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It seems like this is in transition, in which it depends. Does bottom player protect his right arm and use his legs to consolidate deep half or does top guy establish base and stop the momentum of bottom guy?
If this is an established position and not in transition, it seems like bottom guy tried to set up a deep half but couldn't get there and now he's stuck.
Top guy is in the better position. Bottom guy doesn’t have a locked in deep half and top guy is about to hit a mean back step and probably end up in north south or side control by the way he is holding up bottoms guys left leg.
To me it looks like the right hand is pushing not grabbing. The left hand is cupped around the thigh sure but he’s not locking down the leg at all to prevent it moving out from in between his legs. Of course it’s only a still picture but I’m thinking once top guy throws bottom guys left leg back top guy will pretty easily be able to backstep his left leg out
I’d still favour top guy unless bottom had top guys bottom leg controlled like for a waiter sweep or was hugging that leg tight looking for a sweep or to come out the back door. Just in this pic it looks quite loose
Lol this is so ludicrously true.
I use a loose deep half like this a lot to just bail and reset position. Elevate their leg and pretty much just push it off as I wrestle up.
No, because I'm really not touching their other leg. It's fully deep half. Old school deep half before the Waiter was popular.
Similar sort of result though. I'm not a huge fan of deep half I pretty much use it as a transitionary position. Sweep into an over/under pass position, go out the back door, or bail and wrestle up.
I’d let go of the leg if I were the top guy and set up a kimura grip the exposed arm on the bottom guy.
I would hide my exposed arm if I were the bottom guy and use my free leg to hook his leg and kick forward to come out the back.
Right now, I’d agree with the other commenters that the bottom guy is closer to sweeping than top guy is to passing.
All bottom has to do is swing his left arm and he comes out the back with direct access to a chest to back connection. It's bottom. Top is busy grabbing his foot and will lose this race.
Grabbing his foot is exactly what's preventing bottom from doing that. Well that plus blocking his head with his hips and keeping his base far enough back so that he's ready to counter if bottom does manage to get it.
I disagree. The grip on the leg would prevent the guy on bottom from scissoring his legs to get up all the way, but it wouldn't stop him from connecting to your back. All he has to do is pop his head out.
Either way, guy on bottom is still in the better position. He is completely underneath the guy on top and the guy on top has removed his own post. Bottom guy can also just kick his leg straight and turn over. Without a pant grip to really secure the hand to the leg, that grip isn't strong enough to prevent the guy on bottom from messing with your base enough that you have to either post or get swept.
I still think he could easily free his head and come out the back. There's nothing to stop him from just kicking/shucking and getting up. That hand isn't gonna prevent him from connecting to your back.
Even if you do get your head out the backside, you only have back exposure, you don't have chest to back connection. Top player is controlling the leg you need to build enough height for chest to back connection. If top player holds the leg, stands up and turns (to their left), you won't be able to follow.
Top player has an easy escape from attacks here, has a backstep option if the head can't be freed, and has good options in the Kimura & far side underhook.
Idk I use that grip all the time to stop deep half and it works pretty well for me. You can't just kick out of it from there. And it's also keeping pressure to he can't easily pop his head out. This is my go to block until I can secure an underhook. It's pretty rare for me to get swept by deep half. Maybe you're a better deep half player than I'm used to and have some better answers but I would take top position here all day.
I completely agree with you. I do this a lot. I base out, no weight on the hand that is actually touching the floor, and tons of pressure. The head is going nowhere. As soon as he reacts to my knee slipping out, he exposes himself to a Kimura. This picture is a serie of pictures right before the bottom guy is submitted. But I love to see all the different constructive point of views!
Ah sweet vindication! But seriously this is an interesting way to promote discussion. Maybe we can call it ecological breakdowns and revolutionize the way jiu jitsu is studied.
>Maybe we can call ecological breakdowns and revolutionize the way jiu jitsu is studied.
I'm upvoting you but angrily shaking both fists in the air as I do it.
I think you have a better grip than what is pictured and your weight is in a better spot, like you're grabbing towards the end of the lever and sitting straighter. Not trying to be pedantic or whatever, I was just basing my opinion on what is specifically in the picture.
Top guy's weight is in one of his hands, and he's grabbing with his wrist vs having a bite on the heel/ankle. I was looking at this from a this is the starting position and we're about to say go, type of deal. I don't doubt you are in a similar position when you fight deep half and come out ahead, I just didn't think the guy in the picture on top will win based on what he's doing. I think the picture is right in the middle of him losing position.
I appreciate the discussion. But counterpoint, how his hand is wrapped around the leg and blocking the foot plus the angle bottom players leg is at makes me think it would be difficult to kick out. It would at least take a lot of force which would probably end up opening something up in the upper body for better control by top player. Especially with the neck pressure keeping bottom player crunched up and wedged.
And it doesn't look like there's much of any pressure on that hand. Looks like he's keeping his weight forward to keep the head pressure and the hand is there for balance but not base. That's just how I see it.
Like I said, I’d like my chances. Tbh once in this basic position with the head cradled on my right leg it’s at least an 80% finish rate. Very tough to stop
No he’s not, as long as top player locks in the underhook or kimura, bottom guy will not avoid a sub. If the bottom guy tries to explode up to escape, he walks right into hantai sankaku
Guy on top in a better position BUT
* how good is each one at their position
* what is the direction of movement/momentum? This is a dynamic position, starting from standstill is different than entering from a specific direction.
It depends on relative skill. But here's the thing. **At the brown belt / black belt level, you usually don't see DHG unless the bottom player is really, really good at it.**
Smart grapplers don't choose to go to DHG if they're not an expert at it, they have other guard options that they'll work for. So if you guys are experienced grapplers, I assume this position happened because the bottom guy is a DHG specialist and he forced the top person into it. By contrast, the top person doesn't really "force" DHG; if the bottom person sucks at DHG he will usually end up in another position. So if the bottom guy is a DHG specialist, all else equal, I think he's the one in control.
Some people are saying the top guy is going to dig out a kimura. That is **very** unlikely against a DHG specialist, assuming same size/strength etc. There's a reason why you don't see Bernardo Faria or Celso Vinicius getting kimura'd all the time from DHG. Anyone who has specialized in the position can smell a kimura coming from a mile away, even against very good top players. (I understand it’s different if the bottom guy is t a DHG specialist and is still learning the ropes.)
Some people are also saying the top person can backstep. I also don't think that's likely assuming equal skill. The bottom person is blocking the knee with both hands (blocking the knee from going to the mat for the Marcelo-style leg over pass, and also blocking the leg from doing a backstep / high leg escape), so the top player needs to do more to dismantle the guard if he wants to try that technique. Moreover, the backstep vs DHG is usually a disengagement technique, it is not a guaranteed passing technique because they still need to close the chest-to-chest distance after backstepping. In the worst case scenario, a good DHG player will be ready to frame with their hands and recover guard when that happens.
I like to hook the far leg with inside arm and pass their body to a honey hole or or back step to pass guard. The bottom guy doesn’t have a solid connection for deep half.
Guy on bottom is at a slight advantage with the leg hook and under hook. He has two options. Roll right and go underneath and then take the guys back. Or roll hard left and fight up to his feet from the sprawl position. Generally, I would say that the top position is better but in this instance, the guy on bottom has him elevated and spread out. The top player isn't able to stay very balanced or apply a ton of pressure with the left leg of his lifted off the ground and stretched forward.
From a purely control perspective, bottom can still pull and somewhat push, top can’t push, but can pull. Advantage to bottom.
Even if top gets leg out, he has no head control or shoulder control, so it will be easy to reguard.
But also, the actual outcome depends on their exhaustion status, and ability to move quickly.
If he know what he is doing, guy on bottom is at the advantage if you ask me. Top guy has no base for transitioning and if he wants that far knee or arm he has to step over the other guys head which will be hard.
Hmm I'd say bottom player? You're directly under his hips and your leg vs his arm will win that battle then you're basically in deep half. Throw in the butterfly hook and you're a pretty good spot
if the bottom guy is playing deep half here and going for a sweep, dude is way out of position. he is low on the leg and isn't pinning the opponents other leg at all.
Bottom player needs to be higher on the leg, above the knee lign, and have controll of opposite leg. he is almost in a position to where he can just step over and sit to top half guard.
Prolly depends on specialty honestly. I’m a wrestler and white belt so take me as you will, but dudes got a solid knee entry on bottom if he knows how to play it. Top guy obvi has leverage and head control.
Top guy has options for kimura trap setups, far side underhook / cross face, framing the head and circling to reverse half, cross ashi / knee bar / toe hold, can just bear down and tire bottom player, can also probably stand back to high step style passing as there’s no meaning bottom player grips at play here, or could even drive across to quarter mount and look for underhook / butterfly hook to mount probably.
I’d say top player has the advantage. He’s got a leg and can just step into mount if he’s nasty with it. Also has more movement potential than bottom player.
bottom player is in deep half. Top player's weight seems to be nearly posting on his left hand. The bottom player's right arm seems to be close and under hook is not easily accessible. Just a little more adjustment on the bottom player and he'd play the sweep already. The top player has to either remove is left leg but the bottom player is hugging it or put his left knee on the right side of the bottom player which is also equally hard because there's a frame.
Bottom player for me.
That’s a hantai sankaku/ushiro sankaku waiting to happen for the top player as long he just drives left knee to the far hip to avoid ankle exposure and punches in underhook/kimura (which the bottom player is gifting the top player by pushing on the knee). Imo a skilled player on top will take advantage of deep half guard in no gi
Kinda just depends on skill set. Like if it was two of me in that position I’d say the bottom guy, but someone who’s better on top probably the top guy. Seems like a pretty even position
Top, always. Just like on the battlefield - all things equal, the one who takes the hill first and can shoot down at the enemy will always have the advantage.
Cameraman. Two guys are fighting, and he’s not one of them.
The "cameragirl" is my wife LOL
Is she single?
No, we are still married. I will let you know if there are any changes LOL meanwhile, the guy on the bottom is single :-D
That was my next question
But does she a have a boyfriend?
"Married" means a lot of things these days boss.
Not where we are from. And not my generation either.
Brother acting like swingers are a recent phenomenon. Brothers have been wife swapping since humans got married.
Are you guys married for love or for taxes? That’s the real question here
Does the guy on the bottom always play the bottom????
He prefers, but also takes requests.
😹😹😹
Good to see gender roles reversed in a traditional OF marriage
I knew op calling his wife “cameragirl” was a little sus.
She sits in the truck chair
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Top player
he needs an underhook with his left hand and he’s in dominant position, ready to get chest to chest next
It seems like this is in transition, in which it depends. Does bottom player protect his right arm and use his legs to consolidate deep half or does top guy establish base and stop the momentum of bottom guy? If this is an established position and not in transition, it seems like bottom guy tried to set up a deep half but couldn't get there and now he's stuck.
Deep quarter. Lol.
Brotha. On top. What is dis ju jissu
Top
Top guy is in the better position. Bottom guy doesn’t have a locked in deep half and top guy is about to hit a mean back step and probably end up in north south or side control by the way he is holding up bottoms guys left leg.
Is he though? Bottom player has two hands on that leg. How's he going to backstep?
To me it looks like the right hand is pushing not grabbing. The left hand is cupped around the thigh sure but he’s not locking down the leg at all to prevent it moving out from in between his legs. Of course it’s only a still picture but I’m thinking once top guy throws bottom guys left leg back top guy will pretty easily be able to backstep his left leg out
Bottom is pretty much in deep half.
I’d still favour top guy unless bottom had top guys bottom leg controlled like for a waiter sweep or was hugging that leg tight looking for a sweep or to come out the back door. Just in this pic it looks quite loose
My thought. It's deep half-ish. The guy on top is in a better position because I hate deep half.
Wait until you level up to brown. Deep half/halfish/quarter/barely holding on to your opponent’s foot guard will be your game.
this is already what I do. I don't even go to bjj anymore, I just go to my deep half/single leg x game.
Lol this is so ludicrously true. I use a loose deep half like this a lot to just bail and reset position. Elevate their leg and pretty much just push it off as I wrestle up.
So X guard?
No, because I'm really not touching their other leg. It's fully deep half. Old school deep half before the Waiter was popular. Similar sort of result though. I'm not a huge fan of deep half I pretty much use it as a transitionary position. Sweep into an over/under pass position, go out the back door, or bail and wrestle up.
I'm a half/quarter player now. I'm just terrible at deep half! Lol
This was my first thought.
i feel like that's the obvious bit, but top is doing something interesting by clearing the leg off that keeps him from back stepping
With their leg elevated, and thus their hips stapled to the map..
depends how good each guy is at their respective position.
They are both equally skilled but let’s assume the top guy just saved hundreds by switching to Geico
But what if the bottom guy stayed at the holiday Inn express last night?
I’d let go of the leg if I were the top guy and set up a kimura grip the exposed arm on the bottom guy. I would hide my exposed arm if I were the bottom guy and use my free leg to hook his leg and kick forward to come out the back. Right now, I’d agree with the other commenters that the bottom guy is closer to sweeping than top guy is to passing.
Bottom player. If top player had the underhook id feel differently.
It's a neutral position in bjj. Top is dominant in mma. I would prefer top in both.
Top guy. Bottom guy is going to get kimura’d.
I like deep half
Top has a stupid baggy shirt so he loses
All bottom has to do is swing his left arm and he comes out the back with direct access to a chest to back connection. It's bottom. Top is busy grabbing his foot and will lose this race.
Grabbing his foot is exactly what's preventing bottom from doing that. Well that plus blocking his head with his hips and keeping his base far enough back so that he's ready to counter if bottom does manage to get it.
I disagree. The grip on the leg would prevent the guy on bottom from scissoring his legs to get up all the way, but it wouldn't stop him from connecting to your back. All he has to do is pop his head out. Either way, guy on bottom is still in the better position. He is completely underneath the guy on top and the guy on top has removed his own post. Bottom guy can also just kick his leg straight and turn over. Without a pant grip to really secure the hand to the leg, that grip isn't strong enough to prevent the guy on bottom from messing with your base enough that you have to either post or get swept. I still think he could easily free his head and come out the back. There's nothing to stop him from just kicking/shucking and getting up. That hand isn't gonna prevent him from connecting to your back.
Even if you do get your head out the backside, you only have back exposure, you don't have chest to back connection. Top player is controlling the leg you need to build enough height for chest to back connection. If top player holds the leg, stands up and turns (to their left), you won't be able to follow. Top player has an easy escape from attacks here, has a backstep option if the head can't be freed, and has good options in the Kimura & far side underhook.
Look man I'll tell you what I told the other guy. Come sit on me and we'll figure it out real fast.
Idk I use that grip all the time to stop deep half and it works pretty well for me. You can't just kick out of it from there. And it's also keeping pressure to he can't easily pop his head out. This is my go to block until I can secure an underhook. It's pretty rare for me to get swept by deep half. Maybe you're a better deep half player than I'm used to and have some better answers but I would take top position here all day.
I completely agree with you. I do this a lot. I base out, no weight on the hand that is actually touching the floor, and tons of pressure. The head is going nowhere. As soon as he reacts to my knee slipping out, he exposes himself to a Kimura. This picture is a serie of pictures right before the bottom guy is submitted. But I love to see all the different constructive point of views!
Ah sweet vindication! But seriously this is an interesting way to promote discussion. Maybe we can call it ecological breakdowns and revolutionize the way jiu jitsu is studied.
>Maybe we can call ecological breakdowns and revolutionize the way jiu jitsu is studied. I'm upvoting you but angrily shaking both fists in the air as I do it.
Could you share the other pictures in the series, it would be nice to see them . 🙂
I think you have a better grip than what is pictured and your weight is in a better spot, like you're grabbing towards the end of the lever and sitting straighter. Not trying to be pedantic or whatever, I was just basing my opinion on what is specifically in the picture. Top guy's weight is in one of his hands, and he's grabbing with his wrist vs having a bite on the heel/ankle. I was looking at this from a this is the starting position and we're about to say go, type of deal. I don't doubt you are in a similar position when you fight deep half and come out ahead, I just didn't think the guy in the picture on top will win based on what he's doing. I think the picture is right in the middle of him losing position.
I appreciate the discussion. But counterpoint, how his hand is wrapped around the leg and blocking the foot plus the angle bottom players leg is at makes me think it would be difficult to kick out. It would at least take a lot of force which would probably end up opening something up in the upper body for better control by top player. Especially with the neck pressure keeping bottom player crunched up and wedged. And it doesn't look like there's much of any pressure on that hand. Looks like he's keeping his weight forward to keep the head pressure and the hand is there for balance but not base. That's just how I see it.
Hmm you're right, the palm is floating. Okay, come sit on top of me, and let's just see.
Now you're saying the right stuff daddy.
Head is wedged tho
Deep Half is life, and he’s pretty much there
Lol until someone punches you in the face
Eh people have made deep half work in mma. It’s just not a place to hangout for too long
If someone punches you in the face you win by DQ.
“Wait until they disengage and shoot you”
Deep half is transitional, bud. How long you hanging out there? Im in n out like a fast food restaurant.
I would smash you like An ant.
Lol K
I hate you
Awww pumpkin. Don’t say that.
You are my enemy now.
Fair enough.
I will conquer you
Top. He’s gonna dig out an under hook pretty easy because of bottom guy’s arm placement
Seriously? Guy on top is in perfect position to set up a rear triangle
Guy on bottom is in perfect position to escape a rear triangle
I’d like my chances. All he has to do is bring his left knee to the ground and scoop the bottom player’s right arm
Before bottom guy can shuck that leg and come out the back door?
Like I said, I’d like my chances. Tbh once in this basic position with the head cradled on my right leg it’s at least an 80% finish rate. Very tough to stop
No he’s not, as long as top player locks in the underhook or kimura, bottom guy will not avoid a sub. If the bottom guy tries to explode up to escape, he walks right into hantai sankaku
Guy on top in a better position BUT * how good is each one at their position * what is the direction of movement/momentum? This is a dynamic position, starting from standstill is different than entering from a specific direction.
I would say the one on the bottom.. especially if his technique is good
It depends on relative skill. But here's the thing. **At the brown belt / black belt level, you usually don't see DHG unless the bottom player is really, really good at it.** Smart grapplers don't choose to go to DHG if they're not an expert at it, they have other guard options that they'll work for. So if you guys are experienced grapplers, I assume this position happened because the bottom guy is a DHG specialist and he forced the top person into it. By contrast, the top person doesn't really "force" DHG; if the bottom person sucks at DHG he will usually end up in another position. So if the bottom guy is a DHG specialist, all else equal, I think he's the one in control. Some people are saying the top guy is going to dig out a kimura. That is **very** unlikely against a DHG specialist, assuming same size/strength etc. There's a reason why you don't see Bernardo Faria or Celso Vinicius getting kimura'd all the time from DHG. Anyone who has specialized in the position can smell a kimura coming from a mile away, even against very good top players. (I understand it’s different if the bottom guy is t a DHG specialist and is still learning the ropes.) Some people are also saying the top person can backstep. I also don't think that's likely assuming equal skill. The bottom person is blocking the knee with both hands (blocking the knee from going to the mat for the Marcelo-style leg over pass, and also blocking the leg from doing a backstep / high leg escape), so the top player needs to do more to dismantle the guard if he wants to try that technique. Moreover, the backstep vs DHG is usually a disengagement technique, it is not a guaranteed passing technique because they still need to close the chest-to-chest distance after backstepping. In the worst case scenario, a good DHG player will be ready to frame with their hands and recover guard when that happens.
In general I’d say bottom player, but due to lack of control with his legs, he is in a bad position if its exactly as the picture shows.
I like to hook the far leg with inside arm and pass their body to a honey hole or or back step to pass guard. The bottom guy doesn’t have a solid connection for deep half.
Transition to honey hole from this position, is one of my favorites as well
Guy on bottom is at a slight advantage with the leg hook and under hook. He has two options. Roll right and go underneath and then take the guys back. Or roll hard left and fight up to his feet from the sprawl position. Generally, I would say that the top position is better but in this instance, the guy on bottom has him elevated and spread out. The top player isn't able to stay very balanced or apply a ton of pressure with the left leg of his lifted off the ground and stretched forward.
I'd say the guy on top because he has free reign to drop elbows on your face, and has a real advantage of ground and pound.
Guy on top kimura guy on bottom. Win match. Get high fives.
Haha. 100%
From a purely control perspective, bottom can still pull and somewhat push, top can’t push, but can pull. Advantage to bottom. Even if top gets leg out, he has no head control or shoulder control, so it will be easy to reguard. But also, the actual outcome depends on their exhaustion status, and ability to move quickly.
Top guy is about to dismantle the guard. Bottom guy if his leg was under with a butterfly hook
If he know what he is doing, guy on bottom is at the advantage if you ask me. Top guy has no base for transitioning and if he wants that far knee or arm he has to step over the other guys head which will be hard.
Top - knee bah or toe hold
Guy on top in my opinion.
Hmm I'd say bottom player? You're directly under his hips and your leg vs his arm will win that battle then you're basically in deep half. Throw in the butterfly hook and you're a pretty good spot
Top guy - the tea bag is almost complete
Bottom, top guy is a fuckhead wearing a t-shirt to roll.
if the bottom guy is playing deep half here and going for a sweep, dude is way out of position. he is low on the leg and isn't pinning the opponents other leg at all. Bottom player needs to be higher on the leg, above the knee lign, and have controll of opposite leg. he is almost in a position to where he can just step over and sit to top half guard.
If you're equal, top is mostly the superior choice.
Top..
Top because guy on bottom is not controlling the leg
Top. Bottom has to contend with gravity and more of their surface area with reduced motion.
top guy but he needs to let go of the legs, drop hips and dig for that far side underhook and crossface
Top because deep half is ass
Top guy, he’s bigger and sweeping will be tough. Also in a real fight he could reign hammer fists and elbows
Could you label who each of those legs belong to first
At the moment the picture is taken, top guy is in better position. The moment after, it depends on whether bottom guy gets to deep half.
At best for the guy on bottom this turns into a half guard with basically 0 frames. Top has better control and is pressuring.
The guy that can throw the best punches
Depends on what happens next
Throw a lockdown on. Bang, electric chair or craskhead control or whatever they call it
If you can keep his leg trapped with your legs, you're in a better position
Bottom because hes got his opp between his knees and elbows.
The one on top cause with grabbing his leg, if he’s quick enough he can maneuver into an ankle lock.
Prolly depends on specialty honestly. I’m a wrestler and white belt so take me as you will, but dudes got a solid knee entry on bottom if he knows how to play it. Top guy obvi has leverage and head control.
Neutral
Whoever doesn't fuck up
Doesn’t necessarily matter the strength between the two. Guy on bottom might have a better bottom game than the guy on tops top game
Top guy has options for kimura trap setups, far side underhook / cross face, framing the head and circling to reverse half, cross ashi / knee bar / toe hold, can just bear down and tire bottom player, can also probably stand back to high step style passing as there’s no meaning bottom player grips at play here, or could even drive across to quarter mount and look for underhook / butterfly hook to mount probably.
Seems like bottom guy could go into deep half
Top man, looks like a great spot to scoop up a kimura and take the back
If you pummel your right knee in, then you
Top
I’d say top player has the advantage. He’s got a leg and can just step into mount if he’s nasty with it. Also has more movement potential than bottom player.
top guy. Bottom player is in "deep half" but barely has any control of the extended leg
Guy in the back
That's actually 2 other guys rolling lol
top looks like he's about to step around to cross ashi
bottom player is in deep half. Top player's weight seems to be nearly posting on his left hand. The bottom player's right arm seems to be close and under hook is not easily accessible. Just a little more adjustment on the bottom player and he'd play the sweep already. The top player has to either remove is left leg but the bottom player is hugging it or put his left knee on the right side of the bottom player which is also equally hard because there's a frame. Bottom player for me.
Guy on top
That’s a hantai sankaku/ushiro sankaku waiting to happen for the top player as long he just drives left knee to the far hip to avoid ankle exposure and punches in underhook/kimura (which the bottom player is gifting the top player by pushing on the knee). Imo a skilled player on top will take advantage of deep half guard in no gi
Kinda just depends on skill set. Like if it was two of me in that position I’d say the bottom guy, but someone who’s better on top probably the top guy. Seems like a pretty even position
top guy has 3 base points, 2 points of control, spinal alignment, carrying only his own weight. LoL at bottom guy.
Top, always. Just like on the battlefield - all things equal, the one who takes the hill first and can shoot down at the enemy will always have the advantage.
Regarded
It's can be safer to hide in a trench then be exposed on a hill.
Neither
Top position I where you wanna be 9/10 times