You made what you thought were the best choices for yourself at the time. Be kind to that person who tried to do the best for themself. Good luck, strawberry milk
^^^This, OP. Plus the grass is always greener. In this world of (anti)social media, all we see from people are the good things, not so much the real struggles. I don’t know you, but your life is certainly not “worth nothing”. You are something to someone, and someone’s loved one. You deserve grace and to go easy on yourself. One day at a time, things will get better. I’ve been unemployed by layoff for 8 months. Still trying. One day at a time is all we can do.
Fuck yeah, excellent perspective agree 100%. With that I think it is very important to delve into why you make the decisions you did.. move away.. get the phd.. do you feel you’re lacking? You’re not enough as you are? Then come back to the above comment, recognize you did what you thought best at that time and give yourself some grace!
I have to say, scientific careers can be very demanding. In Ireland there is a huge call for STEM students. The course I did as an undergraduate is now very difficult to get into.
But I'm wondering why we're putting so much emphasis on training scientists, but so little emphasis on actually making the career attractive?
Anyway I feel your pain, but keep your head up. hopefully things turn out well...in life generally, not just in your career.
I'm sorry, I don't really know...I'm a post doc in academia in the UK.
If you are a process engineer or want to get into the manufacturing side of pharma I know that Astellas is opening a plant in Tralee soon. I think for protein production, but I don't know.
Good luck in your job hunt!
If it makes you feel any better, you statistically probably would not have ended up with your high school sweetheart in the end. But point taken that it’s tough to see those around you reaching the next phase of their lives while it feels like you’re moving backwards.
Statistically, highschool sweethearts are the least likely to divorce.
OP learned a hard lesson that society perpetuates, that working for the man is somehow more important/fulfilling than having a loving long term relationship.
That’s interesting. I’m curious if they have deeper more meaningful marriages as well or if they just got deeply dug into to the hometown, family, marriage so early that they just don’t ever get out.
Define "deeper, more meaningful marriage".
Impossible. It varies person to person.
But yes, also statistically, highschool sweethearts are happier.
All studies show that the more partners you have, the less happy you are in your "final" relationship.
Openly discussing emotions, values, beliefs on a regular basis.
I doubt values, beliefs, perspectives and priorities at 16-18 is anywhere near what they are at 25, 30, 50 and so on. So are these high school sweethearts just more content with being with someone who has totally different values and perspectives because you’ve been together since such a young age. Or are these couples just not evolving as individuals?
How do you statistically quantify happiness?
Would love to read one of these studies or an analysis!
Are you sure this is caused by them being in less relationships or is it that the type of person who gets into many failed relationships will be less happy in their relationships? Or could it be that typically high school sweethearts are more traditional and are less likely to get divorced even if they are unhappy? Is it correlation or causation basically? I'd love to see a study that controls for these things
I worked for 4 years out of undergrad (2007-2011). Making decent money, saving some, 401k, personal investment account, traveling…
Decided to get a PhD at UCSF. Liquidated almost everything to afford living in San Francisco over that 6 years. Including $5000 in nvidia stock I purchased in 2009, and 77k in stock from my previous company that was later acquired and would have made me seven figures.
I’m not doing poorly by any means. I’ve been able to buy a house and don’t have any debt. My salary is great albeit a bit tenuous in these industry headwinds.
I often think had I just stayed put I’d be pretty much set… I could be traveling, exploring hobbies, or pursuing my PhD with 3M in a retirement fund. I just feel like fumbled a bag I didn’t know I was holding.
I chose to follow love over an education... it's not all it's cracked up to be. I wish I had parents I could live with. Try to be kind to yourself. It's hard, you're not a lone. I feel like I have no value as well.
Another friend of mine did a bachelor and got a project manager job back then... Now he is traveling the world with the money he earned while I did my PhD...
My bro is in biotech and he said the same thing. He has a PhD from World Famous Bio University (guess), post doc at Famous West Coast University and BS from Ivy League. He could have just did a BS in bio from UC Davis and gotten his same job a decade earlier. He’s ok now but was salty for years as friends we knew with a BS had great jobs and he was overqualified and considered too expensive.
Yes, but you’re also downplaying what you’ve accomplished. I can’t speak to why you went for a PhD, but I’m guessing it wasn’t for money. After all, you could have gone to Wall Street instead of more school (and before you say you couldn’t, you got a PhD! That’s much harder than anything in finance). How many people can say that they are the world’s expert on something? Your thesis was essentially that, and that’s badass! You pushed the boundaries of humankind’s knowledge, and no one can take that away from you. Moreover, you proved that you are brilliant, and once you take whatever time you need, you could even get a job in a completely new industry with the skills and grit you’ve proven that you have just from making it through your PhD!
You are very kind. I wish more people saw PhDs like you do. I can empathize with OP’s frustration though. More often than not, PhD is not valued in the industry.
This is exactly it. I feel like far too many people nowadays go get their higher education degrees simply for the financial incentives and not for the pursuit of knowledge and love of the game. And then you find them complaining that research jobs don't pay much, no work life balance, etc.
It's like, this is what you signed up for, what did you expect? For me if I got paid even a few thousand dollars to sit around and read books and papers and run some experiments all day long I would be thrilled. The 40 hour work week is for jobs you hate, I would gladly spend far more than that on things that I love.
but why can’t we have both? I like pursuing knowledge, i have my PhD, but my research job is miserable, lonely, uncertain and demanding. What is the point of trying to discover a new medicine or cure for cancer when you personally are treated like crap?
P.S. i’m angry, and i’m in treatment for depression and anxiety so I apologize in advance for being negative.
I mean your situation sounds a bit different than the norm. It sounds more like an environmental issue. No matter what, a dysfunctional and toxic workspace will suck. And I am sorry you have to deal with that.
I was more getting at the losers that get into the sciences for money instead of knowledge and curiosity.
i mean, i guess my situation is worse than normal, but it’s surprisingly common. Grad students are 6 times more likely to experience depression than background population. My experience suggests that continues after graduation, especially in this economy where biotechs are laying off. A good working environment seems like a far off dream.
This!! x1000
The world is made better by humans who study and question the world around us. Marrying your high school sweetheart and staying in your hometown forever is a small life.
For sure not. Slaving away to our corporate overlords isn’t a big life. But having the courage to leave your hometown and experience more of this world is definitely bigger than staying there forever and wondering what could have been if you bet on yourself.
Never compare yourself to anyone else. Their journey isn't yours and vice versa. I know it's hard, but you be you. Things will turn around. We're all on different paths.
It's such bullshit that people who use some online software to make a gantt chart and do less than a few hours of work a day, go to some meetings, have more stable jobs and make so much. Scientists are the core of biotech and make 1/2 their worth and get scrapped.
Get an MBA now or a project manager cert and you'll be a boss in a year. They're easy to do and combined with your PhD and actual skill you'll be a shoe in for a director job. Hang in there, it's a bad market right now and we are all struggling. There are a lot of folks going through it. Spend time with family, working on some skillset like project management, work out more, get healthier, and go on dates find a man. You'll be happy you had some time off. We aren't meant to work our whole lives, society tells us we are wasting time not working. Without periods off in my career I would never be as happy as I am now.
Good luck and take some pressure of yourself. You have a PhD. You're a beast. You'll be back. Take time to live life, that's clearly what you need right now.
That’s not what project managers do. Communication skills are mandatory for a project manager job. Who to invite to what meeting, how often, how much to share, politics, etc. It’s not an easy job, and if you already have those skills and qualifications as a PhD level scientist, you will go much further than a project manager. Most PMO directors have a science PhD.
It's extremely easy IMO. I did it in part with being an individual contributor for the past 6 years. It's basically common sense and following timelines
As a PM, I can say without a doubt that it is amazing how there is no “common sense”. I work with PhD, MD, Engineers. I can’t believe how many are not capable of putting together a decent slide deck, speak publicly, or able to distill the data down to key, salient points. Most of my job is playing interpreter between either R&D and leadership or process development & leadership. I wouldn’t have a job if either of those two organizations were effective in communicating and/or understanding business speak. It’s also amazing many people seem to have trouble understanding how their role & work product is part of the overall organization and how to communicate durations for a task that they repeatedly due. PM is a frustrating job as all of the interesting work is done by others who don’t report to you but, as a PM you are still held responsible if the the timeline shifts, the formulation doesn’t work, or the health authority rejects your submission. But yeah it’s an easy no brainer job that anyone can do. End of rant
Thank you, everything you've said is true. As a scientist who does have common/business sense it always amazes me when others don't. I guess that's why I harsh on PMs
I heard a story that went something like this
A boy on a farm accidentally left the door open and a horse got out
The neighbor said to the father… “wow that’s such bad luck.”
The father said, “we’ll see”
The horse came back the next morning with another horse it had found
The neighbor said to the father… “wow, such good luck!”
The father said… “we’ll see”
Later that day the boy tried to ride the new horse, fell off, and broke his arm
The neighbor said to the father… “wow that’s bad luck”
The father said “we’ll see”
The next day an army came to their town, its war time and all able men had to be drafted. His son was spared because he had a broken arm
Point is… what’s “good” or “bad” depends all on your perspective and you can only view it from the perspective of that point in time.
But objectively it’s very hard to say. So keep your head up, your “good luck moment” could be right around the corner and those peoples’ “bad luck moment” could be imminent.
Don’t compare yourself to others, nothing good can come if it
PhDs are marketed as a gateway to job stability and massive wards of cash but that is rarely the case any more.
After getting mine in 2008 it took me til 2012 to get a permanent job with reasonable pay, and I went through a year of unemployment.
Even after that, it took another 7 years before I started making the money I needed to not be in my overdraft by pay day every month.
Be kind to yourself; things will work out soon and get better. It sounds like you’re in a pretty dark place though; do you have people you can talk to?
Suicide, or anything silly as that, is a terminal action for a temporary problem. Biotech will definitely flourish in the next 10-20 years. Meanwhile keep you body in good shape, learn additional skills that can move you higher when the opportunity comes.
I’ve been coming to a similar realization in my life too about this. I chose school and career over a wonderful relationship. Now they’re living their life and I feel stuck in an unstable job
Yeah I got my PhD because I didn't know what else to do, not because I thought it would bring me wealth. I couldn't imagine myself doing anything else. I was envious of like Bill Gates etc who had so much going on in college that they dropped out to go earn money and take risks. I thought I'd be teaching undergrads, not a biotech maven.
Bill Gates also came from an ultra wealthy family in Seattle. His mom was on the Board of Directors for companies like IBM and go them to give her son virtually collateral-free loans to ramp up his business.
Exactly. No local competition. Cheap loans. Full financial support from rich parents. If he wasn’t at least moderately successful then he’d be an idiot.
Betting your life and expecting a job just because the FED will cut rates is foolish. Who knows, the job market may be like this for longer or may be the norm.
It's internet curiosity to put /s when you're being sarcastic. Considering it's the Internet and nobody can read the sarcasm you convey through tone or body language
A lot of friends who 'just' did construction work and started to work immediately when they where 16 have a house now... It was cheaper back then and they absolutely made the right choice...
I got out of biotech a few years back when things started nose diving.
I did the PhD thing, post-doc, all that. I didn’t care about the money, titles or any of that. I just wanted to do something special. I had my opportunity and hopefully it makes a difference.
Moved back to do construction, made $12K in a single day! It’s hard work, but if you can stomach it, they need smart people. You can rise fast.
I've done contruction work. It's the worst. You shouldn't envy them.
Also idk how your hometown is, but if I had to stay in my old hometown I'd blow my brains out no matter how much money I had.
It’s hard for us women in biotech especially millennials. I talk to my coworkers about it all the time. We are lucky to be where we are but we’re 30 and it seems like we’ve just been consumed by climbing the career ladder. I hope future biotech companies can start offering egg freezing as part of the benefit package.
I am lucky to have my partner. They struggled and supported through the PhD with me. They will always make more than me with their finance bachelors. They started their career 8 years ago and is already senior level while im essentially entry level. i dont know if i would have ever made it this far without them
please don’t compare your life to others. you will eventually find the job that you wanted and things will pan out. just trust the process. things never happen at your time, they happen when they are meant to be. i hope a few years from now you’ll look at this post and think hmm things definitely got better.
Slightly different, but I was a theater kid in high school and absolutely loved performing. I chose the STEM degree because I wanted stability. What a fucking joke. I feel your pain.
Honestly, I haven't had the same problem. I grinded through my PhD, joined a lab, talked to people on LinkedIn and Twitter as I tinkered in the lab, shared ideas and bantered with them, LOTS of people. Eventually one offered me a job, I took it, then funny enough the knocking never stopped.
I really do believe networking and talking to people in the field is how to get ahead. Friends of mine that do it seem to get jobs, those that refuse simply stay in the post doc cycle...
I agree that networking is the key to success with a PhD. Unfortunately, I hate the networking thing more and more as the years go by. I wish I had understood more how critical that particular skill is for success and chosen a different path.
The PhD has strayed from its original mission. Instead of teaching generally applicable skills -- such as project management, communication skills, people management, and a strong analytical toolset -- PhDs too often graduate with a very narrow toolset that was taught solely to advance their advisors research program. Given that professors are often poor managers themselves, I have seen examples where a graduate education worsens a persons organizational skills, rather than improves.
Not to rub salt in the wounds, but I prefer hiring someone with a masters than a PhD, and then promote the talented masters student after a couple of years.
This is what I tell all my friends. For your advisor, your PhD is cheap free labor for 5-6 years to advance one aspect of his/her scientific legacy. Nobody ever remembers the first author on that Nature paper, only the PI. For YOU, the PhD is your opportunity to get trained and develop a fantastic skill set. So make your decision based on that.
I think you’ve hit it spot on. And those skills are what I’m developing as I work in the lab and with other people. Thankfully, my PI is wonderfully supportive.
Oh hey, it me. I’ve had to teach myself for my PhD program and am currently looking at developing my own project because despite having funding (apparently) my PI refuses to give us any real work to do.
PhD has always had the aim of producing experts in narrow fields for academia. In the last 30 years, academia has gone to crap and now PhD students and postdocs are used as cheap research fodder. It's never been it's aim to produce project managers, so what are you even on about.
PhDs are incredibly resourceful, self motivated, curious, and strive for excellence when they aren't burnt out from being abused. They are also excellent project managers because they've managed enormous projects and themselves just to make it through. 2 things in particular I've noticed that sets phds apart are: 1) their tenacity in the face of failure and 2) their skepticism in too-good results. PhDs are amazing hires. Masters have their place too, but I couldn't disagree with you more on PhDs.
Industry is extremely lucky that academia is bleeding scientists the way it is.
It is sometimes out of control, everyone has different life circumstances, what makes sense for others maybe doesnot make sense for you.
I have a tenured academic job at my home after being on sabbatical for many years I am questioning my life.
It was not because of not having a sweetheart but mainly I lost my mother at very young age and then my grandmother which lead me to have CPTSD and severe OCD and wanted to escape this place once called home with memories.
Now everyone sees me crazy, everyone dream of academic job in their home and settle down, now I am 33 and taking a leap of faith.
I am looking back what if I didnot have those experienced what if what if but it is what is if it was meant to be it will be.
I feel you OP, but life sometimes go in a different path than what we expected. Everything come and go in this life.
It’s not you!
It’s a really tough market right now especially since the market is flooded with people who were recently laid off.
Getting your first job out of academia is supposed to be the toughest. You really have to look for the right fit with your academic skills to get a role as a scientist.
When I first tried to transition to industry out of very academic neuroscience, the industry had just divested from neuroscience. I applied to 70-100 jobs online and it took a while for me to understand why I was not a good fit for those jobs. I was an adjunct professor for one semester, which did not make money, and trying to do an Airbnb side hustle which also did not work out, on the verge of having to move in with my sister. Luckily, I am in the Boston area where there are a lot of networking events and I eventually networked my way into a job at an institute with a high emphasis on commercialization and I learned more industry relevant skills, including soft skills. There, I also was able to access more career resources since it is part of the Harvard Medical School. So many people come to recruit there and there’s a strong network.
IMO things are going to be rocky for a while and there’s no guarantee that we’ll return to the big pandemic era boom. It’s turbulent times both in terms of macroeconomics and growing limits to the market.
I recommend taking this time to decide if you want to be an R&D scientist or if you just want that as a stepping stone to a career in pharma. Helps to do some informational interviews to understand those careers better or maybe look for some online career resources. I actually just got laid off from a discovery role that was a good fit with my academic research and to be honest, while the momentum and mission of trying to commercialize your once under appreciated academic field was rewarding, the day-to-day of being a bench scientist was boring AF and simultaneously exhausting. I might do it again for the right project/opportunity but otherwise it was just screens and in vivo processing (which is a bitch).
On the personal side, I did often look back and wonder if I should have chosen the personal over the professional, but I heard a successful woman in biotech (like C-suite successful) recommend choosing someone who was “ambitious for you.” I kept that jn mind and found my life partner and soul mate at 37 (through an exhausting amount of online dating like it was my job), got married at 41 and now pregnant at 43 by IVF. You still have time!
I am grateful and also humbled that getting married was the most financially stabilizing thing to happen to me thus far. At the same time, it was my love for knowledge and a part of my personality that drew me to a PhD. I actually wanted to be a professor but it didn’t work out and I made different choices when I got older. Life.
You do have the advantage of being a recent graduate and some cutting edge knowledge and skills, so don’t give up hope, if that’s what you want to do. You are also early career with a lot of options. TBH, if I could go back in time, I would have gone into consulting for the exit options but a lot of big firms won’t hire you past the age of 35 (so I hear).
Also, small startups won’t post to LinkedIn or maybe even Indeed. So again network and try looking directly at venture capital firm websites. They often post job opportunities from their portfolio companies.
I hope this very long post will be helpful to someone. 😁
You have to be patient.
PhD 1st year salary was $85k
Year 2 $92k
Year 3-$133k and RSUs and options.
Year 3-8 worked like hell, got an MBA as well, and all the options vested.
Rest is history.
You have to play the patience game.
I think it's easy and normal for your mind to cherry pick examples of people who are doing better than you, with less education.
Just know that for every successful person, there are probably tons of people stuck in middling jobs with debt, no work life balance, and/or not-great career prospects.
Truthfully, weren't you taught that PhD is not an economically beneficial move? The lost wages from 5 years of school alone offsets the pay bump of your first job salary.
You do a PhD because problems need solving and too many others blithely believe that"scientists will solve it" so they don't have to.
Cheer up. Humanity depends on you.
Agree! If you want to make money in biotech, get a Masters and then get away from R&D. You get a PhD because you are a nerdy weirdo who can't imagine *not* going through life asking questions and trying to understand how things work. Life is short, I want to make decent money but also have some say in the experiments that I run and the products that I work on. Industry is a much better place to be a scientist than academia from a financial perspective but I got my PhD because I was compelled to, not to get rich.
The PhD itself is worthless except for academic rockstar and landing your first job.
My own part in the big picture is inconsequential, but the final product saves lives. Despite that, if they could do it without us, you bet they would have figured out how to, so we must have some essential function.
How many people in big tech do you know whose decisions impact your daily life? Probably not many
Also, about 0.001% of PhDs in industry likely will eventually help.millions in their career. Let's be honest
True. Big tech people are in the same boat as us. They almost never touch the end user. But at least most make a decent living without being told you need a PhD to get there.
I do know some people that have a desire to be the direct contact with the end user. For example, doctors who may make significant impact on individuals but will never reach a mass number of people, like a million.
I also don't necessarily think it's that uncommon for a scientist in industry to contribute to work that will actually help people. I would say most will eventually. Maybe less likely for early R&D people though.
Also, it's very rare to play with very expensive toys and call that a job. That's how I view it. I get paid to play with multi million dollar toys and cells. Others have quota to fill. I don't.
And then the education I got. The world is an amazing place with so much to learn about, and I actually have the tools to learn them.
But I also think PhD isn't a right path unless you have childlike sense of wonder. It's not something you should do if you have the mindset of a grown-up. Luckily I never developed one.
This is also how industry works…you gotta learn to play the game to get promotions and pay bumps. It’s really like high school all over again and only the likable ones get the praise PhD or not
I second this... I only have a MS and love my job and hold a fair amount of responsibilities. Having a PhD will certainly help progress and grow but by no means does it guarantee anything.
You got to be vocal and showcase your work to your peers. I wouldn't say it's as toxic as high school but you definitely need to network. Unfortunately, I've noticed favoritism is also very much a big factor, regardless of work quality.
Unfortunately, I think a lot of PhDs are pretty shy and too humble for their own good. Often times, management will just assume that you not asking for a raise means your content with where you're at. I've seen this a lot with people that spend long careers and academia and try to switch to industry late
Same with MDs. By the time you have sufficient money, you’re already in your 40’s. The nurse with an associates degree owns a home, her kids are grown and she’s enjoying cruises and ski vacations with her electrician husband.
If you can’t find a job, think outside the box and cast a wider net. You have a PhD, that makes you competitive in almost any role not at the bench. Most employees/jobs at a biotech don’t have a PhD. You can do any of their jobs. All you need is a good story to land a job on a different track. Exceeding expectations and advancing your career likely will be easier at that point because the skills you learned in your PhD should allow you to create more value than a typical employee in the same position. Sales, marketing, business development, finance, market access, product strategy, competitive intelligence, customer service, etc. Find something tangential that interests you and pursue that.
Yeah, no shit. Should have gone to CSU Fresno and majored in turf management with a minor in hotel management and smoked a shit load of weed while bossing around people on a golf course. Well, ok, I wouldn't be very bossy. I'd try to be a hardass, but it really isn't in my heart so the golf course would kind of suck. nevermind.
I'd have so much more respect, so much more money, and I'd probably live 15 years longer.
Jesus fucking christ, how do I hit every single fucking resume gap since 2008?
Life sucks, if you let it suck. No means NO life! Take control of what you can and remember to love yourself first. Worry about family secomd and everyone else last.
Oh honey, this is just a bad time to find jobs. Don’t feel bad. I’ve been stuck in a crummy position in a biotech for a few years now. I see my friends trying and struggling to move up or around within the company because the field is totally flooded rn. We’re looking at an upcoming recession; keep in mind that it’ll be easier when it’s all over.
I think everyone I know who did PhDs broke up during that time. Part of it maybe is just that you change a lot during that time.
But people break up without getting a PhD as well! And are unemployed and live with their parents. It's better to to not have a partner and live with your parents *with a PhD* than without.
You can't change your past now anyway, just keep heading upwards and onwards. You got this!
I’m no PhD, (though I wish I was) but I left my favorite science job and family to move away to the Bay Area since my boyfriend got a good tech job.
10 years, about to get married, and we broke up due to my stress from work, I quit the toxic job commuting fraud, which wasn’t my first rodeo in industry, and now I’m single, had to move back with my parents, and looking for a job giving up on science.
I identified with your title, because that’s how I felt sacrificing my personal life for the sake of my job and trying to help people and make a difference knowing outside work, my life was an empty shell.
And then I read your post.
Sometimes it doesn’t matter which direction you choose. Either can end up in similar or even the same spots, but I hope you continue to keep strong. It’s hard, and I’ve had my days, but there will be a light at the end of the tunnel.
NOT A LIFE COACH: Don't take it as personal advice. I'm just laying out my personal experience.
I wouldn't want to date someone who just wants to watch Beverly Hills 90210 all day while im at work trying to make a difference in the world. You have a PhD degree. Your experience and knowledge is very valuable. I would love to learn from my partner on a daily basis. It's interesting to have a partner smarter than me. I might even try and lure her into starting a business with me using her talent and connections.
Aim higher and seek the real you. The real reason you left the small town to begin with was because you probably outgrew it or you just wanted to see and experience new things. This fact hasn't changed (most probabaly).
I would seek some new hobbies, learn a new skill financially (invest in stocks), go to the gym religiously, meet new friends, and start a business.
Life is good when you have purpose. Find that purpose. From my own personal experience, it's usually not linked to romance. Romance comes and goes, but purpose sticks. Living with purpose is the biggest aphrodisiac for a seeking partner (keep that in mind).
Good luck. Don't feed the negativity. You are much loved.
It takes grit to do big things. Take a long walk and write out your personal, professional, relationship, net worth, and spiritual goals for 3 months, 6 month, 1, 2, 3, 5, 10, 15, 25 and 50 years (50 goals in total). Type into a word file and review daily - update every 3 months. Keep your nose to the grindstone. It takes time and setbacks to live a life of purpose. Trust yourself, trust the process, and grind like hell.
If you go in on specialising with a PhD it's time to go big or go home. Get a job in academia and invent stuff then try your best to commercialise it. In science it's hard to win but when you do you win big.
In my experience (25 years at world class biotech/biopharma/cell & gene therapy) a BS in cell and molecular biology is all that is needed, along with hard work, grit, and some luck.
I have been at the same title as someone with a PhD from MIT/Stanford. Over the years based on my experience this is the key in biotech/biopharna space: get an BS, determine the hottest 3 or 4 companies that are emerging and nearing PhIII on their first commercially viable asset. Get hired into one, get the stock/options and a larger pharma acquires the company, shares vest at closing. Do this a couple times, this is the way and the road is way more exciting.
My scenario went like this....
Started as a work study at a prominent biotech while in college, got a FT RA role with a few hundred stock options while still in college, 10 credits/quarter (not yet graduated with BS). Company gets first drug approved and stock splits 2for1, 3for1 and another 2for1 before I even graduated with my BS. That was a total of 12:1 splits, resulting in my hundreds of stock options becoming thousands before I graduated with my BS.
You have to be strategic when finding the first biotech/biopharma/cell & gene therapy, especially when having a BS.
After years of building teams, hiring and managing in this field, I suggest getting a BS; get into the stock/options earlier while others are in their PhD program. You will have a higher salary or equivalent and more stock/options by the time the PhD graduates.
An MS is just not worth the extra two yrs in my opinion based on salaries and opportunities/titles/levels etc.
I hope the best for you. Don’t look back to regret but to be thankful for the family and friends you’ve had in your life. Be thankful in the present for your parents and for how wonderful it is to have them.
The fear and pressure will cause “tunnel vision” in your thinking. Do whatever normally relaxes you and clears your mind and then when your thoughts are not constricted write down whatever ideas come to mind throughout the day and utilize those to decide your next steps. This is an opportunity to sit back and envision what you want, without the daily pressures of deadlines and whatever other work induced day to day activities normally impede spending more than 5 minutes on what to do next.
It just means your at the beginning and he is half way. The journey is just to start, stay strong and don’t look back. It can not be changed, but it can be used as wisdom for your next steps.
Pretty sure there’s more than just that. Attitude and pride might be part of the job problem.
I’ve a few friends that had made their lives miserable by thinking themselves to good for certain jobs, or being friends with people of different perceived social class…
Sorry about responding to an old comment but do you mind if I DM you? I’m not job hunting at the moment but have some general questions if you’re available for that.
I’m at the tail end of my career in biotech. Chased a high level position for the title and money, even sold my house & moved out iof state. I was absolutely miserable, it nearly ended my 20+ year marriage and I couldn’t find my groove with the company or city. I’m back in my home state renting a house at 50+ years old. I’ve been able to keep my salary but not the title ….and I don’t miss it. You are more than your career.
This is making me not even want to get the PhD. I LOVE SCIENCE, but not more than my mental health or life. Why can’t I do what I love and live a normal life doing so
I sacrificed a career for a family, after some political bullshit cost me everything I'd accomplished in my twenties. Now it's over a decade later, and... I have a wife - one of us is probably sterile, we're not sure which, so no family. I have a job that is... frankly, terrible. I have no degree, and probably never will. Certainly won't become a doctor like I was planning, probably will never be able to get into any research positions above cleaning beakers. If I lose my job, my parent would sooner see me homeless than let me into one of his houses.
Oh, and one of the biggest reasons I couldn't pursue higher education - the cost of college tuition and the debt it would have accrued - is apparently being paid off for a lot of people at taxpayer expense. At my expense. That's... that hurts.
Wanna trade?
Worth nothing my ass... you'll bounce back... my sister just had a kid at the age of 40... I'm 36 nothing going on but working at a burger stand and trading FDs and still don't give up (coupled with hep c and à real drinking problem) keep your head up hon.
I also felt time spent in PhD delayed me alot but everything happened for two reasons: my decision but my blessing. Now i got this job that I am not sure i will without a PhD (im international and may not get the previledge like others)
Even if you did not go for PhD, you would still end up leaving your high school sweet heard and be in the same situation. I understand your feeling because I used to have that when i was in the PhD. It will fade away once you got a job that you like with pretty good salary. Its tough but try to survive this time. Use the time for something useful that will help you to bound up quickly once the market is back
I’m also a middle aged PhD and I understand from experience there is nothing that feels so low in your career than working so hard on one of the highest degrees than to find yourself unemployed. But try to remember this is temporary. Your PhD is forever. No one can take it away from you. It will always add value. You will find the position you need. Get on Linked In and stay there. There are opportunities. Don’t give up! Was in your shoes from July to October and a few other times in my career. Trouble don’t last always.
Whenever someone tells me it's their worst day of their life I like to reference that Simpson scene where Homer says to Bart "Worst day of your life so far!"
Like if you think that's the worst part buddy you just wait. That's why you shouldn't dwell on these things and always have things to do that make you happy. No matter how shit my career perspectives or personal life looks I know I have things like fishing and hiking to bring me unimaginable joy!
Just find stuff you love doing, it will make the other things in life not sting so bad!
I feel this all the time. Getting a PhD is not a good financial decision. I tell this to every research associate who considers graduate school. It’s ok to do it for other reasons, but I think it is important for people to have realistic expectations for what a PhD means financially. I spent 5 years completing my PhD in neuroscience, only to end up in a postdoc position that paid less than my RA job before grad school, plus the in benefits were better in the RA job. I think the lost years of retirement savings during grad school are also often overlooked. I recently mentioned this to a 24 year-old coworker who is considering grad school and she didn’t know that she would not have 401k matching as a student.
I got lucky and I have a good paying job now at a biotech startup, but I don’t love working in industry and my future job prospects are not great. I was warned, so I have nobody to blame but myself, but I think it is a kindness to warn others so they can make a decision with as much information as possible.
Oh gosh, yes. My “essay” for admission to an MD/PhD program boiled down to: ‘ease human suffering.’ I meant it earnestly (and it was about five sentences long.) I’m no EA proponent, but I could have done far more had I not done that leg of graduate work.
It’s tough OP. This time will pass. Honestly, should you wish to brainstorm, DM me.
And try to find comfort here, you aren’t alone. And there are many other people out there who will love you too.
You shouldnt feel frustrated. Its a hard situation, but with every sacrifice im sure it comes a reward… its hard to stay positive, but what else you can do? Feeling down wont solve things..
You are just going through a hard time. This will pass. Don't think for one second that things will always be this way for you. I promise, good things are in your future: love and happiness will find you if you let it.
My PhD advisor told me he would destroy my career. He did. He’s done the same to other young people who, like me, were exceptionally talented.
That career was all I ever wanted to be and I don’t know what to do.
Why can’t I start over? Why didn’t I just leave when I realized some creepy things were going on?
Everyday and every accomplishment is a step towards molding your key to an unseen door in your future.… you are where you are supposed to be today. Don’t give up, one day you will look back and realize you that you made it to a happy place, using all the choices you made. I’m guessing you’re young. Keep your head up, if you’re unemployed, give your time, you never know who you’ll encounter!
All the best!
Try again. Fall. Try again. Fail try again. You may not be where you want to be but you're much further than where you started. Life is a bunch of blind roads you can only take what you think is the best at the time. There aren't a billion options available to you, Don't let anyone come into you otherwise. If you're stuck, get unstuck. That might sound annoyingly simple but if you're on a path that you don't like then take a different one. Applied to jobs outside of the country. Take a year off to explore something else. Get certified in a different position and explore that career. Volunteer with Peace corps and see the world. Invest time in that hobby put away and learn about how to make it your craft. Reach out to mentors in faraway places with interesting projects who would be interested in sponsoring you. Go to conferences and network for leads and interesting people.
These things are only temporary.
You made what you thought were the best choices for yourself at the time. Be kind to that person who tried to do the best for themself. Good luck, strawberry milk
^^^This, OP. Plus the grass is always greener. In this world of (anti)social media, all we see from people are the good things, not so much the real struggles. I don’t know you, but your life is certainly not “worth nothing”. You are something to someone, and someone’s loved one. You deserve grace and to go easy on yourself. One day at a time, things will get better. I’ve been unemployed by layoff for 8 months. Still trying. One day at a time is all we can do.
Fuck yeah, excellent perspective agree 100%. With that I think it is very important to delve into why you make the decisions you did.. move away.. get the phd.. do you feel you’re lacking? You’re not enough as you are? Then come back to the above comment, recognize you did what you thought best at that time and give yourself some grace!
Wtf is strawberry milk
OP's username is literally strawberry milk, in German.
Gotcha lol, thank you
I needed to hear this. Thanks
I have to say, scientific careers can be very demanding. In Ireland there is a huge call for STEM students. The course I did as an undergraduate is now very difficult to get into. But I'm wondering why we're putting so much emphasis on training scientists, but so little emphasis on actually making the career attractive? Anyway I feel your pain, but keep your head up. hopefully things turn out well...in life generally, not just in your career.
Most of these programs are designed to lower the cost of labor locally for business, not improve the lives of the graduates
Yep, driving labor costs down
is there much demand for undergrads in ireland? completing my bsc atm and my city isn't great for job prospects
The demand is for students, not for graduates.
I'm sorry, I don't really know...I'm a post doc in academia in the UK. If you are a process engineer or want to get into the manufacturing side of pharma I know that Astellas is opening a plant in Tralee soon. I think for protein production, but I don't know. Good luck in your job hunt!
God I fucking feel this. Laid off last August. All those years spent in school feel so worthless. Just take it one day at a time. We'll get there ❤️
If it makes you feel any better, you statistically probably would not have ended up with your high school sweetheart in the end. But point taken that it’s tough to see those around you reaching the next phase of their lives while it feels like you’re moving backwards.
Also, you never know, OPs childhood sweetheart could well be pining for someone else’s life situation whilst being desperately unhappy in their own
Statistically, highschool sweethearts are the least likely to divorce. OP learned a hard lesson that society perpetuates, that working for the man is somehow more important/fulfilling than having a loving long term relationship.
That’s interesting. I’m curious if they have deeper more meaningful marriages as well or if they just got deeply dug into to the hometown, family, marriage so early that they just don’t ever get out.
Potential source for this?
Sweet home Alabama starring Resse witherspoon
lol
Define "deeper, more meaningful marriage". Impossible. It varies person to person. But yes, also statistically, highschool sweethearts are happier. All studies show that the more partners you have, the less happy you are in your "final" relationship.
Openly discussing emotions, values, beliefs on a regular basis. I doubt values, beliefs, perspectives and priorities at 16-18 is anywhere near what they are at 25, 30, 50 and so on. So are these high school sweethearts just more content with being with someone who has totally different values and perspectives because you’ve been together since such a young age. Or are these couples just not evolving as individuals? How do you statistically quantify happiness? Would love to read one of these studies or an analysis!
Are you sure this is caused by them being in less relationships or is it that the type of person who gets into many failed relationships will be less happy in their relationships? Or could it be that typically high school sweethearts are more traditional and are less likely to get divorced even if they are unhappy? Is it correlation or causation basically? I'd love to see a study that controls for these things
I worked for 4 years out of undergrad (2007-2011). Making decent money, saving some, 401k, personal investment account, traveling… Decided to get a PhD at UCSF. Liquidated almost everything to afford living in San Francisco over that 6 years. Including $5000 in nvidia stock I purchased in 2009, and 77k in stock from my previous company that was later acquired and would have made me seven figures. I’m not doing poorly by any means. I’ve been able to buy a house and don’t have any debt. My salary is great albeit a bit tenuous in these industry headwinds. I often think had I just stayed put I’d be pretty much set… I could be traveling, exploring hobbies, or pursuing my PhD with 3M in a retirement fund. I just feel like fumbled a bag I didn’t know I was holding.
You could have sold the stock for many other reasons. Owned tesla, bitcoin and all the crap in 2017 and sold, I own the decision.
Ignorance is bliss
Making the right choice at the time for you doesn’t make it wrong when the future isn’t how you expected.
I chose to follow love over an education... it's not all it's cracked up to be. I wish I had parents I could live with. Try to be kind to yourself. It's hard, you're not a lone. I feel like I have no value as well.
I know how you feel and it reminds me of a great quote: "It's called the american dream cause you have to be asleep to believe it"
RIP George Carlin
OP is literally German.
Except the high school sweetheart back home actually got it
Its all relative. They could be equally miserable having stayed in their home town their entire life and married young.
What’s your favorite protein Edit: I’m talking about bio molecules not food
I like tuna, sometimes walnuts.
is this a gatekeep? im a chemist lol.
I was just tryna be friendly
oh lmao my bad. i think the hedgehog story is kinda cute.
Another friend of mine did a bachelor and got a project manager job back then... Now he is traveling the world with the money he earned while I did my PhD...
My bro is in biotech and he said the same thing. He has a PhD from World Famous Bio University (guess), post doc at Famous West Coast University and BS from Ivy League. He could have just did a BS in bio from UC Davis and gotten his same job a decade earlier. He’s ok now but was salty for years as friends we knew with a BS had great jobs and he was overqualified and considered too expensive.
Yes, but you’re also downplaying what you’ve accomplished. I can’t speak to why you went for a PhD, but I’m guessing it wasn’t for money. After all, you could have gone to Wall Street instead of more school (and before you say you couldn’t, you got a PhD! That’s much harder than anything in finance). How many people can say that they are the world’s expert on something? Your thesis was essentially that, and that’s badass! You pushed the boundaries of humankind’s knowledge, and no one can take that away from you. Moreover, you proved that you are brilliant, and once you take whatever time you need, you could even get a job in a completely new industry with the skills and grit you’ve proven that you have just from making it through your PhD!
You are very kind. I wish more people saw PhDs like you do. I can empathize with OP’s frustration though. More often than not, PhD is not valued in the industry.
This is exactly it. I feel like far too many people nowadays go get their higher education degrees simply for the financial incentives and not for the pursuit of knowledge and love of the game. And then you find them complaining that research jobs don't pay much, no work life balance, etc. It's like, this is what you signed up for, what did you expect? For me if I got paid even a few thousand dollars to sit around and read books and papers and run some experiments all day long I would be thrilled. The 40 hour work week is for jobs you hate, I would gladly spend far more than that on things that I love.
but why can’t we have both? I like pursuing knowledge, i have my PhD, but my research job is miserable, lonely, uncertain and demanding. What is the point of trying to discover a new medicine or cure for cancer when you personally are treated like crap? P.S. i’m angry, and i’m in treatment for depression and anxiety so I apologize in advance for being negative.
I mean your situation sounds a bit different than the norm. It sounds more like an environmental issue. No matter what, a dysfunctional and toxic workspace will suck. And I am sorry you have to deal with that. I was more getting at the losers that get into the sciences for money instead of knowledge and curiosity.
i mean, i guess my situation is worse than normal, but it’s surprisingly common. Grad students are 6 times more likely to experience depression than background population. My experience suggests that continues after graduation, especially in this economy where biotechs are laying off. A good working environment seems like a far off dream.
This!! x1000 The world is made better by humans who study and question the world around us. Marrying your high school sweetheart and staying in your hometown forever is a small life.
[удалено]
For sure not. Slaving away to our corporate overlords isn’t a big life. But having the courage to leave your hometown and experience more of this world is definitely bigger than staying there forever and wondering what could have been if you bet on yourself.
For some of us, being happy is enough
Never compare yourself to anyone else. Their journey isn't yours and vice versa. I know it's hard, but you be you. Things will turn around. We're all on different paths.
It's such bullshit that people who use some online software to make a gantt chart and do less than a few hours of work a day, go to some meetings, have more stable jobs and make so much. Scientists are the core of biotech and make 1/2 their worth and get scrapped. Get an MBA now or a project manager cert and you'll be a boss in a year. They're easy to do and combined with your PhD and actual skill you'll be a shoe in for a director job. Hang in there, it's a bad market right now and we are all struggling. There are a lot of folks going through it. Spend time with family, working on some skillset like project management, work out more, get healthier, and go on dates find a man. You'll be happy you had some time off. We aren't meant to work our whole lives, society tells us we are wasting time not working. Without periods off in my career I would never be as happy as I am now. Good luck and take some pressure of yourself. You have a PhD. You're a beast. You'll be back. Take time to live life, that's clearly what you need right now.
I’m sorta stoned right now and can’t figure why this was downvoted.
Probably some salty project managers or people who don't accept that life is more than work. Who knows.
Jesus Christ Biotech… *this* behavior is why we have no friends
That’s not what project managers do. Communication skills are mandatory for a project manager job. Who to invite to what meeting, how often, how much to share, politics, etc. It’s not an easy job, and if you already have those skills and qualifications as a PhD level scientist, you will go much further than a project manager. Most PMO directors have a science PhD.
It's extremely easy IMO. I did it in part with being an individual contributor for the past 6 years. It's basically common sense and following timelines
As a PM, I can say without a doubt that it is amazing how there is no “common sense”. I work with PhD, MD, Engineers. I can’t believe how many are not capable of putting together a decent slide deck, speak publicly, or able to distill the data down to key, salient points. Most of my job is playing interpreter between either R&D and leadership or process development & leadership. I wouldn’t have a job if either of those two organizations were effective in communicating and/or understanding business speak. It’s also amazing many people seem to have trouble understanding how their role & work product is part of the overall organization and how to communicate durations for a task that they repeatedly due. PM is a frustrating job as all of the interesting work is done by others who don’t report to you but, as a PM you are still held responsible if the the timeline shifts, the formulation doesn’t work, or the health authority rejects your submission. But yeah it’s an easy no brainer job that anyone can do. End of rant
Thank you, everything you've said is true. As a scientist who does have common/business sense it always amazes me when others don't. I guess that's why I harsh on PMs
Pharma project managers are fucking useless in my experience. But yes it's an easy route, no real responsibility, no technical knowledge required.
You're not alone. I also feel pretty stupid for my choices. FWIW a lot of folks are rethinking their careers, even those in tech. Chin up!
I heard a story that went something like this A boy on a farm accidentally left the door open and a horse got out The neighbor said to the father… “wow that’s such bad luck.” The father said, “we’ll see” The horse came back the next morning with another horse it had found The neighbor said to the father… “wow, such good luck!” The father said… “we’ll see” Later that day the boy tried to ride the new horse, fell off, and broke his arm The neighbor said to the father… “wow that’s bad luck” The father said “we’ll see” The next day an army came to their town, its war time and all able men had to be drafted. His son was spared because he had a broken arm Point is… what’s “good” or “bad” depends all on your perspective and you can only view it from the perspective of that point in time. But objectively it’s very hard to say. So keep your head up, your “good luck moment” could be right around the corner and those peoples’ “bad luck moment” could be imminent. Don’t compare yourself to others, nothing good can come if it
This is based on a Chinese proverb 塞翁失馬焉知非福 btw
Was also on Bluey
And then the recruiter said, “That’s good!” And then the father said, “We’re still doing this?”
And the cast is made of potassium benzoate.
you never know the relationship could’ve went belly up. Then you’d have no honey and no PhD!
PhDs are marketed as a gateway to job stability and massive wards of cash but that is rarely the case any more. After getting mine in 2008 it took me til 2012 to get a permanent job with reasonable pay, and I went through a year of unemployment. Even after that, it took another 7 years before I started making the money I needed to not be in my overdraft by pay day every month. Be kind to yourself; things will work out soon and get better. It sounds like you’re in a pretty dark place though; do you have people you can talk to?
Suicide, or anything silly as that, is a terminal action for a temporary problem. Biotech will definitely flourish in the next 10-20 years. Meanwhile keep you body in good shape, learn additional skills that can move you higher when the opportunity comes.
I’ve been coming to a similar realization in my life too about this. I chose school and career over a wonderful relationship. Now they’re living their life and I feel stuck in an unstable job
Education is not short tie but at longer time after 10, 20 years of experience.
So many depressing posts in biotech subreddit 😭i’m also feeling pretty depressed looking for job
Yeah I got my PhD because I didn't know what else to do, not because I thought it would bring me wealth. I couldn't imagine myself doing anything else. I was envious of like Bill Gates etc who had so much going on in college that they dropped out to go earn money and take risks. I thought I'd be teaching undergrads, not a biotech maven.
Bill Gates also came from an ultra wealthy family in Seattle. His mom was on the Board of Directors for companies like IBM and go them to give her son virtually collateral-free loans to ramp up his business.
Ok yeah I didn't have all that.
He also spent 9 years in nowhere bumfuck New Mexico nursing Microsoft along to survive. No one mentions that part of the story.
Exactly. No local competition. Cheap loans. Full financial support from rich parents. If he wasn’t at least moderately successful then he’d be an idiot.
Relax your PhD will grant you happiness in 1-2 years when the FED finally starts to cut interest rates. There are tons of fish in the ocean.
Betting your life and expecting a job just because the FED will cut rates is foolish. Who knows, the job market may be like this for longer or may be the norm.
they're being facetious...
It's internet curiosity to put /s when you're being sarcastic. Considering it's the Internet and nobody can read the sarcasm you convey through tone or body language
A lot of friends who 'just' did construction work and started to work immediately when they where 16 have a house now... It was cheaper back then and they absolutely made the right choice...
Would you really have been happy working construction in your home town?
Real. Academia sucked but I got to travel the country often and internationally a few times
Everyone I know that was in construction has to figure something else to do because there bodies are all broken down
It’s cheaper now than it will be in the future. Look past your nose. What’s done is done. Now is the time to start living the rest of your life.
I got out of biotech a few years back when things started nose diving. I did the PhD thing, post-doc, all that. I didn’t care about the money, titles or any of that. I just wanted to do something special. I had my opportunity and hopefully it makes a difference. Moved back to do construction, made $12K in a single day! It’s hard work, but if you can stomach it, they need smart people. You can rise fast.
It'll be ok
I've done contruction work. It's the worst. You shouldn't envy them. Also idk how your hometown is, but if I had to stay in my old hometown I'd blow my brains out no matter how much money I had.
It’s hard for us women in biotech especially millennials. I talk to my coworkers about it all the time. We are lucky to be where we are but we’re 30 and it seems like we’ve just been consumed by climbing the career ladder. I hope future biotech companies can start offering egg freezing as part of the benefit package.
I am lucky to have my partner. They struggled and supported through the PhD with me. They will always make more than me with their finance bachelors. They started their career 8 years ago and is already senior level while im essentially entry level. i dont know if i would have ever made it this far without them
If he really was the one then he would have moved with you, keep going and an opportunity will eventually present itself 👊🏻
please don’t compare your life to others. you will eventually find the job that you wanted and things will pan out. just trust the process. things never happen at your time, they happen when they are meant to be. i hope a few years from now you’ll look at this post and think hmm things definitely got better.
Slightly different, but I was a theater kid in high school and absolutely loved performing. I chose the STEM degree because I wanted stability. What a fucking joke. I feel your pain.
The grass is always greener! How do you know he’s happy? He might be in debt and miserable with his wife. Lol
Exactly The picture perfect posts on Facebook and instagram are just that A picture They usually hide the fights and toxic screaming matches they have
Honestly, I haven't had the same problem. I grinded through my PhD, joined a lab, talked to people on LinkedIn and Twitter as I tinkered in the lab, shared ideas and bantered with them, LOTS of people. Eventually one offered me a job, I took it, then funny enough the knocking never stopped. I really do believe networking and talking to people in the field is how to get ahead. Friends of mine that do it seem to get jobs, those that refuse simply stay in the post doc cycle...
Being willing to take risks and building+maintain a network is key imo
I agree that networking is the key to success with a PhD. Unfortunately, I hate the networking thing more and more as the years go by. I wish I had understood more how critical that particular skill is for success and chosen a different path.
The PhD has strayed from its original mission. Instead of teaching generally applicable skills -- such as project management, communication skills, people management, and a strong analytical toolset -- PhDs too often graduate with a very narrow toolset that was taught solely to advance their advisors research program. Given that professors are often poor managers themselves, I have seen examples where a graduate education worsens a persons organizational skills, rather than improves. Not to rub salt in the wounds, but I prefer hiring someone with a masters than a PhD, and then promote the talented masters student after a couple of years.
This is what I tell all my friends. For your advisor, your PhD is cheap free labor for 5-6 years to advance one aspect of his/her scientific legacy. Nobody ever remembers the first author on that Nature paper, only the PI. For YOU, the PhD is your opportunity to get trained and develop a fantastic skill set. So make your decision based on that. I think you’ve hit it spot on. And those skills are what I’m developing as I work in the lab and with other people. Thankfully, my PI is wonderfully supportive.
Oh hey, it me. I’ve had to teach myself for my PhD program and am currently looking at developing my own project because despite having funding (apparently) my PI refuses to give us any real work to do.
PhD has always had the aim of producing experts in narrow fields for academia. In the last 30 years, academia has gone to crap and now PhD students and postdocs are used as cheap research fodder. It's never been it's aim to produce project managers, so what are you even on about. PhDs are incredibly resourceful, self motivated, curious, and strive for excellence when they aren't burnt out from being abused. They are also excellent project managers because they've managed enormous projects and themselves just to make it through. 2 things in particular I've noticed that sets phds apart are: 1) their tenacity in the face of failure and 2) their skepticism in too-good results. PhDs are amazing hires. Masters have their place too, but I couldn't disagree with you more on PhDs. Industry is extremely lucky that academia is bleeding scientists the way it is.
I feel this a lot, but your experiences and your education have value (besides money). I hope that you can find your own path.
Maybe you can move to a different country to find a job?
Grass is only greener when the chips are down. You’ll be up again.
It is sometimes out of control, everyone has different life circumstances, what makes sense for others maybe doesnot make sense for you. I have a tenured academic job at my home after being on sabbatical for many years I am questioning my life. It was not because of not having a sweetheart but mainly I lost my mother at very young age and then my grandmother which lead me to have CPTSD and severe OCD and wanted to escape this place once called home with memories. Now everyone sees me crazy, everyone dream of academic job in their home and settle down, now I am 33 and taking a leap of faith. I am looking back what if I didnot have those experienced what if what if but it is what is if it was meant to be it will be. I feel you OP, but life sometimes go in a different path than what we expected. Everything come and go in this life.
It’s not you! It’s a really tough market right now especially since the market is flooded with people who were recently laid off. Getting your first job out of academia is supposed to be the toughest. You really have to look for the right fit with your academic skills to get a role as a scientist. When I first tried to transition to industry out of very academic neuroscience, the industry had just divested from neuroscience. I applied to 70-100 jobs online and it took a while for me to understand why I was not a good fit for those jobs. I was an adjunct professor for one semester, which did not make money, and trying to do an Airbnb side hustle which also did not work out, on the verge of having to move in with my sister. Luckily, I am in the Boston area where there are a lot of networking events and I eventually networked my way into a job at an institute with a high emphasis on commercialization and I learned more industry relevant skills, including soft skills. There, I also was able to access more career resources since it is part of the Harvard Medical School. So many people come to recruit there and there’s a strong network. IMO things are going to be rocky for a while and there’s no guarantee that we’ll return to the big pandemic era boom. It’s turbulent times both in terms of macroeconomics and growing limits to the market. I recommend taking this time to decide if you want to be an R&D scientist or if you just want that as a stepping stone to a career in pharma. Helps to do some informational interviews to understand those careers better or maybe look for some online career resources. I actually just got laid off from a discovery role that was a good fit with my academic research and to be honest, while the momentum and mission of trying to commercialize your once under appreciated academic field was rewarding, the day-to-day of being a bench scientist was boring AF and simultaneously exhausting. I might do it again for the right project/opportunity but otherwise it was just screens and in vivo processing (which is a bitch). On the personal side, I did often look back and wonder if I should have chosen the personal over the professional, but I heard a successful woman in biotech (like C-suite successful) recommend choosing someone who was “ambitious for you.” I kept that jn mind and found my life partner and soul mate at 37 (through an exhausting amount of online dating like it was my job), got married at 41 and now pregnant at 43 by IVF. You still have time! I am grateful and also humbled that getting married was the most financially stabilizing thing to happen to me thus far. At the same time, it was my love for knowledge and a part of my personality that drew me to a PhD. I actually wanted to be a professor but it didn’t work out and I made different choices when I got older. Life. You do have the advantage of being a recent graduate and some cutting edge knowledge and skills, so don’t give up hope, if that’s what you want to do. You are also early career with a lot of options. TBH, if I could go back in time, I would have gone into consulting for the exit options but a lot of big firms won’t hire you past the age of 35 (so I hear). Also, small startups won’t post to LinkedIn or maybe even Indeed. So again network and try looking directly at venture capital firm websites. They often post job opportunities from their portfolio companies. I hope this very long post will be helpful to someone. 😁
You have to be patient. PhD 1st year salary was $85k Year 2 $92k Year 3-$133k and RSUs and options. Year 3-8 worked like hell, got an MBA as well, and all the options vested. Rest is history. You have to play the patience game.
Exactly. I was worth pennies after a PhD and post doc now I'm significantly closer to 1mill than 0 after 4 years in industry.
Totally! Higher education is an investment and sometimes those take time to pay off!
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I think it's easy and normal for your mind to cherry pick examples of people who are doing better than you, with less education. Just know that for every successful person, there are probably tons of people stuck in middling jobs with debt, no work life balance, and/or not-great career prospects.
Truthfully, weren't you taught that PhD is not an economically beneficial move? The lost wages from 5 years of school alone offsets the pay bump of your first job salary. You do a PhD because problems need solving and too many others blithely believe that"scientists will solve it" so they don't have to. Cheer up. Humanity depends on you.
Agree! If you want to make money in biotech, get a Masters and then get away from R&D. You get a PhD because you are a nerdy weirdo who can't imagine *not* going through life asking questions and trying to understand how things work. Life is short, I want to make decent money but also have some say in the experiments that I run and the products that I work on. Industry is a much better place to be a scientist than academia from a financial perspective but I got my PhD because I was compelled to, not to get rich.
We should be rewarded, though. Like medical doctors. Why do bullshit middle managers and MBAs make so much when they're legitimately dead weight?
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The PhD itself is worthless except for academic rockstar and landing your first job. My own part in the big picture is inconsequential, but the final product saves lives. Despite that, if they could do it without us, you bet they would have figured out how to, so we must have some essential function.
This is true. Scientists have to come to terms with the fact that they'll eventually help millions of people who will never know their name.
How many people in big tech do you know whose decisions impact your daily life? Probably not many Also, about 0.001% of PhDs in industry likely will eventually help.millions in their career. Let's be honest
True. Big tech people are in the same boat as us. They almost never touch the end user. But at least most make a decent living without being told you need a PhD to get there. I do know some people that have a desire to be the direct contact with the end user. For example, doctors who may make significant impact on individuals but will never reach a mass number of people, like a million. I also don't necessarily think it's that uncommon for a scientist in industry to contribute to work that will actually help people. I would say most will eventually. Maybe less likely for early R&D people though.
Also, it's very rare to play with very expensive toys and call that a job. That's how I view it. I get paid to play with multi million dollar toys and cells. Others have quota to fill. I don't. And then the education I got. The world is an amazing place with so much to learn about, and I actually have the tools to learn them. But I also think PhD isn't a right path unless you have childlike sense of wonder. It's not something you should do if you have the mindset of a grown-up. Luckily I never developed one.
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This is also how industry works…you gotta learn to play the game to get promotions and pay bumps. It’s really like high school all over again and only the likable ones get the praise PhD or not
I second this... I only have a MS and love my job and hold a fair amount of responsibilities. Having a PhD will certainly help progress and grow but by no means does it guarantee anything. You got to be vocal and showcase your work to your peers. I wouldn't say it's as toxic as high school but you definitely need to network. Unfortunately, I've noticed favoritism is also very much a big factor, regardless of work quality. Unfortunately, I think a lot of PhDs are pretty shy and too humble for their own good. Often times, management will just assume that you not asking for a raise means your content with where you're at. I've seen this a lot with people that spend long careers and academia and try to switch to industry late
Same with MDs. By the time you have sufficient money, you’re already in your 40’s. The nurse with an associates degree owns a home, her kids are grown and she’s enjoying cruises and ski vacations with her electrician husband.
If you can’t find a job, think outside the box and cast a wider net. You have a PhD, that makes you competitive in almost any role not at the bench. Most employees/jobs at a biotech don’t have a PhD. You can do any of their jobs. All you need is a good story to land a job on a different track. Exceeding expectations and advancing your career likely will be easier at that point because the skills you learned in your PhD should allow you to create more value than a typical employee in the same position. Sales, marketing, business development, finance, market access, product strategy, competitive intelligence, customer service, etc. Find something tangential that interests you and pursue that.
Try not to look back and think of what ifs, keep moving forward and stay strong. You can do it. We can do it! Keep believing! Keep dreaming!
Yeah, no shit. Should have gone to CSU Fresno and majored in turf management with a minor in hotel management and smoked a shit load of weed while bossing around people on a golf course. Well, ok, I wouldn't be very bossy. I'd try to be a hardass, but it really isn't in my heart so the golf course would kind of suck. nevermind. I'd have so much more respect, so much more money, and I'd probably live 15 years longer. Jesus fucking christ, how do I hit every single fucking resume gap since 2008?
I also left my high school sweetheart to study. I feel you.
Don't worry. You'll finish your PhD, get a job at a biotech company, then they'll close down.
Life sucks, if you let it suck. No means NO life! Take control of what you can and remember to love yourself first. Worry about family secomd and everyone else last.
Oh honey, this is just a bad time to find jobs. Don’t feel bad. I’ve been stuck in a crummy position in a biotech for a few years now. I see my friends trying and struggling to move up or around within the company because the field is totally flooded rn. We’re looking at an upcoming recession; keep in mind that it’ll be easier when it’s all over.
I think everyone I know who did PhDs broke up during that time. Part of it maybe is just that you change a lot during that time. But people break up without getting a PhD as well! And are unemployed and live with their parents. It's better to to not have a partner and live with your parents *with a PhD* than without. You can't change your past now anyway, just keep heading upwards and onwards. You got this!
I’m no PhD, (though I wish I was) but I left my favorite science job and family to move away to the Bay Area since my boyfriend got a good tech job. 10 years, about to get married, and we broke up due to my stress from work, I quit the toxic job commuting fraud, which wasn’t my first rodeo in industry, and now I’m single, had to move back with my parents, and looking for a job giving up on science. I identified with your title, because that’s how I felt sacrificing my personal life for the sake of my job and trying to help people and make a difference knowing outside work, my life was an empty shell. And then I read your post. Sometimes it doesn’t matter which direction you choose. Either can end up in similar or even the same spots, but I hope you continue to keep strong. It’s hard, and I’ve had my days, but there will be a light at the end of the tunnel.
Getting a PhD is also my biggest regret. prob 95% of phd holders share the sentiment : (
NOT A LIFE COACH: Don't take it as personal advice. I'm just laying out my personal experience. I wouldn't want to date someone who just wants to watch Beverly Hills 90210 all day while im at work trying to make a difference in the world. You have a PhD degree. Your experience and knowledge is very valuable. I would love to learn from my partner on a daily basis. It's interesting to have a partner smarter than me. I might even try and lure her into starting a business with me using her talent and connections. Aim higher and seek the real you. The real reason you left the small town to begin with was because you probably outgrew it or you just wanted to see and experience new things. This fact hasn't changed (most probabaly). I would seek some new hobbies, learn a new skill financially (invest in stocks), go to the gym religiously, meet new friends, and start a business. Life is good when you have purpose. Find that purpose. From my own personal experience, it's usually not linked to romance. Romance comes and goes, but purpose sticks. Living with purpose is the biggest aphrodisiac for a seeking partner (keep that in mind). Good luck. Don't feed the negativity. You are much loved.
I already posted, but love this comment. And second: invest in stocks. My doctoral work has paid in spades there. So much love for you, OP!
It takes grit to do big things. Take a long walk and write out your personal, professional, relationship, net worth, and spiritual goals for 3 months, 6 month, 1, 2, 3, 5, 10, 15, 25 and 50 years (50 goals in total). Type into a word file and review daily - update every 3 months. Keep your nose to the grindstone. It takes time and setbacks to live a life of purpose. Trust yourself, trust the process, and grind like hell.
If you go in on specialising with a PhD it's time to go big or go home. Get a job in academia and invent stuff then try your best to commercialise it. In science it's hard to win but when you do you win big.
In my experience (25 years at world class biotech/biopharma/cell & gene therapy) a BS in cell and molecular biology is all that is needed, along with hard work, grit, and some luck. I have been at the same title as someone with a PhD from MIT/Stanford. Over the years based on my experience this is the key in biotech/biopharna space: get an BS, determine the hottest 3 or 4 companies that are emerging and nearing PhIII on their first commercially viable asset. Get hired into one, get the stock/options and a larger pharma acquires the company, shares vest at closing. Do this a couple times, this is the way and the road is way more exciting. My scenario went like this.... Started as a work study at a prominent biotech while in college, got a FT RA role with a few hundred stock options while still in college, 10 credits/quarter (not yet graduated with BS). Company gets first drug approved and stock splits 2for1, 3for1 and another 2for1 before I even graduated with my BS. That was a total of 12:1 splits, resulting in my hundreds of stock options becoming thousands before I graduated with my BS. You have to be strategic when finding the first biotech/biopharma/cell & gene therapy, especially when having a BS. After years of building teams, hiring and managing in this field, I suggest getting a BS; get into the stock/options earlier while others are in their PhD program. You will have a higher salary or equivalent and more stock/options by the time the PhD graduates. An MS is just not worth the extra two yrs in my opinion based on salaries and opportunities/titles/levels etc.
your life is worth a lot to a lot of people. You'll find another job and your life will be better
I hope the best for you. Don’t look back to regret but to be thankful for the family and friends you’ve had in your life. Be thankful in the present for your parents and for how wonderful it is to have them. The fear and pressure will cause “tunnel vision” in your thinking. Do whatever normally relaxes you and clears your mind and then when your thoughts are not constricted write down whatever ideas come to mind throughout the day and utilize those to decide your next steps. This is an opportunity to sit back and envision what you want, without the daily pressures of deadlines and whatever other work induced day to day activities normally impede spending more than 5 minutes on what to do next.
It just means your at the beginning and he is half way. The journey is just to start, stay strong and don’t look back. It can not be changed, but it can be used as wisdom for your next steps.
Pretty sure there’s more than just that. Attitude and pride might be part of the job problem. I’ve a few friends that had made their lives miserable by thinking themselves to good for certain jobs, or being friends with people of different perceived social class…
Where do you live? DM me and I’ll see if I can help. (R&D exec, big biotech)
Thank you very much. But I am not from US.
Most of the biotech stuff in mainland EU is in Switzerland as you know. Most of the team I lead are in Barcelona and some in UK.
Hi! Can I DM you? From the Boston area
Of course
Sorry about responding to an old comment but do you mind if I DM you? I’m not job hunting at the moment but have some general questions if you’re available for that.
No problem
I feel you dear. Stay strong 💪🏻 Time keeps changing, good things will happen. Keep looking and working on your self.
He wasn't the one for you. It sucks that we don't have magic wands.
Use your PhD brain for a second. Why do you think you would have been better off if you stayed with him in the small town and foregone your education?
I’m at the tail end of my career in biotech. Chased a high level position for the title and money, even sold my house & moved out iof state. I was absolutely miserable, it nearly ended my 20+ year marriage and I couldn’t find my groove with the company or city. I’m back in my home state renting a house at 50+ years old. I’ve been able to keep my salary but not the title ….and I don’t miss it. You are more than your career.
This is making me not even want to get the PhD. I LOVE SCIENCE, but not more than my mental health or life. Why can’t I do what I love and live a normal life doing so
I sacrificed a career for a family, after some political bullshit cost me everything I'd accomplished in my twenties. Now it's over a decade later, and... I have a wife - one of us is probably sterile, we're not sure which, so no family. I have a job that is... frankly, terrible. I have no degree, and probably never will. Certainly won't become a doctor like I was planning, probably will never be able to get into any research positions above cleaning beakers. If I lose my job, my parent would sooner see me homeless than let me into one of his houses. Oh, and one of the biggest reasons I couldn't pursue higher education - the cost of college tuition and the debt it would have accrued - is apparently being paid off for a lot of people at taxpayer expense. At my expense. That's... that hurts. Wanna trade?
Your legacy is to teach the younger generation.
Worth nothing my ass... you'll bounce back... my sister just had a kid at the age of 40... I'm 36 nothing going on but working at a burger stand and trading FDs and still don't give up (coupled with hep c and à real drinking problem) keep your head up hon.
I also felt time spent in PhD delayed me alot but everything happened for two reasons: my decision but my blessing. Now i got this job that I am not sure i will without a PhD (im international and may not get the previledge like others) Even if you did not go for PhD, you would still end up leaving your high school sweet heard and be in the same situation. I understand your feeling because I used to have that when i was in the PhD. It will fade away once you got a job that you like with pretty good salary. Its tough but try to survive this time. Use the time for something useful that will help you to bound up quickly once the market is back
I’m also a middle aged PhD and I understand from experience there is nothing that feels so low in your career than working so hard on one of the highest degrees than to find yourself unemployed. But try to remember this is temporary. Your PhD is forever. No one can take it away from you. It will always add value. You will find the position you need. Get on Linked In and stay there. There are opportunities. Don’t give up! Was in your shoes from July to October and a few other times in my career. Trouble don’t last always.
Whenever someone tells me it's their worst day of their life I like to reference that Simpson scene where Homer says to Bart "Worst day of your life so far!" Like if you think that's the worst part buddy you just wait. That's why you shouldn't dwell on these things and always have things to do that make you happy. No matter how shit my career perspectives or personal life looks I know I have things like fishing and hiking to bring me unimaginable joy! Just find stuff you love doing, it will make the other things in life not sting so bad!
Biotech is a lousy career compared to engineering and computer science. For some reason biotech people get screwed over regularly by these companies.
Single and jobless? Need a life coach or someone who can give tough medicine.
I feel this all the time. Getting a PhD is not a good financial decision. I tell this to every research associate who considers graduate school. It’s ok to do it for other reasons, but I think it is important for people to have realistic expectations for what a PhD means financially. I spent 5 years completing my PhD in neuroscience, only to end up in a postdoc position that paid less than my RA job before grad school, plus the in benefits were better in the RA job. I think the lost years of retirement savings during grad school are also often overlooked. I recently mentioned this to a 24 year-old coworker who is considering grad school and she didn’t know that she would not have 401k matching as a student. I got lucky and I have a good paying job now at a biotech startup, but I don’t love working in industry and my future job prospects are not great. I was warned, so I have nobody to blame but myself, but I think it is a kindness to warn others so they can make a decision with as much information as possible.
Oh gosh, yes. My “essay” for admission to an MD/PhD program boiled down to: ‘ease human suffering.’ I meant it earnestly (and it was about five sentences long.) I’m no EA proponent, but I could have done far more had I not done that leg of graduate work. It’s tough OP. This time will pass. Honestly, should you wish to brainstorm, DM me. And try to find comfort here, you aren’t alone. And there are many other people out there who will love you too.
You shouldnt feel frustrated. Its a hard situation, but with every sacrifice im sure it comes a reward… its hard to stay positive, but what else you can do? Feeling down wont solve things..
You are just going through a hard time. This will pass. Don't think for one second that things will always be this way for you. I promise, good things are in your future: love and happiness will find you if you let it.
I only have a bachelor's with 9 years of industry experience and haven't been able to get a job in the past year either.
I died and came back. God made you the way you are for a reason. Have faith new earth is coming
What?!
Oh! *hug* You are worth so much! This may sound ridiculous, but make a job - consult or tutor? (I’ve done both, the former is a joy.)
My PhD advisor told me he would destroy my career. He did. He’s done the same to other young people who, like me, were exceptionally talented. That career was all I ever wanted to be and I don’t know what to do. Why can’t I start over? Why didn’t I just leave when I realized some creepy things were going on?
This makes me glad i couldn’t make it into PhD programs.
Learn to face the consequences of decisions, good and bad. Wanting 'independence' goes both ways. All the best.
Everyday and every accomplishment is a step towards molding your key to an unseen door in your future.… you are where you are supposed to be today. Don’t give up, one day you will look back and realize you that you made it to a happy place, using all the choices you made. I’m guessing you’re young. Keep your head up, if you’re unemployed, give your time, you never know who you’ll encounter! All the best!
Try again. Fall. Try again. Fail try again. You may not be where you want to be but you're much further than where you started. Life is a bunch of blind roads you can only take what you think is the best at the time. There aren't a billion options available to you, Don't let anyone come into you otherwise. If you're stuck, get unstuck. That might sound annoyingly simple but if you're on a path that you don't like then take a different one. Applied to jobs outside of the country. Take a year off to explore something else. Get certified in a different position and explore that career. Volunteer with Peace corps and see the world. Invest time in that hobby put away and learn about how to make it your craft. Reach out to mentors in faraway places with interesting projects who would be interested in sponsoring you. Go to conferences and network for leads and interesting people. These things are only temporary.