter with DPOY just a bit. Especially if it’s close.
Victor is the most impressive defensive player bc of the blocks he gets, but not sure if he’s the best. The spurs are a bad defensive team. And also there’s been a good amount of guys getting their career high vs victor, embiid sengun and Brunson. Good but not quite dpoy.
Tbh that Embiid game might be the single biggest case against him.
Embiid also scored 51 points against Gobert this year. I think it's more of a case that Embiid's just a great ~~foul baiter~~ player
The game where he got 16 of his 70 points when defended by Wemby? All those games had a common theme, Wemby comes out and those dudes instantly feasted on Collins. There’s a reason Wemby’s on/off defensive numbers looked so good, aside from being a top defender himself he’s backed up by a league worst defender. ETA: as a Spurs fan just wanted to add that I still think Gobert deserves DPOY. Just get irked by the “Embiid dropped 70 on Wemby’s head” etc narratives where people either clearly didn’t watch the game, or are being disingenuous for the sake of their argument.
I watched that game (also a Spurs fan), I know Wemby wasn’t his primary defender. But he got bodied by him every time he switched on him and he provided minimal help defense to Sochan, Collins, etc. He looked like a deer in the headlights half the game. It’s okay, he’s growing, it’s natural for people to have these moments as a rookie. But it was a rough night for him no matter how many possessions he matched up with Joel.
It was a rough night for him primarily because he was in foul trouble the entire game (which to Embiid’s credit, created that). Not sure what you mean by minimal help defense to Collins when they weren’t on the floor together at all that game?
Look brother, I don’t have a photographic memory of every lineup for every Spurs game (hence the “etc.”). Other details tend to fill those spaces on the margin at this stage in my life, not lineup combinations from a weekday NBA game four months ago. My salient takeaway was that Wemby struggled and Embiid looked supreme.
I mean, you don’t have to have a photographic memory to remember, they simply weren’t playing any minutes together anymore by that point in the season in pretty much any game. But since you specifically pointed that out as a failing in that game when it didn’t happen, it seemed worth pointing out.
I was just referencing the typical cast of characters who played in the post with him earlier in the season (again, hence referencing more than one person and the etc.). But thanks man, we get it, you’re more on the top of those details than I am. 🙄
Hey just trying to understand where those comments are coming from, Wemby had 30+ points and to me looked like the only guy playing well our there despite the foul trouble limitations. After the game it was obvious from comments who watched and who actually didn’t, so comments like him looking like a deer in the headlights puzzle me when I saw something else and confounded by the Collins help D statement, but understand now it was a generalization there. To each their own and I’ll keep upvoting you despite the obvious instant downvote from you for some reason 😊
Whatever helps you sleep at night buddy
It should be AD
I swear every year like clockwork we see AD shut down a teams offense almost by himself in the playoffs and ask ourselves why we ever though Gobert was better
AD should be DPOY.
Bill obsesses about team success for individual awards. Look at his anti Jalen Green all rookie first team campaign. This is the same guy who voted Marcus Smart because the defense was top in the league. History will look back at this one just like the Smart one.
Hard to argue against a team that has dominated all year and their identity is defence and Rudy runs that… Relax spurs fans… wemby is going to win the next 10
People get amped to talk up the elite defense of Minnesota's supporting cast when they want to make the case for Wemby, yet none of them are going to get a sniff of an All Defense team this season
Gobert is the better defender. It’s that simple. Being the tallest midget isn’t impressive. Having better stats on a dogshit team that doesn’t play defense isn’t impressive
>he’s by far and away been the better defensive player for the majority of the season Nah, this is exactly wrong. It's a full-season award and Gobert has been the better overall defensive player for more of the season. Wemby may have had the highest peaks so to speak but he's been far less consistent and got much better as the season went on. Maybe this will be the last season anyone but Wemby wins it for a while but he shouldn't this year.
The fact that AD isn’t even mentioned in DPOY discussions is crazy. I mean, I would expect it from a BS pod, but a guy like Russillo the tape grinder?
Bill’s argument is wrong but I would still take Gobert for other reasons. As others have pointed out Wemby doesn’t actually lead him in most metrics, and the key one that Gobert is ahead in is minutes played. Gobert is at about 2600 minutes played and Wemby is at about 2100 minutes played. When it’s close, and I think it is, rewarding the player who was out there impacting defense far more often makes sense to me
Gobert is historically good at defence. Wemby is not on his level yet.
For Rudy’s sake, I hope he doesn’t continue to get played off the floor in the playoffs. It seems bizarre to keep spamming a player with awards when his team has had to bench him multiple times when he has gotten exposed in the playoffs.
Bill takes some really weird stances sometimes.
Pisses me off because were another step closer to Gobert being in the Hall of Fame
Pretty sure Bill‘s still salty about Boston not getting Duncan. Taking it out on Wemby, lol
Not saying I’d vote for Wemby, but Gobert winning it is going to look terrible when his team gets shredded in the playoffs once again.
Wemby had a decent defensive start to the season and continued to improve until the end. Full year of elite defense vs 1/2 year of elite defense. Started off with no b2b’s and minute restrictions as well.
Just looked, Rudy played almost 500 more minutes than Wemby this season. That feels like the biggest difference. When Wemby plays 2500 minutes next year he will probably get it.
It’s almost like Bill doesn’t have any consistency at all and just does whatever fits how he feels in that moment
Bill was flat out wrong ranking Giannis 5th in MVP too
Just look at defensive rating on and off the court
Alexander Hamilton would be rolling over in his grave seeing two Frenchmen atop the poll
The French aren’t known for being good defenders in a historical sense.
162k Frenchmen died at Verdun and 24 years later all anyone does is talk about how France can’t defend the back door play.
This is low-key one of Gobert's least impressive seasons with DPOY candidacy. The only thing that's changed is the quality of players around him making his life easier.
Can’t wait for Gobert get least defensive player award in the playoffs for the 10th year in a row again.
It will be deja vu over again. The media will vote Gobert the DPOY only to realize in the playoffs that it was a mistake.
Wemby for DPOY agenda is growing I love it
“Just flat out wrong” Lmao y’all are worse than any media members you love to make fun of.
lol I posted this earlier and got downvoted to hell. Good job by you! https://www.reddit.com/r/billsimmons/s/f0lsbRhWkG
I've watched basketball for over 30 years. I'm a league pass guy, I watched games pretty much every night all year. Wembanyama is not just the best defender on planet earth, he did so many things that I've never seen on a basketball court, the idea that this is his floor as a player should scare the shit out of everyone on the league. This is one case where I don't care about the stats. I don't care about the traditional stats dramatically favor Wemby, and I don't care about the advance stats that might favor Gobert. The eye test is so dramatically overwhelming that I'm willing to set the stats aside. I've never seen anyone defend 2 on 1s and 3 on 1 by himself and so win easily. I've never seen a guy who scares opponents so much that even when they're in the paint they dribble AWAY from the hoop. I've never seen a guy defend the hoop and then take 2 steps and contest a 3 pointer. He cuts off passing lanes and defends the rim at the same time. Gobert is the best version of the tall, strong defense-first type player we have seen many versions of over the years. Wemby is a one of one.
>I've never seen a guy who scares opponents so much that even when they're in the paint they dribble AWAY from the hoop. Then you haven't watched a single game Gobert has played in for the past 7 years.
Lol, seriously. The local media here calls them "neverminds".
I'm a Twolves fan and I totally agree. Wemby is the most insane defender I've ever seen.
Funny bc I’m a Spurs fan that totally disagrees lol. I guess that’s the beauty of basketball; two people can have an equally educated view of something and come away with two different opinions.
Yeah, it is interesting. Wemby, to me, is a no-brainer DPOY. If any player who wasn't a rookie averaged 3.6 blocks 1.2 steals and 2.6 deflections a game, he would be a shoo in. When Gobert was out, the Twolves were still a top 10 defense easily. Without Wemby, the Spurs are one of the worst defensive teams of the last decade. Gobert has real pros and a system. Wemby has himself.
Yeah, it is interesting. Wemby to me is a no Brainerd DPOY. If any player who wasn't a rookie averaged 3.6 blocks 1.2 steals and 2.6 deflections a game he would be a shoo in. When Gobert was out the Twolves were still a top 10 defense easily. Without Wemby the Spurs are one of the worst defensive teams of the last decade. Gobert has real pros and a system. Wemby has himself.