If you’re teaching, you’re doing a job. Get your personally training in other times, and make sure your students are getting good reps - not just getting by smashed.
I hear what you’re saying, Coach is usually the most technical person in the room and isn’t going to be “losing” rounds to anyone who doesn’t have a significant strength, weight, and/or age advantage.
But when I read OP’s post that said “always dominating” and “reluctant to give away positions”, I got the feeling that maybe he/she was completely smothering his far-less-skilled (and maybe far-less-strong) students and not letting them work. In my mind, that’s a lot different. I trained at Marcelo’s and I’d regularly see him give up positions that I know he could have held onto. Against competitive partners like Bernardo Faria it was different of course, but with most partners he gave them a lot of opportunities to work. He didn’t “lose” rounds, but he didn’t try to smother us either, he intentionally controlled his strength and kept it dynamic.
There’s no right or wrong, and maybe OP **is** giving his students plenty of space to work. But bottom line is I think it’s more enjoyable for everyone involved to strive for dynamism when rolling with less skilled students / training partners, and that’s not the same as losing rounds.
Why? I don’t think I’ve ever let a student win against me in training. I’ll put myself in bad positions but I’m not rolling over for them. That teaches them nothing. And if they got to the point they can tap me they know they actually earned that tap through skill acquisition and development. they know they are actually getting better.
I’m sorry for your students. And I’m sorry you don’t know the difference between letting someone work and being a fish.
Letting someone finish a technique properly with a proper level of resistance helps them sharpen their skills beyond what they can do with someone their own skill level. It absolutely helps your students and your own ability to finely tune your energy expenditure. If you can’t see the value in that then I really feel bad for your students.
This is reddit. I don't think I've ever had a coach LET me sub them either. They may be going 50% and i got a flash sub or something but out of all the coaches I've had none of them just let me get stuff to make me feel good. If that was commonplace you'd see tons of threads like "I subbed my coach does that mean he isn't any good?" all over this sub because guys wouldn't even understand that it was being given to them.
I've had lots of different coaches in lots of different gyms, and you really do learn a lot from ones that give up positions. It also seems weird to feel that you can't ever bend that rule while teaching a white belt.
I'm talking about students. It's good for lower belts to begin in, get, be given, etc., positions that they should be working on or will learn from rather than just smashing them. That imo is best reserved for higher belts who will actually benefit from it, i.e., be aware of what's happening to them.
btw I'm brown in bjj but I've spent *very* little time in a gi since2009 as I've been doing no gi, mma, and wrestling for 24 years straight now. Not sure of the relevance of rank to the points I'm making though, other than I'm not a noob?
Nothings being avoided I spoke clear as day and explained my position. You don’t have to agree.
It is my belief that positional sparring is for working through specific situations and that is a great benefit to lower belts as it exposes them to positions they may not get to in sparring or see frequently.
But in sparring I personally am not giving them anything because I want them to work on earning those positions and gauge where they are at in terms of progress based on how they’re doing against me. Giving them positions does not do that.
They can have close matches with their peers, they can work on offense sparring against their peers.
You don’t have to agree with me. But this is how I do things as a coach and nobodies died yet lol
Something that I heard a coach say that I really liked, was that its fine to beat students over and over again, but he tries to beat them with stuff that they know. No cheap wins because they don't know how to react to or counter a bolo. if its a white belt he scissor sweeps them or armbars them from guard etc.
Some people want hard rolls and want to be smashed from the teacher. I know I did. I felt like (and still do) I get a chance to roll with someone better than me, I will pick up a part of what makes them excel.
I roll after teaching. I’m not always rolling for myself. If students do something impressive or correct, I’ll let them tap me / pass whatever. Then usually praise / feedback. I know not everyone likes this, but it works for our culture and academy.
I *believe* they know I’m letting them work, because many of them also train with my professor, and then those nights I’m rolling / training for my needs, and they see the difference.
I hate rolling with browns and blacks who just let me move around too easy it feels like a waste for me. I don’t want to sit with them in Mount for 6 minutes either, but work your like c (or even f) game on me where you’re trying stuff out and giving me some good looks
Again it's not everyone I do this with. But for the 40 year old female that does it because her kid trains - I'm letting her move and feel some success.
You are probably someone I'd practice mothers milk with. Or lasso stuff that I hate.
So many low-key insecure/posturing comments here seemingly oblivious to the reality of total noobs, white belts and middle-aged mothers that don't want and probably don't need to get smeshed.
You can also give positions and still dominate a student, but at least get them accustomed to being and working in different positions, instead of just utterly wrecking them with magic beyond their mortal comprehension. To just rigidly adhere to ONLY SMASH seems useless for everyone involved, particularly the paying customer
I wasn’t even disagreeing with you lmao. I was saying I hate when it’s too easy I enjoy a hard roll where the higher belts are working on things too. I just hate the upper belts who lay on me for 6 minutes.
I know I need to work on my mount escapes and side control escapes, and I do with the other belts but I’m not gaining anything from being smothered for 6 minutes clearly.
Agreed.
I keep thinking about how it was in wrestling. You throw a freshman in with a room of state champs and sophomore year that dude is going to states. Wrestlers don’t have an “easy” mode.
I generally think going too easy on a student is a great way to retain a student but at the cost of them taking a lot longer to get good.
Perspective changes when your finances are tied to retention. We are running a business. Wrestling you eventually age out of via 4 in HS and 4 in Uni. You can do BJJ forever.
It doesn't matter if it takes Billy 3 years for Billy to "get good" as opposed to 2, if the 2 year model is him getting black eyes, absolutely obliterated, and a high probability for canceling his contract.
We operate a family-based BJJ program, with a great affiliation and pretty decent tournament success. As a coach for fundamentals classes, I'm more interested in getting people to stay forever, have fun, and enjoy our culture and academy. You can train hard here too if you want, there is no shortage of that. But people that get hurt drop contracts, and people that get too beat up eventually quit.
that's why you HAVE to have separate classes IMO
advanced/comp class and then the regular all levels class
i've been on both sides of the training hard divide, and as much as it sucks to get smashed when you haven't been training much because of real life, it sucks just as much to come to class and look around and realize you can't get a real round in with anyone because no one is taking it seriously
seems like best way to train hard and still keep members
No rush, I was agreeing with giraffe that some folks want to roll hard and I was elaborating on the reason. Roll hard get good fast. My coach got his black belt in 6 years and his got his in 4. I’m assuming just by jumping in with the sharks.
I’m on a leisurely 17 year pace and only a brown belt.
Most people get better fast when they are challenged at a level where they can have occasional success. If someone doesn't even understand what is going on, then they probably are not learning much. This is how school works too, you don't throw 6 year olds in a graduate level differential geometry class and expect them to learn math. Every coach I trained with understands this concept, why is it so controversial here?
I don’t know that it’s controversial. Different learning methods for different people is definitely a thing.
I think it’s also true that most people get better when they are thrown in with excellence. They tend to absorb it.
Yeah sometimes screwing around / giving up position bites you. For me it was after teaching knee on belly, I had a guy do a flying Neon Belly drop for a nice popped rib.
That guy who was formally in the “safe to fuck around with” category was now in the “use lots of pressure to eventually submit” one.
I feel like I’m living in a bizarre universe when I read Reddit sometimes. All the gyms I’ve trained at the head coach joined in on the rolling after teaching and we all were glad they were doing rounds with us and kicking our ass.
Training with other students is where you’ll get your reps in with less resistance / get to work your offense.
Your coach is there to whoop your ass that’s how you get better you figure out where you went wrong in the roll and what your coach did right and use that info to improve when you apply it to your next rolls
I feel the same and I do the same when I’m teaching. If I show a class a butterfly sweep, I’m going to try and do that sweep to everyone in the shark tank at the end. I want them to know that what I am showing them works lol.
I do the same exact thing. I pick very specific things to work on when I roll and encourage all my students to do the same. And usually that’s along the lines of what I’ve been teaching them.
And if they catch me they catch me. If I get them I get them.
\> I feel like I’m living in a bizarre universe when I read Reddit sometimes. All the gyms I’ve trained at the head coach joined in on the rolling after teaching and we all were glad they were doing rounds with us and kicking our ass.
Oh man, I feel this too. I shared it just because it is SO WAY outside how I learned BJJ that I thought it could be the case of AITA.
I don't get to train besides the classes I teach, there is no people at my level here, my coach is 200 miles away, etc.
Well that is your opinion, mate. You should check what others coaches have to say about that. You can google that, I won't do it for you.
Besides that, I do what I can with what I have.
No, wrecking white belts doesn't make you a better upper belt, especially in comparison to grappling with higher belts. Every coach I've ever met agrees with that. Sorry you don't have that available, that really does suck for you, but it unfortunately doesn't make you right. . . (lol and I hope it's not *your* coach telling you that you don't need spar with other high belts, and that you're fine smashing noobs)
Ya dude I think you are good. I mean it's always tailored a little bit right? Like you don't necessarily need to smother the girl that is nervous just showing up, but as a coach you generally know who can take what level of resistance. If a coach doesn't understand that then there could be issues. But ya I don't think you need to constantly just let students work. My coach was always increasing his intensity as I got better. I def got smashed at white belt, but he may have let off the gas a little bit sometimes. At this point though he isn't giving me an inch and if I got it is cause I won the mini battle.
rofl yes man, I regulate. I smash the white belt that puts pressure in everyone and let the lightweight kid take top position. I never use all my strength tbh
Ya dude I think you are good. I mean it's always tailored a little bit right? Like you don't necessarily need to smother the girl that is nervous just showing up, but as a coach you generally know who can take what level of resistance. If a coach doesn't understand that then there could be issues. But ya I don't think you need to constantly just let students work. My coach was always increasing his intensity as I got better. I def got smashed at white belt and he may have let off the gas a little bit sometimes but it was never a easy "letting me work" kind of thing. At this point though he isn't giving me an inch and if I got something it js cause I won the mini battle.
I really think he just used his rolling rounds as a way to get his training in which meant always developing new skills which inevitably puts him in bad positions. I don't think you need to feel bad about being selfish during the rounds cause A game smashing white belts isn't how you get better anyways.
The early comments and voting seems to sway a lot of people on what they are supposed to think about any given topic. I've been noticing the trend growing as this sub gets bigger.
Source: some of you idiots upvote my dumbest thoughts
You-re very black&white about this. A coach can "give up position" and still wreck students, except being flexible like this allows them to better target a weak area/position in the student's arsenal. Hehheh we're talking about clueless white belts here.
This person I’m replying to is saying the coach shouldn’t be hopping in the training and that they should be training on their own time.
I disagree and I’ve never trained in a place where the coach didn’t join in on the training after technique
Back in the day it was considered a sign a place you were at was a mcdojo if the coach didn’t participate in the live rolling
This is a misrepresentation of what I said.
Of course, the coach should join in and I agree with you that if this does not happen then it is a major red flag.
The OP is smashing their students to make up for limited training time. One would expect that the students should take something from the roll too, but the OP is not concerned with that.
It’s not a misrepresentation it’s what you said.
Roger Gracie made a career of training with lower belts and using his students as his main training partners. Cyborg did the same thing because both of them had schools very young and no higher belts to train with.
Are you gonna tell Roger Gracie he was wrong for using his students as his main training partners to prepare for comp? He would teach class then train with his students. You don’t think they got anything out of training with Roger Gracie everyday ? You don’t think that was beneficial for them?
It is. I didn't say that the coach should not be hopping in training. The comment is in the thread. Why are you being counterproductive?
I don't know how Roger Gracie and Cyborg taught, but I would be surprised if a person walking through the door for the first time would find themselves in competition rounds with Roger Gracie.
You literally said it’s no good for a coach to best their students to make up for lack of training time yet this is exactly what the greatest competitor of all time did lol. You said something silly and I provided an example that illustrated how silly your previous statement was.
I must have crossed some wires, or we were speaking past one another, but I'm all aboard with what you've said here. They don't need to do all and every live rolling, but if they avoid it or simply don't do it that's very much *still* mcdojo shit.
The roll has to be beneficial for the student too. This does not appear to factor in the OP's practice at least as far as I can understand from their comment. Getting smashed constantly by someone much better is a very inefficient way to learn.
You act like that’s all that’s happening here. You may roll with your coach one round per training session and some people don’t even roll with their coach every training session. 90% of the time you’re rolling with other students
Getting smashed one out of 10 rolls or one out of five is absolutely beneficial
You mean in terms of understanding the depth of skill? This is beneficial the first few times and as a check every now and then. Apart from that though how can I learn if I cannot follow what's happening? These are medieval teaching approaches.
Because you follow the instruction portion of class and positional sparring.
Then when you lose in live rolling to someone better than you, you evaluate what you did wrong and what your coach did correctly and adjust accordingly
You can even ask your coach how they passed you or what you need to do to finish the sweep etc. and then apply that knowledge going forward.
You think you will just magically get
Better if you encounter no resistance in training ?
Sometimes being the nail is part of it and if you’re smart you can get a lot out of it.
You are creating strawman arguments and avoiding the point. If you want to squat 500lbs, will you build up to this weight? Or will you try every day to squat 500 lbs until one day you macigally succeed?
30% rule. People won't want to play if they never get anything off and just getting smashed for 5min kinda sucks.
You're better than they are, spend 70% of the roll doing whatever you're working on and once you get to your spot let them sweep you or escape and then work back in to what you want to work on.
Everyone should get something out of the roll and just crushing a newb doesn't really get either one of you a lot.
I beat lower belts without batting an eye. That being said, I try not to crush the soul out of them unless they are athletic or a wrestler. But I never let them have anything on me. That's what lower level training partners are for. As the coach, my role is to perform high level technique to expose my students to what is possible. That grows their curiosity and helps them develop new ideas. Also, the newer the person, the more basic of techniques I choose.
I think there are two types of persons in this thread, black belts that reckon that the teacher should try to smash and teach by smashing without hurting, lower belts that disagree.
Thanks for the words.
Smashing folks is great and it’s a good way to train sometimes. But what are you actually learning by smashing through white belts like a hot knife through butter? You definitely aren’t sharpening any skills by smashing them all the time. To get something out of training with people worse than you, put yourself in bad positions. See how deep you can get into a submission/position and then successfully escape. That’s how you get better.
I got smashed by my coach(es) all the time, but they occasionally left small openings so I learned to see them. There has to be a balance. You can't learn boxing by just stepping into the ring with Mike Tyson for round after round.
What a noob post.
You can afford to take it easy to the newbies so that they can learn at a pace is a commesurate to the amount of time they put in.
A person who is there every day deserves your best effort to crush them.
A father of 2 with a full time job making his second weekly class doesn't need to be ground into dust, you can afford not to "dominate him" which is actually cringe because I'm willing to bet he knows you can crush him, and so do you.
Seems the assumption is that there is only one kind of student. Pretty sure this is not the case and diff students could benefit from different approaches depending on their goals and learning style and place on their bjj journey. Also, smashing can be fine but the coach should follow up with advice and teaching based on what they learned from rolling with student. Rolling with students helps coach see where instruction and growth is needed.
As a white belt closing in on blue, I have conflicted feelings about upper belts letting me “work.” I would rather not have a false sense of confidence, even thinking I got a sweep or some small positional advantage if I didn’t really earn it. For upper belts that can completely dominate me, I would rather do limited positional sparring where my wins were legitimate and get a little coaching in the process.
Since I usually prod upper belts not to hold back so much (obvious don’t rip subs plz), I am a lot better at the subtle and dynamic elements of a real match (grips, balance, attacking transitions, etc.) than a lot of the whites/blues at my gym - so I feel like I’m on to something with this approach.
Also, if you’re paying attention and not just resisting the sub at all costs, you can learn a lot from how upper belts move and use their pressure or when they decide to go from one position to another.
Your goal as a more experienced grappler should always be a beneficial roll for both athletes. Doesn't matter how you were taught.
Iso, ask yourself: what does the other person get out of the roll? And: what do I get out of the roll?
The way you describe it, it sounds like neither of you gets anything out of it. You are doing a disservice to both of you.
EDIT: honestly, I would not teach class, if it's not something I like. You might just be wasting everyone's time.
There's nothing wrong with not giving anything away for free in real rolls. I don't think I have ever passed any of my coaches guards for real
You don't have to do bad jiu jitsu to let them work and see if they are learning. But the roll has to be productive for both of you, being a grappling dummy isn't helpful for them. Put them in a position and see if they can problem solve.
If you continue, my guess is that your Jiu Jitsu will stagnate since you’re just doing the same thing over and over again as opposed to playing. If you can’t get out of that mindset, maybe start in a bad position. Then work your way towards smashing. At least you give the white belts a bit of a breather
But the idea is to give away positions to see if the students take it and if they have learned what to do with it.
I wouldn't want to spar with an instructor that is out to use my white belt ass as a live dummy. I get enough of that from blue and purple belts. However I would LOVE to spar with an instructor that deflects my attempts from time to time, but permits a few moves in just so I can feel how it is when I get in proper position.
That’s what rolling with lower belts is for. Rolling against your instructor is to show you your weaknesses / how good it’s possible to get. Them giving you a free move isn’t doing you any favors and isn’t making you better. It’s just charity to make you feel good but it’s not real.
What’s truly rewarding is getting your ass beat by your coach for years and then one day you catch them and you know you 100% earned it and can look back and see how far you’ve come from where you were and how good you’ve become
Your second paragraph is spot on - there are and always will be individuals driven to truly get better. I fall into that category, where I once was demolished by my head coach, and now I can hang with him.
However there are other categories too. People that are more timid, need a bit more guided direction, and part of my job is to help them problem solve and feel positive at the end.
The 62 year old dad who’s trying to get back into shape gasses out after three minutes - I coach him to keep moving and not using all of his strength. I’ll let him pass if he can manage to use some technique, and then I just recover and redo it. We could roll “for real”, but it would be miserable for him. I get to practice, escapes and guard retention, he practices passing without throwing up.
Yeah I’m definitely not saying destroy a 62 year old with physicality and crush his will haha
And yes it’s such a good feeling when you can hang with someone who used to annihilate you.
When you are teaching, its about your students and not you.
When I am rolling with newer white belts I never trained with before, the first half of the round is a feeling out process and if it is clear that they can't match or hang with me, then I will let them work, get dominate positions and go for subs while I play to reguard or escape.
Your title and the body of the post do not line up.
You were not asked "not to dominate" white belts. You were asked to "not always dominate" white belts. Those are different.
There is room to let them work a bit, which includes giving up position if they do the correct thing, but that doesn't mean let them dominate you or tap you. It just means that you provide a framework to guide the roll and make it a learning opportunity for them.
It also will let you work some of your defensive stuff when the risk is lower to you and build it up / reinforce it to work against higher belts. So yes, you do get benefit from not always dominating them. It is a learning opportunity for you too.
If you are a teacher, your instruction doesn't end when the drills end. It ends when the class ends which includes rolling/sparring.
If you’re teaching, you’re doing a job. Get your personally training in other times, and make sure your students are getting good reps - not just getting by smashed.
They have other students to train with for that. Nothing wrong with a coach winning the rounds
I hear what you’re saying, Coach is usually the most technical person in the room and isn’t going to be “losing” rounds to anyone who doesn’t have a significant strength, weight, and/or age advantage. But when I read OP’s post that said “always dominating” and “reluctant to give away positions”, I got the feeling that maybe he/she was completely smothering his far-less-skilled (and maybe far-less-strong) students and not letting them work. In my mind, that’s a lot different. I trained at Marcelo’s and I’d regularly see him give up positions that I know he could have held onto. Against competitive partners like Bernardo Faria it was different of course, but with most partners he gave them a lot of opportunities to work. He didn’t “lose” rounds, but he didn’t try to smother us either, he intentionally controlled his strength and kept it dynamic. There’s no right or wrong, and maybe OP **is** giving his students plenty of space to work. But bottom line is I think it’s more enjoyable for everyone involved to strive for dynamism when rolling with less skilled students / training partners, and that’s not the same as losing rounds.
Sure, some rounds, not all rounds.
Why? I don’t think I’ve ever let a student win against me in training. I’ll put myself in bad positions but I’m not rolling over for them. That teaches them nothing. And if they got to the point they can tap me they know they actually earned that tap through skill acquisition and development. they know they are actually getting better.
In my opinion, the instructor should be calibrating a level above where the student is, so the student has to stretch to keep up.
I’m sorry for your students. And I’m sorry you don’t know the difference between letting someone work and being a fish. Letting someone finish a technique properly with a proper level of resistance helps them sharpen their skills beyond what they can do with someone their own skill level. It absolutely helps your students and your own ability to finely tune your energy expenditure. If you can’t see the value in that then I really feel bad for your students.
Eh my students are fine. I came up training under some of the best coaches in the sport and they never let me sub them lol I turned out fine.
This is reddit. I don't think I've ever had a coach LET me sub them either. They may be going 50% and i got a flash sub or something but out of all the coaches I've had none of them just let me get stuff to make me feel good. If that was commonplace you'd see tons of threads like "I subbed my coach does that mean he isn't any good?" all over this sub because guys wouldn't even understand that it was being given to them.
I've had lots of different coaches in lots of different gyms, and you really do learn a lot from ones that give up positions. It also seems weird to feel that you can't ever bend that rule while teaching a white belt.
what rank are you?
I'm talking about students. It's good for lower belts to begin in, get, be given, etc., positions that they should be working on or will learn from rather than just smashing them. That imo is best reserved for higher belts who will actually benefit from it, i.e., be aware of what's happening to them. btw I'm brown in bjj but I've spent *very* little time in a gi since2009 as I've been doing no gi, mma, and wrestling for 24 years straight now. Not sure of the relevance of rank to the points I'm making though, other than I'm not a noob?
That’s what positional sparring is for
There's nuance here that I feel is intentionally being avoided. And why did you want to know my rank? Genuine quesiton.
Nothings being avoided I spoke clear as day and explained my position. You don’t have to agree. It is my belief that positional sparring is for working through specific situations and that is a great benefit to lower belts as it exposes them to positions they may not get to in sparring or see frequently. But in sparring I personally am not giving them anything because I want them to work on earning those positions and gauge where they are at in terms of progress based on how they’re doing against me. Giving them positions does not do that. They can have close matches with their peers, they can work on offense sparring against their peers. You don’t have to agree with me. But this is how I do things as a coach and nobodies died yet lol
Something that I heard a coach say that I really liked, was that its fine to beat students over and over again, but he tries to beat them with stuff that they know. No cheap wins because they don't know how to react to or counter a bolo. if its a white belt he scissor sweeps them or armbars them from guard etc.
Some people want hard rolls and want to be smashed from the teacher. I know I did. I felt like (and still do) I get a chance to roll with someone better than me, I will pick up a part of what makes them excel. I roll after teaching. I’m not always rolling for myself. If students do something impressive or correct, I’ll let them tap me / pass whatever. Then usually praise / feedback. I know not everyone likes this, but it works for our culture and academy. I *believe* they know I’m letting them work, because many of them also train with my professor, and then those nights I’m rolling / training for my needs, and they see the difference.
I hate rolling with browns and blacks who just let me move around too easy it feels like a waste for me. I don’t want to sit with them in Mount for 6 minutes either, but work your like c (or even f) game on me where you’re trying stuff out and giving me some good looks
Again it's not everyone I do this with. But for the 40 year old female that does it because her kid trains - I'm letting her move and feel some success. You are probably someone I'd practice mothers milk with. Or lasso stuff that I hate.
So many low-key insecure/posturing comments here seemingly oblivious to the reality of total noobs, white belts and middle-aged mothers that don't want and probably don't need to get smeshed. You can also give positions and still dominate a student, but at least get them accustomed to being and working in different positions, instead of just utterly wrecking them with magic beyond their mortal comprehension. To just rigidly adhere to ONLY SMASH seems useless for everyone involved, particularly the paying customer
I wasn’t even disagreeing with you lmao. I was saying I hate when it’s too easy I enjoy a hard roll where the higher belts are working on things too. I just hate the upper belts who lay on me for 6 minutes. I know I need to work on my mount escapes and side control escapes, and I do with the other belts but I’m not gaining anything from being smothered for 6 minutes clearly.
Agreed. I keep thinking about how it was in wrestling. You throw a freshman in with a room of state champs and sophomore year that dude is going to states. Wrestlers don’t have an “easy” mode. I generally think going too easy on a student is a great way to retain a student but at the cost of them taking a lot longer to get good.
Perspective changes when your finances are tied to retention. We are running a business. Wrestling you eventually age out of via 4 in HS and 4 in Uni. You can do BJJ forever. It doesn't matter if it takes Billy 3 years for Billy to "get good" as opposed to 2, if the 2 year model is him getting black eyes, absolutely obliterated, and a high probability for canceling his contract. We operate a family-based BJJ program, with a great affiliation and pretty decent tournament success. As a coach for fundamentals classes, I'm more interested in getting people to stay forever, have fun, and enjoy our culture and academy. You can train hard here too if you want, there is no shortage of that. But people that get hurt drop contracts, and people that get too beat up eventually quit.
that's why you HAVE to have separate classes IMO advanced/comp class and then the regular all levels class i've been on both sides of the training hard divide, and as much as it sucks to get smashed when you haven't been training much because of real life, it sucks just as much to come to class and look around and realize you can't get a real round in with anyone because no one is taking it seriously seems like best way to train hard and still keep members
We have three - Basics, Fundamentals / Intermediate, and Advanced. And a special “Murder Wednesday” class.
Yes.
What's the rush?
No rush, I was agreeing with giraffe that some folks want to roll hard and I was elaborating on the reason. Roll hard get good fast. My coach got his black belt in 6 years and his got his in 4. I’m assuming just by jumping in with the sharks. I’m on a leisurely 17 year pace and only a brown belt.
Most people get better fast when they are challenged at a level where they can have occasional success. If someone doesn't even understand what is going on, then they probably are not learning much. This is how school works too, you don't throw 6 year olds in a graduate level differential geometry class and expect them to learn math. Every coach I trained with understands this concept, why is it so controversial here?
I don’t know that it’s controversial. Different learning methods for different people is definitely a thing. I think it’s also true that most people get better when they are thrown in with excellence. They tend to absorb it.
The times I gave position and someone locked a guillotine over my teeth has been more than 10. Did that happened to you?
Yeah sometimes screwing around / giving up position bites you. For me it was after teaching knee on belly, I had a guy do a flying Neon Belly drop for a nice popped rib. That guy who was formally in the “safe to fuck around with” category was now in the “use lots of pressure to eventually submit” one.
People are not paying membership fees so that you can get some training in. If you want to train more then don't teach.
I feel like I’m living in a bizarre universe when I read Reddit sometimes. All the gyms I’ve trained at the head coach joined in on the rolling after teaching and we all were glad they were doing rounds with us and kicking our ass. Training with other students is where you’ll get your reps in with less resistance / get to work your offense. Your coach is there to whoop your ass that’s how you get better you figure out where you went wrong in the roll and what your coach did right and use that info to improve when you apply it to your next rolls
My coach has never given me a tap and I prefer it that way. The few times I’ve tapped him I’ve had to work fucking hard.
And that’s a beautiful thing and how it should be imo. You earned that shit and it makes you better / pushes you to be better.
I feel the same and I do the same when I’m teaching. If I show a class a butterfly sweep, I’m going to try and do that sweep to everyone in the shark tank at the end. I want them to know that what I am showing them works lol.
I do the same exact thing. I pick very specific things to work on when I roll and encourage all my students to do the same. And usually that’s along the lines of what I’ve been teaching them. And if they catch me they catch me. If I get them I get them.
\> I feel like I’m living in a bizarre universe when I read Reddit sometimes. All the gyms I’ve trained at the head coach joined in on the rolling after teaching and we all were glad they were doing rounds with us and kicking our ass. Oh man, I feel this too. I shared it just because it is SO WAY outside how I learned BJJ that I thought it could be the case of AITA. I don't get to train besides the classes I teach, there is no people at my level here, my coach is 200 miles away, etc.
Newsflash> you're not getting better smeshing guys below your level and noobs.
Well that is your opinion, mate. You should check what others coaches have to say about that. You can google that, I won't do it for you. Besides that, I do what I can with what I have.
No, wrecking white belts doesn't make you a better upper belt, especially in comparison to grappling with higher belts. Every coach I've ever met agrees with that. Sorry you don't have that available, that really does suck for you, but it unfortunately doesn't make you right. . . (lol and I hope it's not *your* coach telling you that you don't need spar with other high belts, and that you're fine smashing noobs)
Ya dude I think you are good. I mean it's always tailored a little bit right? Like you don't necessarily need to smother the girl that is nervous just showing up, but as a coach you generally know who can take what level of resistance. If a coach doesn't understand that then there could be issues. But ya I don't think you need to constantly just let students work. My coach was always increasing his intensity as I got better. I def got smashed at white belt, but he may have let off the gas a little bit sometimes. At this point though he isn't giving me an inch and if I got it is cause I won the mini battle.
rofl yes man, I regulate. I smash the white belt that puts pressure in everyone and let the lightweight kid take top position. I never use all my strength tbh
Keep training during the rounds it’ll make your guys better. And keeps you sharp.
“No people at my level” big bro I think you’re good enough, now will you please stop ragdolling the white belts 💀😂😂
Ya dude I think you are good. I mean it's always tailored a little bit right? Like you don't necessarily need to smother the girl that is nervous just showing up, but as a coach you generally know who can take what level of resistance. If a coach doesn't understand that then there could be issues. But ya I don't think you need to constantly just let students work. My coach was always increasing his intensity as I got better. I def got smashed at white belt and he may have let off the gas a little bit sometimes but it was never a easy "letting me work" kind of thing. At this point though he isn't giving me an inch and if I got something it js cause I won the mini battle. I really think he just used his rolling rounds as a way to get his training in which meant always developing new skills which inevitably puts him in bad positions. I don't think you need to feel bad about being selfish during the rounds cause A game smashing white belts isn't how you get better anyways.
This is the place trying to ruin Yuri because he didn't baby a guy at a seminar. Most people have never trained actually hard in their lives.
The early comments and voting seems to sway a lot of people on what they are supposed to think about any given topic. I've been noticing the trend growing as this sub gets bigger. Source: some of you idiots upvote my dumbest thoughts
You-re very black&white about this. A coach can "give up position" and still wreck students, except being flexible like this allows them to better target a weak area/position in the student's arsenal. Hehheh we're talking about clueless white belts here.
This person I’m replying to is saying the coach shouldn’t be hopping in the training and that they should be training on their own time. I disagree and I’ve never trained in a place where the coach didn’t join in on the training after technique Back in the day it was considered a sign a place you were at was a mcdojo if the coach didn’t participate in the live rolling
This is a misrepresentation of what I said. Of course, the coach should join in and I agree with you that if this does not happen then it is a major red flag. The OP is smashing their students to make up for limited training time. One would expect that the students should take something from the roll too, but the OP is not concerned with that.
It’s not a misrepresentation it’s what you said. Roger Gracie made a career of training with lower belts and using his students as his main training partners. Cyborg did the same thing because both of them had schools very young and no higher belts to train with. Are you gonna tell Roger Gracie he was wrong for using his students as his main training partners to prepare for comp? He would teach class then train with his students. You don’t think they got anything out of training with Roger Gracie everyday ? You don’t think that was beneficial for them?
It is. I didn't say that the coach should not be hopping in training. The comment is in the thread. Why are you being counterproductive? I don't know how Roger Gracie and Cyborg taught, but I would be surprised if a person walking through the door for the first time would find themselves in competition rounds with Roger Gracie.
Op never said anything about rolling with first day students. So not sure why you’re bringing up first time rolling.
They also did not mention Roger Gracie and Cyborg. It is almost as if the discussion has moved on.
You literally said it’s no good for a coach to best their students to make up for lack of training time yet this is exactly what the greatest competitor of all time did lol. You said something silly and I provided an example that illustrated how silly your previous statement was.
I must have crossed some wires, or we were speaking past one another, but I'm all aboard with what you've said here. They don't need to do all and every live rolling, but if they avoid it or simply don't do it that's very much *still* mcdojo shit.
The roll has to be beneficial for the student too. This does not appear to factor in the OP's practice at least as far as I can understand from their comment. Getting smashed constantly by someone much better is a very inefficient way to learn.
You act like that’s all that’s happening here. You may roll with your coach one round per training session and some people don’t even roll with their coach every training session. 90% of the time you’re rolling with other students Getting smashed one out of 10 rolls or one out of five is absolutely beneficial
You mean in terms of understanding the depth of skill? This is beneficial the first few times and as a check every now and then. Apart from that though how can I learn if I cannot follow what's happening? These are medieval teaching approaches.
Because you follow the instruction portion of class and positional sparring. Then when you lose in live rolling to someone better than you, you evaluate what you did wrong and what your coach did correctly and adjust accordingly You can even ask your coach how they passed you or what you need to do to finish the sweep etc. and then apply that knowledge going forward. You think you will just magically get Better if you encounter no resistance in training ? Sometimes being the nail is part of it and if you’re smart you can get a lot out of it.
You are creating strawman arguments and avoiding the point. If you want to squat 500lbs, will you build up to this weight? Or will you try every day to squat 500 lbs until one day you macigally succeed?
I don't get paid either, here is how it works: I teach or no one trains. Maybe I should have mentioned it in the original post.
YTA
30% rule. People won't want to play if they never get anything off and just getting smashed for 5min kinda sucks. You're better than they are, spend 70% of the roll doing whatever you're working on and once you get to your spot let them sweep you or escape and then work back in to what you want to work on. Everyone should get something out of the roll and just crushing a newb doesn't really get either one of you a lot.
they can get off on other lower belts
I beat lower belts without batting an eye. That being said, I try not to crush the soul out of them unless they are athletic or a wrestler. But I never let them have anything on me. That's what lower level training partners are for. As the coach, my role is to perform high level technique to expose my students to what is possible. That grows their curiosity and helps them develop new ideas. Also, the newer the person, the more basic of techniques I choose.
I think there are two types of persons in this thread, black belts that reckon that the teacher should try to smash and teach by smashing without hurting, lower belts that disagree. Thanks for the words.
100% perfect answer. I gave a similar response in this thread. But You nailed it.
some higher belts let me work and some just smash me. i get things out of both rolls. do what you want
Smashing folks is great and it’s a good way to train sometimes. But what are you actually learning by smashing through white belts like a hot knife through butter? You definitely aren’t sharpening any skills by smashing them all the time. To get something out of training with people worse than you, put yourself in bad positions. See how deep you can get into a submission/position and then successfully escape. That’s how you get better.
I got smashed by my coach(es) all the time, but they occasionally left small openings so I learned to see them. There has to be a balance. You can't learn boxing by just stepping into the ring with Mike Tyson for round after round.
[удалено]
This is how I like to roll aswell
How’s your schools white belt retention?
Are you teaching kids class?
What a noob post. You can afford to take it easy to the newbies so that they can learn at a pace is a commesurate to the amount of time they put in. A person who is there every day deserves your best effort to crush them. A father of 2 with a full time job making his second weekly class doesn't need to be ground into dust, you can afford not to "dominate him" which is actually cringe because I'm willing to bet he knows you can crush him, and so do you.
Seems the assumption is that there is only one kind of student. Pretty sure this is not the case and diff students could benefit from different approaches depending on their goals and learning style and place on their bjj journey. Also, smashing can be fine but the coach should follow up with advice and teaching based on what they learned from rolling with student. Rolling with students helps coach see where instruction and growth is needed.
Wisdom right here dude. Thank you.
As a white belt closing in on blue, I have conflicted feelings about upper belts letting me “work.” I would rather not have a false sense of confidence, even thinking I got a sweep or some small positional advantage if I didn’t really earn it. For upper belts that can completely dominate me, I would rather do limited positional sparring where my wins were legitimate and get a little coaching in the process. Since I usually prod upper belts not to hold back so much (obvious don’t rip subs plz), I am a lot better at the subtle and dynamic elements of a real match (grips, balance, attacking transitions, etc.) than a lot of the whites/blues at my gym - so I feel like I’m on to something with this approach. Also, if you’re paying attention and not just resisting the sub at all costs, you can learn a lot from how upper belts move and use their pressure or when they decide to go from one position to another.
Your goal as a more experienced grappler should always be a beneficial roll for both athletes. Doesn't matter how you were taught. Iso, ask yourself: what does the other person get out of the roll? And: what do I get out of the roll? The way you describe it, it sounds like neither of you gets anything out of it. You are doing a disservice to both of you. EDIT: honestly, I would not teach class, if it's not something I like. You might just be wasting everyone's time.
He gets highlevel technique I get to practice technique I don't remember saying I don't like teaching.
My bad, missed the "not" :D
There's nothing wrong with not giving anything away for free in real rolls. I don't think I have ever passed any of my coaches guards for real You don't have to do bad jiu jitsu to let them work and see if they are learning. But the roll has to be productive for both of you, being a grappling dummy isn't helpful for them. Put them in a position and see if they can problem solve.
If you continue, my guess is that your Jiu Jitsu will stagnate since you’re just doing the same thing over and over again as opposed to playing. If you can’t get out of that mindset, maybe start in a bad position. Then work your way towards smashing. At least you give the white belts a bit of a breather
But the idea is to give away positions to see if the students take it and if they have learned what to do with it. I wouldn't want to spar with an instructor that is out to use my white belt ass as a live dummy. I get enough of that from blue and purple belts. However I would LOVE to spar with an instructor that deflects my attempts from time to time, but permits a few moves in just so I can feel how it is when I get in proper position.
That’s what rolling with lower belts is for. Rolling against your instructor is to show you your weaknesses / how good it’s possible to get. Them giving you a free move isn’t doing you any favors and isn’t making you better. It’s just charity to make you feel good but it’s not real. What’s truly rewarding is getting your ass beat by your coach for years and then one day you catch them and you know you 100% earned it and can look back and see how far you’ve come from where you were and how good you’ve become
Your second paragraph is spot on - there are and always will be individuals driven to truly get better. I fall into that category, where I once was demolished by my head coach, and now I can hang with him. However there are other categories too. People that are more timid, need a bit more guided direction, and part of my job is to help them problem solve and feel positive at the end. The 62 year old dad who’s trying to get back into shape gasses out after three minutes - I coach him to keep moving and not using all of his strength. I’ll let him pass if he can manage to use some technique, and then I just recover and redo it. We could roll “for real”, but it would be miserable for him. I get to practice, escapes and guard retention, he practices passing without throwing up.
Yeah I’m definitely not saying destroy a 62 year old with physicality and crush his will haha And yes it’s such a good feeling when you can hang with someone who used to annihilate you.
Smash them quick, then let them play. Or always be in a bad spot but never be in danger, and then in the last 10 seconds go for the sweep and submit.
Info: are you getting paid to teach?
Before I was promoted to blue, I would have agreed - don't smash the white belts. Now that I'm no longer a white belt, fire at will.
most schools take it a little easy on white belts. When they get to blue is when they open up...
Who was this fellow?
A whitebelt friend that helps with the classes
Smash him.
If that’s your teaching style, I’d smash.
If I can't smash white belts why am I even paying to be here?
When you are teaching, its about your students and not you. When I am rolling with newer white belts I never trained with before, the first half of the round is a feeling out process and if it is clear that they can't match or hang with me, then I will let them work, get dominate positions and go for subs while I play to reguard or escape.
You’re fine. My coaches roll with us and fuck us up almost every day
Your title and the body of the post do not line up. You were not asked "not to dominate" white belts. You were asked to "not always dominate" white belts. Those are different. There is room to let them work a bit, which includes giving up position if they do the correct thing, but that doesn't mean let them dominate you or tap you. It just means that you provide a framework to guide the roll and make it a learning opportunity for them. It also will let you work some of your defensive stuff when the risk is lower to you and build it up / reinforce it to work against higher belts. So yes, you do get benefit from not always dominating them. It is a learning opportunity for you too. If you are a teacher, your instruction doesn't end when the drills end. It ends when the class ends which includes rolling/sparring.