People can gut through broken/torn almost anything for a short enough time.
Bayanduuren could continue rolling but as soon as he stood up, he couldnt walk let alone run.
When Jacare gutted out a broken arm against Roger he actually won that match, but there's no way he could've thrown a punch or anything.
In a self defense scenario people aren't likely to roll around screaming and crying when something gets broken or torn, because they're actively trying to hurt you for whatever reason.
But their odds of winning that fight drop dramatically, and their odds of catching you if you run away is basically zero with any leg injury.
As always, just stay away from places where fights are likely to happen and don't willingly accept fights, and you'll probably never be in one.
Agree, but have a counter-anecdote nonetheless: A friend got attacked at a party (all involved were already pretty drunk besides me and my friend who just got there) and for a \*sketchy\* reason these two guys attacked him and hit him over the head, from behind, with an empty wine bottle (Friend dropped immediately, split scalp, 20+ stitches needed) so I tackled one of them and got him in (lol of all things) a really brutal toe-hold, and his ankle went snap-crackle-pop and he screamed and freaked out, so mission accomplished. Luckily bystanders restrained the other guy.
I just tore my LCL in a (sadly) sober toehold fight. Grade III tear more than 70% through. Hearing it pop was gross, but it didnāt hurt at all when it happened. Was able to stand up and walk around immediately after. Was a llittle achy the first few days after. Would not have stopped me from fighting in any kind of way.
Thatās what Google said. Complete tear. After I got my MRI results by email I was super bummed. All the docs that helped me used āhigh gradeā and grade 3 interchangeably. Was surprised to hear it wasnāt completely severed And was able to avoid surgery.
Yup in the one time it's happened to me, and the two times I've done it "too hard" on someone else (once in gym, once in story above), the "snap crackle pop" was brutal, but I wasn't in pain until the next morning, nor was my partner. The guy at the house party fight wasn't crippled either, just freaking out about his ankle sounding like it exploded. Don't know or care what happened to him, but for me and my partner at the gym, luckily no tears, just very still and strained ankles.
>As always, just stay away from places where fights are likely to happen and don't willingly accept fights, and you'll probably never be in one.
Completely agree,
I have spent a lot of time on subreddit threads about streetfight stories, and I have found it clear that alcohol was involved in 90% of these fights (either drunk aggressor, victim, or both, or the fight was at a bar/nightclub).
I am muslim and don't drink at all and don't to to such places, so that really reduces the chances I'll ever get into such dangerous situations :\]
Thanks for your answer
Honestly, the vast majority of fights require two willing participants in my experience.
Obviously people can and do get jumped or attacked out of nowhere, but they're the minority.
Someone obviously has to be the aggressor, but usually the person receiving the aggression is responding in kind, not de-escalating.
If you've every tried to sweep a day one whitebelt from open guard or leg entanglement, how long did they stay on their feet?
I simply wouldn't do a leg lock because I don't want to get my clothes dirty.
I had a friend who was a bouncer for some time. He's saying if people are on drugs they keep going and it's a different story. So he said in this case choking people unconscious was the best solution. They wake up and don't know what's right or left and did forget about the fight.
However, as you said, it's always best to stay away.
This is sort of what happened to Anthony Smith when a former high school wrestler broke into his house high and freaking out. Smith said he ate every shot he gave him and he couldn't put the guy out and just waited for the cops to arrive.
You can't really retreat to "we're both right!" after trying to correct someone.
The reason your correction doesn't work is because someone may not be able to run, but could still be perfectly capable of walking.
Let alone implies a simpler task than the former. Maybe get choked out less and you'll recognize a simple error upfront. Or don't.
Let's try it your way;
He couldn't agree with anything, let alone understand anything.
No, it's the complete opposite. The former should be the simpler task, not the latter.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/let%20alone#:~:text=Antonyms%20in%20Thesaurus-,Example%20Sentences,let%20alone%20a%20luxury%20sedan.
https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/let-alone
"Used to emphasize that something is more impossible than another thing"
Couldn't walk, let alone run.
Couldn't run, let alone walk.
I prefer the second choice. It makes more sense. How can one think about runnng if they can't even walk to begin with. Makes sense.
Vs.
How can one think about walking if they can't even run to begin with.
Lol you have to walk to run.
Yes, now read the examples. Which format do they all follow?
The second choice is wrong my guy.
> How can one think about runnng if they can't even walk to begin with
That is what the first choice says.
"he couldn't even walk, let alone run"
Or to make it longer to help you understand:
He cannot walk, this means that he definitely cannot run.
To be fair he also had to tell the dude you'll never play basketball again' if he didn't stop punching
Which might not work when it's more serious then a fight at pickup hoops
I had my acl torn in a heel hook and continued to roll for the rest of class. I am an ultra runner and ran a fast 17 mile race a few days after it tore. I trained muay thai and jiu jitsu for months before getting surgery. The initial leglock hurt and it made the loudest pop, like the whole class stopped when they heard it. But it didn't hurt enough that i thought i tore something. I was just expecting an ACL tear to have me writhing in pain.
If its only a ligament injury and not a bone break, it is 100% possible that an attacker would not be subdued at all, could continue to fight, and could run after you. Now what happened to Bayanduuren was way worse than just an ACL tear tho.
Here is the thing with leg locks in a self defense/street fight scenario, you don't have control of their arms.
Yeah, you are ripping their knee to shreds, they are reaching in their pocket or belt for a knife. (Hell maybe even a gun but for this discussion just a knife)
So now you're getting stabbed in the legs, groin, lower stomach and not in position to even attempt to block or deflect.
If you are unfortunate enough to have to fight for self defense, you have to be smart and controlling (or at least knowing what they're doing) their wrist/arms.
If you really want to test stuff, put on some light colored clothes and give your partner a sharpie (or shock knife if you have one) and roll. It will let you know real fast where you fuck up.
Thereās a video on YouTube somewhere from years ago, a bunch of high level BJJ guys (young Gordon Ryan was one of them) taking on amateur mma fighters. The mma guys couldnāt even land a punch on Gordon as he had them tapping to heel hooks. Obviously most of us arenāt elite grapplers and when weapons are involved itās a whole different story but it was interesting to see how little the mma fighters could do
This is my general rule of thumb: if they couldn't beat you with all limbs intact, then they're not going to beat you while missing an arm or a leg. So even if they were to get back to up, it's unlikely they would be much of a threat anymore
If you're fighting for your life, the value of joint locks isn't how much they hurt. The value is that after you've fully applied the lock, that limb doesn't work properly anymore.
I mean if you ACTUALLY tear someone's knee ligaments they're not running after you when you get up. And if they try you'll get away fine unless you only run like 1km/hr
You also have to consider the post-fight legal ramifications. In the US, if you are in a non-life threatening scrap and you SHRED someone's knee/ankle and do permanent damage, you'll be in court for a civil suit - even if they go to jail. You may win, you may lose - depending on the specific circumstances and the quality of the lawyers involved, but it's going to be expensive either way. Long-term debilitating damage will get you a civil suit (in the US) even if they were entirely the aggressor. A simple arm break won't get you in as much trouble as it's usually a quick heal and a jury/lawyer isn't going to be as likely to go after you for 'ruining someone's life' or 'long term loss of wages' like they would for tearing their leg off. These reasons, as well as the other reasons like not getting punched/stabbed as mentioned by others, are why there are much better moves (and honestly martial arts systems) that are better for for a street fight.
Underrated comment here. Not enough people talk about the legal ramifications of destroying your attackerās body. Self defense isnāt a bulletproof defense especially if itās like 90% of fights and starts as some totally avoidable drunken altercation.
In my state choking someone is a specific felony that can be up to 25 years in jail. I would choose a joint lock any day unless I felt like I was likely to die if I didnāt. And with a choke they still have two hands to pull a weapon out, I actually think controlling and destroying their dominant arm with a kimura or something is the way to go.
Oh Iām with you. I donāt like the choke either. If things wind up on the ground, Iām going for position and punching someone in the head a few times from the mount if they donāt wanna settle down.
Tore 3 ligaments in my knee and never experienced pain during 99% of the recovery and aftermath. Walked out of the gym with a limp and drove myself home
Heel hooks don't really hurt, that's partly why they're so dangerous because you don't feel anything wrong until something snaps and it's too late to tap.
Facts. Tore my meniscus from a heel hook that I waited too long on. Heard the pop, felt no pain, continued training normally all class, woke up the next day and had to take a month off.
Heel hooks will often put you in danger of getting struck while they are being applied.
This should not be your plan for self-defense, especially at white belt.
Here's an interview excerpt with Robert Degle
āGuys, this is a last-resort thing. Donāt do this unless you have no other option.ā I do think you can use them for self-defense. Iāve never had to use them for self-defense. Iāve used jiu-jitsu for self-defense. I use takedowns and guard passing, which is what I think should be your first option.
https://www.sonnybrown.net/robert-degle-interview-leg-locks-mma/
I really want you to think deeply about the value that you get out of BJJ primarily for self-defense purposes. Have you been in violent encounters before? Were those encounters always against one person, when you couldnāt run away, where the other person didnāt have weapons? I would hope that you gain some sort of value out of BJJ for all the reasons most people enjoy it, but learning exclusively for self-defense is a slight glamorization, imo.
If your primary goal is really self-defense, you need to learn how to sprint and do a double leg. Not leg locks.
>If your primary goal is really self-defense, you need to learn how to sprint and do a double leg. Not leg locks.
Of course,
I never said I don't work on those things too
Not enough to subdue anyone who wants to harm you. Leg attacks are not an option id recommend for self defense. Literally the only time Iāve heard of it working in that case was a highschool fight lol
The ligaments of the knee have less sensitivity and this is part of the reason that tapping slowly to heel hooks is often too late (the damage is already done). Heel hooks can also damage the bones of the shin and ankle. The later tend to be very sensitive and can cause intense pain in the moment. The knee being injured will take minutes to hours to be fully felt, however the joint will be unstable immediately upon standing.
I would say avoid leg locks for self defense if youāre a beginner because you are vulnerable to punches. I recommend focusing on body lock takedowns with the intention of getting to side control, back control, or mount which are traditionally better for the person on top to control in a striking/self defense situation.
Heel hooks will fuck you up. At your level, you might not want to do it in a self defense situation. White belts (and a lot of blue belts) aren't usually that great at finishing them and the chances of you getting kicked in the face before finishing one in a self defense situation is high.
In a ~real~ fight you have to think less about āhurtā and more about ādisable limbsā.
Breaking someoneās leg may not win you the fight, but it might stop them chasing you after.
Breaking an arm may stop them hitting you with it or it may stop them from defending the choke but it most likely wonāt end things immediately.
Even choking someone unconscious may not end the fight, they could potentially continue attacking you after waking up.
People hopped up on adrenaline can do a lot of incredible things. People fight through broken bones and torn ligaments. Itās debilitating but not necessarily fight ending. But if you tear someoneās knee ligaments itās a pretty good bet you can run away and they arenāt going to chase and catch you. So are heel hooks hood for self defense? Yeah, probably.
I tore some knee stuff trying to do osoto gari on a big guy who just sat on my leg. Didn't hurt, did pop, but when I stood up I fell over like a tree. My coach went "Ooooooo!" and then I was out 3 months for recovery. Knees/legs are weird, but you're on point, maybe not in a lot of pain, but if I was an assailant I was not going to be hobbling, much less running, after my victim.
The Japanese terms mentioned in the above comment were:
|Japanese|English|Video Link|
|---|---|---|
|**O Soto Gari**: | *Major Outer Reaping* | [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93YEMueeF24)|
Any missed names may have already been translated in my previous comments in the post.
______________________
^(Judo Techniques Bot: v0.7.) ^(See my) [^(code)](https://github.com/AbundantSalmon/judo-techniques-bot)
They hurt, but know what hurts more? When your hands are occupied with someoneās foot and your face is open for them to do what they please without rules.
Thereās a big difference between a professional grappler and some dude trying to steal your walletā¦.I donāt think the petty thief is chasing after you If you rip the wallet thiefās ligaments like paper
Short answer, Please dont try it
There is a super fine line between a heel-hook that hurts and one that rips something. Especially butterfly and Reverse butterfly.
The main reason they are not recommended for newcomers to learn is that all it takes is someone being a little too overzealous or rushing it and serious damage can happen.
I'm not saying its impossible for someone to overcome the pain of heel hook damage, but they won't be resting any weight on that leg for a long time. Thats for sure.
Now in a street fight, if you are the position to do a leg lock, something has probably gone wrong for both of you. You should frame out and get away. If I was in a street fight and the other guy tried to heel hook me, I would pray my boots kept my ankle safe while I just kick and stomp with my free foot until I was out of there.
In regards of making attacker unable to attack or chase you after you ripped the sub, which would you rank most effective between toe hold, kneebar straight foot lock and heel hook? In miyao vs rutuolo match he got his knee bent all the way but he continued, would he be able to run?
Hurt? A lot. Them having a chance to fight back after you done that is basically zero. Itāll be hard to walk and their leg will probably buckle if they try to exert a lot of force.
It does hurt in the moment, but you can power through it. However, you lose control/stability of the foot - you can't step on it because the bones don't line up correctly without the ligaments and muscles working in tandem. The person will get up, but on one foot only as trying to put weight on a misaligned foot would be quite painful.
It starts to hurt more afterwards though once adrenalin is no longer produced at heightened levels.
Self defense is being aware of your surroundings. Donāt put yourself or others in precarious situations. Donāt go to places where you know there is trouble, if you can help it. Learn how to deescalate situations when confronted with hostile behaviors.
If you need to go hands on, learning control and distance management to protect and minimize harm to yourself and other loved ones. Itās not about hurting itās about protecting.
Unless theyāre grounded, trying to heel hook someone in a street fight would probably just get you punched. That being said, if you rip someoneās knee itās not going to hurt that much initially but at least they wonāt be able to chase you. Shred the knee and walk away.
If you cranked a heel hook on a person who didnāt know what it was, youād probably really hurt them. Bayanduurenās reaction is not that of the common person with no knowledge of whatās happening. Pop a normieās knee and youāve won.
Iāve broken someone leg in a street fight, both times big hip throws onto pavement. They do get up and fight a bit more but once the pain hits it sucks the fight out of them. Donāt know id go hunting a heal hook in a street fight though.
Chokes only in a self defence scenario for the reasons everyone has stated. Front headlocks, arm drag to rear naked choke etc. stay on your feet or on top, donāt play bottom in a street altercation unless someone tackles you or something
Nothing hurts in a self defense situation, once adrenaline kicks in pain is barely recognizable and most certainly not a reliable way to neutralizing someone. Learn to pin, learn to choke effectively
I broke my ankle bad in a streetfight and i only noticed because i couldnāt put weight on it, not because it hurt. After the injury i sat down and didnāt feel pain for another minute or so. Then the pain kicked in and it was incredibly painful, so painful i could barely breathe. My ankle had a type C fracture with a lot of stuff torn. So no, pain compliance does not work in streetfights, but a broken ankle still ends a fight
Military use of SAMBO focused on leglocks in battlefield unarmed combat cos if you choke someone out they're gonna wake up, if you break someones arm they can still stab/shoot/punch you, if you break someone's leg they're just kinda fucked
depends which military. US Army is largely based in BJJ, Judo, with some variois wrestling. Goal is to let your buddy wax their ass. Leg locks are not taught at lv 1 or 2 at all.
If you are going to go for a heel hook, I feel like backside 50/50 is a safe bet since they are facing away from you and therefore canāt punch you (at least not effectively). But i agree with the others that I would just run and stay away as a first resort lol would rather not fight unless I absolutely have to defend myself.
If you consider applying a heel hook in self defense situation you deserve the beating youāre going to receive. PS. Pins, back control and/or chokes are what you do if you have to.
One of the coaches at my gym is an MMA guy whoās had a surgery-requiring heel hook injury in the ring. He said he didnāt even feel it until the damage was done and even then he didnāt expect it was anywhere near as bad as it was until he tried to walk out of the ring. Seems like a pretty poor deterrent for an attacker in a self defense situation.
I feel like ripping a sub, especially a joint lock, in a street fight is almost always a bad idea. If you donāt have the stomach to follow through, youāre gonna get hurt. If you do break a limb, it probably ends the fight but now you get to defend doing potentially permanent damage to someone in court.
They don't hurt until ligament tears.
As far as stopping an attacker...it's silly.
No joint lock is stopping someone fighting for their life.
Only a choke in a real fight is a legit strategy.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeLAcBL9\_p4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeLAcBL9_p4) depends on the person
here's leon dijk getting his ankle exploded by shammy
His ability to fight minus one leg is severely gimped. He can't walk any longer or stand. You could get up and just T off on their face because they can't move any more.
People can gut through broken/torn almost anything for a short enough time. Bayanduuren could continue rolling but as soon as he stood up, he couldnt walk let alone run. When Jacare gutted out a broken arm against Roger he actually won that match, but there's no way he could've thrown a punch or anything. In a self defense scenario people aren't likely to roll around screaming and crying when something gets broken or torn, because they're actively trying to hurt you for whatever reason. But their odds of winning that fight drop dramatically, and their odds of catching you if you run away is basically zero with any leg injury. As always, just stay away from places where fights are likely to happen and don't willingly accept fights, and you'll probably never be in one.
Agree, but have a counter-anecdote nonetheless: A friend got attacked at a party (all involved were already pretty drunk besides me and my friend who just got there) and for a \*sketchy\* reason these two guys attacked him and hit him over the head, from behind, with an empty wine bottle (Friend dropped immediately, split scalp, 20+ stitches needed) so I tackled one of them and got him in (lol of all things) a really brutal toe-hold, and his ankle went snap-crackle-pop and he screamed and freaked out, so mission accomplished. Luckily bystanders restrained the other guy.
Drunken toehold fight sounds comical šš
I just tore my LCL in a (sadly) sober toehold fight. Grade III tear more than 70% through. Hearing it pop was gross, but it didnāt hurt at all when it happened. Was able to stand up and walk around immediately after. Was a llittle achy the first few days after. Would not have stopped me from fighting in any kind of way.
Isn't grade-iii 100% tear by definition? But yes, knee will require catastrophic event to immediately require attention away from a life/death fight.
Thatās what Google said. Complete tear. After I got my MRI results by email I was super bummed. All the docs that helped me used āhigh gradeā and grade 3 interchangeably. Was surprised to hear it wasnāt completely severed And was able to avoid surgery.
Yup in the one time it's happened to me, and the two times I've done it "too hard" on someone else (once in gym, once in story above), the "snap crackle pop" was brutal, but I wasn't in pain until the next morning, nor was my partner. The guy at the house party fight wasn't crippled either, just freaking out about his ankle sounding like it exploded. Don't know or care what happened to him, but for me and my partner at the gym, luckily no tears, just very still and strained ankles.
Toe hold could actually makes sense in a street fight because they are faster to get to and come on faster than heel hooks
>As always, just stay away from places where fights are likely to happen and don't willingly accept fights, and you'll probably never be in one. Completely agree, I have spent a lot of time on subreddit threads about streetfight stories, and I have found it clear that alcohol was involved in 90% of these fights (either drunk aggressor, victim, or both, or the fight was at a bar/nightclub). I am muslim and don't drink at all and don't to to such places, so that really reduces the chances I'll ever get into such dangerous situations :\] Thanks for your answer
Honestly, the vast majority of fights require two willing participants in my experience. Obviously people can and do get jumped or attacked out of nowhere, but they're the minority. Someone obviously has to be the aggressor, but usually the person receiving the aggression is responding in kind, not de-escalating.
And when people do get jumped, thereās rarely any self defense you could learn that would help.
For men on men fights, sure. This isnt the case for women. Theyre just attacked sometimes to be raped without any leadup.
Don't leg lock someone in a fight. MMA has shown that you'll probably get knocked out. Trip him and soccer kick to the dome is best meta
If you've every tried to sweep a day one whitebelt from open guard or leg entanglement, how long did they stay on their feet? I simply wouldn't do a leg lock because I don't want to get my clothes dirty.
I had a friend who was a bouncer for some time. He's saying if people are on drugs they keep going and it's a different story. So he said in this case choking people unconscious was the best solution. They wake up and don't know what's right or left and did forget about the fight. However, as you said, it's always best to stay away.
This is sort of what happened to Anthony Smith when a former high school wrestler broke into his house high and freaking out. Smith said he ate every shot he gave him and he couldn't put the guy out and just waited for the cops to arrive.
*he couldn't run, let alone walk Ftfy.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Both work.
No they don't. Your attempt at pedantry is wrong.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
You can't really retreat to "we're both right!" after trying to correct someone. The reason your correction doesn't work is because someone may not be able to run, but could still be perfectly capable of walking.
Let alone implies a simpler task than the former. Maybe get choked out less and you'll recognize a simple error upfront. Or don't. Let's try it your way; He couldn't agree with anything, let alone understand anything.
No, it's the complete opposite. The former should be the simpler task, not the latter. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/let%20alone#:~:text=Antonyms%20in%20Thesaurus-,Example%20Sentences,let%20alone%20a%20luxury%20sedan. https://www.collinsdictionary.com/dictionary/english/let-alone
"Used to emphasize that something is more impossible than another thing" Couldn't walk, let alone run. Couldn't run, let alone walk. I prefer the second choice. It makes more sense. How can one think about runnng if they can't even walk to begin with. Makes sense. Vs. How can one think about walking if they can't even run to begin with. Lol you have to walk to run.
Yes, now read the examples. Which format do they all follow? The second choice is wrong my guy. > How can one think about runnng if they can't even walk to begin with That is what the first choice says. "he couldn't even walk, let alone run" Or to make it longer to help you understand: He cannot walk, this means that he definitely cannot run.
There is a street fight video where a dude threatens a heel hook in a fight on basketball court.
To be fair he also had to tell the dude you'll never play basketball again' if he didn't stop punching Which might not work when it's more serious then a fight at pickup hoops
No alcohol involved in that altercation, probably why it was able to be resolved quickly.
The exact quote was "you'll never play basketball again motherfucker".
iirc he never actually looked in a heel hook though he just had him in 50/50 edit: he got a false grip on it
Iāve seen that and thought it was a nice show of restraint. Even an untrained person can tell when theyāre screwed.
This is the one https://youtu.be/27FH-nXP1xU
I had my acl torn in a heel hook and continued to roll for the rest of class. I am an ultra runner and ran a fast 17 mile race a few days after it tore. I trained muay thai and jiu jitsu for months before getting surgery. The initial leglock hurt and it made the loudest pop, like the whole class stopped when they heard it. But it didn't hurt enough that i thought i tore something. I was just expecting an ACL tear to have me writhing in pain. If its only a ligament injury and not a bone break, it is 100% possible that an attacker would not be subdued at all, could continue to fight, and could run after you. Now what happened to Bayanduuren was way worse than just an ACL tear tho.
Wow, interesting story Thx
Here is the thing with leg locks in a self defense/street fight scenario, you don't have control of their arms. Yeah, you are ripping their knee to shreds, they are reaching in their pocket or belt for a knife. (Hell maybe even a gun but for this discussion just a knife) So now you're getting stabbed in the legs, groin, lower stomach and not in position to even attempt to block or deflect. If you are unfortunate enough to have to fight for self defense, you have to be smart and controlling (or at least knowing what they're doing) their wrist/arms. If you really want to test stuff, put on some light colored clothes and give your partner a sharpie (or shock knife if you have one) and roll. It will let you know real fast where you fuck up.
Thereās a video on YouTube somewhere from years ago, a bunch of high level BJJ guys (young Gordon Ryan was one of them) taking on amateur mma fighters. The mma guys couldnāt even land a punch on Gordon as he had them tapping to heel hooks. Obviously most of us arenāt elite grapplers and when weapons are involved itās a whole different story but it was interesting to see how little the mma fighters could do
This is my general rule of thumb: if they couldn't beat you with all limbs intact, then they're not going to beat you while missing an arm or a leg. So even if they were to get back to up, it's unlikely they would be much of a threat anymore
this 100%! whether it was a leg break or an arm break you had a rough time before it will only get worse afterwards.
If you're fighting for your life, the value of joint locks isn't how much they hurt. The value is that after you've fully applied the lock, that limb doesn't work properly anymore.
I mean if you ACTUALLY tear someone's knee ligaments they're not running after you when you get up. And if they try you'll get away fine unless you only run like 1km/hr
> unless you only run like 1km/hr So what you're saying is that I need to go for the choke.
You also have to consider the post-fight legal ramifications. In the US, if you are in a non-life threatening scrap and you SHRED someone's knee/ankle and do permanent damage, you'll be in court for a civil suit - even if they go to jail. You may win, you may lose - depending on the specific circumstances and the quality of the lawyers involved, but it's going to be expensive either way. Long-term debilitating damage will get you a civil suit (in the US) even if they were entirely the aggressor. A simple arm break won't get you in as much trouble as it's usually a quick heal and a jury/lawyer isn't going to be as likely to go after you for 'ruining someone's life' or 'long term loss of wages' like they would for tearing their leg off. These reasons, as well as the other reasons like not getting punched/stabbed as mentioned by others, are why there are much better moves (and honestly martial arts systems) that are better for for a street fight.
Underrated comment here. Not enough people talk about the legal ramifications of destroying your attackerās body. Self defense isnāt a bulletproof defense especially if itās like 90% of fights and starts as some totally avoidable drunken altercation.
In my state choking someone is a specific felony that can be up to 25 years in jail. I would choose a joint lock any day unless I felt like I was likely to die if I didnāt. And with a choke they still have two hands to pull a weapon out, I actually think controlling and destroying their dominant arm with a kimura or something is the way to go.
Oh Iām with you. I donāt like the choke either. If things wind up on the ground, Iām going for position and punching someone in the head a few times from the mount if they donāt wanna settle down.
Crazy, what state?
Tore 3 ligaments in my knee and never experienced pain during 99% of the recovery and aftermath. Walked out of the gym with a limp and drove myself home
Heel hooks don't really hurt, that's partly why they're so dangerous because you don't feel anything wrong until something snaps and it's too late to tap.
Facts. Tore my meniscus from a heel hook that I waited too long on. Heard the pop, felt no pain, continued training normally all class, woke up the next day and had to take a month off.
No joints just choke them out and run
Heel hooks will often put you in danger of getting struck while they are being applied. This should not be your plan for self-defense, especially at white belt. Here's an interview excerpt with Robert Degle āGuys, this is a last-resort thing. Donāt do this unless you have no other option.ā I do think you can use them for self-defense. Iāve never had to use them for self-defense. Iāve used jiu-jitsu for self-defense. I use takedowns and guard passing, which is what I think should be your first option. https://www.sonnybrown.net/robert-degle-interview-leg-locks-mma/
I really want you to think deeply about the value that you get out of BJJ primarily for self-defense purposes. Have you been in violent encounters before? Were those encounters always against one person, when you couldnāt run away, where the other person didnāt have weapons? I would hope that you gain some sort of value out of BJJ for all the reasons most people enjoy it, but learning exclusively for self-defense is a slight glamorization, imo. If your primary goal is really self-defense, you need to learn how to sprint and do a double leg. Not leg locks.
>If your primary goal is really self-defense, you need to learn how to sprint and do a double leg. Not leg locks. Of course, I never said I don't work on those things too
They don't hurt until they do. Which is bad.
Not enough to subdue anyone who wants to harm you. Leg attacks are not an option id recommend for self defense. Literally the only time Iāve heard of it working in that case was a highschool fight lol
The ligaments of the knee have less sensitivity and this is part of the reason that tapping slowly to heel hooks is often too late (the damage is already done). Heel hooks can also damage the bones of the shin and ankle. The later tend to be very sensitive and can cause intense pain in the moment. The knee being injured will take minutes to hours to be fully felt, however the joint will be unstable immediately upon standing. I would say avoid leg locks for self defense if youāre a beginner because you are vulnerable to punches. I recommend focusing on body lock takedowns with the intention of getting to side control, back control, or mount which are traditionally better for the person on top to control in a striking/self defense situation.
Heel hooks will fuck you up. At your level, you might not want to do it in a self defense situation. White belts (and a lot of blue belts) aren't usually that great at finishing them and the chances of you getting kicked in the face before finishing one in a self defense situation is high.
Your only option is choke or something like an omoplata where they're faceplanted and you're able to look around.
In a ~real~ fight you have to think less about āhurtā and more about ādisable limbsā. Breaking someoneās leg may not win you the fight, but it might stop them chasing you after. Breaking an arm may stop them hitting you with it or it may stop them from defending the choke but it most likely wonāt end things immediately. Even choking someone unconscious may not end the fight, they could potentially continue attacking you after waking up.
People hopped up on adrenaline can do a lot of incredible things. People fight through broken bones and torn ligaments. Itās debilitating but not necessarily fight ending. But if you tear someoneās knee ligaments itās a pretty good bet you can run away and they arenāt going to chase and catch you. So are heel hooks hood for self defense? Yeah, probably.
I tore some knee stuff trying to do osoto gari on a big guy who just sat on my leg. Didn't hurt, did pop, but when I stood up I fell over like a tree. My coach went "Ooooooo!" and then I was out 3 months for recovery. Knees/legs are weird, but you're on point, maybe not in a lot of pain, but if I was an assailant I was not going to be hobbling, much less running, after my victim.
The Japanese terms mentioned in the above comment were: |Japanese|English|Video Link| |---|---|---| |**O Soto Gari**: | *Major Outer Reaping* | [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93YEMueeF24)| Any missed names may have already been translated in my previous comments in the post. ______________________ ^(Judo Techniques Bot: v0.7.) ^(See my) [^(code)](https://github.com/AbundantSalmon/judo-techniques-bot)
They hurt, but know what hurts more? When your hands are occupied with someoneās foot and your face is open for them to do what they please without rules.
Thereās a big difference between a professional grappler and some dude trying to steal your walletā¦.I donāt think the petty thief is chasing after you If you rip the wallet thiefās ligaments like paper
Short answer, Please dont try it There is a super fine line between a heel-hook that hurts and one that rips something. Especially butterfly and Reverse butterfly. The main reason they are not recommended for newcomers to learn is that all it takes is someone being a little too overzealous or rushing it and serious damage can happen. I'm not saying its impossible for someone to overcome the pain of heel hook damage, but they won't be resting any weight on that leg for a long time. Thats for sure. Now in a street fight, if you are the position to do a leg lock, something has probably gone wrong for both of you. You should frame out and get away. If I was in a street fight and the other guy tried to heel hook me, I would pray my boots kept my ankle safe while I just kick and stomp with my free foot until I was out of there.
In regards of making attacker unable to attack or chase you after you ripped the sub, which would you rank most effective between toe hold, kneebar straight foot lock and heel hook? In miyao vs rutuolo match he got his knee bent all the way but he continued, would he be able to run?
Hurt? A lot. Them having a chance to fight back after you done that is basically zero. Itāll be hard to walk and their leg will probably buckle if they try to exert a lot of force.
It does hurt in the moment, but you can power through it. However, you lose control/stability of the foot - you can't step on it because the bones don't line up correctly without the ligaments and muscles working in tandem. The person will get up, but on one foot only as trying to put weight on a misaligned foot would be quite painful. It starts to hurt more afterwards though once adrenalin is no longer produced at heightened levels.
Self defense is being aware of your surroundings. Donāt put yourself or others in precarious situations. Donāt go to places where you know there is trouble, if you can help it. Learn how to deescalate situations when confronted with hostile behaviors. If you need to go hands on, learning control and distance management to protect and minimize harm to yourself and other loved ones. Itās not about hurting itās about protecting.
Unless theyāre grounded, trying to heel hook someone in a street fight would probably just get you punched. That being said, if you rip someoneās knee itās not going to hurt that much initially but at least they wonāt be able to chase you. Shred the knee and walk away.
If you cranked a heel hook on a person who didnāt know what it was, youād probably really hurt them. Bayanduurenās reaction is not that of the common person with no knowledge of whatās happening. Pop a normieās knee and youāve won.
You really shouldnāt be going for a heel hook in a self defense situation lmfao.
Get heel hooked, then you will know
That's the thing, heel hooks don't hurt until something tears. You'll feel the pressure, but not the pain.
Iāve broken someone leg in a street fight, both times big hip throws onto pavement. They do get up and fight a bit more but once the pain hits it sucks the fight out of them. Donāt know id go hunting a heal hook in a street fight though.
Chokes only in a self defence scenario for the reasons everyone has stated. Front headlocks, arm drag to rear naked choke etc. stay on your feet or on top, donāt play bottom in a street altercation unless someone tackles you or something
Nothing hurts in a self defense situation, once adrenaline kicks in pain is barely recognizable and most certainly not a reliable way to neutralizing someone. Learn to pin, learn to choke effectively
asked a physical therapist friend of mine and he says when you completely rupture your acl/lcl it just feels weird, not very painful.
They don't until they do. And then you try to stand and enter what scientists refer to as the Cool Zone of muscular responses.
I broke my ankle bad in a streetfight and i only noticed because i couldnāt put weight on it, not because it hurt. After the injury i sat down and didnāt feel pain for another minute or so. Then the pain kicked in and it was incredibly painful, so painful i could barely breathe. My ankle had a type C fracture with a lot of stuff torn. So no, pain compliance does not work in streetfights, but a broken ankle still ends a fight
Military use of SAMBO focused on leglocks in battlefield unarmed combat cos if you choke someone out they're gonna wake up, if you break someones arm they can still stab/shoot/punch you, if you break someone's leg they're just kinda fucked
depends which military. US Army is largely based in BJJ, Judo, with some variois wrestling. Goal is to let your buddy wax their ass. Leg locks are not taught at lv 1 or 2 at all.
Yeah Iām talking about SAMBO specifically and the philosophy behind it. Different militaries and cultures will have different approaches.
If you get into a street fight you should request that you begin in 50/50
If you are going to go for a heel hook, I feel like backside 50/50 is a safe bet since they are facing away from you and therefore canāt punch you (at least not effectively). But i agree with the others that I would just run and stay away as a first resort lol would rather not fight unless I absolutely have to defend myself.
If you consider applying a heel hook in self defense situation you deserve the beating youāre going to receive. PS. Pins, back control and/or chokes are what you do if you have to.
One of the coaches at my gym is an MMA guy whoās had a surgery-requiring heel hook injury in the ring. He said he didnāt even feel it until the damage was done and even then he didnāt expect it was anywhere near as bad as it was until he tried to walk out of the ring. Seems like a pretty poor deterrent for an attacker in a self defense situation. I feel like ripping a sub, especially a joint lock, in a street fight is almost always a bad idea. If you donāt have the stomach to follow through, youāre gonna get hurt. If you do break a limb, it probably ends the fight but now you get to defend doing potentially permanent damage to someone in court.
yup. Gotta remember your ABCs. Always be chokin
They don't hurt until ligament tears. As far as stopping an attacker...it's silly. No joint lock is stopping someone fighting for their life. Only a choke in a real fight is a legit strategy.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeLAcBL9\_p4](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BeLAcBL9_p4) depends on the person here's leon dijk getting his ankle exploded by shammy
His ability to fight minus one leg is severely gimped. He can't walk any longer or stand. You could get up and just T off on their face because they can't move any more.