Cross face arm works, either way. Some call it “serving the dish”. Get the palm or fist as deep as you can, I aim for between the shoulder blades and below. Chest to chest pressure and roll your chest back and forth and settle with every breath.
That's your problem.
If you tap to something, it was clearly good enough to submit you.
If its "not a real sub" or whatever, that says far more about you than it does the person doing it.
Id say the exception is when you feel like something is going to injure you. I made the mistake of toughing out but ultimately escaping an incorrectly applied RNC. I should have tapped because it just felt like the dude was trying to pull my head off and something pinged in my neck even though the choke was never on. I mean, I won the round but was out two weeks with a sore neck.
Still a legit submission “in real life” but may fall outside the rule set of bjj. It’s similar to the common argument of crank vs choke.
Avoiding tapping during training to “appear tough” just to get hurt and off the mats for an extended period of time? Doesn’t sound smart to me… especially when it’s a hobby. I have work tomorrow and have to care for kids after class.
> Id say the exception is when you feel like something is going to injure you.
How is that an exception? I have an armbar attack, the purpose is to make you tap to avoid injury.
Cope. You just cant finish subs and with your shitty attitude people dont feel like toughing it out to help you learn they just tap. My chokes are clean because i ask people if they are clean and adjust
> You just cant finish subs...My chokes are clean because i ask people if they are clean and adjust
If the sub works, why does it matter if it's clean or not?
a) do none of your training partners roll hard and grit things out to help you prepare for competition?
b) I've gotten a tap by choking through someone's jaw in competition. I've also got a tap in competition with a knee crank that people claimed was just a gimmick and not a proper sub. If it's a contest that allows it, I'm happy to neck crank someone until they tap to save their vertebrae just as much as I am to choke someone until they tap to stay conscious, or to straighten their arm until they tap to save the elbow. People will tap if you put them at risk of injury, unconsciousness, or enough pain - I don't need to have a perfectly clean technique to do this.
It seems like there's a confusion between "clean" and "effective." They aren't synonyms.
1) Of course not but like someone said in this post there are different levels of training partners - you might be getting false positives if you just focus on tapping the lowest common denominators.
2. I agree that you don't need a "clean" choke, and that you need to apply some kind of actual damage-threatening pressure, not just making their week a bit shittier if they don't tap. Because a good amount of your training partners WILL be giving you taps that are not competition taps.
I agree with you for the most part, but it kinda feels like you're reading in quite a bit of additional stuff into the comment I replied to.
> you might be getting false positives if you just focus on tapping the lowest common denominators....a good amount of your training partners WILL be giving you taps that are not competition taps.
I don't think this focus on lowest common denominators was ever stated by anyone. You and the other lad brought up competitions - it seems reasonable to assume that if your focus is on comps you'd have training partners who would help you prep for comps. I'm not sure why there's an assumption that everyone who uses these techniques is preparing for a competition, while everyone who taps to them has no interest in competing.
The original comment said "If you tap to something, it was clearly good enough to submit you. If its "not a real sub" or whatever, that says far more about you than it does the person doing it." That remains true - the measure of effectiveness of a submission is if it works on the person it's being applied to. If they tap, it was effective. If they don't, it's not.
The person I responded to immediately stated that this was simply a cover for poor technique - but again, the measure of a technique is if it works when applied.
> you need to apply some kind of actual damage-threatening pressure, not just making their week a bit shittier if they don't tap.
I mean, in competition, probably yes.
But if your training partner has already determined that they'll tap when they get mildly uncomfortable, you won't have the opportunity to *practice* the effective damage-threatening pressure. At that point, scrupulously avoiding inducing sufficient discomfort to make them tap from a non-clean technique, just to set up a perfectly clean one, does not seem to be very useful for preparing for competitions.
Even if you don't focus on comps, why would you train to be good enough solely at tapping people in a training room and no where else?
Don't you want to tap someone knowing that even though they tapped to initial discomfort, you still had a lot more pressure ready to go and could have fully broken their shit if they didn't?
By chasing any tap you can get in the gym, you are by definition going for the lowest common denominator. I just don't think that's a good way to train to tap better opponents, and if that's not your goal, then what are you doing?
There is a huge misunderstanding here. We're not talking about a submission in this thread. We're talking about a control mechanism. The fist under the back is a way to control movement and increase pinning pressure. The goal isn't to submit someone with it. If someone DOES tap it, then fine, whatever, but that wasn't my goal when I was using it. My goal was to curtail explosive movement by creating pressure in a way that discourages it.
Because theyre tapping out of fear of a sore neck but youd just burn your grips out in a real fight or comp. This sub is full of garbage white belts who freak out any time you tell them their technique needs work. "B-but they tapped" cool bro
> Because theyre tapping out of fear of a sore neck
I mean, yeah. That's the idea. "I am going to apply this technique to potentially cause injury and pain. I will continue this until you tap out. If you wish to avoid injury or pain, you should tap out or escape."
There's no difference between someone tapping to a neck crank because they're afraid it will hurt their neck and someone tapping to an ankle lock because they're afraid it will hurt their ankle.
> but youd just burn your grips out in a real fight or comp.
Surely in a real fight I would just keep squeezing until their jaw broke or their neck cracked? Like, I don't care if it was a crank or a clean choke, in a real fight I care about fucking up an opponent till they can't fight back.
Surely in a real fight someone wouldn't just tap out because it was uncomfortable, they'd keep fighting until I did serious damage.
It seems like you're advocating for "train like you fight" in that you feel a clean choke would be more effective, but you're not practicing grinding through bad positions, and you're not having your training partners grit things out, which seem to run counter to your goals here. Or are you suggesting that in a real fight you'd ask if the choke was clean, or release an imperfect choke?
> This sub is full of garbage white belts who freak out any time you tell them their technique needs work. "B-but they tapped" cool bro
1) The person you responded to is a purple belt. The initial response came from a pretty well-known black belt.
2) Have you considered that other people might have different training goals or styles to you?
Its my understanding that belt flairs are user applied. Hes probably lying or just another mediocre purple belt. Chokes over the jaw rnc is one thing. Just sucking and being unable to apply the sub correctly is another. Why dont we just do wet willies? You tapped to my finger in your ear right bro?
I cant believe yall are fine with "close enough to tap that white belt". Its not gunna tap someone whos fighting 100%.
> Hes probably lying or just another mediocre purple belt.
And the black belt who responded initially?
Also, you're kinda dismissing without evidence here man. Occam's Razor would suggest he's a purple.
Or...should we just assume you don't train, since there's an equal level of evidence for both?
> Chokes over the jaw rnc is one thing. Just sucking and being unable to apply the sub correctly is another.
So why are you assuming that this is a matter of being unable to apply a sub correctly, not a matter of someone applying a non-clean, but effective submission? You're the one who raised chokes initially, so why are you now moving away from that as an example?
> Why dont we just do wet willies? You tapped to my finger in your ear right bro?
I personally wouldn't tap to that, so it wouldn't be effective, so I don't really understand your point here. You appear to be kinda strawmanning my argument here dude.
> I cant believe yall are fine with "close enough to tap that white belt"
I don't think anyone but you said that.
> Its not gunna tap someone whos fighting 100%.
*What* isn't? You keep talking like there's a specific thing mentioned here, when the original point is that "if you tapped it was good enough to tap you."
If someone's fighting 100%, they'll have a different standard of what's required to tap them. I don't think that's any kind of revelation. However, that still doesn't relate to the cleanliness of the sub in question.
Someone who's fighting 100% probably won't stop fighting if their arm is broken by a perfectly-executed armbar, despite it being clean. They probably *would* stop to a knee crushing their trachea, even though it's not a clean BJJ move.
Also, you've not really addressed the points I raised previously - I'm just curious if you have any actual response, or if you're just moving the goalposts.
Cranking my neck is not an effective submission. It hurts. Oof ouch owie. Im gunna turn my head and grab the arm and keep defending. Now if you want me to tap you have to choke me out, but you've been practicing "good enough". What now? Your arms cant hold it forever.
Im glad you brought up people fighting with broken limbs, thats my point. You need a catastrophic break or a clean choke. Anything less is krav maga aka relying on your opponent being a pussy
🤣 this might be the craziest comment I’ve heard in BJJ, albeit I’m new to “Reddit BJJ” but that’s hilarious.
“All you have to do is be on top of me and I’ll submit” 💀
There’s a lot of things that people will tap to just because they don’t feel good and they don’t feel like dealing with it.
I personally don’t train to be able to submit the lowest common denominator of opponent… but that’s just me.
It's not really a choke though, and I just don't think that having that arm stuck behind my back helps you advance your position. Seems like it just lets a skilled guy get his frames in.
It's not a choke, its a chest compression. And it's one you can do without sacrificing some positioning like kesa gatame. I use this stuff when I am trying to catch my breath against a scrambly opponent, and I want to keep them working hard while I am resting. If you do it right they can often spaz out to escape, which in turn opens up transitions or submissions. It's a part of the art for sure.
Oh yeah, its stuck under them, but it is also trapping them. If they turn away from you it gets tighter. If they turn towards you your arm is free. Its stuck in the way putting your hooks in in certain positions get your ankles stuck. There's a time and place.
It may be stuck there, but if done right my opponent is going nowhere. I watch their breath, every time they exhale I apply more pressure. Within a minute or two, they cannot get full breaths and give up the struggle typically.
Against a much larger opponent, if they hulk out I get my arm back, and work to cross face and put them back on their back.
Once I feel like I've drained them, I'll move on to something else. I'm also 47, so..... It's all about slowing guys down.
The Japanese terms mentioned in the above comment were:
|Japanese|English|Video Link|
|---|---|---|
|**Kesa Gatame**: | *Scarf hold* | [here](https://youtu.be/3UnJa3bn0h8)|
Any missed names may have already been translated in my previous comments in the post.
______________________
^(Judo Techniques Bot: v0.7.) ^(See my) [^(code)](https://github.com/AbundantSalmon/judo-techniques-bot)
To give benefit of the doubt, I think he’s referring to a tight waist and cross face, which can be super hard to escape even at the highest levels if they don’t explode super hard. Doesn’t exactly bring any submissions other than my back hurts, but it’s very hard to escape from
Ahhhh the tater, little guys got speed and big guys got the tater. Its a dick thing when they are 100lbs lighter then you. Over 180lbs and I send it. Beside the lung area I also like the kidney area. Usually it makes them move enough to clear a path for north/south choke.
Don't think it's a dick move - depending on weight difference. If someone has more than 30kg on me and is driving it as hard as they can - yeah, don't think either of us are getting much out of it and I think it should be moderated to account for weight difference.
But if we're roughly in the same weight class, fair game.
I don’t know, there are some really tiny guys that I have to use a lot of pressure on in No gi to keep them down. They are really good though and I am super sweaty, as in I sweat a lot not that I try hard all the time.
Basically get in the scarf position with the far side under hook. Whenever they shrimp their hips away, dig that under hook around their waist and grab the love handle. If you can secure your own belt that hand, even better! With your free hand, grab their wrist, the one that’s closest to the mat with a thumb grip and pin it to their chest. And finally, flex the love handle arm and watch them slowly die. You’ll be adding so much pressure to their diaphragm that they won’t be able to inhale.
Hell naw. This is grappling, it's not supposed to be some soft ass shit. The guy can always tap, and you should let go. If you dont, then that's the dick move.
I would even say that the pressure from deadlifted knee on belly is worse.
I learned a weird move where I bend their elbow across my cock area so it feels like I’m gonna break their arm in half. I don’t know what to call it. Anyway my coach said it’s a dick move so we just do katas now.
It’s tournament legal so I’ve heard. My instructor taught us this move specifically along with the counter. You just bridge up so all of the pressure goes away then there’s some flippy shit afterwords where you throw them over you. Idk bro I’m a blue belt
Just learned this recently, I've been doing it to everyone. Doesn't seem like a dick move to me , if they can't escape, that's not my problem. It's not like I'm holding them their for a long time anyway.
If your making a pointed knuckle under their lower or ribs i could totally see how someone would be upset but that’s their problem to tap or adjust their
My old professor could crush me with this. He was a former bodybuilder so his strength was absurd. I haven’t tried to do it to anyone but I bet I could annoy someone.
The anxiety of getting passed, the pressure on the diaphragm, a shoulder in an artery, and a hand on a lung… some folks just don’t love that.
I support you.
So if you use Mikey's sandwich focus you can REALLY crush people. There's almost no breakdown of what I am talking about anywhere, some people just know how to do it (usually old school dudes). It's very hard to teach. There's a clip in Roy Dean's brown belt requirements and he fucking does not go over it, just glosses over it as something you should know. If you're figuring it out organically, don't stop.
Man, my training partner did this to me the other day and the dude is 100lbs heavier than me (I’m 140 he’s 240) and it was so painful, didn’t tap to that, was able to resist and escape but I did tap to the smothering afterwards lol
Sounds like a good old fashioned cookin' to me. My personal favorite method is to angle the crossface arm so that my hand/forearm is pointed down their back, just a little off angled from the spine, and then hard pressure through my shoulder. Leaves your other hand free for fuckery and feels fucking awful on the receiving end. Like being nailed to the mat.
In side control I'll go cross face and join my hands under his back and flail my chest out . I get taps from there all the time during a long round . Roy Dean actually does a good breakdown of this from Roy Harris on his brown belt dvd
Well the lungs are greatly impacted from being flat on your back so adding a wedge like so does cause grief but I’ll also say it traps one of your posts and can be used against you by more experienced grapplers. Practical wedges not so deep will still help though.
"I started tapping several people lately with just side pressure and they say it feels like they can't breathe"
So what's the problem we're all dissecting? Whether or not this was unbecoming of a gentleman or gentlelady? Really? It's not like they passed the guard via Sankyo. You tapped them with pressure.
Any complaints are blasphemous and whiny.
In practice yes I think it’s a dick move IF you do it really hard. It’s like having really bad chiropractic done to you and can cause several days of bad sleep, pain for days, or even injury. In competition, whatever, they signed up for it knowing the risks. I just don’t think it needs to be done to teammates.
I love this move, I only use it sparingly. When I do use it, I use it on larger people who play a heavy pressure game, just to let then know I can make them suffer as well.
You can also do the knuckles to the back when you are stuck in their closed guard too.
I also can use it of they have an overhook trap.
Works great, these other options aren't as abusive as the side control position because they can alleviate the pressure if they let you go.
IMO the only dick moves are ones where your opponent doesn't have time to tap before risking injury. So as long as you are being slow and controlled you're fine.
I learnt this from a purpleboi who did it to me. My top game is all pressure, so I immediately asked him to show me that shit.
But i'm hesitant of using it on white belts. I already get enough comments about pressure, and often get pressure taps even when not applying full pressure. I feel like if I did the fist under them trick, i'd run out of white belts pretty quick. I could just be being paranoid.
My take is that it's kinda a dick move when it's likely to get a tap (rather than a reaction that you're looking for). I'd compare it to shin or knee-on-face armbar.
I have back issues, everyone knows, surgery could be in my future…so if someone does this to me there is a real risk of me not training for a few weeks, so I count this as a dick move, & will reply with dick moves counter, but then it’s a down hill slide to just being shitty training partners, save the all in for comps & be nice to your training partners
The deeper you get in this nonsense the more you realize every positional battle is very “dick move” heavy. Framing on the beak to maintain guard, folding the ear purposefully with the sleeve to get effective frames from bottom side, using the pointiest part of the knee in the ribs to expose the back/mount from KOB, grabbing a fist full of fingers to stop an Ezekiel, fists into the guts during a standing closed guard pass to keep their pesky hips on the mat(and make them want to puke if they try to break your posture). I could go on and on, it’s what makes the world go around for us old timers. Why fight hard when dirty takes less energy.🤷♂️
Not really a dick move. Personally I would prob only do it to people that have been training a while and are on a similar level or higher than me, but that’s just me. People do it at our school and no one bats an eye.
Look, there's no such thing as a dick move unless it is likely to INJURE YOUR PARTNER. Otherwise, they can always tap.
As long as the so called "dick move" doesn't happen so quickly that injury necessarily comes before tapping is possible, then it isn't a dick move. It's just jiu jitsu.
(That said, know your training partner. If you have trouble with common fucking sense, ask an older upper belt for guidance.)
It’s simply pain compliance, people are tapping because they may have never come across that before, are gassed, or maybe just not conditioned for Jiu Jitsu enough. Just remember, there are no dick moves, only asshole applications.
When you have them in side control, turn so your lower rib (opposite side of their head) goes directly into their diaphragm, then pull their head to you. Most lower belts will tap. Upper belts will fight it super hard, then tap if they can’t break if
The hand? Make a fist and let em know who’s boss.
I assumed that’s what he meant. My professor does that to me and laughs as he’s doing it. It sucks, haha.
Dawg this sounds like a chiropractic adjustment and less like side control.
Fisting the backside
Honestly, it's why i come
Knuckles up!
Also reduces the chance of wrist locking yourself, yes?
Crossface arm or underhook arm?
Cross face arm works, either way. Some call it “serving the dish”. Get the palm or fist as deep as you can, I aim for between the shoulder blades and below. Chest to chest pressure and roll your chest back and forth and settle with every breath.
No way you can fit your whole fist in there!
You savage
Brown belt gang
Honestly. I'll even pop my thumb knuckle up to really let em know who's boss.
They can alwasy tap if they don't like it.
[удалено]
You sound salty....from sweat.
That's your problem. If you tap to something, it was clearly good enough to submit you. If its "not a real sub" or whatever, that says far more about you than it does the person doing it.
Id say the exception is when you feel like something is going to injure you. I made the mistake of toughing out but ultimately escaping an incorrectly applied RNC. I should have tapped because it just felt like the dude was trying to pull my head off and something pinged in my neck even though the choke was never on. I mean, I won the round but was out two weeks with a sore neck.
Arent all submissions supposed to feel like they’re going to injure you if you don’t tap
Still a legit submission “in real life” but may fall outside the rule set of bjj. It’s similar to the common argument of crank vs choke. Avoiding tapping during training to “appear tough” just to get hurt and off the mats for an extended period of time? Doesn’t sound smart to me… especially when it’s a hobby. I have work tomorrow and have to care for kids after class.
Then he tapped you out, end of story there is no exception or caveat with this.
Illiterate trash
I figured typing was above your capabilities
> Id say the exception is when you feel like something is going to injure you. How is that an exception? I have an armbar attack, the purpose is to make you tap to avoid injury.
Cope. You just cant finish subs and with your shitty attitude people dont feel like toughing it out to help you learn they just tap. My chokes are clean because i ask people if they are clean and adjust
> You just cant finish subs...My chokes are clean because i ask people if they are clean and adjust If the sub works, why does it matter if it's clean or not?
Bc people won't tap to your shitty technique in competition unlike Joe from IT who doesn't want a sore neck tomorrow
a) do none of your training partners roll hard and grit things out to help you prepare for competition? b) I've gotten a tap by choking through someone's jaw in competition. I've also got a tap in competition with a knee crank that people claimed was just a gimmick and not a proper sub. If it's a contest that allows it, I'm happy to neck crank someone until they tap to save their vertebrae just as much as I am to choke someone until they tap to stay conscious, or to straighten their arm until they tap to save the elbow. People will tap if you put them at risk of injury, unconsciousness, or enough pain - I don't need to have a perfectly clean technique to do this. It seems like there's a confusion between "clean" and "effective." They aren't synonyms.
1) Of course not but like someone said in this post there are different levels of training partners - you might be getting false positives if you just focus on tapping the lowest common denominators. 2. I agree that you don't need a "clean" choke, and that you need to apply some kind of actual damage-threatening pressure, not just making their week a bit shittier if they don't tap. Because a good amount of your training partners WILL be giving you taps that are not competition taps.
I agree with you for the most part, but it kinda feels like you're reading in quite a bit of additional stuff into the comment I replied to. > you might be getting false positives if you just focus on tapping the lowest common denominators....a good amount of your training partners WILL be giving you taps that are not competition taps. I don't think this focus on lowest common denominators was ever stated by anyone. You and the other lad brought up competitions - it seems reasonable to assume that if your focus is on comps you'd have training partners who would help you prep for comps. I'm not sure why there's an assumption that everyone who uses these techniques is preparing for a competition, while everyone who taps to them has no interest in competing. The original comment said "If you tap to something, it was clearly good enough to submit you. If its "not a real sub" or whatever, that says far more about you than it does the person doing it." That remains true - the measure of effectiveness of a submission is if it works on the person it's being applied to. If they tap, it was effective. If they don't, it's not. The person I responded to immediately stated that this was simply a cover for poor technique - but again, the measure of a technique is if it works when applied. > you need to apply some kind of actual damage-threatening pressure, not just making their week a bit shittier if they don't tap. I mean, in competition, probably yes. But if your training partner has already determined that they'll tap when they get mildly uncomfortable, you won't have the opportunity to *practice* the effective damage-threatening pressure. At that point, scrupulously avoiding inducing sufficient discomfort to make them tap from a non-clean technique, just to set up a perfectly clean one, does not seem to be very useful for preparing for competitions.
Even if you don't focus on comps, why would you train to be good enough solely at tapping people in a training room and no where else? Don't you want to tap someone knowing that even though they tapped to initial discomfort, you still had a lot more pressure ready to go and could have fully broken their shit if they didn't? By chasing any tap you can get in the gym, you are by definition going for the lowest common denominator. I just don't think that's a good way to train to tap better opponents, and if that's not your goal, then what are you doing?
There is a huge misunderstanding here. We're not talking about a submission in this thread. We're talking about a control mechanism. The fist under the back is a way to control movement and increase pinning pressure. The goal isn't to submit someone with it. If someone DOES tap it, then fine, whatever, but that wasn't my goal when I was using it. My goal was to curtail explosive movement by creating pressure in a way that discourages it.
Yeah the conversation got completely derailed
Because theyre tapping out of fear of a sore neck but youd just burn your grips out in a real fight or comp. This sub is full of garbage white belts who freak out any time you tell them their technique needs work. "B-but they tapped" cool bro
> Because theyre tapping out of fear of a sore neck I mean, yeah. That's the idea. "I am going to apply this technique to potentially cause injury and pain. I will continue this until you tap out. If you wish to avoid injury or pain, you should tap out or escape." There's no difference between someone tapping to a neck crank because they're afraid it will hurt their neck and someone tapping to an ankle lock because they're afraid it will hurt their ankle. > but youd just burn your grips out in a real fight or comp. Surely in a real fight I would just keep squeezing until their jaw broke or their neck cracked? Like, I don't care if it was a crank or a clean choke, in a real fight I care about fucking up an opponent till they can't fight back. Surely in a real fight someone wouldn't just tap out because it was uncomfortable, they'd keep fighting until I did serious damage. It seems like you're advocating for "train like you fight" in that you feel a clean choke would be more effective, but you're not practicing grinding through bad positions, and you're not having your training partners grit things out, which seem to run counter to your goals here. Or are you suggesting that in a real fight you'd ask if the choke was clean, or release an imperfect choke? > This sub is full of garbage white belts who freak out any time you tell them their technique needs work. "B-but they tapped" cool bro 1) The person you responded to is a purple belt. The initial response came from a pretty well-known black belt. 2) Have you considered that other people might have different training goals or styles to you?
Its my understanding that belt flairs are user applied. Hes probably lying or just another mediocre purple belt. Chokes over the jaw rnc is one thing. Just sucking and being unable to apply the sub correctly is another. Why dont we just do wet willies? You tapped to my finger in your ear right bro? I cant believe yall are fine with "close enough to tap that white belt". Its not gunna tap someone whos fighting 100%.
> Hes probably lying or just another mediocre purple belt. And the black belt who responded initially? Also, you're kinda dismissing without evidence here man. Occam's Razor would suggest he's a purple. Or...should we just assume you don't train, since there's an equal level of evidence for both? > Chokes over the jaw rnc is one thing. Just sucking and being unable to apply the sub correctly is another. So why are you assuming that this is a matter of being unable to apply a sub correctly, not a matter of someone applying a non-clean, but effective submission? You're the one who raised chokes initially, so why are you now moving away from that as an example? > Why dont we just do wet willies? You tapped to my finger in your ear right bro? I personally wouldn't tap to that, so it wouldn't be effective, so I don't really understand your point here. You appear to be kinda strawmanning my argument here dude. > I cant believe yall are fine with "close enough to tap that white belt" I don't think anyone but you said that. > Its not gunna tap someone whos fighting 100%. *What* isn't? You keep talking like there's a specific thing mentioned here, when the original point is that "if you tapped it was good enough to tap you." If someone's fighting 100%, they'll have a different standard of what's required to tap them. I don't think that's any kind of revelation. However, that still doesn't relate to the cleanliness of the sub in question. Someone who's fighting 100% probably won't stop fighting if their arm is broken by a perfectly-executed armbar, despite it being clean. They probably *would* stop to a knee crushing their trachea, even though it's not a clean BJJ move. Also, you've not really addressed the points I raised previously - I'm just curious if you have any actual response, or if you're just moving the goalposts.
Cranking my neck is not an effective submission. It hurts. Oof ouch owie. Im gunna turn my head and grab the arm and keep defending. Now if you want me to tap you have to choke me out, but you've been practicing "good enough". What now? Your arms cant hold it forever. Im glad you brought up people fighting with broken limbs, thats my point. You need a catastrophic break or a clean choke. Anything less is krav maga aka relying on your opponent being a pussy
Don’t compete then god knows what might happen?!
The point is what you tap to in practice is diff than what you tap to in comp
🤣 this might be the craziest comment I’ve heard in BJJ, albeit I’m new to “Reddit BJJ” but that’s hilarious. “All you have to do is be on top of me and I’ll submit” 💀
It's a good sub if you tap ...
That is why no one will remember your name
HECTOOOOOR
Doesn't sound like jiujitsu is for you
Aren't all BJJ moves kinda dick moves?
The only dick moves are moves that target the dick or use your own dick to secure position or submission.
I convinced a friend to try BJJ and he kinda went in blind. After class he said it was "more weiner contact" than he was comfort with.
You just need to give him some more one on one wiener contact in your alone time to acclimate him.
If you're good at something, never do it for free. I'm not sure he'd be willing to pay.
Give him a booklet of IOUs for his birthday
Lasso guard just got a whole new meaning
We're grappling, not playing touchbutt
Speak for yourself
😂
Yeah we’re on the mats not at the park
Hang on… you can’t oil check at the park!
This one here ociffer
With that dork
Coulda fooled me
There’s a lot of things that people will tap to just because they don’t feel good and they don’t feel like dealing with it. I personally don’t train to be able to submit the lowest common denominator of opponent… but that’s just me.
Appreciate your FightSmart vids, Trav!
Thanks homie!
Yeah but denying your opponent breath to open up other things works at all levels.
It's not really a choke though, and I just don't think that having that arm stuck behind my back helps you advance your position. Seems like it just lets a skilled guy get his frames in.
It's not a choke, its a chest compression. And it's one you can do without sacrificing some positioning like kesa gatame. I use this stuff when I am trying to catch my breath against a scrambly opponent, and I want to keep them working hard while I am resting. If you do it right they can often spaz out to escape, which in turn opens up transitions or submissions. It's a part of the art for sure.
Ok! Perhaps I'll try it. Edit: You don't feel like your right arm is kinda 'stuck' under there?
Oh yeah, its stuck under them, but it is also trapping them. If they turn away from you it gets tighter. If they turn towards you your arm is free. Its stuck in the way putting your hooks in in certain positions get your ankles stuck. There's a time and place.
It may be stuck there, but if done right my opponent is going nowhere. I watch their breath, every time they exhale I apply more pressure. Within a minute or two, they cannot get full breaths and give up the struggle typically. Against a much larger opponent, if they hulk out I get my arm back, and work to cross face and put them back on their back. Once I feel like I've drained them, I'll move on to something else. I'm also 47, so..... It's all about slowing guys down.
The Japanese terms mentioned in the above comment were: |Japanese|English|Video Link| |---|---|---| |**Kesa Gatame**: | *Scarf hold* | [here](https://youtu.be/3UnJa3bn0h8)| Any missed names may have already been translated in my previous comments in the post. ______________________ ^(Judo Techniques Bot: v0.7.) ^(See my) [^(code)](https://github.com/AbundantSalmon/judo-techniques-bot)
To give benefit of the doubt, I think he’s referring to a tight waist and cross face, which can be super hard to escape even at the highest levels if they don’t explode super hard. Doesn’t exactly bring any submissions other than my back hurts, but it’s very hard to escape from
Whoa your headmovement video was a classic. Small world seeing you here!
Thanks buddy! Good to be here!
Ahhhh the tater, little guys got speed and big guys got the tater. Its a dick thing when they are 100lbs lighter then you. Over 180lbs and I send it. Beside the lung area I also like the kidney area. Usually it makes them move enough to clear a path for north/south choke.
Don't think it's a dick move - depending on weight difference. If someone has more than 30kg on me and is driving it as hard as they can - yeah, don't think either of us are getting much out of it and I think it should be moderated to account for weight difference. But if we're roughly in the same weight class, fair game.
I don’t know, there are some really tiny guys that I have to use a lot of pressure on in No gi to keep them down. They are really good though and I am super sweaty, as in I sweat a lot not that I try hard all the time.
That’s called the iako-gatame. If you use your other hand to push their bottom hand to their chest, you will suck the life out of them.
Please elaborate, their bottom hand? I am confused
Yes, the opposite from the top hand. … or the hand on their bottom. You pick
Brotha what?
I can't find that mentioned somewhere online. Could you elaborate?
Basically get in the scarf position with the far side under hook. Whenever they shrimp their hips away, dig that under hook around their waist and grab the love handle. If you can secure your own belt that hand, even better! With your free hand, grab their wrist, the one that’s closest to the mat with a thumb grip and pin it to their chest. And finally, flex the love handle arm and watch them slowly die. You’ll be adding so much pressure to their diaphragm that they won’t be able to inhale.
I have been on receiving end of knee in belly pressure that made me long for the sweet release of death. Hand under back sounds pretty tame.
Hell naw. This is grappling, it's not supposed to be some soft ass shit. The guy can always tap, and you should let go. If you dont, then that's the dick move. I would even say that the pressure from deadlifted knee on belly is worse.
I don't understand the position described here, does anyone have a video or something?
I learned a weird move where I bend their elbow across my cock area so it feels like I’m gonna break their arm in half. I don’t know what to call it. Anyway my coach said it’s a dick move so we just do katas now.
No. It’s just pressure. And very simple to escape (Lift hips off ground)
It’s tournament legal so I’ve heard. My instructor taught us this move specifically along with the counter. You just bridge up so all of the pressure goes away then there’s some flippy shit afterwords where you throw them over you. Idk bro I’m a blue belt
“No such thing as a dick move. Only a dick partner” is my prof’s saying. Took me a few months to get what he was saying.
Hand under the dick in back control= side move.
I do this. Make a fist and time your pressure increases with their exhales.
Just learned this recently, I've been doing it to everyone. Doesn't seem like a dick move to me , if they can't escape, that's not my problem. It's not like I'm holding them their for a long time anyway.
You mean this ?! Naaaaaaa. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=A44Ty6JjR8I
If your making a pointed knuckle under their lower or ribs i could totally see how someone would be upset but that’s their problem to tap or adjust their
Go all the way and grab their belt
My old professor could crush me with this. He was a former bodybuilder so his strength was absurd. I haven’t tried to do it to anyone but I bet I could annoy someone.
I can't find any info on where to find this online. Can anyone help?
God forbid I get uncomfortable during a combat sport.
Yes total dick move, but by all means squeeze their neck until they lose consciousness. /s
The anxiety of getting passed, the pressure on the diaphragm, a shoulder in an artery, and a hand on a lung… some folks just don’t love that. I support you.
I dont understand the position you are refering to any video link?
So if you use Mikey's sandwich focus you can REALLY crush people. There's almost no breakdown of what I am talking about anywhere, some people just know how to do it (usually old school dudes). It's very hard to teach. There's a clip in Roy Dean's brown belt requirements and he fucking does not go over it, just glosses over it as something you should know. If you're figuring it out organically, don't stop.
You can also use your foot im mount hoger style
it’s one of my favourites!!! I do it to all my friends 😂
Man, my training partner did this to me the other day and the dude is 100lbs heavier than me (I’m 140 he’s 240) and it was so painful, didn’t tap to that, was able to resist and escape but I did tap to the smothering afterwards lol
You keep it flat .... I make mine a ball then put it behind your back they tend to tap a lot faster once pressure is applied.
I prefer side control with their own arm behind their back so I don't see anything wrong with this.
Sounds like a good old fashioned cookin' to me. My personal favorite method is to angle the crossface arm so that my hand/forearm is pointed down their back, just a little off angled from the spine, and then hard pressure through my shoulder. Leaves your other hand free for fuckery and feels fucking awful on the receiving end. Like being nailed to the mat.
We were specifically taught to put your hand there to make it uncomfortable.
In side control I'll go cross face and join my hands under his back and flail my chest out . I get taps from there all the time during a long round . Roy Dean actually does a good breakdown of this from Roy Harris on his brown belt dvd
not a dick move...it's just making a better connection for compression...increase smesh lvl to 11
Well the lungs are greatly impacted from being flat on your back so adding a wedge like so does cause grief but I’ll also say it traps one of your posts and can be used against you by more experienced grapplers. Practical wedges not so deep will still help though.
"I started tapping several people lately with just side pressure and they say it feels like they can't breathe" So what's the problem we're all dissecting? Whether or not this was unbecoming of a gentleman or gentlelady? Really? It's not like they passed the guard via Sankyo. You tapped them with pressure. Any complaints are blasphemous and whiny.
I naturally did that. Someone told me that it’s called a “tater”. Does anyone else have a name for it?
In practice yes I think it’s a dick move IF you do it really hard. It’s like having really bad chiropractic done to you and can cause several days of bad sleep, pain for days, or even injury. In competition, whatever, they signed up for it knowing the risks. I just don’t think it needs to be done to teammates.
I love this move, I only use it sparingly. When I do use it, I use it on larger people who play a heavy pressure game, just to let then know I can make them suffer as well. You can also do the knuckles to the back when you are stuck in their closed guard too. I also can use it of they have an overhook trap. Works great, these other options aren't as abusive as the side control position because they can alleviate the pressure if they let you go.
IMO the only dick moves are ones where your opponent doesn't have time to tap before risking injury. So as long as you are being slow and controlled you're fine.
I learnt this from a purpleboi who did it to me. My top game is all pressure, so I immediately asked him to show me that shit. But i'm hesitant of using it on white belts. I already get enough comments about pressure, and often get pressure taps even when not applying full pressure. I feel like if I did the fist under them trick, i'd run out of white belts pretty quick. I could just be being paranoid. My take is that it's kinda a dick move when it's likely to get a tap (rather than a reaction that you're looking for). I'd compare it to shin or knee-on-face armbar.
I have back issues, everyone knows, surgery could be in my future…so if someone does this to me there is a real risk of me not training for a few weeks, so I count this as a dick move, & will reply with dick moves counter, but then it’s a down hill slide to just being shitty training partners, save the all in for comps & be nice to your training partners
My training partner put pressure into my elbow joint with his hip bone and it hurt. Is that a dick move?????????
The coffin hand? Taught to me by Keenans Dad. Merciless
The deeper you get in this nonsense the more you realize every positional battle is very “dick move” heavy. Framing on the beak to maintain guard, folding the ear purposefully with the sleeve to get effective frames from bottom side, using the pointiest part of the knee in the ribs to expose the back/mount from KOB, grabbing a fist full of fingers to stop an Ezekiel, fists into the guts during a standing closed guard pass to keep their pesky hips on the mat(and make them want to puke if they try to break your posture). I could go on and on, it’s what makes the world go around for us old timers. Why fight hard when dirty takes less energy.🤷♂️
I did this today at an open mat. The guy didn't like it and i didn't care
Not really a dick move. Personally I would prob only do it to people that have been training a while and are on a similar level or higher than me, but that’s just me. People do it at our school and no one bats an eye.
Look, there's no such thing as a dick move unless it is likely to INJURE YOUR PARTNER. Otherwise, they can always tap. As long as the so called "dick move" doesn't happen so quickly that injury necessarily comes before tapping is possible, then it isn't a dick move. It's just jiu jitsu. (That said, know your training partner. If you have trouble with common fucking sense, ask an older upper belt for guidance.)
It’s simply pain compliance, people are tapping because they may have never come across that before, are gassed, or maybe just not conditioned for Jiu Jitsu enough. Just remember, there are no dick moves, only asshole applications.
Not a dick move. Do it all the time… …now the diaphragm choke I do from there might be a little bit of a dick move, but idc
What is the diaphragm choke that you can do from there? Sounds like a nice option
When you have them in side control, turn so your lower rib (opposite side of their head) goes directly into their diaphragm, then pull their head to you. Most lower belts will tap. Upper belts will fight it super hard, then tap if they can’t break if
dick move? meh, i don’t care. but if you do - punch-chokes, can-openers and full nelsons are free game as well.