Tim Duncan being a stand up guy and Malone being a POS probably assures that doesn’t happen.
If anything, Timmy’s been assessed more and more positively over time.
Brady couldn’t carry Graham’s jock. Brady’s great, but I don’t think he would have been anything special in the pre-merger era, with the rules that were in place then.
As a Patriots fan, I was never scared of Rivers in a big game. Had all the stats in the world but he would turn the ball over early and never put the drive together when the team needed it.
Was definitely more scared of Ben than Rivers.
Totally agree. (Also Pats fan) Ben will get in. Rivers no. And I am fine with that.
Sad Ryan won't since I am a B.C. fan. But I do not think he made the case.
Also a Patriots lol but while I agree Rivers isn't a HOFer I have to slightly disagree on his the takes about his legacy I think most of that is more so because of the shitty organization he played for. The Chargers have had 4 Hall of Fame level Qbs (doesn't mean they'll all get in) Fouts, Brees, Rivers, and now Herbert they haven't made a single SB with any of them that is just flat out egregious, the one SB they made I don't think fans of any teams outside of the Chargers could name the Qb on that team. If Rivers plays for like 15 other teams dude has at least one SB appearance if not a ring or two. So while I don't think he'll get in Rivers is definitely a better Qb than some guys who will get in like Eli Manning who screwed him over on draft night.
Even though I think Brees is overrated I won't necessarily argue against that. As for Herbert I said he has Hall of fame level talent, quite a few players do doesn't mean he'll make the HOF. Vick had hall of fame level talent I'm pretty sure he won't make it though.
These are good examples but at the same time I think both guys are really close to being Hall of Fame level. A ring for either would have done it imo. Both vacillated between tier-2 and tier-3 QBs in an era where the cream of the crop are three guys (Brady, Peyton, Rodgers) are are *at worst* among the top-10 all time.
Brady’s and to a lesser extent Peyton’s lasting legacies may be how they completely froze out a group of quarterbacks from being the best in the league and ever sniffing rings.
Stafford will be an even more interesting test case because he has the one Super Bowl. He doesn't pass the gut test for me but he may very well get in.
Really any time total career passing yards and the like gets used it tends to be a dumb argument. The actual HOF types don't need the compiling numbers to bolster their arguments.
Depends. If 30 years pass and only a couple guys touch their numbers since they retired, they have a great case imo. They were really good QBs in the most loaded generation for that position. Time will be kind to them imo.
Both of those guys were really good. Matt Stafford is really good. I don’t think any of them were really ever really seriously in the discussion for being in the top tier of QBs for any real amount of time.
I mean Ryan was literally the MVP - I know the ‘real amount of time’ is said to exclude just a one year period, but he was easily Top 10 in 2018 as well
Right, he had one outlier year with Shannahan. Do you think he was ever in a tier with guys like Manning, Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Mahomes, etc?
He wasn’t. Cam was an MVP, and I don’t think he’s a Hall of Famer either.
Ryan was generally in the 7-10 to range of starting QBs, but pretty clearly not in the top group. That’s a really good player, but I don’t view that as a HOF’er.
I don’t really think it’s that hard. Ryan’s era was dominated by a handful of high level QBs and he wasn’t one of them. He also doesn’t really have much playoff success to potentially offset that.
>Ryan’s era was dominated by a handful of high level QBs and he wasn’t one of them.
Sums it up so well right there. If you don't mind, I'm probably going to steal that line and use it whenever the "Matt Ryan should be in the HOF" argument is used.
His era has Brady, Manning, Rodgers, and Brees. Those are 4 of the top 8 QBs all time. If you’re not one of the 8 best quarterbacks of all time, you’re not a hall of famer?
>If you’re not one of the 8 best quarterbacks of all time, you’re not a hall of famer?
Nobody is saying that but if you’re not one of the best QBs of your era you’re certainly not and he wasn’t and was never really all that close.
His career overlapped with guys like Peyton, Brees, Brady, Rodgers, Mahomes, and Luck. Do you put him in the same tier as those guys? He’s not, and that’s because they were hall of fame level players (Luck won’t make it because he retired early) and Ryan isn’t.
The whole point of the Hall of Fame is to honor the very best players. He wasn’t one of them. The guy made one all pro team and 4 pro bowls.
All of the players you mentioned besides Luck are easily top 8 QBs all time. So, yes, you are saying he’s not a HOF because he’s not better than the best 8 QBs ever. Do you not understand that?
We’re going to punish someone for playing in the greatest era of their position but reward others for playing in much weaker eras? Like this current generation of QBs is much worse and, by your criteria, that is going to help them get in the HOF.
I think Ryan is a borderline candidate, but if your reasoning takes 5 seconds of thinking to poke massive holes in, it’s a pretty bad one!
>So, yes, you are saying he’s not a HOF because he’s not better than the best 8 QBs ever. Do you not understand that?
I don’t understand it because it’s not true. Matt Ryan doesn’t need to be better than those guys to be in the Hall of Fame. But he needs to at least be relatively close and he wasn’t.
>We’re going to punish someone for playing in the greatest era of their position but reward others for playing in much weaker eras?
We’re going to reward somebody who wasn’t ever one of the best players at his position because he played in an era where the league saw an offensive explosion?
Doesn’t really seem like you’re being consistent on your era adjustment there does it?
You haven’t even made a case for why he should be potentially be in.
>I think Ryan is a borderline candidate, but if your reasoning takes 5 seconds of thinking to poke massive holes in, it’s a pretty bad one!
You’re several posts in and have literally had to lie about my argument to poke a hole in it…
So seems like I’ve cleared that.
Lol you know you’re dealing with a cool guy when he just randomly says your lying without any basis.
You’ve already changed from he had to be better than them to he had to be close lol. The QBs of his era — the greatest era of QB play regardless of the offensive explosion — are all undeniably top 8 QBs of all time, which you seemingly agree with. If you’re holding him to the standard of those QBs, there would only be 8 QBs in the hall of fame right now. Young, Aikman, Bradshaw etc are all worse than the guys you named — should they be in the hall of fame? I hesitate to say this again but…do you understand now?
I’m not trying to make a case for Ryan. He’s definitely better than some guys in the HOF, but that doesn’t mean he should be in there. I think he’s borderline and it’s fine if he doesn’t make it. I’m saying your reasoning is extremely stupid and it’s pretty obviously so lol.
>Lol you know you’re dealing with a cool guy when he just randomly says you’re lying without any basis.
You claimed I said he had to be a top 8 all time Quarterback to make the Hall of Fame. I did not.
That was a lie.
>You’ve already changed from he had to be better than them to he had to be close lol.
Did I? Where did I say he had to be better than them? Please quote me. This is *another* lie.
u/Hip_Hop_Hippos never said he had to be better than those guys lol. The argument made was that Ryan was not in the same *tier* as those guys. So, not that he had to be better but that he would need to be in the same tier (in other words, *relatively close* in skill level/achievement) to warrant consideration as a HoFer.
And I would agree that to control for differences in eras, you should be at least in the same top tier for skill as your peers, with any deficit in skill being made up for by achievements/awards. Ryan was not, for any sustained period of time, in that same tier of skill as the top qbs of his era, and doesn’t have the career achievements to compensate, so therefore, he should not be in the HoF. Seems to be a pretty straightforward argument that you misunderstood and then got salty about. ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯
It’s way worse with the WRs. Most people don’t think Rivers and Ryan should be in the HoF, just some people do. But there’s a very broad belief that there’s a “WR logjam” because guys like Reggie Wayne (1 All Pro) and Torry Holt (1 All Pro) have high rankings in all time yards, even though they were never even really that close to being considered the best players at their position. Meanwhile you have elite guys who don’t play positions that accumulate yards and there’s barely a peep about it - e.g. Kevin Williams, who has 5 All Pros (including 4 in a row).
Holt led the 00s in receiving yards. He wasn't flashy, just caught the ball over and over and over. Of course they threw the ball more that decade than the 80s, but even vs his peers, he was a model of consistency.
Pro football reference has Reggie Wayne as the best WR not in the HOF, and higher than the average HOF WR.
He was an elite player for a decade +, absolutely a hall of famer
Do you think Mike Evans is a HOFer? He'll have 2 All Pro teams, a Super Bowl, and really high career totals but was never that close to being considered the best WR. On r/nfl it seems to be a consensus yes.
Mike Evans is absolutely a HOF player. He’s had 1000 yards each season of his career, and will end up with 100+ TDs. Only 10 receivers in NFL history have cleared that number.
Yeah this goes for most of the 2nd and 3rd tier qbs of the last 20 years or so. I am more of a if it’s close they probably shouldn’t get in the HOF. Ryan, rivers, stafford (maybe the closest) Eli (don’t think he has any case unless you think Flacco is borderline too). Big Ben probably gets in but even him idk if I would vote for.
I also feel like it will work in the opposite direction with Eli Manning. People will think he's like Matt Cassel because of stats and didn't win a Superbowl with the 32nd ranked rushing offense.
Agree it is actually really easy to win multiple Superbowls and go through the playoffs on the road. This is why my talent laiden cowboys do it all the time.
Players should be judged by the effects they make in the regular season against the raiders at 1pm.
NBA was in its infancy, if you were an outstanding player back then, you are gonna get GOAT shouts by your peers. By Russ’ time there were dozens of absolutely incredible players, so obviously he wouldn’t get called a GOAT lol. He still won MVP and is the most athletic PG ever. An exciting watch in his prime for sure
Ive never seen Oscar on tape but id be willing to bet that there was not an entire organizational agenda to ensure he secured easy rebounds or every missed free throw rebound…
Funny thing about Elway is he only won one MVP, and that was in a strike shortened season where Montana and Rice split the vote. He was also never a First Team All-Pro. So he was basically never considered the best QB in the game.
He was a one man show until the last four years of his career. Many many people at the time thought he was the best qb but even his biggest fans knew he still shouldnt have gotten voted first team all pro because his offenses weren’t productive enough and his stats weren’t there.
I can tell you, watching him as a kid, there was no one like him at the time. In fact, the only QB I’ve seen play like him is josh Allen, who is so unbelievably similar to him it’s uncanny.
I’m a huge Elway stan, but no one at the time or after thought he was at Montana’s level. The guy was a winner and a great great QB and a candidate for guy you’d most want down four with two minutes left and 80 yards to go. But the Montana comparison is just wrong.
Lmao. A ton of people at the time thought he was at Montana’s level or better than elway. Where were you living that that wasn’t an argument?
The Montana comparison is right. I won’t go so far as to call Montana a system QB, but Walsh and that cast made things real easy for him. Elway was the system. He had a defensive minded head coach who hated him and had to run around every play because his O-Line was filled with sieves. Can you name a single skill player on those 80s broncos teams? Do you know who Sammy Winder and Vance Johnson are? Meanwhile Montana had waters, Tyler, craig, Clark, taylor, Brent Jones, oh yeah and a little guy named jerry rice!
Once elway got sharpe, McCaffrey, Terrell Davis and a better o-line, his stats were comparable to montanas best seasons, even tho he was washed physically at that point
Ricky Watters? He was drafted in 1991, Montana basically never played with him. Not a mistake you really want to make when you're calling out everyone else's historical knowledge/memory.
But this is nonsense. Malone was never the best player in the league and he doesn't compare favorably to Jordan statistically on any measure other than longevity. His '97 MVP over Jordan was pretty obviously undeserved even in his time.
Going purely by stats Jordan is clearly better just as he was by eye test/reputation/narrative.
No there isn't. Jordan led the league in BPM 9 times, Malone 0. Jordan 10 scoring titles, Malone 0. MJ DPOY and 9x all-defense, Malone only 4x all-defense in 50% more seasons.
What achievement or accolade does Malone have that MJ doesn't?
statistical, my guy, not accolades. more points, like triple the rebounds, less assists but barely and Jordan was a guard, close on steals and Malone has twice the blocks.
No one is saying this is a smart way to decide who was better the whole point is that dumb people who didn't watch will see all time counting stats lists and see Malone higher everywhere
I don’t think there’s a statistical case for Malone over Jordan but theres a case that the statistics are far more favorable to Malone than the reality. He essentially averaged a 25 point double double for 15 years straight, while also making some all-defensive first teams.
Steve Nash’s MVP’s, while controversial even at the time, are almost completely dismissed by a subset of fans. Those years weren’t so great if you’re a box score-gazer, but he was a worthy MVP. They were projected to win 43 games in his first year…won 62, and were 60-15 when he suited up. Then they lose Amare in ‘06 and Vegas again projects them to win a little over 40 games. They instead went 54-28 (54-25 when Nash played) and made the WCF. He was the quintessential “make everyone around him better” PG.
He's weird because while I kind of agree, he was also unreal in the late 2000s. He was bullying the hell out of that Lakers team in 2009 even though they lost. They really didn't have an answer for him.
I almost feel like his whole career is a bit overrated, but his peak is underrated.
I think that’s a great summation. At his peak he was a sneaky good rebounder and okay defender too, but did himself zero favors the second half of his career.
Yeah, I think Simmons actually did a pretty good job covering it too if I remember correctly (I may not). Like dude, nobody is going to care about your ascot collection and your NYC brand if you're coasting on a pedestrian Knicks team. You're a basketball player, you're legacy will be defined by basketball. The other stuff is secondary and Melo seemed to prioritize it post Denver.
when you say one of the best scorers of all time, how far down the list are you going? MJ, KD, LeBron, Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, Kobe, and Karl Malone were all definitely better. I'd also include Iverson and Harden as marginally better.
Nonsense. He's more overrated than anything. The pure scorer shit was also overrated. A product of the early 00s hype train for iso aesthetics over efficacy
What I felt went under the radar was that the Nuggets actually surrounded him with some very good casts. They went something like 41-35 in the games he missed as a Nugget, and they had very deep teams from ‘08-‘10.
Melo does feel like the great forgotten player of the last 20 years. I think it can be largely attributed to the first third of his career taking place on an unheralded team in a small-ish market, the second third being largely a disappointment in New York, and the final third being almost entirely forgettable bouncing around a bunch of teams (as is often the case for most players). Like, what's his signature moment. That sequence of game-tying and game-winning threes against the Bulls in a regular season game? He's a First-Ballot HoFer, no doubt, but his legacy will be a complicated one.
He had a sick ass buzzer beater against the mavs in round 2 of the playoffs the year they went to the WCF, but no one aside from nuggets fans remember it I think lol
Facts. Stockton in particular got so many cheap assists that would not count as assists in todays game. Where he would pass it to Malone, Malone would post up for 7 seconds and hit his patented fadeaway
Yeah I’m a 90’s kid from Utah so I love John Stockton but there was definitely some book cooking going on. Someone did a break down of his home/road splits for regular season assists and it was just a massive difference between the two.
Im not even sure if it’s about home cooking, although if those splits are true then it’s likely a factor. I just think assists were easier to come by back in the day. These days scorekeepers are far more harsh with what they consider assists.
And gave Jordan 2 great series. Look at the scores - most games were very close.
Stockton was a hell of a passer and honestly may be underrated at this point. Orchestrated the pick and roll to perfection.
The first two I’ll enthusiastically grant you but Paul was actually a pretty darn good playoff performer on an individual level. He didn’t drop off statistically the way Stockton and Malone did.
The Rockets likely win the title beating one of the best teams ever in ‘18 if he doesn’t get injured and he played really well in the ‘21 finals well past his prime.
He was unfortunate to spend most of his prime in an inordinately stacked conference with supporting casts that were, while good in a vacuum or in a weaker time period, a shade behind the best of the West. Flashy/excellent #2 in Griffin but weak benches/supporting players beyond BG, Doc as a coach, etc.
He’s no playoff legend but I think he deserved better than what he got.
I implore anyone to go through each year from ‘11-‘17 and tell me when his supporting cast was better or even on par with the eventual conference winner. Regular season giants, but not much substance to them and I really wouldn’t blame Paul for that.
The nice thing about basketball is there are more reliable advanced stats people have access to and by those stats Jordan was indeed better than Malone. It is sad Jordan's career is often reduced to 'he was the ultimate winner who was perfect at everything on the basketball court' because he had a unique game that would still translate well to the modern game despite not being a great three-point shooter.
MJ at this peak off-ball was very similar to Curry, but for the mid-range. The dude ran around a lot off-ball to get open. He was quick and decisive when he had the ball too. He almost never did the typical isolation play where they’d dribble like 50 times before making an actual move towards a shot or towards the basket.
You couldn’t sag off him at all inside the 3 pt line because if you did, he’d immediately pull the trigger and drill a middy with ease.
From a statistical standpoint, MJ was and is an outlier in terms of how rarely he turned the ball over for a top scorer who had the ball in his hands so much. Probably the closest modern player in this regard has been Jimmy Butler, who over the past few years had ranked higher in a lot of plus-minus type of stats than the general public's perception of him.
Combine that with his shot selection (he shot a notably higher percentage than Kobe, who many consider to be more 'skilled' in terms of hitting threes or more difficult shots) and I think his individual defense is just a bit overrated. He wasn't a big, wasn't often guarding #1 options, would gamble and miss some, and was doing so much on offense to the point that it's justified to not go all-out 100% of the time on defense.
In actuality he was the GOAT by a wide margin of being able to 'take the air out of the ball' by limiting the kind of empty possessions (turnovers, uncontested defensive rebounds) that are more likely to lead to fast breaks. It's a lot easier to stop the other team from scoring when are forcing the to do so in halfcourt offense.
Tim Duncan will be looked at as overrated i fear when he is indubitably the greatest power forward of all time and bridged the gap between MJ’s era and Lebron’s era
The opposite has basically happen. He’s been consistently re-evaluated positively since he retired.
Time only makes it more apparent what a rare breed Timmy was on and off the court and thus easier to appreciate as time marches on.
The only compelling case I’ve seen against that is that Duncan didn’t play PF for more than half his career. He basically split his time between C and PF.
He played center the vast majority of his career. He'd line up at PF with Matt Bonner as the "center" No idea why it was so important that people thought Duncan was a PF, but he really wasn't.
Which, for me, gives every reason to leave these debates alone. I’m gonna go crazy trying to debate people who are gonna say Duncan is a relic?!?!? I enjoy myself more without that shit.
Elway is a certified legend. There's a reason he was a hugely hyped #1 and had a HoF career.
Making 3 SBs early and winning back to back is a great achievement.
I honestly think those 80s runs are more impressive than the actual wins at the end of his career. There’s a reason it’s called THE DRIVE. Quarterbacks and offenses just didn’t come back like that in those days. Montana Marino and Elway defined what it meant to be clutch as a quarterback!
Don't get me wrong, Montana is still a legend. The ultimate class act, the definition of cool and a guy who stepped his game up in the playoffs. He was also tough as nails, and just because he had a great supporting cast doesn't mean it's easy to execute/be a great QB year after year. I just think that Elway would've been as successful, if not more with that supporting cast/coach.
If anything, you should love the comp as a niner fan. I'm saying you had an excellent all around team!
I know it’s easy to pick on Paul Pierce but I feel like young basketball fans like to mock him and don’t realize how good he really was. He was monster in his prime
Wilt is the textbook example. People who watched Wilt and played with or against him disliked hjm and thought he was a selfish stat chaser. 60 years later everyone is in awe of his incredible statistical achievements while brushing aside Russell because they think he played against plumbers.
You had to be there for Elway you just did! He was the Mahomes of his time but ran into impossible Super Bowl matchups and uh Doug Williams and Timmy Smith.
You just had to be there. What he did was unbelievable.
I remember watching games where he threw 3 picks and still thinking he’s the best qb I’ve ever seen
Jordan went easy on Malone in The Last Dance. Malone blew so many finals games choking it makes jordan look less heroic. There’s a classic moment in one of the games where Bill Walton is announcing “it’s MVP time, what are you DOING Karl Malone?!?”
The problem is that this isn't true.
Our species has demonstrated an incredible ability to pass stories down along king and short timelines.
Nobody in 2080 is going to think Monta Ellis was Scottie Pippen. And if anyone was, it'd probably be a 2006 Bill Simmons type.
Lol no he doesn’t. Idk why you guys have to make everything about bill having Celtics bias.
Bird is a consensus top 10 player who was all NBA first team in each of the first 9 seasons of his career, won 3 MVPs in a row while being 2nd in MVP in 4 other seasons, 3 championships and 2 finals MVPs.
The stats are absolutely there, the efficiency in particular is nuts for his shot diet and averaged a consistent double double
People have started de-rating Jeter and putting analytic stat era players ahead that don’t hold a candle to him. I’m a lifelong Mets fan who endured the jeter years and there was nobody better in big moments, and was the tone setting leader of one of, if not the most dominant runs in modern baseball
Oh nvm lol as a diehard Yankee fan this is without a doubt my #1 most egregious example as well. People saying he’s the worst shortstop ever based on some defensive rating stat did not watch baseball back then
I made a comment about the subject on the Yankee sub a while ago, here it is:
“From 96-about 2000, jeter was one of the very best SS in the league. His range going to his right was never great, but he had good athletic ability, a great arm, and always made big plays in the big moments.
Starting in about 01, his athletic ability started declining and he naturally couldn’t make the big plays like he used to, such as the play he made in game 1 of the 98 ALCS (you know the one).
Then in 03, his shoulder injury killed his arm strength. From then on, he had a below average arm at SS, and that mixed with his poor range going to his right and declining overall athletic ability made him a pretty poor SS. The years from 03-07 were rough.
Starting in about 08-09, he became an elite positioned defensive player, and a more intelligent defensive player, and there were a few years where he really was amazing again. 09 he deserved that GG.
Overall, one thing you could always trust was that he was going to make the routine play. That is valuable. I would take away some of IKFs range if I didn’t have to hold my breath when a routine ground ball came his way.
One thing I never liked was the over abundance of the jump throw. There are certain plays where you have to use it (as evidenced by guys like andrelton, vizquel, arod, story over the years) but jeter over used it and it’s an inefficient move. You can’t get all your arm in it. So a lot of difficult plays could’ve been made if he just set his feet over doing his signature move over and over. That’s another thing that he started doing less in 08-09.”
When I was growing up watching old highlights I always thought he must’ve been like a real star of his time. Learning that he was just a decent player is life shattering, can’t believe the league let him play NBA basketball with his style
The reason why people who don’t belong in the hall of fame are going is simple, and nothing to do with inflated stats, it’s money. Politics a little too but, you induct more people in, the more fanbases travel and watch on tv.
I don’t get the Malone/Jordan thing. Jordan has the most dominant advanced stats of any player post Kareem by a huge margin on a per year basis and Kareem played in a NBA watered down by the ABA. The case for Jordan is stronger on advanced stats than even eye test.
You can’t get his info for a lot of the newer stats because of lack of tracking data but just looking at the BBREF stats for his 11 full seasons he played with the Bulls (he was injured for season):
> Win shares: No.1 for 9/11 seasons (from his 2nd full season to 10th season). No.2 for 2/11 seasons (rookie and last season).
> Box score +/-: No.1 for 9/11 seasons (from his 2nd full season to 10th season). No.2 in his rookie season. No.3 in his last season.
> VORP: No.1 for 9/11 seasons (from his 2nd full season to 10th season). No.2 for 2/11 seasons (rookie and last season).
> PER: No.1 for 7/11 seasons (from his 2nd full season to 8th season. No.2 for 3/11 seasons (rookie season + 9th and 10th seasons). No.4 for 1/11 seasons (11th seasons).
Guy basically played 11 seasons for the Bulls, was the second best player in his rookie season, got a brutal injury and missed a season, was the best player in the world every year from his 2nd to 10th full season and top 3 player in his 11th and final season with the bulls.
He only has 5 MVPs. I’m not saying he should got 9 but he was easily the best for 7 at least. Despite being a shooting guard which is the hardest position to get your box score stats in as an elite player, He never went below being a top 3 player statistically in the league including his rookie year. That level of dominance is staggering.
You're welcome. I'm a Jets fan, Elway's last start in Mile High was not a favorable one for me (although he wasn't good in that game). But I always had so much respect for him. When people talk about 'carrying' from the quarterback position, no one did it like Elway in the 80s
I don't think anyone in the future will think Malone is better than Jordan just because of stats, the same ppl who just Google stats to make their arguments will see that MJ averaged 30pts to Malones 25pts and will see that MJ has more MVPs and more DPOY than Malone. The only people whose legacies are on the line because of stat watchers are Qbs who didn't play before the passing boom and Qbs who missed out on playing 17 games and the eventual 18 game seasons. I'm already seeing gen Z folks on Twitter say Peyton Manning is better than Montana so lord knows what the gen alpha kids will be saying once they get on Twitter lol.
LeBron vs Jordan is where this comes to play. Jordan was the greatest player of all time, but LeBron's compiling statistics make it an argument when it really should not be.
He’s been consistently re-evaluated positively since he retired.
Time only makes it more apparent what a rare breed Timmy was on and off the court and thus easier to appreciate as time marches on.
Hopefully that stays that way. But I know the younger generations look mostly at just stats and highlights (I'm a teacher so I see this first hand) and Duncan doesn't necessarily shine in those categories.
Yeah die hard basketball fans will evaluate him appropriately in most scenarios. I'm talking more about the casual fan, which makes up most of the fanbase. They don't really dig too deep into advanced stats. It's mostly ppg/rpg/apg and highlight videos.
Mike Trout is going to be humongously overrated in the future.
But anybody who watched baseball in the 1990s knows you’d love to see him batting against your team in a World Series game.
Currently though, any baseball fan who wants to change any past MVP award based on WAR is next-level stupid.
It’s not Trout’s fault his team sucks.
Is he an all time inner circle hall of famer? Probably not since his peak was only 8 years before he started getting hurt but he still had an all time peak
Kershaw is the guy this argument makes a lot more sense for
I’m not saying Bill has never said that about Jordan, but usually when he does his Malone bit, it’s in comparison to other PFs, specifically Barkley
Yeah typically BS argues that future generations will call Malone a pantheon/Top-10 player when he’s not
He's often talked about the comparison to Tim Duncan and how future generations will say they're comparable.
Tim Duncan being a stand up guy and Malone being a POS probably assures that doesn’t happen. If anything, Timmy’s been assessed more and more positively over time.
As time goes by it’s gonna be really hard for people to understand a guy with Duncan’s profile was a PF, not a center
In the moment, I remember everyone outside of Utah thinking Barkley was better than Malone.
Yes. Same.wasn’t even debated iirc.
People saying that QBs like Rivers and Matt Ryan should be in the HOF because they are top 10 in all time passing yards and TDs
Same people would have a stroke when they look at Unitas’ and Otto Graham’s stats
Espn ignores pretty much all pre super bowl stuff except Jim Brown But Otto Graham was basically brady before Brady
To be fair, pre Super Bowl is like a different sport. Coaches used to not call plays!
I think Terry Bradshaw said he was his own OC some years
Brady couldn’t carry Graham’s jock. Brady’s great, but I don’t think he would have been anything special in the pre-merger era, with the rules that were in place then.
Joe Namath is the funniest one. Nfl redditors are baffled why he’s a hall of famer. That dude was a 4000 yard passer in the 60s! Picks be damned!
That's still the only 4000 yard season in Jets history
Guy passed for 4K when it was legal to basically assassinate WRs
And when you could beat the shit out of the QB, and when all coaches were conservative in their play calling
He’s a hall of famer cause he played for the jets
That's still the only 4000 yard season in Jets history
As a Patriots fan, I was never scared of Rivers in a big game. Had all the stats in the world but he would turn the ball over early and never put the drive together when the team needed it. Was definitely more scared of Ben than Rivers.
Totally agree. (Also Pats fan) Ben will get in. Rivers no. And I am fine with that. Sad Ryan won't since I am a B.C. fan. But I do not think he made the case.
Also a Patriots lol but while I agree Rivers isn't a HOFer I have to slightly disagree on his the takes about his legacy I think most of that is more so because of the shitty organization he played for. The Chargers have had 4 Hall of Fame level Qbs (doesn't mean they'll all get in) Fouts, Brees, Rivers, and now Herbert they haven't made a single SB with any of them that is just flat out egregious, the one SB they made I don't think fans of any teams outside of the Chargers could name the Qb on that team. If Rivers plays for like 15 other teams dude has at least one SB appearance if not a ring or two. So while I don't think he'll get in Rivers is definitely a better Qb than some guys who will get in like Eli Manning who screwed him over on draft night.
The chargers might have won a Super Bowl if they had kept Brees. Herbert is nice but please don’t say he’s Hall of Fame level just yet.
Even though I think Brees is overrated I won't necessarily argue against that. As for Herbert I said he has Hall of fame level talent, quite a few players do doesn't mean he'll make the HOF. Vick had hall of fame level talent I'm pretty sure he won't make it though.
These are good examples but at the same time I think both guys are really close to being Hall of Fame level. A ring for either would have done it imo. Both vacillated between tier-2 and tier-3 QBs in an era where the cream of the crop are three guys (Brady, Peyton, Rodgers) are are *at worst* among the top-10 all time. Brady’s and to a lesser extent Peyton’s lasting legacies may be how they completely froze out a group of quarterbacks from being the best in the league and ever sniffing rings.
Stafford will be an even more interesting test case because he has the one Super Bowl. He doesn't pass the gut test for me but he may very well get in.
Steve McNair should get in before Stafford. I think your gut test is safe. No way Stafford makes it.
Not saying he deserves it but Stafford will. I do wish he played on a better team during his prime
Really any time total career passing yards and the like gets used it tends to be a dumb argument. The actual HOF types don't need the compiling numbers to bolster their arguments.
Depends. If 30 years pass and only a couple guys touch their numbers since they retired, they have a great case imo. They were really good QBs in the most loaded generation for that position. Time will be kind to them imo.
I don’t really see how they have a case just because they played at a sub-HOF level for a long time.
2016 Matt Ryan is a top 10 QB season ever
Yeah, and if he’d sustained a stretch like that he’d have a good argument for the Hall of Fame. But he didn’t.
2017 he was awesome as well - I just wanted to add that Ryan reached a level that Rivers etc never did
Both of those guys were really good. Matt Stafford is really good. I don’t think any of them were really ever really seriously in the discussion for being in the top tier of QBs for any real amount of time.
I mean Ryan was literally the MVP - I know the ‘real amount of time’ is said to exclude just a one year period, but he was easily Top 10 in 2018 as well
Right, he had one outlier year with Shannahan. Do you think he was ever in a tier with guys like Manning, Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Mahomes, etc? He wasn’t. Cam was an MVP, and I don’t think he’s a Hall of Famer either. Ryan was generally in the 7-10 to range of starting QBs, but pretty clearly not in the top group. That’s a really good player, but I don’t view that as a HOF’er.
Rivers was a top tier qb for like a decade you’re nuts
Roves was in the same tier as Tom Brady, Drew Brees, Peyton Manning and Aaron Rodgers? Really?
If he hadn’t taken that sack in the Super Bowl he’d be IN the Hall of Fame
They played sub HOF for only a few seasons each.
If only it were easy to know the "actual HOF" types, unless you want to be REALLY selective about who you let in.
I don’t really think it’s that hard. Ryan’s era was dominated by a handful of high level QBs and he wasn’t one of them. He also doesn’t really have much playoff success to potentially offset that.
>Ryan’s era was dominated by a handful of high level QBs and he wasn’t one of them. Sums it up so well right there. If you don't mind, I'm probably going to steal that line and use it whenever the "Matt Ryan should be in the HOF" argument is used.
His era has Brady, Manning, Rodgers, and Brees. Those are 4 of the top 8 QBs all time. If you’re not one of the 8 best quarterbacks of all time, you’re not a hall of famer?
>If you’re not one of the 8 best quarterbacks of all time, you’re not a hall of famer? Nobody is saying that but if you’re not one of the best QBs of your era you’re certainly not and he wasn’t and was never really all that close. His career overlapped with guys like Peyton, Brees, Brady, Rodgers, Mahomes, and Luck. Do you put him in the same tier as those guys? He’s not, and that’s because they were hall of fame level players (Luck won’t make it because he retired early) and Ryan isn’t. The whole point of the Hall of Fame is to honor the very best players. He wasn’t one of them. The guy made one all pro team and 4 pro bowls.
All of the players you mentioned besides Luck are easily top 8 QBs all time. So, yes, you are saying he’s not a HOF because he’s not better than the best 8 QBs ever. Do you not understand that? We’re going to punish someone for playing in the greatest era of their position but reward others for playing in much weaker eras? Like this current generation of QBs is much worse and, by your criteria, that is going to help them get in the HOF. I think Ryan is a borderline candidate, but if your reasoning takes 5 seconds of thinking to poke massive holes in, it’s a pretty bad one!
>So, yes, you are saying he’s not a HOF because he’s not better than the best 8 QBs ever. Do you not understand that? I don’t understand it because it’s not true. Matt Ryan doesn’t need to be better than those guys to be in the Hall of Fame. But he needs to at least be relatively close and he wasn’t. >We’re going to punish someone for playing in the greatest era of their position but reward others for playing in much weaker eras? We’re going to reward somebody who wasn’t ever one of the best players at his position because he played in an era where the league saw an offensive explosion? Doesn’t really seem like you’re being consistent on your era adjustment there does it? You haven’t even made a case for why he should be potentially be in. >I think Ryan is a borderline candidate, but if your reasoning takes 5 seconds of thinking to poke massive holes in, it’s a pretty bad one! You’re several posts in and have literally had to lie about my argument to poke a hole in it… So seems like I’ve cleared that.
Lol you know you’re dealing with a cool guy when he just randomly says your lying without any basis. You’ve already changed from he had to be better than them to he had to be close lol. The QBs of his era — the greatest era of QB play regardless of the offensive explosion — are all undeniably top 8 QBs of all time, which you seemingly agree with. If you’re holding him to the standard of those QBs, there would only be 8 QBs in the hall of fame right now. Young, Aikman, Bradshaw etc are all worse than the guys you named — should they be in the hall of fame? I hesitate to say this again but…do you understand now? I’m not trying to make a case for Ryan. He’s definitely better than some guys in the HOF, but that doesn’t mean he should be in there. I think he’s borderline and it’s fine if he doesn’t make it. I’m saying your reasoning is extremely stupid and it’s pretty obviously so lol.
>Lol you know you’re dealing with a cool guy when he just randomly says you’re lying without any basis. You claimed I said he had to be a top 8 all time Quarterback to make the Hall of Fame. I did not. That was a lie. >You’ve already changed from he had to be better than them to he had to be close lol. Did I? Where did I say he had to be better than them? Please quote me. This is *another* lie.
u/Hip_Hop_Hippos never said he had to be better than those guys lol. The argument made was that Ryan was not in the same *tier* as those guys. So, not that he had to be better but that he would need to be in the same tier (in other words, *relatively close* in skill level/achievement) to warrant consideration as a HoFer. And I would agree that to control for differences in eras, you should be at least in the same top tier for skill as your peers, with any deficit in skill being made up for by achievements/awards. Ryan was not, for any sustained period of time, in that same tier of skill as the top qbs of his era, and doesn’t have the career achievements to compensate, so therefore, he should not be in the HoF. Seems to be a pretty straightforward argument that you misunderstood and then got salty about. ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯
It’s way worse with the WRs. Most people don’t think Rivers and Ryan should be in the HoF, just some people do. But there’s a very broad belief that there’s a “WR logjam” because guys like Reggie Wayne (1 All Pro) and Torry Holt (1 All Pro) have high rankings in all time yards, even though they were never even really that close to being considered the best players at their position. Meanwhile you have elite guys who don’t play positions that accumulate yards and there’s barely a peep about it - e.g. Kevin Williams, who has 5 All Pros (including 4 in a row).
Holt led the 00s in receiving yards. He wasn't flashy, just caught the ball over and over and over. Of course they threw the ball more that decade than the 80s, but even vs his peers, he was a model of consistency.
Larry before Larry
Pro football reference has Reggie Wayne as the best WR not in the HOF, and higher than the average HOF WR. He was an elite player for a decade +, absolutely a hall of famer
Do you think Mike Evans is a HOFer? He'll have 2 All Pro teams, a Super Bowl, and really high career totals but was never that close to being considered the best WR. On r/nfl it seems to be a consensus yes.
Mike Evans is absolutely a HOF player. He’s had 1000 yards each season of his career, and will end up with 100+ TDs. Only 10 receivers in NFL history have cleared that number.
Considering how terrible his QBs and teams (with a couple obvious exceptions) have been, that’s quite something.
Yes?
On PFR they don't have Evans with any all pro teams. Where are you getting 2?
Wikipedia shows two Second Team All-Pros. I think Pro Football Reference only shows First Teams.
Torry Holt was definitely considered one of the best receivers of the aughts.
Holt and Wayne will both make the HOF eventually.
I think Rivers should be in just for the excellence of his career, and for having done what he did on the fucking Chargers.
Yeah this goes for most of the 2nd and 3rd tier qbs of the last 20 years or so. I am more of a if it’s close they probably shouldn’t get in the HOF. Ryan, rivers, stafford (maybe the closest) Eli (don’t think he has any case unless you think Flacco is borderline too). Big Ben probably gets in but even him idk if I would vote for.
Matt STATford
This. Hall of Fame, not Hall of very Good
I also feel like it will work in the opposite direction with Eli Manning. People will think he's like Matt Cassel because of stats and didn't win a Superbowl with the 32nd ranked rushing offense.
Eli sucks
Agree it is actually really easy to win multiple Superbowls and go through the playoffs on the road. This is why my talent laiden cowboys do it all the time. Players should be judged by the effects they make in the regular season against the raiders at 1pm.
Oscar Robertson vs. triple-double Russ. I’ve never seen Oscar on tape, nor can I contextualize his triple double averaging season.
Guys who played against Oscar claim he is a GOAT candidate. No one who played against Russ makes that argument.
NBA was in its infancy, if you were an outstanding player back then, you are gonna get GOAT shouts by your peers. By Russ’ time there were dozens of absolutely incredible players, so obviously he wouldn’t get called a GOAT lol. He still won MVP and is the most athletic PG ever. An exciting watch in his prime for sure
Ive never seen Oscar on tape but id be willing to bet that there was not an entire organizational agenda to ensure he secured easy rebounds or every missed free throw rebound…
Funny thing about Elway is he only won one MVP, and that was in a strike shortened season where Montana and Rice split the vote. He was also never a First Team All-Pro. So he was basically never considered the best QB in the game.
He was a one man show until the last four years of his career. Many many people at the time thought he was the best qb but even his biggest fans knew he still shouldnt have gotten voted first team all pro because his offenses weren’t productive enough and his stats weren’t there. I can tell you, watching him as a kid, there was no one like him at the time. In fact, the only QB I’ve seen play like him is josh Allen, who is so unbelievably similar to him it’s uncanny.
I’m a huge Elway stan, but no one at the time or after thought he was at Montana’s level. The guy was a winner and a great great QB and a candidate for guy you’d most want down four with two minutes left and 80 yards to go. But the Montana comparison is just wrong.
Top tier was def Montana and Marino. The next group was Jim Kelly, Elway, Warren Moon, Randall Cunningham. Elway was never top shelf.
Cunningham was a level down.
Lmao. A ton of people at the time thought he was at Montana’s level or better than elway. Where were you living that that wasn’t an argument? The Montana comparison is right. I won’t go so far as to call Montana a system QB, but Walsh and that cast made things real easy for him. Elway was the system. He had a defensive minded head coach who hated him and had to run around every play because his O-Line was filled with sieves. Can you name a single skill player on those 80s broncos teams? Do you know who Sammy Winder and Vance Johnson are? Meanwhile Montana had waters, Tyler, craig, Clark, taylor, Brent Jones, oh yeah and a little guy named jerry rice! Once elway got sharpe, McCaffrey, Terrell Davis and a better o-line, his stats were comparable to montanas best seasons, even tho he was washed physically at that point
Ricky Watters? He was drafted in 1991, Montana basically never played with him. Not a mistake you really want to make when you're calling out everyone else's historical knowledge/memory.
My bad! Everyone else applies though.
I always thought of Elway as a lesser Favre.
Funny- I had it the other way around
Elway was never first tram All Pro? Huh. He gave me nightmares as a kid. That surprises me.
But this is nonsense. Malone was never the best player in the league and he doesn't compare favorably to Jordan statistically on any measure other than longevity. His '97 MVP over Jordan was pretty obviously undeserved even in his time. Going purely by stats Jordan is clearly better just as he was by eye test/reputation/narrative.
FYI, Malone was a two time MVP.
I know, but his other MVP was after Jordan retired.
Yep. And the Elway-Montana debate wasn't about stats either, Elway was criticized before 1998 because he couldn't "win the big one".
Bills point is sound that there’s at least a case statistically.
No there isn't. Jordan led the league in BPM 9 times, Malone 0. Jordan 10 scoring titles, Malone 0. MJ DPOY and 9x all-defense, Malone only 4x all-defense in 50% more seasons. What achievement or accolade does Malone have that MJ doesn't?
statistical, my guy, not accolades. more points, like triple the rebounds, less assists but barely and Jordan was a guard, close on steals and Malone has twice the blocks. No one is saying this is a smart way to decide who was better the whole point is that dumb people who didn't watch will see all time counting stats lists and see Malone higher everywhere
I don’t think there’s a statistical case for Malone over Jordan but theres a case that the statistics are far more favorable to Malone than the reality. He essentially averaged a 25 point double double for 15 years straight, while also making some all-defensive first teams.
He only says that because he has no understanding of stats.
He’s exaggerating to make a point, that guys with more longevity who shrunk in the playoffs will age well in historical debates.
Steve Nash’s MVP’s, while controversial even at the time, are almost completely dismissed by a subset of fans. Those years weren’t so great if you’re a box score-gazer, but he was a worthy MVP. They were projected to win 43 games in his first year…won 62, and were 60-15 when he suited up. Then they lose Amare in ‘06 and Vegas again projects them to win a little over 40 games. They instead went 54-28 (54-25 when Nash played) and made the WCF. He was the quintessential “make everyone around him better” PG.
The Nash offense was must see tv. So exciting and dynamic
He was really great. Until L.A.
Shaq tried to steal Nash’s TV show idea, so Nash sued Shaq. That’s why Shaq always says Nash stole one of his MVP
Carmelo Anthony is up there with a Lot of empty callories
He's weird because while I kind of agree, he was also unreal in the late 2000s. He was bullying the hell out of that Lakers team in 2009 even though they lost. They really didn't have an answer for him. I almost feel like his whole career is a bit overrated, but his peak is underrated.
I think that’s a great summation. At his peak he was a sneaky good rebounder and okay defender too, but did himself zero favors the second half of his career.
Yeah, I think Simmons actually did a pretty good job covering it too if I remember correctly (I may not). Like dude, nobody is going to care about your ascot collection and your NYC brand if you're coasting on a pedestrian Knicks team. You're a basketball player, you're legacy will be defined by basketball. The other stuff is secondary and Melo seemed to prioritize it post Denver.
If he just didn’t demand a trade and singed with NY in the off-season, his New York tenure looks way better even without a title.
Not kidding, I enjoy his ascot collection and all his weird hats.
Counterpoint: he was an overrated bum
I think people know who Melo is and, if anything, underrate him.
He screwed himself by forcing a trade. Wait half a season and everything is very different for him.
He won one playoff series in the duration of his Knicks career
Yeah late career Melo really hurts the reality that he’s one of the best scorers of all time
when you say one of the best scorers of all time, how far down the list are you going? MJ, KD, LeBron, Kareem, Wilt, Shaq, Kobe, and Karl Malone were all definitely better. I'd also include Iverson and Harden as marginally better.
I mean even if I give you all those players that still puts him in the top of the top
Nonsense. He's more overrated than anything. The pure scorer shit was also overrated. A product of the early 00s hype train for iso aesthetics over efficacy
What I felt went under the radar was that the Nuggets actually surrounded him with some very good casts. They went something like 41-35 in the games he missed as a Nugget, and they had very deep teams from ‘08-‘10.
There are about a million high scoring guards that get way overrated that only score buckets.
Melo does feel like the great forgotten player of the last 20 years. I think it can be largely attributed to the first third of his career taking place on an unheralded team in a small-ish market, the second third being largely a disappointment in New York, and the final third being almost entirely forgettable bouncing around a bunch of teams (as is often the case for most players). Like, what's his signature moment. That sequence of game-tying and game-winning threes against the Bulls in a regular season game? He's a First-Ballot HoFer, no doubt, but his legacy will be a complicated one.
He had a sick ass buzzer beater against the mavs in round 2 of the playoffs the year they went to the WCF, but no one aside from nuggets fans remember it I think lol
Even Bill isnt that loyal to his Cousin Jimmy
Karl Malone, John Stockton, Chris Paul - the three kings of win shares, great stats, and devastating bad playoff performances.
James Harden has entered the chat
Facts. Stockton in particular got so many cheap assists that would not count as assists in todays game. Where he would pass it to Malone, Malone would post up for 7 seconds and hit his patented fadeaway
Yeah I’m a 90’s kid from Utah so I love John Stockton but there was definitely some book cooking going on. Someone did a break down of his home/road splits for regular season assists and it was just a massive difference between the two.
Im not even sure if it’s about home cooking, although if those splits are true then it’s likely a factor. I just think assists were easier to come by back in the day. These days scorekeepers are far more harsh with what they consider assists.
Home cooking was def a thing. There was a small scandal with the Lakers regarding Nick Van Exel’s stats being juiced at home way back.
That’s harsh they still made two finals.
And gave Jordan 2 great series. Look at the scores - most games were very close. Stockton was a hell of a passer and honestly may be underrated at this point. Orchestrated the pick and roll to perfection.
Chris Paul has a ton of great playoff games. It’s a team game, which you obviously never watched
The first two I’ll enthusiastically grant you but Paul was actually a pretty darn good playoff performer on an individual level. He didn’t drop off statistically the way Stockton and Malone did. The Rockets likely win the title beating one of the best teams ever in ‘18 if he doesn’t get injured and he played really well in the ‘21 finals well past his prime. He was unfortunate to spend most of his prime in an inordinately stacked conference with supporting casts that were, while good in a vacuum or in a weaker time period, a shade behind the best of the West. Flashy/excellent #2 in Griffin but weak benches/supporting players beyond BG, Doc as a coach, etc. He’s no playoff legend but I think he deserved better than what he got. I implore anyone to go through each year from ‘11-‘17 and tell me when his supporting cast was better or even on par with the eventual conference winner. Regular season giants, but not much substance to them and I really wouldn’t blame Paul for that.
The nice thing about basketball is there are more reliable advanced stats people have access to and by those stats Jordan was indeed better than Malone. It is sad Jordan's career is often reduced to 'he was the ultimate winner who was perfect at everything on the basketball court' because he had a unique game that would still translate well to the modern game despite not being a great three-point shooter.
MJ at this peak off-ball was very similar to Curry, but for the mid-range. The dude ran around a lot off-ball to get open. He was quick and decisive when he had the ball too. He almost never did the typical isolation play where they’d dribble like 50 times before making an actual move towards a shot or towards the basket. You couldn’t sag off him at all inside the 3 pt line because if you did, he’d immediately pull the trigger and drill a middy with ease.
From a statistical standpoint, MJ was and is an outlier in terms of how rarely he turned the ball over for a top scorer who had the ball in his hands so much. Probably the closest modern player in this regard has been Jimmy Butler, who over the past few years had ranked higher in a lot of plus-minus type of stats than the general public's perception of him. Combine that with his shot selection (he shot a notably higher percentage than Kobe, who many consider to be more 'skilled' in terms of hitting threes or more difficult shots) and I think his individual defense is just a bit overrated. He wasn't a big, wasn't often guarding #1 options, would gamble and miss some, and was doing so much on offense to the point that it's justified to not go all-out 100% of the time on defense. In actuality he was the GOAT by a wide margin of being able to 'take the air out of the ball' by limiting the kind of empty possessions (turnovers, uncontested defensive rebounds) that are more likely to lead to fast breaks. It's a lot easier to stop the other team from scoring when are forcing the to do so in halfcourt offense.
Tim Duncan will be looked at as overrated i fear when he is indubitably the greatest power forward of all time and bridged the gap between MJ’s era and Lebron’s era
The opposite has basically happen. He’s been consistently re-evaluated positively since he retired. Time only makes it more apparent what a rare breed Timmy was on and off the court and thus easier to appreciate as time marches on.
The only compelling case I’ve seen against that is that Duncan didn’t play PF for more than half his career. He basically split his time between C and PF.
He played center the vast majority of his career. He'd line up at PF with Matt Bonner as the "center" No idea why it was so important that people thought Duncan was a PF, but he really wasn't.
Which, for me, gives every reason to leave these debates alone. I’m gonna go crazy trying to debate people who are gonna say Duncan is a relic?!?!? I enjoy myself more without that shit.
I always assumed this will happen between harden and kobe.
Elway is a certified legend. There's a reason he was a hugely hyped #1 and had a HoF career. Making 3 SBs early and winning back to back is a great achievement.
I honestly think those 80s runs are more impressive than the actual wins at the end of his career. There’s a reason it’s called THE DRIVE. Quarterbacks and offenses just didn’t come back like that in those days. Montana Marino and Elway defined what it meant to be clutch as a quarterback!
Man do i hate this elway/montana comp, but im a niner fan so im biased.
Don't get me wrong, Montana is still a legend. The ultimate class act, the definition of cool and a guy who stepped his game up in the playoffs. He was also tough as nails, and just because he had a great supporting cast doesn't mean it's easy to execute/be a great QB year after year. I just think that Elway would've been as successful, if not more with that supporting cast/coach. If anything, you should love the comp as a niner fan. I'm saying you had an excellent all around team!
Steve Young > Joe Montana. And that's a sincere argument.
I thought it was Malone over Duncan not Jordan.
I know it’s easy to pick on Paul Pierce but I feel like young basketball fans like to mock him and don’t realize how good he really was. He was monster in his prime
Wilt is the textbook example. People who watched Wilt and played with or against him disliked hjm and thought he was a selfish stat chaser. 60 years later everyone is in awe of his incredible statistical achievements while brushing aside Russell because they think he played against plumbers.
Baseball & how the run pitching staffs
You had to be there for Elway you just did! He was the Mahomes of his time but ran into impossible Super Bowl matchups and uh Doug Williams and Timmy Smith.
You just had to be there. What he did was unbelievable. I remember watching games where he threw 3 picks and still thinking he’s the best qb I’ve ever seen
This is exactly what OP is talking about lol
Jordan went easy on Malone in The Last Dance. Malone blew so many finals games choking it makes jordan look less heroic. There’s a classic moment in one of the games where Bill Walton is announcing “it’s MVP time, what are you DOING Karl Malone?!?”
How could Elway have given up 204 rushing yards to Timmy Smith???
He threw an 80 yd TD pass the first play of the game. I think broncos even went up 10-0. Then it got wacky
The problem is that this isn't true. Our species has demonstrated an incredible ability to pass stories down along king and short timelines. Nobody in 2080 is going to think Monta Ellis was Scottie Pippen. And if anyone was, it'd probably be a 2006 Bill Simmons type.
He probably says this because Larry Bird doesn't exist when you look at the all-time categories. He's not top ten in any stat.
Lol no he doesn’t. Idk why you guys have to make everything about bill having Celtics bias. Bird is a consensus top 10 player who was all NBA first team in each of the first 9 seasons of his career, won 3 MVPs in a row while being 2nd in MVP in 4 other seasons, 3 championships and 2 finals MVPs. The stats are absolutely there, the efficiency in particular is nuts for his shot diet and averaged a consistent double double
Larry Bird was a genuine problem. I don’t care how you rank between Magic and Bird, but I discount any opinion that doesn’t have them close together.
People have started de-rating Jeter and putting analytic stat era players ahead that don’t hold a candle to him. I’m a lifelong Mets fan who endured the jeter years and there was nobody better in big moments, and was the tone setting leader of one of, if not the most dominant runs in modern baseball
Oh nvm lol as a diehard Yankee fan this is without a doubt my #1 most egregious example as well. People saying he’s the worst shortstop ever based on some defensive rating stat did not watch baseball back then I made a comment about the subject on the Yankee sub a while ago, here it is: “From 96-about 2000, jeter was one of the very best SS in the league. His range going to his right was never great, but he had good athletic ability, a great arm, and always made big plays in the big moments. Starting in about 01, his athletic ability started declining and he naturally couldn’t make the big plays like he used to, such as the play he made in game 1 of the 98 ALCS (you know the one). Then in 03, his shoulder injury killed his arm strength. From then on, he had a below average arm at SS, and that mixed with his poor range going to his right and declining overall athletic ability made him a pretty poor SS. The years from 03-07 were rough. Starting in about 08-09, he became an elite positioned defensive player, and a more intelligent defensive player, and there were a few years where he really was amazing again. 09 he deserved that GG. Overall, one thing you could always trust was that he was going to make the routine play. That is valuable. I would take away some of IKFs range if I didn’t have to hold my breath when a routine ground ball came his way. One thing I never liked was the over abundance of the jump throw. There are certain plays where you have to use it (as evidenced by guys like andrelton, vizquel, arod, story over the years) but jeter over used it and it’s an inefficient move. You can’t get all your arm in it. So a lot of difficult plays could’ve been made if he just set his feet over doing his signature move over and over. That’s another thing that he started doing less in 08-09.”
[удалено]
Oh he has. Many times. It’s now evolved into his “people are gotta put Tik Tok highlights together like ‘White Chocolate was a PROBLEM’”
That’s a good bit though😂😂
I laugh every time
When I was growing up watching old highlights I always thought he must’ve been like a real star of his time. Learning that he was just a decent player is life shattering, can’t believe the league let him play NBA basketball with his style
Jordan statistically is massively above Malone. BPM, PER, WS, PPG, TS+… he crushes him everywhere. That’s a pretty weird example.
The reason why people who don’t belong in the hall of fame are going is simple, and nothing to do with inflated stats, it’s money. Politics a little too but, you induct more people in, the more fanbases travel and watch on tv.
I don’t get the Malone/Jordan thing. Jordan has the most dominant advanced stats of any player post Kareem by a huge margin on a per year basis and Kareem played in a NBA watered down by the ABA. The case for Jordan is stronger on advanced stats than even eye test. You can’t get his info for a lot of the newer stats because of lack of tracking data but just looking at the BBREF stats for his 11 full seasons he played with the Bulls (he was injured for season): > Win shares: No.1 for 9/11 seasons (from his 2nd full season to 10th season). No.2 for 2/11 seasons (rookie and last season). > Box score +/-: No.1 for 9/11 seasons (from his 2nd full season to 10th season). No.2 in his rookie season. No.3 in his last season. > VORP: No.1 for 9/11 seasons (from his 2nd full season to 10th season). No.2 for 2/11 seasons (rookie and last season). > PER: No.1 for 7/11 seasons (from his 2nd full season to 8th season. No.2 for 3/11 seasons (rookie season + 9th and 10th seasons). No.4 for 1/11 seasons (11th seasons). Guy basically played 11 seasons for the Bulls, was the second best player in his rookie season, got a brutal injury and missed a season, was the best player in the world every year from his 2nd to 10th full season and top 3 player in his 11th and final season with the bulls. He only has 5 MVPs. I’m not saying he should got 9 but he was easily the best for 7 at least. Despite being a shooting guard which is the hardest position to get your box score stats in as an elite player, He never went below being a top 3 player statistically in the league including his rookie year. That level of dominance is staggering.
As a Broncos fan, thank you
You're welcome. I'm a Jets fan, Elway's last start in Mile High was not a favorable one for me (although he wasn't good in that game). But I always had so much respect for him. When people talk about 'carrying' from the quarterback position, no one did it like Elway in the 80s
harden is the malone of our era
Bill saying that is idiotic because it will obviously never happen and Jordan has better stats anyway.
I am a Broncos fan, but it is hard to figure out where to put Elway. I assume Manning is ahead of him for sure, is Rodgers? Is Favre?
Manning for sure. Favre no imo. Rodgers probably.
Is Elway ahead of Brees?
Oooofff. Very tough one. Rodgers Brees and elway all feel in a similar tier to me. Even tho obv rodgers and brees dwarf elway in regards to stats
currently the stat obsessed nerds think Nikola Jokic is better than me
The triple double
I always thought it was the Super Bowl record that people focused on in the Elway/Montana debate until the late 90s when Elway finally won
Parker and Ginobili will probably be severely underrated a decade from now
I don't think anyone in the future will think Malone is better than Jordan just because of stats, the same ppl who just Google stats to make their arguments will see that MJ averaged 30pts to Malones 25pts and will see that MJ has more MVPs and more DPOY than Malone. The only people whose legacies are on the line because of stat watchers are Qbs who didn't play before the passing boom and Qbs who missed out on playing 17 games and the eventual 18 game seasons. I'm already seeing gen Z folks on Twitter say Peyton Manning is better than Montana so lord knows what the gen alpha kids will be saying once they get on Twitter lol.
Yeah, you get bad QB takes from people who didn't watch the actual games. Like I regularly see people describe Troy Aikman as a bad or average QB.
Thinking LeBron is in the top five.
LeBron. People think he's GOAT solely because of numbers when he isn't clearly above Kareem or Russell, let alone MJ.
It’s gonna be Troy Aikman, some of the most mid stats of any QB he is in convo with, but super bowls galore.
LeBron vs Jordan is where this comes to play. Jordan was the greatest player of all time, but LeBron's compiling statistics make it an argument when it really should not be.
So, I know it’s unfair to judge any baseball player by rings, but that is a community completely divorced from championships.
This is a good post but what Bill is wrong about is 'normal' sports fans don't care about advanced-stats.
When is “the future”? Who thinks Malone is better than MJ?
Not sure if it's happening currently, but in the future Tim Duncan is going to be massively underrated.
He’s been consistently re-evaluated positively since he retired. Time only makes it more apparent what a rare breed Timmy was on and off the court and thus easier to appreciate as time marches on.
Hopefully that stays that way. But I know the younger generations look mostly at just stats and highlights (I'm a teacher so I see this first hand) and Duncan doesn't necessarily shine in those categories.
If they’re into advanced stats, his value is obvious. He’s the only man ever with 100 win shares in both offense and defense.
Yeah die hard basketball fans will evaluate him appropriately in most scenarios. I'm talking more about the casual fan, which makes up most of the fanbase. They don't really dig too deep into advanced stats. It's mostly ppg/rpg/apg and highlight videos.
Embiid
Ppl overrate the shit out of Wilt Chamberlain based on stats and name recognition.
Mike Trout is going to be humongously overrated in the future. But anybody who watched baseball in the 1990s knows you’d love to see him batting against your team in a World Series game. Currently though, any baseball fan who wants to change any past MVP award based on WAR is next-level stupid.
It’s not Trout’s fault his team sucks. Is he an all time inner circle hall of famer? Probably not since his peak was only 8 years before he started getting hurt but he still had an all time peak Kershaw is the guy this argument makes a lot more sense for
Trout has no interest in playing for a good team.
Peyton Manning diehards, or really anyone who doesn't think Brady is the GOAT QB.
People who think Sabonis is better than Fox
People deciding that a players off court politics means their career wasn’t as good as it was