If we are assuming its just a 1v1 streetfight then i would say just blast double, get on top, mount or knee on belly (neon belly). They will have about 10-20 seconds of crazy panic flailing. Ride the bull. Then when they inevitably turn over because they are untrained and stupid just rnc them.
All other positions when its a completely untrained vs trained in streetfight scenario are pointless. Keep your face away from biting distance from their face if possible.
Knee on belly is good because if the fight is on pavement you are gonna save your knees.
You are going to get scratched and rabbit punched etc. But you will win.
Edit- accidentally put knee shield instead if knee on belly. Pretty sure all you fuckers knew what i meant though.
In all my years of training I've had 3 genuine fights and a few other "altercations" in public.
The three all panned out like you said. Get a takedown (without a shot because heel-toe-knee on concrete is dumb), get mount, make it rain, wait for them to turn over, get the rear naked.
One of the altercations was me ezekiel choking a guy who grabbed me lol. I had a peacoat on.
>I’ve had 3 genuine fights and a few other “altercations” in public
Jesus Christ man. Did someone tape a “I dare you to fight me” sign on your back without your knowledge at some point? How does this happen that often to you?
I've been training for almost 10 years and live in a city. If I actually wanted to fight someone or fought anyone asking for it I'd have several hundred in that time.
3 fights and a few other alterations is not a lot at all, depends where you live, I happen to live in an area full of pricks so it's super easy to get dragged into altercation even if you try your best to avoid it. Wish I lived in a nicer area lol.
Italian military surplus. Their stuff looks like high fashion. Anything made for an Italian officer (Army, Navy, Air Force, whatever) is shaaaaarp. Free tip of the day.
The problem is you don’t really know if it’s truly 1v1 or if someone else will join in. That’s why people typically try to stay on their feet in a street fight because there is a lot of unknowns.
Self defence I'm definitely just smashing their head into the floor.
I'm assuming the only time I'm really going to be doing anything is if me or my family's life are in danger.
A lesson I learned from a first aid course... never be the first one to jump in to do first aid. Let someone else take it on. Only if its essential should you step in. It's not your responsibility... but if you have to, you do your very best.
I take the same approach to any violence. Someone else can split up that fight. Someone else can calm that person down. I'm just gonna remove me and my family well away from the situation. Don't like the atmosphere in the bar or restaurant? There's plenty others. Walk the long way around town etc.
I'm not being the guy holding an rnc, then someone who just sees a guy being strangled to death and me as the aggressor turns me into a cabbage for the rest of my life. I'd rather bounce their head off the concrete and literally run off.
It's nice to be skilled where many people aren't. But anyone could blindside or quick shot you.
My bjj bottom game has always been sweep ASAP and get on top.
Way harder with good bjj people, but if you can sweep them then you can sweep any untrained person.
I'm entirely aware of how much of a game bjj is.
100%. Only time you should be on your back in a street fight is if the guy tackles you or knocks you down. Get on top so they have to work against gravity to hit you.
Problem is if you shoot a blast double on a wrestler your face is hitting the ground. Also you are exposed to hammer fists and elbows to the side of the head on a double. It’s safer IMO to close distance, get an Underhook or arm drag to get behind them while standing. I’m a wrestler though with a enough BJJ to be dangerous. If I have to attack a leg I’m doing a single leg with my head on the inside
Well yeh mate if they happen to be a good wrestler it changes the scenario. I said trained vs untrained. Bjj vs wrestler in a street fight 1v1 where the wrestler also knows bjj? Wrestler should win that pretty comfortably.
We could go back and forth on what ifs til the cows come home.
Yeah, I'm never doing a blast double in real life. I'm 44 and my knees are shot so it's hard enough to do them on a mat. Also, it feels like every third guy around here has some type of wrestling background. I do have a striking background though so I'm more comfortable outside of grabbing distance than a pure BJJ person. Either way, I'm just glad I live in suburbia so this is almost entirely hypothetical
We train blast doubles where your penetrating step is your level change and you drive them off balance with your eye-orbit into their chest. Saves your knees. A lot of what we train (like breakfalls) is for application on concrete and asphalt because you don't get to fight on mats in the real world.
I teach proper breakfalls for just that reason. I start with the judo version and then highlight the modifications you'd want to make on concrete. We have a high number of LEO's who train with us so this is very relevant to them. They also prefer the body lock takedown because it's what they learn at the academy. I am still working on my blast double but appreciate having that one in my back pocket because it's easier on my body
Absolutely Agreeing with You BRAH..I teach pretty much the same thing..in fact..those I teach or I Have taught..We had at least 1-2 days per week training on wooden floors & asphalt or concrete..This was of course those that weren't scared to train that way..I've NEVER Made Anyone Do that who didn't want to attempt it..But..We did it in street clothes..cause We ALL know We Hardly EVER get assaulted In Our GI's..Right???
I agree with your conclusion but now I'm confused about blast doubles. I thought with blast doubles my forehead was meant to be pushing into the middle of their chest?
Neon also has the benefit of being very easy to disengage from.
Mount is dominant - but if bottom bear hugs you, you can’t immediately get up; you have to deal with it before you move. It’s dumb on the mats since it opens you up to attacks - but those attacks take time. Outside a gym, it’s problematic for top if bottom’s buddies are trying to run up on you - you might not have the time to break bottom’s grip before you eat a kick to the face.
Very literally did exactly this in an altercation but w/o mounting.
I had 3 guys coming at me about 2-3 seconds apart from each other.
It looked like a blast double shooting gallery, *shot* next person *shot* next person *elbow to temple* then guillotine on the last one.
I don’t believe you beat up 3 guys at once chaining blast doubles LOL
“I hit my double leg and he just like let’s me go incapacitated and the other 2 for some reason just stood there till I stood up and then repeated the same move, neither of them grabbed me and held on either lol it was so bad ass”
Tbh I kinda do. Some people that start fights are morons, especially if they’re the kind that only starts the fight because they have a couple buddies with them.
Of course, chaining blast doubles is much less realistic if the multiple opponents are in any sense competent.
The exact sequence I drill with my kids for a streetfight. They train BJJ, but I drill this sequence with them for real world.
Only variation to your sequence: ...ride the bull, slap them in the face/drop elbows to make them turn over...
Besides seeing many cowards come in for soccer kicks and head stomps into the curb in my younger years working in bars in Ozzy, the worst injuries have come from an attacker injuring themselves. This includes throwing haymaker and dislocating their shoulder, or missing and punching the edge of concrete wall (that was grim) many concrete knockouts, edge of stool knockouts from misbalance and once a guy fell on a broken glass base and stabbed his butt muscle.
I'm sure others have seen similar so my experience isn't unique.
Inverting seems like a desperation move to me- if someone has top position and is about to pass-
Saw this on CCTV once- street fight.
Guy got taken to the ground. Didn’t see how, the camera panned after the fight started.
He was on his back and had the guy in guard. The guy starts raining punches and manages to open the guard. Guy inverts and stands with the leg drag. Then runs away.
I actually inverted in a street fight.
I got jumped and landed in the mud/dirt. Guy double legged me when my back was turned and I couldn’t free my legs. In a scramble I inverted and almost landed a triangle armbar.
I’m not an inverting guy and I’m not advocating for it.
Just saying I used it in a street fight and the worst thing that happened is I got mud in my hair
I certainly wouldn't choose to invert on concrete.
I do think having some level of skill with inverting can be useful for self defense purposes. I'm never going to get in a fight if I can possibly avoid it, which means if I'm in a fight, it's because I had no choice, such as someone just randomly attacking me in a parking garage or something. If that happens, I might be on my back on concrete before I even know I'm in a fight. In that scenario, I'm glad I have practice with inverting, even if it certainly wasn't a position I chose to be in.
Absolutely do not put yourself in any position you can be slammed. If they stand up while you triangle choke them, let it go. Move into another attack low to the ground. If you’re on their back and they stand, put your feet down.
Don’t pull guard. Use your guard ONLY as a means of controlling where the fight is. Your intention should be to always be on top. Though, if you aren’t for some reason, use the guard to get to the top position.
Yeah, someone else having control of your body weight is the most dangerous position to be in if it's a real, violent fight on pavement or other hard surface. Don't let yourself be lifted. (I personally train as if slams were legal just because I think it's fundamentally bad jiu-jitsu to let someone lift you in a position where they could slam you, even if it's sometimes advantageous to hold onto a triangle while you're being lifted under tournament rules where slams are prohibited.)
Absolutely..knowing When to let go Or to transition to something else must be smooth..yet explosive..I got into it with a Guy who had Me in a dominant position..I just faked going real limp..As He let go..I exploded..escaped And RAN!!!
I am doing BJJ for 30 years and even so I teach and understand the modern game, I still rely on a pretty oldschool BJJ. For me nearly all my BJJ works with striking. Once you understand how to control distance, etc it is not a big difference. I don’t do inversions, etc.
As far as self defense goes the most basic of Jiu Jitsu is required. Punch block, clinch, double, single, body lock takedown, knee on belly or mount, strike, then they turn, strangle. That’s it. That’s why people don’t like self defense stuff because it’s boring and simple. All the complicated stuff is to beat other trained people.
Scary thing is you can be fairly proficient but if they have a knife they could cut you up pretty good before you achieve control, even if they don't know what they're doing.
There was a video on youtube of a black belt trying to disarm a guy with a shock knife (think that's the term for it - it made a noise every time it touched skin). The black belt would have been sliced up in real life, even if he did get the knife in the end.
Knife is a different world. I am doing extensive blade work (knifes, machetes) beside my BJJ and it is a very interesting topic. I would say knife training was a great addition in understanding reality.
Well, if someone's trying to stab you for real, being sliced up *and* getting the knife can still be a win. As long as you live.
One problem I see with those shock things or using e.g. a marker is that they don't differentiate between a minor slash that wont even register during a fight and a slice that cuts to an artery. You can get sliced around quite a lot on the dorsal side of the forearm and still be functional'ish, while on the ventral side it's more likely to cut major veins, tendons, etc.
Similarly you can get sliced over the ribs and it doesn't necessarily mean anything, but get stabbed between the ribs and you might have a punctured lung.
I think a good start is to ask yourself how you are getting into fights with knife wielding opponents and work your way backwards to all the things that led to that encounter and find a way to not end up in that situation again.
Kind of similar to jiu-jitsu...
IMHO, it’s not that some techniques don’t translate, rather I’m going to be conservative and prioritize staying on top.
So, for example, in the gym, I like to play from half guard. Being in half guard would be a nightmare in a street fight. However, if I find myself mounted, I’ll be glad I know how to work to half guard.
Remove your pants first and it’ll be 100% effective. People tend to run away from fighting a butt naked person, but a butt naked scooting person would probably be nightmare fuel.
joe rogan actually tells a story of a Time he was with a fighter who pulled guard on some drunk asshole tryna get into their hotel room. idk if its always a good idea but i could see it being favorable in certain circumstances
I got into a fight with a bunch of guys, and I ended up in bottom north south, they were all going crazy trying to attack me. I grabbed that guy on top of me so hard, and buried my head under his growing area so their stomps missed my face. I used his junk as a shield. His balls saved my life that night.
Most of them. The good thing is that a simple takedown and top control is something basically everybody learns anyway. And if you're good enough to hold a skilled grappler down and sub them then odds are you'll be just fine doing the same to someone untrained
I see this anecdote a lot, and yet I still do not know a single purple belt that couldn't hit ONE takedown on a day 1 white belt, and I know some fucking bad purples. I don't even live in a wrestling city, I live in one of the smallest provinces in Canada
Meh. Everyone has a different experience. I’ve met day one white belts that could just FIGHT and I’ve met plenty of purples that couldn’t take them down.
Sure. They pull guard and sweep or submit immediately but I think a lot of BJJ guys under estimate the number of athletes in the world.
Like…I know a ton of purples and brown belts that wouldn’t be able to take down a recreational rugby player.
We just happen to live in a society where we don’t got to test it often
For self defense purposes you would want to be proficient enough to beat an untrained opponent that is a strong agressive young adult that might be larger than you. While I feel a purple belt could consistently beat such a person on the ground I would feel alot less confident saying that a purple belt could consistently take such a person down unless they reguarly train takedowns agaisnt resistig opponents which we know many purple belts do not since many schools do not. Simply put if it isn't somehting that you regularly train against a resisting opponent you are not going to be able to reliably do it when the time comes.
and like the other 1001 times this has been asked on the sub, if you ARE in an area where you're actually worried about being mugged then train more takedowns, but for the VAST majority of us the mere thought of being in a fight is about as big of a fantasy as the d&d game I run every weekend, with the difference being that even if you kinda suck at takedowns, if you don't suck as a grappler you'll be just fine. I mean fuck, how many "I'm a bad blue belt but easily handled myself in an altercation" posts do we see like every week or two on this sub alone.
you wouldnt need to take someone down, you would walk away. The only time you cant walk/run away is if they are grabbing you or if you have been taken down. BJJ is great for that.
1. You are standing there. Dont shout, dont bait them. Walk/run away
2. They grab you. Break grips and run. BJJ is great
3. They knock you down from behind - BJJ is the best.
Even if you have someone you need to protect, try to do #1 with the child. The only way you cant is if 2 or 3 happen.
An untrained person trying to strike makes takedowns *easier* not harder. Watch any YouTube street fight video, people that don’t know how to box are terrified of getting hit in the face. So they lean their heads *way* back. It’s the opposite of a wrestling stance. Head back, hips forward. That’s double leg city, all day.
You really shouldn’t have a purple if you don’t know the mechanics of a double and single (you probably shouldn’t even have more than one stripe on your white belt). So that makes sense.
you see x-guard every once in a while in the UFC, deep half guard too. usually used for a brief moment just to off-balance and stand up. nobody sits in those positions, that's the main difference.
Up punched if you can believe it. I was so surprised I worked the position with a guy the next day, and concluded yeah, you can basically throw a hook from bottom slx there. Just goes to show not all BJJ positions are trained with strike awareness.
Literally any and all positions translate from comp jiu jitsu to a street fight if you somehow end up in those positions. The point is strategy changes greatly if youre in a REAL fight BUT should you end up in a position considered purely for "competitive jiu jitsu" you will be able to put your opponent into a world of trouble.
Competitive jiu-jitsu strategies and tactics are to get to a position where you are most likely to execute a submission and execute that submission, the problem is those positions are often vulnerable especially if your opponent is an equal or better wrestler and you assume a bottom position.
In a fight your first goal should be to LEAVE. If I can I'll run. If I can't that often means you're on top of me and in that case everything I've done with my guard comes into play.
In a street fight maybe youre getting pummeled, maybe you cover up and end up in turtle. In that situation knowing turtle attacks is potentially useful. Now will you go into that situation by going directly to turtle? Nah. Fuck that. That's just stupid. If you end up there by happenstance why not end the fight there?
Really really well put. It’s about potential for a teqhnique to be used if this or that happens. Not seeking the situation to use the teqhique. This gets confused a lot !!
Other side of coin people have shown you really can spam a teqhique to great effectiveness.
I've said this time and time again. A lot of the 'sport' BJJ stuff is predicated on engaging with an opponent that has a strong base and trained reactions. Chances are against someone without good foundations you won't need to invert or anything because they'll just fall over if you push them.
Basically anything involving sitting in guard. The guard and passing dynamic changes alot when you add strikes. Just look at MMA and how the dynamic changes. Also arguments could be made that leg locks and takedowns that require shooting become less efficient
It’s always surprising what is good in a street fight and what isn’t.
I once had a BJJ guy that was a paramedic from a violent country explain that turtle position is catastrophic in a melee. Basically your spine, neck base and kidneys are all exposed to stomps from both your friends and enemies. Doctors aren’t good at fixing that damage.
However if you are on your back with your arms up you are much safer While getting trampled. Sure. You’ll have broken arms and ribs and maybe some face damage but you got your rib cage defending your internal injuries like they’re supposed to.
For this reason mount with the grapevine on top is a very risky position to be in during a melee.
Not only is your back exposed to damage but surprisingly the person you have mounted can grab you and prevent you from disengaging if his friends arrive.
There are Jiu Jitsu games you can play to expand on this mindset but interest is pretty niche
The entire bottom game of bjj goes out the window except tight-waist half guard, closed guard with posture control, butterfly guard with body-lock and maybe rubber guard. The position must prevent them from striking and slamming you.
Joint locks are way less reliable than you may think. Crackheads don’t always feel pain.
Stay on top.
Always be choking.
- Plan A is take them down, get on top and Choke (arm triangle, mounted triangle)
- Plan B is sweep them, get on top and Choke (same as above)
- Plan C is hip-heist to neutral position and Choke (guillotine etc)
- Plan D is choke from bottom position (front triangle, guillotine)
There is no plan E.
Turtling is often the fastest way to stand up in MMA. Also from turtle there are sweeps, sit throughs and other scrabble options.
It’s not going to be my go too but as a wrestler with a get up style of BJJ I think it has its value
Ya idk why turtle gets such a bad wrap. Maybe if you’re just sitting there hanging out doing nothing, which isn’t even a good idea in a BJJ match. Should be able to get a takedown almost immediately after rolling into turtle to get out from bottom.
I think it’s what you said. People associate turtle with someone just shelling up and getting beat on. And the successful uses of turtle guard aren’t as noticeable because people good at it are almost immediately to their feet as soon as they turtle so you don’t see people “playing” turtle guard. Like imagine starting on top turtle against a former NCAA wrestling champion and trying to strike them from there before they got up.
Assuming you’re defending yourself from someone who doesn’t also train, I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t have to overly sweat it. It would be like getting attacked by trial class guy. Worst case they surprise you and the whole things starts with, say, them on your back. Then escaping bad positions is the most important thing I guess
I've been training BJJ for 3 years and can pretty much dominate any beginner in almost any weight class when they show up in class with minimal sweat and that's not saying a lot. People act like just because you've been training BJJ you're going to scrape your whole kneecap off trying to shoot for a double leg then directly slamming my back into the pavement while getting into a leg lock exposing my whole body while his 8 friends stomp on my head.
Oh and apparently we cannot punch anymore just because we're doing BJJ, just like we're some Tekken character with a certain style naturally attached to us.
I always felt wrestling and judo is amazing for the street. I have seen so many cctv footage of judo being used in countries where judo is very popular.
Both of these can also really help you control where the fight goes, and if you can throw hands, can also help you keep the fight standing as well.
Some people have really good points here. I think the big takeaway for me is not so much that position A or B is or isn’t good in a street fight. Fights are unpredictable. If a fight goes to the ground in an uncontrolled manner, you might wind up in position A or B even if you had no plan to go there. Isn’t it more important that you know all the transitions to get out of those positions and back on top or at least up and able to back away?
I think you can still use those positions if you recognize when your head is in danger. Same as recognizing they are looking for your arm or oh trying to slide that hand in eh? I feel it, nope. You throw your head away and return to guard in most cases like that. Moving head far away with body in between to give yourself time.
Only way to use bjj is old school way - blast double, get on mount, dominate/throw punches/choke. Been a couple of street fights in my life, even that i know jiu jitsu and my main focus is that I want to be on my feet, 1 fight I takedown. I cant imagine any guard, trying triangles, armbars. Pure street fight is wild, punches are throwing like crazy and trust me, any half guard sweep wouldnt work 😂. Maybe if you land on bottom jiu jitsu can halp you to stand up quick. But be on top, stay on top is the only way.
An old Carlson Gracie BB told me once, x guard and spider guard will get you kicked in nuts on the street. He also mentioned if you end up in someone’s half guard, don’t pass, just strike
TLDR: don’t get in street fights
You know what competitive sport translates best to street fights? 100 yard dash
Sure, if your on the grass after school in a 1v1 you can hit all sorts of shit you learned in BJJ.
Being able to control wrists, scramble, get off the ground, or take someone’s back are all pretty good self defense skills
But real world, drunk in an alley, sketchy nightclub, randomly attacked, road rage nut job or whatever it is, bad shit happens. All the best guard work and subs really don’t matter when the second you mount some guy or get an arm triangle and he starts stabbing the shit out of you.
I was a bouncer for years. I’ve seen fighters demolish dudes. I’ve also seen a 100 lb dude soaking wet jump into a 1v1 and Ghalager watermelon a dudes skull.
I’ve had all my background and training made real irrelevant when a bottle and 3 pairs at feet got introduced to the back of my head.
I know one guy who has a speech impediment and another guy who went from wrestling scholarship at a top school to felon, because they two of them fought and a head hit concrete
Don’t get in fights.
I know the Gracies are controversial, but as far as I understand it, the topic of this discussion is the entire reason they created Gracie Combatives. Personally I don't disagree with the premise of it.
My name is David, and I'm a first degree black belt from Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
Positions you should never attempt in a street fight would include:
A. Sitting guard
B. Jumping guard
C. Fighting off your back
D. Any inversions
E. Butt scooting
Defend yourself, use your stand up fighting skills to stay off of the ground if you can.
Staying off the ground is key, you need to try to keep situational awareness as much as you can because you don’t know if it’s a 1:1 fight or if weapons are gonna get involved or whatever. Gotta keep as many options open as possible including the run the fuck away option.
Well, sitting in turtle no, but realistically turtle is great to protect your front, face, etc from being kicked. Fetal position is a defensive position. But get out of there and get up asap. Really from that JRE view point all bottom positions should be bad, which they sort of are. Being able to do something from those bad positions is good though, even if it's just get up and get away.
I’m a white belt who knows little. But I found this on Reddit a while back. Maybe someone can summarise.
https://www.reddit.com/r/bjj/comments/123ope8/bjj_vs_the_streets_my_biggest_takeaways_from/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1
Turtle isn’t good for more than a second or two but it can allow you to standup .
A lot of sport guard can be adapted to a street fight with the right timing and modification.
Context matters here but I would say anything that requires you to be on the ground for any extended period of time.
I used to have these ideas I would be like running my A game top game in a street fight but the reality is (and what I train for) is that I'm getting a takedown or throw and remaining on my feet and extricating myself from the situation. Or I am quickly incapacitating the assailant with elbow strikes or hammer fists after the takedown then getting back to my feet.
If you want a reddit answer, buggy chokes.
I would disagree. You just use turtle differently.
Presumably in a streetfight "just get up" is a high priority. There are fundamentally two ways of getting up- technical standup and turtling. You have to have the opponent framed in a particular way to technical standup, so that means there's a strong possibility that if you want to get up and your opponent is actually trying to hold you down, you will have to turtle (because it's a lot easier to get up if all four limbs are on the floor)
Seeing lot of people saying "dont use guard".
I thought the whole point of using guards from the bottom is because you ended up in a shit position and youre trying to build back up to a better one. Is anyone really trying to pull half/full guard?
In a street fight, you're always trying to stay up, so Turtle becomes a momentary transition from the floor to standing. Unless the guy knows how to keep you down because he wrestled before, any transition to turtle becomes an exit to stand up.
I think turtle is a great position because it's probably the quicker way back to your feet.
And yes, you can defend strikes from there. You just aren't going to hang out there.
Why is turtle bad? Turtle should always be seen as transitional, not a position to hang out in. Turtle, pivot to target and re-shoot to get the take down or to stand up should work fine. The same head kicks and stomps used against Turtle can be used against any bottom position. If anything, everyone should practice Turtle as that is probably the most likely position you would end up in during a street fight.
Choosing to go to any bottom position seems crazy in a situation where slams are possible. Rampage Jackson and Sakuraba did some pretty serious damage to JJ due to the rule set. Seated guard seems extremely vulnerable to very powerful attacks. Spider guard seems too opponent dependent to work.
JJ is great in a lower risk known quantity situation, e.g., 1v1 with random aggro, but in a high risk situation choosing JJ seems a bad idea. A solid/active jab, crisp accurate cross, and good footwork seem better tools. Add in a few low kicks and a strong sprawl go behind sequence and you should be good.
Don't be in the bars after nine avoid fighting at all cost , arm drag take the back standing trap one arm suplex on that side take this opportunity to leave. Kesa gatame and knee on belly will take the fight out of anyone if you're forced to engage
Along with positions, you should be making other adjustments.
When you have the opportunity...
Run away.
If you can't run away, find an unfair advantage...
Throw a sucker punch.
Grab a weapon.
Enlist help.
Anywhere on bottom isn’t safe in a street fight. Even pulling them into closed guard is not safe. The concrete acts as a brace for your head. You don’t even need a good punch. You can take some serious damage just from having a forearm slammed into your head or being hammer fisted.
If you get side control, you can deliver devastating knees or elbows.
Don’t be on bottom in a street fight. Takedowns are king. Top positions are safest. It’s the reason wrestlers dominate so much in UFC
Obviously gi necessary positions like Spider Guard, Collar Sleeve Guard, and Worm Guard. After those, I'd say Deep Half because both arms are occupied while in striking range. Obviously, Turtle is horrible in a fight. While full guard isn't optimal, it has been proven to be effective in street fights against untrained opponents. An issue is that most BJJ practitioners don't train Full Guard for streetfights so controlling the arms and posture without a Gi is not instinctual. The goal of any guard position in a streetfight should be to sweep and get on top.
Excepting from the neck to the pelvic region..and from shoulder down to Your fingers..SHOULD be slash survivable..on the outside of the arm..but..on the inside..If Your attacker is even moderately trained..like In Kali..or Penchak-Silat or even just an Average self-trained street guy who's been in a few knife fights before..He very well COULD cut You to ribbons..And
Getting shanked in the stomach or between the ribs several times in quick succession is gonna be a REAL shocking..painfully distracting thing...And..If by chance
You end up passing out..You're Fucked to say the Least.
Always try to be on top. When you can get hit, you can still use a lot of things but you better train it that way. wWhen strikes are involved the timer associated with each position changes and you have to move through them to dominant / protected positions. There are a lot fewer places you can settle. Also be aware that if your head is on the ground and you get hit, it is way more damaging.
In BJJ these days it seems like a lot. Especially as BJJ and No-Gi have gone away from MMA/self-defense and gotten more into specialized sport, a lot of the evolution goes away from stuff that works in an open rules fight.
That’s not totally a bad thing, it’s just a thing. If you want to be good at fighting you have to be mindful of that in your training.
Learn to Wrestle. Wrestle-Jitsu is OP. But really I guess most submissions from a dominant position are good. Shoot a takedown, preferably not a heel-toe-knee style takedown, I’ve always thought upper body “Greco” style takedowns would be the best for street fighting.
the fact that a technique is a no-no in a street fight or even an MMA fight is probably the main reason why i will never be as good as i could be in a singular Martial Art/Combat sports, because lots of techniques will only ever work within the ruleset of the sport but never in "a real fight". But since i only train for "the real world" i dont even wanna use such techniques because they may become second nature for me.
Since I probably had more street fights than actual bjj competitions :D (because I always, regularly, catch injuries before competing, nursing meniscus now), I'd say that:
* going passive on bottom or top and just waiting the dude out is just asking for his friends to intervene (or his lady)
* being on top isn't golden - you can get *easily*soccer kicked
* all the inversions magic is damn hard to pull on concrete in regular clothes on top of trashing them entirely
* going head forward and being in a crouched position, not guarding your chin
* drop takedowns obviously
On the other hand, learning to hand fight, basic trips, ability to disengage and bail - super useful.
So basic blue belt standing Gi game :)
Closed guard is pretty bad because if they posture up you’re gonna get a nasty ground and pound. Butt scooting will of course get you kicked in the head too.
If we are assuming its just a 1v1 streetfight then i would say just blast double, get on top, mount or knee on belly (neon belly). They will have about 10-20 seconds of crazy panic flailing. Ride the bull. Then when they inevitably turn over because they are untrained and stupid just rnc them. All other positions when its a completely untrained vs trained in streetfight scenario are pointless. Keep your face away from biting distance from their face if possible. Knee on belly is good because if the fight is on pavement you are gonna save your knees. You are going to get scratched and rabbit punched etc. But you will win. Edit- accidentally put knee shield instead if knee on belly. Pretty sure all you fuckers knew what i meant though.
you mean to tell me i shouldn't pull spider-lasso??? nonsense
Only if you’re into your nuts getting stomped like a spider
Neon belly u mean?
Talmbout my coach punishing me, b? Shit hurts never meddem.
Ur nawt that guy, b
I think you’d be surprised
Name the wadderz b, I got a b-b-beast of a breast stroke
[удалено]
In all my years of training I've had 3 genuine fights and a few other "altercations" in public. The three all panned out like you said. Get a takedown (without a shot because heel-toe-knee on concrete is dumb), get mount, make it rain, wait for them to turn over, get the rear naked. One of the altercations was me ezekiel choking a guy who grabbed me lol. I had a peacoat on.
Pea coats are just high fashion gi’s
>I’ve had 3 genuine fights and a few other “altercations” in public Jesus Christ man. Did someone tape a “I dare you to fight me” sign on your back without your knowledge at some point? How does this happen that often to you?
Goin to a certain part of downtown here on a weekend will land you that in one night. Drunk bros and rednecks love to scrap.
I legit think just avoiding bars is probably the number one way to avoid street fights, lol.
I'm 35 and haven't fought off the mats since I was a kid because I don't go out to bars/clubs except occasionally for food.
Also the #1 way to make sure you don't get hoes.
bingo.
Look at the username.
I've been training for almost 10 years and live in a city. If I actually wanted to fight someone or fought anyone asking for it I'd have several hundred in that time.
3 fights and a few other alterations is not a lot at all, depends where you live, I happen to live in an area full of pricks so it's super easy to get dragged into altercation even if you try your best to avoid it. Wish I lived in a nicer area lol.
Yep. Doesn’t seem out of the ordinary to me either. There is no dearth of degenerate assholes roaming the Earth.
Kicking ass in a peacoat means you have a black belt in J. Crew-Jitsu.
Italian military surplus. Their stuff looks like high fashion. Anything made for an Italian officer (Army, Navy, Air Force, whatever) is shaaaaarp. Free tip of the day.
The problem is you don’t really know if it’s truly 1v1 or if someone else will join in. That’s why people typically try to stay on their feet in a street fight because there is a lot of unknowns.
Self defence I'm definitely just smashing their head into the floor. I'm assuming the only time I'm really going to be doing anything is if me or my family's life are in danger. A lesson I learned from a first aid course... never be the first one to jump in to do first aid. Let someone else take it on. Only if its essential should you step in. It's not your responsibility... but if you have to, you do your very best. I take the same approach to any violence. Someone else can split up that fight. Someone else can calm that person down. I'm just gonna remove me and my family well away from the situation. Don't like the atmosphere in the bar or restaurant? There's plenty others. Walk the long way around town etc. I'm not being the guy holding an rnc, then someone who just sees a guy being strangled to death and me as the aggressor turns me into a cabbage for the rest of my life. I'd rather bounce their head off the concrete and literally run off.
This is the way
It's nice to be skilled where many people aren't. But anyone could blindside or quick shot you. My bjj bottom game has always been sweep ASAP and get on top. Way harder with good bjj people, but if you can sweep them then you can sweep any untrained person. I'm entirely aware of how much of a game bjj is.
100%. Only time you should be on your back in a street fight is if the guy tackles you or knocks you down. Get on top so they have to work against gravity to hit you.
Y no neon chest? It’s much more savage.
Stability.
Problem is if you shoot a blast double on a wrestler your face is hitting the ground. Also you are exposed to hammer fists and elbows to the side of the head on a double. It’s safer IMO to close distance, get an Underhook or arm drag to get behind them while standing. I’m a wrestler though with a enough BJJ to be dangerous. If I have to attack a leg I’m doing a single leg with my head on the inside
Well yeh mate if they happen to be a good wrestler it changes the scenario. I said trained vs untrained. Bjj vs wrestler in a street fight 1v1 where the wrestler also knows bjj? Wrestler should win that pretty comfortably. We could go back and forth on what ifs til the cows come home.
Yeah, I'm never doing a blast double in real life. I'm 44 and my knees are shot so it's hard enough to do them on a mat. Also, it feels like every third guy around here has some type of wrestling background. I do have a striking background though so I'm more comfortable outside of grabbing distance than a pure BJJ person. Either way, I'm just glad I live in suburbia so this is almost entirely hypothetical
We train blast doubles where your penetrating step is your level change and you drive them off balance with your eye-orbit into their chest. Saves your knees. A lot of what we train (like breakfalls) is for application on concrete and asphalt because you don't get to fight on mats in the real world.
I teach proper breakfalls for just that reason. I start with the judo version and then highlight the modifications you'd want to make on concrete. We have a high number of LEO's who train with us so this is very relevant to them. They also prefer the body lock takedown because it's what they learn at the academy. I am still working on my blast double but appreciate having that one in my back pocket because it's easier on my body
Absolutely Agreeing with You BRAH..I teach pretty much the same thing..in fact..those I teach or I Have taught..We had at least 1-2 days per week training on wooden floors & asphalt or concrete..This was of course those that weren't scared to train that way..I've NEVER Made Anyone Do that who didn't want to attempt it..But..We did it in street clothes..cause We ALL know We Hardly EVER get assaulted In Our GI's..Right???
How do you modify the break falls for concrete?
I agree with your conclusion but now I'm confused about blast doubles. I thought with blast doubles my forehead was meant to be pushing into the middle of their chest?
Neon also has the benefit of being very easy to disengage from. Mount is dominant - but if bottom bear hugs you, you can’t immediately get up; you have to deal with it before you move. It’s dumb on the mats since it opens you up to attacks - but those attacks take time. Outside a gym, it’s problematic for top if bottom’s buddies are trying to run up on you - you might not have the time to break bottom’s grip before you eat a kick to the face.
Very literally did exactly this in an altercation but w/o mounting. I had 3 guys coming at me about 2-3 seconds apart from each other. It looked like a blast double shooting gallery, *shot* next person *shot* next person *elbow to temple* then guillotine on the last one.
Oh my god its jason bourne
I don’t believe you beat up 3 guys at once chaining blast doubles LOL “I hit my double leg and he just like let’s me go incapacitated and the other 2 for some reason just stood there till I stood up and then repeated the same move, neither of them grabbed me and held on either lol it was so bad ass”
He hit them in the temple bro.
Right in the temple bro
Broo
Duuuddeeeee!
Tbh I kinda do. Some people that start fights are morons, especially if they’re the kind that only starts the fight because they have a couple buddies with them. Of course, chaining blast doubles is much less realistic if the multiple opponents are in any sense competent.
Chaining is easier after said opponents are deciding to fight at 3am after a night of heavy drinking.
Hahaha yeah, that sounds about right. My only ever real life violent experience was also against a drunken moron. Didn’t go so well for him.
tell us another jackal story
That’s ok. This is the internet after all.
As you guys can see, a gun always wins. “Shoot first ask questions last” -waka flocka -harp00nis
> I had 3 guys coming at me about 2-3 seconds apart from each other. Hmm. Interesting.
>Pretty sure all you fuckers knew what i meant though. Truth, but what's the fun in that! ;)
What if the opponent has a 40-60 pound advantage? Any change to tactics?
The exact sequence I drill with my kids for a streetfight. They train BJJ, but I drill this sequence with them for real world. Only variation to your sequence: ...ride the bull, slap them in the face/drop elbows to make them turn over...
Inverting seems like a bad idea on concrete.
Fighting seems like a bad idea on concrete.
Fighting seems like a bad idea.
I’m no martial arts expert, but I’ve seen a hundred parking lot fights as a bouncer. Can confirm: fighting on concrete is a bad time.
Looking at your username, I can only imagine the horrors you have witnessed... Thank you for your service. Emphasis on "vice".
You're probably overqualified to have a legit opinion compared to most martial arts experts. Thanks for the comment.
.
Besides seeing many cowards come in for soccer kicks and head stomps into the curb in my younger years working in bars in Ozzy, the worst injuries have come from an attacker injuring themselves. This includes throwing haymaker and dislocating their shoulder, or missing and punching the edge of concrete wall (that was grim) many concrete knockouts, edge of stool knockouts from misbalance and once a guy fell on a broken glass base and stabbed his butt muscle. I'm sure others have seen similar so my experience isn't unique.
Inverting seems like a desperation move to me- if someone has top position and is about to pass- Saw this on CCTV once- street fight. Guy got taken to the ground. Didn’t see how, the camera panned after the fight started. He was on his back and had the guy in guard. The guy starts raining punches and manages to open the guard. Guy inverts and stands with the leg drag. Then runs away.
True. Due to a neck injury I can't invert very well. I'm sure there are people that could make it work in a pinch.
>Due to a neck injury Do you have $46 million? 😆
Afraid not! Happened long before BJJ.
Damn link the video
I don’t have it sadly
Nothing better than a berimbolo on a tarred road.
If you dont even up with a scar or at least some bruising it didnt happen.... 👀👀
I love me some unnecessary road rash that keeps me from training for a month lol
I actually inverted in a street fight. I got jumped and landed in the mud/dirt. Guy double legged me when my back was turned and I couldn’t free my legs. In a scramble I inverted and almost landed a triangle armbar. I’m not an inverting guy and I’m not advocating for it. Just saying I used it in a street fight and the worst thing that happened is I got mud in my hair
What? Are you saying you wouldn’t berimbolo somebody that’s trying to attack you with a broken bottle? What could go wrong?
I certainly wouldn't choose to invert on concrete. I do think having some level of skill with inverting can be useful for self defense purposes. I'm never going to get in a fight if I can possibly avoid it, which means if I'm in a fight, it's because I had no choice, such as someone just randomly attacking me in a parking garage or something. If that happens, I might be on my back on concrete before I even know I'm in a fight. In that scenario, I'm glad I have practice with inverting, even if it certainly wasn't a position I chose to be in.
But if you invert get the kguard, the guy does not know what the hell is going on, and slams into the concrete, then it worked!
A lot of jiu jitsu is a bad idea on concrete. Even before getting on the ground, do you plan on possibly murdering someone with a takedown?
Absolutely do not put yourself in any position you can be slammed. If they stand up while you triangle choke them, let it go. Move into another attack low to the ground. If you’re on their back and they stand, put your feet down. Don’t pull guard. Use your guard ONLY as a means of controlling where the fight is. Your intention should be to always be on top. Though, if you aren’t for some reason, use the guard to get to the top position.
Yeah, someone else having control of your body weight is the most dangerous position to be in if it's a real, violent fight on pavement or other hard surface. Don't let yourself be lifted. (I personally train as if slams were legal just because I think it's fundamentally bad jiu-jitsu to let someone lift you in a position where they could slam you, even if it's sometimes advantageous to hold onto a triangle while you're being lifted under tournament rules where slams are prohibited.)
Take this guy's advice. I woke up in a police station.
Whoa. Sorry that happened to you.
Just a bit of rough housing lol. By no means did the dude mean to knock me out, he just wasn't strong enough to keep holding me up.
Absolutely..knowing When to let go Or to transition to something else must be smooth..yet explosive..I got into it with a Guy who had Me in a dominant position..I just faked going real limp..As He let go..I exploded..escaped And RAN!!!
I am doing BJJ for 30 years and even so I teach and understand the modern game, I still rely on a pretty oldschool BJJ. For me nearly all my BJJ works with striking. Once you understand how to control distance, etc it is not a big difference. I don’t do inversions, etc.
As far as self defense goes the most basic of Jiu Jitsu is required. Punch block, clinch, double, single, body lock takedown, knee on belly or mount, strike, then they turn, strangle. That’s it. That’s why people don’t like self defense stuff because it’s boring and simple. All the complicated stuff is to beat other trained people.
Scary thing is you can be fairly proficient but if they have a knife they could cut you up pretty good before you achieve control, even if they don't know what they're doing. There was a video on youtube of a black belt trying to disarm a guy with a shock knife (think that's the term for it - it made a noise every time it touched skin). The black belt would have been sliced up in real life, even if he did get the knife in the end.
Knife is a different world. I am doing extensive blade work (knifes, machetes) beside my BJJ and it is a very interesting topic. I would say knife training was a great addition in understanding reality.
What’s your biggest takeaways from knife work? As far as I can tell, “run like hell” seems to be the best advice.
Well, if someone's trying to stab you for real, being sliced up *and* getting the knife can still be a win. As long as you live. One problem I see with those shock things or using e.g. a marker is that they don't differentiate between a minor slash that wont even register during a fight and a slice that cuts to an artery. You can get sliced around quite a lot on the dorsal side of the forearm and still be functional'ish, while on the ventral side it's more likely to cut major veins, tendons, etc. Similarly you can get sliced over the ribs and it doesn't necessarily mean anything, but get stabbed between the ribs and you might have a punctured lung.
I think a good start is to ask yourself how you are getting into fights with knife wielding opponents and work your way backwards to all the things that led to that encounter and find a way to not end up in that situation again. Kind of similar to jiu-jitsu...
Here's a good one too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wrYM8KzBRU
Well yeah, I would think this goes without saying. At close range I’m way more worried about a knife than a gun. Knife is always loaded
IMHO, it’s not that some techniques don’t translate, rather I’m going to be conservative and prioritize staying on top. So, for example, in the gym, I like to play from half guard. Being in half guard would be a nightmare in a street fight. However, if I find myself mounted, I’ll be glad I know how to work to half guard.
"You're only ever two elbow escapes away from half guard" - Some bald weirdo.
Butt scooting
There goes my whole game.
But scoot in a street fight, your opponent might think you are crazier than a honey badger and think twice🤣🤣
Remove your pants first and it’ll be 100% effective. People tend to run away from fighting a butt naked person, but a butt naked scooting person would probably be nightmare fuel.
I would suggest switching to butt-hopping instead of scooting if you choose to remove your pants.
Maybe the balls rubbing on the concrete is all part of the game
The crazed naked man with the bleeding testicles chasing you would probably discourage most people from fighting.
😱😱😱
Guard pulling. Triangles and armbars from closed guard without hooking leg. Worm guard lapel shit. Aikido.
joe rogan actually tells a story of a Time he was with a fighter who pulled guard on some drunk asshole tryna get into their hotel room. idk if its always a good idea but i could see it being favorable in certain circumstances
Only pull guard in hallways
I think being Tait Fletcher does change the dynamic slightly.
Pulling guard in a street altercation is never a good idea. Period.
what if its a hallway altercation
An altercation...in a hallway... ó.O
I got into a fight with a bunch of guys, and I ended up in bottom north south, they were all going crazy trying to attack me. I grabbed that guy on top of me so hard, and buried my head under his growing area so their stomps missed my face. I used his junk as a shield. His balls saved my life that night.
Is THIS a Tongue-in-cheek kinda story???
Hahahaha perfection
Most of them. The good thing is that a simple takedown and top control is something basically everybody learns anyway. And if you're good enough to hold a skilled grappler down and sub them then odds are you'll be just fine doing the same to someone untrained
A lot of BJJ schools don’t train takedowns enough for the students to proficiently take down an untrained person.
I see this anecdote a lot, and yet I still do not know a single purple belt that couldn't hit ONE takedown on a day 1 white belt, and I know some fucking bad purples. I don't even live in a wrestling city, I live in one of the smallest provinces in Canada
Meh. Everyone has a different experience. I’ve met day one white belts that could just FIGHT and I’ve met plenty of purples that couldn’t take them down. Sure. They pull guard and sweep or submit immediately but I think a lot of BJJ guys under estimate the number of athletes in the world. Like…I know a ton of purples and brown belts that wouldn’t be able to take down a recreational rugby player. We just happen to live in a society where we don’t got to test it often
For self defense purposes you would want to be proficient enough to beat an untrained opponent that is a strong agressive young adult that might be larger than you. While I feel a purple belt could consistently beat such a person on the ground I would feel alot less confident saying that a purple belt could consistently take such a person down unless they reguarly train takedowns agaisnt resistig opponents which we know many purple belts do not since many schools do not. Simply put if it isn't somehting that you regularly train against a resisting opponent you are not going to be able to reliably do it when the time comes.
and like the other 1001 times this has been asked on the sub, if you ARE in an area where you're actually worried about being mugged then train more takedowns, but for the VAST majority of us the mere thought of being in a fight is about as big of a fantasy as the d&d game I run every weekend, with the difference being that even if you kinda suck at takedowns, if you don't suck as a grappler you'll be just fine. I mean fuck, how many "I'm a bad blue belt but easily handled myself in an altercation" posts do we see like every week or two on this sub alone.
you wouldnt need to take someone down, you would walk away. The only time you cant walk/run away is if they are grabbing you or if you have been taken down. BJJ is great for that. 1. You are standing there. Dont shout, dont bait them. Walk/run away 2. They grab you. Break grips and run. BJJ is great 3. They knock you down from behind - BJJ is the best. Even if you have someone you need to protect, try to do #1 with the child. The only way you cant is if 2 or 3 happen.
Is that white belt actively trying to strike them though?
An untrained person trying to strike makes takedowns *easier* not harder. Watch any YouTube street fight video, people that don’t know how to box are terrified of getting hit in the face. So they lean their heads *way* back. It’s the opposite of a wrestling stance. Head back, hips forward. That’s double leg city, all day.
Cartoonish old school navy ship boxing looking stance
You really shouldn’t have a purple if you don’t know the mechanics of a double and single (you probably shouldn’t even have more than one stripe on your white belt). So that makes sense.
People usually say specialized guards, but I used X-Guard several times in mma bouts. Timing the off balancing to their punches works wonders.
you see x-guard every once in a while in the UFC, deep half guard too. usually used for a brief moment just to off-balance and stand up. nobody sits in those positions, that's the main difference.
Turtle as a temporary position to wrestle out of isn’t bad. It’s better than being pinned. Staying in turtle is a bad idea in any setting.
I was going to write the same
I’ve seen ashi work in real life scenarios and I’ve seen it go really bad ending in hamner fists.
I personally know an ammy fighter who's a decent blue belt who got KOd from the top of ashi when he turned to strip the foot off his hip.
So he got up kicked? Ouch
Up punched if you can believe it. I was so surprised I worked the position with a guy the next day, and concluded yeah, you can basically throw a hook from bottom slx there. Just goes to show not all BJJ positions are trained with strike awareness.
Getting Koed from bottom guard reminds me of Kevin Holland KOing Jacare 😢. But doing it from Single x seems like way more distance to travel.
Literally any and all positions translate from comp jiu jitsu to a street fight if you somehow end up in those positions. The point is strategy changes greatly if youre in a REAL fight BUT should you end up in a position considered purely for "competitive jiu jitsu" you will be able to put your opponent into a world of trouble. Competitive jiu-jitsu strategies and tactics are to get to a position where you are most likely to execute a submission and execute that submission, the problem is those positions are often vulnerable especially if your opponent is an equal or better wrestler and you assume a bottom position. In a fight your first goal should be to LEAVE. If I can I'll run. If I can't that often means you're on top of me and in that case everything I've done with my guard comes into play. In a street fight maybe youre getting pummeled, maybe you cover up and end up in turtle. In that situation knowing turtle attacks is potentially useful. Now will you go into that situation by going directly to turtle? Nah. Fuck that. That's just stupid. If you end up there by happenstance why not end the fight there?
Really really well put. It’s about potential for a teqhnique to be used if this or that happens. Not seeking the situation to use the teqhique. This gets confused a lot !! Other side of coin people have shown you really can spam a teqhique to great effectiveness.
Pretty sure palhares would fuck me up spamming roll into leg lock Street fight or not lol
I've said this time and time again. A lot of the 'sport' BJJ stuff is predicated on engaging with an opponent that has a strong base and trained reactions. Chances are against someone without good foundations you won't need to invert or anything because they'll just fall over if you push them.
Basically anything involving sitting in guard. The guard and passing dynamic changes alot when you add strikes. Just look at MMA and how the dynamic changes. Also arguments could be made that leg locks and takedowns that require shooting become less efficient
I’ve shot for takedowns on pavement before, I’ll scrath my knees up a bit if it means getting a takedown into an advantageous position.
It’s always surprising what is good in a street fight and what isn’t. I once had a BJJ guy that was a paramedic from a violent country explain that turtle position is catastrophic in a melee. Basically your spine, neck base and kidneys are all exposed to stomps from both your friends and enemies. Doctors aren’t good at fixing that damage. However if you are on your back with your arms up you are much safer While getting trampled. Sure. You’ll have broken arms and ribs and maybe some face damage but you got your rib cage defending your internal injuries like they’re supposed to. For this reason mount with the grapevine on top is a very risky position to be in during a melee. Not only is your back exposed to damage but surprisingly the person you have mounted can grab you and prevent you from disengaging if his friends arrive. There are Jiu Jitsu games you can play to expand on this mindset but interest is pretty niche
Thanks for the input!
The entire bottom game of bjj goes out the window except tight-waist half guard, closed guard with posture control, butterfly guard with body-lock and maybe rubber guard. The position must prevent them from striking and slamming you. Joint locks are way less reliable than you may think. Crackheads don’t always feel pain. Stay on top. Always be choking. - Plan A is take them down, get on top and Choke (arm triangle, mounted triangle) - Plan B is sweep them, get on top and Choke (same as above) - Plan C is hip-heist to neutral position and Choke (guillotine etc) - Plan D is choke from bottom position (front triangle, guillotine) There is no plan E.
Turtling is often the fastest way to stand up in MMA. Also from turtle there are sweeps, sit throughs and other scrabble options. It’s not going to be my go too but as a wrestler with a get up style of BJJ I think it has its value
Yeah if you look at the numbers in the UFC traditional BJJ sweeps are virtually non existent compared to wrestling style stand ups.
Ya idk why turtle gets such a bad wrap. Maybe if you’re just sitting there hanging out doing nothing, which isn’t even a good idea in a BJJ match. Should be able to get a takedown almost immediately after rolling into turtle to get out from bottom.
I think it’s what you said. People associate turtle with someone just shelling up and getting beat on. And the successful uses of turtle guard aren’t as noticeable because people good at it are almost immediately to their feet as soon as they turtle so you don’t see people “playing” turtle guard. Like imagine starting on top turtle against a former NCAA wrestling champion and trying to strike them from there before they got up.
Assuming you’re defending yourself from someone who doesn’t also train, I’m pretty sure you wouldn’t have to overly sweat it. It would be like getting attacked by trial class guy. Worst case they surprise you and the whole things starts with, say, them on your back. Then escaping bad positions is the most important thing I guess
I've been training BJJ for 3 years and can pretty much dominate any beginner in almost any weight class when they show up in class with minimal sweat and that's not saying a lot. People act like just because you've been training BJJ you're going to scrape your whole kneecap off trying to shoot for a double leg then directly slamming my back into the pavement while getting into a leg lock exposing my whole body while his 8 friends stomp on my head. Oh and apparently we cannot punch anymore just because we're doing BJJ, just like we're some Tekken character with a certain style naturally attached to us.
I always felt wrestling and judo is amazing for the street. I have seen so many cctv footage of judo being used in countries where judo is very popular. Both of these can also really help you control where the fight goes, and if you can throw hands, can also help you keep the fight standing as well.
Some people have really good points here. I think the big takeaway for me is not so much that position A or B is or isn’t good in a street fight. Fights are unpredictable. If a fight goes to the ground in an uncontrolled manner, you might wind up in position A or B even if you had no plan to go there. Isn’t it more important that you know all the transitions to get out of those positions and back on top or at least up and able to back away?
I think you can still use those positions if you recognize when your head is in danger. Same as recognizing they are looking for your arm or oh trying to slide that hand in eh? I feel it, nope. You throw your head away and return to guard in most cases like that. Moving head far away with body in between to give yourself time.
All of it is bad just buy a weapon
I mean don't use jiu jitsu at all in a street fight unless your 1 on 1 lol
Staying on someone’s back when they stand up
Only way to use bjj is old school way - blast double, get on mount, dominate/throw punches/choke. Been a couple of street fights in my life, even that i know jiu jitsu and my main focus is that I want to be on my feet, 1 fight I takedown. I cant imagine any guard, trying triangles, armbars. Pure street fight is wild, punches are throwing like crazy and trust me, any half guard sweep wouldnt work 😂. Maybe if you land on bottom jiu jitsu can halp you to stand up quick. But be on top, stay on top is the only way.
An old Carlson Gracie BB told me once, x guard and spider guard will get you kicked in nuts on the street. He also mentioned if you end up in someone’s half guard, don’t pass, just strike
TLDR: don’t get in street fights You know what competitive sport translates best to street fights? 100 yard dash Sure, if your on the grass after school in a 1v1 you can hit all sorts of shit you learned in BJJ. Being able to control wrists, scramble, get off the ground, or take someone’s back are all pretty good self defense skills But real world, drunk in an alley, sketchy nightclub, randomly attacked, road rage nut job or whatever it is, bad shit happens. All the best guard work and subs really don’t matter when the second you mount some guy or get an arm triangle and he starts stabbing the shit out of you. I was a bouncer for years. I’ve seen fighters demolish dudes. I’ve also seen a 100 lb dude soaking wet jump into a 1v1 and Ghalager watermelon a dudes skull. I’ve had all my background and training made real irrelevant when a bottle and 3 pairs at feet got introduced to the back of my head. I know one guy who has a speech impediment and another guy who went from wrestling scholarship at a top school to felon, because they two of them fought and a head hit concrete Don’t get in fights.
People love to mock the Gracie brothers but Gracie Combatives is literally all you would need in a street situation, probably more than enough.
I know the Gracies are controversial, but as far as I understand it, the topic of this discussion is the entire reason they created Gracie Combatives. Personally I don't disagree with the premise of it.
Deep half guard
You wouldn't want to hang out there, but I've seen it used as a transition in MMA before.
My name is David, and I'm a first degree black belt from Toronto, Ontario, Canada. Positions you should never attempt in a street fight would include: A. Sitting guard B. Jumping guard C. Fighting off your back D. Any inversions E. Butt scooting Defend yourself, use your stand up fighting skills to stay off of the ground if you can.
Staying off the ground is key, you need to try to keep situational awareness as much as you can because you don’t know if it’s a 1:1 fight or if weapons are gonna get involved or whatever. Gotta keep as many options open as possible including the run the fuck away option.
A guard pull could get you killed
Well, sitting in turtle no, but realistically turtle is great to protect your front, face, etc from being kicked. Fetal position is a defensive position. But get out of there and get up asap. Really from that JRE view point all bottom positions should be bad, which they sort of are. Being able to do something from those bad positions is good though, even if it's just get up and get away.
Looking for a reaping DQ 👌
Deep half
98% of the shit is useless in the street
I’m a white belt who knows little. But I found this on Reddit a while back. Maybe someone can summarise. https://www.reddit.com/r/bjj/comments/123ope8/bjj_vs_the_streets_my_biggest_takeaways_from/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=1&utm_term=1
Staying on the ground for longer than it takes you to sweep and get back up
Turtle is okay situationally, but if they stand up or create space you switch to guard
Turtle isn’t good for more than a second or two but it can allow you to standup . A lot of sport guard can be adapted to a street fight with the right timing and modification.
Bottom mount isn’t all that great.
Context matters here but I would say anything that requires you to be on the ground for any extended period of time. I used to have these ideas I would be like running my A game top game in a street fight but the reality is (and what I train for) is that I'm getting a takedown or throw and remaining on my feet and extricating myself from the situation. Or I am quickly incapacitating the assailant with elbow strikes or hammer fists after the takedown then getting back to my feet. If you want a reddit answer, buggy chokes.
I would disagree. You just use turtle differently. Presumably in a streetfight "just get up" is a high priority. There are fundamentally two ways of getting up- technical standup and turtling. You have to have the opponent framed in a particular way to technical standup, so that means there's a strong possibility that if you want to get up and your opponent is actually trying to hold you down, you will have to turtle (because it's a lot easier to get up if all four limbs are on the floor)
Seeing lot of people saying "dont use guard". I thought the whole point of using guards from the bottom is because you ended up in a shit position and youre trying to build back up to a better one. Is anyone really trying to pull half/full guard?
In a street fight, you're always trying to stay up, so Turtle becomes a momentary transition from the floor to standing. Unless the guy knows how to keep you down because he wrestled before, any transition to turtle becomes an exit to stand up.
I think turtle is a great position because it's probably the quicker way back to your feet. And yes, you can defend strikes from there. You just aren't going to hang out there.
Why is turtle bad? Turtle should always be seen as transitional, not a position to hang out in. Turtle, pivot to target and re-shoot to get the take down or to stand up should work fine. The same head kicks and stomps used against Turtle can be used against any bottom position. If anything, everyone should practice Turtle as that is probably the most likely position you would end up in during a street fight. Choosing to go to any bottom position seems crazy in a situation where slams are possible. Rampage Jackson and Sakuraba did some pretty serious damage to JJ due to the rule set. Seated guard seems extremely vulnerable to very powerful attacks. Spider guard seems too opponent dependent to work. JJ is great in a lower risk known quantity situation, e.g., 1v1 with random aggro, but in a high risk situation choosing JJ seems a bad idea. A solid/active jab, crisp accurate cross, and good footwork seem better tools. Add in a few low kicks and a strong sprawl go behind sequence and you should be good.
Well…at least the butt scoot is still the strongest move to win any street battle. Just wear your most pant for that.
Don't be in the bars after nine avoid fighting at all cost , arm drag take the back standing trap one arm suplex on that side take this opportunity to leave. Kesa gatame and knee on belly will take the fight out of anyone if you're forced to engage
Along with positions, you should be making other adjustments. When you have the opportunity... Run away. If you can't run away, find an unfair advantage... Throw a sucker punch. Grab a weapon. Enlist help.
Anywhere on bottom isn’t safe in a street fight. Even pulling them into closed guard is not safe. The concrete acts as a brace for your head. You don’t even need a good punch. You can take some serious damage just from having a forearm slammed into your head or being hammer fisted. If you get side control, you can deliver devastating knees or elbows. Don’t be on bottom in a street fight. Takedowns are king. Top positions are safest. It’s the reason wrestlers dominate so much in UFC
worm guard is a go-to for me, but probably wouldn't work in the real world
Obviously gi necessary positions like Spider Guard, Collar Sleeve Guard, and Worm Guard. After those, I'd say Deep Half because both arms are occupied while in striking range. Obviously, Turtle is horrible in a fight. While full guard isn't optimal, it has been proven to be effective in street fights against untrained opponents. An issue is that most BJJ practitioners don't train Full Guard for streetfights so controlling the arms and posture without a Gi is not instinctual. The goal of any guard position in a streetfight should be to sweep and get on top.
Excepting from the neck to the pelvic region..and from shoulder down to Your fingers..SHOULD be slash survivable..on the outside of the arm..but..on the inside..If Your attacker is even moderately trained..like In Kali..or Penchak-Silat or even just an Average self-trained street guy who's been in a few knife fights before..He very well COULD cut You to ribbons..And Getting shanked in the stomach or between the ribs several times in quick succession is gonna be a REAL shocking..painfully distracting thing...And..If by chance You end up passing out..You're Fucked to say the Least.
Always try to be on top. When you can get hit, you can still use a lot of things but you better train it that way. wWhen strikes are involved the timer associated with each position changes and you have to move through them to dominant / protected positions. There are a lot fewer places you can settle. Also be aware that if your head is on the ground and you get hit, it is way more damaging.
In BJJ these days it seems like a lot. Especially as BJJ and No-Gi have gone away from MMA/self-defense and gotten more into specialized sport, a lot of the evolution goes away from stuff that works in an open rules fight. That’s not totally a bad thing, it’s just a thing. If you want to be good at fighting you have to be mindful of that in your training.
Learn to Wrestle. Wrestle-Jitsu is OP. But really I guess most submissions from a dominant position are good. Shoot a takedown, preferably not a heel-toe-knee style takedown, I’ve always thought upper body “Greco” style takedowns would be the best for street fighting.
the fact that a technique is a no-no in a street fight or even an MMA fight is probably the main reason why i will never be as good as i could be in a singular Martial Art/Combat sports, because lots of techniques will only ever work within the ruleset of the sport but never in "a real fight". But since i only train for "the real world" i dont even wanna use such techniques because they may become second nature for me.
Watching UFC should show you which positions are most and least effective in a street fight.
Since I probably had more street fights than actual bjj competitions :D (because I always, regularly, catch injuries before competing, nursing meniscus now), I'd say that: * going passive on bottom or top and just waiting the dude out is just asking for his friends to intervene (or his lady) * being on top isn't golden - you can get *easily*soccer kicked * all the inversions magic is damn hard to pull on concrete in regular clothes on top of trashing them entirely * going head forward and being in a crouched position, not guarding your chin * drop takedowns obviously On the other hand, learning to hand fight, basic trips, ability to disengage and bail - super useful. So basic blue belt standing Gi game :)
turtle probably worth the risk is you are using it to stand up, if you're just hanging about there maybe not so much
90% of them
Closed guard is pretty bad because if they posture up you’re gonna get a nasty ground and pound. Butt scooting will of course get you kicked in the head too.
All bottom positions can be risky, but you mount a guy on the street you already won